According to Wikileaked documents, his body was brought to the United States on a CIA plane.
So we had this respectful burial at sea, which was intended to impress/mollify/appease whomever, and now it turns out it never happened. I think messages of respect can be meaningful, even if they are lies, but they must be believed. The messenger needs a reputation for honesty. And the exposure of one lie — especially one this big — makes all your other messages suspect.
Should Obama apologize? What's the point? It will not be believed.
IN THE COMMENTS: Many people don't like the way I've phrased this post. Traditional guy says: "this was a leak from a gossipy analysis done by Stratfor which is not a US Government entity but is a private seller of rumors."
And fleetusa said: "This is no longer on Drudge. Error? Internet Mischief?" I original got to the story I linked to through Drudge. It was the top story at Drudge an hour ago, with a photo of bin Laden. I wonder if someone in the administration asked/pressured Drudge to take it down. It is harmful to American interests. I wouldn't have posted if it hadn't been so conspicuously proclaimed on Drudge.
March 6, 2012
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If they ever wanted to be believed, they could always run it through somebody known to be honest.
They only wanted it as narrative.
It fills the airwaves and displaces everything else.
Displacement is the point, not belief.
Wikileaks got their reputation for hacking the State Department cables. But this was a leak from a gossipy analysis done by Stratfor which is not a US Government entity but is a private seller of rumors .
Uh, read closely. The wikileaks only show the somebody at stratfor "believed" that he wasn't buried at sea.
There's no proof or revelation of any facts contrary to the official story.
I doubt this rumor. Of course the whole thing is a poor job of controling the narrative from the start by the current administration.
I boldly predict the next rumor will be that Osama is still alive, and either in hiding or held captive by the CIA somewhere.
If riots ensue, can we chant "Obama lied! People died!" at him?
Althouse the article's source makes no such claim. It's all supposition. It's only what someone thinks and believes.
Fail.
Here's where I am. I don't believe anything this administration says, none of what they leak and little of what I see done. This is most likely another layer of lies.
The linked article does not support the statement that his body was brought to the US. It merely says that the director of intelligence for a contractor "believes" that it happened, citing his similar "belief" that the FBI and DOJ would have treated the "body" as a "crime scene."
I have no idea (and doubt that anyone else here does either) whether that fellow has any solid basis for his stated "beliefs." Certainly, the linked article provides none.
Has this been confirmed?
it will not be believed
That's never stopped him before.
Blogger traditionalguy said...
Wikileaks got their reputation for hacking the State Department cables. But this was a leak from a gossipy analysis done by Stratfor which is not a US Government entity but is a private seller of rumors ."
This is exactly right.
We now have another clue as to why Althouse voted for Obama: gullibility.
And no, of course Obama doesn't need to apologize for an idiotic, speculative email exchange between two wanna-be's...
Well, the story doesn't seem to have much support, it's about what one guy believes. He's not even stating that he has personal knowledge of what happened, or that anyone with personal knowledge says that OBL was brought to the US. The story gives no basis on which the guy believes this may be the case, other than the Eichmann scenario. Not much here.
This is no longer on Drudge. Error? Internet Mischief?
If it did happen someone in the WH is really stupid. I guess we knew that.
rcommal said...
"Has this been confirmed?"
No, and it won't be.
It's bullshit, ginned up by two fan boys.
Although, I must confess, it would be hilarious for Obama to apologize for this bullshit too, as he has for other bullshit before.
I also have heard from insiders who hacked Garage's e-mails that Bin Laden shaved his beard and now works for Scott Walker.
You're using made up rumors to attack Obama?
While we're making stuff up, can we get another post about how incandescent light bulbs have been banned?
"If it did happen someone in the WH is really stupid. I guess we knew that."
Well, it didn't happen, but yes, the White House and it's current resident-in-chief is a moron.
And yes, we knew that.
Yeah, the leaks are from Stratfor, therefore this is a Nothingburger.
I can't seem to recall a time when the Islamic Rage Boys waited patiently for factual confirmation before the murders begin. They don't need facts, they don't read for context, they just need a hint of being slighted.
This post and it's headline are probably provocation enough.
@Richard Dolan
The officers of the aircraft carrier know. The sailors too, probably. And I am sure, some of the sailors families. And unless the sailors have been severely threatened, there is where a leak would occur. Since it hasn't,(because you can threaten all you want but people will do crazy things),I don't really think the e-mail leak is accurate.(and I don't trust ANY government)
Not facts, just reasonable assumptions based on peoples behavior.
