It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.UPDATE: The charge is second-degree murder:
“We did not come to this decision lightly,” [Angela B.] Corey said. She added, “Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition.”
“We will continue to seek the truth about this case,” she said.
Posts
299 comments:
1 – 200 of 299 Newer› Newest»"It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face."
I wonder if it's clear to prosecutor yet, or if she'll just make something up when the time comes.
I wonder if the police department gets in any trouble for botching the initial investigation.
Per CNN: "The office of special prosecutor Angela Corey, who is investigating the Trayvon Martin shooting case, said that charges against George Zimmerman have not been filed."
They're really bringing it down to the wire, eh?
Can successfully kicked.
What happens when GZ gets off? 92 Riots all over?
Rialby back at it again with the helpful "RIOTS?????"
It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.
Being insufficiently black.
I didn't know the talk of riots offended you so much. Can I call them anti-non-violent protests?
Riots
For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing.
Andy R. said...
I wonder if the police department gets in any trouble for botching the initial investigation
Please articulate, with actual facts, how they "botched" the investigation given:
1. Zimmerman's weapon was secured and taken into custody for ballistic tests.
2. Six witnesses were interviewed at the scene.
3. Zimmerman was given a voice stress test by Standford PD (and it was clean)
4. Zimmerman was interviewed by police for more than 3 hours the night of the shooting.
5. Zimmerman returned to the scene of the shooting the next day and re-enacted the events with the Detectives who taped it all.
Please, please, detective dipship, tell us what you would have done differently and how according to basic police procedure.
Thanks in advance.
Moping with intent to creep.
Rialby back at it again with the helpful "RIOTS?????"
Oh, like you haven't thought about what's likely to happen if (a) Zimmerman isn't charged, or (b) Zimmerman is found not guilty. I'd put money down on riots.
Well Jay, they didn't find him guilty. Clear sign they goofed up.
Enlighen me, AndyR--just how was the initial investigation "botched"
As to the special prosecutor, i would guess the charge would be manslaughter, but IMNAL--and the case probably should go to trial so all the evidence can be surfaced.
Ok, charge him and let the facts come out in the trial.
After all, facts are what we want, right?
Paul said...
Ok, charge him and let the facts come out in the trial.
Um, that isn't the type of society we live in, in America.
Nor is that the purpose of trials.
But since you seem to be cheering this on, why don't you pay for his defense? I mean, why shouldn't the average American have to pony up $500,000 to defend themselves against baloney criminal charges, right?
The President and his comrades - Sharpton, Jackson and Holder - have turned this into a "clear cut case" where nobody but the most racist and/or stupid individual could see reasonable doubt. Because of that, we now have a whole set of people who are convinced GZ is going to the chair. Anything less will give rise to indignation, anger and, yes, riots.
leslyn--I dont see where any posters on this current thread have made pronouncements on guilt or innocence. perhaps you have examples?
Andy R. said...
For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing
Stupid:
Between 1976 and 2005, African-Americans, 12.6% of the population in the last census, committed 52.2% of all homicides.
That is, over the 30-year period, African-Americans committed murder at about 7.33 times the white rate. (Whites here include Hispanics.)
Of homicides committed by strangers, on average, 18.77% involved blacks killing whites, while in 5.08% of the cases, whites killed blacks. African-Americans were therefore nearly 3.7 times more likely to kill a white than a white to kill a black
To provide some raw numbers, in 2005, the last year for which the DOJ statistics are available, 10,285 African-Americans committed murders. As 8.8% of these were "black on white," there were, assuming only one death per murderer, 905 whites killed, almost 2.5 per day. In the same year, again assuming one killing per perpetrator, 267 blacks were murdered by whites (3.2% of 8,350 killings).
The vast majority of the 52.2% of U.S. murders committed by African-Americans are the work of the roughly 2% of the population who are black males between the ages of 15 and 25.
Thanks for the incoherence.
Trials are not used for everything. There is some discretion involved in trying someone, as it is a huge drain on their resources. Maybe the prosecutor will tell us what new details have emerged that make this a good idea. Because, when you have witnesses, physical evidence and the suspect passing whatever a voice stress test is -- it all adds up to me thinking that we're missing the evidence that makes it look like not legitimate self-defense. Unless we want to haul people into court routinely so they can prove they are innocent.
"Trayvon Death Case “Botched”, Says Former Miami-Dade Top Cop"
But I guess the Althouse Comment Crew understands police procedure better than the police do.
leslyn said...
Problem: We have NO information that any forensic investigation was done at the scene. If true, that would be one hell of a screwup.
Who cares?
The autopsy report hasn't been released.
You not knowing about information doesn't mean it does not exist.
You have no indication any forensic examination did not take place. Especially given the police were at the scene for 7 hours.
Andy R. said...
But I guess the Althouse Comment Crew understands police procedure better than the police do.
Hysterical.
So you can't articulate with facts what was done wrong.
But you trust a "former top cop" who a) was not there and b) you don't understand what he is even saying.
I'm shocked by all of this.
Judging by many of the comments around here in the previous threads, many of the right wingers think Zimmerman should be given a medal for shooting Trayvon instead of a court date.
Andy: So, those charges, what proof does he have? Does he have access to all the details? Was he given a chance to review the reports and debrief the officers there? Or was he relying on the media reports that reported that Zimmerman was a 240 pound guy who shot Martin, while standing feet away?
Because, you know, when I first heard the reports, I thought they botched the job too. Until we learned that the media had systematically lied to us about everything else. For example, did he still believe it took days to get to Martin's family? Was he of the opinion that the police did not create a perimeter around the body (as was initially reported, despite the fact they did?)
From Andy R's link:
Parker is not an impartial observer in this case. He testified before a congressional committee on the shooting last month, and has appeared numerous times with Trayvon’s family at events demanding justice for Trayvon
Um, fail, little boy.
Epic fail.
Oaf - you're despicable. Is that what you think about conservatives? I doubt you have a single conservative friend.
Andy R. said...
But I guess the Althouse Comment Crew understands police procedure better than the police do.
What is comical is you're taking the word over a former police officer (turned activist) over current police Chief Lee.
In other words, you're an embarrassing idiot.
AndyR--again, sir--please tell us how the sanford police "botched" the case--
LoafingOaf said...
Judging by many of the comments around here in the previous threads, many of the right wingers think Zimmerman should be given a medal for shooting Trayvon instead of a court date.
Really?
Why don't you point to one such comment, clown?
The coward's way out.
They should just take Zimmerman to Baltimore and drop him off downtown.
Looks to me like there are quite a few people whose view of police investigations are based on CSI and Law and Order. Life in the television society.
For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing.
Only whites are in danger during a riot? So does that mean you think that black people are the only ones rioting? And you think ALL black people will be rioting?
When you say "conservatives and racists," I'm guessing you know that I'm a conservative and now you've made it plain that you are a racist.
Apparently the special prosecutor is calling in the first installment on George Zimmerman's pound of flesh.
