The email was never sent, which had some secrecy advantages, but it meant that Petraeus had a shared gmail account with that woman, Ms. Broadwell.
FBI investigators were able to use the data trail left when Jill Kelley, a 37-year-old Florida socialite who was family friends with Gen Petraeus, received emails allegedly warning her to stay away from the former CIA director. The data trail revealed that the emails were being sent by Mrs Broadwell from an anonymous email account, information which eventually brought the affair to light.Did Broadwell send the "harassing" emails from the account she shared with Petraeus?
If Petraeus had ended the affair, shouldn't he have deleted the shared account? Or could Broadwell have gotten in there first and excluded him? Maybe it was her gmail account, and she'd added him as an authorized user, giving her the power to cut off his access, with all his old letters in the draft folder, and with her ability to send email for whatever crazy purpose crossed her mind. But what did Broadwell think she was doing? Was she just an out-of-control, I-will-not-be-ignored ex-lover, or is there something more nefarious and political going on?
Feel free to brainstorm.
Posts
112 comments:
Then there's that video tape of Broadwell in Denver talking about the secret CIA detention cells and how that is what, in reality, instigated the Benghazi attack.
It's as if she had insider information. ]-/
They could have commented here, too--the FBI would have never caught on. As long as they made an on-topic little reference, of course. Or just said it was Nixon's or Bush's or Republican's, et.al.'s fault.
I'll pay more attention to those Arabic messages/links appearing here in the future.
Iowahawk
Spoiler alert: the next 4 years are not going to turn out well.
It's positively Mandarin. Not to say Manchurian.
This has Axelrod written all over it - he specialized in sexual scandals to clear Obama's way.
Was she just an out-of-control, I-will-not-be-ignored ex-lover
Yes
or is there something more nefarious and political going on?
No. Not with Broadwell and Kelley. That's just a catfight.
The easiest guess is probably the most plausible: Two (and I guess, now 4) people were involved in affairs they wished to keep secret, took some really lame measures to hide it, and probably broke some laws along the way, destroying their families, and hurting their children. When the authorities found out, they delayed action for political expediency. Benghazi came around, but probably had little to do with either affair, although it appears Broadwell may have benefited from some "pillow talk."
Of course it is easy to construct or imagine some far more nefarious scenarios, which is a risk people in high places take when they mess around.
Feel free to brainstorm.
Is the NYT on he case yet? Heard they need new readers.
I would say that she was career building and that the email account was leverage for her career.
Why should we believe it was over?
Did Broadwell send the "harassing" emails from the account she shared with Petraeus?
The FBI says Broadwell sent the emails from a gmail account she shared with her husband. Really? What if Broadwell's husband went looking in "sent meassages" for something? What if Kelley replied? Was she not worried about her husband seeing her harassing emails to Kelley? Maybe he's not much of an emailer?
Odd. And I still want to know about the process the FBI used to access the emails. Is there a warrant? Was this Patriot Act wiretapping access? I'd hate to think the FBI can just subpoena emails from Google whenever an agent with a complaining friend asks.
Axelrod does seems mentally (psychologically) unwell. With all his digging and exposing of divorce and sex scandals, his soul must be shriveled and dark by now. Ugh. The "my precious" creature comes to my mind.
Off topic: John Nolte at Big Hollywood reviews old movie "Red Dust" just out on DVD -Clark Gable, Jean Harlow and Mary Astor - brilliant casting in a fantastic, very steamy and very sexy movie...adultery, protitution and the alpha male on a plantation in the jungle / rain forest ...
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/11/12/Red-dust-review-nolte
This was also the way that Blomqvist and Lisbeth Salander communicated in The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest. Although in that case, she was the hacker, not the hackee.
Hey....Look over here. Petraeus is a cheater. Hey Look over here..the general who replaced him is a cheater.
Does anybody remember American People died in Benghazi?? (Who cares...sex sells) This is sounding more and more fishy everyday. Read between the lines.
Did Broadwell send the "harassing" emails from the account she shared with Petraeus?
Maybe, and it does seem likely, but you can also have your Gmail forwarded to another email account. I'd say it's also likely that she was having all her email forwarded to another account, so it wasn't hard for the FBI to track messages between Broadwell and Petraeus back to her Gmail account.
Why didn't he make sure it was deleted? Don't know. It probably was her account, so either he asked her to delete it, and she didn't, or he overlooked it.
