In her statement to the press, Bialek said that she had been fired at the association after about a year working for the group’s educational foundation in its Chicago office. She said she sought Mr. Cain’s help to find other employment during a trip to Washington about a month after he left the group.And now we have specific details alleged.
During that trip, she said Mr. Cain had secretly upgraded her hotel room before drinks and dinner that the two had to discuss possible future employment. She said that after dinner, he put his hand on her leg and ran it under her skirt and pulled her head toward his crotch.
“I was surprised and shocked and I said, what are you doing? You know I have a boyfriend,” Ms. Bialek recalled saying. “This is not what I came here for.”
“You want a job, right?” she said Mr. Cain responded. “I asked him to stop and he did.”
ADDED: 459 comments! Good lord! Well, I haven't read them. I don't know what issues you've raised, but I want to assert, firmly, that I have never been inconsistent on the subject of these allegations about Herman Cain. My posts have always been about journalistic ethics and questions of proof and fairness.
In addition, I have been consistent about sexual harassment since long before I began this blog, going back to the Clarence Thomas hearings and through the entire Bill Clinton fiasco. I have not been politically partisan, and I have not sacrificed principles of fairness and due process. If you think I have, I challenge you to challenge me.
Posts
647 comments:
1 – 200 of 647 Newer› Newest»Geez. Getting work in Washington sure was tough back in 1999.
Awesome. Specific details are da bomb. Now how about proof?
Even better, we have specific allegations that, if true, would actually constitute sexual harassment of the type that is wrong, and should be punished.
Now, how do we go about determining if they are true, or false?
But did he violate the "one-grope" rule? I don't think he did.
Well, I am glad of that much. But, how is this sexual harassment? They weren't working together at the time.
Assuming that it's true, it's pretty boring stuff.
Well now.
As much as he might want, try as he may, Cain now can no longer pursue the response of "I've said what I said. I'm done. Shut up and go away."
He can no longer pursue the Obamaesque strategy of thinking himself above having to answer. Will he now pursue the Clintonesque strategy of "nuts and sluts"?
The issue is now joined, and it no longer has the aroma of a "high-tech lynching." Either he admits or he calls this woman a liar and engages to destroy her.
We are now seeing the thing we saw with Clinton, but never with Thomas.
A pattern of behavior.
Meanwhile, the rest of us can now play the Clintonesque sycophant, defending Cain to the hilt no matter what, regardless of what is said.
Me? I refuse to be a Paul Begala.
Her story had the ring of truth to it. May not be classic sexual harassment, but I won't support him now.
No proof, and no matter what the affidavits say, it was 13 years ago. So any critical thinker would discount it, especially when Allred is involved. All you need to know about the media is right in front of you. Obama is involved in 2 major scandals-- not a word about that. Obama is ineligible, and the media has been running cover for him since day one.
I'm sorry. This is all just too EASY. Like any prospective employer would say baldly, after indicating fellatio was necessary for employment, "You wanna job, doncha?"
And she's a Tea Partier?
Uh uh. Don't think so.
May not be classic sexual harassment . . .
____________
No. Putting your hand up another's leg and pulling her head to your crotch is not sexual harassment -- it is sexual assault.
How does Gloria Allred hook up with these people, I wonder? I mean, do people just call her (and she has some sort of screener that screens out the nuts, I mean, screens out the boring ones), or does she advertise for this sort of thing in some way, or does she somehow come to them?
Most of the people she's "representing" are in no way involved in legal disputes (like this woman, who, even if she wanted to make a charge, has long lost her chance). Is Ms. Alred even a real lawyer? Who pays for her services? (is she ginning up book sales or speaking fees, maybe?)
(I'm honestly not trying to attack Ms. Alred, I simply find her existance strange and mysterious.)
I've been asking for evidence. I thinks this constitutes evidence. Sexual harassment? No. Bad behavior? Almost certainly. It showed a bad character in Clinton, and, as much as it pains me to say this, I think it shows a bad character in Cain.
Even if not it's not sexual harassment it reveals his propensity to misuse his power among those he considers to be ripe for the picking, in that they are seeking his help. He expects special favors, in return. This is a serious character flaw. Not fit to occupy the highest office in the land.
IF true.
I wonder if they still have Cain's expense reports from back then? They could include the dinner and hotel receipts.
Of course, the records may be stored safely away with Prez Obama's college transcripts.
Bialeck....really By-A-Lick?
Tyrone said:
"I've been asking for evidence. I thinks this constitutes evidence. Sexual harassment? No. Bad behavior? Almost certainly. It showed a bad character in Clinton, and, as much as it pains me to say this, I think it shows a bad character in Cain."
Hard to disagree with Tyrone here.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Rush Limbaugh told me to hate this woman, this dreg of humanity, he told me to think she was a NUT, a SLUT and a racist! And because Rush told me to think it, it’s what I think….
wait, so this was at dinner that he is said to have done this, including the head pull? or did they go back to his or her room?
At a certain point, if the public comes to believe in the credibility of the accusers - it begins to hurt the credibility of other Republicans - who are unfortunately lumped in by association. Especially any that decide to defend Cain without knowing the real scoop.
Cain also suffers from a lack of a real organization and damage control people that better campaigns have to deal with this sort of thing. The guy was a motivational speaker and former fast food executive that ran for President to get free publicity to sell books and expand his talk show market.(Along the way he got a black man's pass like Sharpton, Obama, and Jesse Jackson got for black skin making up for lack of qualifications. Or the one evangelicals gave so they could run the unqualified and crazy Alan Keyes. Both the right and the Left assign some moral superiority to any black preacher..)
He is in over his head and lacks the people to stem the sex charge fallout. It will be painful, be he innocent or guilty. But it is in the Republican's interest to put this dark cloud in the rear view mirror ASAP for the Party's sake.
It was in a car.
Remember folks, this isn't a legal exercise, despite the lawyers. It's a political exercise. The question is about legal action, it's about the political character. Are you comfortable voting for x knowing y?
One accuser could be a nut. Two? Perhaps a nut and a copycat. Three? Four? More? As Bender points out, sooner or later the man has to come up with a better explanation.
Some men are pigs. Most are not. It appears he's a pig, but I don't know that..yet.
Allred is one of the most contemptible Democratic Party character assassins on the scene.
The appearance of Allred has convinced me that this is a racist attempt to picture Cain as a black man who can't control him.
Seriously, a rich black guy who's charming and national prominent? He could fuck ten willing white girls a day and never run out of volunteers.
This is bullshit. Allred is as lowlife as you can get and still be practicing law.
So it's another he said/she said bullshit. Why do the left automatically believe the woman?
This is evidence?? Come on already. This seems more akin to an Allred publicity stunt to me. When you have Allred summing up the allegations as (paraphrasing): he tried to give her his own form of stimulus package, I mean, give me a break.
I"m no Cain supporter, but these accusations just seem too perfect. Like tea party at perrysburg said, who says "you want the job doncha" after getting turned down? Those are lines from a bad porno. Then we have 2 men, one being her boyfriend at the time, who are completely uninterested in what actually happened when she said Cain was "sexually inappropriate." Bullsh*t. Then we have her poetic political commentary to boot.
There is something really wrong about this.
Now we have 'details' - but these are NOT the details that have any backing, as in the ones that resulted in go-away money.
She could be a well-paid actress, for all we know at this point.
Imagine how easy it is going to be to destroy any candidate from now on - just allege.
C'mon, Gloria ALLRED????
Uh, she was asking him to help her find a new job, right?
He makes a pass (he is married at the time, correct?).