Point of order: precisely what is a "forensics exam?" Oh yeah--thats what the CSI people do. Can anyone tell me what a "forensics exam" consists of?
I don't think GZ should be given a medal for killing Trayvon. Similarly, I do not believe that Obama and his comrades should be rewarded in any way for ginning up a race war about a case which is not black-and-white. If this thing erupts into a riot, they should be blamed. But they won't.
Leslyn--well said--thanks for injecting a note of sanity.
"ABC News has learned police seemed to accept Zimmerman's account at face value that night and that he was not tested for drugs or alcohol on the night of the shooting, even though it is standard procedure in most homicide investigations."
AndyR--you have dropped off the radar screen--can you enlighten us as to how the sanford police "botched" the exam? You may also want to read Leslyn's comment re proximity to the case.
But I am sure you will let us know.
leslyn said...
You have this obsession with "the autopsy report." You've said earlier that this will show what happened to ZIMMERMAN.
I've said no such thing.
As I said, "We have NO information that any forensic investigation was done at the scene." You accused me with the same words. What's up with that?
Er, "what's up" is you have no point.
If this thing erupts into a riot...
Arm thyself, pilgrim.
Andy R. said...
I wonder if the police department gets in any trouble for botching the initial investigation.
Gee, Andy, I realize it's hard to get stuff right from such a distant perch ... but the police DID want to file charges and it was the prosecutor who declined.
Sorry Andy. ABC News simply saying something did not happen isn't good enough. They've burned all their good will on this case, as have most the networks. They need to name their sources. Anonymous sources don't fly when you've been wrong every step of the way.
Andy R. said...
"ABC News has learned police seemed to accept Zimmerman's account at face value that night and that he was not tested for drugs or alcohol on the night of the shooting, even though it is standard procedure in most homicide investigations."
Hilarious.
From March 18th, no less.
By the way, this isn't a "homicide investigation"
Duh.
AndyR--you are flailing now--give it up. What is the sanford police protocols for conducting a Blood Alcohol check? And dont quote ABC news--as Sergeant Friday would say: just the facts.
It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.
Self-defense while white.
His former "lawyers" need to be charged with gross violation of --
Rule 4-1.6(a) Confidentiality of Information
Rule 4-1.16(d) Protection of Client's Interest when Terminating Representation
Rule 4-8.4(d) Misconduct - Disparagement
-you have dropped off the radar screen
Looks like we were typing up comments at the same time (re drug and alcohol tests). Anyway, I have to bounce for two hours but I'll be back later if people still want to hash over whether Sanford PD made any mistakes. I'm pretty sure Martin's cell phone is also an issue but I'd have to do some googling to get the exact details on that.
From March 18th, no less.
Have the facts changed since then?
Andy: The cell phone does not matter; it used to be an issue because the news lied to you and me. It told us the police did not contact Martin's family for days, maybe a week. They contacted them the next morning.
but I'll be back later if people still want to hash over whether Sanford PD made any mistakes
Really?
So we'll excitedly wait for you to come back so you'll link to irrelevant articles on the Web?
Oh goody!
Andy R. reveals his racism: "For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing."
And prairie wind observes: "Only whites are in danger during a riot? So does that mean you think that black people are the only ones rioting? And you think ALL black people will be rioting?
When you say 'conservatives and racists,' I'm guessing you know that I'm a conservative and now you've made it plain that you are a racist."
Good catch, prairie wind.
Andy R. said...
Have the facts changed since then?
Yes. Quite a bit.
Notably, this isn't a "homocide investigation"
Get with it, dupe.
Parker is not an impartial observer in this case. He testified before a congressional committee on the shooting last month, and has appeared numerous times with Trayvon’s family at events demanding justice for Trayvon in the form of the arrest of George Zimmerman, at times speaking out against the handling of the case.
So, someone with a vested interest in seeing that George Zimmerman is guilty and that the Sanford PD screwed up is complaining about everything. Nicely impartial witness you claim there, Andy R.
Also from the article:
The way the Sanford Police department and chief Bill Lee handled the investigation has attracted considerable criticism. It allowed neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, who shot and killed Trayvon Martin as he walked home from a convenience store, to remain free after the shooting based on little more than his claim he shot in self defense.
The only problem is that the "little more than" included signs of a struggle, damage to Zimmerman and at least one eyewitness account. Chief Parker isn't exactly covering himself in glory here by misrepresenting the facts.
I don't know what happened, but I know more than that asshat does. Then again, I'm not looking to make a buck off the case, and I'd bet Chief Parker is.
Leslyn--I dont read your cites quite as definitively as you do--but go for it. Frankly, it looks to me like no poster has said definitively that Mr Z is guilty or innocent. But, as always, YMMV
the commmenter you cite are, IMO, making reference to the consequences of whatever judicial action takes place, and not to the guilt or innocense of Mr Z
If the charge is Murder 2, this is that political lynching we talked about; manslaughter and they're being realistic.
Problem is, Zimmerman might get on that stand and be credible and you have another Bernhard Goetz.
Andy R. said...
I wonder if the police department gets in any trouble for botching the initial investigation.
How about all the Lefties who were ready to hang the guy without a trial?
They should go first.
Rialby said...
Can successfully kicked.
What happens when GZ gets off? 92 Riots all over?
Likely, sad to say. Take a look at most of the big city riots in the last 20 years or so (the playing of the Rodney King tapes was the big exception) and the reason was usually a verdict that was... shall we say, unpopular?
I'm guessing Dictator Zero gets to play Stokeley Carmichael, but will it be Fat Albert or Eric Holder who plays Rap Brown?
Icepick, in regards to this: "Chief Parker isn't exactly covering himself in glory here by misrepresenting the facts."
Parker was correct in his understanding, at the time. The witness reports and extent of Zimmerman's injuries were, while available, not very widely reported. It's part of the whole "they lied to us about the whole story" aspect. It is entirely possible Parker was just as misled as I was at the start of the investigation.
By the way, this isn't a "homicide investigation"
It isn't, then pray tell what is it? One undeniable fact about this case is that Zimmerman committed homicide. It may have been justifiable homicide, but it was undoubtedly homicide.
I have in the past said I thought that Zimmerman was obviously guilty of shooting Martin dead, yes. Zimmerman has admitted shooting Martin, hasn't he?
Whether that translates into guilty -- in a legal sense, as in a broken law -- is a whole different thing.
I don't think it will. But I wasn't there and I don't know what happened.
Parker was correct in his understanding, at the time. The witness reports and extent of Zimmerman's injuries were, while available, not very widely reported. It's part of the whole "they lied to us about the whole story" aspect. It is entirely possible Parker was just as misled as I was at the start of the investigation.
He gets no credit for that. Being a former police chief of the largest jurisdiction in Florida, he should know that the police don't necessarily release everything right from the get go. He should KNOW THAT. The fact is that he ran off looking to make some good pub for himslef, and perhaps hoping to get a slice of any kind of monetary or legal settlement.
What he did would represent malfeasence if he were still in office. As it is, it just makes him a fucking uwseless tool on the make for himself at the expense of everyone else. INCLUDING the Martin family.
