An orderly crowd first filled the lawn in front of Old Main when news of Mr. Paterno’s firing came via students’ cellphones. When the crowd took to the downtown streets, its anger and intensity swelled. Students shouted “We are Penn State.”I'm interested in the way this protest resembles the Wisconsin protests and the Occupy [Your City] protests and the way it does not. We have a growing culture of protest in America right now. There are certain clichés, like: "We are [X]." So: "We are the 99%" is echoed here as "We are Penn State." There's a group claiming to embody far more people than are present at the protest. There are the vuzuvelas.
Some blew vuvuzelas, others air horns. One young man sounded reveille on a trumpet....
Just before midnight the police lost control of the crowd. Chanting, “Tip the van,” they toppled the news vehicle and then brought down a nearby lamp post. When the police opened up with pepper spray, some in the crowd responded by hurling rocks, cans of soda and flares. They also tore down street signs, tipped over trash cans and newspaper vending boxes and shattered car windows.
Some students noted the irony that they had come out to oppose what they saw as a disgraceful end to Mr. Paterno’s distinguished career as a football coach, and then added to the ignobility of the episode by starting an unruly protest....
As the crowd got more aggressive, so did police officers. Some protesters fought back. One man in gas mask rushed a half dozen police officers in protective gear, blasted one officer with pepper spray underneath his safety mask and then sprinted away. The officer lay on the ground, rubbing his eyes.
But the Penn State protest instantly went into riot mode, with violence galore. That makes it different from the Wisconsin protests, which got very big and went on for weeks and weeks, with lots of noise, but practically nothing that can be called violence and only one truly disorderly night, nearly a month into the protests. And even that did not include a battle with the police. The the Occupy [Your City] protests have likewise dragged on for a long time, in a lot of different places, but people are working reasonably well to control each other, even as criminals and lowlifes can easily join the overnight camps.
But look at Penn State. The young people receive the news that their hero-coach got the boot, and they're there in instant full riot mode. Why the difference? You might say it's an outburst of pure emotion. What happened has already happened. There's no policy to influence, no course of events to sway. There's nothing left to do but howl. But look at that quote I put in the post title, and look at the way the attacks were directed at reporters. There does seem to be a message beyond inarticulate screams of rage and sorrow. It's directed not at the government and not at the banks and the corporations, but at the media. The media was unfair. The media took a great man down. The protesters may be in a frenzy, but — taking that quote for all it's worth — the media had its feeding frenzy on Joe Paterno and destroyed him overnight.
There's a lot to think about here, but I want to highlight the anger at the media. Of all the things that are firing up protesters these days, it is the media that fired the most rage.
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176 comments:
"We Are Penn State" has been a slogan/motto for the school looong before the Occupy [whatever] people have been around. No idea how long, but when I arrived there in 2000, it was already in the blood.
For the record--I'm glad they fired Spanier and am ashamed at the riots yesterday.
I'm interested in the way this protest resembles the Wisconsin protests and the Occupy [Your City] protests and the way it does not.
Here is how the Penn State riots differs from the Wisconsin and OWS protests. Penn State rioted. Wisconsin and OWS protests did not.
Why does football make people so crazy and emotional? Most of these students don't play on the team; most of them have probably never met the coach. What does this even have to do with them? Just because he taught some people to throw a ball around well doesn't make him a "great man." He's just a coach; he made a terrible mistake and was fired for it.
I simply don't understand why this merits an emotional response. You don't usually see this with other sports, but when it's football (college football), people act as if anything that happens is some sort of a personal affront to them. I don't get it.
- Lyssa
I have a feeling that this whole response is just a reaction to the betrayal done to them. It's the Kubler-Ross model writ large, Denial and Anger at the same time because someone they held in high regard, so high regard that he was the symbol of their university and everything in it, has been shown to be complicit in the most horrendous of crimes. It's hard when people lose their heroes and reminds me of the way a lot of good Catholics tried to defend the Church (though it never got violent as most weren't young, hormonal, probably drunk, and absolutely surrounded by people feeling a similar betrayal). It sucks. They're hurt. I think if this continues it's indicative of a growing protest culture, but right now I think it has exclusively to do with a lot of hurt kids losing something that was important to them and that was the model of 'St. Joe.'
I was taken aback by the PSU students' reaction, too.
Fox News reporters have routinely been harassed and threatened at OWS, too.
I've been following the PSU news in the Harrisburg newspaper, and they've been pretty even handed. They clearly like Paterno and respect his achievements, but they also have been tough on him for his perceived inaction.
I sometimes get the feeling that the demonstrating/rioting thing for college students is just a ritual to which they feel entitled, like Spring Break. They've watched the movies and documentaries, and their parents have regaled them with stories from the 60s.
The message the kids seem to have received is that they ought to be allowed to cut loose and riot every once in a while, but that there should be no serious repercussions because they're kids.
The local media in Harrisburg and State College has been pretty measured and careful in its coverage. I think the kids just feel entitled to what they want, and entitled to revenge against anybody who won't give them what they want.
Wat to see their heads explode? Ask them to riot in support of a bishop protecting a pedophile priest. Because that's what they're doing.
According to this piece, 'We Are Penn State' dates to 1948 as a civil rights gesture.
This is why they are students. They still have a lot to learn.
wv: sinhor
When Alan Freed and some other DJs were brought down in '59, you saw the same thing. Kids would tell the news people, "You and your damned investigations", although there were no riots (all the authority figures were WWII vets, after all), so we've seen this before.
But, let's face it, without community organizers, you don't have riots, generally.
PS Was any Occupation missing it's community organizers last night?
The coach kept silent about child rape to save his own & the rapist's reputation. The students merely want their games to continue. True of the Occupy crowd too. They're angry not to be able to afford the diversions they feel entitled to.
It's hard when people lose their heroes and reminds me of the way a lot of good Catholics tried to defend the Church...
Pretty bad analogy in every way.
I don't think people adhere to Catholicism out of hero worship. At least, I don't.
I attend two different parishes, one in Jersey and one in NY. In neither of those parishes have I witnessed any reluctance to confront the sexual abuse issue. The priests in each of those parishes have spoken repeatedly about the shame they feel over any abuses that have actually occurred, their determination to stop abuse, and have made prayers for victims a routine part of services.
I have close priests friends who are no longer allowed to entertain me in their private rooms.
I will however, "defend," the Church. The instances of abuse are no greater than those in the general populace. The deliberate introduction of overtly gay men into seminaries was a terrible mistake.
And, once the suits got started, ambulance chaser attorneys and money seeking extortionists piled on.
Saying this in no way excuses the real cases of abuse that occurred.
+1 to MartyH.
These students are rioting in support of an enabler of child rape.
They are young. That is all.
Cult members become irate when their leader is removed without permission.
Why be mad at the media? You've got to blame someone outside of Penn State.
I'm interested in the way this protest resembles the Wisconsin protests and the Occupy [Your City] protests and the way it does not.
Feeling entitled and being thoughtless is how they resemble each other.
Entitled. We are the [whatever] and we are special and deserve [whatever] no matter what
Thoughtless. No deep thinking about pretty much anything. No logical reasoning about the consequences of their actions or about the source of their angst over being denied their entitlement. No solutions or plans.
Knee jerk reactions to [whatever]. In essence a mob of adolescent immature babies throwing gigantic tantrums at the expense of the public.
"The young people receive the news that their hero-coach got the boot, and they're there in instant full riot mode. Why the difference?"
The difference is that Penn State students are old hat at this shit. When Osama Bin Laden was killed, they rioted. They riot over sporting events all of the time.
It's one of those things that, as a Pennsylvanian, I've never understood.
It's similar to beer riots at universities. Something was taken away from them. They wanted to keep the thing that was taken away.
It's not about policy. The students felt like their identities were under attack.
And they are young -- lots of energy & testosterone. Some of them probably rioted for fun.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Here is how the Penn State riots differs from the Wisconsin and OWS protests. Penn State rioted. Wisconsin and OWS protests did not
If by that you mean LITERALLY OWS, it’s almost true, if by “OWS” you Oakland you fail…even in NYC they’ve assaulted the police.
Beaver Canyon is a problematic part of State College and has been for years. It's depressing to read about moronic students rioting there again. I'm glad the clear majority of PSUers were not.
I wonder why the Administration doesn't have in place plans to meet students, say at Eisenhower or Schwab, to help students process events. Because they clearly need help.
Assigning responsibility for these things can be quite a chore.
I watched a Vietnam documentary last night, and Tom Hayden appeared to discuss the riots at the 1968 Chicago Democratic Party convention.
Hayden was one of the founders of the Weathermen.
To this day, he still blames the riots, and the police response, on "police brutality."
