Althouse: "It’s like asking a priest not to pray..."

January 27, 2012

"It’s like asking a priest not to pray..."

"... they have acquired skills and want to use them in real life."

85 comments:

cubanbob said...: He needs to be fired ASAP.; 1/27/12, 11:40 AM
Brian Brown said...: Rogers offered funding for students who helped with ALICE through another organization he controls called the Center on Wisconsin Strategy (COWS). COWS was founded in 1992 and is based at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, in the Social Science Building. On its website, COWS describes itself as “a nonprofit think-and-do tank that promotes “high road” solutions to social problems.”

Why is he allowed to run a liberal activist group on the campus of a state university?; 1/27/12, 11:45 AM
edutcher said...: Taking advantage of gullible students is analogous to prayer?

Well, yeah.

It's about the only prayer the Lefties have.; 1/27/12, 11:47 AM
rcommal said...: Interesting simile.; 1/27/12, 11:48 AM
ic said...: He wants to make sure the washed brains are thoroughly rinsed before he sent them out to his customers. Impressive work ethics.; 1/27/12, 11:48 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Please read about The Wisconsin Idea before making strong statements about what should and shouldn't be done at this specific university.; 1/27/12, 11:48 AM
Jaske said...: Lord of the Files..; 1/27/12, 11:48 AM
traditionalguy said...: Jezebel supported the priests of Baal until a feisty Zionist came along one day.

Leave them alone. Their day is coming.; 1/27/12, 11:50 AM
Jaske said...: Ann assumes that "never be content until the beneficent influence of the university reaches every family in the state." is not problematic.; 1/27/12, 11:53 AM
rcommal said...: The Wisconsin Idea involves/includes training a priesthood: interesting way of looking at it.; 1/27/12, 11:55 AM
Brian Brown said...: Ann Althouse said...
Please read about The Wisconsin Idea before making strong statements about what should and shouldn't be done at this specific university.

Oh great.

So all liberal ideas are "public good" therefore they should be state funded.

You realize there is zero difference between that and union due from public sector workers being shoveled to Democrats who can pay public sector union workers more money, right?; 1/27/12, 11:57 AM
rcommal said...: Where did Althouse express whether she does or does not see that phrase as problematic? Because I'm not seeing it, Jake. Surely we haven't gotten to the point such that the mere posting of a link to provide broader context automatically implies taking a stance either way on particular topic. Have we?; 1/27/12, 11:58 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Ann assumes that "never be content until the beneficent influence of the university reaches every family in the state." is not problematic."

You are the one making an assumption.

What I am saying is that you need to understand what the entire institution is before you make a judgment about the performance of an individual within that institution.; 1/27/12, 11:59 AM
Wince said...: "It’s like asking a priest not to pray..."

That should be "prey". Fixed.; 1/27/12, 11:59 AM
MadisonMan said...: It's a little odd to do it before grades have been posted. What was the rush?

Depending on how the Professor acts in class, it's reasonable to think a student might feel coerced.; 1/27/12, 12:04 PM
Jaske said...: I assumed from your link, it was the main point of the article. Your post isn't about the institution, it's about one gear of it. It is possible to have a fantastic gearbox made awful with a bad cog.; 1/27/12, 12:08 PM
shiloh said...: "Please read"

Althouse asking her conservative flock to actually read the article she posted. ;) Surely a bridge too far.

ok, even if they had read it "they" would just be confused.

Again, not everything Althouse posts is anti-liberal/Obama and pro mittens, most but not all lol. Indeed, some of her posts actually are asking her readers to think!

Gasp!; 1/27/12, 12:11 PM
cubanbob said...: AA does it not seem a bit unsettlingly that the professor asks the students before the grades are posted? Would you ask the same from your students?; 1/27/12, 12:12 PM
edutcher said...: shiloh said...

"Please read"

Althouse asking her conservative flock to actually read the article she posted.

OTOH, shiloh just makes up his drivel as he goes along, lolling himself silly.; 1/27/12, 12:22 PM
raf said...: Let's grant that the final grades will not be affected; the prof has documented what those will be and will be able to prove they were not changed by a student's response. It is still reasonable to believe that his reason for making the request (presenting the opportunity) before posting grades is that he assumes (knows?) that many students will fear that their grade might be affected and that if he waited, his response rate would be very low.

