Althouse: Obama, the boys' club man who, on graduating from Harvard Law School, felt drawn into "personal journaling."

September 29, 2011

Obama, the boys' club man who, on graduating from Harvard Law School, felt drawn into "personal journaling."

In a diavlog about Obama's problem with women, I'm trying to figure out what makes a man a man's man, especially when the man isn't all that manly:

131 comments:

Methadras said...: Being a man's man is innate. You can't fake it and you can't pretend that you are. It will become instantly obvious to other men whether they consider you a man or not. In that regard, men aren't as judgmental about it though. However, you will be treated differently and pushed off to a different category. Women on the other hand may not be as forgiving.; 9/29/11, 10:19 AM
The Dude said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/29/11, 10:24 AM
Scott M said...: In a diavlog about Obama's problem with women, I'm trying to figure out what makes a man a man's man, especially when the man isn't all that manly:

When we wake up and "rediscover" what it is to be a "man's man", the academics will all sprint to be the first to coin a new phrase trying for a Nobel in socieology, followed closely by their lapdogs in the media trying to win a Pulitzer.; 9/29/11, 10:24 AM
Chip S. said...: I've lost track of why we're supposed to care about any of this.; 9/29/11, 10:29 AM
Fred4Pres said...: A man's man (at least my definition) is a man who I would be proud to be like and who I would apire to be. A mench. Gravatis. Macho. Call it what you like. But it is more than merely mojo.

There are certain men of immense character who fit that description. Even flawed men who, while you would not think of them as being particullary of high character, still have that quality in sufficient quantity. It is hard to define, but ultimately they are men who when the going gets tough follow the correct but more difficult path. Methadras is correct, it cannot be faked.; 9/29/11, 10:32 AM
bagoh20 said...: Obama is not a man's man. It takes a man to tell you who is. You can see it in puberty and even before. He never was. Both Bushes, and McCain were. Saddam was too. It's no indication of goodness, just willingness.; 9/29/11, 10:32 AM
Lucius said...: Certainly Robert Gibbs is no man's man. He looks like Karl Rove's sweaty, sex criminal lost twin.

And Axelrod? I can see why the women chose to bitch about Larry & Rahm instead: less shame in pleading lost stature to alpha dogs like those than a couple of baldilocks hs guidance counselor wannabes.; 9/29/11, 10:35 AM
Chip S. said...: How about this?

A man's man: You'd trust him with your life, and you'd trust him with your wife.

Just lookin' for something pithy.; 9/29/11, 10:35 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "I've lost track of why we're supposed to care about any of this."

Because Ron Suskind's book about power playing in the White House recounted the story of women in positions of power who felt the men, including Obama, excluded them from participation, that it was what in private business would be actionable sexual harassment, and that they held group meetings developing their theory and ultimately confronted Obama with it (at a dinner that was scheduled on the day of the Fort Hood massacre and not cancelled). Obama listened, then inform the women that he needed Rahm, and that was that. According to Amy, the women were afraid to say who oppressed them the most: Gibbs and Axelrod. They were afraid to say it because they knew how important those 2 men were to Obama. They couldn't bear to threaten him with the idea of backing away from his very very best buddies.; 9/29/11, 10:35 AM
madAsHell said...: Wow!

Contemplating BO's "psycho-sexual persona"....Do you really think it's that complicated? It really has nothing to do with him. It was white people with guilt.

His run to the presidency should have flamed out....like Huntsman, or McCotter, or Nader, or Stassen.

When do you find time to grade papers??; 9/29/11, 10:36 AM
bagoh20 said...: you interrupted that other woman every time she spoke.

Alpha female doing her job.

A woman's woman.; 9/29/11, 10:36 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Certainly Robert Gibbs is no man's man. He looks like Karl Rove's sweaty, sex criminal lost twin. And Axelrod? I can see why the women chose to bitch about Larry & Rahm instead: less shame in pleading lost stature to alpha dogs like those than a couple of baldilocks hs guidance counselor wannabes."

Ha ha. See the comment I was writing when you were writing that.; 9/29/11, 10:38 AM
bagoh20 said...: "You'd trust him with your life, and you'd trust him with your wife."

