Althouse: Should Scotland leave the U.K.?

October 15, 2012

Should Scotland leave the U.K.?

There will be a referendum in August 2014... and Scots as young as 16 will get to vote.

79 comments:

mesquito said...: Where's the "it don't make a shit because they'll still be owned by Brussels" button?; 10/15/12, 7:56 PM
edutcher said...: Scotland has more people on the dole than working.

Going it alone doesn't seem like a swell idea under those conditions.; 10/15/12, 7:58 PM
Erik said...: Who knows? All I know is that IF IT'S NOT SCOTTISH, IT'S CRAP!; 10/15/12, 8:03 PM
Hagar said...: Scotland and Wales are both talking about secession, and I think the Scots are the ones that demand that England continue to support them, even after independence.; 10/15/12, 8:04 PM
YoungHegelian said...: What you should really poll on is the number of English who would be happy to see them go!

The English and the Welsh have more than had their fill of the Scots' belly-aching.; 10/15/12, 8:04 PM
Methadras said...: FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!; 10/15/12, 8:12 PM
Kev said...: (the other kev)

And then, they'll join the EU and make Ireland look like Switzerland.; 10/15/12, 8:13 PM
Wince said...: "FREEDOM!"

Actually, one of the funny things on Bill Maher's show...

Mel Gibson's neck tattoo of Mel Gibson "pushing a Jew down the stairs".; 10/15/12, 8:14 PM
Michael K said...: Scotland was the location of the English Enlightenment. It had the Lunar Society, Lister was a Scot and discovered antisepsis. Jenner was a Scot and discovered vaccination. Darwin's father was a Scot and Jenner's partner in medical practice. The list of Scottish scientists is long and includes James Clerke Maxwell of Edinburgh. He was a child prodigy whose first presentation to the Royal Society was given at age 14.

Now, the Scots would starve if they were independent. All initiative has been destroyed by the welfare system; 10/15/12, 8:18 PM
furious_a said...: Scotland has more people on the dole than working.

Going it alone doesn't seem like a swell idea under those conditions.

They also have a claim on North Sea oil, so they migh make a go of it for a while.; 10/15/12, 8:18 PM
Jason (the commenter) said...: I'm part Scottish and I want Scotland to be independent, but it's more out of Scottish spite than pride.; 10/15/12, 8:20 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Methadras is having an organic reaction ;); 10/15/12, 8:30 PM
Quaestor said...: The Scots will stay in the Union for the same reason they joined it -- money. If there's one thing the Scots never mastered it's statecraft; an independent Scotland would be another EU basket case.; 10/15/12, 8:32 PM
sane_voter said...: Scotland leaving the UK will save England and Scotland.

Scotland will have to drop their socialist tendencies to survive independence, and England will be much more conservative without the Scottish millstone around their neck.; 10/15/12, 8:32 PM
edutcher said...: Michael K said...

Scotland was the location of the English Enlightenment. It had the Lunar Society, Lister was a Scot and discovered antisepsis. Jenner was a Scot and discovered vaccination. Darwin's father was a Scot and Jenner's partner in medical practice. The list of Scottish scientists is long and includes James Clerke Maxwell of Edinburgh. He was a child prodigy whose first presentation to the Royal Society was given at age 14.

There was also Burke and Hare.

furious_a said...

Scotland has more people on the dole than working.

Going it alone doesn't seem like a swell idea under those conditions.

They also have a claim on North Sea oil, so they migh make a go of it for a while.

Suuure.

Just like people who hit the lottery.; 10/15/12, 8:35 PM
mythusmage said...: I voted yes, and if you go back far enough I am Scottish.

If you go back even further I'm Irish.

If you go back far enough one of my ancestors bonked a neanderthal.; 10/15/12, 8:37 PM
clint said...: Back when I saw Braveheart, I would have eagerly voted for Scottish independence.

Now that I understand the reality of the failed welfare state of Scotland... I shudder at the thought of an independent Scotland.

Re: sane_voter...

