Althouse: Is it a contradiction to allow guns in the Wisconsin Assembly gallery and to arrest people who use cameras?

October 27, 2011

Is it a contradiction to allow guns in the Wisconsin Assembly gallery and to arrest people who use cameras?

Under the new law, guns will be allowed in most parts of the Wisconsin Capitol building but just this week "a dozen people were removed from the Assembly galleries and arrested for videotaping proceedings and holding up signs."

Rep. Robin Vos (R-Rochester) says there's no contradiction: "You can have a gun, but you can't shoot."

54 comments:

cubanbob said...: This is just plain wrong, and I'm to the right of Genghis Khan.; 10/27/11, 10:52 AM
Pastafarian said...: You can have a camera too, just don't operate it.

And the last time I checked, there's no explicit "right to keep and bear cameras" that "shall not be infringed."

But seriously, it should be an unenumerated right, since it isn't explicitly listed as something that the government can control; but hell, I think we've already burned that bridge at this point. Our rights are what the government decides to leave us with, at this point.

We don't even own our own property anymore; we just stay there til the government decides to take it back. We don't own our own wealth; the government just gives us an allowance, whatever they don't want, we get to keep.; 10/27/11, 10:57 AM
edutcher said...: God forbid we have a little accountability.

WV "logossi" Somebody named Bella who worked for Ed Wood.; 10/27/11, 11:01 AM
garage mahal said...: You can bring a gun in the Capitol but not a piece of notebook paper with text of the state constitution taped to your shirt. Welcome to Walker's Wisconsin.

I wonder if Meade ever gets harrassed or arrested for filming like others do?; 10/27/11, 11:03 AM
MadisonMan said...: I wonder if those arrested had press passes.; 10/27/11, 11:03 AM
Pastafarian said...: Probably not, garage. I'm betting that the Koch brothers showed Meade and Althouse the secret wink, to let the gatekeepers know that they're part of the inner circle.; 10/27/11, 11:08 AM
Anonymous said...: Aren't the rules to prevent disruption of the legislative proceedings, whether it be from flashbulbs, signs, etc.; 10/27/11, 11:10 AM
Sofa King said...: You can bring a gun in the Capitol but not a piece of notebook paper with text of the state constitution taped to your shirt. Welcome to Walker's Wisconsin.

Um, I think that with *both* you can bring them into the Capitol but not wave them around in the Assembly gallery while the Assembly is trying to conduct business.

That doesn't seem unreasonable.

Free speech doesn't mean that you can speak anywhere at any time by any method.; 10/27/11, 11:17 AM
garage mahal said...: Um, I think that with *both* you can bring them into the Capitol but not wave them around in the Assembly gallery while the Assembly is trying to conduct business.

How does one "wave around" their tee shirt?

And why does it seem like some people get arrested for silently filming, while others do not? Like Meade. Hmmph.

Oh well!; 10/27/11, 11:27 AM
Tyrone Slothrop said...: I am rabidly pro-Second-Amendment-as-an-individual-right, but I would not feel that right was being infringed if I were asked to disarm before entering the state assembly gallery. Some places ought to be assumed to be safe enough not to require the bearing of arms, including courtrooms and legislative chambers.; 10/27/11, 11:28 AM
Sofa King said...: Are there videos from Meade from inside the gallery? Can you at least try to stay on topic?; 10/27/11, 11:31 AM
traditionalguy said...: Silliness, thy name is Madison.

The legislators can be snapped in odd poses and edited videos by enemies to smear them. So they said no to pictures.

The People owning them is a slogan and not a reality. They have the right to set the rules within the Chambers and halls.

Get a life.; 10/27/11, 11:34 AM
J said...: It's a ...mojo thing garag. GOP fratboys who walk around with a gat...feel important, authoritative, cop-like--in reality they're just ordinary whitetrash .business types. Or maybe they're planning on shooting some lib-ralls...

SHouldn't be permitted (especially since govt. buildings have boo-coo security); 10/27/11, 11:35 AM
Temujin said...: I believe there's an 'insipid' statute in Wisconsin Law. The signs fall under that statute. Clearly, it's not typically enforced.; 10/27/11, 11:36 AM
Michael said...: I thought west coast faux hipsters were the gat-sters.; 10/27/11, 11:42 AM
J said...: Faux- is you, Mikey .A faux-human.

"Gat" is used out here tho=--a nice ring to it, eh, GAT. A bit complex for ya. Or maybe it was the point..on GOP frat-punks? Actuallly in a sense ah agree-let then carry guns--Fed level as well. Demos too. Then when the politicos disagree on some point,allow duels.So ...likeBoehner, Cuntor, or whoever talks shit, want to cut SS, HC, etc...Pete Stark or Miss Pelosi or Sanchezes can challenge them, and then smoke the GOP frat-punks away in the parking lot.; 10/27/11, 11:55 AM
garage mahal said...: Are there videos from Meade from inside the gallery? Can you at least try to stay on topic?