With that said, I wouldn't put it past the government to lie about the bodies disposal either.
"You're using made up rumors to attack Obama?"
Don't worry your plaster head, failed hat mannequin, she'll (most very likely) vote for Obama again.
His voters are like that, don't you know?
Obama has been lying (about a lot of things) for a long time. This story was too good to believe when it was said the first time. They were making it up as they went along.
The reporting on this is shameful. One analyst with a private firm speculated that he was brought back to the U.S. He's got no actual knowledge of what happened. Whoever wrote that article & headline is a complete hack.
time to initiate the Fonzarelli Protocol.
I don't believe that it is true, because I don't believe that even this Administration could be so stupid. Yes, they have shown an amazing ineptitude when it comes to foreign affairs. It is what happens when you put a political hack with no foreign relations experience in charge of the State Department. And, then have her overseen by someone who has even less experience, to amount that he oversees anyone.
as long as he is dead who cares where the body is?
Shocked that Obama would lie. That's like a dog barking or the sun rises. Move along, move along... nothing to see. Obama's not a total fraud and liar.
After all, if he lies about this -- a story he's so personally tied to after his braggadocio -- then he would lie about anything and everything.
Move along, move along... Obama's not a liar!
LINK: RUSSIA TODAY
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha.
Next Althouse post link will be to Infowars, I suppose.
Tips for media consumption #1. Examine the source.
In the grand scheme that is the Obama administration doing its utmost to fuck up the country, I gotta give this one, who the fuck cares?
One live lying asshole lying about a dead lying asshole.
"Carnifex said...
The officers of the aircraft carrier know. The sailors too, probably."
Sorry, but this is absurd. It would be a simple task to fake a burial at sea. And hide it from every officer and sailor. Simple.
Osama is right here in my kitchen, making me bacon and pancakes at this very moment. He thinks this is all hilarious. He likes it when I call him "cuddle kitten".
I know you all don't believe this. You probably believe the administration, and that is some naive shit right there.
You're using made up rumors to attack Obama?
While we're making stuff up, can we get another post about how incandescent light bulbs have been banned?
I know. They weren't actually banned, but somehow a lot of them have disappeared from a lot of stores since the first of the year.
And, we really don't need rumors to attack Obama, as he is the most inept, corrupt, and, it turns out, laziest and most self indulgent, President of most of our personal experiences.
I’ll reiterate what I wrote the week that the news of Bin Laden’s death broke:
1) I think we actually did kill Bin Laden because it’s nearly eighteen months before the next Presidential election. If Bin Laden ever turned up alive, Obama and those closest to him would be finished.
2) It was a sign of both weakness and stupidity for the administration to refuse to show the body the way we have other prominent public enemies and terrorists that we’ve killed in past.
"The US Govt needs to make body pics available like the MX's do, with OBL's pants pulled down, to shout down the lunatics like Alex Jones and Glenn Beck," Burton says in another message.
I guess in that case Osama has a lot in common with Anthony Weiner.
It's ultimately a rumor, but I must believe it is correct. There is no way the Obama administration and the CIA dump an important piece of evidence in the ocean. If this report is correct, I think more highly of Obama.
I called this way back when:
"This body is also an important piece of evidence. Religious traditions do not dictate that we start teaching creationism in schools. Likewise, religious traditions should not dictate that we throw forensic science out the window. Now who is fighting the war on science?
For the record, I think the sea burial story is just a cover story. There is no way the CIA threw such an important piece of evidence into the sea.
5/2/11 12:14 PM"
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6329595&postID=7790045554917028041
"I wonder if someone in the administration asked/pressured Drudge to take it down. It is harmful to American interests. I wouldn't have posted if it hadn't been so conspicuously proclaimed on Drudge."
Who doesn't know Stratfor is a joke?
I mean, besides the dopes at Wikileaks and Obama voters?
This just in: Osama's body has been found in the same vault where they keep Obama's real birth certificate.
Why would the administration take the chance of offending Muslim sensibilities? It's not like we don't know how bin Laden died.
If the Feds wanted to perform an autopsy they had their chance on ship. Tissue samples can now be easily preserved forever.