That may be a lot of things, but it's not sexual harassment.
You wanna say it's inappropriate behavior for a married man?
It is, but he wasn't taking advantage of her in the sense of forcing her to do something she didn't want to do, but felt obliged to because of his position relative to her.
lyssalovelyredhead said...
How does Gloria Allred hook up with these people, I wonder? I mean, do people just call her (and she has some sort of screener that screens out the nuts, I mean, screens out the boring ones), or does she advertise for this sort of thing in some way, or does she somehow come to them?
She seems to go hunting for them.
And her credibility is somewhere on the minus scale. A lot of her "clients" end up being shown to have great gaping holes in their stories.
As to this one, we shall see.
Shouting Thomas reveals again what he sees in his dank, smelly & warped chrystal ball.
Sharon Bialek: “Just admit what you did. Admit you were inappropriate to people, and then move forward.” Uh - why? Did Bill ever admit that about Gennifer Flowers? Why does this make a difference? I mean - the precedent was set already. Tell you what - elect Cain and then the Democrats can try to impeach him. Achieve closure...
Tyrone - explain how a claim is evidence. In a rape case, you actually need evidence froma rape kit at a bare minimum or witnesses.
We have an accuser, but we still don't have any evidence.
Isn't harassment a pattern over time? This is a single event that happened 14 years ago.
Cain's response--
Just as the country finally begins to refocus on our crippling $15 trillion national debt and the unacceptably high unemployment rate, now activist celebrity lawyer Gloria Allred is bringing forth more false accusations against the character of Republican front-runner Herman Cain.
All allegations of harassment against Mr. Cain are completely false. Mr. Cain has never harassed anyone. Fortunately the American people will not allow Mr. Cain’s bold “9-9-9 Plan”, clear foreign policy vision and plans for energy independence to be overshadowed by these bogus attacks.
_________
Reading the Cain camp's response -- it is entirely in the spirit of the Clinton machine. Attack, attack, blanket denial, attack, attack, and including this key phrase direct from the Democrat handbook on sex scandals, "the American people will not allow . . ."
So when Romney becomes the front-runner will we see a flood of woman making the same thigh-groping claims? Maybe we on the right have to arrange the same thing against Obama.
"This is a serious character flaw. Not fit to occupy the highest office in the land."
Two words: Bill Clinton.
We're going to have a lot of idiot comments on this one.
Here... I'll give you something to chew on.
Jungle fever is a fact. I know (and have worked with) a couple of successful black blues musicians.
They both have more volunteer white girls struck with Jungle Fever than they know what to do with. In each case, the live completely rent free on the road, sleeping in a different blond white girl's bed on every step on the tour. I call it the "blond bed and breakfast tour."
Cain is even more desirable. He's rich, urbane and he's got a lot of goodies to hand out.
This white women is a liar. Cain doesn't need to sexually harass white women. He's got more white pussy fighting to sleep with him than he can possibly service.
Allred is a contemptible twat.
Now, the rest of you... go ahead with your tour of fantasy land.
Bender - if I were being attacked with lies, I'd respond with an even bigger attack. I'd go nuclear. You must be some fucking pussy.
Doesn't he need to immediately file a defamation suit?
This is evidence??
Yeah, it is. It's called testimony. It is the kind of evidence that makes up 90 percent of trials. It is the kind of evidence that people go to jail for. Unrebutted, it is sufficient evidence to prove the case.
So he sexually assualts her in a car and she doesn't report it to the police?
Give me a break!
Also, the fact that Gloria Alred is her lawyer makes me inclined to believe she's an outright liar.
This might be verifiable since other people were involved in switching the hotel rooms and might remember.
If it happened, of course, but if no one remembers it still does not prove it did not happen.
But why get Gloria Allred for a lawyer, except that this is her kind of thing?
Yeah, it is. It's called testimony. It is the kind of evidence that makes up 90 percent of trials. It is the kind of evidence that people go to jail for. Unrebutted, it is sufficient evidence to prove the case.
If that's how the American justice system works - then heaven help us.
Unsupported allegations.
Unfunded mandates.
Sounds about right for DC.
wv - explity
Bender said...
This is evidence??
Yeah, it is. It's called testimony.
No it's not...what you heard was hearsay.
Sorry, Cain defenders, but defamation suit or it didn't not happen.
I wonder for you lefties who say "testimony is evidence", if it were Obama being accused would you be so lenient on the accuser? Nah, Media Matters would be ripping the woman to shreds and you'd be cheering it on.
He needs his wife to become more visible very quickly.
I remember when Schwarzenegger was accused of this kind of behavior, having Maria out there to talk for him, bat these accusations away, that helped a lot. Same with Hillary and Bill early on.
That Mrs. Cain remains in the background, even though her reasons may have nothing to do with any of this, it just doesn't help him.
And, by the by, isn't Allred's name a Dickensian masterpiece?
Can you think of a better name for this piece of shit Democratic Party character assassin and media hound?
All red, indeed.
Is it wrong that my first thought was 'yay details'?
So let me get this straight. He wasn't her boss at the time. She went to dinner with him. Then he hit on her. He sounds like he was overly physical for a public place (if that is true) but aside from that? He's a guy hitting on a woman who didn't work for him. What about that constitutes sexual harrassment?
During that trip, she said Mr. Cain had secretly upgraded her hotel room before drinks and dinner that the two had to discuss possible future employment.
So, how did he 'secretly' upgrade her hotel room. Is she saying he paid for it? Is there something wrong with upgrading someone's hotel room? This part is totally confusing. If someone 'secretly' upgraded my hotel room or my plane ticket to first class I sure wouldn't be complaining.
Sorry, Cain defenders, but defamation suit or it didn't not happen.
So Meadehouse is firmly in the camp that "allegation means guilty and off to the execution".
Look, I am under no obligation to automatically defend this guy simply because he is a Republican, and especially defend him using Democrat arguments.
I wouldn't automatically defend him if his name were Bill Clinton or John Edwards, and I'm not going to automatically defend him merely because his name is Herman Cain. I hold him to the same standard I held those two creeps, especially since he is just as abrasive, with the same rules-don't-apply, entitled attitude, as they were.
A public figure, particularly one in the national political limelight, cannot possibly win a defamation lawsuit.
Couple of things to keep in mind before calling this the smoking gun. As I understand this, and details are still being released so keep that in mind when reading.
This is not one of the original women Politico was talking about two weeks ago. This is a new accusation. The story here is that Bialek had already been dismissed from the NRA. There is no settlement as supporting data. It is completely 'she says, he says' at this point.
The Cain camp is calling this a fable. They aren't equivocating. They are flatly denying this - basically calling her a liar. They are not laying the ground for a 'misunderstanding', nor a mea culpa, in any attempt to recover. Their position makes this game over for Cain if there is anything whatsoever to substantiate her claim. Leads me to believe there isn't and won't be.
I find her story a long way from credible at this point. That could change, but at the moment, it's tabloid. I find it also less than credible with Gloria Alread in the picture.
"After dinner" in her hotel room? In that case I suppose I could understand some mixed signals. But otherwise, pretty skeevy for sure.
A public figure, particularly one in the national political limelight, cannot possibly win a defamation lawsuit.
Exactly the whole point would be to bog down the Cain campaign in an endless defamation suit and render him irrelevant as a POTUS candidate. This was ordered straight from the White House, I guarantee it. He was afraid of Cain.
Obama put the hit out on Cain.
Or, I should say, defamation suit or it theoretically probably didn't not happen.
Every last one of these women have been bought and paid for by Obama slush-fund.