According this account, yes.

Lawrence Meade is being disingenuous by saying he was impressed by the officers' gentleness and tactfullness in the video because he himself was in attendance at the Assembly committee on Monday October 17th where three of us were removed for quietly holding signs. Meade sat there filming, also a protected first amendment right according to WI State Statute 19.90 and a recent US Circuit court decision.

Of course I wasn't there, but it appears Meade was violating the no filming rule? Or can you film people getting arrested, but not the proceedings? Maybe Meade could shine some light on the subject.; 10/27/11, 12:01 PM
Lincolntf said...: Oh hooray, J gave enough handjobs this morning to afford a fresh crack rock. Lucky us.; 10/27/11, 12:04 PM
Bryan C said...: Video recording is nothing more than a passive extension of the senses and the memory. Cameras don't wave signs or chant or interrupt the business of the legislature. Banning recording is nearly always a stupid idea. Even more so now that any such ban is completely futile.

There are times I've wanted to run for office for the sole purpose of being able to sit down at a routine session and casually livestream the proceedings. That would be fun.; 10/27/11, 12:11 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Are there videos from Meade from inside the gallery?"

The recent video you may be thinking of was in a hearing room, and there was permission to use cameras.

Last winter, Meade went to the Governor's budget address, and that was in the assembly gallery. He took a brief video shot of the place before the speech started, while the legislators were filing into the chamber, and he was told to put the camera away, which he then did.

The people who have been arrested were all, I believe, told what they needed to do and warned that they would be arrested if they did not comply.; 10/27/11, 12:24 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Of course I wasn't there, but it appears Meade was violating the no filming rule? Or can you film people getting arrested, but not the proceedings? Maybe Meade could shine some light on the subject."

There was express permission to use cameras. Signs were, however, forbidden.; 10/27/11, 12:25 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Obviously, we had a lot of video of the legislators themselves. This was the hearing about affirmative action. I'm not going to look up those old clips right now.

Google: Althouse Clegg affirmative action; 10/27/11, 12:27 PM
J said...: Hey Lincoln boy--. Code duello would scare the F. out of WASP-LDS GOP-queers such as you, que es verdad. Crack ? yr mama's still at the truckstop--so will have to wait, basura.; 10/27/11, 12:29 PM
garage mahal said...: There was express permission to use cameras. Signs were, however, forbidden.

I wonder if the DA will press charges on those arrested not for filming, but for "not asking permission to film first". Thanks for clarifying though.; 10/27/11, 12:38 PM
J said...: Remove Lincoln's obscene comment AA . grazi; 10/27/11, 12:40 PM
Methadras said...: Wisconsin is a schitzo-state. It really is. This is wrong.; 10/27/11, 12:50 PM
Abdul Abulbul Amir said...: .

"Some places ought to be assumed to be safe enough not to require the bearing of arms, including..."

And you can easily identify all of those places because the police and judges are required to be disarmed to enter. So far the total of such locales seems to be zero.

.; 10/27/11, 12:53 PM
Calypso Facto said...: I wonder if the DA will press charges...

Not if the past is any indication. There have been virtually no charges arising from the arrests or removals made at the Capitol, and even when made, they aren't pursued.

The majority of citations for this group of protesters have been dismissed.

For example, according to the court system's online records, police have issued Ryan 14 citations this year, most of which were for disorderly conduct. He has contested all the citations, and 10 of them were dismissed. His one conviction, for prohibited conduct, came when he did not show up for a court date. Three more citations are pending.

Kristan has had three convictions. Madison police cited him for misdemeanor disorderly conduct in the beer incident, but he has not been charged. Kristan said he has a court date scheduled for next month.

Deputy Dist. Atty. Chris Freeman, who has overseen the cases, said Tuesday that his office has not been soft on the protesters. He said he considers each case individually. Several of them, he said, were dismissed because of ambiguity in the rules between the two houses of the Legislature.

"We have limited resources," Freeman said. "What's going on at the Capitol is important, but not of paramount concern. I have to decide if we have the time and resources to pursue each case."

And what ever came of those "internal investigations" into the UW MDs handing out sick slips or the teachers that took them anyway?
UPDATE: Six months after some doctors at the University of Wisconsin wrote sick notes ... the school hasn't finished disciplining the doctors.
So, nothing? What a surprise.; 10/27/11, 12:59 PM
J said...: Why doesn't say C-SPAN have film-crews in all assemblies/legislatures? Because the GOP frat-boys (and some Demos)have prevented it. There's your causa belli AA; 10/27/11, 1:02 PM
garage mahal said...: Not if the past is any indication. There have been virtually no charges arising from the arrests or removals made at the Capitol, and even when made, they aren't pursued.