Unless one wants to get really sick and assume that the Joint Chiefs wanted to hold a beer-bash and pee on the corpse, this report just fails the "Cui Bono***" test.
*** Cui Bono was Sonny Bono's second cousin & a famous moral
philosopher.
as long as he is dead who cares where the body is?
It doesn't and wouldn't matter to Christians, and I don't think to Jews. But, my understanding is that it is a big thing with Muslims, where you need to bury or otherwise dispose of the body within a couple of days, under the precepts of their religion. This is usually done by burial, but may be at sea, since traditionally if you were at sea, it would take too long to get back to shore for a proper burial within the alloted time.
So, if OBL's body was not buried, but brought back to the States, it could be seen as a deliberate affront against Muslims world wide, esp. after appearing to initially deliberately respect their religion at the time of his death.
Which is why I don't believe that either the Secretary of
State, nor the President, are so ignorant and oblivious that they could have allowed it to happen.
"It's ultimately a rumor, but I must believe it is correct. There is no way the Obama administration and the CIA dump an important piece of evidence in the ocean. If this report is correct, I think more highly of Obama."
important piece of evidence of what, exactly?
Who, given they said they buried the body at sea, could they possibly show "important piece of evidence" to?
Or, even if they did as the Stratfor boys speculate, does one think they haven't destroyed they body once whomever needed to see it saw it?
Or is it at Area 51?
Go to the article and you find that the story is based on a guy making unsupported conjectures. Jesus Christ that's weak.
So, are Obama and the DNC now dining on choice cuts of UBL to rev themselves up for re-election? Are they selling bits and pieces as relics? Have they made an offer to Dublin to have them stand in for St. O'Toole's relics?
Does anyone believe anything the U.S. says anymore? Given the flotilla of lies that carried us into an illegal war of aggression against Iraq, and given our mission creep into numerous other countries in the region, isn't it obvious we're just doing whatever the fuck we want--including killing whomever we want--and justifying it after the fact with glib and transparent doublespeak?
"I wouldn't have posted if it hadn't been so conspicuously proclaimed on Drudge."
** ** **
Yes, that gives it credibility.
Breitbart, Limbaugh and Drudge, oh my!
Bruce if Bin Laden is dead there is no benefit to bringing his body to the US. If he is not dead ( then bringing to the US for interogation followed by a summary execution) then staging a show would make sense. The guy is dead, any other conclusion is nut job fantasy. I can't stand Obama but even a blind squirl finds a nut and the this is the
one and probably the only time he got something right. I only hope before he went to hell Bin Laden realized his express ride to hell was courtesy of Seal Team Six.
it will not be believed
That's never stopped him before.
There are 3 kinds of American voters:
1) The evil- this is the level of most Democrat leaders, hate-filled congenital liars, Alinsky intellectual devils - Pelosi, Reid, Plouffe, Axelrod
2) The middle - those who fall in line because of low intelligence, mostly inculcated by the American Public School System. In otherwords, most Democrats and the very tired conservatives who are spineless and just too tired to stand up to the pussy whipping Nancy Pelosi and Rachel Maddow
3) The Principaled - These can actually be on either side of the political spectrum, yes including liberals that do not lie (a small number, I know)
Armstrong and Getty say bin Laden was dressed in a clown suit and shot from a cannon.
"Does anyone believe anything the U.S. says anymore?"
You see how you show your anti-American bias there, Cook. You know that all nations lie about these things, but you jump at a chance to attack the U.S..
Why do you hate us? Don't you know that in a lot of places you'd be in jail or dead for what you write here, and if not for the U.S. those places would be small, shivering and hard to find.
"illegal war of aggression against Iraq"
As opposed to those illegal wars of non aggression that used to be all the rage. What law was this again that was broken? If you can pay off the dictators, thugs and crooks that make a significant percentage of the UN to back your play, does that make it a legal war? How about the aggression part? Is that a subclause of the UN vote?
Interesting. About half an hour ago, I got a call from an old friend (grad of Yale Medical) who said he'd been told OBLs body was brought to Yale.
Not that I give real credence to it, but there you are.
"important piece of evidence of what, exactly?"
Oh, I don't know...maybe HOW HE FREAKING SURVIVED FOR TEN YEARS without our intelligence knowing where to find him?
Our intelligence said he had kidney problems. Was that true? If it was true, shouldn't we be oh I don't know CURIOUS if and where he was getting treatment? And what kind of treatment. Don't we want to track down the doctors and talk to them if can? And if it wasn't true, don't we want to know how good our information was and failure was?