I was pretty close to, but not a member of the Weathermen in 1968, and I was there in Chicago.
The Weathermen flooded Chicago with pamphlets and leaflets declaring that that they were bringing "Days of Rage" to the city, and bragging that they wanted to engage in the police in street violence.
And, yet, Hayden to this day denies any responsibility for the violence that ensued.
"lyssalovelyredhead said...
Why does football make people so crazy and emotional? ...I simply don't understand why this merits an emotional response."
All granfalloons promote loyalty as a primary virtue. Attacks on the symbols or ambassadors of the granfalloon are an attack on all its members.
Add alcohol and the relative insanity of youth, and anything can happen.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Related but Off-Topic:
HeadlinesWe pick, you click.
NESN
“[H]old on to your stomachs, boys, this is gross”
“I can give you a rumor and I can give you something I think might happen,” Madden told John Dennis and Gerry Callahan. “I hear there’s a rumor that there will be a more shocking development from the Second Mile Foundation — and hold on to your stomachs, boys, this is gross, I will use the only language I can — that Jerry Sandusky and Second Mile were pimping out young boys to rich donors. That was being investigated by two prominent columnists even as I speak.”
Madden also spoke more definitively to the cover-up efforts at the school and beyond that he expects will be made public soon.
“The other thing I think that may eventually become uncovered, and I talked about this in my original article back in April, is that I think they’ll find out that Jerry Sandusky was told that he had to retire in exchange for a cover-up,” Madden said. “If you look at the timeline, that makes perfect sense, doesn’t it?
http://www.nesn.com/2011/11/jerry-sandusky-rumored-to-have-been-pimping-out-young-boys-to-rich-donors-says-mark-madden.html
Wisconsin and OWS protests did not.
Wisconsin I would agree with. All OWS protests non-voilent? What's your threshold for calling something a riot?
As far as the instant switch to riot mode? Two things instantly come to mind. A sense of entitlement and freedom from retribution. Rioters feel, possibly because of the culture, that they are entitled to vent their anger in physical ways. It's a temper tantrum no different from that of a small child, who likewise feels entitled to do so. And, likewise, that small child will go right on throwing tantrums until the parent has proven, however it's accomplished, that tantrums yield negative and undesired consequences. The culture says you are free to riot and will suffer little, if any, consequences. Combined with an economic backdrop and a pervading sense of doom...Dooom...DOOOOOOM what do you expect?
When you say that everyone's worldview is equally valid, that there is no shame because everyone is free from being judged by others, this is the end result.
Shouting Thomas, you're kind of missing my point. There were more than a few good Catholics who tried to defend Bernard Law as the victim of a media takedown, because he was representative of the Church they loved and respected. What Law did was wrong, it doesn't matter if the media had an axe to grind.
I know priestly abuse isn't greater than incidence among the general public, and I know that it's a shame that there's a dearth of reporting on abuse cases for things like big city public schools where it is a real and mostly unreported problem that is happening now and not 20-30 years in the past. That doesn't make the several bishops who hid abuse better than Paterno though...they did the same thing, and tarnished the entire institution in doing so. It may not seem fair that one person or a few people could destroy the reputation of a huge institution but that's the way it works and it's why positions of power carry great responsibility, because it's not just your reputation on the line, it's an entire groups.
"Here is how the Penn State riots differs from the Wisconsin and OWS protests. Penn State rioted. Wisconsin and OWS protests did not."
Bullshit. Just ask Oakland and even Washington, D.C.
MadisonMan: The kids do indeed need help, but it will not come from PSU and it obviously did not come from their parents. Their total disconnect from the underlying horror is beyond appalling and is reflective of liberalism's triumph of elevating permissiveness over traditional values. The kids I saw interviewed last night strung together platitudes that betrayed no interest in the "tragedy" of the horror that was committed on those young boys. They talked about process in the most disgusting lawyerly way.
You don't usually see this with other sports, but when it's football (college football), people act as if anything that happens is some sort of a personal affront to them. I don't get it.
I haven't read through all the comments yet, LH, so it's likely someone else pointed this out. American football, college or not, pales in it's fan violence when compared to the hooliganism of soccer fans worldwide. Deaths aplenty.
My take on college sports fans, in particular those not even attending the college but are maybe from the surrounding area, is that they leave high school where team identification is very high and immediately accessible, and are adrift for that sort of relationship after graduation. This is why you'll see rednecks with no relationship to a school, no kids attending, etc, be die-hard college fans. It speaks to a need to belong to a competitive team with clearly definable means of success or failure against other teams.
It may not seem fair that one person or a few people could destroy the reputation of a huge institution but that's the way it works and it's why positions of power carry great responsibility, because it's not just your reputation on the line, it's an entire groups.
There's something to what you say.
But, I'm telling you that the reputation of the Church has not been destroyed.
Services at both churches that I attend are very well attended and parishioners are generous in their support. The parishes in which I am involved are doing very well. We have a beautiful hand built church in Woodstock.
I think that most Catholics understand, as I do, that the very purpose of the Church is to serve sinners. Some of the clergy are going to be sinners. We do not endorse the sin, either.
The comment that you see often on this site that the Church ought to give up and close its doors is pretty foolish. If every institution that was afflicted with the sin of child sexual abuse closed its doors, there would be no institutions left.
A couple of things that might have caused the differences. First, it's an immediate reaction to a sudden event. Somewhat true in Wisconsin, but the changes had been brewing a long time and there were clear signals for weeks and months. Nothing like that in OWS. Second, there was a scapegoat close at hand: the media. Third, perhaps most importantly, sport. One of the primary purposes of sport is to unify, channel, and express emotion. The games' insignificance allows us to join in a pageant of emotion and artificial purpose with no real consequences to the outcome. I assume Althouse had fun last weekend in her red scarf cheering on the badgers. I'll have fun tonight cheering for the Hokies. But there is no question that a lot of people use the fun as an excuse to act out. Big victories are celebrated with everything from torn down goal posts to overturned cars. So the overturned cars here are not all that unusual.
I went to Penn State, and JoePa was an important part of the University's identity.
They also had at least one riot out in the street (Beaver Canyon) after a game while I was there. It was shameful, but not completely surprising.
In some ways, the growth of college football may be part of the egalitarian (for good and ill) impulse to include everyone in athletics and academics, driving universities away from their core mission. A tremendous amount of sentiment is involved.
Penn State is a BIG business, probably the biggest in the state, and it's run like one. So is ithe football program. It's been source of pride and identity and revenue for millions of people.
As for the media...meh. The mood is partisan, they don't have much cache these days and the van was there for the mob (not a hippie protest mob).
Let's see, a bunch of kids looking for trouble and an excuse to get riled up and have fun in irresponsible ways, and being given a scapegoat for all of their gamboling behavior.
Nope, it's a mystery what happened in Happy Valley...
I saw one student interviewed on ESPN who agreed with the firing, and another who said that, while he was upset about Paterno, he was more upset that Mike McQueary still had a job. Both of them seemed pretty aware of the facts as we have them now.
Of course there was the braying idiot who had to shout slogans while one of the students was talking, and the idiots who smashed windows, threw rocks, and turned over a van.
Yep, the media did it. Having and being aware of a coach whe was buggering young boys was just incidental.
I don't buy it, the media blame, that is. Hey, they're super frustrated - they got sucked into the false idol worship (as I brought up in an earlier post) were/are hugely invested, both with money and emotions, then got burned. I don't think these kids are heartless toward the true victims, I think they're conflicted and confused and honestly don't know what to do with it all.
After reading some of the comments, what Doc said.
On the one hand, by all accounts, JoePa single-handedly put Penn State on the map, making it into a name school. Kinda like what Knute Rockne did for Notre Dame 60 years earlier. For the last 40+ years how many kids coming out of high school chose Penn State for their destination directly or indirectly because of JoePa and his achievements? It's hard to say, but I bet it's a hefty percentage. So, to them his firing is a life-changing event.
But, then, on the other hand, today's utes don't seem to need much of an excuse to go wild.
Take your choice.
They will have more opportunities to riot.
There apparently are a number of people connected to the university that has known about Joe Sandusky for a long time.
Shouting Thomas, I don't want to dive into a theological essay here, but I still believe in the Truth of the Church and I understand the fallible nature of man. That being said, there were a few years where a lot people with otherwise no interest in Catholicism viewed it negatively, and there are some people for whom that still holds true so the reputation most certainly has been damaged.
panem et circenses et football
For chrissake saintshoutingthomas, the world consists of more than the 2 fucking parishes you attend. The Catholic Church is dying. Look @ the stats worldwide. The Emporer wears no clothes but for opus dei Kool Aiders he is regaled in flowing and holy robes. You were flat ass wrong on joepa and you're even more wrong on this.