Her motive? Maybe she is crazy/obsessive, but I bet she also wanted a paper trail so that she wouldn't be a scapegoat in the scandal. She had enough proof so that Petraeus just couldn't dismiss the affair as heresay on her part.
And people used to be worried about losing data in the digital age! Now it seems we should be more fearful of data that can never, ever be expunged from the interwebs.
I didn't actually click 'send' can now joint the ranks of the great excuses.
Does anybody remember American People died in Benghazi?? (Who cares...sex sells) This is sounding more and more fishy everyday. Read between the lines..
Garage Mahal recently accused Darrell Issa of running a circus in his Benghazi investigations. But I don't think so garage. I think the right answers will be asked and perhaps not answered. But the truth will out eventually.
"shouldn't he have deleted the acccount"
Ann, I don't think you can really delete that stuff. Or so I've been told by my tech people - they've been able to recover stuff I deleted weeks earlier.
Petraeus' testimony, should he ever give it, must scare the hell out of the Obamathugs for them to do this thorough a character assassination.
Why isn't the media reporting the gun running that was going on over there???
Somebody ordered a pizza to Broadwell's house while the FBI was there searching her house. Investigators didn’t answer when the deliveryman rung the doorbell.
LOL
I'm assuming she had more than one email account. Most people do.
"Here's The Saddest Detail So Far In The Petraeus Affair...
Broadwell is married, with two children. She lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. On Friday afternoon, when the story broke, the usual scrum of television cameras and reporters converged on her house.
Amid the bustle, New York Times reporters Scott Shane and Sheryl Gay Stolberg noted the following:
Written in the family’s driveway in gold-colored chalk was a child’s inscription:
“Dad ♥s Mom.”
Well, at least the lovebirds don't have to be so creative now.
Reminds me of a scene from scene:
Any time you try a decent crime, you got 50 ways you can fuck up! If you think of 25 of them then you're a genius. And you ain't no genius!
Body Heat
This is all coming out to make people forget what really happened over there. Wake up people...they are pulling the wool over your eyes
Oh, wonder whether something more nefarious is going on?
1. These stories do seem to take all eyes pretty much off Benghazi itself ... LOOK, OVER HERE beautiful women, powerful men .... cookies...
2. I just read that when Clinton was President he replaced a lot of military General officers.... Could the President's people be behind it all? Exposing these lame-o middle school email romances, complete with cat fights, brings down and totally discredits some important officers...... Oh, I should have warned you of my conspiracy theory tendencies...oops. That little communist, Panetta, moving awfully fast on this, isn't he?
I tried warning everyone about Obama's secret army of seductresses back in 2009.
I suspect that this explains Chief Justice Roberts' reversal on Obamacare, too.
E-mails must be driving Hallmark out of business. Why not buy a romantic card with feelings written by a poet complete with an embedded chip playing "You've Lost That Loving Feeling."
Speaking of embedded, the commentators glibly speak of Broadwell as embedded with Petraeus in Afghanistan.
The bitter truth is that this intentional disclosure is designed to nail the military for the "failure in Afghanistan."
How many boys are headed out to be the last human fodder stocking the Taliban''s live fire target range in an area of mountain valleys of no use to anyone except American politicians getting votes?
Yep, Paula's a bunny boiler. She identified her biggest perceived threat but looks like her plan backfired.
It's odd that we know about this "drop box" detail and we still don't know what Obama was doing the night of the Benghazi raid.
As for this:
" FBI investigators were able to use the data trail left when Jill Kelley, a 37-year-old Florida socialite who was family friends with Gen Petraeus, received emails allegedly warning her to stay away from the former CIA director. "
I still want to know if the emails warned her to stay away from Petraeus, or if they warned her to stay away from "my guy".
Did Kelley know to whom the emails referred?
Maguro says no, but I've only ever seen innuendo either way, no direct quotes.
It sounds like she was a woman with a lot going on.
Obama's first term is off to a stellar start.
that woman
Ah, now she's become that woman. Plus, nefarious. Wow! Wasn't there a cartoon or comic character from the 1960s or 1970s that used the word "nefarious" a lot?
Despite all his bravery and accomplishments, I think Patreaus was over compensating for his small stature. Short man's disease it's called. In one picture, Broadwell looks taller than him. A little guy trying to re-affirm his masculinity in many way through out his life. Mostl for good, but his actions with "that woman" were certainly risky.