But can you trust your wife with HIM?; 9/29/11, 10:38 AM
ricpic said...: A man's man doesn't go looking for validation.; 9/29/11, 10:41 AM
ricpic said...: A man's man doesn't go looking for validation.; 9/29/11, 10:41 AM
ricpic said...: Also, a man's man doesn't double post.; 9/29/11, 10:41 AM
bagoh20 said...: "They couldn't bear to threaten him with the idea of backing away from his very very best buddies."

If you reversed the sexes of all the actors, wouldn't it all happen the same way.

"that it was what in private business would be actionable sexual harassment"

Only because the dissed were female. That's unequal protection and discriminatory.; 9/29/11, 10:43 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Obama is not a man's man. It takes a man to tell you who is.

There you have it.

Women speculating on what is a "man's man" are just wasting their time.

There is no way for a woman to understand it, categorize it or define it. It is like cats trying to understand dogs. It is like porn. You can't define it but you know what it looks like when you see it.; 9/29/11, 10:44 AM
deborah said...: At the very root of everything is SEX. I don't just mean intercourse, but mothering, resistance to and resentament of mothering, love and need for mother, dad stuff, wanting sex so bad you'll jump through hoops for it, always there between males and females as co-workers, in hierarchies, counselor situations, speeding tickets, message board posting, it all revolves around sex.; 9/29/11, 10:44 AM
Chip S. said...: But can you trust your wife with HIM?

Hmmm...

It was the kid who yelled "Shane, come back!" But the wife was thinkin' it.; 9/29/11, 10:47 AM
deborah said...: "A man's man: You'd trust him with your life, and you'd trust him with your wife."

Eh, not so much the last part, I think.

But it reminds me to the joke where the man was messing around with his best friend's wife until his best friend died. After that is would be dishonorable to screw your dead best friend's wife.; 9/29/11, 10:48 AM
MayBee said...: Axelrod looks like he should be wearing a leisure suit and hitting on skirts at some seedy hotel lounge. Women aren't going to respond well to that in the first place, so if he's brusque on top of that, he just isn't going to be likeable.; 9/29/11, 10:49 AM
bagoh20 said...: A man's man is the guy who organizes Chuck Norris's sock drawer.; 9/29/11, 10:49 AM
deborah said...: Ricpic, I think at the root of it all everyone is looking for validation (and sex, hee hee).; 9/29/11, 10:50 AM
edutcher said...: If Ann is on to something, it may lead to vindicating those people who say GodZero's in the closet.

Over the years, it's been speculated that some very "masculine" men, such as Bonaparte and Cecil Rhodes, have been homosexual because they were always shown in the company of men; since Nap is only in paintings, this may be harder to prove in his case, but Rhodes, in photos, is always in the company of young, good-looking men.

But Zero is hardly a man's man. He's 100% metrosexual. John Kerry wanted people to think he was a man's man, but he clearly isn't.

I think Fred is right in that the phrase may have originate by observing those qualities in a given man that make other men want to emulate him, but I have to say bag's got it when he says Dubya was a lot closer than Zero.

PS For a long time, however, a man's man has been just a euphemism for a macho guy, especially one who put it on, without necessarily the redeeming qualities behind it - such as bag's selection of Saddam.

Kind of like a ladies' man, which, I presume, was one who initially was observed to have qualities women admired, but eventually became a euphemism for a serial seducer.; 9/29/11, 10:51 AM
rhhardin said...: I hold the moron theory of Obama's psychosexual persona.; 9/29/11, 10:51 AM
Chip S. said...: @Althouse--Oh, that.

If it's true that Valerie Jarrett and Michelle are highly influential, as the WH gossip suggests, then maybe you should consider this a problem he has with white women. Like his mother and grandmother.

Personally, I don't find this stuff all that interesting, unless Bev Perdue's thinking about replacing the next election with an intervention.; 9/29/11, 10:51 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/29/11, 10:51 AM
bagoh20 said...: You can always spot a man's man by their pore spelling.; 9/29/11, 10:52 AM
Scott M said...: "You'd trust him with your life, and you'd trust him with your wife."

If he were to punch you in the face, you’d have to fight off the urge to thank him.; 9/29/11, 10:53 AM
DADvocate said...: Obama's a man's man? In what universe?