Basically a lynching. Garage/shiloh/Tradguy are all in orgasm-mode.
When Andy R mentions the cell phone, he probably means that the police did not investigate to see who, if anyone, Martin might have been speaking to right before and during the incident. If true, that would be a mistake.
"I wrote a post that said Rialby, Madison Man, and rhhardin. Then I decided to wait a few minutes. Add Almost Ali."
WTF are you talking about? Please point out to me where I said he was innocent of anything?
What I wrote was, and this is nuanced so pay attention, there may not be enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty (presumed innocent is our natural state). What I also wrote was, trying someone in public because he is not black and the victim is and you believe that doing so will help to reelect Barack Obama is truly reprehensible. Finally, what I wrote was, in doing so, Sharpton, Jackson and others have ginned up anger in a way that is no good for a civilized society especially in light of the fact that GZ may not be found guilty.
Here’s the Press Release issued by the Stat Attorney’s office about the Friday press conference. No real details other than that she’s “
prepared to release new information regarding the Trayvon Martin shooting death investigation.”
Alex, if true, the state prosecutor bringing charges would hardly constitute a lynching. Zimmerman would be entitled to his day in court. It might prove better for him, as then he can have all the facts that he believes exonerates him aired publically.
And he's sure as shit going to get sued in civil court. This may be the best way to both give himself some cover (if ofund innocent) and get at all the evidence that's out there. The state is going to have to bring all its resources to bare, and it is going to have to make most (if not all) of its evidence available to him for his defense.
Additionally, we don't know what evidence the prosecutor has that has not been made public. She may well have info that warrants bringing charges. (There are rumors that she has either another audio tape, or even a video tape, not yet made public.)
...
Finally, my opinion: Unless she's got some really compelling evidence, she hasn't a chance of getting a conviction, knowing what we know at this point in time, both about the particulars of this incident and about Zimmerman's past.
Most all the "conservative" comments on this blog have only said there is not any way that Zimmerman can be convicted of anything, "beyound a reasonable doubt."
As for forensic evidence, a lot has been quoted that I have not seen where the quotes came from, but I am sure I have seen at least a photo of the Sanford PD on site the next day (27 Feb.) with a lot of GPS survey equipment, cameras, etc., and that certainly qualifies as "forensic examination" and an indication of the level of effort expended in their investigation.
Thorley, you mean about the press conference to be held at 6 PM eastern time tonight.
The prosecutor should first offer Barabbas.
Poor zap is not only talking to prosecutors, he apparently believes the justice system will clear him..
If only people knew the "real" George Zimmerman.
He should do time for naivete.
Holder praises Sharpton. Gang-bangers are running the country:
Chief of staff for the New Black Panther Party Michelle Williams said during the interview, "Let me tell you, the things that's about to happen, to these honkeys, these crackers, these pigs, these pink people, these ---- people. It has been long overdue. My prize right now this evening ... is gonna be the bounty, the arrest, dead or alive, for George Zimmerman. You feel me?"
Well, let the race war commence.
I knew when the SP refused to take it to the Grand Jury the fix was in and an indictment was coming. They just couldn't take the chance that the GJ would decline to indict. In the effort to placate the noisy lynch mob they've outsmarted themselves by half. When a Florida jury returns a verdict of not guilty on all counts how are those noisy lynch mobbers going react and what are they going to do?
This ain't like the Simi Valley case, wherein the feds can step in and use a legal fiction to avoid double jeapordy to take another bite at the judicial apple. No state action here.
"For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing."
Maybe NBP placing a bounty on GZ (soliciting kidnapping) and many other odes to lawlessness and violence have something to do with that.
Now that we know Holder is still alive, praising Sharpton..maybe he can spare a few words to the nation about the dangerous path NBP promotes. Nahhh.
Pogo, no one wants to talk about the elephant in the room, least of all Althouse. There's no upside to it. So people will just note it and distance from it in their own ways. Like Derb said.
Well, Matthew, we still have such a thing as a "trial" in this country.
So, people should be bankrupted by legal fees because an accusation with no evidence was made?
Apparently, the Duke lacrosse case taught you nothing.
Note: Prosecutors, because of the incredible advantages they have, are supposed to NOT bring cases to trial without a good reason. Too many of them, however, ignore this part of their job.
"Trayvon Death Case “Botched”, Says Former Miami-Dade Top Cop"
His "evidence"? That the state attorney didn't charge him.
Apparently, all situations must be criminal. Absolutely HAVE to be.
Otherwise, the cops screwed up.
Traditionalguy, I've been reading your analysis of this case, I think you are correct in saying there was a huge cover up.
The guy's father is a Judge. That will be brought up in trial I suspect.
What need have we for a trial?
Is the man not guilty?
Straight to the execution.
Then let the racial healing begin!
So, people should be bankrupted by legal fees because an accusation with no evidence was made?
No evidence? There is a dead body in this case, and someone that admits that they made that body dead. That is evidence of an actual homicide. That question NOW is whether or not that homicide was justified.
As I wrote earlier, we don't know what the prosecutor knows, and she may well have evidence that warrants bringing these charges. I personally doubt she is going to be able to get a conviction, but I don't have all of her information.
Also, the lead investigator in the case thought that Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter within a day of the shooting. And that was long before this case was anything other than a minor blip on the news scene of greater Orlando, and was completely unheard of by the nation at large.
"The guy's father is a Judge. That will be brought up in trial I suspect."
-- How is that material? Did the police recognize him as a judge's son? Was the judge involved in the case at all? Is he still a judge? Did he preside over cases in the area it happened?
You can't just use innuendo against people in court. Why does it matter if his dad was a judge? If his father was a drug dealer, would it matter? What if Martin's was? What if Martin's dad was a cop?
None of that matters if the investigation was done properly, Martin approached Zimmerman, Zimmerman's injuries are legit and the witnesses corroborate his story. Those are the facts you have to disprove -- not just invent new ones or point to other ones. You might have mystery evidence that knocks all those pins down. But, without them, this is a bad case to pursue because the doubt is there.
The cool thing is that a woman who kills her fetus that insists on touching her for 39 weeks, all the while threatening her with serious bodily injury and death, is justified in self-defense for so doing, since she has no opportunity to retreat.
The last time I checked, he is presumed innocent.
From everything I've read, I do not think there is enough evidence to convict him of murder which is why the SP didn't bring it to a GJ. If she had, he would not have been indicted. So, she'll indict him and then, when the evidence is lacking, he'll get off.
It is just as likely that, because of Zimmerman's campaign to get justice for a homeless man beaten by a Sanford PD's LT's son, the police would be looking to screw GZ than help him out.
leslyn - forgive me but your side has already declared GZ guilty of 1st degree murder. Just go read Daily Kos.
the first thing the cops did was run background checks on trayvon and george's dads to decide how to proceed. have i got it about right oop?
The riot leaders and the lynch mobsters and the Panther Sniper Teams must still be warming up in the holding area where they assemble the the Orange Bowl Parade Floats and marching bands... why you can hear the beat of drummers and distant trumpets if you will turn on Sean Hannity's schtick.
