It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.UPDATE: The charge is second-degree murder:
“We did not come to this decision lightly,” [Angela B.] Corey said. She added, “Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition.”
“We will continue to seek the truth about this case,” she said.
Posts
319 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 319 of 319Matthew: I don't know what happened immediately before the shooting, but I was addressing who, given the facts we have available to us, was more likely to have been the aggressor.
What you're saying wouldn't change my view on that. Trayvon was looking at the SUV, wondering why some stranger is following him. Then, Zimmerman sees him leaving and Zimmerman gets out to follow him. It's more likely that the boy was scared. It's a fact in the 911 call that Zimmerman jumped out of his car with a loaded gun to follow him -- he's more likely to be the aggressor.
Hopefully the evidence in court will clear these matters up one way or another. Thank God it's finally in court!
Gene said...As for Scooter Libby, he deserved it. He helped get us into an unnecessary war facilitated by his good friend and factually challenged journalist, Judith Miller.
Indeed, let's get Libby with a trumped up process crime in a case that should not have even gone forward because...IRAQ!
Yessir, that's the American way.
AndyR. You appear to know little about the history of race riots. Whites have nothing to fear. Well, there might be a hapless truck driver in the wrong place ripped from his cab and stoned but on the whole whites will watch on t.v. Be advised that your political opinions and solidarity with the cause are not apparent to the mob. Nor of any interest. Nor exculpatory. Just a head's up since you have a tendency to ride your high horse into the wrong corrals.
Matthew Sablan "Considering his girlfriend's report on the conversation is that Martin approached Zimmerman and asked him the question, all of that other stuff doesn't matter."
Can you provide any link to substantiate that?
My recollection is that he told her he was being followed and she told him to run away.
It's Zimmerman who says Martin approached him, not the girlfriend.
Where are all of these "riots" everybody is talking about??
Anybody got any good video or firsthand reports of the massive damage being done?
Pinching loaf said
"What the fuck are you on about? "
Carry on with your willful ignorance, loaf. Had you any curiosity about what Mr. Martin may have been up to, aside from the 'sanitized' version where he, an innocent boy, was out buying candy, you just might have reason to believe that saint Trayvon may have initiated contact with GZ. Maybe. But, you clearly have your conviction vote in place.
Innocent until proven guilty.
How is it there are so many here that are apparently absolutely positive Zimmerman is not guilty of any crime whatsoever??
Personally I have hesitated at forming an opinion on whether Zimmerman is guilty or innocent. I realize that I don’t have all of the facts and just as importantly, I recognize that a lot of the “facts” that were reported initially were incomplete or incorrect to put it mildly. There has been a lot of emotion on both sides of this issue from people who confidently asserted Zimmerman’s guilt based on the initial reporting (which was horrible) to those who are pushing back against the toxic behavior and comments of Sharpton/Obama/Jackson/Black Panthers etc.
Andy R. said...Riots
For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing.
Well, thank you for at least pretending that conservatives and racists aren't one and the same.
And people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the New Black Panters and even the president, what have they made it about? Anyway, I don't think we white people feel we're in any particular danger. It's a well known statistic that it's black people who are in greater danger of being harmed by blacks and when there's rioting in the inner cities, it's the inner cities that are looted and burned.
Non stop talks of LYNCHING and RIOTS from the right
...provided you ignore the bounty on the head of Zimmerman...
The prosecutor is a Democrat?
No --- but his lynch mob is.
People, please know at least the basic facts of the case. Wikipedia tells you what the girlfriend says (with a cite!) I'm getting really tired of re-linking to basic facts, sometimes for the same people. We won't get anywhere if people don't take a few minutes to read up on it.
"According to the attorney's statement, Martin's girlfriend said that he expressed concern about a strange man following him, and she advised him to run. She says she heard Martin say "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin's headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been pushed. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him."
Zimmerman is following Martin; Martin turns around and asks him a question. Zimmerman responds; at that point things get confusing. This also does not synch up with how Zimmerman described the incident (with Martin asking him what his problem was). That's really the weakest link in Zimmerman's statement. Martin could have walked away; Zimmerman could have walked away. So, who started it? Or, did Martin escalate a fight into a potentially deadly encounter? Or, did Zimmerman have a reasonable belief that is what was happening?
Those are the hurdles you have to get over for a conviction. Which, will be hard (barring mystery evidence that we don't know).
Where are all of these "riots" everybody is talking about??
Just Google Cincinnati riots of 2001 and read up on it. I lived through it, as I said earlier; I lived about a mile away from the epicenter of it. And it started with an event that was in many significant respects similar to this one.
It was horrible. And the media was in my opinion responsible for stoking the fire. They've been just as careless in their reporting this time around.
LoafingOaf
[to Don't Tread 2012],
You said upthread that no one's ever heard the label "white hispanic" before. That's not true. I've heard it before, and you can look it up on Wikipedia.
Hey, if it's on Wikipedia, it must be true!
Seriously, though. Per American law, "Hispanic" is an ethnicity rather than a race. Though it's often enough not treated that way.