Also, I think it' s safe to speculate that alcohol may have been involved. It's closer to a drunken sports flash mob than the clearly articulated aims of the Occupy folks:
From Paul's letter to the Pennsylvanians:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are.
What the students really mean is "You media guys are supposed to take down people we don't like, Republicans and conservatives, you know, "Them". You're supposed to cover for guys we like. John Edwards and Coach Joe Pa. You know "Us" Now get back on message. And for all you kids that got, ummm, "molested" Take one for the team. 'K?
Oh..and what Doc said!
For chrissake saintshoutingthomas, the world consists of more than the 2 fucking parishes you attend. The Catholic Church is dying. Look @ the stats worldwide. The Emporer wears no clothes but for opus dei Kool Aiders he is regaled in flowing and holy robes. You were flat ass wrong on joepa and you're even more wrong on this.
You haven't accused me of pedophilia, sexual abuse, sexual harassment and adultery yet today, spinelli.
Get busy and disgrace yourself again by committing slander against a man you don't even know.
You are truly a worthless human being.
I suspect that you will disgrace yourself again, and commit slander with reckless abandon, in your next post.
Are you so fucking stupid that you don't even know that slander is actionable?
I saw the brief interview Joe Paterno gave the press. He appeared with his wife by his side. He looked very old and fragile. He said everyone should go home and pray for the victims. Paterno surely made the wrong call, but he's no demon......Daniel Ortega was just re-elected President of Nicaragua. He also was a child rapist. The Times printed a summary of his career. They ommitted this interesting facet of his career. Roman Polanski can count on the sympathy and support of many Hollywood stars.....For some, Paterno's accomplishment in football are a mitigating factor; for others they are an intensifier. Same with the Church prelates. Our righteousness is not such a finely calibrated instrument.
"I want to highlight the anger at the media. Of all the things that are firing up protesters these days, it is the media that fired the most rage."
Reading this post reminded me of George Rude's book on the Crowd in History, and how spontaneously formed crowds have often acted in rational ways mirroring the interests of those forming the crowd despite the lack of any internal coherence or organization to the group or the fact that, as individuals, the members of the crowd express opposition to the very actions they engaged in. What started out as a (misguided) show of support for Paterno turned into a destructive attack on authority figures (the cops and the university) and focused blame on the media.
If what the students wanted was for things to have continued without change -- keeping Paterno in place, basically -- it made sense to blame the messenger. In this case, there were two: the authorities running the grand jury investigation which exposed the child rapes and the following cover-up, or the media which reported it and the resulting calls for Paterno to be fired. I think the crowd was probably right that what forced the trustees to fire Paterno was the follow-up publicity even more than the grand jury report itself (which reported Paterno's role but did not charge him with wrongdoing). And so the media became the target of the crowd's anger.
Rude's thesis (he was talking mostly about crowds in the French Revolution) has come in for some criticism over the years, but has some application here. If you talked to any of the students individually, I suspect that most would express disgust with the destructive turn that the crowd's actions took last night. But what they wanted as a crowd was for the idyll to remain undisturbed; the crowd had its own mind, as odd as that sounds and acted rationally consistent with it.
The WI protests were a bit different. They had (at least in part and for a time) an organization and structure as well as an ideological and political goal. It wasn't a crowd that formed spontaneously as at Penn State.
Be advice, spinelli, that I will take screen shots of any further slanders you'd like to publish.
Slander is actionable.
I'm retiring, and I could use some money.
garage mahal said...
Here is how the Penn State riots differs from the Wisconsin and OWS protests. Penn State rioted. Wisconsin and OWS protests did not.
I'll give you Wisconsin, but, seriously, you haven't heard about rioting at OWS protests around the country?
A lawless spirit rose up in the student body when the lawless Father Paterno got called to account for the first time in his career.
The Media did expose what Paterno had been covering up and then showed him no mercy and did not give him a dispensation.
The Grand Jury was the real whistle blower.
The better comparison is simply comparing students to students. Wisconsin college students go into "full riot mode" simply because it is Halloween. Or at least they did before Madison grew a pair.
spinelli, the Church isn't dying if you look worldwide. In fact, it's growing. However, in the developed West, and especially in Western Europe where it has the deepest roots, it is becoming increasingly marginalized every year and that is definitely a major weakness for its future.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Slander is actionable
And to “win” you need to show DAMAGES…take all the screen shots you want, mail them anywhere you care to, hire all the solicitors you desire, but unless you can show how you were damaged by what was said on Althouse, you might as well just shut up about it…you sound like “J” right now.
Wisconsin college students go into "full riot mode" simply because it is Halloween.
Ditto Carbondale,IL when I went there back in the late 80's. HUGE party school, although I wouldn't call the Halloween parties riots. However, the school cracked down, enrollment went down, and, as a party school, it's ghost of its former self. My son is there now and can't comprehend the kind of freewheeling street parties my friends and I describe.
"the media had its feeding frenzy on Joe Paterno and destroyed him overnight."
Come on, Paterno destroyed himself. The media actually started doing their job.
Yeah but the media didn't bring him down. These students are not too bright if they think the media did anything other than do their job, which was to report on an outrageous crime that was not reported to authorities. JoaPa had to be fired. There was no choice. The students will understand that at some point.
But when your 19 adrenaline, testosterone and emotion trumps thinking.
They're right, of course. Paterno was tried and convicted in the media. He was denied the use of the American justice system just as he denied that right to the children that were apparently victimized. Should we have let the legal system run its course? In both cases, undoubtedly yes. However, we don't do that anymore. We demand results, damn the consequences.
I apologize for changing the subject, but here goes.
This spinelli asshole is using a tactic that I am encountering with great frequency. If you disagree with somebody who is quite angry about child abuse, or even about whether Cain committed sexual abuse, their response is programmatic.
Yesterday, spinelli accused me directly of being a pedophile, sexual abuser, sexual harasser and adulterer. He doesn't even know me. I was discussing the Cain business on Facebook, and another jackass responded precisely like spinelli, using precisely the same language.
So, now I've been accused twice of being a pedophile, sexual abuser, sexual harasser and adulterer. Each time, the accuser didn't even know me.
Does the accumulation of these false accusations prove something?
This is what Cain faces. The attack on him was devised in the White House, it's a cleverly devised strategy, and it's working.
I'm not sure what media vehicle was trashed, but I don't think it was ESPN's property. If anything should have been the focus of the student rage I'd say it was their specification of responsibility in Paterno. A lot of facts are going to have to come into the public domain, and they will, in order to understand the context of what Paterno did and did not do, but for ESPN they find a way to make extremely conclusive statements at this stage of the process. I'm not saying I would support violence directed at ESPN, but I might understand how it could happen.
The problem is - where to vent the outrage and anger? Sandusky looks like a good place to start, and you have to believe that he is looking at perhaps 300+ years in prison for all those counts of aggravated sexual abuse. And there may be more counts coming up.
The administrators and Coach Paterno? Their decisions have to be evaluated in terms of the instant recognition they had when the first infromation came to them (University President - "Hey, this could interrupt my cushy job and pension.", Paterno - "Hey, I might not make it to 400+ wins.", etc.) and the fact that they valued some personal privilege. perk, income or status higher than an obligation to do something to effectively stop a predator.
They've been paying attention since they were kids: It's the media's fault. Damn journalists. Damn MSM. Why should the be different from their elders and models? Why should they make careful, or any, distinctions that their elders don't (and won't)?
Shout all you want, Thomas, but the Catholic Church as an institution suffered when the molestation charges done by priests broke out into the open.
As a matter of fact, it broke out in Ireland. Where the Catholic parishioners had learned to stay mum.
Even James Joyce, in his book The Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man, did NOT tell about the abuse straightforwardly. Instead, he told the story of two kids cutting school. Where (he) saw a priest doing something very bad ... out in the open. It was for the reader to decide what the priest was doing.
And, that's the way it was.
Not openly discussed.
And, for the kids who were molested, not only was there a wall of silence. And, BLIND PARENTS! There were parents who would have gotten angry at their kids for "defying Jesus." As the rigmarole of religion was shared as a group experience, by all the relatives, neighbors. And, friends.
Seen in this light there's been a drop off in participation.
While in America, a friend of mine who is Catholic, complained to me that when she goes to Confession ... the priests at her parish, by and large, come from Third World Countries.
She said "becoming a nun was once such a privilege," there was one branch that took parents donating large sums of money, to have their daughters accepted in.
Today? It's harder to recruit the priests. And, the nuns. As it is to recruit American nurses. Instead, we're flooded with nurses, for instance, who don't speak English as their first language.