Obama's first term is off to a stellar start.
Well his first term certainly did get off to a rocky start with the free-fall economy and all. Good thing he keeps a cool head. I trust him in a crisis. Of course, you never know.
So many shiny objects.
Did Romney really win the election?
Oh brother, traditionalguy, my nephew in the USMC heading over there as we speak. Not good. Especially after reading some Michael Yon post about stuck in the mud. http://www.michaelyon-online.com/stuck-in-the-mud.htm
Patreaus is 5'10" according to the Web.
Soon ya'll learn Broadwell had her trademark arms sleeve tattooed in homage to Petraeus... with invisible spy ink.
Why didn't Obama do a twofer and say, "I've asked Gen Petraeus to resign over the bad intelligence that lead to four deaths in Benghazi"?
That would have been the smart move.
Good thing he keeps a cool head. I trust him in a crisis.
Don't confuse his deer in the headlights look for being cool.
I'm unimpressed myself. He hasn't demonstrated to me he's capable of much other than giving a speech. YMMV.
Broadwell, bunny boiler, ha!
Did not even write the biography. Drudge links to interview with the ghostwriter.
That and the fact that an unpublished writer is embedded to write General's biography.
Ha.
These affairs have been hiding in plain sight. Not only that, but everyone involved seems to have been behaving like middle-schoolers. Weird.
"I trust him in a crisis."
Ambassador Stevens is unavailable for comment.
When historic disasters are caused by minor human failings, I bet it always seems unlikely at the time. People probably always say, "no, we won't this little thing bring us down. We'll gain our footing before it goes too far." And, then down they go. Yes, the next four years will be fascinating.
wendybar said...
Why isn't the media reporting the gun running that was going on over there???
Why would they? They ignored the Obama admistration sponsored gun walking that was going on over here!
Good thing he keeps a cool head.
It's easy to keep a cool head when you don't give a shit about anybody else.
Patreaus is 5'10" according to the Web
Maybe she had on heels. (I come from a family where the shortest male, my father, was 5'11" and the next shortest 6'1". 5'10" is short to me as I'm 5" above that.) Patreaus seems to have a slight build also. Broadwell looked like she might have him beat in the "guns" department.
Did Wendybar really ask :
"Why isn't the media reporting the gun running that was going on over there???
11/13/12 8:42 AM"
Um, this is the media we are talking about, right? You aware of the media's deep and abidingly protective love of the President, no? Think Mama Grizly but with printing presses...
It's easy to keep a cool head when you don't give a shit about anybody else
You must be projecting.
There's no fool like an old fool.
I think Inga is Broadwell.
Could you imagine the huge foreheads that would occur if Paula Broadwell had Paul Begala's children?
Maybe Hat boy?
Ruth Anne, LOL! You got the wit, girl!
Good thing the generals chose red-blooded American girls to bed.
No wait. The Kelley sisters are from Lebanon....
The Oxford dictionary made GIF the word of the year over omnishambles. That was before this scandal. None of this make the President look good, but for that matter none of it makes the FBI, CIA, Attorney General, Afghan military command, and Florida socialites look good. I can live with widespread corruption but who knew stupidity and venality were this pervasive.....On the bright side, none of the various actors involved look like they have connections to Al Queda, but some of those terrorists are really hunky and one or two might turn up in the email accounts......Actually the best case analysis is that this is all part of some clever scheme hatched by Axelrod. The more likely explanation is that this is a cascade of blunders by clumsy people and that there will be more to come.
It's nice to have a tidy/untidy scandal to warm our hands over as we face a winter with increasing fuel prices, fewer jobs, higher prices overall, the dancing vagina's birth control to finance and, in the case of NY and NJ, scarce shelter, fuel and food.
It's the culture, stupid!
Someone on PJMedia (Victor Davis Hansen?) suggests that all of what alis America is a result of years of destruction of America's core cultural tenets.
If you don't lie, cheat or steal you can't get caught lieing, cheating or stealing (though one thinks Axelrod & Co. could make up a pretty strong body of circumstantial evidence that you did) - or philandering.
Unfortunately, self-denial and personal responibility for one's actions was one of the first tenets to disappear from favor in our culture.
Benghazi.
All these column inches and snark and titillating oh my's and Benghazi gets buried by the MSM?
