Sonner said: "He's gone on his own. I'm not sure what he's doing or who he's talking to. I cannot go forward speaking to the public about George Zimmerman and this case as representing him because I've lost contact with him."
Uhrig said he's "not doing well emotionally."
Meanwhile, Zimmerman has a website: here. He's trying to collect donations, and he says: "I am attempting to respond to each and everyone of my supporters personally." Speaking so freely... it's not the way a lawyer would tell you to deal with a potential prosecution.
At his home page, there's a set of links, one of which is "My Race." If you click, you get to a picture of an American flag and the quote, under the heading "My Race": "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." — Thomas Paine. There's also the Edmund Burke quote — which appears on every page — "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men to do nothing."
I'm not a psychologist. Perhaps you are. I won't say how this strikes me. What do you think?
ADDED: From the Orlando Sentinel:
The lawyers said Zimmerman called Sean Hannity of Fox News without consulting them. He also called the special prosecutor in the case, something the attorneys said they'd never have told him to do....
Uhrig added that he thinks Zimmerman is going through post-traumatic stress and is "largely alone... he's at least emotionally alone.... I will not tell you where George Zimmerman is, because I don't know."
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171 comments:
Looks like the mob will get its pound of flesh.
How do we even know the website belongs to George Zimmerman? According to godaddy.com’s domain name search, it’s registered to Domains By Proxy, LLC which means that it could belong to anyone.
If it's really Zimmerman's web site, I'd say he's in fear of his life, under tremendous pressure, and because of that isn't making the best decisions.
Zimmerman is getting the Full Court Alinsky, quite posssibly for doing nothing more than defending himself from a Nigga wannabe (there are new beating incidents in Portland OR, and Gainesville "for Trayvon").
If Mr Zimmerman is smart, he's with his mother's relatives in Peru.
Ann Althouse said...
I'm not a psychologist. Perhaps you are. I won't say how this strikes me. What do you think?
I think Mr Zimmerman is reflecting on the irony that, even though he was involved in an initiative to improve race relations, he is being thrown off the bus like Zero's grandmother.
WV "hodate" When you want a girlfriend experience at bargain prices.
Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that garage is furiously wanking off right now?
I,m half crazy, and if I had been cleared by the cops, caught by the blog mob, lied about by Matt Layer, and hated on by a racist mob, I would head for the hills too.
What difference does it make now. He was done when they showed Trayvon in his peewee football picture.
I think he should get a good lawyer that he can trust. Regarding an earlier Althouse post about John Derbyshire, I've notice that there are in fact some profiles in courage coming forward to at least partially defend JD. Mark Steyn and Roger Kimball if anyone is interested.
If he's lucky he'll get into a fake arguement with George and Cindy Anthony, get some breast implants and hire Jose Baez.
Absent that, the edutcher move to Peru sounds good.
I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation for all this.
If Mr Zimmerman is smart, he's with his mother's relatives in Peru.
Seriously. Bounty on your head that no one in the govt seems to care about? Head for the hills.
Well, garage is thrilled.
I suspect a suicide, but what do I know.
Looks like garage has a thrill up his leg!
@Pogo Yes, that's the thing I won't say.
Between Pogo saying that the "the mob will get its pound of flesh"...
...mariner saying that Zimmerman's "in fear of his life"...
...and of course, the dominant asshole of the bunch, edutcher chimes in by calling Martin "a Nigga wannabe."
All of these comments merley illustrate just how hateful and ignorant you really are.
And maybe somebody can explain how this collection of racist jerks somehow knows so much about what happened that night?
Were any of you there?
Other than what everyone has read via the internet or newspapers...what give you such insight into the actual actions that took place?
You should all be ashamed.
Seriously. Bounty on your head that no one in the govt seems to care about? Head for the hills.
That was my thought as well. I also question the proprietary of the attorneys’ action in holding a press conference. If you’re going to terminate your representation of a client because you cannot get ahold of him, it seems to me there are much better ways to do it that.
Anciently, civilizations would put virgins, kids, or selected individuals on an alter and slit their throats to appease some god, help the crops, increase fertility.
They were all barbaric, in our modern view.
But the truth is that we're not any different.
We sacrifice whoever gets in the way of our gods.
I'd at least Facebook my attorneys to let them know I'm heading to the hills.
It strikes me as a scared man reaching out to try to tell people he's not a bad person.
I can't imagine how it must feel to be an individual who is selected by the liberal/left organism to have the spotlight of hatred shone on you. To have yourself made the national poster boy for evil conservative whites - when you are a mixed-race Democrat!
I'd say he's getting justifiably paranoid and seriously considering going into hiding or leaving the country because he's become a symbol and if he hits prison for any time at all, he's probably going to be killed.
He's also probably unjustifiably paranoid and getting weird advice from all types from every angle. I would imagine he feels pretty ill all day, every day.
So he really has to trust the system under the circumstances, that politics won't rule the day, and if this were your one life, would you? The first thing they did with OJ was get it transferred out of Brentwood and into downtown L.A. so they could control the jury makeup.
He may calm down or he may end up being like one of those 60s types that didn't show up again in the 90s.
For his sake, I really hope his Latino roots are active so he can get papers, but they probably aren't.
And maybe somebody can explain how this collection of racist jerks somehow knows so much about what happened that night?
Given that his story has been consistent while the pro-Trayvon story has demonstrated that it will lie, incessantly.
Do I know what happened?
No.
Is it what the press tried to claim?
Heck no.
You should all be ashamed.
Yes, mommy.
Don't forget that his father was a judge, so he's probably getting some free legal advice from that source.
Take the "We will fuck you up" threat you got and multiply it by a million or so.
At the first opportunity
the lawyers bailed on an emotionally distraught client who is in serious jeopardy from the law and the public.
Do they give weasel injections in law school?
Yes, persecuted or a guilty conscience?
What strikes me is how seemingly little support there is around him.
Where are the people buoying his spirits, protecting him, speaking for him, etc...Usually there's a large cohort of such people.
Why is HE asking for money?
Dumping lawyers, as a first thing, is better than killing them.
Well, garage is thrilled
A dead kid and his unstable killer on the loose isn't very thrilling.
What's with talking w/ Hannity? Some sort of insanity defense?
I sell my manhood cheaply and offer special discounts on St. Crispin's Day. One of the secrets of a long life is not only prudent cowardice, but also hanging out only with people who have no wish to be king of the walk. "I don't take no shit from nobody." There's a motto that's right up there with "Hold my beer and watch this.".....Someone here observed that this is a tale of two jerks who couldn't get out of each other's way.......I wouldn't particularly care to associate with either Trayvon or Zimmerman. I think there's a good possibility that Zimmerman might be innocent, but there's also a good possiblity that he might be a flake....I cast some blame on his attorneys. They should never have quit the case in such a way as to make Zimmerman look like a flake, which, as noted above, he very well may be.
If Martin had been white...the racists here would be screaming for the Latino's ass on a platter.
And you all know it, too.
Those lawyers bailed fast. Pussies.
Don't forget that his father was a judge, so he's probably getting some free legal advice from that source.
Could he be so well advised that he is purposely clouding things at every conceivable legal juncture to give him every chance for some piece of evidence or the conviction to be tossed.
Calls the prosecutor, says has legal advisers, doesn't have representation. A prosecutor would have to proceed very carefully.
Yesterday he included a photograph of the graffiti someone spray painted on a black cultural center building at Ohio State University that read "Long Live Zimmerman". I don't necessarily think anything bad should be read into that, as he may have just come across the photo without the context. But, that shows the dangers of having this web site.
Dude needs to be lawyered up.
***
BTW, in my local Cleveland paper they ran a profile of a neighborhood watch leader who does things a bit differently from Zimmerman: A block club leader in Cleveland who runs a tight ship
Smith doesn't take the law into his hands. His residents know not to go chasing after strangers -- although they do let suspicious-looking visitors know that drug sales won't be tolerated on their block.
"If I see something that looks suspicious, I call the police," says Smith, a retired Ford safety engineer.
Tracking down suspects is "the police's job, that's that not my job," he adds. "I do not own a gun."
Smith's weapons of choice are phone calls, and reams and reams of paperwork documenting his efforts.
If you click over to the article, you'll see how much good he's done for his block.
I don't know what exactly happened to cause Trayvon to be killed, but this all could've been avoided if Zimmerman had taken that man's approach.
As Bill Cosby said: "Without a gun, I don’t see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself. The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations."
I don't post any of this to suggest that guns should be banned. I own two guns myself. But I don't go patrolling neighborhoods with a gun.
(BTW, I happen to be acquainted with the man profiled in the article. The article doesn't mention it, but he operates an airport limo business that I've used a few times, and he's a very impressive man. And, yes, he runs a tight ship.)
damikesc "Given that his story has been consistent while the pro-Trayvon story has demonstrated that it will lie, incessantly."