There is no way the CIA let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean.
Our intelligence said he had kidney problems. Was that true? If it was true, shouldn't we be oh I don't know CURIOUS if and where he was getting treatment? And what kind of treatment.
My money says our intelligence knows and has known all about bin Laden and his alleged kidney problems for some time now.
They said they buried the body at sea.
"The body" could mean a lot of different things. I suspect they still have the evidence to examine if needed.
Bin Laden being buried at sea was meant to be respectful? I don't seem to recall anyone talking about how respectful it was. And it certainly wasn't seen as respectful outside the U.S - it was seen as precisely was it was, and what even we in the U.S. saw it as. A body dump.
So the question is, is this news good or bad in terms of international relations?
Of course it's bad. No matter what it was, it would be bad. No matter what we did with Bin Laden, it was going to be bad.
As a child growing up in the Vietnam Era, magazines like Argosy used to contain gritty pulp fiction about that war. Yes, I read lots of crap as a child. One recurring set piece in stories of Green Berets and other front line troops is that they would collect ears from dead enemies, or fingers, or toes, as trophies of their kills.
And of course, the shriveled, mummified penis of Ho Chi Minh was always displayed somewhere in their front line compound, nailed to a wall. Usually a female reporter visiting the troops would be seduced after being given a showing of the relic. Hey, I said it was pulp fiction!
I have not heard nor read of such a thing regarding the late unlamented Osama. But if there isn't a prayer rug, a head scarf, some prayer beads, or at least a few weapons from that compound floating around the SOG compound back in Afghanistan I will be amazed.
perhaps Mr Obama wanted to dress the corpse up and have him sit in the President's box at the next state of the union?
sarcasm off--
If they ever wanted to be believed, they could always run it through somebody known to be honest.
In this Administration? Who?
What?
Dare we hope they have video of doing a Sepoy Mutiny on him?
Burying him in a pigskin or blowing him from a gun*?
Hopefully, this is one where the troops disobeyed orders.
Andy R. said...
You're using made up rumors to attack Obama?
Why not, the Lefties do it to Conservatives all the time.
While we're making stuff up, can we get another post about how incandescent light bulbs have been banned?
Write Fred Upton, sweetie.
* Blown from guns - tie one hand of the body (living or dead) to one wheel of an artillery piece.
Tie the other hand to the other wheel.
Fire the artillery piece with only powder, no shell, spreading the remains over a field.
Invite birds and scavengers.
Eat.
Enjoy.
They brought him home and interred him in a glass air-conditioned mausoleum just like Lenin's and they have him in the White House basement.
Whenever he's feeling bad for himself or otherwise unhappy Obama takes the elevators down for a little time with his "old friend the murderer."
Why not? He deserves it.
Go to the article and you find that the story is based on a guy making unsupported conjectures. Jesus Christ that's weak.
Well yeah. Just like most the MSM stories we get. I must say its fun watching liberals on other blogs apply critical standards to vet this story. No sense of irony.
Hey, maybe Statfor has a memo from an unimpeachable source.
illegal war of aggression against Iraq
Wrong again. Not illegal. Not a war of agression.
You can always spot libtard bs by the number of adjectives arguing assertion.
"While we're making stuff up, can we get another post about how incandescent light bulbs have been banned?"
Oh, good grief. You really get your jollies making semantic arguments, don't you?
"Hey, maybe Stratfor has a memo from an unimpeachable source."
Ah, yes. What's the frequency, Kenneth?
OK, maybe I'm dusting off the tin-foil hat, but I smell a rope-a-dope. My guess is that this rumor was leaked to let it percolate a bit so the administration can eventually disprove it with the so-far elusive photos of the burial a bit closer to the election.
I have always maintained that the dead Osama photos will be released in response to a FOIA request that will be "finally" be adjudicated sometime around October 2012.
One live lying asshole lying about a dead lying asshole.
See. Some people believe it.
I don't care what happened to bin Laden. And it doesn't matter what we say, because the radicals want strife and will us any excuse for it.
And as to an apology; you apologize for things you regret. I don't see how that would apply here (assuming, for the sake of argument, the story is true).
"He's dead, Jim."
Too bad he isn't inside a can of bacon flavored dog food.