So, it's not just the Catholic Church.
Stuff changes.
When a scandal comes about ... then there's a flood of people who go out the door.
Plus, today, a kid who is an Alter Boy, will gain no advantage ... when applying to college ... to consider his service as being a good qualification for him to be accepted at a secular school of higher education.
I think "bragging that you're an Eagle Scout" has a similar effect. Falling more on deaf ears, than not.
Do churches still get parishioners? Of course they do! Cults do, too.
But the numbers have dropped! In today's world families, in general, are much smaller!
And, families are no longer dedicated to a "brand name."
Even kids who were brought up Catholic, could be joining other churches, now. (The priest no longer controls the marriage gates, either.)
There was once a time if a Catholic wanted to marry an "outsider," the marriage didn't take place!
In today's Catholic Church being divorced doesn't mean the "welcome mat" has been withdrawn, either.
What stopped the traffic? Lots of people are no longer inconsolable when they're not a "member in good standing" with their local church officials.
Drudge had up a headline the other day that church attendance was a down number, across the board. (I think he said 45% of Americans don't belong to any religious affiliation.) I don't even think the issue causing this was the discovery of pedophilia.
And, I still think telling people your kid was a victim of pedophilia is still something parents WHO KNOW ... who hide from discussing.
In the old days? It was cancer that was not discussed.
Today? Penn State is in the spotlight because discussing that your kid being a victim of pedophilia still confronts a wall of silence.
You all need to get real. Of course the Penn State students are right to protest/riot. First you have made it mandatory--since they were in kindergarten--that they treat all 'holes' as morally equal [relatively], not to mention pleasureable. What are a couple dozen 'cornholed' boys compare to the 'Awesome'? You taught the children well--get over it.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Should we have let the legal system run its course? In both cases, undoubtedly yes. However, we don't do that anymore. We demand results, damn the consequences
Look Coach Paterno, it’s like all the people you kicked off of your teams, over the years..you, like them got FIRED, not arrested. Not everything that is WRONG is ILLEGAL. So you got the axe for not doing enough, not for breaking the law…just like you suspended players who broke team rules, but not he law. It’s not that hard to understand.
Maybe if Penn St students were blaming capitalism, the MSM would be signing their praises, but they love their coach and didn't want him summarily fired (especially after he said he'd retire) when he's not the worst perpetrator here. The assistant coach WHO SAW THE RAPE gets to keep coaching. WTF? But Joe Pa, who failed to be vigilant 9 years ago, has to go? The trustees said they didn't have all the facts, but decided to get rid of Paterno based on the facts? There's a lot of contradictions going on here, a lot of hypocrisy and plenty of blame to go around.
These students are young and the whole situation is very confusing, especially to people who don't know shit about life (which describes students in general and also many of the OWS losers.)
I'm not at Penn St, so it's unclear whether the community at large was demanding that Paterno go, but the media certainly was leading the charge, so its no wonder that the students would take out their frustration on them.
While in America, a friend of mine who is Catholic, complained to me that when she goes to Confession ... the priests at her parish, by and large, come from Third World Countries.
You talk about this like it's a drawback.
My closest priest friend is a Filipino, who presided over my Jersey parish for years and returned to Manila to teach seminary.
He's a great priest, with the most exquisite devotion to service I've ever seen. His parishioners adored him for good reason.
I'll take as many priests like my Filipino friend as we can get.
I think that most Catholics understand, as I do, that the very purpose of the Church is to serve sinners. Some of the clergy are going to be sinners. We do not endorse the sin, either.
A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. -L.L.Nash (I think)
I doubt they're mad at the media. They're just mad, and making it up as they go along.
I wonder if - in addition to being fearful - the talking heads associated with the wrecked news vehicle were surprised they were targets of crowd anger?
Objection your honor, the witness[saintshoutingthomas] is being nonresponsive to the question.
Judge: Clerk, What was the question.
"How can you assert the Catholic Church is not dying based on your myopic experience w/ 2 parishes; knowing the church is a worldwide enterprise?
Witness: This is where you would respond to the question, saintshoutingthomas.
First J was more lucid than you and now Carol Herman. Now, be a man and answer the question instead of hurling invectives.
And, I testify under oath, I am not J, and I have NEVER been on Facebook. Your thinking there are programmed responses to your jibberish is Rush envy combined w/ narcissism and paranoia. And, please don't go running to Mommy Althouse or tell us about your deceased wife..be a man and answer the question.
I tried to work this out w/ you but you apparently need a team of shrinks first.
Joe, he was fired based solely on the media's repeated airing of the confession of a man who didn't stop the disgusting behavior when he walked in on it...that man's statements deserved to be evaluated and rebutted in a court of law before irrevocable action was taken.
Professor, do I get any kind of kickback for stirring up the moonbats and pushing up your numbers?
This spinelli asshole
ST, spinelli has baggage he dares not unpack. "The Catholic Church is dying. Look @ the stats worldwide" evidences sad ignorance and fear.
Professor, do I get any kind of kickback for stirring up the moonbats and pushing up your numbers?
That's quite a reply, but I notice that you did refrain from committing slander for at least one post.
This tactic that you're now using, spinelli, is also quite common. What you're saying is that there is something amiss about me getting "angry" over your outright accusations of pedophilia, sex abuse, sexual harassment and adultery.
You bet I'm getting angry. Try it again, and see what you get.
Here's a better scenario for you spinelli.
It's from your deposition.
[Lawyer]... Tell me precisely what information you base your accusations on.
Gerry, Just a few stats from Pew Research. In 2008 alone the US lost 400,000 members. In Europe the #'s are even worse. In 1991 Ireland had 84% atendance[and 50% sobriety]. In 2010 the attendance was 52%. I have plenty more stats, but first, please regale me w/ your facts..not your blind faith..your facts.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Joe, he was fired based solely on the media's repeated airing of the confession of a man who didn't stop the disgusting behavior when he walked in on it...that man's statements deserved to be evaluated and rebutted in a court of law before irrevocable action was taken
Uh NO, Coach Paterno (Jay). You coach at the pleasure of the Penn State Athletic Association, and if they decide you have done something WRONG, such as not doing enough to investigate a Child Rape or improper recruiting, NEITHER of which is a criminal offense, they can show you the door. Penn State just showed your father the door. Please get over it…tell me, when Paterno suspended or kicked players off of the Penn State team, did he need to wait until the Legal System had acted? Just get back to me on that would you?
I will say I am a little amazed that McQueary is STILL on the sidelines…
Oh so let’s re-examine your post, there…so FIRST McQueary is the rogue for not stopping the rape, BUT then McQueary could be lying about the whole thing and so we need a trial…which is it, did McQueary see or NOT SEE a rape in the shower?
Paterno didn’t need to punch, beat, fold, staple, or mutilate Sandusky…all he needed to do was report it…which he did…he’d have covered himself with glory had he followed up and when he realized no one was investigating the charge Paterno OUGHT to have contacted the Pennsylvania AG or the State Troopers to start an investigation that way. Instead, he did the minimum, and then proceeded to look the other way, allowing not only one boy to be raped, but several others subsequently! Sorry Jay Paterno (KLDavis) but your dad made a horrific mistake and the PSU Board is punishing him for that mistake.
Shouting Thomas said...
"I will however, "defend," the Church. The instances of abuse are no greater than those in the general populace. The deliberate introduction of overtly gay men into seminaries was a terrible mistake."
Are you implying that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked?
"A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints"
Would you go to a hospital where people weren't getting better?
A hospital seeks healing. When the doctors are spreading infections, it's a sign that it's not doing its job.
The church shouldn't be a leper colony.
It should be, in fact, a fount of healing and a factory for saints.
If you think that the Church is simply the place that God looks the other way, excusing sins, then you've missed about 99% of your Bible.
"There's a lot to think about here, but I want to highlight the anger at the media. Of all the things that are firing up protesters these days, it is the media that fired the most rage."
I just think this statement is dumb. There is little to think about here.
The difference is not the external forces at work, but the make-up of the groups.
PSU: All kids.
OSW: Mostly kids
WI: Mostly adults (and if you look closely, the times when things got out of control at the Capitol...yep, kids. Wasn't teachers busting down doors or rushing state Senators)
London riots: Kids
Vancouver hockey riots: kids
WI Halloween riots: Kids
The kids at Penn State felt cheated...the riots were a result of youth+mob mentality. There's your causation.
They have no values, which is what they have in common with the occupy crowd. We may need a Robespierre to bring people to their senses.
"But the Penn State protest instantly went into riot mode, with violence galore."