Got a link?
"I don't take no shit from nobody." There's a motto that's right up there with "Hold my beer and watch this."
LMAO!
Love,
"Other than what everyone has read via the internet or newspapers...what give you such insight into the actual actions that took place?"
The police report is a good place to start.
"All of these comments merley illustrate just how hateful and ignorant you really are."
Is your screen name meant to be ironic or sarcastic? I get those two confused.
If Martin had been white...the racists here would be screaming for the Latino's ass on a platter.
Oh, bullshit. If Martin had been white no one outside of the Orlando area would have even heard the story, and it wouldn't even have made a big splash here.
Best case scenario, he's left the country. Worst case, what Pogo said. Killing another person, even in self defense, would be hard enough to live with for anyone with a conscience. Even policemen go through professional counseling when they shoot someone. And they get an inquiry to determine if it was justifiable. How could anyone survive all that hate alone?
...and if I had been cleared by the cops....
Well: The lead investigator probing the deadly shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin wanted neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman arrested and charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, ABC News reports.
I pray I am wrong about this. But it smells of desperation and great fear and a man feeling cornered.
Last week would have been a good time for an Atticus Finch. Instead we got the man introducing the movie about Atticus, and an Internet full of Walter Cunninghams.
I find it all terribly sad, that we have fallen so far in such a short time.
This is a tragedy, still in motion, that we will look back on and talk about forever.
But what will we say, in the future, that we should be doing now?
LoafingOaf, the most powerful thing civilization has going for itself is organization. Thus the power of the phone and the ability to call back-up.
This reminds me of the show "Castle" which my wife likes and I tolerate. Every show the suspects sing like canaries when interviewed by the cops and my wife and I have a game we play where the first person who blurts out "that person needs an attorney" gets one point and we total them up at the end of the show and settle up our bet. Zimmerman is totally stupid for not shutting the f*ck up and not going through his attorneys for EVERYTHING and will be penalized for it whether he deserves it or not.
edutcher " Facts are a bitch":
Fact: Business Insider touted the bogus Martin Trayvon photo as accurate in a story on how the media is badly reporting the Trayvon Martin saga. Their source for the photo: white power message board Stormfront. It is a fake.
*But the "Trayvon Martin" the page belongs to lists his school as Myers Middle School. Martin, who grew up in Miami Gardens, went to Norland Middle and Highland Oaks Middle schools. The bogus page probably belongs either to another Trayvon Martin, or to a kid who renamed his page in tribute.
"And if Love had his/her/its way, Zimmerman would be swinging from a lamppost or what's left of him would have been dragged from an alley."
I've never said or intimated anything of the kind.
Like everyone else here, I only know what I've read.
And part of what we all know is this:
Zimmerman was driving around his neighborhood carrying a loaded 9MM Glock.
Why carry a loaded gun if you're just "patrolling" and can easily call in any suspicious behavior or people?
And if you do see anyting of the kind, why not call the cops and leave it at that? (Didn't the dispatcher tell him he did not need to continue following the kid?)
Cops call for back up...why confront and handle such a matter on your own?
Does that sound smart to you or anyone else here?
It's YOU and others here that somehow think you know all of the facts and are absolutely certain Zimmerman acted in self defense or in a rightious manner.
Explain how do you know that?
He should have been arrested the night it happened, for starters. He should have been arrested before now.
Get on with it.
He was let off on the stand your ground defense which most people later including the author of the bill discredited.
Poorly handled. To say the least.
The mob wants it's blood. The race mongers are fanning the flames, aided and abetted by the Democrats and their post-racial president.
All that's needed is the guillotine.
Icepick "Oh, bullshit. If Martin had been white no one outside of the Orlando area would have even heard the story, and it wouldn't even have made a big splash here."
And you base this on what?
Sue D'Nhym - And you know what really happened?
How?
Explain it to everybody.
Provide your sources of information,
Love: And part of what we all know is this:
Actually no. You don't know this.
Zimmerman was driving around his neighborhood carrying a loaded 9MM Glock. Why carry a loaded gun if you're just "patrolling" and can easily call in any suspicious behavior or people?
1) Zimmerman was not on duty that night
2) Zimmerman has a carry permit that's not dependent on his role as Neighborhood Watch.
3) You are a stupid bitch
There is nothing more painful to me than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.
This whole thing is getting its second wind. Time for BO to provide more words of wisdom.
He could turn this into a Sister Soljah moment but I doubt it.
Ya know, my neighbor here in rural South Carolina is a true-blood, Red State, ultra-conservative that treats his guns "better than people" (his quote). I love the guy. Anyhow, he said the best thing I've heard about the Martin-Zimmerman Situation:
"That kid is dead. And we know he was killed by Zimmerman. Trayvon's parents hurtin'. Zimmerman's family hurtin'. And everyone else just acting a damn fool. God help us all."
'Nuff said...
Goodness you're not going to start the outrage machine again are you? We know we know: that was Jesse Jackson.
Old news.
No longer shocking.
New piece of gum please.
And you base this on what?
You want me to go through the last several years of police reports from the Greater Orlando Metropolitan Area and find all the times some hispanic shot a white and the national news media made a sensation out of it? No thanks. You want the counterfactual, then find it yourself. You should have plenty of murders to look through. You can start with Crazy Joe Spazziano, work your way through the Deltona Massacre, and then onto the more prosaic stuff that only shows up as stats on the local newspaper's graphics.
...
Also, when did one bad report on Business Insider (oooo, major news organ there) match up against NBC News (and its spin-off MSNBC), ABC News and the CNN family of networks continually mis-reportiing the story in a way designed to skew the story in one particular way?
"This is a tragedy, still in motion, that we will look back on and talk about forever.
But what will we say, in the future, that we should be doing now?"
A tragedy that was exploited by the liberal media and Obama to advance the meme that we are still a white racist country. Maybe we(the liberal media/Obama) shouldn't have done that.
Psychologically and emotionally, I run on a pretty even keel, but I'm not sure how I'd react if:
-I were responsible for another's death and in imminent danger of being arrested and charged with some form of homicide;
-there were a "wanted dead or alive" bounty on my head;
-I were nearly universally despised by and eviscerated in the national media;
-the president of the United States wanted my fellow citizens to search their souls for the answer to why someone like me had been allowed to kill the son he never had;
-the nation were in danger of erupting in a racial conflagration because of something I had done.
I hope Zimmerman has the presence of mind to surround himself with all the professionals he needs.
sydney - "Killing another person, even in self defense, would be hard enough to live with for anyone with a conscience. Even policemen go through professional counseling when they shoot someone."
That's the liberal perspective..that someone who kills someone in accordance to laws or war, justifiably so ---is forever tormented and riven with grief ----if they have a conscience.
The actual perspective is few who kill are troubled a bit by it...if they think the killing was necessary and their job/duty/self defense to do so. They remember their 1st kill, but not many of them - in a griefstricken way.
Bishop Niemoller wrote that he was troubled by some deaths in the German justice system...but he acknowledged before he became a minister, he was a superb killer himself in WWI. As a submariner, he was executive officer on a "Boot" that sank a Brit troopship and was commended for actions risking his life and his crew harassing 3 Brit ships that came in trying to rescue the men...until the cold water had killed all the thousands in the water.
Niemoller said he regretted the war, regretted the necessity, but never regretted his actions. Had he not worked to finish off the thousands, he would have allowed those troops to kill his countrymen at the trenches. So by the perverse laws of war, what he did was right and moral.
The cops? The ones interviewed later say they felt relief when they dropped the bad guy, then anxiety if the shooting was a good one, then big relief and celebration of the shooting was judged proper in line of duty.
@Love: If you only know what you read, then you are badly misinformed. Zimmerman was not patrolling the neighborhood. He was out on an errand when he spotted Trayvon....There are parts of his story and his past behavior that are problematic, but he was not patrolling the neighborhood with a loaded gun......I think it's significant that so many of the reported facts have turned out to be inaccurate. Why is no one demanding justice for the two dead black men that Ray Lewis and his companions drove away from? Can you name one famous black woman who considered Mike Tyson gulty and publicly said so. People are presumed innocent unless they're my enemies.
"I think the most relevant question is what George Zimmerman should be doing now. And that is: not calling the prosecutor's office, not calling the media, listening to his attorneys, and bottom line--not going rogue."
Is that what he would do if he were guilty/innocent? Religious/worldly? Life-grasping/suicidal?
Really, aren't you embarrassed to be so shallow?
Icepick: And you base this on what?
You want me to go through the last several years of police reports from the Greater Orlando Metropolitan Area and find all the times some hispanic shot a white and the national news media made a sensation out of it? No thanks.
Then turn it around - every year, approx 9,000 black youths (like Treyvor Martin) are killed by other black youths.
9,000. So when is the last time the black community and the MSM turned it into a national story? Have they ever?
