Althouse: "Caved in the bleedin' tunnel."

June 3, 2012

"Caved in the bleedin' tunnel."

Richard Dawson. He was 79.

55 comments:

edutcher said...: Too bad. He had quite a life.

He was quite the ladies' man in real life and, off the cuff, threw one of the best come-on lines I ever heard when he was on the Griffin show with Beverly Sills, "I thought all the angels were in Heaven until I heard you sing".; 6/3/12, 11:26 AM
ndspinelli said...: Well, Bob Crane was reeeeeally a ladies man!; 6/3/12, 11:28 AM
Saint Croix said...: I remember Dawson would kiss just about any woman who showed up on Family Feud, no matter how unattractive. I thought it was kind of classy. Presumably he just wanted to kiss the pretty ones. But he was a fair man, so he kissed 'em all.; 6/3/12, 11:35 AM
ndspinelli said...: Bob Crane fucked them all..on videotape.; 6/3/12, 11:38 AM
edutcher said...: Crane was more than a little sick - and it caught up with him.; 6/3/12, 11:47 AM
Christopher in MA said...: Too bad. I've always been a fan of that show.

BTW, Dawson thought he was going to get the Hogan role, and when it was given to Crane, he sulked, swore and belittled Crane through the entire run. And it was Dawson who introduced Crane to his friend John Carpenter, who set up Crane's video sex sessions and - so many believe - killed him. "Autofocus" by Robert Graysmith is the book on the case. An interesting read.; 6/3/12, 11:49 AM
Saint Croix said...: The movie, Auto Focus was sharply critical of Hogan's Heroes for being in bad taste, making light of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. I think this criticism utterly misses the point of the show. Jews often use humor to mock their enemies. Billy Wilder did it. Mel Brooks did it. And Werner Klemperer (who played Col. Klink) is the child of Jews who fled Nazi Germany. I think Jews are entitled to mock the Nazis. And while Hogan's Heroes is overbroad and often silly, there are some rather fascinating aspects to the show, too. It's worthy of our time and attention. So kudos to Richard Dawson for his participation in Hogan's Heroes.; 6/3/12, 11:49 AM
Saint Croix said...: A lot of great artists have tried to use humor against the Nazis: Chaplin, Lubitsch, Wilder. If you want to see mockery, though, real mockery and scorn, you really can't beat this TV show. Even more than Wilder's original film, Stalag 17, this show ridicules Nazis without mercy. It's a subversive and light sitcom about a bunch of POWs who operate as spies behind enemy lines.

The show manages to capture the dark side of Nazis, specifically the SS. Periodically they come in and threaten to send Col. Klink to the eastern front. Meanwhile, Sgt. Schultz knows the prisoners are up to something, but to acknowledge it would open up a huge can of worms. "I see nothing!" Klink and Schultz are caught between a rock and a hard place, between the evil SS and those damn sneaky POWs. Klink begs Hogan to cooperate and be nice. Meanwhile, instead of escaping to safety--which they could do anytime they wanted to--the POWs sacrifice their own liberty to stay in the prison camp and spy on the Germans.

Hogan's Heroes is broad to be sure. Many of us underrate it. It's not particularly funny or dramatic, but it is enjoyable in the way many TV shows are, and you can easily lose yourself in an episode. What makes it worthy of our time, I think, is that it captures perfectly the mindset we should have about Nazis. Nazis are stupid, stupid, stupid. Over and over the show relishes an attack on the intelligence of Nazis. Oh, you stupid morons, look what we are doing right under your noses. No way are you going to win this war.

You see a lot of Nazis in art. They are our default bad guy, even today, 65 years after the war. But you would be hard-pressed to find any more withering scorn for Nazis than in any random episode of Hogan's Heroes. It is perhaps one of the finest examples of pure mockery in art.

