Olneck takes issue with the way Linda Chavez — the CEO founder — characterized the incident that took place at the CEO press conference announcing the reports. (We talked about the Chavez op-ed here, yesterday.)
Olneck says:
Ms. Chavez takes at face value, and further publicizes, the Doubletree's manager's description of what occurred at the hotel. The press release issued by the Doubletree described the large group of student protesters as a "mob" that "became increasingly physically violent when forcing themselves into the meeting room where the press conference had already ended." And, it alleged that "staff were then rushed by a mob of protesters, throwing employees to the ground."Pushed through them?! So, you're saying you know they did not fall to the ground or simply that you did not see anything more than that they were "pushed through"? And that's not violent because... why? You can go into a private business place, decide you get to go where you want to go, and push through the employees that try to guard a door and that's not violent? And it's not a "mob" because... why? You described a mob!
I attended the press conference, and was in the main lobby of the hotel afterward. There was no "mob" that was "physically violent." There was an organized group of protesters whose loud chanting forced an end to the press conference, and which attempted to enter the conference room after the doors were open. Two hotel employees attempted to physically prevent the group from entering the room, and the group pushed through them.
Members of the group attempted to confront Mr. Clegg, and made his exit difficult.Deliberately depriving someone of his ability to leave a place is a crime. You don't think it's physically violent? Go to that link: It's a felony in Wisconsin. Thanks for the description of what you saw, but your account reinforces the press report that Chavez relied on. You may deny the characterizations "mob" and "physically violent," but you, an eyewitness, describe the details, stating facts that would lead me to characterize it as a physically violent mob.
Some followed him as he headed toward what I presume was the elevator bank. While this experience was clearly unfamiliar and unnerving to Doubletree staff, for the manager and Ms. Chavez to depict what occurred as the actions of a "mob" is an egregious slur on the students. While the protest may well have broken decorum, its well-motivated participants do not deserve to be characterized as a "mob."Incredible! Or perhaps not so incredible here in Madison, Wisconsin where people seem to have acquired the idea that the usual rules don't apply if you're propelled by righteous anger against a demonized a political opponent. You're "well-motivated" so what would otherwise be crimes become mere breaches of "decorum."
Is this the Madison mind-set? Is this what passes for liberalism around here? It seems to me that a true liberal would never say that what is a crime (or a tort) depends on one's political orientation. Picture a press conference by a beloved advocate of civil rights stormed by a group of racist skinheads, Professor Olneck. Make all the actions exactly the same, but change the political viewpoints. Would you then use the words "mob" and "physically violent"?
Posts
185 comments:
Did anyone get hurt?
Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmedoityoucan'tproveanything.
What's with all these sociology professors sticking their noses into education policy? No wonder Junior doesn't learn squat in school.
Um, if I recall correctly, one student let all of the others in through a kitchen entrance into the building.
Presumably, if the good professor was in the ballroom he was not in the kitchen and had no fucking idea what went on when, say, kitchen staff were trying to prevent the mob from entering the building in the first place.
The apologist seems to be saying that the "Students" still maintain a certain immunity against being judged by the rules in their student town.
It seems to be Diplomatic Immunity of sorts they claim with the students as part of their own sovereign territory akin to an Embassy compound.
AHHH--maybe a pissing contest between tenured faculty on the U WI
will be an interesting follow on I am sure
Guessing that at least one faculty member will file some sort of complaint with the faculty senate.
good times ahead
I watched a PBS fundraiser the other night that featured Peter, Paul and Mary. One of the clips featured Dr. Martin Luther King talking about the dignity of all humanity. Although the left often invokes the name of Dr. King, this seems to be one of his lessons that they have either forgotten or chose to ignore.
When one sees the truth as an "egregious slur", they should probably re-think their position.
@Roger J At the University of Wisconsin, we call it "sifting and winnowing." Not "a pissing contest."
And your metaphor discriminates against women.
"Is this what passes for liberalism around here?"
Yes.
"Is this the Madison mind-set?"
Of course it is. It's the liberal mind set. Madison just turns it up to 11. And it goes beyond "become mere breaches of "decorum." It's acceptable. And it has become that because it is either encouraged or tolerated by those in positions of authority.
I was stuck in Traffic the other day and while my guard was down allowed the radio to settle on a Pacifica Radio program on the Haymarket Anarchists.
It was a book review on a reevaluation of the trial of the Haymarket bombers. The avowedly progressive author concluded reluctantly that the trial was fair compared to the standards of the day and the accused were guilty. He and the Progressive interviewer admitted that while the bombers meant well for social change, the bombing hurt the cause.
This change of heart has not yet penetrated into darkest Wisconsin.
"Is this the Madison mind-set? Is this what passes for liberalism around here? It seems to me that a true liberal would never say that what is a crime (or a tort) depends on one's political orientation."
I long ago noticed that many of the Madison liberals I knew fully supported criminalizing speech they disagreed with.
Educational Policy Studies and Sociology
It seems this is where UW practices affirmative action for otherwise unemployable lefties.
Professor: I am obviously clueless--please explain to me why my metaphor "discriminates against women" I simply dont see that at all, but would appreciate a more full explanation.
His mindset is distinctly leftwing and theres nothing new about it.
He will lie and excuse thuggery his cause. Leftists alway do.