The Wisconsin protests were orchestrated by professionals. In Happy Valley you have some beer swilling rookies.
Alcohol is a major factor.
The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
We may need a Robespierre to bring people to their senses
Did Robespierre bring people to their senses? Funny, after him was Napoleon…I’m not sure what you mean by your statement?
Monkey see, monkey do.
Young people like to riot. It is fun and exciting. All that is needed is a trigger.
In Wisconsin, the teachers, not the students, were the targets of the GOP reforms. The teachers are too old and tired to riot. The behavior of the left was pretty bad (maybe Althouse forgets that a guy threatened her and she had to contact the police. Another guy promised to organize a campaign of menial workers in restaurants to spit in Althouse's food (which probably actually happened)). So, no riot, but not civilized. There was lots and lots of bad behavior that made Wisconsin look idiotic but no riots.
At the PSU riot, students were directly affected in that their beloved football coach was fired, the football program is likely devastated, Penn State is likely to pay $100s of millions in lawsuits that will devastate the PSU financial well being and quality, and the reputation of their university was destroyed, all in the blink of an eye. They were going to riot and the media was just a convenient target.
Well Saintshoutingthomas, I have said I "think" you may be a pedophile and I asked if you were unfaithful to your wife. Your nondenial denials are Clintonian. This is America, we can say what we think and we can ask any question we want. Your hurling invectives and be nonreponsive says everything about you and nothing about me.
shoutingthomas, I'm using pretty basic investigative techniques. I'm intriqued by you and people like you, J, and some others..not including Carol Herman. You need to understand, if you don't answer direct questions like what is the source of your superior knowledge on pedophilia, or what are your stats on the Church, you allow others to fill in the blanks.
Penn State students have had a tradition of rioting at the drop of a hat for sixteen years now. Apparently they went off to Beaver Canyon, which is also, traditionally, the place to go riot in State College.
Ever since they let us into the Big Ten, the school's gone down the crapper. Full of entitled, boozed-up upper-middle-class imbeciles. It's not even really about football, any more than centuries of Byzantine "color riots" were about racing partisanship. It's the collapse of responsibility found when unsupervised, undisciplined teenagers gather in large collective mobs.
Typical Pennsylvania knuckle dragging mongoloid culture. Fucking retards.
shoutingthomas, I'm using pretty basic investigative techniques.
No, you're just fucking lowlife, spinelli.
You'll use slander to win an argument on a weblog.
How much lower can a person get?
There isn't even anything to be gained by using slander as a political weapon.
You're just a piece of shit.
David, You're correct..booze is a factor in this and in a high % of crime. But booze is legal and pot is criminal. I'd much rather see this large group eating Twinkies and Snickers.
PaddyO, You are a voice of religious reason. And, please always remember when I take shots @ the Irish and drinking, my mother was Irish[the 6th of 13 kids].
Rioting in defense of a coverup-er just shows how already corrupt these very young people are. This is just one more example of a sea change in America, a deliberate sea change: the successful corruption of the young. The other examples are the Occupiers, wherever they be, who are mainly young and in the way of the totally corrupt are demonstrating for the thieving state and against the productive so-called 1%, in reality the great middle/working class, that the state battens on and that the young Occupiers hope to batten on: corrupt to the core.
The football program at Penn State should be canceled for this season.
Unfortunately, not only do these students riot, they also vote. But, you knew that.
The football program at Penn State should be canceled for this season.
No, it shouldn't.
You hate football. We know that.
Football is not the cause of child sexual abuse. Nor is the Catholic Church.
" Kirby Olson said...
The football program at Penn State should be canceled for this season.
11/10/11 12:02 PM"
Kirby, I actually think this is an idea with merit.
What about the dozens of men who were abused? What do they feel seeing people riot that a man who knew, or had heard about their rapes, did not report it to the police immediately?
More survivors are coming to light, and there are rumours that the foundation was used not just to procure, but to share children with large donors. I pray it is just a horrible rumour, but aspects of this have the feel of much more to come to light.
In my state, people who have knowledge of sexual abuse of children but do not report it are charged as accessories to the crime. That is appropriate to my way of thinking.
But I am so sorry for the young men who were raped and see students rioting over the firing of someone who had knowledge but did not report it.
Trey
Professor, do I get any kind of kickback for stirring up the moonbats and pushing up your numbers?
I don't know about the Professor, but personally I'm getting tired of all the thread pissing. All you are doing is further burnishing your douchebag credentials.
If you have a problem with ST, take it outside.
Ann, if it keeps up would you please 86 this guy?
Kirby,
I took at look at your blog. I expected the usual liberal absent minded professor, especially since you're at Delhi.
You're blog is more varied and interesting than I anticipated.
I'm in Woodstock. Ride my bike up to Delhi often.
Shouting Thomas, I agree with much of what you wrote: I do take issue with this part.
"The instances of abuse are no greater than those in the general populace."
Since when is the church supposed to act like the general populace? We are called to be transformed and really quite different.
Also, some areas of the Catholic church were run by and for pedophiles. Children were traded as sex partners and the parish basically recruited other predators pretending to be priests to join them. It was a horror.
And, this has nothing to do with gay priests or gay people. I know lots of gay people and they are not sexually attracted to children.
But honestly, the other content you wrote had me shainkg my head yes in agreement.
Trey
And, this has nothing to do with gay priests or gay people. I know lots of gay people and they are not sexually attracted to children.
Not all of the abusers were gay priests.
I wasn't suggesting that abuse was limited to gay priests.
Some of the abusers were gay priests.
Just like with heteros, some gays are pedophiles.
Crunchy, So am I. I've said, I let a lot of shit roll off my back. But, when someone is an apologist of pedophiles and claim to have a moral superiority based on some alleged higher experience I will not relent. like you, I avoid pissing matches. This is the first one I've been involved in, and I truly hope the last. I apologize to you and all who are tired of this, because I am also tired of it.
The kickback comment was trying to lighten up the tediousness of having to deal w/ moonbats. I offered a sincere olive branch to saintshoutingthomas..he ignored it.
Yet another slander.
But, when someone is an apologist of pedophiles and claim to have a moral superiority based on some alleged higher experience I will not relent.
Jesus, I'm going to be seeing you in court soon, spinelli.
I hope you've got a nice house.
You are the stupidest fuck I've ever encountered on the web.
You don't even have a sense of self-preservation.
I have absolutely no criminal record of any kind.
You are too stupid to even defend your own home. I'm going to own it.
Methadras, I spend winters in your great city. But come on, I went to college in Pa. You have to be gentle..they just starting walking upright there in the 60's.
You live in San Diego, right spinelli?
That's good. Housing prices may have gone down, but they're still very high there.
You are too stupid to even defend your own home. I'm going to own it.
You're jumping the shark, ST. Actually, you've already landed, skied back to shore and have your leather coat on and thumbs up by now.
You're jumping the shark, ST. Actually, you've already landed, skied back to shore and have your leather coat on and thumbs up by now.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that false accusations of pedophilia are actionable.
We'll certainly see.
This is rich.
ndspinelli, the Catholic Church's future is in the southern hemisphere. While the work of the church will continue in the north, it is the southern that is now growing, particularly in Africa. According to the Synod of Bishops in Africa (latest stats 2001), there are 135,600,000 church members in Africa (total population 809,105,000). There were 3,472,000 baptisms in that year, of which 1,254,000 were adults.
These statistics are penultimate, however. The last word is that the church will always suffer trials, and comfort is not to be taken in numbers but in the Spirit. We may be encouraged by increases in souls saved, but numbers do not prove truth or validity.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that false accusations of pedophilia are actionable.
Not on a blog, they're not. Take it elsewhere.
I see in some photos, McQueary is wearing a wedding ring. I wonder if he has any kids? I wonder how those kids will feel when they someday learn what their father didn't do to protect another kid?
I wonder how McQueary would feel if one of his kids were being raped, and a big, strong, young man saw it and could have stopped it, but didn't?
I wonder what McQueary's wife thinks of her husband now?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
wonder what McQueary's wife thinks of her husband now
I suspect she had a clue previous to this…generally a flawed character is more than a one-time thing….
Shouting, I’m with ScottM you have jumped the shark, several times, I believe the shark will be suing YOU for whiplash…before you know it you’re going to be dropping bad Spanglish and calling ‘Spelli a “WiccaSatanist”.
Gerry, You seem sane and reasonable. You're correct about South America. We adopted our son from South America in 1987, which @ that time had the highest % of Catholics of any country. Indeed, we could not have adopted our son if I were not Catholic, although it was through the Colombian govt., not the Church.
