Asserts Jeffrey Toobin... mystifyingly. Holder is fighting against voter ID laws, and the argument that these laws violate rights isn't pure and simple, as Toobin's own article shows. So why is Toobin saying that? It's by contrast to all the other issues that Holder might want to use "to define his legacy as Attorney General — as something more than the guy who tried, and failed, to have Guantánamo Bay detainees tried in federal court in New York."
There is a purity, a simplicity, about the voting-rights fight that is sadly absent from many modern civil-rights battles. This is not about special privileges, or quotas, or even complex mathematical formulae.
Why be sad? The straightforward civil-rights battles have been won. Those that are left are questionable. That's
good. Unless you define the good in terms of opportunities for Eric Holder to define his legacy.
It's about a basic right of American citizenship, which is being taken from large numbers of people for the most cynical of reasons. [Voter ID] laws are, quite literally, indefensible...
Ridiculous! They're completely defensible. The case law is clear that requiring an ID doesn't violate the Constitution.
The Supreme Court said so in 2008, in a 6-3 case. Holder still has a chance to use statutory law against the states that are covered by the Voting Rights Act, but to do that he'll have to argue for
a broad interpretation of congressional powers, and what's pure and simple about that?
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257 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 257 of 257Bully to you, pp, for doing so. Thus, I suppose you're also a booster of the Heileinesque, "an armed society is a polite society", and the "this is known as bad luck" axiom?
I love how fast people are to the draw around here. Worth sticking through the firestorm.
Opponents to this act like every person is incapable of doing anything for themselves with regard to voting.
--Most people will have no problem getting the required ID since they drive or can otherwise get to a DMV.
--Most who don't drive or have access to public transportation to get to the DMV for a free ID have friends or family that can take them. So we are down a double-digit number of folks in the whole state who have absolutely NO family or friends.
--If a person has a birth certificate snafu then there is also that network of family or friends or for those with no family or friends....wait for it.....a political party could sponsor that cost......just like they get folks to register before election day and drive them to the polls on election day.
4th post on the thread was from Robert, a Canadian who pointed out Canada requires photo ID. Looking on Google, it appears all other long established democracies require Voter ID. (Yes, it appears that Haiti with it's latest incarnation of Democracy doesn't...for what that is worth to the Democrat argument)
All the EU countries, Mexico, Panama and further south all the other Latin America nations, China, Japan, Philippines, Israel, Turkey, most Arab countries with the Vote, Vietnam, Australia.
In poor India, the world's largest democracy - photo ID is required..many options..Electors ID card, passport, government &state industries worker ID, lorry license, military ID.
The argument here by democrats is that blacks are too stupid, poor, and lazy to get ID for anything. That and the desire to make "undocumented workers" into "undocumented voters".
That and the old Democrat machine politics organization, where the adage for cities under white, then black, and now in certain places Mex-American control is to vote early and often..and people "resting" in cemeteries have voting rights, too! My grandfather was fond of saying that both his parents became loyal democrats that voted in every election once they were buried in a Chicago cemetery.
The Constitution simply states that voters in a federal election "shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."
If voting was a basic (or constitutional) right, we wouldn't have had to pass three Amendments stating you can't deny or abridge the right to vote based on race, gender or age, or an Amendment banning poll taxes. The mere fact that we have expressed certain ways that voting rights cannot be denied confirms that there are ways that they can be denied.
"Almost 200 comments and nobody has brought up the "When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere" quote from Heinlein yet?"
I love me some Heinlein.
200 comments and no one has talked about the Constitutionality of the Voting Rights Acts, how it has been perverted since it's passing...
And how a racist and agenda driven man by the name of Eric Holder is now the SOLE arbiter of voting rights laws, usurping the rights of the Several States to hold free and independent elections.
BY they way-
Here in Michigan, my ID is verified not once, but twice when I vote.
Did I say Michigan?
I meant the non-liberal enclaves of Michigan-
The argument here by democrats is that blacks are too stupid, poor, and lazy to get ID for anything. That and the desire to make "undocumented workers" into "undocumented voters".
Who is specifically arguing that again? 177,000 seniors in Wisconsin do not have the proper ID to vote. Three counties do not have a DMV at all. More than one-half of Wisconsin's 91 DMVs are open only on a part-time basis; 26% for only one day per month, or less. Only one WI DMV is open on weekends at all.
poll taxes weren't very much $$$$.
