In early May, 50% described Obama’s views as mainstream, while 40% said they were extreme. Romney's views were seen as mainstream by 51% and extreme by 35%. The latest findings are more in line with voters’ perceptions in October of last year, the first time Rasmussen Reports asked this question.So the "extremeness" gap doubled, as Romney got 5 points less extreme and Obama got 5 points more extreme. As for moderation, Romney gained merely one point of mainstreamosity, while Obama lost 5.
What has happened since early May that might account for this shift? Obama's same-sex marriage announcement came on May 9th. There's also been a lot of talk about capitalism — Bain and all that.
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60 comments:
I think the biggest thing is that now people know Romney as more than just "Mormon guy running for president." I think it has less to do with Obama, and more to do with people getting to know Romney.
I really hope it's the capitalism thing.
How the fuck can 48% of respondents not view Romney as mainstream? I mean, Harvard Law and B-School? WTF?
Those 48% are either Mormon haters or scary extremists.
Really, neither Romney or Obama are "main stream." Dancing horses and a little blow when you can get it don't strike me how most people try to live their lives.
"Dancing horses"
I think this mockery of dressage could backfire. There are a lot of women who love horses and are sensitive about making fun of women, especially women with disabilities.
I'd be careful not to wander into the war on women. You might get collaterally damaged.
I'd like to see the 45% who still think Choom is mainstream after 4 years.
And Matthew's right. As people get to know thew Romster, they like what they see. His combativeness is winning over a lot of Conservatives.
Ann Althouse said...
Dancing horses
I think this mockery of dressage could backfire. There are a lot of women who love horses and are sensitive about making fun of women, especially women with disabilities.
I'd be careful not to wander into the war on women. You might get collaterally damaged.
Definitely.
Trying to turn a woman with MS into Marie Antoinette is a losing game and shows how hateful and hate-filled the Lefties are.
WV "tindiva" Madonna, Lady Gaga, Britney...
This set of opinions, If it holds up, means Obama has lost.
Campaigns for relection boil down to a 2 stage test.
1 Does Obama deserve reelctions, If yes, end, if no, go to 2
2. Does Romney scare me, if no, stop, if yes, go back to 1 and reevaluate.
This poll seems to indicate that folks aren't frightened much by Romney.
the "extremeness" gap doubled, as Romney got 5 points less extreme and Obama got 5 points more extreme.
How significant is it for an incumbent President to gain "extremist" points?
Obama's gaining 5pts means alot more than Romney losing 5pts.
Matthew: Dancing horses ...don't strike me how most people try to live their lives.
Hunter/jumpers and barrel racing are alot more common in "flyover" country than you would think.
You should deign to speak to some middle class folk next time you are "stranded" in places like Irving and Mesquite Texas.
Maybe; I don't know. I just don't think either one is really that relate-able. But, most politicians aren't. Though, I probably should've used an example about Romney instead of his wife.
Didn't Jackie Kennedy do that dressage thing?
Did that make JFK non-mainstream?
More generally, what's the reasoning behind the idea that successful people are ipso facto not in the mainstream of American political thought?
I just don't think either one is really that relate-able
Uhm, the ratio of girls to guys is 10 to 1. And most of them are hot. With legs that could grace a ZZ Top video.
Why do think I bothered to learn how to jump in the first place :)
Hunter/jumpers and barrel racing are alot more common in "flyover" country than you would think
Right. Cutting horse shows are a BIG thing. Big bucks. The horses are expensive and the air conditioned trailers that they are transported in can cost as much as an expensive RV.
Fascinating to watch.
Jackie rode, English-style, and so did Caroline.
God, I got sick of hearing about her pony, Macaroni.
The things the Romneys do aren't that much different from Jay Leno's collecting cars and motorcycles.
Derrick Bell now ....
Though, I probably should have used an example about Romney instead of his wife.
Yes, that whole "punch back twice as hard" bit really sucks when you're on the receiving end, doesn't it?
Try this - Romney himself doesn't smoke, drink or swear. Perhaps you can ponder if that doesn't strike you as how most people try to live thri lives.
"Yes, that whole "punch back twice as hard" bit really sucks when you're on the receiving end, doesn't it?"
-- Just to clarify, I voted McCain, and will most likely be voting Romney.
Matthew Sablan said...
Really, neither Romney or Obama are "main stream." Dancing horses and a little blow when you can get it don't strike me how most people try to live their lives.