Too bad the Seals lost a stealth helicopter, which the pakistani's sold to China.
Drudge recognizes when he's stuck a rumor up on his blog, and when it's not true, it comes down FAST.
You wanted an editorial apology?
Note also that at least one of the leaked Stratfor emails was a forgery: the one where the CEO announced his resignation. Has Stratfor confirmed that these emails are genuine.
I have to question the legitimacy of the emails when I see someone refer in writing to Israel as "The Tribe".
They're talking about it on my morning news. Now they're talking about something McCain said. Now they're talking about yesterdays earthquakes (that most people slept through). Now they're talking about wind. And now traffic, and now it's a commercial.
I totally live-blogged the morning news for you exactly as it happened, without pausing!
"There is no way the CIA let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."
OK, so your assumption is, they didn't kill him.
I don't believe that, given the nature of the operation. But if it were true, then yes, they'd not "let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."
But there's no evidence they did that, is there? None of the surivors, now in Pakistani custody, have said bin Laden was hustled out of his compound alive. So, this is just speculation, informed by what? Conspiracy theories? Hollywood movies? Hope? A vain effort to validate a previous comment made months ago?
Funny.
"There is no way the CIA let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."
OK, so your assumption is, they didn't kill him.
I don't believe that, given the nature of the operation. But if it were true, then yes, they'd not "let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."
But there's no evidence they did that, is there? None of the surivors, now in Pakistani custody, have said bin Laden was hustled out of his compound alive. So, this is just speculation, informed by what? Conspiracy theories? Hollywood movies? Hope? A vain effort to validate a previous comment made months ago?
Funny.
Once again Althouse was pawned by her beloved conservative media.
Let's move on, shall we ...
Ooooh. LOVE the auto-double comment post feature.
It's kinda like a double-tap, 'cept no one gets hurt, lol!
"While we're making stuff up, can we get another post about how incandescent light bulbs have been banned?"
Indeed!
shiloh said...
"Once again Althouse was pawned by her beloved conservative media."
Hmmm, nice try, but no.
The fault, dear shilo, is not in our conservative media,
But in Ann, that she read without understanding.
So let's recap, shall we:
Althouse and her loverboy Limbaugh are having bad weeks lol.
Many of the leaked Stratfor emails have a frat boy tone--knowing stuff that only the real man insiders know. They are showing each other how big their dicks are.
Could this be true? Sure. But considering the source I strongly doubt it.
This is why Althouse is still on mickey mouse blogger.com ie it's a mickey mouse conservative blog which is somewhat amusing, by default.
Plus Althouse is too cheap to move. :-P
Why on earth would the CIA bring that bag of camel manure back to the US? What purpose would it serve, especially being kept secret? What, they wanted to do an autopsy to see if the bullets to the head really killed him?
No, dumping at sea is much more plausible. And justifiable.
I honestly dont understand why they just did leave the corpse there with half his head shot off--dragging his (dead) sorry ass out and putting in an aircraft jeopardized the entire seal team--It would be abundantly clear from paki media that he was dead--
Well, let's at least give Althouse credit :D for not deleting this entire thread ...
yet.
Many folk having already saved it, notwithstanding.
The truth is out there ...
Just what, precisely Shilo, are you yammering about? Try to make a point son. You are failing miserably.
@RogerJ probably so no one could do any staging of the body to make our Seals look like the Gainsborough serial killer or something.
Roger J. you seem upset and thanx for caring. :)
They also wanted to do post-mortem autopsy stuff on the body. Couldn't leave it behind.
Not upset at all Shilo--sorry to disabuse you. I rather enjoy your mindless and disjointed snark.
Phx--good point re staging.
"Or is it at Area 51?"
Awesome - reminds of the old conspiracy altnet days. Maybe the Greys are maintaining him in a stasis field....
I do remember how a committed Lefty on another site was insisting that OBL was in a freezer on Bagram Airfield, awaiting GWB's revelation of the kill, in time to secure the 2004 election...when I pointed out that I was the XO of BAF at the time, he just waived me off "oh, you wouldn't know where they put him". Seems people always have (or had)some sort of really goofy ideas about the late OBL.
Roger J., your disjointed rationalizations/reasons notwithstanding, as long as your payin' attention to my every word. :)
take care
if it werent for conspiracy theories the internet wouldnt exist. The medium apparently appeals mostly to those on the third standard deviation on the right and on the left.