Just savvy marketing on his part, y'see.; 1/27/12, 12:22 PM
ricpic said...: The Cornell professors who are constantly being interviewed on our local radio station here in Ithaca about every conceivable public policy issue can barely bring themselves to spit out the word Republican.; 1/27/12, 12:26 PM
Rusty said...: So the bottom line is to help this guy use their parents money to pass legislation to steal more of their parents money.
That about sum it up?; 1/27/12, 12:28 PM
John said...: This is unsurprising. The fact is that liberals entire existences revolve around politics. And they turn every organization they are associated with into a tool for advancing their ideology. A law school's function in the liberal view is not to produce competent lawyers. But it is to produce better trained advocates for liberals causes. This kind of thinking permeates liberal involvement in all facets of society. Let liberals take over a child's little league baseball program and it will cease to be about playing baseball and become about increasing social awareness and self esteem in the players. This is what they do. The politics is the personal.; 1/27/12, 12:29 PM
Sofa King said...: This is craven repression and a shocking violation of free speech rights.; 1/27/12, 12:39 PM
shiloh said...: "The fact is that liberals entire existences revolve around politics."

This blog being heavily conservative would refute that, plus conservative talk radio being almost entirely pro Republican, as conservatives here and elsewhere brag about Limbo et al con talk radio host's ratings and boast about fixednoise cable news tv ratings.

Oops!

Indeed, liberals would rather watch AI ie be entertained!

take care; 1/27/12, 12:39 PM
FleetUSA said...: I think the Professor was ethically wrong in asking for volunteers for his project before grades were posted. It almost sounds like bribery.; 1/27/12, 12:41 PM
shiloh said...: talk radio, not conservative talk radio which is redundant, but accurate. ;); 1/27/12, 12:43 PM
John said...: "This blog being heavily conservative would refute that, plus conservative talk radio being almost entirely pro Republican"

No it would only show that conservatives are sometimes interested in politics too. It would say nothing about the interests of liberals and would in no way mean that conservatives are only interested in politics.

In contrast the long record of liberals subverting every single institution they have ever held sway over into politicized entities (of which this post is just one more example) says a lot about how liberals' entire existence revolves around politics.; 1/27/12, 12:43 PM
John said...: alk radio, not conservative talk radio which is redundant, but accurate. ;)

Last I looked NPR was almost entirely talk and completely leftist. And it even gets tax money. At least right wing radio pays for itself.; 1/27/12, 12:44 PM
Chip S. said...: I don't see how you can seriously claim that the bromides constituting the "Wisconsin idea" have anything to do with this:

The goal of ALICE is “identifying, supporting and assisting 10,000 progressive local elected officials.” …

This project involves pure partisan political proselytizing ationwide. It has nothing whatsoever to do with research into public-policy issues in Wisconsin.; 1/27/12, 12:52 PM
shiloh said...: John is obviously confused, as I was replying to:

The fact is that liberals entire existences revolve around politics.

ie conservative talk radio ratings are much higher than "supposed" imaginary of not in John's mind liberal talk radio. btw, NPR is mostly news, not talk radio.

Again, Althouse asking her conservative flock to read is a bridge too far!

btw, I listen to Dan Patrick, Jim Rome, and music in the car ie liberals like to be entertained!

John, take care; 1/27/12, 12:55 PM
C R Krieger said...: I guess the Germans who came to Wisconsin and gave us the Wisconsin Idea, after the Revoution of '48, were not the same as the ones who stayed behind and gave us Life Unworthy of Life. That is the good news.

I would feel more comfortable if the political process was non-partisan, as in Nebraska, although I am not sure how that works. In the city in which I reside it means the Democratic Machine pretty much runs the place. That said, we do have one registered Republican on the City Council. He fleeted up from the School Committee.

Regards — Cliff

Lost in Lowell; 1/27/12, 12:58 PM
John said...: "ie conservative talk radio ratings are much higher than "supposed" imaginary of not in John's mind liberal talk radio. btw, NPR is mostly news, not talk radio."

So listening to talk radio, as opposed to say using your official position for law students to work for a political causes, shows what exactly? Yes conservatives are interesting in politics too. Once again that says nothing about liberals and their penchant to turn any institution they hold sway over into political instruments.