It is all political. All crimes are now political crimes. All bad behavior is now free expression. Let the human sacrifice begin.
Reminds me of that idiot in the news the other day who excused his actions by saying "I'd NEVER do anything physical, so I just poured my beer on them."
Pouring something on someone isn't physical? Really? It's a physical attack that, in most parts of the world, will get your ass kicked, but it's a 'excuse' that a lot of PC-minded idiots buy.
Didn't this stammering jackass of a Sociology Professor re-read his own work and realize that, as Althouse points out, he totally refutes himself? The weasel words like "push through" and "broken decorum" are way too obvious to do any good hiding his intentions. Hey Olneck, next time you write a sophomoric attempt at a whitewash, don't out yourself in the second paragraph. Idiot.
"well-motivated" seems to balance out the violence -- as it did in the French Revolution. The guillotines weren't doing "violence," they were doing "justice."
Roger, she's probably reading between the lines, if you know what I mean.
Seems like some faculty view their trained seal students as a sort of private mob....or something.
Allen S: not sure what our hostess was talking about except that men, involved in a pissing contest can write their names in the snow--call it directional urination if you will--women, unless they are belly dancers cannot do that--probably pissing envy
One can't really understand such thinking as the Professor's until one sees them in the structure of the leftist paradigms:
1. there is no absolute right, wrong, or truth, there is only power.
2. words are mere tools of power, and they have no innate meaning.
3. notwithstanding number 1 above, the other side is evil, and therefore whatever I do to combat evil is justified, including breaking the laws which are only right and just when they help me.
Knowing these foundational accepted assumptions of the left will render most leftist acts and statements understandable, if not acceptable.
BTW Professor: I am sure you can hold your own in sifting and winnowing issue, even if you cant write your name in the snow
I would expect Mike Olneck to say nothing bad about anything to the left of the political spectrum.
More good reasons to not vote Democrat too often.
That's why they have sociologists teaching sociology instead of lawyers.
Being a mere crime doesn't make it violence.
Mental violence perhaps, and physical crime.
Not physical violence or mental crime.
The well-intentioned are blameless.
That neat little formulation explains why the next election will be closer than it ought to be.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with shouting down a press conference either.
Because the protesters were so "well motivated."
Quite a few people believe violence only occurs when someone is hurt by physical action. Not so. If you stand there and poke my chest with a finger as we argue, I can have you arrested for assault. Same with splashing me with your drink.
Ann Althouse --
"And your metaphor discriminates against women."
Woman can't piss?
Is this the Madison mind-set? Is this what passes for liberalism around here?
This IS what liberalism is all about. Where have you been for the last 40 years?
It seems to me that a true liberal would never say that what is a crime (or a tort) depends on one's political orientation.
Why not? They say it's a baby or a fetus depending on the whims of the mother.
Roger J. said...
Professor: I am obviously clueless--please explain to me why my metaphor "discriminates against women" I simply dont see that at all, but would appreciate a more full explanation.
Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
Freud thinks primitive man preened himself on his ability to put out a fire with a stream of urine. A strange thing to be proud of but certainly beyond the scope of woman, who would scorch her hams in the process. Male urination is a kind of accomplishment, an arc of transcendence. A woman merely waters the ground she stands on. Male urination is a form of commentary...
Roger, women might not be able to write their names in the snow, but they can make quite a exclamation mark.
EDH: thanks for the explanation--I am clearly clueless in regards to these explanations
None so blind as they who will not see.....especially those who have the 'education' to see and remain willfully blind, eh?
Bad AllenS :)
Huxley, Orwell and Humpty Dumpty are all smiling
today after reading yet another vindication of their views about the power of words and their inventive use,, human nature and the progress of mankind--the latest confirmation being evidenced by Olnecks' letter..
Assault is the threat of violence.
Battery is the physical act.
Apparently the professor is okay with assault if battery can be plausibly denied.
I long ago noticed that many of the Madison liberals I knew fully supported criminalizing speech they disagreed with.
Forgetting for the moment all of the emotional baggage that goes along with "liberal" and "conservative" these days, is there a correct term for someone that would make illegal speech they don't agree with, or does it rely on what the original motivation to restrict that speech?
In other words, what would you label someone who would do so?
When the law is on your side, argue the law. When the facts are on your side, argue the facts.
When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, claim the law doesn't apply, omit facts, and preen like a relativist, leftist weenie.
Roger J. said...
Bad AllenS :)
Wrong. Bad AllenS !
Allen S: not sure what our hostess was talking about except that men, involved in a pissing contest can write their names in the snow--call it directional urination if you will--women, unless they are belly dancers cannot do that--probably pissing envy
We have so little left (no pun intended) in today's world. Please don't take snow writing away from us.
That was quite an exclamation mark, EDH. You win the pissing contest!
"And your metaphor discriminates against women."
Wait a second, do women not piss??
ScootM: precisely the function of beer--bigger bladders aid articulate snow writing with the appropriate sized reservoir
In other words, what would you label someone who would do so?
McCain-Feingold.
Quoted from another blogger today.
"All the characteristics of mob behavior set forth by Le Bon in 1895 are evident in modern liberalism…extreme black-and-white thinking…inability to follow logical arguments…a religious worship of their leaders, and a blind hatred of their opponents.