So, if Zimmerman had been black, we wouldn't even know Martin had been shot dead in Florida.
There will be many things to say in the future.
One thing I hope we'll say is that law enforcement is a job for trained, uniformed police for a reason, and that when you've reported your suspicions to them and the dispatcher tells you the police are on their way and not to pursue, you don't.
Similarly, when two cops are physically on top of you (Oscar Grant) and telling you to surrender, you should do so, because you've clearly lost control of the situation and your resistance will not get it back. On the contrary.
Can we say these things now?
@Fen: Some of us (black folks) who have been the community organizing (and that IS NOT a bad thing) arena in predominately black, urban area have been screaming about black-on-black crime for a LONG time. For over 10 years I worked on prevention (especially dealing with black gangs) in Detroit. Yes we would get the occasional local news paper article pointing us out, but other than that, ZILCH... NADA... It was disheartening many times. But let me tell ya, there are a sizable number of black folks that have been working against and screaming about black-on-black crime. But we "gets no love". =(
Zimmerman is not a safe person, as his lawyers just discovered.
He is getting what he can get from them for several days, and then not answering phone calls after that, effectively handling his own case but not releasing his initial attorneys from their responsability to him.
The lawyers had to get some clear status, so they did not abandon their MIA client, but they suspended speaking on his behalf, awaiting his needing to use them again. He knows their phone number.
IMO Zimmerman is a loner who is always looking for fresh opportunities to claim rewards, but he does not want to share credit for them with anyone.
Lawyers encounter this type of client who comes into the office saying they don't want a lawyer, but they do want several days of legal advice from a lawyer to see if they need a lawyer or not.
Translated, that means they want detailed legal advice and information about the law, but the want to handle their legal problems themselves and thereby show that they are smarter than the lawyer that they just used.
Zimmermans's weakness will be that novice loners seldom do a good job, because they do not have instincts that develop over many years handling the situations he faces.
I can teach wrestling theory and wrestling moves to a boy, but he will not be able to compete and win until he is in year 2 or 3 of competition. EXPERIENCE is everything. Answers seem to be there faster than the questions after that time spent.
Trial lawyers are invariably amused by the spectacle of one of these loner/user clients who later goes over to a local Law School and hires himself the famous Professor who wrote the book on that area of law.
The Professors with no trial experience are literally helpless, but always spouting controlling precedents as if we don't know them, but when specific actions are the subject they cannot guess what to do next or what to say.
I predict Zimmerman is going to run into more trouble doing things his way, just like he did when the Martin teenager he was shadowing was not intimidated at all by the neighborhood watch genius because Trayvon knew he had a right to be there and he knew he was innocent of guilt. Zimmerman would not have expected that and he had no experience in reacting to that possibility. aren't all unfamiliar skinny black teens in hoodies wandering around looking lost searching for the right unit are criminals...right, right?
Where is the confirmation that these guys -- who give the impression of chasing after the ambulance -- where ever formally Zimmerman's lawyers? (That is a wholly separate issue of "withdrawing" from a case when no case has been brought in court.)
But based on what this circus of a press conference they gave, someone in Florida needs to brings ethics charges against them.
"If Martin had been white...the racists here would be screaming for the Latino's ass on a platter.
And you all know it, too."
Fantasy land. You think a Latino never killed a non-latino white? You ought to be able to find all sorts of examples of demands for retribution, so find some.
The actual, for real, reaction to someone getting killed in self-defense (which is generally always a bit unclear, but from the beginning the police had no case for something more) is usually something nearer to bemoaning the horrible, unfair, tragedy of people who do something dumb that turns out to be terminal. The person who got killed doesn't have to be at fault in any way, for that to be the reaction.
Why? Because no one would decide to make a national cause about how it meant more than that. And *you* know it.
There isn't any reason to think that ANY of this was about race, and *you* know it.
That was all lies, and everyone knows it, but it's such an *inconvenient* truth, are you going to ignore it? More fun to call people racists and make up stories about how they'd react if it was only them?
At this point we don't even know if it really is Zimmerman making these calls.
"...aren't all unfamiliar skinny black teens in hoodies wandering around looking lost searching for the right unit are criminals...right, right?"
Heh.
Maybe it's just because I'm not a 6 foot black skinny young man who is just *lost*, but 5 foot middle aged blond women who are lost don't punch someone in order to get directions home.
If George Zimmerman had been named "Jorge Jesus Zimmerman", you never would've heard of this case. Or if Martin had been White.
And that's the fact jack.
And I maintain that it is not shallow to want Zimmerman to shut up and work with his attorneys
I'd say he's got some pretty strange attorneys. Why would they give that press conference? Seemed pretty inappropriate.
"Icepick "Oh, bullshit. If Martin had been white no one outside of the Orlando area would have even heard the story, and it wouldn't even have made a big splash here."
"And you base this on what?"
Reality.
We hardly even hear about the truly amazingly horrific shit that happens. Some innocent person getting into an altercation with someone who is carrying and who gets shot and the police don't call it murder... we'd never have heard of it. Not ever.
when you've reported your suspicions to them and the dispatcher tells you the police are on their way and not to pursue, you don't.
He called it in and we really have no idea what happened after that. Didn't Martin's gf say Martin confronted Z? It's quite possible that he did not pursue after that.
I wouldnt' be surprised if Z is loosing it at this point. The reaction to this has been pretty much insane.
9,000. So when is the last time the black community and the MSM turned it into a national story? Have they ever?
I went looking into this a little the other day. There actually has been some hullabaloo about this in the black community at times. There have even been marches and whatnot.
Why, Jesse Jackson hisownself even started working to reduce the amount of black-on-black violent crime. That was back in 1993 or so.
Apparently it hasn't worked very well.
Love said...
And if Love had his/her/its way, Zimmerman would be swinging from a lamppost or what's left of him would have been dragged from an alley.
I've never said or intimated anything of the kind.
Like everyone else here, I only know what I've read.
10 days ago, when the story hit its peak, Love was here disputing the facts and refusing to entertain the questions everybody presented and did nothing but belch up the Lefty contention that Zimmerman had gunned down a helpless kid.
What a liar!
Maybe it's just because I'm not a 6 foot black skinny young man who is just *lost*, but 5 foot middle aged blond women who are lost don't punch someone in order to get directions home.
I don't know what happened after Zimmerman got out of his SUV to confront Trayvon, but I think what happened before that is that they were both looking at each other with suspicion. In Trayvon's case, I think he was probably afraid. Zimmerman, it seems, was not afraid, as he jumped out of his vehicle with a gun, self-appointed cop on the hunt. (I could be wrong.)
If I'm walking alone at night and a stranger in a strange vehicle is tracking me, I'm gonna be pretty worried about it. If the guy then gets out of the vehicle, I'm gonna be telling myself this might get violent.
Zimmerman should never have gotten out of his vehicle.
The man is in danger. Why would he not disappear.
"Sue D'Nhym - And you know what really happened?"
I am not understanding your question. Are you asking how I know what really happened with Sharpton and assorted Democrats fanning the flames of violence and racial discord? Easy- by turning on the TV and watching it on the news. By opening papers, including the NY Times, and reading what they are saying.
On the other hand, if you are talking about what happened between Zimmerman and Trayvon, I haven't the foggiest, and no matter which one (or both) was in the wrong or at fault, it is irrelevant to the intentional mob incitement that is occurring currently.
@T-steel
Welcome.
""That kid is dead. And we know he was killed by Zimmerman. Trayvon's parents hurtin'. Zimmerman's family hurtin'. And everyone else just acting a damn fool. God help us all.""
Well-stated.
Sue DnHym...Your fears are clouding your eyesight.
How many Zimmermans are dead from roaming black mobs lynching them?
And how many unarmed Martins are dead from roaming Zimmermans shooting them in the chest?
The violence is the issue that the courts must act to take a firm control over. But it's the violence against suspicious black teenage men. Not the violence against Zimmermans.
CAIR is still demanding protection of Muslims from mobs of Christians hating them after Major Hassan shooting many unarmed soldiers in the chest.
But the dead soldiers at Ft Hood were the ones in need of the protection from the Major Hassans. The Muslims claims of threats and fears were just a cover story seeking sympathy, like the Zimmerman's drumbeat of PR are now.
9,000. So when is the last time the black community and the MSM turned it into a national story? Have they ever?
Can you please cite a source? I'm looking at FBI data for 2009 and I don't see those kinds of numbers. Of course I'm only looking at murder tables, so I don't know if lesser offenses (manslaughter and such) are included.
My data source is here.
Also, I may have to amend my previous remark. FBI shows a big drop in unlawful killing over the last 20 or so years. I haven't been able to break it down by race of victim and perp yet, though, nor have I adjusted for population or population by age bands. Still, something good has been going on overall.
One sad thing is that all the neighborhood watch groups are having to do damage control in the face of so very many people earnestly explaining how NO ONE ought to ever care about suspicious people in the neighborhood, because that's not their JOB.