I've been asking for evidence. I thinks this constitutes evidence. Sexual harassment? No. Bad behavior? Almost certainly. It showed a bad character in Clinton, and, as much as it pains me to say this, I think it shows a bad character in Cain.
If it's true, and I think, at this point, it's best to withhold judgment (whoever mentioned the travel records- I would like to see them as well) on that, but if it does wind up being true, I agree.
Not a dealbreaker when compared to Obama, but it would be for my vote, for the primary. I do hope that it's not true.
- Lyssa
lyssalovelyredhead said...
Well, I am glad of that much. But, how is this sexual harassment? They weren't working together at the time.
Assuming that it's true, it's pretty boring stuff.
==================
lyssa, I understand you think Herman is dreamy and have written how you want to get active to help elect him...but this is classic casting couch stuff. If her story is true. Powerful man pulling the dinner and a nice hotel suite he paid for gambit...as he puts the moves on a job seeker. Put out, and I may well get you a nice job from your cooperation. And not telling my wife...
It's tough to masquerade as the morally superior black man the progressive Jewish media has pushed as one of their prime narratives since the 60s. Especially a self-proclaimed "family values man" like Cain or MLK chasing down the punanny.
MLK got away with his drugs, booze, and prostitutes orgies because he lived long ago, in an era when JFK and LBJ (he had 3 mistresses, 2 black, one white) got away with it. People knew, it was documented in MLK's FBI file, but it was better to let MLK know that Jack, Bobby, and Lyndon all knew so Martin was at least managable. And on his Martyrdom, Saint Martin's backers sealed those files by court order for 45 years.
Cain lives in a different time.
Even horndog Bubba got in serious trouble for his trysts - saved only by his wifes hysterical and venomous actions defending him against the "bimbo eruptions", (In a nutshell, all means necessary was employed by Hillary - because if Bill lost power, Hillary lost power and lawyer influence) By feminists falling on their swords after Tower, Clarence Thomas, Packwood, and several CEO trophy heads - calling for a "one grope" allowed rule. And all but openly saying Bill was too important to the Feminist, progressive Jewish, and liberal Democrat Causes and the pro-abortion cause to treat like a Republican.
Yeah, it is. It's called testimony.
Well, no. It is called "a press conference".
Testimony is when you say it under oath.
"No it's not...what you heard was hearsay."
"I wonder for you lefties who say 'testimony is evidence'"
___________
You guys learned your law from watching Law and Order, The Practice, and Ally McBeal, didn't you?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
A public figure, particularly one in the national political limelight, cannot possibly win a defamation lawsuit
Yeah IF you can prove she’s lying, the damages will be obvious….
Meade - are you that naive? Cain would never be facing these "bimbo eruptions" if he weren't a threat to Obama and you know it. Stop playing the dupe. Our precious Republic is at stake and we have no time to be playing your psuedo-legalistic games.
"Sorry, Cain defenders, but defamation suit or it didn't not happen."
No. That is not the answer, and faulty.
You deny the possibility that this man simply is innocent of the allegations and doesn't want to roll in the mud, IF he does not sue for defamation.
Just because you have grounds, doesn't necessarily mean you should.
wv - liker
This is probably going to sink Cain. If it's true, I don't think that's wrong. But, meanwhile, the Dems will continue to hold former President Clinton up as a hero, and will continue to get away with it. That sickens me.
- Lyssa
Or, I should say, defamation suit or it theoretically probably didn't not happen.
If this is a he-said she-said situation (and it appears to be, since Bialek doesn't claim there were any witnesses) then Cain will lose the defamation suit simply because he can't prove she's lying.
So suing her would be all downside for him; he can't win, and it'll keep the accusations in the headlines. So guilty or not, the smart choice is not to sue.
Between the time I read the comments and getting my first comment posted, a few other people have picked up on the Alread angle.
Don't know how this is going to fall out and if there is anything to it I agree that it establishes a pattern of behavior that should halt Cain in his tracks.
But at this point, this smells.
When in doubt, whip it out!
Time to get rid of all sexual harassment laws.
This shit is a farce.
There is no such thing as sexual harassment.
Big girls know how to handle themselves in the public arena. If they don't, they should get the hell out.
AND it can be very difficult to prove that you didn't do something that someone alleges.
An alibi after 14 years or so would be shaky as well.
This is all by design. Choreographed by dem operatives, and well-financed ones.
It looks to me (assuming it is true) that he made a pass at her, she demurred, he backed off. Is THAT a crime now? At this point in my life, I'd consider it a compliment.
Really, it's time to stop this shit in its tracks.
OK, so we all admit women are too weak and too delicate to function in the public arena.
Get them the hell out.
Or else, get rid of the sexual harassment laws and let them fend for themselves.
If Cain would have had a cigar in his hand when he ran it under her skirt it wouldn't have been that big of a deal.
It looks to me (assuming it is true) that he made a pass at her, she demurred, he backed off. Is THAT a crime now? At this point in my life, I'd consider it a compliment.
You are missing the point. This woman and the others are all paid-off using Obama slush-fund money to derail the dangerous Cain. Always look at the bigger picture. These women would not be going after Cain of their own volition.
The missing Details surface.
Note that she is a Chicago blonde, where the blonde women are as sexually experienced and alert as anywhere on earth. Half of the economy of Chicago is based upon providing feasts of great food and hot sex with available blondes for the midwestern smalltown guys visiting the ChiTown.
She says she was umemployed, but her boy friend ( the one who gets it for free) directs her to go to DC and hit up Cain, and he even rents her a hotel room, which she tells Herman about when she sets their date at the hotel lobby bar.
Herman calls a friend in the hotel hospitality Industry who comps her a room upgrade. This is SOP favor done in Hospitality, like travel passes for airline personnel.
Herman takes her to dinner and then drives around DC until she is surprised that Herman acts like a heterosexual male. She supposedly says no to his advances, not the other way around, and nothing happens...no clothes off, no back seat, no going to a room... nothing, except two people, two minutes and no witnesses.
The Affidavits she has say she was angry at Herman and told two men in her life about her encounter with the powerful Herman Cain who made a move on her. But no she made no mention to them of an assault...why not.
She was only bragging to the two affiants 14 years ago.
We will never be able to end this either way, not that it really matters.
Gloria Allred is nastly old Democratic party hackowhorus. She pimped out an illegal alien maid 2008 which probably cost Meg Whitman the Cali governorship. (Ok, who am i kidding, Whitman was never going to win but it was a hack job.) Now she's pimping out another shady lady in order to defeat a Republican. The mere fact that this lady hired Gloria Allred already diminishes her credibility. Also, if it happened and was sooooooo horrible, why not file a complaint? Why wait until the guy's running for President? Further credibility diminution. Also, if it happened, say no and be done with it. It's easy. God, I hate Gloria Allred.
The fact that this woman came forward with these allegations is no small thing. That alone tells me that there could be something to the allegations.
She has to know she will be pilloried by every right winger out there. They will turn her life upside down.
And to Shouting Thomas, sorry dude but there is such a thing as sexual harrassment. If you think not go try and stick your hand up a girls skirt during an interview and see what happens. If she doesn't break your hand she'll break your future and maybe your bank. And she would have that right.
Traditionalguy said
"We will never be able to end this either way, not that it really matters."
And that IS the point for the dems.
Mission accomplished.
No burden of proof.
Allegations and bullshit. Welcome to the modern world.
Even better, we have specific allegations that, if true, would actually constitute sexual harassment of the type that is wrong, and should be punished.