He found his way to power by appealing to the largest voting block, women. A bunch of other metrosexuals joined him in that quest.; 9/29/11, 10:53 AM
chickelit said...: Is Althouse a woman's woman?; 9/29/11, 10:53 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I mean I know what "I" (as a woman) think is a man's man. I think my husband is in that group. Manly man. (which just made me think of this)

But, that doesn't mean that men think the same way about a man as women do. If you did how would we know. You guys don't go around articulating that kind of stuff (that I know of).

People just know these things instinctually and act accordingly.

Obama makes my gaydar go off.; 9/29/11, 10:53 AM
bagoh20 said...: BTW men only like a man's man slightly more than a girly man. Both need to be destroyed at the first opportunity.; 9/29/11, 10:54 AM
Chip S. said...: @Deborah--Big difference between a man's man and a ladies' man.

This "man's man" thing has got to put integrity at the top of the list of traits. Also loyalty to the tribe. IMO, anyway.; 9/29/11, 10:54 AM
chickelit said...: You can always tell a Harvard man but you can't tell him much.; 9/29/11, 10:54 AM
rhhardin said...: You never see Obama in plaids.; 9/29/11, 10:55 AM
bagoh20 said...: "He found his way to power by appealing to the largest voting block, women."

It's even worse, he started out by robbing the woman who beat him by getter her disqualified. Not a man's man move.; 9/29/11, 10:56 AM
chickelit said...: Wasn't Sebastian Cabot's Mr. French the paradigm of a man's man?; 9/29/11, 10:56 AM
edutcher said...: Gentleman's gentleman.

What are you, an American or something?; 9/29/11, 10:58 AM
bagoh20 said...: Have you seen the photo comparison of Rick Perry vs Obama in their 20's?

There you go.; 9/29/11, 11:00 AM
bagoh20 said...: "Is Althouse a woman's woman?"

Don't ask me - I don't understand the regular kind, let alone the high octane.; 9/29/11, 11:02 AM
deborah said...: No, he was a gentleman's gentleman.; 9/29/11, 11:03 AM
ricpic said...: SEX!

I just thought I'd post that to make deborah happy. ;^); 9/29/11, 11:04 AM
rcocean said...: Lots of our Presidents liked to be surrounded by women & socialize with them:

Wilson
FDR (also a Mamas boy)
Carter
Clinton

OTHOH, many were a Man's Man:

Ike
Truman
Hoover
Nixon
Bush I
Ford
JFK

Reagan liked to do man's stuff on vacation, but only liked being his family. Of course, he was in his 70s.; 9/29/11, 11:05 AM
ricpic said...: Althouse is a womanly woman...if I may be so bold.; 9/29/11, 11:06 AM
Chip S. said...: ScottM--You mean, like this?; 9/29/11, 11:07 AM
deborah said...: Chip, I don't mean ladies man or Shane-type honorable guy.

To me a man's man is a 'real man' who is really cool. Like John Wayne or Troop :D

Any man SHOULD refrain from messing around with his best friend's wife.; 9/29/11, 11:08 AM
ricpic said...: The only man's man on rcocean's list is Ford.; 9/29/11, 11:08 AM
deborah said...: Thanks, ricpic, I needed that!; 9/29/11, 11:09 AM
ricpic said...: And Reagan. A definite man's man.; 9/29/11, 11:11 AM
deborah said...: Althouse, and I mean this as a compliment, is like a geisha. She holds interest with her intelligence, while also exciting the male's protective/courtly instincts.; 9/29/11, 11:13 AM
Henry said...: I like Fred4Pres's description, but I think a man's man has a different connotation than mensch.

In The Apartment Jack Lemmon is in no way a man's man. But he does become, in the end, a mensch.

He doesn't exemplify any kind of alpha leadership or external toughness or enviable skill. In the end he is the same bumbling, naive, Jack Lemmon, but with character.

Character counts most.; 9/29/11, 11:15 AM
Trooper York said...: Being a man is like being cool.

You don't have to think about it.

You don't talk about it.

You don't worry about it.

You just be it.; 9/29/11, 11:15 AM
Trooper York said...: You know who was a real man?