Many of liberals’ peculiarities are understandable only when one realizes that they are a mob. For example, a crowd’s ability to grasp only the simplest ideas is reflected in the interminable slogans…
Liberalism is mob mentality.
Professor Olneck? Is his first name Pens?
Professor Olneck? Is his first name Pens?
Bah-dump-bump.
@scott
Selectaverbalist?
Elucidoctrinaire?
Yammertarian?
Link to that letter doesn't work.
There was or is a female urinate-standing movement unassisted by infernal devices.
Apparently good aim can be achieved, at least by some women, probably depending on detailed anatomy.
Speaking as a physicist, you'd need the urine to separate from the body very quickly through the assistance of a sharp corner that it can't follow, and then you're in business.
"Professor: I am obviously clueless--please explain to me why my metaphor "discriminates against women" I simply dont see that at all, but would appreciate a more full explanation."
First, I'm being jocose, so don't fret.
Second, a real pissing contest would be a competition structured to favor men, and thus unfair to women.
Try
http://www.dailycardinal.com/opinion/letter-ceo-description-of-protests-innacurate-1.2596998
instead
Again...people spend 6 figures to have their children "educated" (or should I say 're-educated') at institutions like UW? Seems like such a waste of money. Certainly, staff like Professor Olneck are not preparing students for life outside the Madison city limits. Such a shame that half the WI state population is despised by the University meant for all.
"Is this what passes for liberalism around here? "
Yup...sure is...you just never noticed...or were afraid to see/admit it
Ann Althouse said...
Second, a real pissing contest would be a competition structured to favor men, and thus unfair to women.
No. If the pissing contest was structured so that the winner would be decided as to how far the contestant could piss backwards, then women would win every time. So, there's that fact.
Oh, but, there is this.
Professor: I figured you were but you got to stop using words like "jocose" My vocabulary is restricted to four letter words of anglo saxon origin--And as I said above: you are more than capable of responding to academic contretemps where the stakes are so small. thanks for getting back to me--much appreciated
Live long and prosper
AJ Lynch said...
Professor Olneck? Is his first name Pens?
Heartwarming video of the late, great Classy Freddie Blassie, "Pencil Neck Geek"
Back when I was a kid, life was going swell.
Till something happened, blew every thing to hell.
That night my daddy stumbled in, all pale and weak,
Said "A woman up the block just gave birth to a geek."
Mom said, "Sell it to the circus, what the heck."
Dad said, "Nope, this one's a pencil neck.
And if there's one thing lower than a side show freak,
It's a grit eatin', scum suckin', pencil neck geek."
You see if you take a pencil that won't hold lead,
Looks like a pipe cleaner attached to a head,
Add a buggy whip body with a brain that leaks,
You got yourself a grit eatin', pencil neck geek.
(chorus)
Pencil neck geek, grit eatin' freak,
scum suckin', pea head with a lousy physique.
He's a one man, no gut, loosing streak.
Nothin' but a pencil neck geek.
Soon the geeks were poppin' up all over town.
You couldn't hardly sneeze without knockin' one down.
After a nice juicy steak, if you need a toothpick,
Just reach for a geek, they'll do the trick.
One day we cut one up for fish bait.
Learned our lesson just a little bit late.
Soon as the geek hit the drink, the water turned red.
Next day, sure enough, all the fish were dead.
Most any night you know where I can be found.
Yeah, stomping some geek's head into the ground.
So keep the faith 'cause in Blassie you can trust,
I won't give up 'til the last geek bites the dust.
They say, "these geeks come a dime a dozen."
I'm lookin' for the guy who's supplin' the dimes.
Its gonna be real hard times for all of these
grit eatin',
scum suckin',
boot lickin',
drop kickin',
gut grindin',
nail bitin',
glue sniffin',
scab pickin',
butt scratchin',
egg hatchin',
sleezy,
smelly,
pepper bellied,
dirty, lousy, rotten, stinkin', freaks.
Nothing but a pencil neck geek.
Pencil neck geek.
Pencil neck geek.
Pencil neck geek.
@ jrberg3
Wait a second, do women not piss??
No. And we don't fart either.
I wonder what socio-economic and racial mix were the people working at the Doubletree.
Avierra: my experience with the fair sex is they really can rip them off--they just dont light them or say "nice one dude." :)
Can anyone explain why we need sociologists?
Aside from comic relief, that is.
pissing envy
I worked at a place many years ago and the boss' wife said a women could win a pissing contest with a man if the man could not use his hands while pissing.
We used to have the most interesting conversations.
I haven't followed the details about the incident, but was there any sizable contingent of blacks in the crowd of protesters? If so, I think advocates of AA need to think carefully about this situation compared with the demonstrations over the budget and union rights bill.
It's one thing to have a bunch of white people arguing with, and at times even getting a little physical with, a bunch of other white people, all worked up about budget issues. The optics are totally different when race is involved right? If a crowd composed partly of black people presses in on and gets aggressive with white people, isn't that terrible PR for the people who have blacks on their side?