And the most transparent administration evah doesn't have any one at the FBI and the DOJ?
Dods ANYBODY here (garage? Ritmo?) believe that Holder knew and did not tell Barry? He didn't think it worth the boss's golf time to bother his little brain with a heads up on something going on with Petraeus? Or Allen?
Me? I want to know why the United States did not send support on the spot to help our men and women in Benghazi as they were under fire and dead or dying.
"Ann, I don't think you can really delete that stuff. Or so I've been told by my tech people - they've been able to recover stuff I deleted weeks earlier."
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but I'm referring to Broadwell's continued ability to use the account or his own ability to use it. You can cut that off. Presumably, you can get it back through Google somehow. But if I had a shared account that I used with a lover who was no longer someone I could trust, I would do what I could to shut him out.
Now, what I'm speculating is that she got there first and she cut him out, then had sole control of the once-joint account.
Opus #6: You forgot "not that there's anything wrong with that" as to the Kelley woman being Lebanese.
I am with you, mr conserve liberty' regarding core cultural tenets. Also bill whittle, over there at pjtv, talked about how self government requires virtue in the people. Hmmm, seem to be a mite short on that in our darling culture.
Um, so I wonder how those secession petitions are going? Ha ha.
Not wool, wendybar; it's chintz, with a side of fireworks show for big-time distraction.
Now, what I'm speculating is that she got there first and she cut him out, then had sole control of the once-joint account
But why assume she used the same fake account?
Why not assume she used another fake account?
"Somebody ordered a pizza to Broadwell's house while the FBI was there searching her house. Investigators didn’t answer when the deliveryman rung the doorbell."
1. Most likely prankster: Broadwell! Don't pizza delivery places check the phone number? Broadwell was away, but probably had her cell phone. I suggest the FBI get right on this.
2. Now we know the official FBI approach to the prankster pizza problem. Don't answer the door.
You must be projecting.
Does it bother you that I don't care about you? Not projecting, jus recognizing in Obama the same traits I see in myself. But, I care about some people. Very few have a "(D)" after their name.
We could get int the old what's worse, apathy or hate. That's why I don't hate you, or garage. It's too much work and effort, plus apathy's worse. I just don't care.
"Could you imagine the huge foreheads that would occur if Paula Broadwell had Paul Begala's children?"
I know! We've been talking about Paula's Broadhead here at Meadhouse.
It's a receding hairline issue in part. I get a Mitch Daniels vibe from Broadwell. Big arms. Big sex drive. High testosterone?
Brainstorming would have been necessary for Kelley to send/recieve 25,000 in 2 years. That's 34 a day.
"Ah, now she's become that woman."
It was a Monica Lewinsky joke.
BTW, the Lewinsky scandal began with a Paula.
BTW - there's a picture of Patreaus with Obama on Drudge today. Obama's 6'1.5". Patreaus looks to be 5-6 inches shorter. (In height, that is.)
Glenn Greenwaldpoints to several reports, one which says the weird emails to Kelley only obliquely mentioned Petraeus. So Kelley didn't know they were about him.
Also, the FBI friend was a woman, who managed to get the matter investigated. It was the lead investigator who started sending shirtless photos to Kelley. So I had that wrong.
It's just a lucky thing for Bill that he was only the president, and not high ranking military officer.
@ DADvocate
"This is the dawning of
"The Age of Nefarious,
"Age of Nefarious!
"Nefarious!
"Nefarious!"
Apologies to the Fifth Dimension.
I'm not a Greenwald fan, but he has a huge audience in the media.
At least maybe he'll influence someone to ask about warrants. Maybe someone will report what the applications said, when they were filed, etc.
The thing gets weirder and weirder.
And I think Rich B has a point about Axelrod.
rhhardin said...
So many shiny objects.
Did Romney really win the election?
Funny, that.
wendybar said...
Hey....Look over here. Petraeus is a cheater. Hey Look over here..the general who replaced him is a cheater.
Does anybody remember American People died in Benghazi?? (Who cares...sex sells) This is sounding more and more fishy everyday. Read between the lines.
This will be what unwinds it all. The Lefty media can't resist the sex angle.
PS Love it that all leslyn can say is, "Move along. Nothing to see".
Oh wait, I'm wrong.
The NYT is clear the "friend" was the shirtless man.