Bob Cratchit.; 9/29/11, 11:16 AM
The Dude said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/29/11, 11:19 AM
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...: Axelrod looks like he should be wearing a leisure suit and hitting on skirts at some seedy hotel lounge

Axelrod looks like a mortician, the kind that would steal the gold fillings from a corpse.

Can't imagine the women having a problem with Rahm. He seems like he'd scream profanities at them as equally as he'd cuss at any man.; 9/29/11, 11:19 AM
Carol_Herman said...: I'll give obama credit for being the center of attention, even when he was graduating from harvard! (People have fewer memories of JFK being there, for instance. And, in Teddy Kennedy's "record" there were two episodes where he got caught cheating. How? Others went in to take his tests.)

If those walls could talk!

And, today, having to make hay out of obama's old harvard "boy's club" ... it's because he has managed to stay behind all the other breaking events now ... in Europe.

Where IF the EURO keeps paying off bailout money to bankers ... the only money they've got now, belongs to Americans!

The European PONZI scheme should fail on its face. But no one's giving it the hook. (Yet.); 9/29/11, 11:21 AM
Brian O'Connell said...: LBJ was a man's man.

JFK, Nixon, no way. JFK was a ladies' man, and Nixon was too smart & paranoid to be a man's man- and he resented the fact that he wasn't.

Reagan might have been, but he might have been acting too.; 9/29/11, 11:22 AM
Trooper York said...: I don't agree Sixty. Sometimes being a man is eating shit to feed your family. Not every body can be a macho man and say screw it and let his family starve.

Being a real man comes in a lot of shapes and sizes.

One size does not fit all.

I always admired Bob Crachit.; 9/29/11, 11:26 AM
Scott M said...: Scrooge was a man. Cratchit was his bitch.

There are two "Man's Man" characters in that story. The first is Scrooge's original boss and the second is Scrooge's brother. Scrooge was, well, Scrooge, and Cratchit was weak, having more children than he could provide for.; 9/29/11, 11:28 AM
Trooper York said...: I remember in the sixties when a lot of the guys like my uncles had to eat shit to shape up in a gang to work on the docks. They were tough "manly" men. But they had to eat shit to feed their family.

There is nothing tougher than restraining your fervent desire to blow it up when somebody is dissing you because you have to keep your job. Just sayn'; 9/29/11, 11:29 AM
edutcher said...: bagoh20 said...

Have you seen the photo comparison of Rick Perry vs Obama in their 20's?

Netanyahu was there first.

After he handed Barry his lunch in front of the whole world.

deborah said...

Althouse, and I mean this as a compliment, is like a geisha. She holds interest with her intelligence, while also exciting the male's protective/courtly instincts.

I think you have nailed the appeal of the blog to so many men, although ricpic's POV is part of that appeal, too...

ricpic said...

Althouse is a womanly woman...if I may be so bold.

Second that.; 9/29/11, 11:30 AM
Chip S. said...: George Washington--now there was a man's man.

He had the hots for Sally Fairfax, but I'm in the camp that says he didn't nail her, although he could've.

His soldiers stayed with him through thin and thinner.

The prototype.; 9/29/11, 11:30 AM
Uncle Frank said...: A man's man is the type who doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis.; 9/29/11, 11:33 AM
Trooper York said...: Who is weaker....Bob Crachit who had more childern than he could provide for but worked at a terrible job eating shit so he could put food on the table....or Obama's Dad who dropped his demon seed and when the bill came due split to go knock up some other broad.

That would be a good book to read some day.

"Dreams from Bob Crachit."; 9/29/11, 11:35 AM
Fred Pruitt said...: A man's man spends a lot less time defining what a man's man is than he does simply doing it.; 9/29/11, 11:35 AM
rhhardin said...: Hamlet: He was a man. Take him for all in all.
I shall not look upon his like again.

Modern Edition: He was a great human being. He was perfect in everything. I’ll never see the likes of him again.; 9/29/11, 11:39 AM
traditionalguy said...: A man needs to find his identity in his father's life goals passed on to him as a blessing that he is worthy to live up to.

Searching for a blessing from a self centered MIA father was a dead end.

Obama has created himself from his own strong imagination.

That is a talent from his father.

To lead a group by getting the group to imagine whatever you want is not a leadership style that we need. That is a magician's style, not a leader's style.