The leak also reveals democrat 2008 election crimes.
Shilo--lol
Roger where did you get so good-spirited?
Reader's fault. Drudge's fault. That was a close one. You were almost wr, wro..., wr..., er, mistaken.
phx--beautiful day in Memphis--raises ones spirits--the downside of today is I am taking a break from doing my taxes, and need some comic relief :)
"Roger where did you get so good-spirited?"
There are a few good-spirited conservatives at Althouse ~ part of it's appeal! :)
Although the mean spirited, die hard cons can be quite amusing!
Shilo--as can die hard liberals--it rather depends on which side of the spectrum they are noted. Idiocy is an equal opportunity employer from both the left and the right. When you bend the spectrum back, I submit you will find there isnt a dimes worth of difference between the left and the right.
"OK, so your assumption is, they didn't kill him."
Huh? How do you get that? My assumption is that it is more likely that the government told a "white lie" than it is that the CIA completely Gomer Pyled the investigation.
It would be one thing if the government conducted a full investigation on the corpse, tissue by tissue, organ by organ, and THEN dumped the body in the ocean. That I could buy. To believe that the government hastily dumped the body in the ocean a mere hours after obtaining it? That would be so foolish that I cannot accept it.
The US government spent billions and billions of dollars and ten years tracking down Bin Laden. I am supposed to accept without skepticism the notion that they pitched the body without first squeezing every last bit of evidence and intel out of it?
Or hey, maybe the official story is correct. Maybe the CIA treated the body with less care and deliberation than the LA coroner is treating Andrew Breitbart's body.
It's all theater all the time with this administration. Even the terrorists realize that now.
"I submit you will find there isn't a dimes worth of difference between the left and the right."
Indeed, and don't tell anyone Clinton was slightly more conservative than Nixon. Reagan, not being able to pass muster in today's Rep party notwithstanding.
The yin and yang of politics.
I am not sure exactly what evidence can be extracted from a corpse--now his personal computer and belongings are another story altogether.
"I am not sure exactly what evidence can be extracted from a corpse--now his personal computer and belongings are another story altogether."
Here is just a tip of the iceberg:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/224981.php
I personally think they didn't kill him. OBL's brain is a bigger intelligence haul than anything they could get from a hard drive. I'm guessing he's in a drugged haze in some basement in Diego Garcia. He'll be buried at sea once we're done with him.
"Diego Garcia"
Diego Garcia is a longgg way from anywhere. The Saratoga was in the Indian Ocean for about a month in 1985 until Khadafi's line of death nonsense brought us back to the Med. Thanx Muammar! :) I digress.
This just in. New Bin Laden video released by Al Jazeera. In the tape Bin Laden appears in a tent with an AK47 leaning behind him, statesmanlike monotone throughout he taunts the United States present and past administrations and observes what he calls the obvious destruction of the United States which will continuine apace God willing.
In the tape Bin Laden cites current events in Middle East and analysts are studying the tape for editing to pin down the date of production. One CIA analyst who would not be identified said, "Yeah well, those jumpy bits where he's talking about Hilary Clinton keeping her little dick out of Syria are especially interesting because they're all jumpy and they look like it was pieced together word for word. As soon as we get someone in here who knows what language they're talking we'll get a better handle on this."
Problem is, is that no believes anything Urkel says or does. Even if it's true, the messenger killed his own credibility not only with his own citizens, but set it up that way when he dithered on his birth certificate nonsense for so long. Not to mention that this master of transparency has done nothing but hide his true intentions for this country. Oh wait.
Andy R(etard) said...
While we're making stuff up, can we get another post about how incandescent light bulbs have been banned?
Why? Need to refit the one that burned out in your head?
I'm sorry I'm late to the party, but I saw one thing that needed comment on:
"Our intelligence said he had kidney problems. Was that true? If it was true, shouldn't we be oh I don't know CURIOUS if and where he was getting treatment? And what kind of treatment. Don't we want to track down the doctors and talk to them if can? And if it wasn't true, don't we want to know how good our information was and failure was?"
No, the kidney issue was not true. To wit:
http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_on_dialysis.html
"Indian Muslims, Internet gurus, television anchors, and at least one prime minister have said that [Osama] bin Laden has kidney trouble.
So where is the evidence? In short, there is no evidence, just a lot of chatter.