When the story was that Zimmerman *confronted* Martin or was chasing him around or "stalking" him or whatever... that almost made sense. But now it sounds entirely possible that Zimmerman was doing no more than what the neighborhood watch organizations claim they do. They call the police and give a location. They very well may try to keep track of the location of the person they called about. If Zimmerman didn't approach or confront Martin, then he was following those rules.
That's at least a possible story. We don't *know* that it was any different than that.
But how many people here have argued that Zimmerman didn't need to have approached or confronted anyone, that simply being a creepy dude wanna-be policeman who *inserts himself* in the situation (I have a very clear memory of that "inserts himself" thing) he was at fault. No matter what. Full stop.
People arguing themselves into corners have essentially passed judgment on all neighborhood watch type efforts everywhere.
was shadowing was not intimidated at all by the neighborhood watch genius because Trayvon knew he had a right to be there
Uh no....
People arguing themselves into corners have essentially passed judgment on all neighborhood watch type efforts everywhere.
These activists groups have long argued that neighborhood watch is covertly racist.
Using the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting Data Online tool, I'm seeing that there were 14,748 murders and non-negligent manslaughters in 2010 (the last year of data available on this tool). That's the lowest number since 1968 (13,800). In 1969 the number was 14,760. That 2010 number is for a significantly larger population. The numbers peaked in 1991 at 24,703. So things are getting better, despite all the wailing. unfortunately this doesn't seem to allow for a breakdown by race (of victim and perp), and the other site didn't include non-negligent manslaughter, so more work would be necessary unless someone else has a link.
"I don't know what happened after Zimmerman got out of his SUV to confront Trayvon,"
I thought he got out to check the address numbers to give an accurate location to the police. In any case, what we know is he got out of his truck. We do not know that he got out of it for a particular purpose.
"but I think what happened before that is that they were both looking at each other with suspicion. In Trayvon's case, I think he was probably afraid."
He was on the phone to his girlfriend... what did he say to her so that you don't have to guess how Martin felt in his secret heart.
"Zimmerman, it seems, was not afraid, as he jumped out of his vehicle with a gun, self-appointed cop on the hunt. (I could be wrong.)"
Wrong or not, I wonder if it bothers you do paint a picture of aggression, the gun *out*, and a person hunting.
For someone who thinks he could be wrong, you freely paint a picture of malice and premeditation.
"If I'm walking alone at night and a stranger in a strange vehicle is tracking me, I'm gonna be pretty worried about it. If the guy then gets out of the vehicle, I'm gonna be telling myself this might get violent."
Me too. But I have a hard time getting from being "pretty worried" that someone is going to get "violent" to a confrontation. How does that logic work? Scary, creepy guy creeping you out? You ring a door bell or you call the cops on your cell phone.
That would be an amusing set of 911 calls, no?
"Zimmerman should never have gotten out of his vehicle."
Or maybe he should have never inserted himself into the situation or presumed to watch out for his neighbors. We'd all be safer if no one did that. Hm?
Or are you trying to claim that it is reasonable to assume that a black youth will respond to scrutiny with violence and a man can't get out of his vehicle without being responsible for what happens after, simply on account of he got out of his vehicle?
Walking back the point where Zimmerman's culpability originates gets sort of silly after a while.
There was a rally here in Akron last week for a 17 year old football player who was shot and killed by a passerby. It was originally intended as a Trayvon Martin rally, but the organizers changed its focus after the local shooting. A quote from one of the organizers:
“I believe this [Brewer] situation is worse, because it’s black-on-black crime,” said Darrita Davis, president of the grass-roots, all-volunteer group. “17-year-old Trayvon Martin, 17-year-old Willie Brewer. They’re one in the same. It could have been anybody’s son.”
It didn't get anywhere near the attention it deserved. It's staggering how much violence has touched the lives in just one neighborhood of one medium-sized city.
Synova: At the time, Zimmerman believed he was dealing with someone hyped up on drugs and a criminal. There was no good reason to approach. If Martin had not been Martin and really been that dangerous criminal Zimmerman thought he was, Zimmerman would be dead.
How many Zimmermans are dead from roaming black mobs lynching them?
It seems the Z's are wisely in hiding, so none. Thank god. Because this thing is already sad, and ugly and it could get uglier still. It would be nice if someone gave a damn about calming people down instead of stirring shit up.
People arguing themselves into corners have essentially passed judgment on all neighborhood watch type efforts everywhere.
That's a consequence of using anything and everything to try to argue 'your side' once you've decided what that is. People will label perfectly normal behavior as crazy, so they can label Z as crazy. 'oh my god he called the police too many times' in one breath and 'he should have called the police and let them handle it like this other awesome guy' in the next. The police aren't everywhere and we don't really want them to be.
Ann Althouse said...
This is a tragedy, still in motion, that we will look back on and talk about forever.
But what will we say, in the future, that we should be doing now?
Perhaps we should have allowed the legal system run its course. Lynching is such an ugly thing. I read "The Oxbow Incident" in school and I have seen the attempted lynching of a friend, helped head it off, and have learned it's not something anyone wants to know up close and personal.
Fen, I can't find anything to back up your 9,000 in the FBI stats for the year 2009. According to this table there were 6,556 black murder victims in the USA that year. You will note that total on this page (13,636)does note seem to include non-negligent manslaughter. The other database lists all MURDERS AND NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER for 2009 as being 15,399. Even if all the non-negligent homicides were black it wouldn't get the total to 9,000, and not all murderers of black citizens are black themselves, though it appears that almost 91% of them are for crimes where the FBI had information about the race of the murderer.
The number is large, probably over 6,000 in 2009, but not 9,000. Not unless you can show me other stats from a credible source.
Fen said...
Zimmerman was driving around his neighborhood carrying a loaded 9MM Glock.
It wasn't a Glock. It was a Kel-Tec PF-9.
"Why carry a loaded gun if you're just "patrolling" and can easily call in any suspicious behavior or people?"
Google is your friend.
Zimmerman wasn't -patrolling-. He has a CC permit, was carrying legally and was heading out to a store when he saw Martin.
This is why I absolutely despise trying to debate liberals. None of you actually ever get your facts right, you repeat the most ridiculous bullshit like parrots and it's an actual job trying to educate you.
Get your shit together or STFU.
Fen said...
"Zimmerman was driving around his neighborhood carrying a loaded 9MM Glock."
It wasn't a Glock. It was a Kel-Tec PF-9.
I didn't say that. You got your attribs wrong.
that kid shouldn't be dead right now.
Neighborhood Watch is an idea, not a foot patrol.
Thay are most like the Civilian Air Patrols of pre radar days who scaned the skies for enemy planes using binoculars and reported to the Army Air Force, which alone could send up fighters to intercept the bogies and shoot them down.
The CAP guys did not use AAA because the were not trained enough or experienced in plane silhoutte recognition and would most of the time shoot down friendlies.
Hmmm.
Zimmerman took it on himself to intercept and shoot down a bogey.
"Zimmerman is not a safe person, as his lawyers just discovered." - traditionalguy
Or.
He's a guy caught up in a nightmare where a militant vigilante group has the approval of the AG of the USA + DOJ to put a very public "Dead or Alive" bounty on his head and whose family has gone into hiding for their lives.
You know. One or the other.
Seriously. Where do you get this idiotic crap you're spouting? From your ass?
So, if Zimmerman had been black, we wouldn't even know Martin had been shot dead in Florida.
Here in my city of Cleveland we've got an activist organization called Black On Black Crime.
Oh, and btw, when a white teenager murdered several other white teenagers at a high school in the exurb of Chardon, Ohio, Black On Black Crime and other activists in the ghetto of East Cleveland held a candlelight vigil for them:
"There are many people from our community who feel the pain and tragedy in Chardon," activist Judy Martin said. "Many of us have witnessed fear and the violence perpetrated on innocent people. We understand the shock, heartache, suffering and sadness facing students and their families and the Chardon community."
The people in Chardon are our brothers and sisters, she said.
Black on Black Crime is hosting the vigil at 14660 Euclid Ave.
"We invite everyone to come out and join us," Martin said. "Bring your candles and balloons as we extend our hands of love to Chardon."
Not many people know it, but shortly before the school shooting in Chardon bullets were flying outside a school in East Cleveland and a teen-aged girl was shot in the face and killed. And there's lot of of other black on black violence in the Cleveland area. It was a rather nice gesture of folks in the ghetto to extend their hands in love to the victims of violence in the exurb. Haven't seen anyone in Chardon ever do the same the other way.
"Zimmerman took it on himself to intercept and shoot down a bogey." - traditionalguy
Zimmerman left his vehicle to get a better look at the house number where he was located because he couldn't see it well enough from the street.
At night.
In the rain.
Correcting your nonsense is practically a full time job.