Again, the energy he spent imagining and acting out the role of a leader of Communities and now a leader of a Nation left Obama with no sexual energy left to play the man's role.

He is a self made asexual.

Exposure of that is what has melted him before our eyes.; 9/29/11, 11:42 AM
Scott M said...: Re: "No real man walks away from his wife and kids."

No man walks away from his kids. His wife doesn't get the same consideration given that a) she's an adult and b) there are a myriad of reasons why the man should no longer be with her.

Those do not apply to the children, however.; 9/29/11, 11:50 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Let's take that phrase "womanly woman" and use it to examine the phrase "man's man." Note the difference in the formation. We haven't said "woman's woman" or "manly man."

I would agree that Obama is not a "manly man," and I clearly say so in the diavlog (if you watch more than this clip).

And thanks to all who called me a "womanly woman," but I hope it's obvious that you are not calling me a "woman's woman." I'm sure I'm not treasured and held close by other women! So the linguistic distinction should be clear.

Now, back to the concept of Obama as a man's man. It doesn't mean he's especially masculine. I'm using the term to refer to his preference for surrounding himself with men and the tendency of other men to want him in their group of men, for whatever reason.

This is not at all about men having sex with men!; 9/29/11, 11:50 AM
Anonymous said...: Chip S. --

"Also loyalty to the tribe."

I think it's more protective for the tribe. Splitting pedantic hairs myself.; 9/29/11, 11:54 AM
Chip S. said...: I'm using the term to refer to his preference for surrounding himself with men...

Conspicuously, no one has run with this as a defining characteristic of a "man's man." So you may be basing the post on a faulty premise.

and the tendency of other men to want him in their group of men...

People of both sexes want to be in a president's inner circle, because they want access to power. That has nothing to do with being a "man's man." In fact, this entire string of psychobabbly posts originated with complaints from women who wanted to be part of the in-group.

What evidence is there that anybody much wanted to have him in their group before he got into politics? The absence of any buddies from his pre-politics days is striking.; 9/29/11, 12:05 PM
deborah said...: Troop, to be clear, when I said 'real man,' I didn't mean the 'real man' who will eat crap at work to provide for his family. I meant the all-male, can tell a bawdy joke, is at ease with himself type. Man, this is hard to get out. Yes, Crachit is a real man, and Scrooge became one by the end of the story.

DBQ, he does not set off my gaydar, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me. He reminds me of the Roman emperor type.; 9/29/11, 12:06 PM
Peano said...: Why did you even need Amy there? That was a monologue, and a rambling, disjointed one at that.; 9/29/11, 12:12 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... He reminds me of the Roman emperor type..."

Nero? Caligula? Elagabalus?; 9/29/11, 12:12 PM
LordSomber said...: Too much yin, not enough yang.; 9/29/11, 12:16 PM
Scott M said...: The point is: a man's man LEADS these groups, doesn't "think of himself" as a team player. Because he doesn't need to.

Coming from a family full of the above-mentioned, I'm confused as to why you think the leader of a team of operators doesn't think of himself as a team player.; 9/29/11, 12:20 PM
rcocean said...: People seem to be confusing:

- A Man's Man
- A real Man
- A Man who likes to hang out with men.

All 3 are different.; 9/29/11, 12:20 PM
John Althouse Cohen said...: Being a man's man is innate. You can't fake it and you can't pretend that you are.

I've seen this said in the comments here before. Where does this come from? How can you honestly think no one is (successfully) faking it? This is credulous nonsense. Of course people fake it. People can fake anything.; 9/29/11, 12:20 PM
traditionalguy said...: Professor, you of all people should understand why Obama wants to be a man's man.

He wants to rule using the man's traditional authority drawn from a group of men that he surrounds himself with.

Obama shows little of a man's authority when seen alone, and he absolutely controls how people see him.; 9/29/11, 12:22 PM
Scott M said...: You can't fake it and you can't pretend that you are.

"I've seen this said in the comments here before. Where does this come from? How can you honestly think no one is (successfully) faking it? "

Perhaps what's meant is that any faking it would fail after prolonged exposure.; 9/29/11, 12:24 PM
Meade said...: Sarah Palin would be the quintessential man's man...

if only she weren't a woman.; 9/29/11, 12:24 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: ".. Of course people fake it. People can fake anything..."