How many NLB players are Black? It depends rather a lot on whether the ones LoafingOaf would call "Black Hispanics" are "Black." (The always-reliable Wikipedia [!] doesn't call, say, Moisés Alou a "Black Hispanic." Or anything but Dominican-American, bless its communal heart.)
But "white Hispanic" was obviously a way of deflecting the news that George Zimmerman wasn't "George Zimmerman, white Southern racist vigilante redneck," but "George Zimmerman, Hispanic." And not one of those nasty right-wing Cuban exiles either, but a Democrat and the son of a Peruvian immigrant. Holy not-the-right-narrative, Batman!
(No, I'm not ruling out the possibility that George Zimmerman is a Hispanic Southern racist vigilante redneck. Not impossible. But looking less likely by the day.)
Sukie: Indeed, let's get Libby with a trumped up process crime in a case that should not have even gone forward because...IRAQ!
We got Libby because he broke the law and got caught. But given his egregious role (along with Judith Miller) in getting us into a debilitating and unnecessary war with Iraq I shed no tears when he was (rightfully) convicted.
Love said...
How is it there are so many here that are apparently absolutely positive Zimmerman is not guilty of any crime whatsoever??
Where are all these people who say he's not guilty of anything? There are people here skeptical of the murder 2 charge, myself among them.
Love and his/her/its crowd are the only ones certain and they're certain he's guilty.
Where are all of these "riots" everybody is talking about??
What happens if the Lefties' guilty verdict isn't rendered.
Unless, of course, Love means all the black on white beating attacks over the last couple of weeks - Gainesville, Baltimore Portland OR, Toledo.
Don't Tread on the Facts: "Had you any curiosity about what Mr. Martin may have been up to"
Do you have information related to any of that? Anytihng remotely related to any real "facts?"
Other than walking back from the store...?
If not...you're full of shit.
Someone did a Lexis Nexus or a similar search for White Hispanic throughout the AP, Reuters, etc., and came up with only 3 or 4 hits prior to George Zimmerman. So, if it was a term used before, it was not prevalent enough to make it into most people's consciousness.
Also, he identifies himself as Hispanic on his voter registration (which we showed had the option for multi-ethnic). AP style, at least, is to use the person's preferred identity when it has no relation to the story. Which, since we know Zimmerman lead the push to get justice for a black man who was beaten, we know he does not harbor racial animosity (or if he does, we can't prove it through actions and past history), so his race has no bearing on the case, so he should be called Hispanic, by most news styles. Why he isn't is an open question.
Does anyone doubt that a local trial will result in a conviction for 2nd degree murder? Only if Z has a death wish does he not push for change of venue.
Justin - What do riots in 2001 have to do with any of this?
Nothing.
Matthew - Zimmerman works with at risk black youths. He has many friends from all ethnic backgrounds. He is no racist.
Love - the fact is your side is pushing for bounties and riots in 2012 if they don't get Z's head on a platter.
I'm more than willing to allow legal proceedings to unfold; it's what I've wanted all along. But there were two things in the prosecutor's statement that I didn't care for: her calling Trayvon's parents "sweet" and her promise to them when she began to "get justice for Trayvon." She's an appointed special prosecutor. Her duty is to the facts and the law. She's not supposed to have a dog in the fight.
Andy R:Also, the idea that white people are under threat from some gang of angry black people composed of Holder, Obama, and the New Black Panthers seems a little far fetched.
I always thought it was far fetched that the United States Attorney General would offer his congratulations to someone with a track record of racial incitement like that of Al Sharpton, but he just did it nonetheless.
Racial incitement = black person expressing opinion.
edutcher - Once again, you're lying through what few teeth you still have in that empty head of yours.
I've never said Zimmerman was guilty of anyting...ever.
I merely asked why so many have taken up his defense without a shred of real evidence or fact to support that defense.
He was patrolling the area with a loaded handgun, got out of his vehicle to follow someone who was unarmed, and ended up killing that person.
If you're sooooo middle of the road on this, tell me why Zimmerman didn't just call the cops, report what he saw or suspected and move on?
Why get out of the car? Why confront anyone for any reason? Why not stop following when told by the dispatcher that he did not have to do that?
He's not a cop. Cops call for back up.
Zimmerman will get plenty of time to answer all of those questions...then you can make a decision.
Michele Dulak Thomson: But "white Hispanic" was obviously a way of deflecting the news that George Zimmerman wasn't "George Zimmerman, white Southern racist vigilante redneck," but "George Zimmerman, Hispanic."
I was just saying the label wasn't coined last month. I agree with you that the media probably latched on to it for the reasons you state.
What do you think of media outlets that were trying to make Trayvon out as a thug because he had the "no limit nigga" screenname on the internet? Is there anything unusual at all about a teenager having a screenname like that? Wow, Trayvon listened to rap music like most every other 17 year old in America does.
"He was patrolling the area with a loaded handgun, got out of his vehicle to follow someone who was unarmed, and ended up killing that person."
-- He was actually not patrolling. This is why you need to get your facts straight.
"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
First she has to prove that Zimmerman did not "reasonably believe" the shooting was necessary.
"The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree..."
Then she has to prove "depraved mind."
Without a suprise eyewitness, I don't see how she possibly gets a conviction.
You might not like Florida law, but there it is.