If only. Recent European history doesn't seem to suggest that failed states drop their socialist tendencies just because it might be necessary for their survival. And I'd really, really hate to see Scotland go the way of Greece. It might have an impact on the quality of their whiskey exports! (I managed to get myself down to just one exclamation point, there, but only with great difficulty.); 10/15/12, 8:38 PM
Tim said...: "All initiative has been destroyed by the welfare system"

If true, then nothing would be better than to end the welfare and force them to support themselves.; 10/15/12, 8:39 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I voted yes, and if you go back far enough I am Scottish.
If you go back even further I'm Irish.

Thats a bunch of malarkey ;); 10/15/12, 8:40 PM
Leland said...: I was in Scotland earlier this year, and my driver mentioned something about this (though he said the vote would occur this year). I asked my manager, who lives in Scotland and is a native Scot. He said he doesn't see it likely. Both my manager and I think, with the current economic problems in Europe and the world; it would be crazy to pull away from the UK at this time.; 10/15/12, 8:42 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I was doing my best Joe Biden there..; 10/15/12, 8:42 PM
ricpic said...: I belong to Glasga
Dear ol' Glasga town
Well what's the matta wi' Glasga
For it's goin' 'roon and 'roon
I'm only a common ol' working chap as anyone here can see
But when I ge' a couple a' drinks on a Sa'urday
Glasga belongs to me; 10/15/12, 8:47 PM
YoungHegelian said...: You know what's the difference between a Scotsman & a coconut?
.
.
.
.
.
You can get a drink out of a coconut!; 10/15/12, 8:53 PM
Quaestor said...: Scotland will have to drop their socialist tendencies to survive independence...

Agreed, that would be the logical policy of an independent Scotland, but I doubt many Scots would see it that way. The Scots have a strongly romantic bent that has clouded their national character for centuries. It makes for moving poetry and rousing traditions, but romanticism makes a poor foundation for sound fiscal policy. For all their vaunted hard-nosed practicality the Scots have never, ever been able to govern themselves on a basis of practicality.

The SNP socialists always refer to the North Sea oil in terms likes it's some kind of El Dorado -- cradle to grave welfare, a high-salary job with two months paid holiday per annum, and a paid-up council tract house to boot! The problem is the SNP wants to nationalize what they see as their share of the reserves (most of which is beneath international waters) In essence they want to emulate Mexico and Venezuela.

Here's the key to the situation: whenever you hear some SNP yobbo sing the praises of Scotland's oil, just think Darien and you'll see the future clearly.; 10/15/12, 8:56 PM
Pettifogger said...: Others here have said it, but the Scots would not make it as an independent country. The North Sea oil might help them be like Nigeria. My ancestors left Scotland before the American revolution, and I'm gad of it.; 10/15/12, 9:17 PM
aka John said...: No offense, but who cares? We've got enough problems in the US without worrying about the scottish redneck welfare state's status in the British Commonwealth.; 10/15/12, 9:23 PM
Titus said...: Scotland should leave.

The Washington Post video on Wisconsin is awful. They make cheeseheads look like a bunch of dumb fucks. Only a fellow cheesehead can do that.

tits.; 10/15/12, 9:25 PM
Eric said...: Scotland has more people on the dole than working.

I've read estimates that 90% of what passes for the Scottish economy is driven by transfer payments from London. It's not just that half of them don't work; it's that the half who do work either work directly for the government or in fulfilling demand driven by government programs.

Maybe the idea is to join the euro and have the Germans pay for everything.

They also have a claim on North Sea oil, so they migh make a go of it for a while.