It is going to be a big let down when a Florida Court agrees to give the Martin Family a hearing on the killing of their son (the well known hoodie ninja that tries to kill strangers with his bare hands whenever he has skiddles sugar highs,) and everybody simply accepts the outcome and lives in peace.
I am glad that the NO Saints coaches are not running the bounty program on Zimmerman's head and knees in their spare time...which they have lots of. Now that would be a real cause for concern.
Charge: Defending himself against a minority while being too white. (He's Hispanic but not obviously enough so to meet the press' stereotype of a Hispanic who is actually part Indian. But, what the hell, hang him anyway.)
Looks like Obama missed his Atticus Finch moment.
According to Alan Dershowitz, a judge will rule on whether Zimmerman has immunity from prosecution under the Stand Your Ground law before the case proceeds. He would also be immune from a civil case if the judge rules in his favor.
So look to see if the charge works around that possibility of if the next step is the judge's ruling.
Venue will be the next big issue if the case goes forward.
Also, O. J. Simpson said that a jury trial is the best way to determine guilt or innocence.
OK, I just made that last part up.
Freder--perhaps there is "homicide' and perhaps there is "manslaughter." Are the legal differences between the two?
No doubt in my mind the Mr Z shot and killed Mr M--but what the legal implications of manslaughter versus homicide are probably resident in the Florida code.
But I guess the Althouse Comment Crew understands police procedure better than the police do.
Speaking as a real cop's son, I can tell you that police chiefs are political appointees. As for chiefs in large cities, most have never even worked the streets in their entire careers. And most of these political appointees are lefties to the core.
So yes, I think the Althouse commentariat is smarter than most police chiefs.
Icepick said...
Alex, if true, the state prosecutor bringing charges would hardly constitute a lynching. Zimmerman would be entitled to his day in court. It might prove better for him, as then he can have all the facts that he believes exonerates him aired publically.
And he's sure as shit going to get sued in civil court. This may be the best way to both give himself some cover (if ofund innocent) and get at all the evidence that's out there. The state is going to have to bring all its resources to bare, and it is going to have to make most (if not all) of its evidence available to him for his defense.
Under Fl law if it is ruled a case of self defense, then GZ can not be sued. This has all been about getting GZ charged from day one so the family can sue.
It is clear that the half-cracker part of Zimmerman needs to get his pink ass off to death row.
I am quite certain we will have no trouble finding appropriately multicultural heroes among us to cast the first stone.
Unless you accept that
Trayvon died for your sins
You are a cracker racist.
-
Anyone who listens to NPR would understand that.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyiGjPrJsI4
ABC News has learned police seemed to accept Zimmerman's account at face value that night
You mean the same ABC who lied about the police video tape? That ABC? Try not to be too surprised that I'm taking anything about this from ABC with a grain of salt.
Allie...Just read your kind remark.
The more I read the SYG Statute (at Volokh's Blog,) the more it jumped out at me that the every word of Zimmerman story exactly tracked the needed immunity findings under the Statute.
It reminded me of a pleading in a lawsuit tracking each allegation needed to state a claim.
That was amazing. Somebody advising Zimmerman is a practiced lawyer, but the perfection of all of the bullet points hit in that story makes it likely it was made up in whole or in part.
Famous wisdom: a mangy sheep with a flaw or two is a sheep, but a perfect sheep without flaws is a wolf.
First time I can remember white supremacists rushing to the defense of a hispanic Jew.
Icepick,
"Also, the lead investigator in the case thought that Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter within a day of the shooting."
That comes from a single report by ABC News which cited multiple anonymous sources and claimed that that investigator "filed an affidivit" and met with the local prosecutor.
The local prosecutor has denied that such a meeting took place and one of the sources might have been the Martin family lawyer.
Not saying it isn't true, but I wouldn't accept it as fact until substantiated.
Freder--perhaps there is "homicide' and perhaps there is "manslaughter." Are the legal differences between the two?
Manslaughter is just a type of homicide. If I had to guess, I would say the SP will charge him with voluntary manslaughter. Second degree murder at most (but that's a stretch under these facts, I think).
It really all comes down to the Stand Your Ground Law. The question is whether Zimmerman reasonably believed he was in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm. Note that the use of force is not justified under the statute if the person using the force (here Zimmerman) provoked the altercation.
Zimmerman will have to testify and it will all come down to the judge's view of his credibility.
I've said before that I don't think this warrants national media attention. (This is an unfortunate case of clear race baiting by the MSM followed by the conservative media taking the bait).
But I think if you consider the language of the statute, its applicability to Zimmerman's use of force is not so clear. And if Zimmerman loses his "stand your ground" argument, I think there's a strong case for a voluntary manslaughter or even potentially second degree murder.
(The interesting question on the voluntary manslaughter charge will be whether Zimmerman killed in the heat of passion and, if so, whether it was reasonable for him to have become emotionally or mentall disturbed.)
"Zimmerman will have to testify and it will all come down to the judge's view of his credibility."
-- No he won't. If the only way to get a conviction is for the accused to break down on the witness stand, you should not take it to trial. He will plead the 5th, and you will not clear the hurdle of reasonable doubt. If the prosecutor is hoping to get a TV cross examination victory, they should never have become a real lawyer.
Clearly, Zimmerman had the duty to retreat from his skull being bashed against the sidewalk.
traditionalguy wrote:
"That was amazing. Somebody advising Zimmerman is a practiced lawyer, but the perfection of all of the bullet points hit in that story makes it likely it was made up in whole or in part."
He had no contact with a lawyer or advisor during the time he was in police custody and stated all those "bullet points" to the police.
Maybe Holder can arrange for the New Black Panther Party to provide security detail for the courthouse in Florida.
"He had no contact with a lawyer or advisor..."
That was dumb of him.
That comes from a single report by ABC News which cited multiple anonymous sources and claimed that that investigator "filed an affidivit" and met with the local prosecutor.
I read that in the Orlando Sentinel. I'll see if I can find the first story on their site concerning this point. I don't expect much luck, and they may well have been citing ABC News.
...
Okay, here's a story from March 25th on the Orlando Sentinel website:[State Attorney] Wolfinger's office had advised Sanford police not to arrest Zimmerman, saying they did not have enough evidence to convict, according to [Sanford PD Chief Bill] Lee.
That won't be the original citation, but that does state that the claim comes from the Sanford Police Chief.
If he gets charged, the lynch mob around here will calm down a little as they see the rope being brought in, until he gets acquitted. Then the lynching will again need some more support and they will be ready. Wait and see.
If Florida has state civil rights laws, they will certainly charge him for violating those. They could throw in harassment, stalking, improper discharge of a firearm, and blocking the sidewalk. There is also an unwritten law called "necessity to file charges to prevent a certain riot." That's the one everyone is most concerned about.