I understand the emotion over this issue, on both sides, and it may not be fair, but don't blacks who are demonstrating have to be careful not to even convey a hint of physical threat, to avoid having their efforts tainted by the "angry black" stereotype? For example, Obama has long been lauded for his reserve and his ability to avoid projecting anything like that. Again, I admit there's a double standard at work here, but demonstrators against people like Clegg who have blacks in their midst do themselves no favors by engaging in rough tactics.
Can anyone explain why we need sociologists?
It give somebody the psychology staff can look down on.
@MayBee -- Touche.
And we don't fart either.
At least not until you've broken the barrier.
Ann Althouse --
"Second, a real pissing contest would be a competition structured to favor men, and thus unfair to women."
Well, you're wrong. It depends on the contest.
I've seen contests judged on style, on the resultant cursive and I've seen contests that were simply duration and/or projective ability.
A woman should have no problem with duration if she's not pregnant and I know for a fact they have no problem with the latter either.
It is FOS political hacks like this who infest our universities poisoning the minds of the sheep that attend classses there.
Avierra said...No. And we don't fart either.
My wife would like a word!
for the manager and Ms. Chavez to depict what occurred as the actions of a "mob" is an egregious slur on the students.
And depicting these attention-seekers as "students" is an egregious slur on real students.
Miss O: OK--mano a mano (so to speak) a limit of three beers and let the best bladder win
"Second, a real pissing contest would be a competition structured to favor men, and thus unfair to women."
Wouldn't that depend on the type of conest??
Time to think outside the box (so to speak)...
And we don't fart either.
Well, men don't queef, so you can just drop the 'tude, lady.
Interesting that this thread has become a pissing contest about pissing contests.
Chip: its a slow monday, guy--we could talk about Mr Obama's 1.5 trillion tax increase, but pissing contests are much more fun
Michael Olneck, Professor Emeritus of Educational Policy Studies and Sociology at UW-Madison
Seeing his title alone tells me the man cannot be believed. No need to read further. Is that sad? Yes it is.
I don't think those in "the academy" realize just how badly they've squandered their reputation - especially at UW Madison.
Shorter article:
"UW retiree Michael Olneck confirms virtually every detail of the incident at the Doubletree, but wishes it didn't look so bad."
Progressives.
Ends.
Means.
Old Story.
"Second, a real pissing contest would be a competition structured to favor men, and thus unfair to women."
Depends on the contest, but Madame you are clearly unaware of the prevalence or effects of prostate disease.
I wonder if the young rebellious Althouse in the 60's would give a shit about this splitting of hairs if she was in that mob fighting for "rights".
I get the point, but imagining a large group of active young people acting as we might think appropriate is the a kind of naivete one develops with age.
It might seem like that would be nice to see, but it's just not what being young is about.
When we also see the older people doing it in Madison, it's the immaturity of the leftist collectivist mind. They enjoy the reminiscent act of rebellion even more than they feel the message. "I'm still young!"
Women do not know the heartbreak of an englarged prostate. On the senior circuit, women do very well in pissing contests......A mob is any group of two or more people who express dissatisfaction with Obama or his policies. By definition this is not a mob.
All you have to do is, to use GodZero's line, "Get in their faces". It's all about intimidation and right out of Uncle Saul's book.
A bunch of screaming people does plenty of violence.
This, after all, is how the Lefties could brag, "they had hounded LBJ out of office".
Ann Althouse said...
@Roger J At the University of Wisconsin, we call it "sifting and winnowing." Not "a pissing contest."
And your metaphor discriminates against women.
Not if they lay on their backs and wear a skirt with no undies.
Roger J. said...
Allen S: not sure what our hostess was talking about except that men, involved in a pissing contest can write their names in the snow--call it directional urination if you will--women, unless they are belly dancers cannot do that--probably pissing envy
I'll bet there are more than a few exotic dancers and, uh, performance artists that can, as well.
Now, the left is redefining violence. Pushing your way past someone trying to deny you entry is violence. Do that at the front door os someone's house in most states and they can legally shoot you (to death). It's obvious where the professor's sentiments lay.
How long to someone gets seriously injured? Who will they blame then? When will it be safe for a conservative or libertarian to have dinner at a restuarant in Madison?
As I said yesterday: Madison is a hellhole of left wing idiocy, violence and hatred.
William: you are obivously unaware that only breat cancer is the paramount issue--things like BHP and prostate cancer are not politically correct. Tits over peckers anytime
As to the mob question, I think this photo pretty much answers the question.
Tits over peckers anytime
OK. There's a mental image for the rest of the day.
PPS Also women who have done their Kugel exercises.
Even the UW Athletic Department has a diversity program. Their photo has nine blacks and one white. Now that's diversity!
I was looking for the majors of the football players, but that could be top secret (embarrassing) information.
"And we don't fart either".
The glass ceiling just took a smudge.
Any questions about who would win a pissing contest between Michelle and Barack?
I don't think those in "the academy" realize just how badly they've squandered their reputation - especially at UW Madison.
Exactly. I am so torn because I love Wisconsin, but despise Madison. What a shame. How about businesses boycott hiring any UW Grads?
DBQ: this is why I love you baby cakes--cut to the chase. And i was not talking about visuals here, only episteological issues ( but the visuals are much more fun)
"Professor Emeritus of Educational Policy Studies and Sociology"
Pretty well tells us all we need to know about this genital wart of the ass of the US.