LoafingOaf,
I went to Wikipedia just out of curiosity. It's nice to know that, say, 40.2% (I love the ridiculously down-to-the-tenth-of-a-percent precision) of Salvadoran nationals are "white." How can they tell, and why would they want to? Did someone smuggle a copy of the Wannsee Protocol into the Census Bureau, or what?
"I merely asked why so many have taken up his defense without a shred of real evidence or fact to support that defense."
-- No evidence except witnesses, his injury, passing a voice stress test and -- you know, witnesses. Without something we don't know, this is not a good case. So, I'm assuming there's something we don't know that convinced the prosecutor to roll the dice.
Love, I agree with your points. Very strange that Zimmerman got out of the car with a loaded gun to follow Trayvon.
He was patrolling the area with a loaded handgun, got out of his vehicle to follow someone who was unarmed, and ended up killing that person.
He's the sort of gun owner who gives responsible gun owners a bad name. People shouldn't be getting concealed carry licenses so that they'll feel emboldened to follow people around in a provocative fashion that might lead to a fight.
Speaking of "justice":
Law enforcement experts said that Sanford police made key errors early in the investigation and made crucial decisions before important evidence was gathered.
Martin's cell phone records were not immediately checked. Investigators did not talk with key witnesses for more than a week.
While police conducted a criminal background check on Martin, as well as drug and alcohol tests, Zimmerman was not subject the same tests.
It was learned later that Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 for assaulting a police officer and has had a history of aggression and violence, including domestic violence.
Criminal background checks, along with drug and alcohol tests...on the one who is shot dead...but not the shooter?
Other than a cop being the shooter, anybody ever hear of anyting like that?
"What neither had a right to do is physically assault the other, and the only possible question here is as to who started the altercation."
Not sure about FL laws, but assault doen't have to be physical. Assault often is confused with Battery.
Depending on FL laws & definitions of battery, chasing someone might be assault.
Love said...
edutcher - Once again, you're lying through what few teeth you still have in that empty head of yours.
I've never said Zimmerman was guilty of anyting...ever.
No, Love refused to entertain anything but the media version of what happened. Love was so cocksure he did something wrong and he/she/it wanted him arrested even when the prosecutor said there wasn't enough evidence.
Love had already adudged him guilty when he/she/it wanted him arrested.
I merely asked why so many have taken up his defense without a shred of real evidence or fact to support that defense.
Lie. Love refused to entertain any contention that didn't fit the Lefty line that Zimmerman had hunted down and murdered a helpless little kid.
He was patrolling the area with a loaded handgun, got out of his vehicle to follow someone who was unarmed, and ended up killing that person.
Patrolling the area and getting out of his car isn't illegal.
And he may have killed in self-defense.
What's so wrong with that, except that it doesn't work to help re-elect the Messiah?
PS Cute little hillbilly allusion. Bet I've got more of my own teeth.
Given that racial harmony did not take place, I'm guessing the waters will continue to rise and the planet will not heal.
"First she has to prove that Zimmerman did not "reasonably believe" the shooting was necessary."
She has to prove a threat to M. Which she could prove if she can establish that he chased him.
If she establishes that Z. committed assault with a threat, then stand your ground is not applicable.
"Patrolling the area and getting out of his car isn't illegal."
True, but I think chasing someone or threatening someone is a threat. Which is assault. Which is a crime.
This charge was made for two purposes. One is to passify the lynch mob and calm them down. The other is to get Zimmermann off because he is not guilty under Florida law. Proving murder is much harder than proving manslaughter. If they really wanted to get him they would have charged him with manslaghter. I have recent experience on a jury. Some people will not vote guilty unless every thing is bolted down for sure. To them beyond a reasonable doubt means beyond all doubt.
He will be found not guilty or have a hung jury, depending on how many blacks or hispanics are on the jury.
Lets see if this turns out the way the black activists, self-loathing white liberals and progressive Jews want it to turn out.
Or they look like they did in the Duke Lacrosse case.
The special prosecutor seems to be one puffed-up, self-impressed woman.
Seems what is at stake here is the right of neighborhood watches to do patrols. And the implication that if you follow young blacks in a Mall, your store, a neighborhood to see what they are up to - if they jump you...well, you "started it". You provoke what the state and media thinks is their rightful violent attack on you and you lose your right to self-defense.
I predict guns will be flying off the storeshelves in anticipation of black rioting if GZ is found innocent, or if he is found guilty and thus come to believe they can attack people with impunity on the claim they were "being stalked".
'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards.'
Uh, Cedar, guns and ammo have been flying off the shelves since the Summer of '08.
This is the result I was expecting. Politically, nothing else would have been acceptable.
Zimmerman will be found not guilty; he'll just have to be run through the wringer first. The masses demand it.
Why get out of the car?
Because he was trying to locate the address.
Why confront anyone for any reason?
We don't know who did the "confronting" in this scenario. But you assuming Zimmerman did is revealing.
Why not stop following when told by the dispatcher that he did not have to do that?
Er, the response from Zimmerman was "OK"
Though it is revealing you assume he continued to follow Martin.
As Pilate said, "What is truth?"
Love said...