North Sea oil production isn't what it was. That won't save them.; 10/15/12, 9:26 PM
Methadras said...: Are you Mary, Queen of Scots? I am...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwTqC2T6q4E; 10/15/12, 9:27 PM
Henry said...: I don't suppose they're gunning for a self-governing British Crown Dependency. That's as exotic as my heritage gets.; 10/15/12, 9:28 PM
Methadras said...: Beware the Kamikaze Scotsmen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es0t50H44IE&feature=related; 10/15/12, 9:29 PM
cubanbob said...: Scotland is to the UK what Quebec is to Canada. They will vote to leave in large numbers but never in large enough numbers. Who gonna pay for the welfare?; 10/15/12, 9:36 PM
Hugh Walter said...: As far as I know the oil in the North Sea is fast running out, as is the gas (that's 'propane' to you) they haven't burnt-off. Soon the Uk will be importing more gas from the continent than it produces and that'll be coming into Fawley or Felixtowe, not Falkirk!!

They can't afford to run those bits of the British Armed Forces that speak with a Scottish accent, will have to create a national TV station/broadcaster out of nothing, as the BBC won't braodcast over the border to people who aren't paying the licence fee, will lose a tax/welfare balance in their favour of something like £7,000 per head ($10K)...I could go on until the election in two years, without repeating myself.

Yet they think they'd like to keep the Monarch? Well, it was their king who united the crowns, if they want to let us go free - as an Englishman, can I say thanks dudes.

Does this mean I get to help rebuild Hadrien's Wall, so we can keep them up there out of the way while we listen to them starve!; 10/15/12, 9:37 PM
madAsHell said...: Trainspotting.

The Full Monty.

These fuggers ain't got enough to do!!; 10/15/12, 9:41 PM
Gospace said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 10/15/12, 9:43 PM
Gospace said...: Bad typo in post before...

Pettifogger said...
Others here have said it, but the Scots would not make it as an independent country. The North Sea oil might help them be like Nigeria. My ancestors left Scotland before the American revolution, and I'm gad of it.

**********
If your ancestors are similar to my ancestors, they didn't LEAVE Scotland, they were kicked out of Scotland, cast out of the Highlands to Prince Edward Island
or Georgia. (Two sets of Scottish ancestors, one from each spot...)

Having said that, what happens in Scotland and the U.K. happens there. At this point, I don't much care. But I do find the liberal position on independence for ethnic enclaves laughable. Everyone is entitled to Independence- except Taiwan. Which is independent...; 10/15/12, 9:45 PM
Rusty said...: Really. Who cares.; 10/15/12, 9:54 PM
Jim Howard said...: I'm retired US Air Force, and I've been reading about how this would affect the RAF.

Apparently they are working out how many 'fast jets', transports, etc would be transferred to the Scot Air Force from the RAF.

It's not clear to me if the RAF will have to vacate the several RAF bases in Scotland, or if they'll stay on as 'guests'.; 10/15/12, 9:56 PM
Michael K said...: "I've read estimates that 90% of what passes for the Scottish economy is driven by transfer payments from London. It's not just that half of them don't work; it's that the half who do work either work directly for the government or in fulfilling demand driven by government programs."

It isn't just Scotland. The only part of England that has a positive GDP is the area of Greater London in southeast England. The rest is living off London. The midland cities have social pathologies that look very much like US central cities, except the perpetrators are white.; 10/15/12, 9:58 PM
Anonymous said...: My forebearers were once described a a Sett of the most lowest vilest crew breathing - Scotch Irish Presbyterians from the North of Ireland. They came to America rather than returning to Scotland, so as far as I am concerned they are on their on; 10/15/12, 10:09 PM
BarryD said...: Scotland should break away from the UK, and then deal with its problems. Maybe it could become a business-friendly place with minimal welfare. It would probably have to.

There's something about independence that might inspire people to be, well, more independent.

At least they couldn't blame the Brits for their problems forever (the Brits deserve a good deal of blame for a great many things, but it doesn't help the Scots any to dwell on centuries-old grievances).; 10/15/12, 10:19 PM
BarryD said...: Also, between single malt whisky, the Scottish Round Action, and plaid, I'd say that there are still good reasons for Scotland.; 10/15/12, 10:20 PM
Tim said...: Voted Yes.

Partially Scottish.

But I think, as the English taxpayer subsidized the Scottish, they should succeed from the UK, and then fail.