“But what will we say, in the future, that we should be doing now?”
The one thing that we seemingly cannot do: Withdraw from the media-generated mob.
Suicide is a very difficult outcome to predict. I could give you a number of banalities that may sound scholarly and probably intuitive. But the reality is that most people who appear ready to end-it-all, don’t. And many who do take their own lives give no warning what-so-ever.
Zimmerman seems to have friends and a supportive family, at least from a distance. That counts for a lot. (But even saying that seems overly intrusive to me.)
LoafingOaf: I think what happened before that is that they were both looking at each other with suspicion. In Trayvon's case, I think he was probably afraid.
Trayvon was afraid because he knew he had just been spotted casing out houses for robbery (stolen jewelry found in his backpack at school). That's why he doubled-back to attack Zimmerman.
[See? This spouting off bs speculation can work for Zimmerman just as easily as yours]
LoafingOaf: Zimmerman, it seems, was not afraid, as he jumped out of his vehicle with a gun, self-appointed cop on the hunt. (I could be wrong.)
I just love how you think having carry weapon means you're "not afraid" and "looking for trouble". No doubt its projection on your part.
LoafingOaf: Zimmerman should never have gotten out of his vehicle.
Citizens should be able to get out of their vehicle and ask suspicous characters what they are doing in the neighborhood, do they need help, are they lost, etc.
Zimmerman should never have gotten out of his vehicle.
"Synova: At the time, Zimmerman believed he was dealing with someone hyped up on drugs and a criminal. There was no good reason to approach."
Matthew, we don't know that he did.
This is what gets me about this. There was a narrative from the beginning and most of it was wrong. We do not, not whatsoever, *know* that Zimmerman approached Martin.
Synova: My recollection of the 911 call is that Zimmerman was going on about how these assholes always get away before exiting his vehicle with a gun.
I didn't say his gun was drawn. But Zimmerman knew he had a gun and thus probably felt emboldened to confront and chase or track this kid on foot.
Or maybe he should have never inserted himself into the situation or presumed to watch out for his neighbors. We'd all be safer if no one did that. Hm?
Scroll back upthread to my first post, where I link to an article about neighborhood watch done right.
Here we go, more data.
I found the 1995 report from the FBI on crime. In year there were 9,694 black murder victims. So the number has come down substantially.
From the report: Murder is most frequently intraracial among victims and offenders. In 1995, data based on incidents involving one victim and one offender showed that 94 percent of the black murder
victims were slain by black offenders, and 84 percent of
the white murder victims were killed by white offenders.
So, T-Steel, I hope this makes you feel better - there IS progress being made. The only downside is that this appears to be a national trend, thus may or may not be the result of any single given initiative. I have no idea how one could judge the success of such programs objectively.
"Zimmerman took it on himself to intercept and shoot down a bogey."
Right.
He decided to personally take-down the suspicious person he'd called the cops about, even knowing the cops were on the way he decided to go hold Martin, so he got out of his vehicle and went after him in the rainy darkness because he didn't understand that he wasn't trained to use the anti-aircraft guns.
You are firmly committed to this scenario aren't you.
"Got out of his vehicle to check the house number," is just so implausible next to awesome vigilante bad-ass-i-ness, I know.
Sorry, my last link doesn't go exactly where I want - the data cited is on page 14 of the PDF, in a table in the right column.
"I didn't say his gun was drawn. But Zimmerman knew he had a gun and thus probably felt emboldened to confront and chase or track this kid on foot." - LoafingOaf
Nothing like just making shit up.
You aren't impressing anybody.
"Uhrig said he's "not doing well emotionally.""
Perhaps Barack could give him a call.
"Got out of his vehicle to check the house number," is just so implausible next to awesome vigilante bad-ass-i-ness, I know.
Where did this "check the street number" thing come from? That wasn't on the 911 call, was it? And the numbers wouldn't be on the BACK of the houses, where the confrontation took place.
traditionalguy is spouting crap. Making up more crap doesn't refute his crap.
"that kid shouldn't be dead right now."
Of course he shouldn't. It's a horrible, pointless, tragedy.
Unfortunately it seems like a whole lot of people are trying very hard to find a point to the tragedy, or to make one up. Making it *about* something isn't going to fix anything, though.
The poor man must be panicked and feeling so very alone and betrayed. Being crushed by the machine and nowhere to turn to for safety or to even be heard.
He SHOULD head for the hills. If not Peru, there are many places in this country that he could blend in and be accepted without question and possibly even protected. The area where I reside, comes to mind. Not that I'm extending an invitation.
Interesting facts I discovered today - the attached townhouses/condos in that "gated community" sold for 200k at the height of the boom (2007) and are going for just 85-100k today. Crazy huh?
there are many places in this country that he could blend in and be accepted without question and possibly even protected
Fox News studio comes to mind.
But if Zimmerman is so worried about his safety, he could, you know, go to the police? Whoops, scratch that.
ed: So if Zimmerman wasn't confronting or chasing or tracking Trayvon, why the hell did he exit his vehicle with a gun? The police were on the way.
We need a good explanation for it because a kid chatting with his girlfriend on his cell while walking back from a convenience store to see the rest of the NBA All-Star Game with his dad does not strike me as someone who was looking to murder or severely harm someone.
A strange man with a history of violence, who was once ordered to go to anger management courses, who was carrying a gun, and who oddly exited his vehicle after telling a dispatcher that these assholes always get away, does strike me as someone who was looking for trouble.
And such a man not being arrested and charged with something is highly unusual, which is why the family contacted civil rights activists.
"Where did this "check the street number" thing come from?"
My understanding was that Zimmerman or someone in his family said that's what he said.
It's not an established fact, of course it's not, and I wouldn't claim it was. I only mentioned it because people keep stating as fact what Zimmerman's motivation was in his secret heart when he got out of the vehicle.
As for being behind the house... one may well ask WTF Zimmerman was doing there, but it would mean asking WTF Martin was doing there, wandering between houses on his innocent trip to pick up skittles and ice tea and doing nothing NOTHING suspicious beyond wearing a hoodie while black.
Either they were both being anti-social trespassers, or it was a reasonable semi-public place for any person to be.
I couldn't possibly say which it was, only that it doesn't get to be one thing for Martin and something else for Zimmerman.
Where did folks ever get the idea that only the cops can police your neighborhood?
That's false. In some cities, the police won't even come to robberies anymore. The sheriff in my town is proposing exactly that, no different than England and Oakland.
So what are we supposed to do, just hand over our property to thieves?
The hell with that.
Synova, there is nothing in Zimmerman's 911 call that indicates he was looking for a street number.
Further, that neighborhood is composed of town homes (row houses) that share a common area behind and between the units. A sidewalk runs between them.
What apparently happened was that Martin was walking on side walk by the street when Zimmerman spotted him. After noticing he was being tailed, Martin went around to the back side walk to evade Zimmerman. Zimmerman parked his vehicle and followed him around. Here's a site with some diagram's and pictures of the area where the shooting happened. I'm not sure their assumed paths are correct, but it is at least close to what happened.
Loafing Oaf...Where have you been for two days.
It has been lonely here in the comments section wearing my Trayvon hoodie, and for that getting diagnosed as insane, neurotic, stupid, illiterate and full of crap just.
All I did was share my instinctual thoughts coming from a career experiencing the human drama of the legal system.
You said it better than I did. Now you had put your helmet on as the incoming barrage starts.
Synova: ...but it would mean asking WTF Martin was doing there, wandering between houses on his innocent trip to pick up skittles and ice tea and doing nothing NOTHING suspicious beyond wearing a hoodie while black.
Either they were both being anti-social trespassers, or it was a reasonable semi-public place for any person to be.
My goodness. You need to play the 911 call again! Trayvon wasn't behind any houses when Zimmerman started following him. Zimmerman says in the call that Trayvon was looking at HIM and checking HIM out. Trayvon, in other words, was wondering who this guy is following him in the SUV.
Right before Zimmerman exits the vehicle he says "these assholes, they always get away". Then you hear Zimmerman exit the vehicle and start going after Trayvon.
Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"
Zimmerman: "Yes"
Dispatcher: "Okay, we don't need you to do that"
Whatever happened after that, we don't know. But we do know that Trayvon saw Zimmerman, was looking at him as anyone would if they were being followed, and then started to leave when Zimmerman decided to get out of his SUV with a gun and follow him.
If it was self-defense, that needs to be decided by a jury in court.
"Your fears are clouding your eyesight."
I am not afraid of anything right now, you condescending prick. None of this is happening anywhere near me, thank god.
I am, however, disgusted by the recurrence of intimidation by mob and the willingness of others to act like it is no big deal.
traditionalguy, you have been stating that you know exactly what was going on in Zimmerman's mind, you have a tendency to misstate the facts of the case, and you are convinced that the police are involved in a conspiracy as big the Watergate coverup AND the JFK Assasination coverup all in one. You don't just have a point of view, you are either lying about the case or you are delusional.