Uh, no. She had already been fired. He had already quit. They weren't co-workers. He makes a move. She turns him down. He accepts that. That's not sex harassment. Even if they were at work, I think that's a fairly bogus (although typical) claim of sex harassment.
What's going to get Cain in trouble with Republicans is the idea that he's cheating on his wife. I don't like that, actually.
I know adultery does not equal bad President. Nonetheless it's a character flaw. Now I worry about his honesty and his integrity. The people who are glib on adultery are usually the same people who are glib on abortion. Which, come to think of it, Cain is pretty glib on that, too.
She has to know she will be pilloried by every right winger out there. They will turn her life upside down.
I want to subpoena her back account to find out which Obama intermediary transerfered the money.
I repeat. It's time to throw out all sexual harassment laws.
If the little girls are too weak and delicate to function in the public arena, let them go home and hide.
If they want to be in the public arena, let them learn to grow a tough skin.
Fuck this sexual harassment hysteria.
"You guys learned your law from watching Law and Order, The Practice, and Ally McBeal, didn't you?"
Yeah, just try and change the subject and attack those rightly mocking you.
Matt - just STFU you left-wing freakazoid.
Bender said...
This is evidence??
Yeah, it is. It's called testimony. It is the kind of evidence that makes up 90 percent of trials. It is the kind of evidence that people go to jail for. Unrebutted, it is sufficient evidence to prove the case.
I'll let the Professor tie-break this one, but I thought testimony was in court, under oath.
This is an allegation.
At this point, unsubstantiated.
PS I rarely agree with Alex, but he's right on this one. This shows how scared the Demos are of Herman.
They figure they can take Romney; all they have to do is remind black people about the Mormon doctrine about the Sons of Ham.
But a successful, intelligent, charismatic, articulate black man against POTUS TOTUS?
He's gotta be destroyed.
IMO this is one big yawn. Cain must be doing something right to have creeps like Gloria Allred coming out of the woodwork trying to take him down.
I was immunized against this crap by the Clinton administration. Even if I believed these allegations against Cain, and I don't, anything less than having an intern give you a bj in the White House is all good, right?
It might be worthwhile to ask the NRA why she got fired after just 6 months (and it does say fired, not just laid off).
And if she is out for justice and all that, would she not have got a lawyer from the sisterhood?
Calling Gloria Allred in California stinks.
Welcome to the Chicago Machine, Mr. Cain.
Amy said: It looks to me (assuming it is true) that he made a pass at her, she demurred, he backed off. Is THAT a crime now? At this point in my life, I'd consider it a compliment.
I agree with you to a point (which is why I called it boring earlier), but I would still (assuming that it is true, which I am not doing right now) count it against his character- 1) married, 2) he didn't allegedly just say "hey, why don't we screw", but went way overboard in touching and pushing (this is borish more than immoral, I guess, but still speaks to bad judgment), and 3) allegedly attempted to use his ability to get her work as a bargaining chip.
Again, all of this assumes that it's true, which is something that I am withholding judgment on.
Matt said
"That alone tells me that there could be something to the allegations."
Yeah and the Easter Bunny exists too Matt. Just maybe.
The point is, the allegations were made in front of a fawning media.
Its called a 'tire fire'. Ever try to put one out?
Some tire fires are accidental; some are deliberate.
He would never file defamation suit, the danger being that it would provide a chance for others to come forward to give testimony under oath.
I've been asking for evidence. I thinks this constitutes evidence.
I think you’re confusing wanting “evidence” with someone actually coming forward to make a public accusation. This is the latter, not the former.
it was 13 years ago. So any critical thinker would discount it
Huh?
I thought testimony was in court, under oath.
______________
Sure, you want to be hyper-technical, then "evidence" is not really evidence unless it is in court and admitted under strict rules.
Until we get into a courtroom, then you'll have to settle for statements by direct witnesses. But if is that what you folks demanding "evidence" want, to actually take this into a courtroom, OK, fine, let's do that.
And, instead of relying on some professor who I do not believe has ever really tried a case in a real courtroom, just trust those who have.
He would never file defamation suit, the danger being that it would provide a chance for others to come forward to give testimony under oath.
Allie, how do you manage to always get things entirely backwards?
American law makes it almost impossible for a public figure, particularly one in the political spotlight, to win a defamation case. You don't know this?
The standard of proof for "malice" in terms of a political figure is almost possible to overcome.
I don't believe it. For several reasons.
Mainly because Cain would have to be a complete moron to not think that IF this were true that someone would not have come forward when he was running for President of the United States.
I do not think that Cain is a moron.
Everyone has some things in their past that are embarrassing or unsavory. Generally, they are not enough to stop you from running for office. Small things that you did in the past.
Also I don't believe it, because if a person acts the way she claims, then it is certainly not the first time. It would have been a long standing pattern of behaviour and as such there would have been rafts of complaints....LONG before this.
Also.... just because Gloria Allred is involved I already think it is a made up hatchet job by a couple of skanky women for publicity and for money.
Meade:
Please quit usingt the phrase "didn't not happen". It's too damn confusing.
Shouting T said: OK, so we all admit women are too weak and too delicate to function in the public arena.
Get them the hell out.
Or else, get rid of the sexual harassment laws and let them fend for themselves.
Shouting T, you sometimes make good points, but then you turn around and make some sort of cartoon out of any legitimate position you might have held.
Have sexual harassment allegations been abused by women who wanted attention/money/etc.? Certainly. But, if a woman works somewhere, and her male boss comes in and says that she must perform a sexual favor for him or she cannot work there anymore, or he insists on putting his hand on her privates and she risks getting fired if she stops him, do you really, really think that that should not be an actionable offense? What exactly do you expect the woman to do about it to "fend for herself" other than resort to the courts? (BTW, you could reverse the sexes, or make this same sex, and the issue would be completely the same.)
Really?
(this is why women who do cry wolf do everyone a disservice, BTW)
Ann Coulter is right. Accusing somebody of sexual harassment in the 90s was the equivalent of accusing somebody of witchcraft.
The sexual harassment laws now are an outrageous assault on freedom of speech and freedome of association. In the political arena, they are little more than an opportunity character assassins to do their work.
These laws need to be purged from the books.
Ladies, if you can't take care of yourselves, and if you've got a thin skin, put on your burqa and go home.
There is blood in the water..
Not that my opinion matters in the grand scheme of things, but I am unconvinced of Gloria Allred's client's story. It may prove to be true, but there is no evidence other than a celebrity lawyer-driven press conference claim.
I guess that ST doesn't mind having his head pulled down to a man's crotch.
But most others would think it a BFD, to use VP Bite-me's phrase.
Well this will be very hard to recover from (but Bill did it!)
Lyssa: "Who pays for her services? (is she ginning up book sales or speaking fees, maybe?)
(I'm honestly not trying to attack Ms. Alred, I simply find her existance strange and mysterious.)"
Ms. Allred's existence is not mysterious. She got paid by the unions in California to unfairly hose down Meg Whitman, candidate for governor, for hiring an illegal immigrant maid (through an agency, based on false papers, and then pay her generously for years and treat her like a family member). She compromised the maid's status by hauling her illegal immigrant ass in front of the cameras but it's not about the "client" for ole hackowhorus Allred; it's about the real client which is Democratic party machine. (Which is what is funding this latest theatrical performance.)
The mere fact that this lady hired Gloria Allred already diminishes her credibility. Also, if it happened and was sooooooo horrible, why not file a complaint?
File a complaint with who? The hand on my leg police? This isn't a crime. It isn't a tort. The "sex harassment" claim is utterly bogus. They're not at work.