Nothing cures idiot Socialism faster than the money drying up.

Might increase the cost of my single-malts though...; 10/15/12, 10:40 PM
Geoff Matthews said...: A lot of good points were made here. Scotland does have too much dependency on transfer payments, too much yobbish behavior, too many regulations, and too high of taxes to survive on their own.
Like Quebec, they'll make enough noise to be a pain in the @$$, but not enough to actually leave. They won't vote for independence, and that's too bad, because I do believe that independence would be the sure fire way for them to get their affairs in order.; 10/15/12, 10:50 PM
Gahrie said...: I voted yes, and if you go back far enough I am Scottish.
If you go back even further I'm Irish.

I read somewhere that at some point in history the Scots and Irish basically changed places. Is this true?; 10/15/12, 11:10 PM
xnar said...: I'll have my scotch neat.; 10/16/12, 12:00 AM
furious_a said...: The Scots will stay in the Union for the same reason they joined it -- money.

The Limbo is a Scottish dance, invented by Scotsmen shimmying under the pay-toilet doors at Edinburgh Airport.; 10/16/12, 12:09 AM
Anonymous said...: @Gahrie:

I read somewhere that at some point in history the Scots and Irish basically changed places. Is this true?

In a sense, yes. But it may be safe to say that about most people within travel distance:

The Irish largely used the Roman Catholic Church to expand their geographic footprint. After St. Patrick, Irish monasteries became wealthy by the accumulation of ancient texts and by intense scholarship. After monasteries spread there like wildfire, the Irish expanded to Scotland.

Scotland, which before that was a mixture of Picts and native Celtic, got so affected by Irish monastic influence that it got named "Scotia"---which means "land of the Gaels"---a term that once exclusively applied to Ireland proper. That's term became "Scotland" in later English.

So, in that sense, the Irish colonized Scotland.

About a thousand years after the Irish began monastic colonization, the English decided to properly colonize Ireland, which had long been a difficult land for them to hold properly. T

he British started in the fiercest area---Northern Ireland, mainly the county of Ulster---and paid good Presbyterian-but-poor Scots to take land and jobs there---the so-called "Ulster Plantation."

Their descendants are the UK loyalists still there who have successfully resisted leaving the crown and joining Ireland proper. The Brits were wise; the North has been the sight of battles where the Ulster Scots fought hard against the Irish (such as in the defenses of Derry, the "maiden city.").

So, in that sense, the Scots colonized Ireland.; 10/16/12, 12:21 AM
Anthony said...: Scottish independnence is more popular in England than Scotland. The referndum will lose but Scotland will end up with more devolved powers.; 10/16/12, 12:25 AM
Kirk Parker said...: Yes, I'm part Scot (the name's not fake) but I voted no, for the same reason as edutcher in #2.

Erik,

Yes, and if it IS Scottish, it's Haggis--so maybe no improvement?; 10/16/12, 12:28 AM
Rich Rostrom said...: The vast majority of British commenters at Guido Fawkes' blog are in favor of Scottish independence. Many complain that as Englishment they won't be able to vote for it.

Others are complaining that while the Scots get to vote on independence from Britain, Britons are not allowed to vote on independence from the EU.; 10/16/12, 12:40 AM
Blair said...: As a descendent of Scotsmen, I support the Scottish nation, and independence from Sassenach rule.

Yes, Scotland votes for commies now, but independence would not only give England better government, it would also force the Scots to vote for sensible politicians. It would be great for both halves of the isle.

Never forget that, courtesy of Mr Adam Smith, the Scots invented (or at least diagnosed) capitalism! Independence would force them to make good use of it.; 10/16/12, 12:44 AM
Alex said...: Where is William Wallace when you need one?; 10/16/12, 1:02 AM
Methadras said...: Maybe they'll finally modify the Kilt into a Skilt. You know the close cousin of the Skort. :D; 10/16/12, 1:47 AM
ampersand said...: Perhaps the votes belongs to the English to cede Scotland, to the Canadians to cede Quebec and to the US States to cede Puerto Rico and Guam.