I think much of our pleasure from this show is on that simple basis. "Let's outsmart the Nazis." And yet if you think about it, Col. Klink is a fascinating creation. He's a weak man, a coward, and stupid. But he is not actually evil in the way of the SS. Klink and Schultz are not Nazis so much as nihilists, people who just want to get along in life. "I see nothing!" It's a metaphor for a type of person who wants to avoid conflict at all costs. The repression in that line fascinates. It is, perhaps, an oblique reminder of the German refusal to see what was happening to the Jews. Klink and Schultz avoid seeing what the POWs are so obviously up to, for the same reason they avoid seeing what the Nazis are up to: to see such things would cause problems for them personally. So Klink chooses, on some level, to be a buffoon, and Schultz loves his strudel. They are likable and yet in a certain way reprehensible. It is the humanity of Klink and Schultz--their weakness, their fear, their basic decency--that makes this show so interesting. We watch as they bounce back and forth between the evil of Nazi Germany and the heroism of the POWs.; 6/3/12, 11:50 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Richard Dawson will be back, like Ben Richards, only in a rerun.; 6/3/12, 11:51 AM
Saint Croix said...: While the show undoubtedly works on the cheap level of adolescent thrills--watch as we upstage authority and mock the Nazis--the show also works on a more complicated level of subversion and repression and masks. The POWs often corrupt Schultz with strudel, and then he refuses to see what he has in fact seen. The POWs go further, on occasion saving Klink from the Nazis so as to keep him as commandant. The conceit is that no Nazi can possibly be as dumb, or as complicit, as Klink. Klink in turn defends his own perfect record, how no one has ever escaped from his prison camp. Which is true enough, but only because it is headquarters of a massive spy ring.

The show works on both simple and complex levels. Nazis are mocked without mercy. And yet too the show is all about masks and self-deceit and repression and subterfuge and denial. Much of this swirls around the character of Col. Klink, the buffoon with a monocle and a riding crop. He is unable to be good and unable to be evil. He is too weak to please the Nazis and too weak to stand up to them. He is not a Nazi so much as a facade of a Nazi. His whole camp is a facade. And yet he wants to be liked by the Nazis and liked by Hogan. He wants everyone to like him and he wants all problems to disappear. It is Klink's desire to avoid all conflicts and problems and disharmony--his desire to keep his beautiful facade up at all costs--that makes Hogan's Heroes unusual and fascinating. While it is a simple, even a simple-minded sitcom, it is also one of the more layered comedies you will ever see. In fact that's exactly what it is, since half the show takes place in an underground tunnel.

I remember when I was a kid and I first heard of "the French underground." I figured they were actually underground, like the guys in Hogan's Heroes. Good guys in secret tunnels under bad guys is a wonderful and comic visual, a manifestation of id against ego, of rebels against tyranny and oppression. It's silly, yes, but kinda brilliant too.; 6/3/12, 11:52 AM
Larry J said...: And Werner Klemperer (who played Col. Klink) is the child of Jews who fled Nazi Germany.

In addition, Robert Clary, who played Cpl. Louis LeBeau was interned in a Nazi concentration camp as a child.; 6/3/12, 12:00 PM
ricpic said...: The fact that Hogan's Heroes got made at all was extraordinary. Don't forget, this was back in 1965, only 20 years after the war. Can you imagine the pitch session to the brass at CBS? "We're thinking of a comedy show about a Nazi prisoner of war camp, in which the prisoners sometimes fool the camp commander and guards and escape and sometimes are caught and punished." Talk about a leap of faith on the part of the suits who gave them the go ahead!; 6/3/12, 12:07 PM
edutcher said...: "Hogan" was possible only because of "The Great Escape". Bribing the guards, etc., was all there first.

And Klink and Schultz are merely typical of Germans caught up in the war, hardly Nazis, similar to the way on "Combat" the infantrymen aren't all fighting for Mom and Apple Pie, but there doing a job.

When he did the talk shows, Crane would always tell how, on personal appearances, former POWs would come up to him and say, "Wait till you hear what we did...". The show was less controversial than some might think because people had been doing material like that since "Stalag 17".; 6/3/12, 12:17 PM
Chuck66 said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/3/12, 12:21 PM
Chuck66 said...: Since seeing that movie about Bob Crane, I cannot see a photo of him and not think about what a sick pervert he was.; 6/3/12, 12:21 PM
Chuck66 said...: I know a lady whose father was in the Wehrmacht. He fought in Russia and eventually captured by the Soviets. Spent several years in one of Stalin's concentration camps.