And equating Zimmerman's actions with Hassan's is asinine.
Had Zimmerman gone into a predominantly black neighborhood and shouted some phrase common to white hispanics while killing everyone in sight, it would be a good analogy. The punks that were recently arrested in Tulsa would be a better analogy for Hassan.
Here? Either a guy overreacted to someone he thought was a bad guy and committed manslaughter, or a guy defended himself against someone who was putting him in mortal danger.
So what are we supposed to do, just hand over our property to thieves?
Why do you think the socialist Left is so tied into their narrative? It's not your property, its the State's.
FBI and Homeland Security are constantly instructing us to be alert. To report suspicious activity related to terrorism.
But we're not supposed to get out of our car and ask a stranger what he's doing wandering around at night in the rain looking at houses? Because that's "looking for trouble"?
The AP story said:
Two years ago, after a black homeless man was beaten by the son of a Sanford policeman, passions soon cooled. The assailant, Justin Collison, initially wasn't charged but eventually was arrested after footage of the episode went viral on YouTube. He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and received probation.
If this subject is germane to the tale of the lawyers press conference, so also is the Daily Caller article entitled: "In 2010 race-related beating case, George Zimmerman pushed to discipline same officers who investigated Trayvon Martin shooting."
If the publicity stunt just pulled off by the most important people in George Zimmerman's life, his lawyers for chrissake, is considered ethical - then sanity is barely hanging on by a thread in the mind of poor George Zimmerman.
wv=backards: "thangs done got turned 'round backards summers."
LoafingRacist: If it was self-defense, that needs to be decided by a jury in court.
No. It does not.
If you want to live in a lawful society, you must abide by the law even if you don't agree with it.
Under Florida law, Zimmerman cannot be arrested or sent to trial unless they have reason to believe he unlawfully used lethal force.
If you want Zimmerman judged by a jury of his peers, you need to show how his use of lethal force was unlawful.
Whining about how it should be won't get you there.
Icepick...The understanding needed to judge another human being is a near religious event. Juries take it very seriously.
We can only speculate from the 1/4 of the facts that are not hidden , while we await the new investigations to decide whether to request an arrest by an accusation, probably of a lesser offense they feel will sell to a Judge who must first find a probale cause that Zimmerman was not in fear of his life or of bodily injury when he executed the Martin's child.
Witnesses have not really been heard from yet. The autopsy which will show the closeness and the angle of the kill shot is being kept secret for now.
We will all know more soon. But speculation is the game we play while we wait, and the Martins wait.
Poor Mr Zimmerman will be fine. No one is oing to kill him and he will soon write his best seller book and then become a regular on Sean Hannity's show.
Icepick - check out this theory
Basically, this guy is saying that Trayvon went home (to the condo at which he was staying) and then went back up the inner sidewalk to confront Zimmerman.
Also, there were likely 2 confrontations. There was one when Zimmerman was still sitting in his truck and one when Zimmerman had walked to the inner sidewalk to follow a running Trayvon.
Zimmerman doesn't trust lawyers, doesn't trust the legal system, and most of all, knows that justice is trumped by race politics in his situation.
He feels he did nothing wrong, therefore he contacted the prosecutors office to gage his chances of being arrested -- trying to take care of himself rather than putting his life in someone else's hands. If he is going to be arrested then go in but if not then disappear completely while he has the chance. Remember, Zimmerman doesn't know these lawyers, he's never met with them personally.
I'd say Zimmerman is freaked out by what happened, and the situation he is in, and who wouldn't be? Knowing that the New Black Panthers are armed and ready to shoot him on sight would likely make him want to disappear.
That said, what should be done now is either some high profile defense attorney, preferably a black, should offer to represent Zimmerman and put him in a safe house and drag out the case at least until after the election. The Obama administration and those who want to see him re- elected have exploited this case to the max to deflect the anger of the black community away from Obama's lack of effort to help the black community, and towards the white community.
Why haven't any high profile lawyers stepped forward? Could it be that lawyers are too threatened by the violent backlash? It's one thing to represent a notorious criminal or someone who is accused of a heinous crime, it's quite another to represent someone who has been targeted by a hit squad, and the rabid Left.
Even if Zimmerman were brought to trial and acquited would he ever be safe from revenge by the Black Panthers? Would the lawyer who got him released ever be safe either? No. Zimmerman's life as George Zimmerman is now over and he knows it so why not try to move on? Why don't Obama and Michelle come out and plead for calm and the rule of law? They should but that'll never happen. That's why I don't respect Obama as a President. He's acting as a politician and that's all.
We know that the Sanford police screwed up, that the law stand your ground law is screwed up, that the media screwed up, but it is Zimmerman will pay the price. I don't believe that Zimmerman set out intentionally to kill Martin, and if Martin had been white there would have been no threat of violence in carrying out justice. Two guys went at it and one ended up dead. Whether it was provoked would have been decided based on the evidence and everyone would move on. That'll never happen in this case.
tradguy - you're on the wrong side of history dude. But keep defending young black hoods.
bagoh - a sizeable minority of the country has lost its freaking mind. Don't lump me in with those fucking lunatics.
Seems to me that he just feels that he can't trust anyone and that seems pretty obvious to me. Listen to the people here who are convinced of his guilt. They occasionally say he should be arrested and go to trial, which would at least be a somewhat reasonable position, although possibly not legal under Florida law and the Constitution, but at least plausible. But the vast majority of the time they are saying he is guilty with no, evidence, easily disprovable "facts" or pure speculation. They don't want justice they want blood.
He has every reason to be extremely paranoid. I would consider him foolish or unbalanced to not be. His country has lost its freaking mind, not to mention it's values.
Some of you people are despicable, you're on the evil side of a lynch mob, and don't deserve the legal protections you are lucky enough to have, or the nation that developed them.
Love: Why carry a loaded gun if you're just "patrolling" and can easily call in any suspicious behavior or people?
You might want to carry a gun if you suspect people are going to punch you in the face and pound your head into the concrete.
As for calling in any suspicious behavior, most cops take 15 or 20 minutes to respond while the response time of a 357 magnum, on the other hand, is 1700 feet per second.
Sorry about the deletion Alex, had to fix at least some of my typos. I always worry about getting someone's comment out of place by doing that. This is the first time it ever happened.
The rehashes of the mundane details of this tragedy as demonstrated in this thread surprises me, since Althouse's contributors are usually on top of the topic.
Want to catch-up? let me recommend:
Zimmerman and Ketman
The Story Unravels: New Questtions About Trayvon Martin's Final Hour
Evidence That Trayvon Martin Doubled Back
And if you have not been following the ongoing contributions by Tom Maguire over at JustOneMinute, then you have some extensive reading time ahead of you.
This case has been politicized, publicized, racialized and analyzed. Does anyone really think that they will at this late date present an argument that will cause their opponent to pause, reconsider, and say "Gee, I never thought of that."....The innocence or guilt of Zimmerman has beome a matter of faith. It's like tryng to explain the transubstantiation of the Host to some fuckng heathen. There is no new evidence or insight that will shake anyone's opinion..... Some years after the Sacco & Vanzetti conviction, a ballistics test was developed. It showed that the gun Sacco admitted to be carrying was the same pistol used in the murder. His supporters claimed that the DA had switched the evidentiary bullets.
tradguy: Poor Mr Zimmerman will be fine. No one is going to kill him
You're so casual about other people's lives.
How about you put up? If Zimmerman is killed because of all this, you send his kids to the college of their choice, full tution and books and housing. Deal?
garage mahal said...
I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation for all this.
Why do you even care, you waste of space? All you care about is the faux justice that will somehow do what? Ausage your collective racist guilt perhaps? Give you the satisfaction that some for revenge has been exacted. The kid is dead, Zimmerman killed him either deliberately or in self-defense. There is no middle ground in this, but yet, you and your pathetic ilk call for blood. You really should be rotting in hell.
The website featuring famous quotes from famous champions of liberty (BTW, the Burke quote is disputed) and his effective dismissal of his attorneys (I assume they were engaged to represent him in regard to possible criminal charge, and not the likely civil actions which may arise) suggest to me a latent paranoid personality under a lot of stress. There would be few who could endure this level of real persecution without internalizing it to some degree. He's not crazy, but he needs counselling.
I don't understand wasting all this time debating the facts when there are so many versions of the facts out there.
Even if Zimmerman is guilty of an unjustified killing, is this really how he should be treated? Is this how you want your society to work? with bounties on peoples' heads? with certain groups calling for race wars? Really? I cannot imagine that there is anyone who thinks the way Zimmerman is being treated is appropriate in a civilized and humane society. If you do think this is ok, you have no understanding of Due Process, and how it must protect everyone - not just those you agree with.
"Murder is most frequently interracial among victims and offenders."