Hats off to the Czechs and Slovaks,who recognized their differences and split peacefully.; 10/16/12, 2:36 AM
MayBee said...: They want to take their Andy Murry and go home.; 10/16/12, 2:49 AM
Nora said...: I voted no. We leaved in Scotland for over 8 years in the 1990s. I think that if they break from England, they will be worth than Greece in a couple of years after that.; 10/16/12, 4:10 AM
miss j said...: Your poll is badly framed.

Why ask if people are "part/all Scot" without using the word ancestry? There's a huge difference between actually "being Scot" and having an ancestor who was from Scotland.

Think of how bizarre Elizabeth Warren sounds when she claims to be 1/32nd Cherokee (putting aside, for this discussion, the unequivocal fact that not one of her great^4 grandparents was Cherokee).; 10/16/12, 5:06 AM
Jaq said...: If you give the English a vote, I am betting this would win in a landslide.; 10/16/12, 5:29 AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: "Doesn't it make you proud to be Scottish?"

"It's shite bein' Scottish! We're the lowest of the low! The scum of the fuckin' earth! The most wretched, pathetic, servile trash ever to be shat into civilization!

Some people hate the English; I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, were colonized by wankers. We couldn't even find a decent culture to be colonized by!"; 10/16/12, 6:28 AM
KCFleming said...: "Should Scotland leave the U.K.?"

Maybe if the UK brought flowers more often, painted the living room like he kept promising, or did a foot massage once in awhile.

Or maybe the UK should start dating France and make Scotland really really jealous.; 10/16/12, 6:59 AM
Tarkwell Robotico said...: Separatist politics have been the single greatest blight on the Quebec economy for two generations now.

Before the Quebec separatist movement became a real force, Montreal was the largest city in Canada, finance capital of Canada, industrial base and transportation hub of Canada.

Enormous wealth bled away from Quebec because of the lunatic uncertainty and anomosity stirred up by separatist movements.

Scotland's reasons to separate are sillier and more trivial than Quebec's. Waisting resources and creating anxieties with Scottish separatism is a cancer for Scottish standards of living.; 10/16/12, 7:00 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: TRICK OR TREAT: CANDY TOLD TO FOLLOW RULES...

Thank god the liberals dont have Drudge.; 10/16/12, 7:18 AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: I read another article on this (too lazy to look for the link, sorry) wherein the reporter quoted a twentysomething whose concern was with which direction would lead to a Scotland with more "equality, benefits, and social justice."

Because that's working so well for Greece, Italy, England, France, et al.

Are Europeans completely brain-dead? Totally nonfunctional?

I really wonder whether the only path ahead is another dark ages, and, Lord willing, another slow climb back up to civilization four or five hundred years hence. But whether the ideals of Western civilization will even survive, let alone become dominant again, is something I'm pretty pessimistic about, given the raging oikophobia in our ruling class.; 10/16/12, 7:28 AM
Joe Schmoe said...: Should Scotland leave the U.K.?

Sure. That way, when the caber toss becomes an Olympic event, they won't have to share the glory with England.; 10/16/12, 7:45 AM
Tank said...: How could this even be an issue?

I thought diversity was their strength.; 10/16/12, 7:48 AM
X said...: I'm always amused that seccession referendums only include the people who are potentially leaving and not the rest of the country.; 10/16/12, 8:15 AM
ndspinelli said...: Scottish baiting obviously doesn't produce the numbers like race baiting posts.; 10/16/12, 8:42 AM
gerry said...: I know the Scots can't survive without English subsidies, but what the hell...pull the pin and throw it in. Just to see what happens.; 10/16/12, 8:49 AM
Anonymous said...: ...and in other news. The Flemings have elected a nationalist party that wants Flanders out of Belgium and the Catalans ,like the Scots, would dearly love to get out of Spain (to say nothing about the Basques). There's also nationalist movement to separate Corsica from France.