The only reason she's coming forward is because Cain is famouse (now) and running for office. She's thinking maybe there's some money in it.
There's no money in this. Gloria Allred is using her to slime a Republican. Big shock.
The "sex harassment" charge is to give a plausible reason for a sex scandal, which is what this is. But he's in trouble, don't kid yourself.
Bachmann might get a bump from this. Damn man with his damn penis.
lyssa,
Yes, a woman with any sense knows how to handle the situations you've described without recourse to the law, and without losing her job.
If women are too delicate and must be protected by these repressive laws, then they should go home.
Your argument to me is an admission that most people have no business being in the public arena.
"And, instead of relying on some professor who I do not believe has ever really tried a case in a real courtroom, just trust those who have."
so trust someone who says testimony is akin to someone talking at a scheduled press conference with no cross examination and not under oath??
thanks, but I'll take my chances with the good professor.
Isn't it likely that Rove et al know board members and staff at the NRA quite well, and they likely know the details of the settlements and some other information about Cain? When he and Barbour and others say Cain needs to lay out the whole story, isn't it because they know quite a bit about the whole story.
What does Gloria Allred offer women to appear on camera with exactly?
BTW, I thought the woman was black..
Meade,
Bayes' theorem is pretty surprising and relevant here, but the starting summary of that Wiki article is probably the most impenetrable explanation for anything ever.
True or not, I agree with some here that having Allred in your corner is like wearing a shirt that says: "I'm a lying money grubbing whore", but the shirt doesn't take a huge cut of the profits.
I think there are only two explanations for hiring Allred: you want to defraud people out of money, or you want people to think you do.
Shouting Thomas said;
Ladies, if you can't take care of yourselves, and if you've got a thin skin, put on your burqa and go home.
11/7/11 3:34 PM
If someone who pushed my head toward his crotch out of the blue, whist attempting to grope my crotch, not only would I kick him in the balls, I wouldn't have been quiet about it and "taken it" like a good little woman. What he did was bordering on assault. He abused her trust, that alone is disgusting.
Yes, a woman with any sense knows how to handle the situations you've described without recourse to the law, and without losing her job.
OK, so my boss comes into my office and puts his or her hand on my ass. I brush it off; he puts it back; I say "don't do that", and he or she says "You know how lucky you are to have a job in this market, doncha?"
Boss is top of the food chain, so there's no HR to complain to. Sure, I could get violent or say something sharp-witted, but that would still leave me out of the job. What am I, an apparent woman of no sense, to do to handle that situation? Please, enlighten me, oh sensible man.
- Lyssa
I guess that ST doesn't mind having his head pulled down to a man's crotch.
Were that to happen, I'd handle it on my own, without recourse to a lawsuit.
In fact, I have. You might want to read this.
Ann Althouse's hero:
"Rush Limbaugh discussed Sharon Bialek, the fourth woman to come forth with sexual harassment allegations against Herman Cain, during his show Monday.
Bialek, who Limbaugh referred to as "a blonde bombshell," addressed press on Monday afternoon about the sexual harassment allegations. Her lawyer Gloria Allred stood at her side.
Limbaugh reported that Bialek, who he also called a "babe," said that Cain "put his hands up her dress" and "tried to pull her hair..." Limbaugh pronounced Bialek's last name as "bee-ah-lek," which he later told listeners was incorrect.
Instead, he said, Bialek is pronouced "buy-ah-lik." Limbaugh belabored the point to stress that Bialek's last name was, according to him, pronounced like "buy-a-lick." He even made crude slurping noises to drive his point home."
What we've learned is that Cain *may* be a little graphic when asks girls if they want to go steady.
lyssa,
You're working for that kind of boss, and you want to continue in that job?
In that case, you look for and find another job.
The fact that the woman is white proves that Cain is fit for the top job..
Cain groped across the racial divide.. Whereas Bill stuck exclusively to white women only.
Scott M said..."Awesome. Specific details are da bomb. Now how about proof?"
Scott - if your wife came home and told you the same thing about her boss or anybody for that matter, how exactly would YOU prove it, and if you couldn't actually do so, would you dismiss her a liar?
We have four women, all making the same charge, yet you and others here continue to act as if this couldn't possibly have happened...because they don't have what? Video or photographic proof?
You look like fools.
If it is true, then that should help Cain. The last Presidents we had of this character are highly regarded today: FDR,JFK,Clinton. It's a sign of greatness, and we are lucky to see it again.
And, yes, lyssa, I've worked for bosses who were so horrid in one way or another that I quit the job and went elsewhere.
In fact, I just did it.
I quit a contracting job that paid more than I've ever made because the boss was a rude, vicious tyrant.
Life doesn't always offer you great choices. I found another job making less money.
We've made a stupid deal in bringing women into the workplace in large numbers. We always believed that men could take a hit and keep on keeping on. We're sentimental saps when it comes to women.
It's time to put an end to the sentimental bullshit and tell women that they've got to put up with the same shit men put up with.
I've never done anything like what's alleged here, and I feel like a loser for not at least trying. What's wrong with me? I must be a beta male. If you see me, just shoot me. It's what I want.
Sorry, Cain defenders, but defamation suit or it didn't not happen.
So basically if someone makes an unsubstantiated accusation against a public figure, unless the accused responds by going to the expense of filing a defamation suit that is nearly impossible for them to win in an American court, then the accusation is presumed to be true?
Love said...
Ann Althouse's hero:
"Rush Limbaugh discussed Sharon Bialek, the fourth woman to come forth with sexual harassment allegations against Herman Cain, during his show Monday.
Bialek, who Limbaugh referred to as "a blonde bombshell,"
Excellent, if inadvertent, point by one of the trolls.
Ms Bialek showed up looking awfully sexy, if not provocative. I would have thought something a bit more demure would have been more in line, if you're trying to sell the idea she's the victim.
And one other thing - why wait until now?
Why not make this accusation weeks, if not months ago?
Love. As i read the story, poorly written as it was, it seems that Cain was not at the NRA at the time. The woman did not work for Cain and was not with the NRA. Sounds like he got drunk and hit on her or misinterpreted her interest. When rebuffed he backed down and that was that.
Rude certainly. Inappropriate? Given his marital status, yes if true. Harassment? No.
Wait, Meade. Wouldn't a defamation suit require proof that it did not happen (or proof that it did happen from the defendant)? It's been established that nobody can provide proof. What's the point of a defamation suit in a 'he said/she said' case? I could be all wet here. But...I have trouble seeing what a defamation suit would accomplish.
We have four women, all making the same charge, yet you and others here continue to act as if this couldn't possibly have happened..
Um no.
We have several anonymous women making some sort of allegations that we have zero idea what they are. We don't know if they are the 'same' charge or not.
Now we have this woman who has a story.....but....she didn't tell anyone when it happened? or tell anyone since it happened even though Cain has been prominent for quite some time.
I can assure you that if it were ME and I was subjected to the treatment that this Bailek woman claims....I would NOT have remained silent. My boyfriend, all my friends would know. IMMEDIATELY. Not years and years down the road when it is suspiciously convenient.
IMMEDIATELY. And in no uncertain terms.
Do you think the press will give her the Paula Jones, trailer trash treatment. Fat fucking chance.
It's a sign of greatness, and we are lucky to see it again
Even Al Gore wanted to get into the act.
The behavior, if true is unseemly and wrong even if it does ont constitute sexual harassment. Accordingly, we would need to determine whether the allegations are true. These types of allegations lend themselves to "he said, she said denials, and are difficult to substantiate. then, we must look to the accuser, and determine whether she is credible. Hiring Gloria Allred, for any purpose, automatically diminishes a persons credibility. Huge strike against her.