She is very adament that he was not a nazi ("that was a political party"), but a draftee into the German army. Perhaps there were a lot of Sgt Schultzs and Klinks in Germany during that time. Those who had no political ideology, but just ordinary citizens who were forced to become part of what all occured 70 years ago.; 6/3/12, 12:32 PM
Chuck66 said...: It is illegal to say "Heil Hitler" in Germany, so when Hogan's Heroes was shown on German TV, they would dub in other words. Always something silly. So instead of the characters saying "heil Hitler", they would say something like "frosty cupcake" or something similiar.; 6/3/12, 12:35 PM
Quaestor said...: Saint Croix wrote:
Klink and Schultz are not Nazis so much as nihilists, people who just want to get along in life. "I see nothing!" It's a metaphor for a type of person who wants to avoid conflict at all costs.

I agree with every observation you've made about Hogan's Heroes except your classification of Klink and Schultz as nihilists. A nihilist can be many things, but not a person who wants to avoid conflict at all costs. Historically nihilists have been revolutionary and confrontational, not passive.; 6/3/12, 12:38 PM
Wally Kalbacken said...: That's why they call them the classics!; 6/3/12, 12:40 PM
LordSomber said...: Dawson was funny on Match Game, probably because he was so obviously blotto.; 6/3/12, 12:52 PM
ndspinelli said...: Saint Croix, My old man's best friend, and the best man in his wedding, hated Hogan'd Heroes. He spent 3 years in a Nazi prison camp. Most WW2 vets felt the same. It trivialized their plight. They loved the great flick Stalag 17, and Teh Great Escape. Comedy is pain plus time. The 1960's were simply to close to the war. Now, I liked the show, but out of respect for my old man and other WW2 vets I watched it when they weren't around.; 6/3/12, 12:54 PM
ndspinelli said...: Bob Crane was the morning disc jockey on WBIS in Bristol, Ct. when I was a kid. You listened to WBIS when it snowed, praying to hear your school's name.; 6/3/12, 12:55 PM
rcocean said...: Hogan's heroes was one of the funniest shows on TV. I loved the way the easy going American always fools the Stiff necked Prussian (Klink).

Needless to say the US POWs in Germany didn't have such a fun time, even Stalag 17 whitewashes it up a lot. Of course, being a German POW was a picnic compared to being a Japanese POW>; 6/3/12, 12:57 PM
ndspinelli said...: In college my freshman year there was a guy who knew EVERYTHING about Hogan's Heroes. He would put together a mid term and final exam and it was very competetive. A case of beer went to the winner.; 6/3/12, 12:59 PM
Ipso Fatso said...: "I know a lady whose father was in the Wehrmacht."

My dad was in WWII & Korea. He knew guys in Korea that fought for the Wehrmacht. I have heard other vets from that era say the same thing. Facinating story and one that as far as I know, didn't get alot of attention.; 6/3/12, 1:11 PM
Quaestor said...: Chuck66 wrote:
She is very adament that he was not a nazi ("that was a political party"), but a draftee into the German army. Perhaps there were a lot of Sgt Schultzs and Klinks in Germany during that time. Those who had no political ideology, but just ordinary citizens who were forced to become part of what all occured 70 years ago.

I have great sympathy for anyone who fell into the hands of Stalin's NKVD (the precursor organization to the KGB which operated the prison camp system) including Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS soldiers, but your friend's attempt to absolve her father by claiming he was not a Nazi and only a conscript is a bit disingenuous. Firstly, being a Nazi wasn't as simple as a declaration. There were a lot of Nazi sympathizers -- the large majority of adult Germans agreed with the National Socialist agenda at least to some degree -- and an overwhelming majority of the youth and children literally worshiped Hitler and took his program for gospel. Actual party membership, however, was confined to a select elite who jealously guarded their status. The historians and war crimes investigators who followed the Allies into Germany were stunned by lame excuses and denials they encountered. It seemed that Germany under Hitler was a National Socialist state without any National Socialists. Just like Sergeant Schultz "I know nothing" was on everyone's lips -- everyone except the kids, they had a harder time shedding the habits of mind and manner that had been drilled into them day and night since kindergarten.