There is only one presumably well-informed source who has gone on the record to say that bin Laden was on dialysis: Pakistani Prime Minister Pervez Musharraf. And he later changed his mind.
At first, Gen. Pervez Musharraf seemed to strongly endorse the notion, in January 2002. "I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a patient, he is a kidney patient," he told CNN. Gen. Musharraf added, "Pakistan knew bin Laden took two dialysis machines into Afghanistan. One was specifically for his own personal use."
Over the next few years, bin Laden would appear alive and well in a string of audio and video tapes. In December 2004, when Gen. Musharraf again sat down with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, he all but reversed himself.
In fact, there is a mountain of evidence that bin Laden is not on dialysis.
No medical report has been produced that shows bin Laden is on dialysis. No reporter who has actually met bin Laden has seen the archterrorist hooked up to a dialysis machine or heard him talk about it. Robert Fisk, the only Western journalist to interview bin Laden three times, makes no mention of dialysis.
Peter Bergen led a CNN team into Afghanistan to interview bin Laden in 1997. Bin Laden appeared healthy and strong; neither the reporters nor bin Laden mentioned dialysis or kidney trouble.
Even bin Laden's longtime associates dispute the kidney ailment meme. Saudi newspaper editor Khaled Batarfi has known bin Laden for two decades, ever since the two were neighbors in the Saudi port city of Jeddah. He told the Sunday Tasmanian, an Australian newspaper, that bin Laden "does not suffer from kidney disease...
...Dr. Amer Aziz, a British citizen born in Pakistan, was interrogated by eight CIA and FBI agents, as well as by Pakistani intelligence officers. Strongly sympathetic to radical Islam, Aziz had treated bin Laden for years. He reportedly admitted to visiting bin Laden after the September 11 attacks. Upon his release, he talked freely to Paul Haven of the Associated Press in November 2002. The doctor said he had given bin Laden a "complete physical" in 1999 and treated him for back injuries after bin Laden was thrown from a horse. "His kidneys were fine," the doctor told Mr. Haven. He said "If you're on dialysis, you have a special look. I didn't see any of that," and added that bin Laden "was walking. He was healthy." Aziz was emphatic: "I did not see any evidence of kidney disease; I didn't see any evidence of dialysis."
Sorry for the long excerpt, but the point is made: The entire Bin Laden on Dialysis thing was just one of those internet rumors.
And here's the original column:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/jan/3/20060103-093215-2153r/
Aack. The original post got caught up in the spam filter, so my last comment has no context now. Sorry. It's nothing more than a post refuting the myth of Bin Laden needing dialysis, that's all.
Fake, but accurate? It's not just for progressives!
D.D. Driver:
"It would be one thing if the government conducted a full investigation on the corpse, tissue by tissue, organ by organ, and THEN dumped the body in the ocean."
What makes you think they didn't? You don't need a "government" to conduct a post mortem, and I do not doubt that there was an examiner with every necessary tool in hand, virtually waiting on the tarmac for delivery of the corpse. They'd have certainly been prepared to do immediate DNA testing, and they could easily have preserved any, if not all, organs and tissues of interest while technically giving the body a maritime send off.
We could easily be looking at both/and, not either/or: one body feeding the fishes, and one body on ice in a secure location.
In which case, it could be not so fake, and accurate.
I believe it. Now prove me wrong. Can't do it can you?
Whether the report is true or not, radical mullahs could say it's true and whip up rioting.
"We could easily be looking at both/and, not either/or: one body feeding the fishes, and one body on ice in a secure location."
This is certainly possible. Perhaps the military harvested all the organs, preserved his head, thoroughly scanned his body for shrapnel, gathered some more tissue and bone samples, and then tossed whatever was left in the ocean. That's possible.
But if you are going through that much effort to issue a misleading account of what happened, isn't it simply easier to tell a white lie?
phx said...
One live lying asshole lying about a dead lying asshole.
See. Some people believe it.
Not at all.
Whether alive or dead it isn't important enough to waste time over.
And since, when confronted with a myriad of different scenarios, the simplest explanation is usually the truth.
He is an ex terrorist. He is no more. He has joined the choir invisible.
he ain't pinen for the fjiords.
He is sooo, like, last season.
"It would be one thing if the government conducted a full investigation on the corpse, tissue by tissue, organ by organ, and THEN dumped the body in the ocean. That I could buy. To believe that the government hastily dumped the body in the ocean a mere hours after obtaining it? That would be so foolish that I cannot accept it."