Bialek said she asked him to stop, and Cain complied. She then asked to be driven back to her hotel, and she said Cain promptly complied with that request as well.
Herman Cain, Excitable Boy
He took little Suzie to the Junior Prom
Excitable boy, they all said
And he raped her and killed her, then he took her home
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy
After ten long years they let him out of the home
Excitable boy, they all said
And he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy
Whining about Gloria Allred is nothing more than a means of distracting from the message.
She's been a highly successful and respected attorney for decades and has represented people in search of their Constitutional rights relating to all kinds of discrimination.
For people posting comments on a law professor's blog site to bitch about an attorney representing a woman in such a case as this is disingenuous at best.
The woman made it quite clear that she is not filing a lawsuit so what exactly is the problem here?
EDH said..."Bialek said she asked him to stop, and Cain complied. She then asked to be driven back to her hotel, and she said Cain promptly complied with that request as well."
So if your wife or daughter came home with the same story would you just brush it off...since he "promptly complied with that request" to be driven home?
Sure...
I demand more salacious details, preferably from other hot blondes dressed like high-class whores, represented by high-power lawyers like Gloria Allred. Nothing shouts "plausible!" like the scenario I just described.
She's been a highly successful and respected attorney for decades and has represented people in search of their Constitutional rights relating to all kinds of discrimination.
Last time I checked Cain is black and the accuser is white.. That used to be progress.
Has Obama screwed that up too?
The woman made it quite clear that she is not filing a lawsuit so what exactly is the problem here?
So, she wants to be exempt from any adjudication of her allegations, but she wants to make allegations anyway, and she does it with the help of a Democratic Party character assassin.
No problem there.
Patrick said..."The behavior, if true is unseemly and wrong even if it does ont constitute sexual harassment."
So, shoving your hand under a woman's dress while pulling her head down to your crotch doesn't, in your mind...constitute sexual harassment??
Seriously?
Your wife or daughter comes home with the same story...and you would say what?
Get over it?
FTR: I don’t have a dog in this fight but as someone who will likely vote for the Republican nominee over Obama, I would rather that these accusations come out and be dispensed with in November 2011 than in October 2012.
Here's a suggestion for Mr. Cain: Request a lie detector test for himself and all parties involved.
Would that be okay with regulars here?
Love said...
The woman made it quite clear that she is not filing a lawsuit so what exactly is the problem here?
So, why hire an attorney?
"I asked him to stop and he did"
OK. So... No meant no?
Hey Democrats, it's Camelot II!
Thorley Winston - "FTR: I don’t have a dog in this fight but as someone who will likely vote for the Republican nominee over Obama, I would rather that these accusations come out and be dispensed with in November 2011 than in October 2012."
And if they are proven to be true?
Would you still vote for Cain?
If someone who pushed my head toward his crotch out of the blue
If we were in a court of law, she would be cross-examined. My first question would be, did you kiss him? Was there any kissing?
The comment she made, "you know I have a boyfriend," is not something you say to a man who is attempting to rape you. Is it?
It wasn't an attack. From her own statement, she said no and he stopped. Just assume it was a failed sexual encounter. It happens. I would imagine it happens every day.
while attempting to grope my
crotch, not only would I kick him in the balls, I wouldn't have been quiet about it and "taken it" like a good little woman.
This is why feminism is retarded. Gloria Allred takes a failed sexual encounter, turns it into a rape attempt, and starts acting like there should be criminal prosecutions.
This attitude does actual rape victims no good whatsoever.
Gloria Allred is a publicity hound, a political sleazeball, and a feminist nutjob all rolled into one.
Assume there was some kind of sexual encounter, but if you let Allred spin it for you, you'll have to go into feminist deprogramming before you can date again.
For people posting comments on a law professor's blog site to bitch about an attorney representing a woman in such a case as this is disingenuous at best.
I agree.. that b word is highly inflammatory language..
"...Chicago office..." That says enough to me already. The physical gymnastics sound like a crude circus act.
Matt said: "If you think not go try and stick your hand up a girls skirt during an interview and see what happens. If she doesn't break your hand she'll break your future and maybe your bank."
Exactly the point of those commenters who are not believing this very old story trotted out by a very bad lawyer: Why the hell didn't she kick up this fuss at the time? Why now? And in such questionable company?
And Meade: Defamation is one of the hardest things to prove legally, and such suits go nowhere. Except to call her a liar (in which case SHE should sue for defamation), he really has no recourse.
Your wife or daughter comes home with the same story...and you would say what?
Within this statement is both the proof that this is a political defamation campaign, and the proof that women are too feeble to be in the public arena.
OK, so women are too feeble to exist in the public arena without heroic male chivalry to protect them.
Then, it's time for women to go home and get the hell out of the workplace.
Pogo said..."Hey Democrats, it's Camelot II!"
Can you link us to any story relating to "sexual harassment" during the Kennedy years.
Shouting Thomas - Once again...but this time actually answer the question without the nonsensical blather:
"Your wife or daughter comes home with the same story...and you would say what?"
Would that be okay with regulars here?
Let me check with client #9.
We have four women, all making the same charge, yet you and others here continue to act as if this couldn't possibly have happened...because they don't have what? Video or photographic proof?
You look like fools.
No you're the evil one for insisting that allegations should lynch a man.
Shouting Thomas
Your views are moronic. Period. The difference between a boss that is an asshole to men or women and a boss that is a sexual harrasser toward women is a wide gap.
In part because the latter involves a sexual element used by a male supervisor toward a subordinate. It is one thing to feel your boss does not like the work you do. It is quite another to feel he is alway looking at your tits and expects to cop a feel.
"Can you link us to any story relating to "sexual harassment" during the Kennedy years."
No wonder you admire Allred.
lyssalovelyredhead said...
This is probably going to sink Cain. If it's true, I don't think that's wrong. But, meanwhile, the Dems will continue to hold former President Clinton up as a hero, and will continue to get away with it. That sickens me.
I've been a Cain supporter for a while now, and no witness is 100% reliable. Gloria Allred is a snake in the grass, and a well-known assassin of conservative characters. Still, even taking all this into consideration, things are stacking up badly for Cain. I understand the desire of his supporters to back him up, but if you stop and consider the possible consequences for anyone who was found to have cooked this up, you have to drop the conspiracy theory.
Your larger point is well taken, however. The Dem shibboleth back in Clinton's day was that it was his personal life, and it didn't matter. It mattered then, it matters now, and we just can't run around screaming "Tu quoque!" We are the side that tells the truth, after all.
janetrae - "Exactly the point of those commenters who are not believing this very old story trotted out by a very bad lawyer: Why the hell didn't she kick up this fuss at the time? Why now? And in such questionable company?"
The same reason many women who are actually raped do not.
Shame, embarrassment, loss of job, income, family.
There are 1,000's of grown men who were molested who didn't say a word until adulthood...are you saying they are also just lying or have ulterior motives?
Why would you not be aware of this?
This is not something that is unusual at all.
Lem,
If women have to appeal to male chivalry keep women in the workplace, then maybe women shouldn't be in the workplace.
"Your wife or daughter comes home with the same story...and you would say what?"
That depends. Is my wife my love, my best friend, and my soul-mate? Or is she a lying, cheating bitch that I've already filed divorce on, papers to be served soonest?