Bloody Norah Shiloh, I know liberals tend to have poor logic and debating skills but this is pathetic.

I suppose the idea that anyone who doesn't agree with you would have any platform whatsoever upsets you as a liberal so much, you just can't think straight about the issue. Unsurprising.; 1/27/12, 12:59 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @shiloh,

NPR is mostly news, not talk radio.

No, shiloh, only Morning Edition, All Things Considered, and graveyard shift BBC World are news shows. The rest of the schedule is filled with local/syndicated squish liberal talk radio.

Do you ever listen to NPR?; 1/27/12, 1:00 PM
John said...: It is hysterical how narrow minded and generally ignorant liberals are. Every conservative must listen to the evil talk radio and the dreaded Fox News. Liberals have a bogeyman. If there wasn't, they might have to admit that the other side has reasonable points. And that would puncture the air of smugness around them.; 1/27/12, 1:01 PM
John said...: No, shiloh, only Morning Edition, All Things Considered,

And calling those things "news" is a pretty broad interpretation of news. Government propaganda would be a better description.; 1/27/12, 1:02 PM
DADvocate said...: We've been saying for a long time that leftism is a religion.; 1/27/12, 1:09 PM
shiloh said...: John, fact check the ratings of NPR and conservative talk radio and get back to me little buddy.

Also, fact check the ratings of fixednoise vs. MSNBC.

or keep "deflecting" as you wish.; 1/27/12, 1:11 PM
DADvocate said...: you need to understand what the entire institution is before you make a judgment about the performance of an individual within that institution.

It gives context, but makes little difference in to my opinion. I don't agree with the Wisconsin Idea as practiced. Indeed, the Wisconsin Idea seems to invite abuse of taxpayers money to work for one side and against another. Taxpayers should be paying for political activities by professors.; 1/27/12, 1:19 PM
TMink said...: Colleges are the churches for the progressives. Well, if not the churches, at least the seminaries!

I appreciate that the writes understands that on a certain level. I do not think he realizes just what he said, but what he said was important.

And after graduating from seminary, the clergy want to preach and convert. That is just natural.

Trey; 1/27/12, 1:20 PM
shiloh said...: "Do you ever listen to NPR?"

The local NPR station, plays classical music, so yes, rarely.

Again, as a liberal I don't listen to radio at home like Limbaugh's et al many millions of conservative couch potatoes.; 1/27/12, 1:29 PM
John said...: Shilo,

So the ratings of various news organizations means what exactly? That doesn't even make any sense.

This is why I have pretty much given up on discussing politics with most liberals. When you have a group of people who do not understand basic logic and argument and live in a completely insular world where they are never expected to have such understanding and in fact are rewarded for not having it, you cannot have a productive discussion with them. What exactly is the response to "faux news"? There isn't one. I would be better off discussing things with my retriever.; 1/27/12, 1:33 PM
shiloh said...: btw, Althouse likes to brag re: her blog and other (((conservative))) blogs "always" being in the top 10/20 of blogosphere "hits".

A+B=C

>

As John keeps deflecting, now to why he deosn't like to chat w/liberals yada yada yada.

Indeed, John has the freedom to deflect until the cows come home as I destroyed his illogical statement re: liberals.

But liberals do like to protest more than conservatives, because hey, conservatives are conservative.:D Whereas liberals like to exercise their constitutional rights ie patriotic.

Ok, totally on topic as "we" now return you to John defelcting.; 1/27/12, 1:42 PM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: The Wisconsin Idea was created by the state's progressives to do away with monopolies, trusts, high costs of living, and predatory wealth, which they saw as the problem that must be solved or else "no advancement of human welfare or progress can take place."

Well, "predatory wealth" is the problem, is it? Does this apply to predatory union wealth extracted from the poor workers in order to build powerful political movements? Yeah, didn't think so.

Wisconsin should put the Idea in a retirement home along with the other feeble old progressive attempts to pervert democracy.; 1/27/12, 1:57 PM
John said...: Good God you are stupid Shiloh.; 1/27/12, 1:59 PM
shiloh said...: "Good God you are stupid Shiloh."

A final "personal attack" childish deflection from John who is admitting defeat.