State statues say one thing. Republican "rules" say another.
I imagine they have better things to do with their time and resources. No pepper sprays or rubber bullets shot at citizens though. We should all be thankful.; 10/27/11, 1:24 PM
Joe said...: Heaven forbid politicians are actually put on record.; 10/27/11, 1:27 PM
Anonymous said...: There's no contradiction because cameras are more dangerous than guns to despotic governments.

(As Solzhenitsyn duly noted, in the Soviet Union, political prisoners were treated worse than criminals because they are more dangerous to the system.); 10/27/11, 1:50 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I wonder if the DA will press charges on those arrested not for filming, but for "not asking permission to film first". Thanks for clarifying though."

You're being an idiot, presumably on purpose. No one was arrested at the hearing for taking photographs. They were arrested for having signs.; 10/27/11, 2:11 PM
Ann Althouse said...: And I believe that no one was arrested for violating the rule against signs until after they were informed of the rule and impending arrest. These were all people who consciously chose to accept arrest rather than to comply with a request to follow an explicit rule.; 10/27/11, 2:23 PM
Meade said...: garage mahal said...
I wonder if the DA will press charges on those arrested not for filming, but for "not asking permission to film first".

Read more carefully, garage. She said, "There was express permission to use cameras. Signs were, however, forbidden."

The permission to use cameras was expressed to everyone entering the hearing room, as was the prohibition on holding signs. And no one was arrested without first being given multiple warnings to put away their signs. Testing these rules is nothing more than jackassery. Sanctimonious jackassery but jackassery nonetheless.; 10/27/11, 2:24 PM
Petunia said...: I think it's a really stupid idea to allow guns in the Capitol. Pandering to the NRA, I guess.

We've all seen how poorly the Capitol Police have done their jobs over the past nine months or so. They did nothing to stop the occupation and they could barely deal with people smoking pot in the tents they pitched inside, or the people who bike-locked their necks to the railings.

Imagine what they would do (or not do) if some useful idiot protestor started shooting at the Capitol.; 10/27/11, 2:50 PM
Curious George said...: "Petunia said...
I think it's a really stupid idea to allow guns in the Capitol. Pandering to the NRA, I guess.

We've all seen how poorly the Capitol Police have done their jobs over the past nine months or so. They did nothing to stop the occupation and they could barely deal with people smoking pot in the tents they pitched inside, or the people who bike-locked their necks to the railings.

Imagine what they would do (or not do) if some useful idiot protestor started shooting at the Capitol."

You will need a concealed carry permit to bring a gun into the capitol (so "allow guns" is not technically accurate). Frankly, these are the folks you need to have present if what you say is accurate.; 10/27/11, 3:12 PM
Carnifex said...: I want my government to fear me so I have no problem with the gun thing. I do want to know why if the politicians are doing the peoples business why the people can't view that process.

Our rights have been slow stripped away. Its as Pastafarian said, "Anything not forbidden is mandatory"

I paraphrase.; 10/27/11, 4:08 PM
Sofa King said...: State statues say one thing.

Strange, they've always seemed pretty inert to me, being made of metal and stone.; 10/27/11, 4:10 PM
Sofa King said...: I do want to know why if the politicians are doing the peoples business why the people can't view that process.

Any citizen who wants to view the process in person is allowed to show up, and the state provides its own video feed on WisconsinEye. They don't want people releasing edited or misleading versions of the proceeding.

Arguably they're being a bit paranoid, but it's hard to see this as a serious breach of transparency.; 10/27/11, 4:12 PM
Anonymous said...: Garage I was wondering the same thing . Did Mede hav a Press Pass?; 10/27/11, 5:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Meade, sorry.; 10/27/11, 5:13 PM
Petunia said...: You might be right, George, but it sounds like it's going to be pretty easy to get a concealed carry permit here (I don't know much about guns so I have no idea whether the four-hour training requirement is adequate or not).

But what's to stop one of these idiot protestors from jumping through the hoops required to get the permit, and then go in and start shooting? I'd say the odds of a responsible permit holder's being there watching the legislative session at the same time are pretty small.; 10/27/11, 5:14 PM
garage mahal said...: But what's to stop one of these idiot protestors from jumping through the hoops required to get the permit, and then go in and start shooting?

The only violence we've seen inside the Capitol has been against the protesters.; 10/27/11, 5:35 PM
Curious George said...: "Petunia said...
You might be right, George, but it sounds like it's going to be pretty easy to get a concealed carry permit here (I don't know much about guns so I have no idea whether the four-hour training requirement is adequate or not).