Not just one, but two disciplines that are completely useless.
John Henry
"Paw, Sallie Mae's boyfriend Jethro wrote his name in the snow last night."
"What's so bad about that, Maw?"
"It was in Sallie Mae's handwriting."
From Vance Randolph's book of folk humor "Stiff as a Poker"
(From memory so it may not be word for word)
John Henry
Not just one, but two disciplines that are completely useless.
The American spirit desperately needs a frontier.
Ends justifying the means.. again
a most memorable thread, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times--I am off to regain the level of frustration that comes from playing a round of golf--To all a most memorable day and godspeed
Roger,
If a drive falls in the woods, does it break a club in half?
Scott M--was almost gone but your post got me--I do not measure my golf score in par but if I can keep the same ball thru a round--so far, four rounds with the same ball--good on me. My par? nahh not relevant :) I have low expecations
I believe I may have mentioned this before, but I would never, under any circumstance, hire someone who graduated from UofW at Madison.
And did I not read that the invasion of the hotel was conducted through an employee entrance or somewhere other than the lobby of the hotel where the Emeritus of Bullshit observed the un-mob?
Dollars to dog doo this guy is a pencil necked geek on top of it all. Yet, imagine the frisson what with all those excited, sweaty students pushing forward into the lair of the racist, capitalist insect. My goodness. It makes one want to take a knee - or in this case give a knee- to the groin.
Exactly. I am so torn because I love Wisconsin, but despise Madison
Here's an idea: Don't live or visit Madison. Genius eh?
Fun couple of the day: Michael Olneck and Sara Goldrick-Rab.
The old geezer gazes upon the storming of the Doubletree and sees his glory days at Columbia, when the world was young and revolution was in the air.
"... a real pissing contest would be a competition structured to favor men, and thus unfair to women."
Not if accuracy is the goal.
Sorepaw: That keeps getting more and more funny every time you post it. Keep up the great commentary! Who says conservatives aren't funny?
"Here's an idea: Don't live or visit Madison. Genius eh?"
And if you white people don't like our racist policies, then don't apply to our university.
Mobs, racism, exclusion, intimidation, corruption
Garage, your people have come a long way and you are finally "The Man". We love your ruling principles so far. They are cool and very retro.
From MarkG's link at 10:27am:
"The Athletic Department recognizes student-athletes and staff of diverse backgrounds which include but are not limited to individuals of color (African-American, Hispanic, Asian or Pacific Islander and American Indian), those who identify as LGBTQA (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, and Ally) and individuals with disabilities."
Then look at the photo. Hilarious!
"Even the UW Athletic Department has a diversity program. Their photo has nine blacks and one white. Now that's diversity!"
The longer you verk there, diverse it gets.
Garbage Mahal: I wouldn't spend a dollar in Madison. Which makes our collective economic impact on the city about the same, because I'm sure you don't have a dollar in your pocket, unless it was given to you by somebody else.
Sorepaw - be careful, garage will accuse you of living in a backwater bog.
Hey Garbage Mahal: What's on daytime television today? Update us later on Judge Mathis or something. I miss all those shows while I working making lots of $$$.
those who identify as LGBTQA (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, and Ally)
What is "Ally"?
And why "queer"? Isn't that redundant?
John Henry
men, involved in a pissing contest can write their names in the snow
Everybody says this, but how many have actually tried it? Not as easy s it sounds.
And if you white people don't like our racist policies, then don't apply to our university.
You really are a fucking dope. Just clueless. But I know you are actually trying, and there is something to be said about that.
Here's an idea: Don't live or visit Madison. Genius eh?
If you hear the protest chant that the capitol in Madison is "our house," the protesters literally mean it as their house. So stay away.
And why "queer"? Isn't that redundant?
It's all about what name you want to call yourself. Self-identification, see? The underlying reality (outmoded concept) is not relevant.
So Linda Chavez was right, right?
Here's an idea: Don't live or visit Madison.
Back in the 60s, it used to be that "Love it or leave it" was a rightwing slogan that the left was contemptuous of.
wv: haulacen. As in the welfare state is a mass haulacen nation.
Is this what passes for liberalism around here?
It’s what passes for liberalism everywhere.
Backwards......? oh, OOOH! backwards!
I was looking for the majors of the football players, but that could be top secret (embarrassing) information.
You didn't look very hard. If you look at the roster, and click on the individual players, you can see some majors. I suspect whether it's there or not depends on the player. Nick Toon's major is listed, and so is Josh Oglesby's (the two seniors I looked at).
Ann, it is articles like these -- arguably against your own interests -- that show you are trustworthy and arguing in good faith. I may disagree with you but I need not parse each word to ferret out lies or misrepresentations. Thank you for creating this blog where such vigorous dialogue can take place.
You didn't look very hard. If you look at the roster, and click on the individual players, you can see some majors.
You're right, I didn't look too hard. The second one I clicked had nothing listed. The third was "undeclared" in his junior year. I gave up.
Oh yeah, and the major is something some players add in their "personal" narrative if they want. It's not a factor, otherwise. (His height and weight are though).
Linda Chavez is vindicated!
I clicked through the first ten. One major listed.
I clicked through the first ten. One major listed.