Those, Euros, so much more sophisticated than us 'merican yokels.; 10/16/12, 8:52 AM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: L:arsPorsena,

...and in other news. The Flemings have elected a nationalist party that wants Flanders out of Belgium and the Catalans ,like the Scots, would dearly love to get out of Spain (to say nothing about the Basques). There's also nationalist movement to separate Corsica from France.

To say nothing of the Lega Nord in Italy, which (protestations to the contrary, and talk of "federalism" and the like notwithstanding) would love the North of Italy not to bear any responsibility for the South of Italy.; 10/16/12, 10:36 AM
Anonymous said...: Don't they know there is strength in numbers? Ah, that rugged individualism. Does Rick Perry still want Texas to secede from the nation?; 10/16/12, 10:45 AM
ken in tx said...: I was at an international military conference once and the RAF rep was Scottish. I could not understand a word he said. The Luftwaffe guy, OTOH, was perfectly understandable.

My family is Scots-Irish Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed--American since 1788.

The Scots are stupid if they separate.; 10/16/12, 12:24 PM
Seeing Red said...: -- read another article on this (too lazy to look for the link, sorry) wherein the reporter quoted a twentysomething whose concern was with which direction would lead to a Scotland with more "equality, benefits, and social justice."--

Mom & Dad America let the kids stay in the basement far too long.

She's either gonna emigrate when things get tough or her epiphany will be "Sod off, Swampy!"; 10/16/12, 12:43 PM
Seeing Red said...: Inga - how's the EU working out?; 10/16/12, 12:46 PM
Michael said...: I love Scotland but the independence idea is preposterous. Few questions: 1. Where do you intend to build your mint and in what denominations do you plan to produce and what will you call your currency? 2.) Where do you plan to establish your military training and operational bases?
3.) Do you plan at some point on joining the EU and what chance do you believe you will be admitted?; 10/16/12, 12:56 PM
teej said...: I was in Edinburgh this summer, 18 years after my last visit. The city was still awe-inspiring, but the vitality of the people seemed to be much diminished.

The Scottish Parliament building that was built at the end of the Royal Mile, across from Holyrood House, may be the ugliest example of architecture I have ever seen. At the end of Old Town, surrounded by buildings 400-500 years old, it is a modern monstrosity.

Estimated to cost 10M-40M pounds, it ended up costing 400M pounds, and opened 3 years behind schedule. I think it serves as an apt metaphor for the prospects of Scotland independence.; 10/16/12, 3:02 PM
Crunchy Frog said...: Someone on my wife's side of the family traced their ancestry back to good old Robert the Bruce himself. So my kids are part Scot (and Dane, German, Dutch, etc).

That being said, comment #1 says it all. They'll still be ruled by Brussels, and protected by us.; 10/16/12, 3:52 PM
William said...: Scotland is a granfalloon. The last open rebellion was in 1745. The Highlanders came down from the north and reached to within 90 miles of London before being repulsed. The lowlanders, the people of Edinburgh and Glasgow, said what's this Scot shit. They preferred to think of themselves as north Britons and did not join the rebellion. Unlike their counterparts in France, the members of the Scottish enlightenment had no illusions about noble savages. They only had to look a few miles north. The highlanders were illiterate cattle rustlers They had an admirable martial spirit but little else to recommend them. Men like David Hume and Adam Smith felt that being British offered far granders prospects than being Scottish.....Later on Sir Walter Scott successfully romanticized the Highlanders, but those whom we think of as the great men of Scotland at that time preferred Great Britain. And, in truth, for a huge chunk of British history, the Scots were much better at succeeding in Britain than the English.; 10/16/12, 5:42 PM

Would you vote for Scottish independence?
	Yes! (And I'm part/all Scot.)
	Yes, but I have no Scottish ancestry.
	No! (And I'm part/all Scot.)
	No, but I have no Scottish ancestry.

pollcode.com free polls

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October 15, 2012

Should Scotland leave the U.K.?

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October 15, 2012

Should Scotland leave the U.K.?

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