Speaking of "justice":
Law enforcement experts said that Sanford police made key errors early in the investigation and made crucial decisions before important evidence was gathered.
Hilarious.
Um, love, the prosecutor just said on live television that:
A. The police conducted a "thorough and intensive investigation"
B. Said investigation was instrumental in assisting the prosecutor.
C. There are numerous homicide cases where the defendant is not immediately arrested.
You need new talking points.
Love said...
Martin's cell phone records were not immediately checked. Investigators did not talk with key witnesses for more than a week.
Please source these "facts"
Really. I can't wait to read all about them.
Sukie: "Indeed, let's get Libby with a trumped up process crime in a case that should not have even gone forward because...IRAQ!"
Gene: We got Libby because he broke the law and got caught. But given his egregious role (along with Judith Miller) in getting us into a debilitating and unnecessary war with Iraq I shed no tears when he was (rightfully) convicted.
You make Sukie's point: you don't want to punish Libby for "breaking" the law, you want him punished for your "illegal unnecessary rush to war" bullshit.
Some citizen has the audacity to ask a black thug what he's doing wandering around houses in the rain at night. Black thug tries to intimidate citizen and then, when that fails, beat him down. Citizen responds in self-defense, shoots and kills black thug.
People actually using deadly force to defend themselves from your "proles"... can't have that can we?
Socialists really hate it when you do that. That's why Zimmerman must be made into an object lesson that chills anyone getting ideas about defending themselves from street thugs. Because the Left intends to use street thugs as their brownshirts, just like last time. And the citizenry needs to be kept docile and intimidated.
Somebody ask Love if Jesse Jackson is a racist.
Hahahah. Dope.
I don't think I've ever witnessed a more elated, joyful prosecutor than Angela Corey. Her announcement was apparently the highlight of her personal and professional life – akin to a difficult birth after years and years of trying.
But it was birth by artificial insemination, inseminating "facts" beyond this particular baby's DNA. No wonder she bypassed the grand jury - this case was hers even if it came stillborn.
Standing before the sea of cameras dressed in the bright, 2nd degree of red, aside from Ms. Corey the only thing missing was Florida’s most famous public buffoon and Ms. Corey’s soul-mate: Jeff Ashton.
LoafingRacist: He's the sort of gun owner who gives responsible gun owners a bad name. People shouldn't be getting concealed carry licenses so that they'll feel emboldened to follow people around in a provocative fashion that might lead to a fight.
More speculation to motive, as if you had any clue why Zimmerman applied for a cc license.
But hey, if you want to limit the 2nd Ammendment to only those actions you approve of, how about we limit your freedom to vote, right here and now? Because you're the kind of voter who gives responsible voters a bad name. Your stupid AND corrupt.
Love said...
How is it there are so many here that are apparently absolutely positive Zimmerman is not guilty of any crime whatsoever??
I do not know whether he is guilty and those who have prejudged guilt have been challenged by me and many others. Now we are going to have a trial to determine guilt. That is because a prosecutor, presumably acting in good faith, has decided that in her opinion there is a "reasonable certainty" that she can get a conviction.
I say she presumably acted in good faith because we will never know for sure. She is a Republican with a reputation as a hard ass prosecutor (and some overzealousness in her history.) All politically ambitious prosecutors have some inherent potential conflicts in high profile cases. In her case, if she had decided not to prosecute, she would have become a special target of the left for the rest of her career.
Did this influence her? I have no idea. But now there is a tremendous array of state power arrayed against Zimmerman in a racially and politically charged atmosphere. It's not an ideal environment for doing justice, or for a trial result that people will accept. In that sense, Zimmerman's life is mess whether he is convicted or not.
The left is supposed to be intensely interested in fairness and civil liberties. There will be an opportunity for lots of people to demonstrate that they actually believe what they say about the rights of defendants.
So far they are not doing particularly well.
Almost Ali said...
I don't think I've ever witnessed a more elated, joyful prosecutor than Angela Corey. Her announcement was apparently the highlight of her personal and professional life – akin to a difficult birth after years and years of trying.
Yeah, I caught that too, but we have never seen her before. Maybe that's just her personality. My attitude on that question is wait and see.
@Michelle Dulak Thomson:
Jay has already had at least two people answer that question, so I think we can stop now.
Revenant said...
This is the result I was expecting. Politically, nothing else would have been acceptable.
Zimmerman will be found not guilty; he'll just have to be run through the wringer first. The masses demand it.
Hope you're right on that last para, Dad.
You and I both know the "masses" don't always accept a verdict.
Love said...
Speaking of "justice":
"1. Law enforcement experts said that Sanford police made key errors early in the investigation and made crucial decisions before important evidence was gathered.
"2. Martin's cell phone records were not immediately checked. Investigators did not talk with key witnesses for more than a week.
"3. While police conducted a criminal background check on Martin, as well as drug and alcohol tests, Zimmerman was not subject the same tests.
"4. It was learned later that Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 for assaulting a police officer and has had a history of aggression and violence, including domestic violence.
"5. Criminal background checks, along with drug and alcohol tests...on the one who is shot dead...but not the shooter?
"6. Other than a cop being the shooter, anybody ever hear of anyting like that?