Ms. Kelley, a volunteer with wounded veterans and military families, brought her complaint to a rank-and-file agent she knew from a previous encounter with the F.B.I. office, the official also said. That agent, who had previously pursued a friendship with Ms. Kelley and had earlier sent her shirtless photographs of himself, was “just a conduit” for the complaint, he said. He had no training in cybercrime, was not part of the cyber squad handling the case and was never assigned to the investigation.
So why would you complain about weird emails to a guy who "pursued a friendship" and sent you shirtless photos?
This should end the discussion about men and women serving together in the military. Clearly women are the more aggressive of our species, I say we let them do all the fighting from now on.
It was a Monica Lewinsky joke.
"That woman" is one of those phrases that immediately tells you something about that woman and the speakers impression of that woman. (Even without Lewinsky. That use of "that woman" predates her.) I almost always use "that woman" in a joking sense. Got that?
That woman is Irene Adler.
I suppose it is too late to ban all women from military installations?
That woman is Irene Adler
That woman or "The" woman?
@phx,
I think you are projecting your normal response onto DADvocate by claiming he is projecting.
Apologies to the Fifth Dimension.
Why apologize? That song sucks.
To Sherlock Holmes, she is always the woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name. In his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her sex.
PS Only because he never met Althouse.
Let's consider these events in light of some truths our modern age insists are certain,and to which we must bow...
- It is unrealistic to expect people to say no to their sexual appetites, so we should pass out "protection," not stress self control and accountability.
- People's sexual interests belong totally to the private sphere, they really have no bearing on how people work together (say in the military), or on evaluating someone's fitness for a job or public office.
Instead, I offer what I think is an iron law:
Sooner or later, despite all efforts to the contrary, reality always reasserts itself.
I think you are projecting your normal response onto DADvocate by claiming he is projecting.
And I think you're projecting your projection of me projecting my projections of DADvocate onto ...
oh, never fucking mind.
What's with the Kelly woman? What the hell is an unpaid "social organizer?" Pimp? Hooker? Shuffleboard impresario?
Why are these third rate people running around with four star generals in the first place?
Could Kelly be an agent of some kind whose job was to sow confusion and destruction? Whose agent?
Why are they raiding Broadwell's house if they have determined that there was no crime or security leak?
Why did the FBI fail to tell WH about the investigation? (Easy: to keep a lid on it until after the election.)
Did WH really not know about this? At least two Republican congressmen seem to have known. It seems incredible that WH would not, even if not told officially.
Just what is the status of FBI "report" on Bengazhi? Does FBI have any credibility left on this?
Why would FBI even bother to investigate a bunch of pissant emails to a insignificant poseur like Kelley? Was it really just because she knew some FBI guy who had the hots for her? I smell setup.
I thought the FBI used pizza delivery vans for clandestine surveillance.
@phx,
Exactly.
; )
"The email was never sent, which had some secrecy advantages, but it meant that Petraeus had a shared gmail account with that woman, Ms. Broadwell."
Clinton had ties that Monica gave him and wearing them had significance to her... "When I see you wearing this tie I'll know that I am close to your heart."
Sharing a g-mail account is so pedestrian... were is the romance?
Feel free to brainstorm.
It seems to me the most likely answer is that the affair was not over when the emails ocurred, and that they were driven by Broadwell's jealousy. Perhaps Petraeus broke it off later, or maybe only when he learned of the investigation. The details don't really matter much to the bigger picture.
The question of whether there is something political going on depends on what you mean.
Did the administration manage the resignation's timing for policial reasons? Obviously.
Did the administration use this as a pretext to weaken and excise someone they thought was leaking against the administrations interest? Maybe to likely.
Is the administration using this pretext to actively suppress testimony? Unlikely, I don't see how it has that effect.
Did the administration concoct the affair to suppress testimony about Benghazi? Hard to believe.
Fr Martin Fox said...
Let's consider these events in light of some truths our modern age insists are certain,and to which we must bow...
- It is unrealistic to expect people to say no to their sexual appetites, so we should pass out "protection," not stress self control and accountability.
- People's sexual interests belong totally to the private sphere, they really have no bearing on how people work together (say in the military), or on evaluating someone's fitness for a job or public office.
Instead, I offer what I think is an iron law:
Sooner or later, despite all efforts to the contrary, reality always reasserts itself.
How do you reconcile this last comment with celibate priesthood?
Brainstorm.