Who else would it be interracial among?
I still think the pungent fact in this mess is that there was allegedly a full clip in his gun and allegedly a discharged cartridge still in the chamber. People who train for close quarters combat shooting (e.g., Soldier of Fortune subscribers) often practice grabbing the gun from the holster with one hand, moving the slide back with the other (chambering the first round) while drawing the gun horizontal to off a quick shot at a close target. For folks who train with this - the motion is so fast you'd swear the shot is off before the gun is out of the holster.
Now I'm not saying that Zimmerman was a quick shot artiste, but the alleged fact that he was walking around with a full clip and chambered round suggests he perceived things to be a bit more dangerous than Disneyland. And the alleged fact that the expended shell was not ejected by the Kel Tec pistol he fired, suggests to me that someone in that encounter had their hand on the slide and prevented it from normally being propelled back and ejecting the spent cartridge. So, this could be Zimmerman executing a close quarters shooting technique while in the clutches of Mr. Martin (and forgetting to let go of the slide), or it could be Mr. Martin's hand on the gun which kept the mechanism from working.
My view of select edited excerpts form the press conference by his lawyers Tuesday made me think that they were not helping him, and if they chose to withdraw, they could have done so quietly, and at least in a way that was helpful to their (former) client. This didn't have a strong "George, please call home" effect - what I heard of it left an insinuation he was way off the reservation and it could be interpreted by Zimmerman, wherever he is and whatever mental state he is enjoying, as an abandonment. That he doesn't need.
Zimmerman's supposed lawyers are completely out of line. They are the ones who need to shut up, even if they've withdrawn.
R Chatt wrote:
We know that the Sanford police screwed up, that the law stand your ground law is screwed up, that the media screwed up...
Firstly, we don't know anything about a "screw up" by the Sanford PD. If you have a theory, let us see it and we'll weigh it for logical consistency, which is the best any of us who comment here are able to do, not knowing first hand anything about this incident.
Secondly, you ought to just say you believe the Florida "stand your ground" statute is screwed up, the you may defend your claim with some facts. We don't agree on that matter. We don't even know whether this is a case of anyone "standing his ground," either Zimmerman or Martin.
Thirdly, the many of his here believe the media, certain national political figures, and certain people who have made careers in the arena of "race relations" have distorted and inflamed this tragedy far beyond the boundaries of objective truth. Nobody knows anything except a handful of persons.
We know that the Sanford police screwed up, that the law stand your ground law is screwed up, that the media screwed up.
Perhaps the most damning proof of the third thing on your list is that you believe the first two.
There isn't actually any evidence that the police screwed up -- and all the available evidence indicates that the Stand Your Ground law is irrelevant to this case.
Talking about paranoia, where does this strong group think that rabid mobs of black men are threatening to lynch everyone come from?
In 1860 in a booming commercial and industrial center called Atlanta the free blacks and the rented slaves were treated well and fit in without a problem.
Then the secessionists raised a paranoid group think that resulted in all black persons being placed under curfew and restricted their travel passes out of fear of a looming uprising that would see all whites murdered in their sleep.
That fear vision was why southern States hated the Yankees who they thought were actually trying to get them all killed.
The last time I mentionned the similarities, I was ridiculed that I did not know it was not 1860.
But being on the wrong side of history is where an Atlantan does not want to go anymore. By 1862Sherman and some midwestern farm boys started in at Shiloh, came on to Murphrysboro, Chickamauga, Chattanooga, Kennesaw Mountain, Peachtree Creek, Ezra Church, Atlanta and finally Jonesboro to get Atlantans break out of their paranoia and understand the point was to fear the Federal Government more than the secessionist's myth of a slave rebellion.
Then an Ohio Senator wrote the 14h Amendment which became non-negotiable since then, except for a brief Plessy approval of separate but equal being equal protection of the laws. Which it was not.
Another Atlantan then courageously calmed down the white paranoia by non-violence in action and we finally ended segregation forever, although they soon killed MLK for winning the struggle.
Everybody just grow up.
Fen has been trolling me for a few days because I felt John Derbyshire, who calls himself a racist, is a racist, and I felt that Derbyshire's breathtakingly racist essay was racist.
Then, he continued to troll me because I saw a tweet about another National Review writer - Robert Weissberg - who is a racist and recently spoke at a white supremacist American Renaissance conference. I googled around about Robert Weissberg and American Renaissance and, as with Derbyshire, I was floored by what a hardcore racist scumbag he is.
Well, I hate to break it to Fen, but Rich Lowry has tonight done the same to Weissberg as he did to Derbyshire:
Regarding Robert Weissberg
By Rich Lowry
Unbeknowst to us, occasional Phi Beta Cons contributor Robert Weissberg (whose book was published a few years ago by Transaction) participated in an American Renaissance conference where he delivered a noxious talk about the future of white nationalism. He will no longer be posting here. Thanks to those who brought it to our attention.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Fen.
BTW, John Derbyshire told Gawker today that he hopes to write essays for the white supremacist Amnerican Renaissance magazine in the future. American Renaissance conferences attract folks like David Duke and neo-Nazis. Sick shit is happening on the right, and you can see it even right here in the Althouse comment sections. In some of these threads it feels like you're crashing a KKK meeting.
"We know that the Sanford police screwed up, that the law stand your ground law is screwed up, that the media screwed up..." I will clarify:
The police screw up -- refers to the reports that Zimmerman was initially to be charged with manslaughter, and the fact that altogether too much information was released to the media. Where did all that 9-11 tapes hysteria come from, except for the fact that the police released that data? That, and all the other info released, resulted in people being removed from the case, etc. a state of complete chaos. IOW, it was not handled professionally.
The stand your ground screw up -- refers to the ambiguity regarding when the principle of the law applies. Just because you feel threatened by someone, does that prove that your life was really at risk enough to justify killing them? Who decides, and what good is it after the fact?
The media screw up -- refers to the media becoming a tool of those whose political agenda is race baiting, by the networks deliberately falsifying the information on the 9-11 tape to make Zimmerman appear to be a racist, and by generally exploiting this tragedy for attention.
whether it's 9000 or 'only' 6000 black teens killed by other black teens isn't the point. the question is can we point to the 6000 times that the media has run with the stories, invented their own 'facts' and deliberately altered evidence to fit their narratives...the 6000 times that a dead-or-alive bounty was put on the head of the shooter...the 6000 times that the president, sharpton, jackson,et al agonized over the situation...the 6000 times that every little detail, known or unknown, was pored over like the frames of the zapruder film...you get the idea and you know what the answer is. this is a co-ordinated, trumped-up political ploy to agitate the torch-and-pitchfork crowds ahead of a national election...and it is despicable.
"I'm not a psychologist. Perhaps you are. I won't say how this strikes me. What do you think?"
Also not a psychologist. But since we are all blog-guessing in this thread:
Z. doesn't trust his lawyers. And he doesn't trust his father, who set up a paypal account. Acting a bit erratically and unadvised - trying to talk to the prosecutor without representation.
Could it be early stage paranoid schizophrenia? He is older then I would expect for first onset, and maybe his erratic actions are due to stress. But didn't he trust his father to set up the paypal account. That could be disorganized thinking.
Loafing Oaf...Where have you been for two days. It has been lonely here in the comments section wearing my Trayvon hoodie, and for that getting diagnosed as insane, neurotic, stupid, illiterate and full of crap just.
It's kinda weird how invested these right wingers are in Zimmerman being a victim.
I don't know what happened. I just know that in the criminal justice system where I live Zimmerman would've been arrested and charged with something...unless there's much better evidence in his favor than we've seen so far. We understand that Zimmerman is claiming self defense, but lots of killers will say that. That doesn't mean there's no reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed. The folks who are insisting there's no probable cause for an arrest and indictment don't know what they're talking about. (Which doesn't mean he'll be convicted!)
The case belongs in court before a judge and jury, and if the jury agrees that it was self defense after being presented all the admissible evidence, then fine.
If they had handled it that way from the start this case would not be on our radar screens. It would be a travesty of justice against the Martin family if this were not to go to court. You all would understand that if it was your son who had been shot to death under such circumstances.
You might want to carry a gun if you suspect people are going to punch you in the face and pound your head into the concrete.
As for calling in any suspicious behavior, most cops take 15 or 20 minutes to respond while the response time of a 357 magnum, on the other hand, is 1700 feet per second.
Don't know where you live, but in parts of this country, and I am pretty sure that includes much of Florida, a lot of people have CCLs, and routinely carry. In one law office I worked in, the firm paid for the attorneys to take the classes, and it was estimated that at any time, maybe 1/4 of them had their guns either on them, or in their desks. At another, maybe that % of the engineers would be packing, which caused a problem, since our head office was near Boston, and they didn't understand the difference in cultures. I, unfortunately, had to interface between the two groups.