But what's to stop one of these idiot protestors from jumping through the hoops required to get the permit, and then go in and start shooting? I'd say the odds of a responsible permit holder's being there watching the legislative session at the same time are pretty small."

I don't believe that it is or will be all that difficult to illegally bring a gun into the capitol. There were metal detectors but I believe it was temporary, and I don't think there are any plans to add them. If I am right, someone determined to shoot it up will not need to get a CCW permit to do it. That said, having law abiding CCW citizens around can be a deterrent.

"garage mahal said...
The only violence we've seen inside the Capitol has been against the protesters."

Really? I can onlt think of one incidence, and a protester was also charged in the scuffle...which is hardly what we are talki8ng about here.

The only known threats of deadly violence however have come from anti-Walker nutjobs.; 10/27/11, 6:29 PM
garage mahal said...: The only known threats of deadly violence however have come from anti-Walker nutjobs.

Unsurprisingly, that's not even close to being true. Erpenbach received only only one less than Walker. The difference is Democrats don't go running around acting like frightened children.

The 78 closed cases involve:

• 15 threats against Walker.

• 30 threats targeting Democratic senators.

• 12 threats against Republican senators and state representatives, including a one-line email sent to all 56 GOP Assembly members.

• 21 threats targeting Capitol protesters, police, the Tea Party, Madison Mayor Dave Cieslewicz, Dane County Board Chairman Scott McDonell and others.

Link

wv - whorkin: What's not in WIsconsin; 10/27/11, 6:45 PM
Paul said...: Guess it's time for SPY CAMERAS!!!

They make 'em!

Comeon gang.. Remember 'Mission Impossible'? Tom Cruze? Da da..da da da da da.. da da da da da...

"Good evening Mr. Phelps" and Tom threw those glasses at him.

http://www.securitysystems.com/SpySunGlasses.htm

Many ways to hide those little cameras!; 10/27/11, 7:34 PM
The Dude said...: Statue of limitations FTW!; 10/27/11, 9:18 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Tyrone,

"Some places ought to be assumed to be safe enough not to require the bearing of arms, including courtrooms and legislative chambers."

What a terrible idea! "Assuming" safety provides no safety at all.

Here in WA state, we aren't allowed to bring firearms into court facilities, but in turn the courts are required to provide handgun storage for those entering. This is not quite as good as it should be--a pair of determined individuals could easily breach security at the court facilities I've been at--but it's far better than a ban w/o metal detectors (where only the law-abiding are disarmed) and it's better than not requiring storage (so you have to leave your handgun 1, 10, 100 blocks away, or maybe even just leave it home.); 10/28/11, 12:10 AM
Kirk Parker said...: Petunia: "I think it's a really stupid idea to allow guns in the Capitol... We've all seen how poorly the Capitol Police have done their jobs... "

Curious Geo: "You will need a concealed carry permit to bring a gun into the capitol..."

Me: Aren't you Wisconsinites embarrassed to be so backward? Here in WA you can carry in the legislative offices and the Capitol, concealed (w/permit) or openly (no permit needed) and it's not a problem. Why would it be a problem for you guys? Are you really that unruly??

And the WA State Patrol is exemplary in their professionalism in this regard: treating armed citizens with the same respect due any other citizen, telling those whining about the presence of armed fellow-citizens to chill, it's completely legal, and in the unlikely case of an assault in some government building (God forbid) I assume they'll acquit themselves well.; 10/28/11, 12:20 AM
Kirk Parker said...: Oh, and regarding this:

"But what's to stop one of these idiot protestors from jumping through the hoops required to get the permit, and then go in and start shooting?"

The answer is the same as the answer to the question of what's stopping them today: NOTHING.

wv: damath - what you need to do to see if the budget works out.; 10/28/11, 12:21 AM
Curious George said...: " garage mahal said...
The only known threats of deadly violence however have come from anti-Walker nutjobs.

Unsurprisingly, that's not even close to being true. Erpenbach received only only one less than Walker. The difference is Democrats don't go running around acting like frightened children."

LOL

Of all the cases, only two arrests. Both anti-Walker people.; 10/28/11, 8:19 AM
Akai_Tsuki said...: The majority of citations for this group of protesters have been dismissed.

For example, according to the court system's online records, police have issued Ryan 14 citations this year, most of which were for disorderly conduct. He has contested all the citations, and 10 of them were dismissed. His one conviction, for prohibited conduct, came when he did not show up for a court date. Three more citations are pending.movers nyc southern maryland homes for sale; 11/15/11, 8:31 AM
Akai_Tsuki said...: We don't even own our own property anymore; we just stay there til the government decides to take it back. We don't own our own wealth; the government just gives us an allowance, whatever they don't want, we get to keep.

alarm reverse mortgages how they work; 11/30/11, 9:36 PM