Only one upperclassman in the first ten on the roster. Look at the Seniors. I think they're more likely to know what they are actually majoring in (My freshman daughter doesn't know what she's majoring in yet either).
On the basketball team, all the seniors (all 2 of them!) list a major.
Well, shut my mouth. I didn't look at all of them, but I didn't see any senior football players majoring in Education Policy Studies and Sociology. So then who majors in that?
Back in the 60s, it used to be that "Love it or leave it" was a rightwing slogan that the left was contemptuous of.
That slogan was aimed at citizens, not tourists (as in this case).
Olneck is not unusual in our academia. American academia is overwhelmingly lefty, indeed, it is hard for an academic to get hired, published, and eventually get tenure if you are not lefty. Most lefty academics are probably not extremely lefty but are just playing the game (because to do otherwise is career suicide). Most people are not very brave so I get why most academics play along.
What is less understandable is why state Republican parties put up with this crap at the state level. Why should tax payer money be used to subsidize lefty intolerance and discrimination against conservatives at state universities?
Education Policy Studies and Sociology. So then who majors in that?
(laugh) It appears to be a Masters' or PhD only type major. But you can get an undergraduate certificate. The list of courses is about what you'd expect (Love that their website is 4+ years out of date -- typical for a soft science). I see Prof. Olneck's class required a student to read Deculturalization and the Struggle for Equality.
Read Erving Goffman's _Asylums to see what sociology can be, entertaining and informative.
Goffman worked by irony. It's very hard to see what you see with. Some trope is necessary.
Nothing denies the terrible dullness of most sociology.
And your metaphor discriminates against women.
Women don't piss?
"Is this the Madison mind-set? Is this what passes for liberalism around here? It seems to me that a true liberal ..."
... and BINGO. You just hit the nail on the head.
They're not liberals, Ann!
These Democrats are fucking violent fascists who, if left in power, would begin burning their political enemies in large ovens.
That's why we have to stop them. That's why they have to be removed from power all over the country.
As quickly as we can.
Professor: I am obviously clueless--please explain to me why my metaphor "discriminates against women" I simply dont see that at all, but would appreciate a more full explanation.
Oh, sigh.
I actually got the joke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pissing_contest
A pissing contest conventionally requires the ability to aim, an area in which women are handicapped without prosthetic assistance.
We're all sociologists. That's why we're here.
...the hell you say...
I wonder if the young rebellious Althouse in the 60's would give a shit about this splitting of hairs if she was in that mob fighting for "rights".
I wonder if you'd like to be tied forever to every stupid-ass thought you had at 20?
Gods know I wouldn't.
Sorepaw: That keeps getting more and more funny every time you post it.
You're just jealous.
I wonder if you'd like to be tied forever to every stupid-ass thought you had at 20?
I would love to relive some of the stupid things I did at 20, but I don't remember most of their names or how to get a hold of them these days.
Make all the actions exactly the same, but change the political viewpoints. Would you then use the words "mob" and "physically violent"?
You're assuming that he has the psychological ability to see a situation from somebody else's viewpoint, and to empathize accordingly. This is a trait that I seldom see in social scientists. If you're well-adjusted and typical for the society in which you live, they really have no use for you.
sifting and winnowing
A most inapt phrase, as I reckon it highlights more than its makers intended.
Sifting has two meanings, one involving searching and sorting for some characteristic, the other (as anyone who spent time in the kitchen with Mom knows), creating a melange of ingredients each of which is now indistinguishable. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
Winnowing also has two meanings: separating the wheat from the chaff; and in evolutionary biology, characteristics mismatched for the ecosystem die out.
They want you to think the first sifting meaning, but they really mean the second.
As for winnowing, they have the juvenile arrogance to believe that they can identify the chaff. Whereas, in evolutionary biology, we learn that a gene unsuitable for today, can be highly selected for tomorrow. And that species with lots of variation, are better able to withstand the ever-coming changes in environment. And that no one knows a priori which genes confer selective advantage for today, and which for tomorrow. Hence, Idiocracy. Or, by Dennett and Dawkins, it is not clear if intelligence is a successful characteristic.
Typical progressive claptrap. We know what's right. Join us, or we will kill you.
More and more, I am coming to the conclusion that I will not pay for my children to attend the standard universities. I will only pay for the specialized ones [eek!, for-profit], where the product is restricted to known topics of enduring and tangible value.
Orwell (who knew them well): The first thing that must strike any outside observer is that Socialism in its developed form is a theory confined entirely to the middle classes. The typical Socialist is not, as tremulous old ladies imagine, a ferocious-looking working man with greasy overalls and a raucous voice. He is either a youthful snob-Bolshevik who in five years' time will quite probably have made a wealthy marriage and been converted to Roman Catholicism; or, still more typically, a prim little man with a white-collar job, usually a secret teetotaller and often with vegetarian leanings, with a history of Nonconformity behind him, and, above all, with a social position which he has no intention of forfeiting.
This last type is surprisingly common in Socialist parties of every shade; it has perhaps been taken over en bloc from the old Liberal Party. In addition to this there is the horrible—the really disquieting—prevalence of cranks wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.