Hmmm. Where to start.
1. what "law enforcement experts?" Cite please. If they're not directly involved in the investigation, they're irrelevant. Talking heads.
2. Yeah? So?
3. This is the same as 6, BTW. Answer: You can test a dead body because it is dead. You can't test a live body just because you want to. The live body still has Constitutional privacy rights. The situation did not arise that would lead to an exception to those rights.
4. If you know the info in #4, then how can you say #5 was never done?
I am glad to see that a few conservative bloggers still support justice as this 2nd degree charge was the logical outcome given the evidence.
rv - you're insane if you think 2nd degree murder is the correct charge. Typical batshit insane leftist.
AndyR: a follow up question to my initial question: what evidence do you have that the investigation was "botched"
Angela Corey asked for prayers for Trayvon's family and "our prosecution team?" I'm not a veteran prosecutor press conference watcher, so I don't know if that is usual for a prosecutor to do, but it sure did strike me as strange. I'm a little bit taken aback at the encouragement to pray by a government official, conducting official business (the law!). And to pray for her! My computer got hung up, so I have to finish watching it. (I support this prosecution!)
“Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition.”
Yeah, right. It's getting real close to time for whites, and white Hispanics, to go on a rampage.
Angela Corey better start praying the OJ jury agrees to come out of retirement.
Apparently she's not charging him with a hate crime. So what's the motive? Why did he pick this skinny kid out and murder him?
Kind of bizarre to go forward with a murder prosecution when you can't explain what happened.
I think I can explain what happened. The guy was on top of him, hitting him, and he pulled out his gun and shot him.
That's not murder, is it? Who would call that murder?
Manslaughter, at most, or negligent homicide. I'm just not seeing any facts that would support a murder 2 prosecution.
I suspect this is another case of prosecutors overcharging in the hopes that the defense will plead to a lesser charge.
Canuck,
"She has to prove a threat to M. Which she could prove if she can establish that he chased him."
Possibly, and her approach might be to show that Martin felt threatened. But there's nothing from any source (that we know of) to indicate that Zimmerman was "chasing" Martin. This includes the statements from the girlfriend on the phone.
Following at some distance, yes.
Chasing, no.
Michael said...
AndyR. You appear to know little about the history of race riots. Whites have nothing to fear. Well, there might be a hapless truck driver in the wrong place ripped from his cab and stoned but on the whole whites will watch on t.v. Be advised that your political opinions and solidarity with the cause are not apparent to the mob. Nor of any interest. Nor exculpatory. Just a head's up since you have a tendency to ride your high horse into the wrong corrals.
4/11/12 6:00 PM
I don't know what planet you live on but here in South Florida quite a few whites were killed in race riots in the 80's. Believe or not Liberty City and Over town in Miami are not blasted, desolate areas devoid of any businesses. There are businesses in those neighborhoods including white and latino owned businesses. Riots aren't announced, they start like tornados catching people at work unawares. I don't know if Zimmerman is innocent or not. But if he is tried and walks living in South Florida it's safe bet that a race riot could ensue. And if that were to happen it could rather horrible.
If Andy R wants to be The White Sacrificial Lamb he should sit himself on the corner of 62 street and NW 7th Ave by the Democratic Party Headquarters when the verdict comes in. Thanks Andy R for taking one for the team.
Tourists, worry yourselves not. All the trendy areas will be safe and sound as the cops and national Guard will see to it that no rioter crosses the line alive. Just like in the 80's. That is the understood agreement. Burn your areas all you like but leave the the important areas alone. That's the Miami Way.
If there is a riot, a bad riot, I just hope Sharpton and the riot inciters get the high speed lead treatment because they will have earned it.
Apparently she's not charging him with a hate crime. So what's the motive?
2nd degree murder carries an element of depravity - in due course they will claim Zimmerman was/is depraved, which will lead to a festival of hate.
I'm not familiar with Florida law, but the prosecutor talked about some type of pre-trial hearing on self defense and how difficult is it to prosecute cases with a a self defense position by the defendant. To me, that signaled that she sees a significant likelihood that the charge will be dismissed prior to trial (which absent significant evidence not yet public, is probably the correct result). The best evidence is what we have not seen -- when Zimmerman foolishly cooperated with the police and answered hours of questions (presumably on video tape).
The race hustlers and the politicans made a charge virtually inevitable. It made me sick to see Sharpton with the Martin family, which generally has been very commendable in their actions and, of course, worthy of the sincerest sympathies from everyone.
A miracle has happened...Revenant @ 7:02 sees the case the same way that I do.
Zimmerman has an airtight defense that will win if he sticks to it no matter what the evidence thrown at him, and he will be acquitted.
That's the way it is supposed to work. It brings closure to a potential Hatfields- McCoys feud.
We human masses have a subconscious need to do a measured strike back at a man who attacks our friends/tribe.
That need is how Kit Carson handled business on the American West's no man's land in the 1830s. It was called cutting coup,probably from a French trapper dialect, and it was done to keep peace among the native American tribes when there had been a killing. And it worked.
The Masses (of which I am one ) need to know that there is justice in the land.