As has been said, most places have them available for free, it's a non-issue.
177,000 seniors in Wisconsin do not have the proper ID to vote. Three counties do not have a DMV at all. More than one-half of Wisconsin's 91 DMVs are open only on a part-time basis; 26% for only one day per month, or less. Only one WI DMV is open on weekends at all.
Sounds like you should be concerned about how WI is wasting your money. I'm sure Walker probably just slashed the DMV budget 50% or more since he took office and right up until his election, they were open ALL OF THE TIME.
In my state, DMV's are hardly rare and you can get a new license if you lost one within 10 minutes during lunch hour.
@ Henry
No, I meant SS Tax - you know...from your wages. You do know what I'm talking about, right?
Since EITC is to mitigate the amount they pay in, and in some cases, overcompensate for FICA, unless we get into specific income, I don't really pay too much atten to the FICA argument.
That 177,000 number cited by libruls, i.e Garbage, seems to have been from a 2005 study done by UW-Milwaukee. I wish I could find that original report if it even really exists. I call BS on this librul claim.
Who is specifically arguing that again? 177,000 seniors in Wisconsin do not have the proper ID to vote
Who says they drive in the first place?
Who buses them in?
Or does some helpful aide hold the pen while they mark their ballot at the nursing center?
Which, oddly enuf, might have required some form of ID to qualify.
Who is specifically arguing that again?
Eric Holder maybe? Did you take the time to read the blog post before you jumped in the comments?
Sounds like you should be concerned about how WI is wasting your money
They are wasting my money. About 7 million dollars to implement the new law to fix a nonexistent problem. Just like conservatives though to throw money and burdensome government rules and regulations for no apparent reason.
Garage claims that 177,000 Wisconsin seniors don't currently have proper ID to vote.
Is that "don't have" or "can't have". In either case, why?
If Acorn can register thousands of cartoon characters, surely they can help seniors get proper ID.
Eric Holder maybe? Did you take the time to read the blog post before you jumped in the comments?
Why don't you start pasting what you're talking about re: Holder instead of asking people to guess?
Seeing Red:
Many many librul sources [Demos, MSNBC, Wisc Journal etc] have been repeating this exact same number for a few years. I was able to track an attribution for it back to an alleged study done by UW-Milwaukee in 2005 but I can not find the actual study.
So, I call BS on the 177,000. It sounds like some of the bogus numbers claimed by the far left librul Brennan Center.
What do they say about a lie getting around the world before the truth even gets out of bed?
How many people who vote without ID do you think are purposefully voting illegally. I believe most of them are. I want them stopped. Every one that votes is stealing someone else's vote. I don't know how you can be concerned about voter rights and accept that.
"She could apply for an absentee ballot without an ID (since she's already registered) and then vote absentee for the rest of her life (after 1 application), so the interest she's asserting is only in being able to vote in person."
No, she actually has to provide a photo ID once - either in person or send a copy through the mail. Once it's on file, she can continue to vote absentee without providing it again.
http://gab.wi.gov/taxonomy/term/135
Why don't you start pasting what you're talking about re: Holder instead of asking people to guess?
It is not my job to educate you or keep you apprised of current events. You asked a question and I answered it. If you want more information, may I suggest this website that I have heard people find useful:
Information on the interwebs!
One reason to support voter ID laws is the dishonesty on the part of the anti-voter ID partisans.
In the New Yorker article Althouse links, Toobin says that "“voter fraud” is a cure in search of a disease.
To back up this argument he links to what he identifies as "independent" studies.
One link is to a whitepaper by the NAACP Legal Defense & Education Fund. This a partisan outfit that opposes voter ID laws. Another is to the Brennan center. This is also a partisan outfit that opposes voter ID laws. The last link isn't to a "independent study", but an NY Times story on voting in the Bay Area that includes this:
Indeed, absentee ballots have caused concern in San Francisco’s election, where 58 percent of votes were cast this way. Journalists reported seeing supporters of Mayor Lee in Chinatown last month assisting voters with their ballots — using an overlay stencil in some cases to ensure that ballots were marked a particular way — and then pocketing the ballots. The San Francisco district attorney’s office is investigating.