Indeed, Althouse conservatives get pithy and personal when they have lost the argument ...; 1/27/12, 2:03 PM
Chip S. said...: There's never a thread cop around when you really need one.; 1/27/12, 2:15 PM
edutcher said...: shiloh said...

But liberals do like to protest more than conservatives, because hey, conservatives are conservative.:D Whereas liberals like to exercise their constitutional rights ie patriotic.

Protest is patriotic. Wow!

Must have taken the thinkers at Kos all day to come up with that little riff.

Conservatives don't regard protest as the only way to exercise their Constitutional rights, in fact protest, as practiced by the Tea Parties, is the method of last resort. They go to work, start businesses, vote, marry, raise their families, and love their country.

It's just that Leftists like to categorize such actions as whining, deflecting (which shiloh can't seem to spell), or being uncivil, homophobic, sexist or raaacisst.

Actually, what Leftists like to do is to destroy things. They're much better at that than creating them. That's why they have to lie so much.; 1/27/12, 2:19 PM
shiloh said...: edutcher babbled ...

"Must have taken the thinkers at Kos all day to come up with that little riff."

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”

“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

take care little buddy :); 1/27/12, 2:24 PM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: Let's please leave the urban myth that Jefferson said "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism" ever. He didn't. And besides, Shiloh you don't believe that anyway. Leftists went ape-shit crazy on the Tea Parties calling them all kinds of vile things, among which was the obverse of your little lie: Unpatriotic.

So how can someone expressing the purest form of patriotism be unpatriotic?; 1/27/12, 2:42 PM
edutcher said...: He said dissent, not protest.

Conservatives dissent all the time from the Lefty canon. shiloh calls it whining and deflecting.

He needs to pick his quotes more carefully next time.

He might even win one.

Chip S. said...

There's never a thread cop around when you really need one.

Don't worry. He'll say something a little too nasty and Ann will bitch slap him once more and he'll go running back to hide at Kos for another couple of years.; 1/27/12, 2:44 PM
shiloh said...: Althouse

Law & Contemporary Problems: Public Law & Private Power. aside. Maybe it would be helpful if you gave the conservatives at this site a refresher course on American history and the Founding Fathers ...

or not!

>

As Althouse conservatives are once again amazed as edutcher performs his turning into a pretzel magic act!; 1/27/12, 2:49 PM
shiloh said...: Again, Althouse has only replied to me a few times, which is very wise and only frequent Daily Kos every now and then as I've made about 3/4 comments the last three years. Kos' liberal sarcasm compares favorably w/Althouse's attempted conservative sarcasm ~ go figure!

It's much more entertaining visiting a site of true conservative believers. Entertainment being the key!

>

We now return you to edutcher's babbling and pretzel logic.; 1/27/12, 2:56 PM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: Leave it to a liberal to confuse Howard Zinn with Thomas Jefferson.; 1/27/12, 3:03 PM
edutcher said...: shiloh said...

Again, Althouse has only replied to me a few times, which is very wise

And shot him down each time.

The "very wise" was on his part that he didn't give her any backtalk.

Some months ago, she had enough of him and let him have it and little shiloh was unseen here until about a month ago.

PS The Jefferson Foundation at Monticello can find no record of Tom saying anything about dissent being the highest form of patriotism.; 1/27/12, 3:07 PM
DADvocate said...: as a liberal I don't listen to radio at home like Limbaugh's et al many millions of conservative couch potatoes.

What exactly is the difference in the way you listen to Limbaugh and the way many millions of conservative couch potatoes listen to Limbaugh? Do you only listen when not at home? Or, when you're at home do you listen n a different manner, such as hanging from gravity boots?

Nice little strawman attack.; 1/27/12, 3:08 PM
shiloh said...: DADvocate knows how to deflect as well as the argument is #s, not human behavior ie my accurate description of Limbaugh lemmings er ditto heads.; 1/27/12, 3:16 PM
Michael Haz said...: I'd bet the 'diverse' faculty at the University of Wisconsin School of Law includes <5 openly conservative professors. If that many.; 1/27/12, 3:27 PM
Michael said...: shiloh, litle bud, Jefferson did not write what you think he wrote. Check it out and thanks for trying so hard to seem smart. cheerio; 1/27/12, 3:35 PM
DADvocate said...: the argument is #s, not human behavior ie my accurate description of Limbaugh lemmings er ditto heads.