Not that I am calling Dr Spock-Revenant part of the masses. We know that he must be half Vulcan, and Vulcans are puzzled by the needs for human Justice. It does not always compute in their superior reasoning brains.
I note that the Washington Post article has a new, smiling photograph of Zimmerman. And the caption on Martin's photograph (the one where he looks 14) notes that it is "undated."
Boy, it's nice when your local monopoly newspaper feels the need to respond to criticism.
Revenant said: Zimmerman will be found not guilty; he'll just have to be run through the wringer first. The masses demand it.
Disagree. When it comes to race, a guilty man can be acquitted (OJ), so why can't an innocent man be found guilty?
Sorry, it's an NYT article, not Washington Post.
I get the feeling that at least some people at the Times are making a conscious effort not to railroad anybody.
This ought to be interesting. Will the race-baiters end up reaping the whirlwind?
Zimmerman has a new attorney, by the way.
how telling that corey cited "justice for trayvon", not justice for zimmerman, nor justice in general, not even justice for martin but rather, familiarly, by the first name of the victim! this is a face/butt-saving political prosecution.
Martha Stewart was basically convicted of talking to her stock broker about a stock about to go bad. Even in the United States that's still legal. Her mistake was lying to the cops about that legal conversation.
The FBI claimed they asked if she had a recollection of that "legal conversation," but did not have a record of what they had said, and Martha said they had asked if she had a record of "that legal conversation," to which she truthfully answered that she did not.
So it was a they said/she said, and she lost.
Anyway, I think she got prosecuted for flipping off an influential congresscritter, and convicted of being rich and famous.
As for Scooter Libby, he deserved it. He helped get us into an unnecessary war facilitated by his good friend and factually challenged journalist, Judith Miller.
What on earth does this have to do with the actual charge, which was that he had lied (again no written or taped record, I think) about who had told him about Ms. Plame's identity, which had nothing to do with who told Bob Novak, and was well known already to have been Richard Armitage.
No, Scooter Libby was prosecuted and convicted of being Vice-President Cheney's chief of staff, plain and simple.
"The prosecutor is a Democrat?
No --- but his lynch mob is."
It's a tradition that goes way back.
What is it about lynching that democrats enjoy so much. I think it's marching and group yelling, oh yea and the evil, they do like their evil.
The prosecutor has no expectation of winning, but can you even imagine her not charging after all this insanity. There was no choice. In fact, I think she overcharged, because she knows the evidence will clear him and she didn't want it to be close. She knows he's innocent, and is just doing her political duty. It's the only way to quell the mob... for now.
Don't Tread: "You said upthread that no one's ever heard the label 'white hispanic' before. That's not true. I've heard it before, and you can look it up on Wikipedia.
As for this....
1. You clearly do not know what 'tea and skittles' means in street parlance
2. You have never sampled Mr. Martin's Twitter feed
3. You are unaware of how far away the nearest 'convenience' store is from where the incident took place
4. you are willfully ignorant"
LoafingRacist: What the fuck are you on about?
1) that you still haven't guessed that "skittles and tea" is code for something else.
2) Martin's twitter feed is that of a gangster-wanna-be.
3) The closet store with "skittles and tea" (assuming you are dumb enough to take urban slang at face value) is out of Martin's area of interest, ie. he was casing houses for more jewelry theft
4) Don'tTread is right, you are a pathetic moron.
LoafingRacist: I didn't mind when you were trolling me (nothing new about right-wing trolls around here), but because in a previous thread you started making up words and placing them into quote and pretending I had said them, I'm gonna say goodbye to you.
Good. You don't like it when I just make up shit about you like you do with Zimmerman. Maybe by end of night, you'll actually get it...
Then again, I think you are deliberately stupid. These are the talking points you were given, but you're not even bright enough to defend them. The likes of MediaMatters feeds you with a shovel, and you just lap it up. Its why I can't wish any ill will your direction - you're already being punished. Lap it up bitch.
*obligotry note that LoafingOaf is an avowed racist who uses slurs like "wetback" and "spic" when referring to Latinos like Zimmerman*
A critical piece of evidence we have not seen or heard of is the autopsy. If Martin was shot in the back, Zimmerman has no self defense claim. If Martin was shot in the center of the chest with an exit wound in the center of the back at medium range the claim is possible but not compelling. If Martin was shot in the left side of the chest (or right side if Zimmerman is left handed)at close range, Zimmerman has a strong case for self defense in view of the police report that his back was wet with grass coupled with the back of the head injury.
Kansas City: If the case survives until trial, and it is assigned to a good judge, I think Zimmerman should opt for the case to be tried before a judge, not a jury.
Based on what we know now, I don't see how Zimmerman can be convicted. Suppose he has a jury trial and there are six blacks on the jury and six whites. The jury will deadlock six to six.
Hagar: What on earth does this have to do with the actual charge?
Nothing at all. His helping push us into an absurd and unnecessary war that got a bunch of good Americans killed for no good reason is just one of the reasons I never liked him.
Alex: Does anyone doubt that a local trial will result in a conviction for 2nd degree murder?
I do. Given the state of race relations in this country, if there are six whites and six blacks on the jury the jury will deadlock six to six.
Andy R. said...