That controversy over Hogan's Heroes and making light of the Nazis reminds me of a Holocaust-themed film that came out in 2008 called The Boy in the Striped Pajamas, which concerns Bruno, the eight year old son of an SS officer in charge of a KZ, who befriends a strange emaciated shaven-headed boy who must stay behind barbed wire. You see, Bruno is a child and therefore innocent, and therefore he doesn't know that his friend is a prisoner in a death camp... This movie made me want to chew nails. Not only was it highly inaccurate historically, it was absurd on in its basic premise. If there was anyone in Nazi Germany who was certain that the Jews were dirty subhumans who had to be expunged for the sake of Aryan survival it would be an eight year old son of an SS officer.; 6/3/12, 1:30 PM
edutcher said...: Anyone who wants to know what being a prisoner of the Krauts was like should read Jerry Sage*'s autobiography, "Code Name: Dagger".

PS Crane had a great line in the show which described Klink to a T, "Klink and his monocle are still fighting World War I".

* OSS agent captured in North Africa and part of the Great Escape. His best line when asked if he missed women, "It's not the sex you miss, it's the steaks. We were hungry all the time" .; 6/3/12, 1:50 PM
rcocean said...: The so-called "controversy" is a new phenomenon. When I saw it in re-runs in the 70s it was considered a mildly amusing kid's show. Of course, people back then didn't call every German in WW II a "nazi" or confuse concentrations camps with POWs.; 6/3/12, 2:32 PM
Synova said...: There were a number of Pacific theater WW2 shows as well that were really funny. And I'm sure there are a certain number of people who simply couldn't deal with "funny" and what they went through.

But that doesn't mean Hogan's Heroes was anything but a brilliant mockery.

Saint Croix's analysis is better than what I could offer, and I agree with all of it (though I also question the use of nihilist, though I think that Klink and Schultz probably were at some level).

I bought a couple of the seasons of the show. I wasn't sure what my kids would think of it, but the show has aged really well and they thought it was great.; 6/3/12, 2:40 PM
edutcher said...: Synova said...

There were a number of Pacific theater WW2 shows as well that were really funny.

I can think of "McHale's Navy" and that's it.

There were only a few WWII shows and most were serious and were almost all set in Europe.; 6/3/12, 2:46 PM
Saint Croix said...: There were a lot of Nazi sympathizers -- the large majority of adult Germans agreed with the National Socialist agenda at least to some degree

This was Nazi propaganda. That's why there was thousands of Germans saluting Hitler in Triumph of the Will. It was propaganda designed to induce conformity and give the illusion of popular support.

You actually want to know if the majority of Germans agreed with Hitler? Have an election. That's how you determine that.

Hitler won a plurality in 1932. Which means he did not have the support of most Germans. A majority of Germans voted against Hitler in 1932. And that was it, no more elections.

After 1932, Hitler ripped out the democratic system of government. Opposition parties were outlawed. There was no freedom of speech. Opponents were jailed or killed.

You can't ignore all that stuff and say that Hitler enjoyed popular support. It's like saying Castro speaks for Cuba. Or apartheid was the will of the people of South Africa. Or everybody loved Uncle Joe. Or the American people favor abortion.

I know it's simple-minded of me to insist on an election. But I do.; 6/3/12, 3:00 PM
Larry J said...: Needless to say the US POWs in Germany didn't have such a fun time, even Stalag 17 whitewashes it up a lot. Of course, being a German POW was a picnic compared to being a Japanese POW.

It is all a matter of perspective. I spent a year helping a local retired pilot write his autobiography. At 19, he was a B-17 pilot who was shot down over France on his 28th mission. He and most of his crew had the misfortune of being picked up by the Gestapo while trying to evade capture. They and about 80 other American airmen (and about 100 other Allied airmen) ended up in Buchenwald. After a few months there, a Luftwaffe officer found out they were being held illegally and got them transferred to Stalag Luft III (where the Great Escape had taken place some months earlier). My friend said that going from Buchenwald to the Stalag was like going "from hell to heaven." The other POWs didn't see anything heavenly about the Stalag but they didn't have his experience. He was down to 80 pounds when transferred.