Since the New York Times wrote a hit piece on Ann Romney, similar articles about Michelle Obama are now fair game. We all know how the Democrats are interested in fairness, don't we? Did Ann Romney ever spend half a million of the taxpayer dollars on a vacation for herself and her friends?
Likewise, attacks on Romney's religion mean it's fair to look at Obama's 20 year attendance at Reverend Wright's church. Some may argue that Mormonism is outside the religious mainstream, but then, so is liberation theology.
Punch back twice as hard and twice as often. Get inside their OODA loop and destroy them.
35% see Romney's views as extreme.
I don't know if jump the shark has jumped the shark, but if jump the shark hasn't jumped the shark, then extremism has definitely jumped the shark.
Racism, sexism, extremism, Communism. I hate all the words ending in -ism.
While I love all the words ending in -asm.
More asm, less ism.
Chip S. said...
Didn't Jackie Kennedy do that dressage thing?
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Yes. Tons of photos, too. Bad ground to bash Ann Romney on. And dumb to smear horse lovers and women who grew up adoring horses as "evil capitalist elitists".
There are also a PLETHORA of celebs, ex-jocks, and pols that are known to consider horse riding, dressage, cutting....as their prime recreation.
Bill Shatner. Reese Witherspoon. Madonna. Joe Montana. Ronald Reagan. Deceased Patrick Swayze. Whoopie Goldberg. Chevy Chase. Steven Spielberg. Theresa Kerry. Lyle Lovett. Johnny Depp, Selma Blair. Robert Redford. Bo Derek. Ladybird Johnson. Joe Perry of Aerosmith. Viggo Mortenson. Jewel. Lucy Liu. General George Patton.
Bad line of attack for urbanized "horses are smelly beasts out there in Flyover Country!" Obamites on Team Axelrod - to launch.
Just run Jackie Kennedy photos to one demographic, Robert Redford on a horse to another, TDR, Reagan and George Washington on horseback (OK, no photo of Washington on his white steed, just 80+ paintings) to independents.
I love all the words ending in -asm.
You might want to temper your enthusiasm.
You chided Bill Clinton yesterday for saying what many are saying and for trying to refocus the debate on what it should be. A lot of turn around is due to the comments from many centrist Democratic politicians including some prominent Black politicians discouraging Obama from taking the 'capitalism is bad' attack line on Romney.
BTW, about your attitude toward Bill Clinton, as an ex-president you won't just stop participating in what is going on in your country. You have an obligation to speak up and restore balance.
You know I'm all in for Romney, but trying to spin this dressage thing as something middle class women do is just laughable. Why apologize for being wealthy? Own it!
Those 48% are either Mormon haters or scary extremists.
Sounds like Crack.
Horses (and horse women by extension) are very popular in Colorado!
The Romneys apparently are worth $250 million +/20-25%.
If in your circles, misplacing $1.5 billion is not considered a big deal, you probably should not be attacking the Romneys for being "rich."
May be Ann Romney as first lady could set up a dude ranch on WH grounds offering therapy for the needy and the disabled.
Alex said...
You know I'm all in for Romney, but trying to spin this dressage thing as something middle class women do is just laughable. Why apologize for being wealthy? Own it!
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You obviously have never been to a Midwest, Southeast, Western horse show or rodeo - where middle class men, women, juniors compete in horse events, including dressage. Part of the gate reciepts and vendors fee pays for those rented horses ...
+/-, +/-. +/-
You might want to temper your enthusiasm.
Neoplasm sounds awesome, though. I also like ectoplasm, phantasm and spasm.
People afflicted with blepharospasm usually find it to be a cataclasm.
Sorry for the pleonasm.
And BTW, the term "middle class" is not synonymous with "middle income." "Middle class" means small business owners, professional people, etc., and is not necessarily dependent on income or wealth.
52%? There goes the Mormon meme. Is the Obama campaign out of ammo yet?
Amend that to pay for part of the "horse costs" be that a rental or the horse the competitor owns and cares for.
There are also sponsors - big, serious money sponsors - regional banks, business, agribiz and mining supply outfits.
Things an urbanized Chicagoite or people amidst the Washington Post and NY Times Megopolis are clueless about. (Though the Post is well aware of the Virginia
"horsey set" that also draw their sustainance from the Beltway...and the black upper middle class segment that "gets back to their roots" with weekend farms, horse riding, Southern Culturefests.) The DC minority business owner Dad of a friend of mine is one of the crazier ones - he owned a 2-mule team that he competes weighted sled contests with. And owns 2 other "prospect" mules.