One day this summer I was riding through Letchworth when the bus stopped and two dreadful-looking old men got on to it. They were both about sixty, both very short, pink, and chubby, and both hatless. One of them was obscenely bald, the other had long grey hair bobbed in the Lloyd George style. They were dressed in pistachio-coloured shirts and khaki shorts into which their huge bottoms were crammed so tightly that you could study every dimple. Their appearance created a mild stir of horror on top of the bus.
The man next to me, a commercial traveller I should say, glanced at me, at them, and back again at me, and murmured "Socialists," as who should say, "Red Indians." He was probably right—the I.L.P. were holding their summer school at Letchworth. But the point is that to him, as an ordinary man, a crank meant a Socialist and a Socialist meant a crank.
Writ Small wrote:
The well-intentioned are blameless.
"I meant well."
"a true liberal would never say that what is a crime (or a tort) depends on one's political orientation."
Well..that's kinda the problem at the core of affirmative action, ennit?
All together with the U-Mad fight song..to the Village People's YMCA:
U...M A D! It's fun to play at the U...M A Dee-ee. It's fun to play at the U...M A Dee-ee.
You can act like a fool. You can make your own rules...cause the world revolves just round U.
@jrberg3
Wait a second, do women not piss??
Most certainly not!
*Clutching pearls*
Women shake dew from the lilly.
It seems to me that a true liberal would never say that what is a crime (or a tort) depends on one's political orientation.
They're not liberals. They're leftists who've hijacked what was once a useful, meaningful word because there would be uncomfortable associations with the leftist label.
Is this the Madison mind-set? Is this what passes for liberalism around here?
Yes. It's why Madison is both joke and punchline to those of us who live outside Dane County.
Look closely at the Badger Herald tape, beginning at around 2:58. (http://badgerherald.com/news/2011/09/13/student_turnout_high.php) The concentration of students made Mr. Clegg's exit difficult, NOT anyone trying to prevent him from leaving. Near the corner of the door toward which Mr. Clegg was walking a student was entering, and clapping her hands over her head. She was standing in the path Mr. Clegg was taking, appears to have looked momentarily toward the individual leading Mr. Clegg out, but was mainly looking toward the front center of the room. She was shoved by the individual leading Mr. Clegg, and she turned, in apparent surprise at having been shoved, and indeed, "got in the face" of the individual who pushed her. Other students pulled her away immediately, and Mr. Clegg walked toward the elevator bank. No-one was held "hostage."
Their loud chanting forced an end to the press conference and then they forced their way into the room?
That is mob action, and the Doubletree manager was entirely correct to characterize it as a mob.
That professor is a real tool.
Also an idiot.
. . .Professor Olneck. Make all the actions exactly the same, but change the political viewpoints. Would you then use the words "mob" and "physically violent"?
Oh man, slam dunk. Pose this to his face and Professor Pencilneck, er, I mean, Olneck, would blow a fuse like Robby the Robot trying to come up with a response. Lovely, just lovely, Ann.
I suspect Ann has come out on top in her share of pissing contests.
"It seems to me that a true liberal would never say that what is a crime (or a tort) depends on one's political orientation."
I assume you are referring to the classic concept of "liberal" when you make this statement. In our current political discourse, it is one of the hallmarks of "liberal" thinking to make the claim that crime is dependent upon one's political orientation.
It is also a hallmark of liberal thinking to deny such a double standard exists.
I probably should quit when I'm already behind, but I want to clarify a few more points.
CEO and Mr. Clegg did not come to Madison to debate the merits of our admissions policy or to simply share the results of their work. If they had, they would have shared their report with UW social scientists in advance, and engaged with them about the very real questions of technical quality and interpretation the report raises.
They did not come here to "sift and winnow," or to express an opinion. The CEO is not engaged in an academic discussion. It is using its considerable power and resources to attack and attempt to dismantle the policies that make possible the attendance of a pitifully small number of students of color at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Mr. Clegg was here to incite opposition to the UW’s policies and procedures. During the press conference, he explicitly encouraged action by the governor to use his power of appointment to the Board of Regents to end UW’s present policies and practices. He held up the specter of lawsuits. I cannot recall if he explicitly encouraged legislative action, but already State Representative Stephen Nass, who chairs the committee charged with higher education policy, has announced his intention to initiate legislative hearings into UW-Madison’s admissions policies and procedures. This was an assault on the UW that has far more force behind it than the student protesters exhibited.
That said, despite possible appearances and others'claims to the contrary, I was not defending the conduct of the protest. I was not happy with the conduct of the protest, but that is not the immediate issue. I was defending it against what I saw, and continue to see, as scurrilous charges about mob violence and physical assaults, and the use of those charges to stigmatize the positions held by the protesters. Nothing I said should be taken to mean that I think that if protesters are well-meaning, or if a cause is one I believe in, I am okay with any and all kinds of protest action. I am not, and never have been.
It had to come to this. The esteemed readership is designing a Title IX pissing contest (including some anatomically unhelpful proposals like pissing backwards).
Is this the Madison mind-set? Is this what passes for liberalism around here?
This is what Democracy looks like.(tm)
I don't know how anyone could call this readership "esteemed" wellington, based on these comments, anyway!
michael: I want to clarify a few more points. CEO and Mr. Clegg did not come to Madison to debate the merits of our admissions policy or to simply share the results of their work. If they had, they would have [done x]
Wow Micheal. We're so forutunate that you came by to declare the intentions of CEO and Mr. Clegg.