You know the Church has taken a big hit. Just watch the Chicago local news. Virtually every week a church or school closes. Just this week the oldest black Catholic Church in the nation closed on the southside. The National Catholic Reporter calls what's happening "the largest institutional crisis in Church history."
The Catholic Church formed my moral core. It pains me greatly to see it implode. It pains me even more when people point to boogey men trying to bring it down. The Churches wounds are self inflicted. And, they continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
There you go with more of that validation. Rewarding behavior gets you yadda yadda yadda...
36fsfiend said...
Shouting Thomas said...
"I will however, "defend," the Church. The instances of abuse are no greater than those in the general populace. The deliberate introduction of overtly gay men into seminaries was a terrible mistake."
Are you implying that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked?
===================
Homosexuality and pederasty have been linked together for thousands of years. Prominent in many cultures, lauded by many homosexuals who see the boy-man relationships of the Greeks, Arabs, Chinese, Prussians, English as optimal.
Great confusion exists because copy editors found "pedophile priests" optimal headline. But almost all the priests were lifestyle 100% gay men that seduced not children under puberty, but cute gay adolescents they carefully selected.
As with the line "Not ALL Muslims are terrorists"...
Not ALL Gays are pederasts and pedophiles.
But gays are disproportionately involved. Phrases like "Rent Boy", NAMBLA, "chickenhawk", the man- boy love that "dare not speak its name" part of the culture. Famous pederasts are beloved gay icons. Even spoofed - "Billy, go you like gladiator movies?? " "Have you ever seen a naked man?"
garage mahal said...
[to AA said... I'm interested in the way this protest resembles the Wisconsin protests and the Occupy [Your City] protests and the way it does not.]
"Here is how the Penn State riots differs from the Wisconsin and OWS protests. Penn State rioted. Wisconsin and OWS protests did not."
And here's how this protest resembles the Wisconsin protests: Not representative of the majority. Smug sanctimonious self-serving crybabies in psychological denial acting out.
ST, thanks I guess. 28 is a pretty good road, but it's a hard slog on a bicycle I bet.
Some time email me when you're coming up here and we can meet in one of the local cafes, like Crossroads.
I don't go down to Woodstock very often now. I used to go there to visit Golden Notebook bookstore, and to see events at the Bearsville Theatre (especially poets).
I used to be quite involved in Beatnik and other milieux but got sick of the NAMBLA stuff (Burroughs and Ginsberg were just putrid as it turns out).
Now, Paterno seems to be up to his neck in this stuff, and didn't seem to truly care about the children. But exactly what he knew has not yet been verified. It took years for the investigation to come to light.
How many other cockroaches will run scurrying as the light is shone on the whole organization? how many people knew? Kicking out Paterno, to my mind, is about as much of a no-brainer as kicking out Qaddafi.
I don't like football, it's true. I hate it, in fact. Part of it is that I can't see the emotions on the players' faces because of the helmets. So I have no way to read what's going on.
It's not that I'm completely against violent sports. Well, I am, but I like to watch boxing. Someone may be getting their brains pounded, but I like to see the emotions on the faces of players.
Football doesn't allow this, so it's boring to me, and technical.
But I think any organization within a college which is as completely corrupt as Penn State football should be shut down for a year pending further investigation. Our colleges and universities should represent our nation's highest ideals. Penn State football is not even at Obama's level.
The Vatican just put out a press release:
"We are appalled and saddened the way Penn State hs handled the Jerry Sandusky affair. He should have been transferred to another school as soon as the allegations were made."
I hope the Good Lord doesn't take my house.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Saw another little ‘blurb” PSU liability may run north of $100 Million…I don’t know, is that even CLOSE to being reasonable? But no matter WHAT it turns out to be, the President, the Vice President, and the AD sure have a lot of “love” coming from the students, faculty, staff and alumni of Penn State. By sticking their heads in the sand they just made the bill worse, when it came due.
And here's how this protest resembles the Wisconsin protests: Not representative of the majority. Smug sanctimonious self-serving crybabies in psychological denial acting out.
You're free to leave Wisconsin anytime you like. You'd be giving up a pretty sweet gig though.
You're free to leave Wisconsin anytime you like. You'd be giving up a pretty sweet gig though.
What has to happen, in your opinion, GM, for protest violence to be defined as a "riot"?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
You're free to leave Wisconsin anytime you like. You'd be giving up a pretty sweet gig though
America Love It or Leave It used to the resoundingly mocked phrase of hard-hatted construction workers, now it’s become the byword of the Progressive cognoscenti… The Times they ARE a ‘changing.
There are also accusations being investigated that Sandusky pimped out some of these boys to wealthy donors of the NAMBLA variety. Again, these are just allegations being investigated.
Having investigated scum like this, the shame is in the lag time. What are the chances this pedophile had child porn on his computer..probably 75%. What are the chances they've been scrubbed..maybe 90%. But, as all you forensic computer geeks out there know...it's really tough to totally delete stuff. My wife did Federal presentence investigations on many pedophile child porn scum and virtually all of them thought they had scrubbed their computers. She had to look @ the stuff and would come home crying. We have both dealt w/ these predators and know if there is a hell..that's where they go.
As Dennis Miller says in one of his riffs, "Listen man..if the compulsion is too much and you can't stop yourself you need to do the right thing..you need to eat your Glock for dinner!"
Of course, I may be just getting hysterical over this stuff.
ST, thanks I guess. 28 is a pretty good road, but it's a hard slog on a bicycle I bet.
When I speak of a bike, I mean a Harley.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Before you know it, Garage and his/her ilk will be talking about, “Outside Agitators” and they’ll be stocking up on axe handles.
"But the Penn State protest instantly went into riot mode, with violence galore."
That's because they're _always_ in riot mode and have been for over ten years.
Cedarford said...
“Homosexuality and pederasty have been linked together for thousands of years. Prominent in many cultures, lauded by many homosexuals who see the boy-man relationships of the Greeks, Arabs, Chinese, Prussians, English as optimal.”
Who is making that link between homosexuality and pedophilia? The American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association consider homosexuality to be a variation of human sexuality while they define pedophilia to be a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.
“Great confusion exists because copy editors found "pedophile priests" optimal headline. But almost all the priests were lifestyle 100% gay men that seduced not children under puberty, but cute gay adolescents they carefully selected.”
The American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association would disagree with this position.
“As with the line "Not ALL Muslims are terrorists"...Not ALL Gays are pederasts and pedophiles. But gays are disproportionately involved. Phrases like "Rent Boy", NAMBLA, "chickenhawk", the man- boy love that "dare not speak its name" part of the culture. Famous pederasts are beloved gay icons. Even spoofed - "Billy, go you like gladiator movies??" "Have you ever seen a naked man?"
How about those cases of female teachers who engage in sexual relations with underage boys? Are they also not pedophiles?
Ann,
Get with it. The story has moved on and your behind the curve.
It seems Sandusky was pimping out the boys to rich PSU donors. And it appears that JoPA knew it and that PSU conspired to keep the story buried.
Maybe you can do a column on thisd angle.
Cheers
This guy was married and had a large family.
How the hell didn't any on them know?
Michel Foucault is an example of a gay man interested in doing children, too, or at least didn't think it should be outlawed. He's the most cited scholar in the humanities now.
P. 30 of The History of Sexuality Part I, is about a child who prostitutes herself for small change in a village in France.
No one cites it much. But it shows a culture that is quite sick, and is quite prevalent on university campuses, including Penn State. It's becoming a kind of norm to accept Foucault as the Second Coming, so that everythign he says is canonical.
Maybe Paterno had read Foucault, and just thought: "What's the big deal?"
No, you're just a fucking idiot, spinelli. Once of the most boneheaded fucking idiots I've ever encountered.
The reason I know so much about child sexual abuse is because my late wife, Myrna, was a child prostitute who was repeatedly raped, tortured and left for dead in the shantytowns of Manila.
I've been asked by the National Women's Museum to write about Myrna's life for their exhibits. Myrna also asked me to write about her life on her death bed.
I know about pedophilia and child sex abuse in its most absurdly horrific forms because I know what my wife went through, and I know how she overcame that past to become a strong, productive and successful woman.
At the time of her death, she was a manager of a training department for one of the largest corporate law firms on the East Coast, and was responsible for six offices in six different cities. She was also my partner in the music business. Myrna's life was a fantastic success story.
Quite a few people helped Myrna in her long journey to the U.S. and to a successful life. I'm proud to say that I was one of them.
My knowledge of the dynamics of childhood sexual abuse includes knowing that just about every predator was once a victim in his or her youth. This is why it is important not to go stark raving mad when allegations surface. Sexual abuse is an endless chain.
It was Myrna who taught me that I should always have compassion for what are called predators, because it is almost certain that they were once victims of sexual abuse.