"Trayvon Death Case “Botched”, Says Former Miami-Dade Top Cop"
But I guess the Althouse Comment Crew understands police procedure better than the police do.
Andy, I have a solid understanding of proper police procedure. Based on what I've read, you don't. Please tell me how the investigation was "botched".
My understanding is that Zimmerman was let go under the stand your ground law. But many, including the author of the law in Fla., said it was a misapplication of the law, that the law was never meant to be used that way. And that indeed the police were going to charge him, but they were overruled.
I cannot tell you how proud I am that the Attorney General has such nice things to say about Al Sharpton. What a sweet man!.
"He's a friend," says Mr. Holder. Of course he's a friend. He's everybody's friend. Except for those Jews.
"He's a partner," says the Attorney General of the United States. Except on that Crown Heights riot. I think Al was flying solo on that one. Yes? Hopefully? I would hate to think that our A.G. is a partner to riot-causing fuckwits.
At least not in this country.
Again, we have not seen the evidence. But the sense of the evidence thus far is that a good judge would almost certainly acquit. Juries are too unpredictable, particularly in a case with racial overtones.
"Possibly, and her approach might be to show that Martin felt threatened. But there's nothing from any source (that we know of) to indicate that Zimmerman was "chasing" Martin. This includes the statements from the girlfriend on the phone."
Yes, but we are not privy to all the evidence and the autopsy report. I have a different take on the prosecutor. She's the type that likes to win and I don't think she plays to lose. She thinks she has a good chance of a conviction. I'm surprised -- thought the charge would be manslaughter.
The shooter in the five Tulsa killings of random black victims is apparently full blooded Cherokee.
Sources are reporting the shooter's father was murdered by a black assailant a year or so before.
Revenge was apparently the motive in the "white on black" murders that have been made part of the Zimmerman controversy by the carpetbaggers.
Perhaps Michelle Obama can start a "Protect our Children - Have more White Friends" campaign as whites are 700% less likely to kill blacks than blacks are likely to kill blacks.
But then again, this entire model of race is an anti-scientific Phrenological construct. Could it be the thought disorder produced by forced imposition of phrenological race identity results in a quality of self-immolation that causes its victims to murder with greater than normal frequency?
Lots of idiocy around here. This is where I come when I need my daily dose of idiocy and virulence.
Anyhow,
David said,
The power of the state, the ambition of the prosecutor and numerous powerful interests against one simple and impecunious man. Keep that in mind as you comment on this case as it unfolds. 4/11/12 5:25 P.M.
"One simple and impecuni ous man." Oh, that's good. That's really good.....What do you really know about him?
Meanwhile, as we contemplate the hardships visited on him by the all powerful state of Oz, do you think we could spare a moment to also reflect that a young man is DEAD? He'll never see another sunny day or rainy evening, never talk to his girlfriend again, never go to his father's wedding, never say Hi to his momma.
I know that's not a popular concept around here, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Bagoh20 said,
"What is it about lynching that democrats enjoy so much. I think it's marching and group yelling, oh yea and the evil, they do like their evil. 4/11/12 9:26 P.M.
Bagoh, I have heard you make many statements of the decent man.
But this just breaks my heart. It really does.
lesyn:Meanwhile, as we contemplate the hardships visited on him by the all powerful state of Oz, do you think we could spare a moment to also reflect that a young man is DEAD? He'll never see another sunny day or rainy evening, never talk to his girlfriend again, never go to his father's wedding, never say Hi to his momma.
Well, you are right of course. Trayvon lost everything he ever had and everything he could hope to be. And that's tragic.
I know you're not saying this, but the fact that there has already been one tragedy doesn't mean we should rush to judgment on a related matter about which we have the power, by proceeding slowly, to make a wise and fully informed decision.
leslyn - go stick a sock in it. I will not shed one tear for a nascent gang banger. We need more Zimmermna's and less Trayvons.
willem said,
"Perhaps Michelle Obama can start a "Protect our Children -Have more White Friends" campaign as whites are 700% less likely to kill blacks than blacks are likely to kill blacks."
The word that keeps coming to mind is "vicious." Why don't you write and tell her your great idea?
A, I picture you as a sour old man sitting alone in your kitchen, with no friend but your computer, and whom even your grandchildren won't speak to.
I predict you'll die lonely.
Fen: You make Sukie's point: you don't want to punish Libby for "breaking" the law, you want him punished for your "illegal unnecessary rush to war" bullshit.
Of course I want him punished for pushing us into an absurd and unwarranted war with Iraq which killed 4500 good young Americans died and nearly bankrupted this country.
We weren't unfortunately able to punish him for that since there's no law against being disloyal, immoral and unAmerican. But we could punish him for his role in the Valerie Plame affair, to which I say, thank god for small favors.
Gene,
Thank you for your courtesy to a remark that had its snarky elements.
leslyn - wrong on all counts.
Of go fuck off. Act like a thug, die like a thug. You want to suck on Treyvor's dead cock, knock yourself out.
We're supposed to feel sympathy for a dead thug? Yeah right.
Gene: Of course I want him punished for pushing us into an absurd and unwarranted war with Iraq which
Why don't you just wear an Idiot tag on your forehead, libtard.
which killed 4500 good young Americans
Oh fuck you. You don't give a rats ass about the troops, you just use their corpse as a prop for you anti-war bullshit.