Fully agree about those poor souls who were prisoners of the Japanese. Less than 10% of American POWs in German custody died in captivity. More than 25% of them died in Japanese custody.; 6/3/12, 3:17 PM
Synova said...: "I can think of "McHale's Navy" and that's it."

Which one was Gomer Pyle in? Or the nurses in the pink submarine? CPO Sharkey?

Maybe I'm conflating my wars.; 6/3/12, 3:23 PM
Synova said...: Ba Ba Black Sheep wasn't maybe an outright comedy, but it was pretty funny.; 6/3/12, 3:29 PM
Saint Croix said...: I think Gomer was between wars. Shazam.; 6/3/12, 3:44 PM
Saint Croix said...: Surprise, surprise, surprise.; 6/3/12, 3:47 PM
rcocean said...: Gomer Pyle wasn't in a war. Most WW II TV series in the 60s was based in Europe because they were easier to write and easier to cast. You could cast American and Foreign actors as the Germans, you could also have more drama dealing with civilians, and through in some glamorous locations.

By contrast the Pacific was more limited for a TV SERIES.; 6/3/12, 3:52 PM
Quaestor said...: Saint Croix wrote:
This was Nazi propaganda.

I hate to say this but it looks like you're the one who's swallowed some propaganda.

What you have written about the Nazis in 1932 is technically correct. In that year the NSDAP was the largest party in the Reichstag with a plurality but not a majority. However, as unemployment went down and apparent prosperity went up Hitler and his program increased in popularity to the point that party membership increases by more than two million between 1932 and 1935, which would have made the National Socialist the majority party if a vote had been allowed. Hitler considered many of these members to be johnny-come-latelies, and he ordered a purge of the party rolls to rescind all memberships dated after 1933. This moratorium lasted until the autumn of 1938.

Yes, the Triumph of the Will is propaganda, but that was 1936. By June, 1940 and the fall of France Hitler was genuinely overwhelmingly popular. That is the near unanimous opinion of Western scholars who were there in Germany speaking to Germans high and low, and reports and scholars who interviewed expatriate Germans, some of whom had foreign citizenship and had no need to fear reprisals. I'am talking about scholars and journalists like William Shirer, Hugh Treavor-Roper, Hannah Arendt, Robert Conquest and Emil Ludwig Fackenheim.

Scholars who were born after the war and have enjoyed the benefit of examining the tons of documentation left by the Nazis also agree that Hitler and his party were overwhelmingly popular during the late 30s and throughout the war virtually to the bitter end. There are literally thousands of professional historians in this field, however among them Daniel Jonah Goldhagan has a high profile, chiefly due to his book Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust, which stirred up quite a controversy a several years ago because it neatly punctured the illusional "history" some people nursed in order escape the pangs of guilt. Perhaps he overstated his case somewhat, but no scholar has yet been able to knock down his premise with contemporary evidence as opposed to after-the-fact testimony of persons with a motivation to distort (perhaps unconsciously) the record.

Both you and I, Saint Croix are totally dependent on what we read about the Nazis and their times. I choose to read reputable scholars, and none of their writings support your claim. Maybe I'm reading the wrong books. If so you can enlighten me. If you can't I'll just assume your post is nothing more than Saint Croix talking through his hat.

(IF you're interested in what I've read, just ask and I'll give a bibliography as long as your arm); 6/3/12, 4:03 PM
Larry J said...: Synova said...
Ba Ba Black Sheep wasn't maybe an outright comedy, but it was pretty funny.

It wasn't all that funny but it had F4U Corsairs and T-6s make up to look like Zeros. What more do you need?

BTW: Those T-6/Zeros were converted for the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora". I remember seeing ads selling them for under $20K after the movie was finished. Today, they sell for about $200K. Would that I had know and had the money at the time.