"... Garage claims that 177,000 Wisconsin seniors don't currently have proper ID to vote..."
They must not be able to conduct a basic banking transaction either then.
Sofa
First you ask me if I read the blog post. I did. I re-read it. Nothing in there about Holder accusing anyone of racism. Now it's my job to go find a quote from Holder that you can't? Jesus Christ.
Garage -
Obviously it is not a quote, it is a paraphrasing, admittedly an uncharitable one, of Holder's legal argument that Voter ID laws are unconstitutional.
About 7 million dollars to implement the new law to fix a nonexistent problem.
7M? Democrats waste more than that on brutally inefficient green companies that cannot hope to make a profit.
They spend more than that making taxpayers pay for PBS that only infants or the wealthy watch.
They spend more than that on art exhibits that wealthy folks tend to adore --- but not enough to fiscally support.
Tell me more about how insuring the legitimacy of elections (because, to give you a hint, nobody REALLY believes Franken won his Senate seat in MN) is not worth the money.
You guys can carry on about imaginary voter fraud, imaginary ACORN boogeymen, and imaginary Holder accusations. Maybe I'll check back later to see if the conversation has turned to fake moon landings.
To a liberal, the government requiring you to buy health insurance is just fine.
Buying a $10 picture ID to vote is fascism.
This is why I don't take liberals seriously.
There are not 177,000 people of voting age in Wisconsin with no form of ID.
Garage, which are the 4 WI counties that don't have DMVs? I checked the DMV website and can't find those four counties.
I've dealt with WI DMV for almost 40 years and have always had to work around their rotating schedules and weird open/closing times. When I got a CDL, it was even worse...including a 50 mile one-way drive for the road test.
Rs and Ds will help voters get to the polls on election day...why can't they help with transportation for obtaining IDs?
"... Garage, which are the 4 WI counties that don't have DMVs?.."
Easy. The four WI counties whose residents can't drive because they can't get a drivers license.
Garage, which are the 4 WI counties that don't have DMVs? I checked the DMV website and can't find those four counties.
Simple solution. ID the counties where voter ID is supposed to be difficult to get. Compare voter turnout with WI counties where voter ID is easy to get.
If you are really going to make the case that lack of ID is preventing a significant number of voters from casting their ballot, this is where you start, not anecdotes or gibbering about poll taxes in the old South.
Assuming that you are not against voter ID because it makes fraud more difficult.
There are not 177,000 people of voting age in Wisconsin with no form of ID.
There are over 177k of just elderly Wisconsinites that do not have the proper ID to vote in accordance with the new law. Think of it this way: If Republicans weren't disenfranchising vast amounts of voters, they wouldn't bother messing around with it. They know exactly who it affects.
How is it not racist to infer that the ID requirement discriminates against minorities? Do liberals believe blacks are incapable of getting ID's? I really would like a serious answer to those questions.
Holder's position is very simple-- use all his power to ensure the Democrat agenda is implemented, whether or not his actions are legal or constitutional. Voter ID would prevent voter fraud, and voter fraud is a time-honored way for Democrats to win elections.
Garage, which are the 4 WI counties that don't have DMVs? I checked the DMV website and can't find those four counties.
It's three: Buffalo, Menominee and Vernon.
I suspect that those are rural, and therefore pretty conservative, counties; I also suspect that the number of eligible voters in these three counties who don't already have photo ID number in the single digits.
So within these counties, how many Democrat voters would be disenfranchised, garage? 2?
Again: There were 200,000 fraudulent registrations in Ohio in 2008.
And there were multiple interviews conducted with people all over the country who bragged of making $10 from an ACORN employee for each of the 40 or 50 votes they cast.
And you're worried about 2 people on the frozen tundra who might be inconvenienced in order to vote. Jesus Christ, the intellectual dishonesty is sickening.
Jesus Christ, the intellectual dishonesty is sickening.
I'm not sure if this a "render unto Caeser" topic or not. It's worth thinking about, though.
The government won't even let a person buy Sudafed without a driver's license around here.
Here is an interesting map:
http://thepolitikalblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/wisconsin-2004-presidential-election-margins1.png?w=507&h=561
Anyone who thinks that opposition to voter ID laws in Wisconsin is aimed at raising turnout in small towns where ID is harder to get needs to have their head examined.