@Matthew
I actually think he will have to testify, since the Stand Your Ground defense provides immunity from prosecution as opposed to an affirmative defense that the jury would evaluate along with the charges. You'd have to ask a Florida criminal practitioner, but the way this has been described leads me to believe that the issue would be decided in the context of a pre-trial evidentiary hearing on Zimmerman's motion to dismiss the charges based on the Stand Your Ground Law. Akin to a suppression hearing in federal practice. He would have to testify to prevail.
(As an aside, in almost every circumstance, claims of self defense, regardless of what stage of the proceedings they are litigated, do not succeed unless the defendant offers credible testimony in support of the defense. I suspect that's also true even in states where the burden of proof with respect to self-defense remains with the prosecution (i.e., they have to prove the negative, that the defendant did not act in self-defense).
A strong piece of evidence for the prosecution, I think, is the 911 dispatcher telling Zimmerman to quit following Martin, which clearly didn't happen. It supports an inference that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation which, if true, could undercut his Stand Your Ground justification.
Justin
That might be a strong piece of evidence...if it had ever happened. "We don't need you to do that" is not the same as "quit following [him]".
Rabel...But did Zimmerman phone home when he saw what he had done was a real screw up and get Daddy's quick advice on explaining away the killing?
His being attacked from behind, and then his head being repeatedly hit onto concrete so that he was about to lose consciousness, and his attacker then grabbing for Zimmerman's gun that otherwise Zimmerman would not have drawn, and his attacker making taunting threats of intent to kill Zimmerman, all of these go together to make am airtight SYG claim. And it worked.
1. The real crime here is that GZ is a WHITE hispanic. Until now, none of us can say we ever heard that descriptor, before.
2. Of course, there was never any outcry from the race pimps about this
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/elderly-couple-in-tulsa-beaten-raped-and-killed-in-home-invasion/question-2552569/?page=10&postId=81010897#post_81010897
3. If a white person ranted about the black person that killed that elderly couple, like this fine young man man does here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oxTQAa8cd4&context=C4ee910cADvjVQa1PpcFPmoQZT-XDB-drLOid3rkqzgN6XEXUP8ho=
you can bet you'd see the race baiters out in force.
There is no sense of proportion and this president isn't helping and neither is the AG.
From the George Zimmerman 911 call:
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: We don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Okay.
So, the dispatcher did NOT tell Zimmerman not to follow, the dispatcher said it wasn't needed. There's a significant difference between the two statements.
The guy's father is a Judge. That will be brought up in trial I suspect
Like everything else, it is hard to know what is fact & what is fiction, but I came across this:
Robert Zimmerman, George Zimmerman's father, was a magistrate in the Virginia court system from 2000 until 2006. That is, he was a judicial officer, but not a judge and without trial jurisdiction.
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/urban-game-changer/2012/apr/5/questions-surrounding-martin-zimmerman-father/
And this about what a Virginia Magistrate judge does:
In many instances, a citizen's first contact with Virginia’s Judicial System comes through the office of the Magistrate. A principal function of the magistrate is to provide an independent, unbiased review of complaints of criminal conduct brought to the office by law enforcement or the general public. Magistrate duties include issuing various types of processes such as arrest warrants, summonses, bonds, search warrants, subpoenas, and certain civil warrants. Magistrates also conduct bail hearings in instances in which an individual is arrested on a warrant charging him or her with a criminal offense. Magistrates provide services on an around-the-clock basis, conducting hearings in person or through the use of videoconferencing systems.
http://www.courts.state.va.us/courtadmin/aoc/djs/programs/mag/about.html
@Panda Jerk
Thanks for the correction; it's a fair point. "We don't need you to do that" is certainly not as compelling, but I think it still bears on the issue of who initiated the altercation. Zimmerman's response to that was "OK." He then tells the dispatcher that he will meet the police by his parked truck (after telling them that Martin was running away). Then he apparently changes his mind about staying put and tells the dispatcher to have the officers call him when they arrive. (The dispatcher clearly didn't connect that this request meant Zimmerman would not be staying put.)
The point the prosecution will make is that Zimmerman should not have pursued Martin.
traditionalguy, you are such a fucking nitwit that it almost defies belief.
Listen to the 911 calls. The police are there within seconds of the shooting taking place. You can hear that on the most important of the 911 calls from the neighbors - the one made by the people whose home this happened behind. There's a shot and within second a police officer is there. There wouldn't have been time for Zimmereman to call anyone and get advanced legal advice.
Goddamn, you are either the dumbest person posting here or the most dishonest.
All exculpatory evidence will be "lost". All eyewitnesses will find some other way to spend their time when the day comes to testify.
The proles cannot be denied their bread and circuses.
The claim about the "lead investigator" came from a neighbor down the row who claimed that she had talked to such a person and he had stated "we do not believe Zimmerman's story," or words to that effect.
For watchers of CSI, Imagine what Grissom or Horatio would have to say to one of their crews who went around making that kind of statements to civilians.
There is no sense of proportion and this president isn't helping and neither is the AG.
Very true. I lived in Cincinnati in 2001, during some terrible race riots, which were precipitated by a young, unarmed teenage black male getting shot in the back by police during a chase. (The officer said he believed the teen was reaching in his pants for a gun.)
Unfortunate, yes. But riots certainly weren't justified, and the national media's reporting on the case, I think, was one of the primary causes of the riots, because the unbalanced symphathy towards the dead young man fueled the belief that it was okay for the rioters to take "justice" into their own hands.
Both men had all the rights in the world to be where they were in their home neighborhood.
What neither had a right to do is physically assault the other, and the only possible question here is as to who started the altercation.
As an aside, and forgive me in advance for the off-color joke...
But has anyone else noticed the irony, from Zimmerman's perspective, that this all took place on Retreat View Circle? Maybe he should have just read the street sign after getting off the phone with the dispatcher. Just sayin'.
"Goddamn, you are either the dumbest person posting here or the most dishonest."
I've already claimed the title of Dumbest, so that leaves Most Dishonest is wide open.
Most Unwilling To Admit A Mistake has been widely fought over with great intensity since I first got here years ago. That title too is still wide open.
and the only possible question here is as to who started the altercation
That might be true, but it's a critical questions. If the answer is Zimmerman, under the plain language of the statute, his use of force was likely not justified.
According to AP, Zimmerman will be charged with 2nd degree murder, and is in custody.
On the other hand, look what they did to Marta Stewart, not to mention Scooter Libby!
Garage: According to AP, Zimmerman will be charged with 2nd degree murder, and is in custody.
If this is correct I simply can't see how the prosecutor thinks she can prove this charge beyond a reasonable doubt.
Which doesn't mean that I believe there is no charge which could be brought with some chance of success. But not 2d degree murder. If the jury believes any portion of the primary elements of Zimmerman's account of events I can't see how they would find no reasonable doubt with regard to the intent element required by the law.
I'd prefer to believe the AP is wrong here and not that the Special Prosecutor is so daft.
Imagine OJ Simpson was Merril Hoge (white) and Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman were black.
Fast forward to the innocent verdict.
I think its plausible to believe we would have seen rioting.