Point is that in a lot of this country any more, it is not strange when people are legally carrying concealed hand guns. Many do it on a daily basis. It has little to do with vigilantism, low self esteem, etc., and everything to do with believing in individual responsibility.
It all depends on where you live. A year and a half ago, an attorney I knew was up for a federal post requiring an FBI background check, and it was delayed. I thought that it was his armory. No, apparently that was fine - he took the FBI officers out to shoot his guns, and that was that. Instead, one of his old firms had dawdled get information back. One of the most respected and highest profile attorneys in the state, and has routinely carried concealed for years.
All these lawyers and engineers with CCLs never showed their guns. I only knew about the prevalence indirectly - with the engineers, I told them that I would have to do something if I were confronted with the knowledge, due to directives from the head office near Boston. They used to leave their guns in their cars during the day, but the neighborhood turned, and they couldn't afford to risk someone breaking into their cars for their guns while they were at work.
They all carried, and carried responsibly. No waiving guns around. No pulling guns on innocents (or, anyone for that matter). Just responsible gun ownership.
Finally, the original police report indicated that one of the officers involved was in route to the subdivision at the time of the shooting in response to Zimmerman's calls to the police/911. It changed from "suspicious person" to "shots fired" as he arrived on the scene.
The folks who are insisting there's no probable cause for an arrest and indictment don't know what they're talking about. (Which doesn't mean he'll be convicted!)
The case belongs in court before a judge and jury, and if the jury agrees that it was self defense after being presented all the admissible evidence, then fine.
Except that this is Florida, and not wherever you are from. They cannot legally arrest him, until and if they have probable cause to believe that it was not self-defense. And, that means overcoming all of the evidence in favor of such, such as the police reports, paramedics, forensics, Zimmerman's interview back at the police department. Not just that there is a possibility that it was not self-defense, but that it was somewhat likely, and probably more likely than not, given the evidence that the police and DA had. You don't know what 80% of the evidence is in the case. None of us do, including Martin's family. Zimmermans know a lot more, but not all of it.
The law in Florida was change, I believe in 2005, to put this obstacle in the way of arresting and indicting those claiming self-defense, because of a belief that the police were overzealously throwing people with legitimate self-defense claims into jail, and ruining their lives, just because they had utilized their natural right to self-defense. You may not like what Florida did, but until you can convince a majority of Floridians of the error of their ways, you are stuck with it.
BTW - contrast this with New York, where pretty much every high profile self-defense shotting ends up with the shooter, who legitimately claimed self-defense, ending up in jail, and often prison (often for a gun crime, because he couldn't legally own that firearm, since he didn't personally know the police commissioner or mayor), for defending himself. I would rather live under Florida's self-defense and gun laws than New York's any day. If you prefer the opposite, there are plenty of dying "blue" states with decaying infrastructures, runaway pensions, looming state insolvencies, etc. where you would feel right at home.
Bruce, I did see Alan Dershowitz on TV earlier tonight talking about the differences in Florida law. I can't remember exactly, but I think he was saying that in Florida, if Zimmerman is indicted and is claiming self defense, it next goes before a judge who can grant Zimmerman immunity from prosecution. If the judge doesn't grant immunity, it then would head to a jury trial.
The most important thing for Zimmerman right now is that he gets better representation than those two we saw in the press conference today.
Talking about paranoia, where does this strong group think that rabid mobs of black men are threatening to lynch everyone come from?
From whatever straw man store you buy your straw men at.
On the other hand, the belief that a rabid mob of black men is threatening to lynch Zimmerman comes from the fact that a rabid group of black men has put out a "dead or alive" hit on Zimmerman. :)
So, if Zimmerman commits suicide, will that bother certified malicious liar Al Sharpton? I suppose not: Sharpton's already inspired the murder of Jews, so this is nothing new for him.
"We understand that Zimmerman is claiming self defense, but lots of killers will say that."
-- Do those people have witnesses who back up their statements? That's probably the biggest hurdle for the prosecution. Well, and Zimmerman's injuries.
Covered. In the media.
The mother of a District teenager who was shot and killed by a D.C. police officer last spring has filed a $100 million wrongful death suit against the city.
Eighteen-year-old Ralphael Briscoe was killed in April 2011 after being shot by a member of the D.C. police gun recovery unit in Southeast Washington, police said.
Briscoe had committed no crime and posed no danger to police, said the family's attorney Billy Ponds. The teenager was shot in the lower back and buttocks while running from police, Ponds said.
Al Sharpton nowhere to be found.
whether it's 9000 or 'only' 6000 black teens killed by other black teens isn't the point.
I agree this is a trumnped up controversery. It is also true that many of the people on Zimmerman's side are making shit up.
Example: The stats do not say that 6,000 black teens were killed by 6,000 black teens. They imply that 6,000 blacks were killed by 6,000 blacks. There is no age breakdown in the stats I provided.
If you had looked for those stats you would have seen that fewer than 1,400 black teens were murdered in 2009. There are no stats that I have seen (although I'm sure they're out there somewhere) discussing the age of the known perps in these cases. So your number is off by more thana factor of 4.
The lesson here is that people making up bullshit numbers in defense of George Zimmerman are being just as dishonest and/or stupid as those making up stuff to accuse him.
We understand that Zimmerman is claiming self defense, but lots of killers will say that. That doesn't mean there's no reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed.
And he had evidence in support of his claim, including injuries to himself and at least one eyewitness account that he was getting beaten by Martin. It's not a simple case of the police (more properly, the prosecutor's office) believing his claim based solely on Zimmerman's word. I have yet to see anyone calling for the arrest NOT simply ignore those facts.
Fen "There is nothing more painful to me than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."
As I said earlier: Racism is alive and well on this board.
http://www.kpho.com/story/17347547/family-of-man-killed-in-drive-thru-demands-shooter-be-arrested
Here you go, Love. You can google the race of the shooter. And oddly enough, other than the family, most people are on the side of the shooter.
Fen "There is nothing more painful to me than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."
"As I said earlier: Racism is alive and well on this board."
For quoting Jesse Jackson? You want to clarify that?
Love said...
Fen "There is nothing more painful to me than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."
As I said earlier: Racism is alive and well on this board
Um, love, that quote was said by Jessie Jackson at a meeting of Operation PUSH in Chicago (27 November 1993).
Duh.
Hehe. I just *knew* one of the libtards would fall for that.
But at least we finally got a liberal to admit that Jesse Jackson is a racist.
I get point for that, yes? :)
And seriously, LoafingOaf is a racist pig who hates latinos. And I find his constant use of racial slurs "spic" and "wetback" to be despicable. I really think Ann should ban him for his obvious racism.
Poor Fen. He tried to troll me because I noticed his main man Derbyshire wasn't the only open racist at the National Review, and today it's all over the internet that Rich Lowry had to dismiss another of their writers.
This time it was the lesser-known Robert Weissberg, an overt white supremacist of ten years who gives speeches about white nationalism at conferences for hardcore racists when he's not blogging at National Review Online.
Well, not everyone is covering the news. The right wing bloggers are trying to ignore it, of course.
I found it funny that when leading right wing blogger Instapundit was busy pretending he couldn't access John Derbyshire's viral racist essay he was simultaneously and quietly sending traffic over to a piece by Robert Weissberg. And this while Instapundit is trying to push a general propaganda theme that it is President Obama who is the "racist hatemonger".
If people are wondering why so many folks in these comments sections across the consverative web sites, and including "neutral" sites like this one, are sounding more and more like white nationalists themselves, in part it is because they are being primed to become receptive readers to that filth by bloggers like Instapundit. Instapundit must feel racism will help the Republicans win the election, and he's doing his part to help.
Meanwhile, John Derbyshire told Gawker yesterday that he'll be doing his writing in the future for white supremacist sites like American Renaissance, just like Robert Weissberg.
Anyway, Raw Story points out that Rich Lowry is still afraid to call the writers he's been firing racists instead of "noxious":
You know what this shit is? IT’S RACIST. It’s a simple word, really. It’s only six letters (one less than the far more stutter-inducing “noxious”).
Methane gas is noxious; white nationalism is racist. I mean, really, Rich. Are you going to have to catch one of your contributors with a can of gasoline in one hand, cross in the other before you’ll finally throw your hands up and decry behavior and writings such as Weissberg’s as being racist?
They say “sorry” seems to be the hardest worst. In Lowry’s case, it’s “racist.”
LoafingOaf said...
nothing of importance
Well, the usual.
I was wowed by Raw Story and your condemnation of Al Sharpton's race baiting --- oh, wait, neither of you did that.
Ever.
It's been, what, 25 years of him doing it regularly?
"The lawyers had to get some clear status, so they did not abandon their MIA client, but they suspended speaking on his behalf, awaiting his needing to use them again."
Why the press conference by the attorneys? Isn't some of that content crossing a confidentiality line? At minimum, injecting more speculation into the scenario.
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