That former POW I mentioned in an earlier post said that in 1960, he was offered the chance to buy 10 P-51 Mustangs still in their shipping crates from WWII for $2,000 each. Today, they'd be worth about $1.5 million each.; 6/3/12, 4:12 PM
Ron said...: Come to Althouse for the photos of blonds driving Roller Skates on Steroids, stay for the Algonquin Round Table chatter about Hogan's Heroes!

Next Week: The Post-Structuralist Approach to "Hazel!"; 6/3/12, 4:44 PM
Saint Croix said...: By June, 1940 and the fall of France Hitler was genuinely overwhelmingly popular. That is the near unanimous opinion of Western scholars who were there in Germany speaking to Germans high and low, and reports and scholars who interviewed expatriate Germans, some of whom had foreign citizenship and had no need to fear reprisals.

You understand there's a difference between opinion and fact? Between an opinion poll and an election? Between anecdotal evidence and the right to vote, which is the foundation of popular sovereignty?

Let me put it this way. Would you feel comfortable if we did away with elections? What if we just ask the expert scholars what Americans think? Let's have the social scientists tell us what Americans believe. Do you see any problems with that? Why not have officials in the media give us confident pronouncements about the popularity of agenda X, Y, and Z? We can surely trust the experts!

Maybe I'm reading the wrong books.

It's not a question in regard to how good your social science is. It's a question in regard to whether your recognize the limitations upon social science.

It may be a good working assumption that Hitler was popular in the early stages of the war, when patriotism is going to be running high. But it's not a fact. Nobody knows what the people think, unless there's lots of free speech, followed by a free and fair election.

And Hitler knew that, which is why he never had one.; 6/3/12, 5:38 PM
Toad Trend said...: So long Sir Richard. I loved Family Feud too. This one's for you Richard:

SURVEY SAYS!!!

If you liked Hogan's then you'd probably seen/liked 'The Great Escape'(1963). Just say'n.; 6/3/12, 5:47 PM
MadisonMan said...: Richard Dawson's best Family Feud snippet.; 6/3/12, 5:59 PM
MadisonMan said...: I also loved him (and Brett and Charles) on Match Game. Post-school TV!; 6/3/12, 6:03 PM
Toad Trend said...: MM

September...

Did u catch him at the end after 'cuckoo', he said 'how the hell did you people get on this show?'

Good stuff.; 6/3/12, 6:08 PM
Quaestor said...: Saint Croix wrote:
You understand there's a difference between opinion and fact?

Absolutely. For example:

"After 1932, Hitler ripped out the democratic system of government. Opposition parties were outlawed. There was no freedom of speech. Opponents were jailed or killed. You can't ignore all that stuff and say that Hitler enjoyed popular support. It's like saying Castro speaks for Cuba. Or apartheid was the will of the people of South Africa. Or everybody loved Uncle Joe. Or the American people favor abortion."

Opinion, yours specifically.

"1940 and the fall of France Hitler was genuinely overwhelmingly popular. That is the near unanimous opinion of Western scholars who were there in Germany speaking to Germans high and low, and reports and scholars who interviewed expatriate Germans, some of whom had foreign citizenship and had no need to fear reprisals."

Fact. Not my opinion. I do not say that Hitler was popular. I cannot have a worthwhile opinion on the matter because I haven't done any original research. However it is a fact that majority of qualified experts on Germany in 1940 believe that to be the case.

It is quite within the bounds of democracy for a polity to willingly choose tyranny. It's surprising how often this is the case.; 6/3/12, 8:30 PM
Wally Kalbacken said...: After you watch it for the 3rd or 4th time - isn't is clear that they failed to select a stunt double fat enough to be a credible stand-in for John Banner?

Man - this show was great in its original run, which I seem to recall as Saturday night fare. Der Bingle produced this, generating a crapload of profits, in original and syndication.; 6/3/12, 9:24 PM
Saint Croix said...: Quaestor, what would you say if Obama said there was no need for an election, as long as experts certified his popularity? Would you be okay with that?; 6/3/12, 9:34 PM
Quaestor said...: Saint Croix wrote:
[What] would you say if Obama said there was no need for an election, as long as experts certified his popularity? Would you be okay with that?