No. I argue about whatever I want to argue about, not something defined by a lying liberal claiming to make accurate descriptions and refusing to divulge the manner in which he listens to Limbaugh.; 1/27/12, 3:42 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: "It’s like asking a priest not to pray..."

Well.. dont be so sure.. its not incontrovertible.. you cannot say that with certitude.; 1/27/12, 3:45 PM
shiloh said...: DADvocate, indeed you are free to deflect to anything you want, much like edutcher, John et al conservatives at Althouse.

take care; 1/27/12, 3:49 PM
David said...: Don't fire him.

Brown nosing and sucking up are valuable life skills.; 1/27/12, 4:45 PM
Brian Brown said...: shiloh said...
"Please read"

Althouse asking her conservative flock to actually read the article she posted.

Except that is not what she asked.

As clearly indicated by her post. Are you that dumb or just being silly, troll?; 1/27/12, 5:05 PM
David said...: I don't see the problem with this. The students are not required to participate. They have an option. The professor has an organization that promotes ideas he agrees with. So what? That's what professors do. To me, the question of lack of political diversity at places like Wisconsin is important, but I don't think you should deal with it by shutting down liberal groups.

As to the grades not being out yet, I grant him a presumption of integrity. Plus if he wants to grade based on conformity of thought, he always has that opportunity, regardless of this offer.

The priest analogy made me want to grasp for pedophilia snark, but I resisted the temptation.; 1/27/12, 5:21 PM
DADvocate said...: take care

I'll take anything and everything, and then some.

;); 1/27/12, 5:27 PM
DADvocate said...: I don't see the problem with this.

The problem is that he is apparently using university resources, money and performing at least some of these activities during university time. Resources and time paid for by the taxpayers. Political activities should be on his own time and his own dime and should not imply being an official activity of the university. Plus, students should not be made to feel a need to satisfy a professor's needs outside the classroom. Were this a private university matters would be different.; 1/27/12, 5:34 PM
Craig said...: Liberals invest their social capital in education and expect a return on that investment.; 1/27/12, 5:42 PM
rcocean said...: This should bring up the questions:

"What is Education?" and "Education for what"?; 1/27/12, 5:52 PM
Fen said...: "The Wisconsin Idea was created by the state's progressives - "

I. Guidance for UW Employees

1. What is political campaign activity?

Political campaign activity includes not only solicitation of campaign contributions, service in furtherance of candidates, political parties and political action committees, and advocating a particular position on a referendum, but also promoting action on issues which have become highly identified as dividing issues between the candidates. Further, comments regarding the specific actions, positions, or records of a particular candidate may be perceived as support or endorsement by the institution of a particular candidate or political party.

There are other “political” activities that might not fall within the scope of political campaign activities as discussed in this guidance. For example, advocating for governmental action or legislative change, at a local, state or federal level, may be political although not related to a political campaign. While this guidance does not cover those activities in detail, because of restrictions on state lobbying and personal use of state resources, individual employees should not use state work time or state resources to engage in political activities unless expressly designated with this responsibility on behalf of the institution."

http://www.wisconsin.edu/govrel/camprule.htm; 1/27/12, 5:59 PM
Fen said...: As to the grades not being out yet, I grant him a presumption of integrity.

On what basis? We already have proof that admission staff circular file apps that have "Ayn Rand" listed as fav books.; 1/27/12, 6:02 PM
Craig said...: Chicago's Hull House turned out its lights and locked its doors today. Couldn't pay its own bills.; 1/27/12, 6:26 PM
Phil 314 said...: they have acquired skills and want to use them in real life.”

So is the "acquired skill" liberal advocacy?; 1/27/12, 7:05 PM
Rusty said...: Indeed, Althouse conservatives get pithy and personal when they have lost the argument ...

Dude. You haven't given one.; 1/27/12, 7:36 PM
Synova said...: “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”

“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

Yeah... gotcha.

That's why the left is so into bigger government and having government run their health care, their schools, provide housing and solve all of their problems.

The Tea Party is "leave me alone."

The OWS movement is "government needs to save us from nasty job creating businesses." Or even more precious, "It's not Obama's fault because he's just so powerless."