I also know that childhood sexual abuse is not a death sentence, nor does a victim have to become a jibbering idiot, because Myrna was the most brilliant, toughest and most delightful person I've ever encountered.
I'm not possessed by demons. I'm struggling to write Myrna's story, as she asked me, but as you have demonstrated, idiots tend to fly off the handle over this shit. I'm not sure I want to face that on a larger scale than some fool weblog.
You can read my eulogy for my wife here. I doubt that you are sane or sensible enough to understand a person as unique or brilliant as Myrna. She always look on hysterics like you with complete bewilderment. You are deeply stupid in a way that is probably impossible to cure.
She was determined that her story be told. I really don't know if I'm up to it.
Their business model revolves around selling "news". Unless they are held accountable by the market, they have no incentive to be either objective or impartial. At one time, the journalists were capable of self-moderating behavior; but, as with the rest of our society, the replacement of moral knowledge with totalitarian policies, and their selective enforcement, has left them vulnerable to progress corruption.
Titus, It amazed both myself and my bride that many of these pedophiles are married men and their wives often didn't know. Although, some had a Sgt. Schultz, "I know nothing..I see nothing" mentality. The same holds true, to a lesser extent, w/ fathers/stepfahters who rape their kids.
Denial is something I have never been able to understand except on a very basic level. Maybe because I don't have an ounce of denial in me.
As I've said previously, I pray for you and I have not one doubt Myrna was a wonderful woman. She is w/ God and her pain is gone. Yours continues and is documented well. I told you where myself and bride come from. I just want the scum locked up..and I'll never apologize for that. They can make their peace w/ the Good Lord..I have a Dexter mentality w/ pedophiles..I guess it's just channeling my dark side. We all have a dark side.
Thanks for sharing your personal story. It would have been prudent to do so a few days ago.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Maybe because I don't have an ounce of denial in me
Oh OKKKKAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY then, not an “ounce” news flash: you jumped in that River that is not just in Egypt….”The greatest illusion is that we have No illusions at all.”
One of my buddies has this FB status right at this moment.
One of my coworkers came to me this morning and told me he saw someone raping a ten year old boy at work. In more important news - kick off is in two hours!
And you never know saintshoutingthomas, maybe myself and/or my bride are the "boneheaded fucking idiots" who put a pedophile away that would have killed your daughter or grandaughter. You don't have a clue or obviously any empathy for the people who vacuum the streets of scum so sanctimonious people can be safe.
Now..put it to bed, fellow Christian. As the Dexter episode of this week.."Just let it go."
"Hey Joe..where you goin' w/ that gun in your hand?"
Shouting,
Let us know when you're done telling her story. Sounds fascinating.
I understand that pedophilia is cyclical in nature. But when someone molests a child, they are creating exponentially more victims as time goes on... as their victims (some of them, not all, not even most) go on to become offenders themselves.
My heart breaks for these people... as kids. But once they continue the cycle of abuse themselves, it is pretty hard to be forgiving.
Didn't this blog used to introduce Althouse with "sometimes I write about the law"?
I guess this is one of those times.
---
The PennState story is going to get bigger than they are prepared for.
Wait till they check Sandusky's work computer. And his nonprofit computer. And find little boy porn. And trace his taking little boys to other cities. And more boys come forward. And somebody recalls how his family never left him alone with the grandsons. etc. etc.
He will plead guilty and be sued, along with Penn State, and everyone involved.
The public is already asking why McQueary is still employed, and why he will be coaching this Saturday.
It's the blob that will eat PA.
Dumbass college kids may riot again, blaming the media for being mean to Joe-- but only for Joe.
I wonder whether students will riot when tuition goes up $10,000 per student to off-set the settlements Victims 1-8 + are going to receive.
If the Trustees were smart, they'd be negotiating settlements right now before they're put out of business.
Maybe all child rapists or most were once raped, but not all those kids who were raped will become molesters in turn. It's possible to check yourself, and do something decent, and not just let yourself go. It's also possible to report on people in your midst who are creeps. It's possible to do something. We don't just have to go with the flow, and say, it is what it is.
We can also say, it isn't what it should be.
The rest of Penn State's season should be canceled.
Joe Paterno should be tried as an accessory after the fact. He's not above the law.
RE: The Media
The kids blame it on media, b/c that's all they know to do. We are seeing the results of at least one generation who've been told for the past 18 years that they are not allowed to hit back, fight back, spit back, get mad.
Imagine not knowing how to lay blame or hold people accountable (not even themselves!).
The only enemy they can unite against is nameless,faceless: The Media.
From wikipedia:
"Hebephilia refers to the sexual preference for individuals in the early years of puberty (generally ages 11–14, though onset of puberty may vary). Girls typically begin the process of puberty at age 10 or 11; boys at age 11 or 12
Hebephilia differs from ephebophilia, which refers to the sexual preference for individuals in later adolescence, and from pedophilia, which refers to the sexual preference for prepubescent children.
While individuals with a sexual preference for adults (i.e., teleiophiles) may have some sexual interest in pubescent-aged individuals, the term hebephilia is reserved for those who prefer pubescent-aged individuals over adults.
The public is already asking why McQueary is still employed
He's the critical witness against two former PSU officers and in all the upcoming civil suits against the University. Could he sue them if he were fired now?
You'd think he'd have the decency to quit.
News conference scheduled for 5pm, likely that McQ will be put on administrative leave.
More rioting?
Will game be cancelled due to potential violence and rioting?
Lord.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
He's the critical witness against two former PSU officers and in all the upcoming civil suits against the University. Could he sue them if he were fired now?
You'd think he'd have the decency to quit
JoePa did nothing wrong (legally) and he’s gone, why not this guy, too? Both fulfilled their legal obligations in re: Sandusky, but we let the head coach go, but keep the guy that could have saved at least one 10 year old boy from rape, but instead kept his mouth shut until he called his dad? That’s a puzzlement to me.
I was told McQ's father is a physician. I don't know if that's true.
The question came up: If true, why didn't the physician report what his son told him immediately Friday night? Or encourage his grown-assed son to call the police immediately?
Imagine a world where we just blamed the media for asking these kinds of questions (as if!).
Kirby Olson said...
The football program at Penn State should be canceled for this season.
I'm actually advocating that the NCAA cancel it for 3 years if not permanently. Yank their charter. They do not deserve a $70 million a year football program on the rapes of children by their staff.
Republican, Under mandatory reporting laws if the McQ's old man was a physician he is compelled to report to police, "knowing, or having reason to believe" abuse has occurred or face criminal sanctions.
Methadras, You're a tough cookie for being a SoCaler.
Blogger Methadras said...
Typical Pennsylvania knuckle dragging mongoloid culture. Fucking retards.
11/10/11 11:48 AM
Your excellent grasp of the issues with intelligent insight, adds so much value to the discussion.
So they are protesting to keep the job of someone who allowed a rape to go trought. They deserve the reaction of the police
Why the fuck is McQueary (odd name at that considering) still in a staff position at this school? He witnessed a horrendous crime AND DID NOTHING but run away and tell the co-conspirator Paterno all about it. McQueary should be arrested and charged with criminal negligence of stopping a rape against a child. Fucking chickenshit pussy. If I'd ever seen something like that, I would have killed Sandusky with my bear hands. He's a sub-human piece of shit that deserves a bullet in his fucking skull. Child rapists should be eligible for the death penalty and the SCOTUS said no. After this case, I wonder if those justices feel any or at all comfortable with their decisions.
Republican said...
I was told McQ's father is a physician. I don't know if that's true.
The question came up: If true, why didn't the physician report what his son told him immediately Friday night? Or encourage his grown-assed son to call the police immediately?
Imagine a world where we just blamed the media for asking these kinds of questions (as if!).
Because they are clearly an ass covering family of pussies. That's why.
The instances of abuse are no greater than those in the general populac
The saint john paul no capitalization forbade american mbishop from expelling rapists from the church.he saw it as a campaign against the church by americans. There were according to him more pressing problems: sincretism, gay marriage and the penetration of protestantism in LA.
I was educated as catholic but I left the church after the ignoramus rant against sauvage capitalism
Joe said...
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
He's the critical witness against two former PSU officers and in all the upcoming civil suits against the University. Could he sue them if he were fired now?
You'd think he'd have the decency to quit
JoePa did nothing wrong (legally) and he’s gone, why not this guy, too? Both fulfilled their legal obligations in re: Sandusky, but we let the head coach go, but keep the guy that could have saved at least one 10 year old boy from rape, but instead kept his mouth shut until he called his dad? That’s a puzzlement to me.
They all knew about it. They should all be arrested and tried as conspirators to cover up these crimes. Every fucking one of them.
