November 8, 2011
"Joe Frazier... the better fighter. And the better man."
Dave Anderson says Joe Frazier, who died last night, was better than Muhammad Ali.
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29 comments:
Better man yes. Better boxer no.
But can you grill steaks in 0 minutes in the counter top Joe Frazier?
And would a Smoking Joe sell as an indoor grilling machine?
The Thrilla in Manilla was probably the best sporting even I've ever seen in my life. The only reason I use the word "probably" is that I wonder how many brain cells Ali sacrificed for my pleasure. The courage and fortitude of both men was nothing short of amazing. You can make an argument for either man as the best fighter of my lifetime.
We all evolve or devolve, as it were. I was liberal in college and watched all the fights between these 2 great boxers. Being liberal, I was an Ali guy. But being blue collar and ethnic, I couldn't dislike Joe. He was a fucking warrior. He worked and worked, and just kept coming, no matter what you threw @ him.
As I've gotten older I've learned much more about these 2 guys. Ali was hateful to Joe. And Joe helped Ali when nobody else did, when Ali was banned from boxing. By the time of the Thriller in Manila[HBO doc by same name is a must see] I had soured on Ali. Calling a great opponent an "Uncle Tom" and "stupid gorilla" which Ali did, is beyond the pale. Dave Anderson is a Pulitzer Prize winner and one of the best sportswriters ever.
Thanks for honoring Joe, professor. It means a lot to me.
No George Forman won.
BOB R, I agree about The Thrilla and about both being great boxers. The first fight and the Thrilla were wars. They were of course hyped by Ali and his sycophants. But, these were two great boxers who really hated each other..particularly by the Thrilla and they nearly fought to the death. Football, hockey players are tough. Boxers are in a much elevated category..they're truly warriors. Joe was a noble one.
Here's an article by Daniel PIpes listing--and it is a long list--of Ali's wretched behavior over the years.
LBJ's lovely little war stole the best years of Ali's career, yet he remained steadfastly true to his beliefs. Now, who was the better man?
No one really thinks Frazier was a better boxer.
You know, I like Frazier and he was a great fighter.
The Times (undoubtedly white) writer who wants to chortle over a bit of black racial retribution against some southern Cracker can go fuck himself.
That shit is pretty fucking old.
I don't give a shit any more about blacks desire for racial revenge.
ShoutingThomas, You really are not very bright. I'm fairly new to this blogging stuff. But, it's my profession to be able to read people. It's tough to do w/o actually seeing the person and reading their body language. However, in your case that's not needed. Get some professional help.
nspinelli,
Kiss my ass.
Can I make myself any clearer, idiot?
Go fuck yourself.
spinelli: explain why liberals went for Ali?
I loved to watch Frazier fight. Didn't much like Ali .... mostly due to his politics. He was the better fighter. Frazier was fearless. Used to lead with his head.
My most vivid memory of Frazier was when his son Marvin(?) was fighting and was getting pummeled. Joe, at ringside, threw in the towel ...as any father would.
spinelli: explain why liberals went for Ali?
Ali was anti-Vietnam war. A lib position. At least when Nixon was president.
For a sober perspective on the two fighters, read Mark Kram's "Ghosts of Manila."
Frazier was a thoroughly decent and classy guy; Ali, not so much (...but who would dare say?)
Anybody who lived in the Philadelphia area got to know Joe Frazier.
He was a good guy. Genuinely sad to hear he's gone.
Rick, You explained it in your question. Ali represented anti-establishment..antiwar. Joe respresented blue collar..the folks going to Vietnam to fight.
Interestingly, the allegedly "stupid" Frazier respected Ali's religious objection. Joe was a Baptist and said if the Baptist religion said not to fight then he would obey that.
Ndspinelli ... yeah, I was answering the question posed to you.
Frazier was hilarious when he was on Stern.
Funny calls he made to businesses.
I love Stern.
Ali was a great, great boxer. He had maybe the greatest jab, footwork, and speed of any heavyweight ever. He was also an asshole. He was also a great man.
I've often wondered if the disease that Ali suffers from is a result of Frazier's punches.
Frazier was a better man than Ali.
Frazier could get inside where Ali's jab was ineffective.
Ali could stay outside of Foreman's power.
Foreman could badly hurt Frazier with his superior power and easily push Frazier away because he was much bigger and stronger than Frazier.
MMA is making boxing irrelevant. I used to be a big boxing fan but MMA is much more interesting. Much more lethal and technical, more of a thinking man's sport. At any weight , put the top MMA fighter vs the top boxer and the MMA fighter will defeat the boxer very rapidly (most likely in less than one round).
I agree that Frazier is the far better man, but Ali is the legend. Napoleon vs Wellington, Achilles vs Hector: the ink goes to the legend......Observation about Joe Louis: he never defended his title against any of the black heavyweights until late in his career. Jack Johnson never. It wasn't just whites who discriminated against talented blacks.
Frazier goes up,
Frazier goes up,
Frazier goes up.
Paul, The parody should be in a Cosell nasal voice, "Up goes Frazier, Up goes Frazier!"
Steve Koch said...
MMA is making boxing irrelevant. I used to be a big boxing fan but MMA is much more interesting. Much more lethal and technical, more of a thinking man's sport. At any weight , put the top MMA fighter vs the top boxer and the MMA fighter will defeat the boxer very rapidly (most likely in less than one round).
==================
A stupid analogy. Different sports.
Manny Pacquio would take down Tiger Woods within 20 seconds in a ring.
An Olympic rapid pistol shooter would take down any MMA fighter of any size within 2 seconds.
ndspinelli - Like your posts on this matter!
Frazier was a decent working man, never pretended to be any more than that. His treatment by Ali was disgraceful after he not only defended Ali during his ban from boxing, but lost large amounts of money from endorsements he LOST as boxing champ for weighing into the Ali controversy.
Up goes Joe Frazier, up! Indeed. Frazier lived a pretty commendable life.
Frazier was the better man, who knows who was the better boxer. The score is 1-1.
If you read Ali's interviews in the 70s you'll see he was a black nationalist with views like Louis Farakan.
But the Liberals loved him because he was against Whitey and the War.
Alinsky's rules.
re: edutcher's comment - yes, when i lived in phila. in the 1980's i often drove by frazier's gym on n. broad st. i was told he lived (at least for a while) in a one-bedroom apt. above the gym. hard neighborhood to say the least... cf. paul simon's song "The Boxer" immortalized by dylan....Ali was not a "liberal" but quite radical, and gave up his championship and his life as it then was for his beliefs. i realize that most comments on this blog are conservative; that's ok. nevertheless, Ali's refusal to be inducted was admired by those of us who did not support the war in Vietnam.
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