Just curious, Garage - have Republicans ever, in the history of the world, ever not done something in bad faith? Or are they all just evil from birth?
Fear of uncovering fraud would be the only motivator not to verify every vote.
I wonder how many of those 177K seniors are mentally incompetent or dead?
Voter ID laws always disenfranchise dead voters.
""There is a purity, a simplicity..." to Eric Holder's fight for voter rights."
With this Orwellian administration, "voter rights" does not include an election free of fraudulent voting.
We all know one another here, garage. You can admit to us that you oppose voter ID because it hurts your team.
You don't have to lie to us and treat us as if we're idiots. You're better than that.
Pew Research says voting by minorities increased in 2008 and decreased for non-hispanic whites. This a long term trend.
Didn't Toobin write something about a "cure in search of a disease" in his article?
The levels of participation by black, Hispanic and Asian eligible voters all increased from 2004 to 2008, reducing the voter participation gap between themselves and white eligible voters. This was particularly true for black eligible voters. Their voter turnout rate increased 4.9 percentage points, from 60.3% in 2004 to 65.3% in 2008, nearly matching the voter turnout rate of white eligible voters (66.1%). For Hispanics, participation levels also increased, with the voter turnout rate rising 2.7 percentage points, from 47.2% in 2004 to 49.9% in 2008. Among Asians, voter participation rates increased from 44.6% in 2004 to 47.0% in 2008. Meanwhile, among white eligible voters, the voter turnout rate fell slightly, from 67.2% in 2004 to 66.1% in 2008.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1209/racial-ethnicvoters-presidential-election
We all know one another here, garage. You can admit to us that you oppose voter ID because it hurts your team.
So you admit photo ID laws are meant to keep Democratic voters from the polls. The one unintentionally honest post in thread from the right.
No, Garage, he's saying voter fraud generally helps democrats.
I don't necessarily agree with him, but at least I can read.
No, Garage, he's saying voter fraud generally helps democrats.
Even when facts hit someone right in the face, it seems like nutball theories like this get even more entrenched. It's just bizarre. JB van Hollen righteously tried to find voter fraud in 2008. Out of 3 MILLION cast, he came up with 3 suspicious ballots. In a sane world that would end it, but of course we don't live in that world.
Asking people to produce identification when voting is nothing new. It happens now. If you aren't on the voting rolls, then there are facilities to be given an ID on the spot or given a provisional ballot,no? So what's the problem?
I'm ignoring the rest of your tripe, but I bolded something I find absolutely stupid. Those people pay taxes, and lots of it. It's silly to say they don't.
What Isaid is that theyj don't pay any income taxes. I made no mention of other taxes. You make a huge leap and claim I'm saying they don't pay any taxes. If you want to debate what I said we can, otherwise you're an idiot debating your own lie with yourself. A typical liberal.
Please excuse my typing. I'm using a laptop which not used to at all.
It is wise to remember that liberals live in a world where black is white, up is down, etc.
The Brennan center, approvingly cited by Toobin as vouching that no voter fraud exists, defines voter fraud this way:
"Voter fraud" is fraud by voters.
More precisely, "voter fraud" occurs when individuals cast ballots despite knowing that they are ineligible to vote, in an attempt to defraud the election system.
http://bit.ly/vnsVO1
Most liberals use this definition of the term "voter fraud" uncritically.
According to the Brennan Center's definition, if you work at a polling place and stuff the box, no voter fraud has taken place. If you are a provider at a nursing home and you fill out your client's mail-in ballots and send them to the state, there is no voter fraud. If you show up at the local skid row with a van, pile in a dozen winos, and drive them from polling place to polling place, paying them a dollar for each vote cast, no voter fraud has taken place.
There are not 177,000 people of voting age in Wisconsin that have no ID. The linked "study" linked is absurdly flawed and began with the end in mind.
Oh Garage, you mean the 3 counties that are having service centers opened in 2012?
An article by Christian Schneider on the Brennan report, which opponenets of voter ID like to use.
Unless those people registering have a quota to meet and thus have a personal financial incentive to fake registration.
Yes, "unless". In most cases there is no such financial incentive.
About 7 million dollars to implement the new law to fix a nonexistent problem.
That hilarious. Obama wasted more money than that in the time it took you to write that post. :)
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