Are you eminently dense, senile, or just fuckin' nuts?

I stated as a fact that in the opinion of most reputable historians Hitler enjoyed the overwhelming approval of the German populace in the years leading up to and including WWII, and from that you conclude I approve of and endorse how they, the Germans, felt about their leader. If I were a psychiatrist I'd suspect incipient dementia from a cognitive flow such as you have displayed here.

Perhaps you should recapitulate the thought process by which you arrived at this monumental non sequitur. You might be able pull your brain out of its suicide dive.; 6/3/12, 10:43 PM
Saint Croix said...: you conclude I approve of and endorse how they, the Germans, felt about their leader.

No. Discussions about Nazis are fraught with difficulties. People get upset and emotional and misunderstand. I hate Nazis. You hate Nazis. You think the overwhelming majority of Germans were Nazi sympathizers, because several authorities have told you that. My point is that these authorities can't possibly know what a majority of Germans actually thought without a vote to confirm it. That's why democracies have votes, to confirm majority will.

So I asked you to engage in a thought experiment where our election was called off, and experts told you that our leader was popular. You refuse to engage in that thought experiment. Okay. But I am not engaging in ad hominem attack. My assumption is that you would deny the validity of expert opinion in regard to something as important as majority rule. Majority rule has to be defined by voting. That's what majority rule is. Expert opinion is a very poor substitute.

Suppose Obama is leading in the polls 80% to 20%. And the polls are done by people you trust completely. So? You still don't know what the majority thinks until we have a vote. The vote is validation. The vote is factual. Up to the vote, it's all opinion, theory, and pseudoscience horseshit.

What's true for our country is true for Germany. We can assume all we want, but assumptions are not facts. Votes are facts. We might assume that Peter the Great was "popular," but you don't frickin' know it unless he wins an election and people voice their support.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. I meant no offense and I'm sorry you took it the wrong way.; 6/4/12, 12:34 AM
vbspurs said...: Oh! Richard DAWSON. For a minue I thought the atheist had snuffed it.

...all I remember from poor Richard Dawson was that he gave women inappropriately lingering mouth kisses in Family Feud. He will be missed, RIP.; 6/4/12, 4:28 AM
Christopher in MA said...: Well, I have a great deal of interest in Nazi Germany (specifically before 1939 - after the invasion of Poland, I get bored with it all. Except for the extermination camps, but that's a different story), but I will not get between Saint Croix and Quaestor except to say I enjoyed both your comments.

I expect, gentlemen, that you've both read Sir Ian Kershaw's 2 volume biography and Richard Evans' trilogy about the rise and fall of the Reich. I enjoyed both. You?

BTW, since nobody's mentioned it - after HH was cancelled, John Banner and his wife decided to move back to his native Austria. They packed up, flew over and landed in Vienna. One hour later (more or less), Banner dropped dead of a heart attack.

Victoria! How wonderful to have you back, dear lady. I've missed you.; 6/4/12, 6:08 AM
Johanna Lapp said...: Robert Clary (LeBeau) survived cancer, the concentration camp and the typecasting that ended his career. He's the last one left.

Hogan, Kinchloe, Newkirk, Carter. All gone.

Schulz, Klink, Hochstetter, Burkhalter, Fraulein Helga. All gone.

Did you know that Leonid Kinskey (Sascha from "Casablanca") played a Russian POW in the "Hogan's Heroes" pilot? He opted out of the series.; 6/4/12, 6:29 AM
X said...: quaestor, did you not notice that the facts you quote were someone's opinions?; 6/4/12, 8:11 AM
Amartel said...: RIP Newkirk. Oh, and I looved LeBeau. He friended all the German Shepherds, cooked the great food, and had the best accent. Hogan was like the Hawkeye Pierce of that show, which got kind of old after a while but at least the show didn't get sanctimonious about it like MASH did. The only character he was afraid of was the Russian lady (known amongst my siblings and i as Hogan Dahlink.); 6/4/12, 1:46 PM