I really hope you die. By polar bears. You are scum of the worst fucking kind, Gene.
SukieTawdry said...
I'm more than willing to allow legal proceedings to unfold; it's what I've wanted all along. But there were two things in the prosecutor's statement that I didn't care for: her calling Trayvon's parents "sweet" and her promise to them when she began to "get justice for Trayvon." She's an appointed special prosecutor. Her duty is to the facts and the law. She's not supposed to have a dog in the fight. 4/11/12 6:24 P.M.
You don't know about criminal trials and the fact that we have an adversarial system of justice. That means both sides have a dog in the fight, they're supposed to, it's ethical and "special" is irrelevant.
Her duty is to represent the people by bringing the most appropriate charge under the law, and Constitutionally securing a conviction.
You're confusing the prosecutor with a judge.
A--you say so, but I don't believe it.
Gene--try to ignore Fen. He's having a meltdown, plus his shorts are too tight.
It happens around here with some frequency. A blog is the last refuge of a psychopath.
Although I have to say "by polar bears" was kind of funny.
--by polar bears
--by scum-sucking maggots
--by tooth decay
--by eating roadkill
--by moose droppings
--by watching "Sarah Palin's Alaska." (Boring? You betcha.")
--by foot fungus.
--by spending an afternoon in solitary confinement with Alex.
--by hairy caterpillars
--by cats.
--by flying monkeys
--by editing this blog for grammar.
leslyn--so that explains your blog contributions? Sorry--you served up a high hanging curveball
leslyn said: Gene--try to ignore Fen. He's having a meltdown, plus his shorts are too tight.
I see what you mean. Either that or old Fen's off his meds again. There's a lot of that going on around here due to sun spots, solar ejecta and Obama's refusal to bomb Iran.
, “Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition.”
Yes you do.
For a long time, conservatives and racists have made the Trayvon Martin shooting about the potential danger that white people are facing.
Well in all fairness the head of the New Black Panther Party has called on the party faithful to kill white people.
It's interesting how you conclude that all conservatives are racist.Do you do you're venn diagrams in crayon?
"But we could punish him for his role in the Valerie Plame affair, to which I say, thank god for small favors."
-- Yet the actual person responsible for the leak, as far as I know, was never charged, and in fact, his identity was covered up by Fitzgerald so he could continue to pursue other people. But, yeah. Sure. It was all on the up and up.
Re the plame thing: Richar Armitage was the leaker
"A, I picture you as a sour old man sitting alone in your kitchen, with no friend but your computer, and whom even your grandchildren won't speak to.
"
Leslyn's first error is taking anything Alex says seriously. She obviously hasn't been here long enough.
"She obviously hasn't been here long enough."
I couldn't agree less.
"Bagoh, I have heard you make many statements of the decent man.
But this just breaks my heart. It really does. "
Me too. I wish the Democrats' past never happened or that they got better. This lynch mob shows us all that they have not. In fact, I'll bet this lynching is more popular among Dems than the old ones were.
"Lynching" may be over the top, but some Democrats were trying to get a mob to go and get this man, with lies, bounties, and giving out his address. What was going to happen when they got him. It sounds exactly like the second act of a Jim Crow tragedy.
Being decent is what this is all about. I'm still on the side of decency. How about you?
It would be a much better system if prosecutors tried to achieve justice rather than focus strictly on winning.
Politicizing the justice system is sure to lead to injustice and is exactly the wrong way to go.
Don't know if Z man committed 2nd degree murder but even if he is found not guilty, his legal fees are going to be steep. Maybe defendants should be reimbursed for at least some part of their expenses when they are prosecuted but found not guilty. To save the taxpayers money, make the prosecutors reimburse (out of their own pocket) the not guilty.
Never thought about it until Bag's remark but it stands to reason that most of the lynchings were perpetrated by dems. The GOP freed the slaves and worked to help those freed slaves after the Civil War. The dems were the white power party that worked for a century to keep down blacks. Lynching blacks was one way of keeping down blacks.
History is what it is. No wonder it makes dems sad (more likely angry) to be reminded of their history.
Matthew Sablan: -- Yet the actual person responsible for the leak, as far as I know, was never charged, and in fact, his identity was covered up by Fitzgerald so he could continue to pursue other people.
Libby lied to a grand jury, apparently to cover up his defense of phony intelligence information he was stovepiping to Cheney to justify the Iraq war. He was not a good public servant, at least not for America. The British once complained it was hard to tell on a given day just who he was working for anyway.
Ms Corey is a liar.
>> garage mahal said...
>> First time I can remember
>> white supremacists rushing to the
>> defense of a hispanic Jew.
Excuse me, but why is it considered OK to accuse other forum members of being white supremacists? That's one notch below calling them rapists.
Why isn't this garage fellow being banned? If that isn't an example of "hav(ing) the ulterior motive of destroying the conversation and driving people away from this forum", then what is?
One expert on criminal defense has a criticism of the Zimmerman indictment.
“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”
“I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and overcharged. This case will not – if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.”
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-prof-alan-dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/
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