But, the fact is, there was REJOICING after OJ was acquitted.
We live in very dangerous times.
Pogo's Barabbas reference for the win. Please collect your five pence at the claims window.
"Both men had all the rights in the world to be where they were in their home neighborhood.
What neither had a right to do is physically assault the other, and the only possible question here is as to who started the altercation."
That is all there is to it in my opinion too. The evidence seems to make Martin the aggressor, especially the eye witness, and the injuries. A man with a gun does not usually start a fist fight, but he often ends one. If he's fast enough he can prevent a shooting too.
From what I've read and seen of maps of the incident as well as the audio, it seems most likely that GZ lost TM and headed back toward his truck right after being told by the dispatcher "We don't need you to do that." On the way back he encountered TM who had returned rather than continue on to his destination which was away from GZ and the incident. He didn't have to meet GZ to get home. He had to turn around and come back after losing him. Why? Bravado, he dropped something? Who knows.
2nd Degree Murder is either over-reach, a ploy for a plea, or she's got evidence not yet made public that is pretty damning. We'll know soon....
This prosecutor is also known for being a hard-core Attila the Hun type.
Pogo's Barabbas reference for the win.
Agreed.
Jay Carney says that Obama will have no further comment on the Martin-Zimmerman case because there is an ongoing investigation. Carney will not comment either.
Better to just sit back and admire his work.
Wake up pink people!
garage mahal said...
First time I can remember white supremacists rushing to the defense of a hispanic Jew.
================
Perhaps we can say that most people taking sides on this are not white supremacists on one side or bloodthirsty racist niggahs followed by their grovelling white guilt leftists all rooting for a race-baiting lynching - on the other side.
The evidence seems to make Martin the aggressor, especially the eye witness, and the injuries.
NBC News is reporting that Treyvon Martin was playing "the knockout game" and intended to add Zimmerman to his tally.
My comment about the potential threat to white people was in reference to a previous post here and the many comments about the threat of race riots. If white people have stopped discussing this issue in terms of the potential that angry black people will engage in a race riot against them, then that is great.
Also, the idea that white people are under threat from some gang of angry black people composed of Holder, Obama, and the New Black Panthers seems a little far fetched.
SP Corey's tone and facial expression to start this presser, nevermind all the shout-outs, just seem...inappropriate.
And CNN just reported that Andy R. has been arrested on charges of lewd conduct with a minor.
Icepick said...
2nd Degree Murder is either over-reach, a ploy for a plea, or she's got evidence not yet made public that is pretty damning. We'll know soon....
This prosecutor is also known for being a hard-core Attila the Hun type.
Even Attila reached a point where he could go no farther. This is about politics now, not law.
Sounds like the Murder 2 charge is to placate Eric Holder, Fat Albert, the NBPP, and the networks.
That is all there is to it in my opinion too. The evidence seems to make Martin the aggressor, especially the eye witness, and the injuries. A man with a gun does not usually start a fist fight, but he often ends one. If he's fast enough he can prevent a shooting too.
Wow, you get that from a 911 call where Zimmerman (a man with a history of violence) says "these assholes always get away", leaps out of his SUV with a loaded gun, and starts chasing the boy?
The boy is more likely to be the aggressor? A boy who had walked to a convenience store during halftime of the NBA ALl Star Game he was watching with his dad? A boy who was walking back with some snacks for the rest of the game while chatting with his girlfriend on his cell phone?
It's more likely that the boy was the aggressor? Wow.
And several minutes in we're still getting the "blah blah blah" with no actual content.
Andy R.: My comment about the potential threat to white people was in reference to a previous post here and the many comments about the threat of race riots. If white people -
Why are you assuming that the people commenting on the threat of race riots are white?
Geez, you have more blindspots than a crack whore.
Idiot.
Filed an information for 2nd degree murder and issued an arrest warrant.
Zimmerman is in custody.
I'm listening to the special prosecutor. So far it's a laugh riot of preamble and self importance.
NY Times: Mr. Honkey, Mr. Pink-assed Cracker? Shall I repeat the question?
Cracker: I heard you. Hate crime. Let's see now. You know, come to think of it, I have no idea what that means.
NY Times: Well, it means you admit your white sins and you're ready to rejoin multicultural society.
Cracker: I know what you think it means. Me, I think it's a made-up word, a politician's word. A word so young fellas like you can wear a suit and tie and have a job. What do you really want to know? Am I sorry for what Zimmerman did?
NY Times: Well...are you?
Cracker: Not a day goes by I don't feel regret, and not because I'm white or because you think I should. I look back on the way this came down ...stupid kid who started a stupid fight and got killed. I wish I could talk sense to him. Tell him how things are.
But I can't. That kid's long gone, the half-white man is all that's left, and we have to live with that.
Hate crime? That's a bullshit word, so you just go on ahead and write your bullshit story there, sonny, and stop wasting my damn time. Truth is, I don't give a damn.
LoafingOaf: Wow, you get that from a 911 call where Zimmerman (a man with a history of violence) says "these assholes always get away", leaps out of his SUV with a loaded gun, and starts chasing the boy?
Yes, but then we aren't dressing it up with so much hyperbole.
You should try it some time.
When you're not bashing Latinos, you racist hypocrite.
Why are you assuming that the people commenting on the threat of race riots are white?
Well, it was Ann Althouse that made a post that contained the text, "We may have race riots in Florida" and I'm pretty sure she's white. She got it from Instapundit (also white) who got the original from Tom Maguire, who based on his profile picture also looks white.
Does that count as white people talking about the threat to white people of race riots? I'm not really interested in going through that previous thread here or this one to try to determine whether any of the additional commenters were also white.
leslyn said...
Of course it is. A homicide investigation is the investigation of the killing of one human being by another.
Duh
You are correct. I was reading homicide and thinking "murder"
My error.
2nd degree murder is a high hurdle.
Wow.
Andy R. said...
Have the facts changed since then?
Yes. Quite a bit.
Notably, this isn't a "homocide investigation"
Get with it, dupe.
I accept your apology.
Pinching loaf typed
"The boy is more likely to be the aggressor? A boy who had walked to a convenience store during halftime of the NBA ALl Star Game he was watching with his dad? A boy who was walking back with some snacks for the rest of the game while chatting with his girlfriend on his cell phone? "
1. You clearly do not know what 'tea and skittles' means in street parlance
2. You have never sampled Mr. Martin's Twitter feed
3. You are unaware of how far away the nearest 'convenience' store is from where the incident took place
4. you are willfully ignorant
"White House Press Secretary Jay Carney today said President Obama will make no further comments on the Trayvon Martin case.
“I certainly don’t think you’ll hear from him,” Carney said, noting that there is an “ongoing investigation” in the case."
ADDED:
So when Obama saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this man’s blood; see to it yourselves.”
2nd degree murder - wow just wow. If GZ gets convicted of this - Obama loses the election.
AllieOop said...
Traditionalguy, I've been reading your analysis of this case, I think you are correct in saying there was a huge cover up.
The guy's father is a Judge.