This is only true if you consider con men as "mainstream" - needless to say, TMR does not:
You're So Bain, Part I (The Vetting Of Mitt Romney,...)
Prepare yourselves, Girls (including the ones with vaginas) you're not going to like it,...
Alex,
Those 48% are either Mormon haters or scary extremists.
Sounds like Crack.
Yeah, I'm everywhere,…
I don't know what blepharospasm is, but I don't like it.
100% of non-racists say Obama is Awesome!!!
My mother died at a young age of MS; it's a brutal, cruel, painful and killing disease.
Those who mock those with MS undoubtedly have a special corner of hell reserved for them.
But if any group of bleeding assholes were to ever mock anyone with MS, its Obama and his supporters.
Remember Obama's Special Olympics mock, anyone?
Despite the left's efforts to demonize Ann Romney, I find her entirely likeable.
Alex: trying to spin this dressage thing as something middle class women do is just laughable.
Alex: "I can't believe Nixon won. I don't know anyone who voted for him"
But that horse is dead. I'd rather discuss what it means when a 4 year *incumbent* gains +5% on "views are extreme"
Some may argue that Mormonism is outside the religious mainstream...
And that's fine to discuss, if you're into theological debates.
But one this should be as obvious as any issue in this election, and that is the the Mormons as a people and a group are as American as the Mississippi river, the railroad, the Supreme Court, or walking on the moon.
You can't tell the story about America and its religious currents, or its geographical expansion, without bumping into the Mormons.
Has the Ed Klein book made an impact?
Quayle said...
Some may argue that Mormonism is outside the religious mainstream...
And that's fine to discuss, if you're into theological debates.
I agree. One of my nieces married a Mormon and converted to their faith. The focus of their lives is their children. Likewise, the Mormon family that lives across the street from me are some of the best neighbors I've ever had. A significant percentage of the Boy Scout troops around here are affiliated with Mormon churches. They teach boys to be responsible men and citizens. The bastards!
The "extremeness gap" tripled, not doubled, from 5% to 15%.
Obama is clueless as to how to fix things, and he is being overtaken by events. The U.S. is rudderless, and that is terrifying.
Here is a good read: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/06/01/obama-overmatched-by-events/
Dressage in Manhattan is top .01 % stuff. The rest of the country? Most everybody knows somebody they like who does it.
Obama called out the New Black Panthers on Zimmerman. He said in effect: justice for people who look like me or could be my son, otherwise, I will cook your rear end by hook or by crook.
Eh. Most people have no idea where the mainstream lies--they assume that they're close to the middle, so the mainstream must lie fairly close to whatever their own views happen to be, plus or minus a degree or two.
Well, people like Alex have spent their entire lives being nursemaided by a Blue Nanny City. Not his fault he's never seen a horse.
Larry J,
One of my nieces married a Mormon and converted to their faith. The focus of their lives is their children.
Gee, they couldn't do that without a load of bullshit "beliefs," and giving part of their earnings to the "church," huh? Of course not. The two go hand-in-hand, if you don't think too hard.
Likewise, the Mormon family that lives across the street from me are some of the best neighbors I've ever had. A significant percentage of the Boy Scout troops around here are affiliated with Mormon churches. They teach boys to be responsible men and citizens. The bastards!
Again - what is it about Mormonism being a convicted con man and rapist's made-up ideology that you don't get? Everything wholesome is a mirage to cover for it's malarky. It didn't stop them from endorsing Hitler, or any of the other evil they've been involved in from the beginning, so what do you think you're advocating?
This week it was announced that polygamy was back on the table - the very thing they had promised to stop (with their fingers crossed behind their backs) in order to make Utah a state - so "thanks a lot" Romney fans:
They're already starting to ramp up their bullshit again with your idiotic "acceptance."
Tell me, Larry: If your nieces are faced with husbands insisting on "sister wives" for them, with the backing (AKA pressure) of the "church community," what are you going to say then - after your endorsement this far? I'll give you the best answer an honest, loving uncle could:
"I'm sorry, girls - I was a moron. I accepted a cult's superficial veneer of respectability, without bothering to look any further, and - by abdicating my responsibility as your family member - allowed you to get sucked into this evil and even bear children for it."
Knowing other lamebrains such as yourself, though, I don't think you have an honest bone in your body, so such a speech will never come. You will, instead, hem and haw, and try to cover up, because dealing with your own role in someone else's misery will be too much for you and others like you to cope with - as "responsible men and citizens."