For your next trick, I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10....
action by the governor to use his power of appointment to the Board of Regents... the specter of lawsuits... encouraged legislative action...to initiate legislative hearings.. This was an assault on the UW that has far more force behind it than the student protesters exhibited.
Seriously? You find civil remedies to be more "violent" than the student protestors?
Orwell: "some ideas are so foolish, only an intellectual could believe them"
Or perhaps its your mind's exposure to Sociology.
SOP for the Left has always been that the usual rules don't apply when they're "speaking truth to power" or some self-justifying BS. The ancestors of today's liberals are not the 60s liberals. This is Lenin's "end justifies the means" crowd.
Michael exposes himself as a fool with his insistence that the metaphorical "force" of introducing ideas was "far more" force than that used by the matrauding mob shoving employees to the ground, disrupting a conference and chasing it's principals into hiding. Moral relativism is really moral cowardice, and Mikey here is the poster child.
I find it funny that people are willing to call a distinguished professor names, behind the anonymity of their blogger profiles. If you're going to throw mud, at least be willing to put your name on it: put up, or shut up. It is also important to note that NONE of you were there to see anything. Rather, you are all basing your opinion on conjecture. What we're looking at here is a "he said, she said" argument. Show us some video. Get those employees who were knocked over to go on the record. Until someone provides those proofs: can it.
Finally, I would hope Professor Althouse would take a long, hard look at the fact that one cannot pick and choose the oppressions we find abhorrent. For example, decrying sexist remarks but not calling out blatantly racist ones is not only disingenuous, but is also discrediting. Until she, and everyone else, realizes that all oppressions are bound up together, no oppression will be overcome. Sexism is a symptom of unequal power relationships between men and women, the end result being men hold societal power over women. This is reinforced in social systems, etc. Professor Althouse: please stop picking your oppressions to be aghast at. Realize that all oppressions are interrelated, and call them out as they happen; not just the ones you're most sensitive to. (Hint: it makes your responses all the more powerful when people realize you're not obscenely biased.)
Oops. I thought I was signed into another account. My name is Ryan Adserias. I am a doctoral student at Professor Althouse's university.
I find it funny that white professors cling desperately to their jobs rather than giving way to far more "oppressed" minority applicants. That these professors don't care a whit about the hundreds of Wisconsin kids rejected by the system simply becuase of their skin color goes without saying. Retroactive retributive justice administered 6 generations too late. Brilliant!
Let me guess... Educational Policy Studies and/or Sociology.
Ryan, don't give Althouse a lecture about credibility. She's made a name for herself.
All you've done in your life so far is jack-off. And from reading your post, you seem to never take a break from it.
That Crafty Penguin Ryan Adserias writes things like this in his free time:
"Just because a bunch of backward bumpkins were able to drag themselves to the polls in their buggies on Tuesday ..."
"... you'll also help avoid that sexually-transmitted uterine parasite called a fetus."
... but he would like for Althouse to stop being "obscenely biased".
Heh. You made my day, Penguin.
Having spent over 57 years in the workforce, in mostly nontraditional female jobs, it seems to me that Prof Althouse is limiting her vision of women's abilty.
Having been warned to "not get in a pissing contest with a skunk" by my Grandpa...I've had to hold my nose to hold my own. There is always a way to reframe the contest, and there in lies the strength of the woman and her abilty to compete with man. We must harness the physics of the universe in our favor: add contest qualifiers beyond distance...such as volume, velocity, color...odor if you have the stomach for it! Whatever it takes to create the even playing field we all desire.
@Crafty Penquin...the world must feel like sandpaper against your skin every day, requiring yourself and others to respond to all oppressions. I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
Here's Ryan PhD research: My research focus is on equity and inclusion issues for LGBTQ-identified faculty, staff, and administrators.
Ryan probably plans on a 40-year career in oppression. God forbid there'd be any less of it before he retires, or he may have to go back to deep-frying potatoes.
Charles Willeford's memoir Something about a Soldier (1986) has a very graphic, very funny account of a pissing contest won by a woman in the Philippines (page 103 in the Ballantine paperback). He does say the ladies need to practice, but if they are in competition condition, they can beat us guys by four to five feet, easily.
Gerry,
As a psychologist, I agree with you completely.
Roger J.,
You obviously know that you are a little prick, in more ways than one. Why advertise it?
Ann,
I am no longer jealous of that Meade fellow. I found my true love in a younger woman. (A 59 year-old babe). Please enjoy yourselves.
All my best,
F.
Sexism is caused by men holding societal power over women? Apparently Craftypenguin slept through the last 3 decades. Duke Lacrosse rape hoax anyone? The Group of 88 were right about one thing at least: what happened at Duke was indeed symbolic of larger problems in society.
His on-topic argument is just as flawed: in the professor's own words he admits participating in a violent mob.
I don't need to see the video to know it was a violent mob because both sides agree that the group of people in question behaved like a violent mob.
Until she, and everyone else, realizes that all oppressions are bound up together, no oppression will be overcome. Sexism is a symptom of unequal power relationships between men and women, the end result being men hold societal power over women. This is reinforced in social systems, etc.
Is this part of the special language you learn when studying LGBTQ Issues in Higher Education
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