Allie,
Zimmerman's father was a judge in Virginia.
Generally that wouldn't hold much sway in Florida.
As to a "coverup" the prosecutor just said on live television that:
A. The police conducted a "thorough and intensive investigation"
B. Said investigation was not complete
C. There are numerous homicide cases where the defendant is not immediately arrested.
Anglea Corey is going to charge Zommerman with second degree murder. She's a very experienced prosecutor, and has a duty not to charge unless she believes there is a "reasonable certainty" of conviction.
Now we have a case in which an experienced and politically ambitious prosecutor, the national media, various powerful national and local political interests and the State of Florida are lined up against George Zimmerman.
He is going to need one hell of a lawyer to get a fair trial, and its going to be very hard even if he has a great lawyer. Where are they going to get an untainted jury?
So far his defense has been that he was attacked without provocation by Martin. There is no direct witness. Martin is dead and it likely will be unwise for Zimmerman to testify.
The power of the state, the ambition of the prosecutor and numerous powerful interests against one simple and impecunious man. Keep that in mind as you comment on this case as it unfolds.
Tradguy & allie have be-clowned themselves speculating about a cover-up. No evidence, NO problem! They have their bias against conservatives, and that's all they need.
Pogo, my guess is that Carney and Obama knew that Zimmerman was going to be prosecuted when the statement came out. Obama's work in the case was done.
Anyone catch Holder hangin' with Sharpton? That's like John Ashcroft hanging out with the KKK leader. Wow, just wow.
My intuition is that if you get enough homocide investigators, you get a homocide charge.
The lady sounds completely corrupt with self importance.
David
Great points and I agree it will be difficult to get a fair trial at this point, what with all the street corner prosecutors, race pimps and posse mentality out to avenge this 'innocent young boy'. Innocent my ass.
I can imagine the pressure brought to bear on this prosecutor by the DOJ's 'peace' officers under the watchful eye of the AG.
GZ faces long odds indeed.
Just listened to her self-congratulatory press conference where she gleefully charged a man with 2nd degree murder.Just like her boss Pam Bondi who gleefully prosecuted five corrections officers for a beating death that wasn't.But hey so what it keeps the prosecutors and defense bar employed doesn't it?And temporarily satisfies the race hustlers.Law Enforcement making the streets safe for thugs.
"Obama's work in the case was done."
Absolutely; he accomplished exactly what he set out to do.
I just thought it was uncanny how Pontius Pilate-like Carney's statement appeared.
No, I don't see Zimmerman as Christ-like, only noting how those same horrors are too often revisited.
Bring in Patrick Fitzgerald.
Maybe Judge Ito too.
The good news for GZ is he will be able to get his trial moved out of the area due to excessive media coverage. Hopefully he can get somewhere in the panhandle.
That's the last time Zimmerman votes Democrat.
Maybe Eric Holder can come personally to put the noose around Z's neck, to please his race hustler buddies.
As I noted earlier, in the last couple of decades, in many cases of a murder trial with a racial component where one group did not like the verdict, a riot ensued.
Yes, my only concern is that white people are spending an insufficient amount of time discussing the threat to them from angry black youths.
Pogo said..."No, I don't see Zimmerman as Christ-like, only noting how those same horrors are too often revisited."
Are you drunk or just stupid?
What the fuck does any of that even mean?
The guy shot someone and is being charged (according to reports) with 2nd Degree Murder.
It happens every day.
hatboy is a self-hating pink who has to spew out the poison buildup onto other pinks or die. So that's what he does. Die pinkies die is the imperative that drives the wretch.
Andy R. said...
Why are you assuming that the people commenting on the threat of race riots are white?
Well, it was Ann Althouse that made a post that contained the text, "We may have race riots in Florida" and I'm pretty sure she's white. She got it from Instapundit (also white) who got the original from Tom Maguire, who based on his profile picture also looks white.
Does that count as white people talking about the threat to white people of race riots? I'm not really interested in going through that previous thread here or this one to try to determine whether any of the additional commenters were also white.
As always, Hatman needs to get his head out of his froth and join the real world.
Not everybody who fears race riots is white. He'd be surprised how many black people choose not to live in black neighborhoods because of the mentality that dictates anytime you don't get what you want, start a riot.
How is it there are so many here that are apparently absolutely positive Zimmerman is not guilty of any crime whatsoever??
What are you basing this massive support on?
Considering none of you know any more than anyone who reads newspapers or visits the internet...it sure sounds like blatant racism to me.
Non stop talks of LYNCHING and RIOTS from the right. Going to be an awesome summer.
"The Bonfire of the Vanities" in the age of Obama. Tom Wolfe, call your office.
rhhardin "That's the last time Zimmerman votes Democrat."
The prosecutor is a Democrat?
Love is an oxymoron, am I right?
Lynch mobs happen every day. Get used to them. It's the future, Mr. Giddes, the future!
This is a purely political prosecution - the prosecutor was afraid to submit the case to a grand jury because she was afraid they wouldn't go along with railroading Zimmerman to assuage the black mob.
So now what, Konviction by a Kangraoo Kourt? Seems the only possiblity, since there's no way you could ever find an unbiased jury, and everyone in Florida is afraid the blacks will go all LA/Rodney King riots on them if Zimmerman isn't thrown to the wolves.
This is absolutely disgusting. Unless charges come from an independent grand jury, in a case like this they have no credibility whatsoever.
Garbage,
Your memory is irrelevant because: (1) it is not connected to any objective knowledge base or discernable intelligence with which to evaluate information and (2)you are a leftist troll and remember only what is conveniently reconstructed to fit your narrative.
Actually, garbage, non-stop threatening to lynch and riot from the Left, your homies.
Corey; “Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition.”
'Let me emphasize' appears to be the prosecutor's version of Obama's tell 'Let me be clear', which reliably forecasts the lie to follow.
"Not everybody who fears race riots is white. He'd be surprised how many black people choose not to live in black neighborhoods because of the mentality that dictates anytime you don't get what you want, start a riot."
This! Right on. There are many black families in my neighborhood that fled the inner city and all the nonsense associated with it. They like living with people that value the appearance of their home, their neighbors, their community, their schools. Its the racists that apparently feel blacks shouldn't vote with their feet!
Hatboy said
"Yes, my only concern is that white people are spending an insufficient amount of time discussing the threat to them from angry black youths."
Only concern? Hardly. You have an infinite supply of 'concerns' and stupid questions. You remind me of a nosy neighbor I have.
Hagar: On the other hand, look what they did to Marta Stewart, not to mention Scooter Libby!
Martha Stewart was basically convicted of talking to her stock broker about a stock about to go bad. Even in the United States that's still legal. Her mistake was lying to the cops about that legal conversation.
As for Scooter Libby, he deserved it. He helped get us into an unnecessary war facilitated by his good friend and factually challenged journalist, Judith Miller.
Andy R. said...
"Trayvon Death Case “Botched”, Says Former Miami-Dade Top Cop"
But I guess the Althouse Comment Crew understands police procedure better than the police do.