You sicken me,...
Crack, I think you've gone over the edge. I've noticed you rarely bother to read the linked articles here before you post your drivel. Now I'm starting to see that you really don't read the things you link to either. But of course, you're *so* much more informed than the rest of us that you really don't have to, do you?
Dressage in Manhattan is top .01 % stuff. The rest of the country? Most everybody knows somebody they like who does it.
Yeh - up until about a year ago, just knew people who did western type riding stuff - barrels, cutting, roping, etc., but qusi-GF in N. Nevada is really into dressage now. She has two gorgeous Friesians. Older one competes at a higher level than the younger one. She works with both of them almost every day, weather permitting, and has a trainer in maybe 3 times a week for the three of them.
What is interesting is that much of this land was a set of working ranches up through the 1950s. Still a lot of working ranches around (a lot of those cowboys you see in Reno are real), Western riding is big, and the high schools and colleges tend to have rodeo teams. BUT dressage is now really big there too now. Really surprised me, until she started introducing me to her friends. Some very expensive horses there and across the border in East Central CA.
Thinking back, haven't really lived anywhere in the last 30 years (since I moved back to CO from D.C.) where horses have not been fairly numerous. But, I think that they have increased in popularity over that time. Sitting right now in W. MT, and there are horses w/i maybe a half a mile. But, not nearly as ubiquitous as when I was living in N. Nevada. There, you would not be surprised seeing people, esp. women, coming into Subway after riding, often wearing spurs.
That GF has designed a line of post-operative equine gear coming out hopefully by the end of the year. Big market there, esp. with owners spending thousands up through millions on horses.
Another benefit of living in N. Nevada is that that state is the home of probably a majority of the wild horses in this country. It is enjoyable watching a herd of them coming through, "talking" to the domestic horses as they do so. If you are interested, they are routinely rounded up and sold, with the unsold ones going for food outside this country.
Crack - I think that you are overreacting as far as the polygamy goes. Maybe some of the Mormons here can correct me, but my understanding is that the LDS Church treats polygamists as apostates. Church dogma is dependent, at least to some extent, on revelations by its prophets, and the splinter Mormon sects have declared the mainline Mormon prophets as false, and theirs as true, based on their stand on polygamy.
During much of the 19th Century, polygamy may have been justified by the LDS church to compensate for the shortage of males. Indeed, as I understand it, the second wife tended to be a "duty wife", which was a widow with children. This was a method of taking care of these women and children, without resorting to the state. But, by the end of the 19th Century, much of Utah, S. Idaho, etc., had been civilized, and the women were no longer outnumbering the males to near the extent that they had earlier. Polygamy was no longer needed to care for all of the excess, and esp. widowed, women. (And, as you note, giving up polygamy was key to statehood).
@Bruce -- yes, your description of the modern treatment and attitude towards polygamy within the Mormon world is correct. No state (well, maybe Arizona) prosecuted it more aggressively than Utah. Crack takes a headline signifying nothing more than a libertarian streak in a Utah sheriff as a sign the LDS hierarchy is about to drop the mask and go back to multiple wives.
I don't think anyone can give a definitive explanation for Mormon polygamy historically. There are more angles to the story than can be fairly represented in any one telling. It's true there was a surplus of females in early Mormon culture -- but you certainly didn't have to marry a widow to take care of her and her family. My personal belief is that whatever other objective it may have accomplished, polygamy turned the LDS church from a fringe religious movement into a people.
Brigham Young was clear that he feared the effects societal acceptance would have on his flock and welcomed rejection by the larger US culture. And polygamy gave him his wish. Both the rock-strong family ties it helped to create and the persecutions it brought about forged an identity for Mormons beyond just their religious beliefs.
I used to like the stuff Crack wrote. Now it just seems like bitter bigotry. I just skip it now.
I used to like the stuff Crack wrote. Now it just seems like bitter bigotry. I just skip it now.
Dittos, Tim. To paraphrase the great philosophers Bob and Doung McKenzie, his whole "I'm the only honest man in a world of liars!" shtick was funny at first, but now it just bugs me.
I do love how the Mormons are an evil, nasty cult bent on perverting the family and turning the country into a theocracy, but somehow Crack can never quite explain how that's going to happen. It's underpants gnomes all over again:
1. President Romney;
2. ??
3. THEOCRACY!?!?!
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