Who exactly is resisting government?

Other than anti-war protests (which utterly disappeared as soon as a Democrat was in office) what do liberals EVER demonstrate against government about? ALL progressive demonstrations are demands that government do something for them that wasn't done before.; 1/27/12, 7:38 PM
Synova said...: "DADvocate, indeed you are free to deflect to anything you want, much like edutcher, John et al conservatives at Althouse."

End of the comments and Shiloh is still going on about "deflecting" the argument?

This is so funny, actually... John made a completely unsupported assertion: "The fact is that liberals entire existences revolve around politics. And they turn every organization they are associated with into a tool for advancing their ideology."

Rather than attack this weak and unsupported assertion (it may be true, but it doesn't count as a strong argument and isn't supported), Shiloh says something akin to "Rush Limbaugh, neener, neener."

A couple or three people say, "What does talk radio or conservatives being involved in politics have to do with anything at all?"

Shiloh says, "Deflection! Faux Noise! Neener neener!"

And we go from there.

You're the one "deflecting" Shiloh. Conservative involvement in politics has nothing to do with the assertion that liberal's entire existence is about turning institutions into ways to promote their liberal causes.

Even an argument structure of "but you do it too" supports the initial assertion instead of opposing it.

"You do it too" might be an automatic response to political opponents, but in this case it's akin to saying, "Yes, your assertion was correct."

For the love of Pete! John made an absolute statement. How can you NOT manage to credibly counter an assertion expressed as an absolute?; 1/27/12, 7:53 PM
Known Unknown said...: Althouse is being as cruelly neutral as possible in this thread. She never tips her hand whether or not she agrees with The Wisconsin Idea or this professor's particular proclivities.

She points out that things are this way in Wisconsin because Wisconsin itself is this way, or something to that effect.; 1/27/12, 8:16 PM
David said...: "The problem is that he is apparently using university resources, money and performing at least some of these activities during university time. "

I did not see that in the article.; 1/27/12, 8:37 PM
Chip S. said...: Joel Rogers's course description:

This class is about the design of an egalitarian-democratic “affirmative” or “welfare” state consistent with “the rule of law.” As treated here, the activities of the “welfare state” include not only income maintenance and social insurance programs but those many other policies and programs, characteristic of all modern capitalist democracies, that supplement or replace unregulated markets and formal rights and procedural democracy in the pursuit of improved living standards and more substantive equality among members. We will examine the welfare state origin and evolution, current problems, and strategies to address those problems.

Gotta love the ironic quotation marks on "the rule of law."

How much shit like this gets passed off as rigorous legal training, at Wisconsin and elsewhere?; 1/27/12, 8:48 PM
DADvocate said...: Althouse conservatives get pithy...

Are you doing any speech therapy for that lisp?; 1/27/12, 10:26 PM
DADvocate said...: I did not see that in the article.

Did you follow the link to The College Fix?

"Rogers offered funding for students who helped with ALICE through another organization he controls called the Center on Wisconsin Strategy (COWS). COWS was founded in 1992 and is based at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, in the Social Science Building."; 1/27/12, 10:30 PM
SDN said...: "Why is he allowed to run a liberal activist group on the campus of a state university?"

Because he's got tenure, and his fellow travelers agree with him?; 1/28/12, 12:10 AM
SDN said...: "The students are not required to participate. They have an option."

So does a business owner when confronted with Guido and Luigi requesting he purchase an insurance policy, David.; 1/28/12, 12:11 AM
Meade said...: EMD said...
"Althouse is being as cruelly neutral as possible in this thread. She never tips her hand whether or not she agrees with The Wisconsin Idea or this professor's particular proclivities.

She points out that things are this way in Wisconsin because Wisconsin itself is this way, or something to that effect."

Wouldn't it be a test of one's true commitment to federalism: A state made up of 1 million Saul Alinskys forming a majority?

Or, on the other hand, one's true commitment to democracy: 1 million tea partyers electing a governor.; 1/28/12, 11:23 AM
ken in tx said...: I thought this was going to be about special ops troops who were trained to kill and therefore should be allowed to go out and kill someone every once and a while. Which BTW is not true, even though some of you probably believe it.; 1/28/12, 11:29 AM