Goes to show how insulated college campuses are.
This was nothing more than another example of institutional indoctrination.
The free exchange of ideas..
Ralph L, It should be horribly apparent to all by now "decency" wasn't a priority of the PSU football program.."Just win baby."
Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe describes this as a cult w/ joepa being the cult leader. He nailed it.
Much more to come if Mike Madden is right. And much worse. Impossible you say?
ndspinnelli: Thanks for the info. That's what my source speculated too.
Father McQ should have reported.
Breaking news on Drudge (RUMOR status):
Jerry Sandusky Rumored to Have Been 'Pimping Out Young Boys to Rich Donors,' Says Mark Madden
----
As I said, the authorities will be looking at why he was traveling out of state with little boys.
Tip.of.the.iceberg.
Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno, registered Republicans.
Oh boy.
This is what the cowards at the NCAA said today:
Regarding the ongoing Penn State criminal investigation, the NCAA is actively monitoring developments and assessing appropriate steps moving forward. The NCAA will defer in the immediate term to law enforcement officials since this situation involved alleged crimes. As the facts are established through the justice system, we will determine whether Association bylaws have been violated and act accordingly. To be clear, civil and criminal law will always take precedence over Association rules.
Mark Emmert
President, NCAA
This is what I wrote to President Mark Emmert of the NCAA today:
President Mark Emmert,
In light of the horrific sexual rape allegation scandal(s) that are being uncovered at Pennsylvania State and has now encompassed its football program. It is incumbent upon the NCAA to act accordingly in light of these allegations by immediately pulling the football programs charter from the NCAA immediately until these issues are resolved. In fact, in light of the ongoing crimes against children within the school itself and within the football program based on those executives with the program who knew of Mr. Sandusky’s actions and took no action, I believe it is even doubly more incumbent upon the NCAA to pull the football program charter from Pennsylvania State permanently.
Penn. States football program is a $70 million a year program and while these crimes where being committed and clearly covered up, the NCAA will now have the smear of impropriety upon its name as well if it does not act against Penn. State and sanction the football program. If the NCAA chooses to remain silent and on the sidelines and not act against Penn. State football, then there will be a drive to begin to disenfranchise the NCAA as a legitimate collegiate sports body that claims to uphold the highest standards of collegiate athletic propriety, honesty, and integrity.
Tim said...
Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno, registered Republicans.
Oh boy.
Steve Kornacki is a morally equivocating dickbag.
then there will be a drive to begin to disenfranchise the NCAA as a legitimate collegiate sports body that claims to uphold the highest standards of collegiate athletic propriety, honesty, and integrity.
Claims being the operative word.
I would like to think that the wish to sexually abuse children is relatively rare. But apparently there is a widespread desire to cover up or deny the guilt of those so guilty. It's not just the Catholic Church and the Penn State athletic department. Look at all those who deny the guilt of Roman Polanski or Daniel Ortega. These two men are primary offenders. They have received far less opprobium than Joe Paterno whose role was secondary.....If someone you knew and loved was guilty of such monstrosity, would you turn them in? Would it be such an easy decision? I don't claim that it's the right thing to cover up for such monsters, but the demonstrable fact is that the more common reaction is denial rather than dime dropping.
ndspinelli, no worries about the Irish jokes. After all, they're never ones to turn down a shot of anything, eh? Plus it sounds like you're much more Irish than I am.
As far as Penn State and the NCAA, I imagine no matter what officially may happen, the program is pretty much over for the foreseeable future. Who would go there? Current Penn State. players are going to be the receivers of very vicious mocking. In one fell swoop, the whole reputation is absolutely tarnished. And it deserves it. That Penn State students are rioting in support of molesting children (which is what they are doing) only adds to the shame of being a student or alumni there.
Hooray for our society that when news like this becomes public we are absolutely in favor of shaming and reviling all involved.
William, Ted Kaczinski's brother turned him in and never received the respect he should have for doing that incredibly selfless act.
William, There are too many people out there willing to excuse. Oh..Ted was abused as a kid and this is just a vicious cycle. For every person who had a horrible childhood and continues the cycle there are exponentially more who say "basta".."enough" and live decent lives. We should celebrate those who make the tough choices and lock up the bastards who make the bad ones. It's not really very fucking complicated.
wv: procon..spooky
Amen PaddyO, But not all revile pedophiles. Some people alibi for them. But thankfully they're a repugnant minority.
And, in the repugnant category..I am certain rival schools are already using this as a recruiting advantage. "Do you want your son to go to Butt Fuck You?"
These are crimes that occurred in the shadows, in late night trips to the shower, in secret meetings at the coach's house and in cryptic conversations with university officials. The media reports changed all that. It is the media who focused the spotlight on what was hidden. The students channeled their anger at the media in a classic shooting the messenger reaction. Everything was so wonderful at Penn State until the media told everybody about these terrible things that happened. And coming around filming and asking questions and putting everybody under scrutiny. The truth is a terrible burden sometimes. It's partly why the whole thing got covered up to begin with.
William said...
If someone you knew and loved was guilty of such monstrosity, would you turn them in? Would it be such an easy decision?
You bet I would. What the fuck is wrong with people who don't? It answers itself. If you knowingly or willingly hide the crimes of such an abhorrent nature then I'd say you are just as guilty. There is no room for this in society. None. To answer is clearly obvious.
Let me be clear: I am not taking a position in favor of child rape or covering up for child rapists. I am only saying that the cover up or denial of such crimes is far more common than their disclosure. Noah's children covered up more than his nakedness. From day one, it has been a primal part of of our culture. It is not restricted to Catholic prelates, Hollywood stars, sports mad jocks, leftist radicals, and heirs to great fortunes ( to make just an incomplete list of known child rapist enablers)....I don't have any immediate knowledge of child rapists, but here's a story from my adolesence. When I was in the service and nineteen years old, I was invited to have a few drinks with an NCO in his quonset hut. We had a few drinks. He put his hand on my thigh and moved it towards my groin. I got up immediately and said I had to leave. I was not at fault and nothing happened, but I was ashamed of myself for what happened. I didn't report the incident or, for that matter, even tell anyone what happened. I presume that over the years he invited other young men to his lair. Perhaps he got some of them drunker and had better luck.
You bet I would. What the fuck is wrong with people who don't? It answers itself. If you knowingly or willingly hide the crimes of such an abhorrent nature then I'd say you are just as guilty. There is no room for this in society. None. To answer is clearly obvious.
Good for you. I've never had knowledge of sex abuse, but have of other abuse, and reported it. I once reported the license plate of a car at a shopping center in which a woman was vigorously spanking a baby.
While in graduate school, I lived in a married student apartment complex and my oldest daughter was 11-12 years old. One of her girlfriends who happened to be an excellent tennis player, came over one day and began complaining about how bad her father treated her, threatened to pour boiling water on her face, etc.
I thought I knew her father pretty well. We had played basketball together for several years. But, we called protective services anyway. It turned out the situation was so bad that all parental rights were terminated and the girl ended up being adopted by the tennis coach at the state university in town. (That's where the tennis ties in.)
You never know for sure. If you suspect, report.
DADvocate said...
You never know for sure. If you suspect, report.
And if you see, act.
"We Are Penn State"
Then, shame on you!
I remember the shower scene from "Psycho". Today's generation will remember the shower scene from Penn State.
The reason "the media" is getting blamed is because "the media" is at fault.
For generations, "the media" has spoken with one voice. The voice of the left. Then with the advent of talk radio, and the bloggosphere other voices came to be heard. And people were tuned into the fact that "the media" had been not reporting the news quit as unbiased as the would like you to believe.
So the people started to just listen and read their own favorite outlets. And who doesn't like to hear their beliefs echoed by others. Me becomes we, and we is a family, a tribe, a herd.
Ask a cowboy how easy it is to stampede a herd.
One dissonance to a herds mental well being will cause a chain reaction. Hormones flow, fight or flight instincts kick in, and pandemonium ensues.
By delivering the "bad news" of Paternos forced retirement, "the media" disassociated itself from the herd, and if you're not of the herd, you must be an enemy of the herd.
Individuals are smart, herds are not. That's why in a crisis situation people do inexplicable stuff. By being unpredictable, there is some assurance that some of the herd will survive any calamity. Not always, but often enough.
To sum up, because "the media" lost the trust of its consumers to report accurately, and fairly, the news, "the media" has become "them" in our minds. Even if you agree 100% with CNN,CBS, the NYT, and PBS, or Fox, and the WSJ, you KNOW in your sub-conscience that they do not tell the truth, wholly and unabridged to you, so they will always remain "them", and as "them", enemies.
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