Is it my daughter, the apple of my eye, the wonderful young woman who I'd gladly give my life for? Or is it my daughter? The one that's robbed me multiple times to pay for drugs, whom I suspect has had at least one abortion from a man she doesn't know, and who I kicked out of the house after she struck her mother (see soul-mate, above)?
What you're doing, Love, is the old liberal trope of trying to pull heart strings to make a point. As we saw in the original "summit" between Congress and Obama, your technique is mostly what they brought to the table.
"I asked him to stop and he did"
So Cain is not up to snuff with the latest.. ah.. how can i put this.. trash porn lingo..
When you are asking for the republican nomination.. that's a plus.
Lay off my main man Cain!!!
bagoh20 - I think she's a respected attorney. You and others are merely trying to use her as a distraction from what is becoming more and more evident with each passing day.
But what does that have to do with my question?
If you can't respond intelligently, don't.
A prior poster said: "Even if not it's not sexual harassment it reveals his propensity to misuse his power among those he considers to be ripe for the picking, in that they are seeking his help. He expects special favors, in return. This is a serious character flaw. Not fit to occupy the highest office in the land."
Sounds like a job description of William Jefferson Clinton. The only difference is his target said "Right here? Right now? And did it."
You're working for that kind of boss, and you want to continue in that job?
In that case, you look for and find another job.
Have you tried to find a job lately? Besides, what's to stop the next boss from doing the same thing, or from first boss from spreading rumors about my work that might keep me from getting a new job?
These things are unusual, I completely grant that. Most men wouldn't do this, but a lot of men in power would. (You may have heard of a certain Bill Clinton?) But is it really OK with you that a woman might have to allow her body to be a man's playground in order to keep a paycheck, while the man down the hall does not?
I'm completely with you if it's just locker room jokes. But that's not always what it is. It's appropriate to have laws in place for the times when it's not.
"Your wife or daughter comes home with the same story...and you would say what?"
That depends on whether I want to help her become a strong independent woman or a whiny helpless victim the rest of her life.
If she hire Allred, I kick her out of the family.
Seriously, I tell her to never see him again, and think about what warning signs he might have given her so she avoids it next time.
What exactly would you do?
Love said...
Patrick said..."The behavior, if true is unseemly and wrong even if it does ont constitute sexual harassment."
So, shoving your hand under a woman's dress while pulling her head down to your crotch doesn't, in your mind...constitute sexual harassment??
No, because he didn't have any hold over her and there was no pressure to do something.
It's called a pass. You get your face slapped, but he made no quid pro quo proposal.
And, for someone with no dog in the fight, Love is trying very hard to uphold the Lefty side.
Shouting Thomas
Your views are moronic. Period. The difference between a boss that is an asshole to men or women and a boss that is a sexual harrasser toward women is a wide gap.
In part because the latter involves a sexual element used by a male supervisor toward a subordinate. It is one thing to feel your boss does not like the work you do. It is quite another to feel he is alway looking at your tits and expects to cop a feel.
So, get women out of the public workplace.
They're too delicate and too easily victimized to be there.
"Can you link us to any story relating to "sexual harassment" during the Kennedy years."
Which Kennedy years? And which Kennedy? Or do you just mean all of them?
Gruppenfuhrer Cedarford got it right. Classic casting couch story. Too good to be true. It's going to take a lot more than this for me to disbelieve Cain. It's time for him to strip the bark off this bitch. Who hooked her up with Allred? Who's paying her legal costs? Shouting has it right, she needs to get a public colonoscopy on this. She needs to prove the Democrat scum aren't behind this before she gets the benefit of the doubt.
Bill Fucking Clinton. Not one of you leftist asshats has any moral standing now.
Scott M said..."That depends. Is my wife my love, my best friend, and my soul-mate? Or is she a lying, cheating bitch that I've already filed divorce on, papers to be served soonest?"
Is your wife or love interest "a lying, cheating bitch that I've already filed divorce on, papers to be served soonest?"
If that's not the case, and she is indeed your loving wife, best friend or your love or the mother of your children...how would you handle her coming home with this story? What would you tell the kids? Mommy is liar?
Now try to answer without acting like a twelve year old.
Easy, Love.
Ironically, your failure to recognize context in my comment only points out how fraught the area of "hostile environment" harassment is for unfair charges.
If anything, matching Bialek's allegations to Zevon's "Excitable Boy" lyric, "And he raped her and killed her, then he took her home Excitable boy, they all said. Well, he's just an excitable boy" actually exaggerates the degree to which bad behavior is rationalized and excused.
"She said that after dinner, he put his hand on her leg and ran it under her skirt and pulled her head toward his crotch."
... while they were in his car at an intersection. The first thing came to mind was all that leg room, he must be driving a real gas guzzler. If nothing else, Cain should be tarred and feathered (not lynched) for all the carbon footprints he was making. He should also be cited for dangerous driving, imagine if he shot thru the intersection ...
Pardon my skepticism.
I'm not inclined toward Cain because of his naivete on foreign policy. This is, however, evidence of nothing.
If we hadn't had Bork, and Thomas, and the un-sealing of Ryan's records, I might be inclined to believe there is the possibility of some truth here. I'm more inclined to believe this is a partisan attack. You know, because where there's smoke there's fire.
Actually, I don't know. But this is the same logic being applied by those inclined to believe Cain is guilty of something.
@Meade
Or, I should say, defamation suit or it theoretically probably didn't not happen.
I think you've got it backwards. Shouldn't she have filed a sexual assault complaint in 1999? Even knowing how hard it is to prove such a charge, shouldn't she have filed it anyway? If not, why not? And why didn't anyone ask her this at the press conference?
janetrae said...
Why the hell didn't she kick up this fuss at the time? Why now? And in such questionable company?
Why did it take Paula Jones three years to come forward with her allegations about Clinton? Especially when you consider Clinton was the governor at the time of the alleged incedent.
I would argue Cain was less important politically at the time. This woman came forward now because he is running for President. Doesn't mean the allegations are not true - it just means she is making a political move herself. That's politics.
Meade - Use any of them who were part of Pogo's "Camelot" drivel. There are quite a few Kennedy's, just as their are quite a few close and distant relatives of all families.
Link to a "sexual harassment" story.
@Love
You're an idiot. Sexual harassment is a issue that is restricted TO THE WORKPLACE.
Cain and Bialek had no employment relationship at the time in question. What Cain did doesn't even constitute a crime-- she said "no" and he stopped, by her own account.
Still, I won't vote for a guy that cheats on his wife. You say all politicians do? I would bet you every cent I have that George W. Bush didn't.
Hand on the thigh: that's too forward.
Pulling her head down: that's just tacky.
Stopping when she asked him to: that's what he's supposed to do.
All of this sounds like any of a thousand dates. Because most of us don't date CEOs or presidential candidates, we are left with stories of bad dates or funny dates or whew-at-least-he-heard-me-when-I-said-stop dates.
None of this sounds criminal. It might, however, make me rethink my opinion of Cain but I haven't been the biggest fan of him anyway.
Have you tried to find a job lately? Besides, what's to stop the next boss from doing the same thing, or from first boss from spreading rumors about my work that might keep me from getting a new job?
Yes, I have tried to find a job lately?
I told you, I just quit a contract because my boss (a women) was a completely stupid fucking tyrant. If she could have gotten away with following me into the toilet and timing how long it took me to take a piss, she would have done it.
And, I found another job.
One of the reasons I work in NYC is precisely because the plethora of employers makes it virtually impossible for an employer to blacklist an employee.
Why can't women find solutions to their own problems, instead of all this recourse to male chivalry masquerading as law?
If women can't take care of themselves in the workplace, let them go home.