...tissue by tissue,organ by organ...
Let me guess, you deal with OCD issues, right?
What intelligence could we gather from his spleen?
Or his lungs? O
Or his brain?
Did it have a USB port?
Dude. Let it go.
He's dead, thank God (and Seal Team VI).
Some sea creatures dined well, and now all that's left of him are the diminishing vestiges of a failed terrorist organization and it's damage.
This tale is so unlikely to be true. The "value" of having his body is near zero while the downside PR risk of creating a martyr is catastrophic.
The burial at sea was perfect. Yes, even the CIA can get it right once in a while.
"What intelligence could we gather from his spleen?"
Not sure. I'm not claiming to be a doctor. Are you?
The spleen is a red herring. Maybe the spleen is significant, maybe not. Are you qualified to say there is no possible way that any organ or tissue would have any investigatory value?
The guy evaded US capture for 10 years. I'd want to know everything about him from reconstructing his diet to his exercise regime. And you bet I would want to look at every organ, and see what diseases he may have had while he was on the lam. Find out whether he sought treatment. Try to determine where.
Hey, do we want to know if his various organs show signs of radiation exposure? Can we figure out what isotope? Might that same isotope be used to create a dirty bomb? Do his organs show signs of being exposed to toxins or chemicals that could be weaponized?
This is just low-hanging fruit that I can think of off the top of my head. I would bet the CIA has a lot of other interesting questions that they could answer...
If his body was brought back here, I'm sure he received a respectful burial in a hog lot somewhere.
This tale is so unlikely to be true. The "value" of having his body is near zero while the downside PR risk of creating a martyr is catastrophic.
The burial at sea was perfect. Yes, even the CIA can get it right once in a while.
Really? I thought the really unlikely story was that we spent ten years hunting this guy, killed him one night and a few hours later he's buried at sea. No photos released, no proof at all.
It's like Bush announcing in 2006 "Yeah, we found Saddam's WMDs in Baghdad last night, but they were so dangerous we disposed of them immediately. Sorry, no photos."
I'm not one much for conspiracy theories, but I tend to lean toward the theory that OBL was captured alive.
"The guy evaded US capture for 10 years. I'd want to know everything about him...."
Assuming they killed him and dumped him in the drink, as claimed, it may be that they were less interested in finding out what he could tell them than in making sure he couldn't spill any sensitive beans about past operations in which he cooperated with the CIA and American forces. Maybe he had stuff on people that those people didn't want got by anybody else.
After all, it's obvious our government doesn't really give a damn about extinguishing Al Qaeda or learning what their plans are. Hell, Al Qaeda doesn't pose any real threat to the American mainland, and there's probably not much left of them at this point.
Al Qaeda's value is entirely as an all-purpose boogeyman that can be used to justify any military budget increases, any military expenditures and weapons procurements, and, most important, any outrages against our Constitution and civil liberties that those in office may choose to inflict.
This is not about protecting us from an outside enemy; this is about exerting greater and greater internal control over the American people while projecting perpetual military force externally, in search of new resources to plunder.
"Or is it at Area 51?"
More likely, the head is in someone"s freezer in the USA and other body parts occupy various juju bags wherever.
Aw comeone guys, you really think our government gives a fig for just how Bin Laden is ACTUALLY buried?
How would anyone prove it wasn't buried at sea? How? Heck Obama could have mummified Bin Laden's head and stuck it on his fireplace mantel.
The buried at sea shtick was just a way to make everyone let go of using his body as a shrine.
No one in the USA gives a fig how that SOB was buried, if at all.
@Curious George
Absurd is thinking more than 2 people can keep a secret if they are both alive.
So your position is Seal team VI, after a black insertion into a semi-hostile country, killing or capturing the most wanted terrorist in the world, having their super secret stealth helicopter shot out from under them, fly back to their carrier base with said dead/captured terrorist, stash his corpse/person somewhere in the bowels of the ship, just happen to have a dead body for the ships doctors to examine(cause if you don't think he was examined I don't know what to say to you), then wrap the fake body up in a sheet and dump it overboard with no one, absolutely no one on the ship knowing? Seal team VI is good son, but only at one thing, going into the deep blue, killing whoever needs to be dead, and getting out without getting caught. This ain't a Mission Impossible episode.
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