Ruth Ann @ 9:13
Benghazi has legs...
Says Rush.
Binders full of women...
"Generals are taking orders from their privates..."
Rush is on a roll.
More texting, less emailing.
Petraeus stultus est.
Feminae semper periculosae sunt. Insanae quoque.
NPR had quite an elaborate account of this affair yesterday, and I racked my brain to remember them reporting ANYTHING like that detail relating to Benghazi.
That right there tells me this is meant to deflect and muddle up, defuse and generally make it so noisy that everyone throws up their hands and moves on.
Meanwhile, an American citizen's rights to expression were CONDEMNED by the President of the United States, the first thing Thrown to the barbarians as if it were Nothing.
Don't remember detailed reporting on that by NPR either. Shut up, everyone, and more along.
Ptewy.
I never noticed until this scandal broke, but Petraeus has terrible teeth. Is the military dental plan modeled on the U.K.'s?
Marshal:
Please explicate what reality you assert celibacy cannt permanently hold at bay. I can surmise, but it's you point, so I will let you make it yourself.
Fr Martin Fox said...
Marshal:
Please explicate what reality you assert celibacy cannt permanently hold at bay. I can surmise, but it's you point, so I will let you make it yourself
You seem to refer to sexual attraction as the "iron law" of "reality asserting itself". If this is an iron law how are celibate priests defying it?
Hmmmm, Lebanon.
Marshall:
I guess I wasn't clear. The notion that sexual desire cannot be resisted is not my belief, but a "law" our secular society insists is true.
Whatever happened to good old PGP?
It is a free, probably unbreakable, easy to use, encryption.
Surely the head of the CIA knows about encryption, no?
John Henry
Fr Martin Fox said...
Marshall:
I guess I wasn't clear. The notion that sexual desire cannot be resisted is not my belief, but a "law" our secular society insists is true.
Ok, I thought you were promoting sexual attraction as a natural law.
And the reality in conflict is...that people can separate the personal and public spheres?
If you don't lie, cheat or steal you can't get caught lieing, cheating or stealing (though one thinks Axelrod & Co. could make up a pretty strong body of circumstantial evidence that you did) - or philandering.
Life is no fun without lying, cheating and stealing.
"So why would you complain about weird emails to a guy who "pursued a friendship" and sent you shirtless photos?"
Because that's normal in some circles. It means, he cares.
Who knew government work was so much fun? Actually I've just been looking at the lives of Allen Dulles DCI and Mary Bancroft and they had a heck of a time back in the 30's and 40's. Everybody was having affairs and the homosexuals had the best networks. So this kind of behavior is normal and in the finest traditions of spy craft.
However, imagine if all this had come out before the election? People might have thought Obama's liberal administration was encouraging moral laxity in the military. Still, since all of this stuff was probably common knowledge why is it being brought out now? Put the military in its place? Distract from foreign policy catastrophes? Yes and yes.
I'm still hopeful that the truth about Benghazi comes out. What was Stevens up to? Why was he targeted? Why was he abandoned by our government? ETC.
Marshall:
Well, there are a lot of realities being ignored in the prevailing "enlightened" mindset--and they will re-assert themselves in years--or days!--to come. That was my broad point. I intended folks to reflect on that, and see the individual instances for themselves.
So, for example, the notion that our prohibitions on things like fornication and adultery don't really matter much for social order or public policy.
Such moral strictures, while obviously identified with the Bible, were likewise found in moral codes that had no connection to the Bible. Where did those commandments come from?
They may have been given by God to those non-Chosen People. But they may also have arisen from human experience. In the end, the latter answer doesn't preclude the former.
In short, I think the 21st century will be a huge vindication for Natural Law.
Alex said...
If you don't lie, cheat or steal you can't get caught lieing, cheating or stealing (though one thinks Axelrod & Co. could make up a pretty strong body of circumstantial evidence that you did) - or philandering.
Life is no fun without lying, cheating and stealing.
I take a different point of view. I remember garage stating that lying is a perfectly acceptable trait when dealing with people.
I prefer honesty. One reason is that prison orange isn't my color. Cheating leaves you open to cheating in return and then you won't have recourse to complain. As for lying. I prefer to tell the truth. It isn't my fault that I tell the truth in such a way that I'm not believed.
Feel free to brainstorm.
At Althouse? Not likely with the Althouse lemmings.
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