I repeat. The sexual harassment laws need to be taken off the books.
He made a move, she said no, and that's about the whole story right there.
call me catty, but particularly for one out of their teens, rocking the Veronica Lake peek-a-boo look does not inspire confidence
Why the hell didn't she kick up this fuss at the time? Why now? And in such questionable company?
__________
Because, contrary to ST's mouthfoaming over this, she was willing to let the thing drop, at the time, as merely a jerk-thing for Cain to do. But now, after Cain has insisted that he is as pure as snow and has never, ever done anything like this, so shut the hell up because he has said he didn't, now, given his denials, she is willing to come forward and set the record straight.
Is the statement of facts that she gave true? I don't know, but it has the tone of credibility.
So, again, Cain and his supporters are going to have to do better than "we're done talking about it, so shut the hell up." It appears, though, that his camp and all you would-be Begalas have decided to go the Clintonian "nuts and sluts" route. That is the rather slimy choice, if you ask me, but then again, I'm not you all.
went way overboard in touching and pushing (this is borish more than immoral, I guess, but still speaks to bad judgment)
This is the thing that gives me pause, although it’s not uncommon in the dating world. And it’s definitely not sexual harassment so I don’t know what the heck they’re talking about. But if behavior like that is common, I could see why he would have several suits.
Yes, a woman with any sense knows how to handle the situations you've described without recourse to the law, and without losing her job.
Yes, but it generally involves running far far away from that department. Which, depending on the circumstances, might not be good for your career.
Shouting Thomas said;
If women have to appeal to male chivalry keep women in the workplace, then maybe women shouldn't be in the workplace.
11/7/11 4:07 PM
Women should not have to defend themselves from unwanted sexual behavior in the workplace, the onus is on the aggressor, not on the woman to defend herself. There are plenty of women that would not have just walked away as Bialek did.
OK, so my boss comes into my office and puts his or her hand on my ass.
Slap him.
That works.
I like that better than filling out forms in triplicate and getting permission from the state before you go for second base.
I slapped a girl on the ass one time and she yelled at me. That worked.
A girl pinched me on the ass one time and I just looked at her. That worked too.
I must admit, though, that it's a breath of fresh air to finally hear white women make accusations against a black man, and not have the media question the racially-charged ulterior motives underlying said accusations.
Thanks Obama! We're officially in a post-racial era!
Love said...
Whining about Gloria Allred is nothing more than a means of distracting from the message.
Coming from someone who discounted a NY Post report regarding the OWS encampment no less!
Coherence much, love?
Am I to believe that if four separate women were to surface, all saying they were sexually harassed by President Obama or any other Democratic holding office, the regular Althouse commenters would all be screaming to high heaven that, until you see actual, undeniable proof...you would all recommend holding off on taking any action?
And of course, if you own wife or daughter came home with the same story, you would dismiss her as a liar?
At some point, even the Althouse crew has to be a tad more honest.
Allie's Apple said...
Women should not have to defend themselves from unwanted sexual behavior in the workplace
There were in a car, not the workplace.
Shouting Thomas
So, get women out of the public workplace.
If you really don't believe there is such a thing as sexual harrassment it tells me you live in an old boy network from the pre-1960's where women were only expected to stay home, raise kids and cook for the man. [And maybe wear a burka].
That must be it; you're a wannabe Saudi prince offering your own sharia law.
Tyrone S.: I understand the desire of his supporters to back him up, but if you stop and consider the possible consequences for anyone who was found to have cooked this up, you have to drop the conspiracy theory.
I'm not sure what I've said that could be considered a conspiracy theory. Could you please clarify?
Your larger point is well taken, however. The Dem shibboleth back in Clinton's day was that it was his personal life, and it didn't matter. It mattered then, it matters now, and we just can't run around screaming "Tu quoque!" We are the side that tells the truth, after all.
I agree with you. It sickens me that liberals, including those who call themselves feminists, will continue to defend the sort of behavior of Clinton, Kennedy, et al. I wasn't complaining so much about the double standard as the fact that liberals/"feminists" so easily sell out women's sexuality for political gain, and that there are people who still believe that liberalism is somehow better for women then conservativism. That's sickening, to me.
Now try to answer without acting like a twelve year old.
Oh, well played, my dear. You ask an imprecise question, much like my 7-year-old, in the course of a rational debate and you expect people to read your mind. Simply saying "wife" or "daughter" in your context is meant to cause sympathy toward your point of view. The problem is, "wife" and daughter", especially as far as trust goes, are completely and utterly dependent on the relationship in question.
First, the most obvious. My wife or daughter coming home with such a story...MY wife or daughter, would engender a rage I don't think I can even comprehend and don't care to contemplate much. The problem with this reaction...and your theory of how this should relate...is that I know my wife and my daughters intimately. I believe I can trust them with my life and the lives of other members of our family (to the extent that age is appropriate for such a trust).
I don't know this woman trotted out today from you. In fact, I know her less. Hell, you could BE her, for all I know.
My 12-year-old point is, I suppose, that your question is a non-sequitur because relationship to the person in question has no bearing on their trustworthiness or my reaction to said story. If you were a grown up, you'd know that.
Empathetic appeals to marginal authorities don't suite you.
two things - and I'm not a Cain supporter:
1) I'm kind of embarrassed to see how easily the public can be manipulated into doing the bidding of these morons. These people have given you nothing - nothing - but some of you are already convinced. But, even worse, there's no serious speculative effort put behind who would perpetuate this fraud but, rather, whether or not Cain is a clumsy adulterer - which is the whole point of launching it.
lyssalovelyredhead,
Have sexual harassment allegations been abused by women who wanted attention/money/etc.? Certainly. But, if a woman works somewhere, and her male boss comes in and says that she must perform a sexual favor for him or she cannot work there anymore, or he insists on putting his hand on her privates and she risks getting fired if she stops him, do you really, really think that that should not be an actionable offense?
No, we think it doesn't have to fall under "sexual harassment." First, a blowjob for employment means you don't want the position, right? What's actionable about that? Touching starts us down the road to assault. It's the same shit men deal with, with the same remedies, but without the special pleading.
"I think she's a respected attorney"
That's far from true. I can't think of many lawyers who are as much despised and disrespected as her.
Just one example is what she did in the Whitman scandal which was totally despicable, and everyone knows it.
There = they
Jay - The New York Post has a reputation for being what it is.
Maybe if you were to actually ever read the paper itself?
As for Allred; she's represented all kinds of people and organizations over the years. Pigeonholing her is nothing more than a means of distraction.
Do YOU or do YOU not believe any of these women?
"Can you link us to any story relating to "sexual harassment" during the Kennedy years."
Oh.. you mean its preferable to go back to when women were left to die by a car ditching drunk driving senator?
Love must be very young.
Just because there are NO death certificates from the 1700s saying people died of hart attacks.. does that mean there were NO hart attacks.
Aww, come on. Sometimes a man just needs to release his second chakra.
bago - "That's far from true. I can't think of many lawyers who are as much despised and disrespected as her."
By who?
Provide the names of all the people who feel that way.
the regular Althouse commenters would all be screaming to high heaven that, until you see actual, undeniable proof...you would all recommend holding off on taking any action?
Incredible accusations require incredible evidence. Sorta like global warming and Santa Clause. If such a story popped up (no pun), sure, it would be nice to think it would sink POTUS, but I wouldn't not be satisfied with a witch hunt and anything less verifiable facts.
I realize that you have a low opinion of the conservative regulars to make such an accusation, but I have to know if you're self-aware enough to know how much of the statement you levy at us is projection.
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