4/11/12 2:18 PM
In Miami-Dade Parker isn't exactly the exalted super-cop you think he is. Just say his opinion isn't that much regarded locally than that notable former State Attorney for Miami-Dade County Janet "The Waco Kid" Reno.
Don't Tread 2012:
You said upthread that no one's ever heard the label "white hispanic" before. That's not true. I've heard it before, and you can look it up on Wikipedia.
As for this....
1. You clearly do not know what 'tea and skittles' means in street parlance
2. You have never sampled Mr. Martin's Twitter feed
3. You are unaware of how far away the nearest 'convenience' store is from where the incident took place
4. you are willfully ignorant
What the fuck are you on about?
I'll ignore your other points, but you can see where the 7-Eleven is located in relation to the house here.
***
Fen: I didn't mind when you were trolling me (nothing new about right-wing trolls around here), but because in a previous thread you started making up words and placing them into quote and pretending I had said them, I'm gonna say goodbye to you. BTW, hope you noticed that Rich Lowry had to fire Robert Weissberg (another white supremacist writer for National Review) last night.
***
Anyway, glad the Zimmerman case is finally headed to court. Trayvon's family is on TV right now and they sound like good, decent people to me, and my heart goes out to them. Some of you right wing nutjobs in these comment threads should be ashamed of yourselves. Some of you should go follow John Derbyshire to the American Renaissance magazine.
"The boy is more likely to be the aggressor? A boy who had walked to a convenience store during halftime of the NBA ALl Star Game he was watching with his dad? A boy who was walking back with some snacks for the rest of the game while chatting with his girlfriend on his cell phone? "
-- Considering his girlfriend's report on the conversation is that Martin approached Zimmerman and asked him the question, all of that other stuff doesn't matter. Did Martin approach Zimmerman, like she said?
Cato Renasci "This is a purely political prosecution - the prosecutor was afraid to submit the case to a grand jury because she was afraid they wouldn't go along with railroading Zimmerman to assuage the black mob."
And yet another big mouth, who knows nothing but has been provided by the media, decides to throw in another line of bullshit.
What do YOU know...that everyone else doesn't?
Nothing.
I wonder if the prosecution will charge Zimmerman with calling Martin a coon. The enhanced audio that I heard seems to pretty conclusively disprove that. But it's such a usefully inflammatory allegation I can't see the prosecution simply abandoning it.
Of homicides committed by strangers, on average, 18.77% involved blacks killing whites, while in 5.08% of the cases, whites killed blacks. African-Americans were therefore nearly 3.7 times more likely to kill a white than a white to kill a black
You are mixing groups with individuals. The actuality is a black man is 16 times more likely to kill a white than a white is to kill a black.
I think a murdered white man is more likely to have been murdered by a black than a white, by 1.2/1 or so.
I watched Prosecutor Corey's press conference. She is pretty good a answering questions and doing the politcal side of prosecution. But I also sensed that she anticipates she will likely lose on self defense. We have not seen the evidence, but it seems to me that unless Zimmerman made advmissions or provable lies when he foolishly cooperated with the police, the charges will be dismissed, probably prior to trial. I don't know the proedure, but it sounded like the defense can challenge the charges based on self defense and there is some type of hearing before the judge. If the case survives until trial, and it is assigned to a good judge, I think Zimmerman should opt for the case to be tried before a judge, not a jury. If Zimmerman is innocent, he is the victim of a political prosecution prompted by the race hustlers, but in terms of the good of the country, it might be better for one unjust prosecution that fails than allowing the race hustlers to even more successfully exploit this tragedy.
Love,
I agree we have not seen the evidence and Cato at this point cannot establis his view that the prosecution is political and Corey was afraid a grand jury would not indict, but there is at least a fair probability that he is correct. Why wouldn't the prosecutor take it to a grand jury?
Jay,
Of course it is a "homicide investigation." That's what they call it when there's an interaction between people and someone winds up dead.
Matthew: I don't know what happened immediately before the shooting, but I was addressing who, given the facts we have available to us, was more likely to have been the aggressor.
What you're saying wouldn't change my view on that. Trayvon was looking at the SUV, wondering why some stranger is following him. Then, Zimmerman sees him leaving and Zimmerman gets out to follow him. It's more likely that the boy was scared. It's a fact in the 911 call that Zimmerman jumped out of his car with a loaded gun to follow him -- he's more likely to be the aggressor.
Hopefully the evidence in court will clear these matters up one way or another. Thank God it's finally in court!
Gene said...As for Scooter Libby, he deserved it. He helped get us into an unnecessary war facilitated by his good friend and factually challenged journalist, Judith Miller.
Indeed, let's get Libby with a trumped up process crime in a case that should not have even gone forward because...IRAQ!
Yessir, that's the American way.
AndyR. You appear to know little about the history of race riots. Whites have nothing to fear. Well, there might be a hapless truck driver in the wrong place ripped from his cab and stoned but on the whole whites will watch on t.v. Be advised that your political opinions and solidarity with the cause are not apparent to the mob. Nor of any interest. Nor exculpatory. Just a head's up since you have a tendency to ride your high horse into the wrong corrals.
Matthew Sablan "Considering his girlfriend's report on the conversation is that Martin approached Zimmerman and asked him the question, all of that other stuff doesn't matter."
Can you provide any link to substantiate that?
My recollection is that he told her he was being followed and she told him to run away.
It's Zimmerman who says Martin approached him, not the girlfriend.
Where are all of these "riots" everybody is talking about??
Anybody got any good video or firsthand reports of the massive damage being done?
Pinching loaf said
"What the fuck are you on about? "
Carry on with your willful ignorance, loaf. Had you any curiosity about what Mr. Martin may have been up to, aside from the 'sanitized' version where he, an innocent boy, was out buying candy, you just might have reason to believe that saint Trayvon may have initiated contact with GZ. Maybe. But, you clearly have your conviction vote in place.
Innocent until proven guilty.
How is it there are so many here that are apparently absolutely positive Zimmerman is not guilty of any crime whatsoever??
Personally I have hesitated at forming an opinion on whether Zimmerman is guilty or innocent. I realize that I don’t have all of the facts and just as importantly, I recognize that a lot of the “facts” that were reported initially were incomplete or incorrect to put it mildly. There has been a lot of emotion on both sides of this issue from people who confidently asserted Zimmerman’s guilt based on the initial reporting (which was horrible) to those who are pushing back against the toxic behavior and comments of Sharpton/Obama/Jackson/Black Panthers etc.
Andy R. said...Riots
For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing.
Well, thank you for at least pretending that conservatives and racists aren't one and the same.
And people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the New Black Panters and even the president, what have they made it about? Anyway, I don't think we white people feel we're in any particular danger. It's a well known statistic that it's black people who are in greater danger of being harmed by blacks and when there's rioting in the inner cities, it's the inner cities that are looted and burned.
Non stop talks of LYNCHING and RIOTS from the right
...provided you ignore the bounty on the head of Zimmerman...
The prosecutor is a Democrat?
No --- but his lynch mob is.
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