Sure. Whether the faking actually fools anyone is another thing entirely.; 9/29/11, 12:28 PM
garage mahal said...: We need to get back to choosing presidents based on which one you would like to have a beer with. It worked great last time!; 9/29/11, 12:30 PM
deborah said...: Hoosier, I don't know from emperors, but I meant the imperious, languid, self-regarding, gay kind. Bisexual, even.

Scott, I agree with, JAC. There have to be those who wear it like a suit, and are good at it, regardless of length of exposure.; 9/29/11, 12:31 PM
chickelit said...: deborah said: He reminds me of the Roman emperor type.

Close your eyes and image Obama as Tiberius, Rahm Emanuel as Sejanus, and HRC as Livia: I, Claudius.; 9/29/11, 12:33 PM
deborah said...: Althouse, I agree with what you said about Obama's promotion through the ranks based on others' use of him to extend their power.

I have wondered especially at how he was selected as president of the Harvard Review and how he managed to get his first book deal through. Who pulled the strings for him? Who saw him as the Black messiah they'd been waiting to groom?; 9/29/11, 12:36 PM
Meade said...: Milwaukee Brewers Man's Men:
Prince Fielder
Jonathan Lucroy
Corey Hart; 9/29/11, 12:39 PM
Meade said...: Zack Greinke, George Kottaras, Mark Kotsay, LaTroy Hawkins, Takashi Saito, Randy Wolf, Yovani Gallardo, John Axford; 9/29/11, 12:46 PM
rcocean said...: Ladies man: Sam Malone
Man's Man: Norm
Real Man: Cliff

Ladies man: Niles & Fraiser Crane
Man's Man: Bulldog (possibly faking)
Real Man: Father Crane; 9/29/11, 12:46 PM
MayBee said...: People of both sexes want to be in a president's inner circle, because they want access to power. That has nothing to do with being a "man's man."

Good point, Chip S.; 9/29/11, 12:49 PM
coketown said...: They should have called this one "The Vagina Dialogue." Overall it was interesting, and brought my back to my undergraduate days in which texts were meticulously parsed according to that day's critical approach. Feminist criticism was all about identifying phallic images EVERYWHERE. I went an entire semester blushing every time I put my key in the ignition.

I must say, though, that the whining over being excluded from poker was hypersensitive horseshit. I'm part of a poker club that is virtually 100% male, and when I invited a female friend to it I had to stop, call the guy who hosts it, and ask if women were allowed. And he says, "Well, of course, but I can't think of any women who actually wanted to come." All these guys are married and have plenty of female acquaintances, so it's not as though women hadn't been invited. But after invited twenty, thirty, forty women, all of whom decline the invitation, you just figure you should stop asking! It's not surprising that a professor's poker game was overwhelmingly male, and he probably made a calculation of efficiency in only extending the invitation to men. I'm sure if Amy had done, you know, asked to join the game she would have been invited.

There is a different dynamic at actual casinos, though. It seems all the poker tables are 60/40 for men and women. It's very rare that there are not at least two women present. And it's fun pegging a player's playing style based on their demeanor. The manliest men are hyper-loose, hyper-aggressive players. Very easy to take their money. Very feminine types are extremely tight and extremely conservative. You get their money slowly, mostly by them being the blind once a round until their chips are gone.

This works for race, too. Asians are loose aggressive players and lose money fast. Blacks are tight aggressive, typically, so when they play you know they have something, and that's enough to scare me off for the hand.; 9/29/11, 12:50 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: No love for Nyjer Morgan or Rickie Weeks, Meade?

I see racism! Of the most insidious kind!; 9/29/11, 12:53 PM
deborah said...: Mmmm, Sejanus is too perky to be Rahm; not enough f-bombs :); 9/29/11, 12:55 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: Not to mention Latroy Hawkins.

You're underperforming the repudiation of racism today.; 9/29/11, 12:56 PM
Scott M said...: Mmmm, Sejanus is too perky to be Rahm; not enough f-bombs :)

You have to spend a lot of naked shouting shower time in order to be equal to Rahm. Looking back, I wonder if he saw the writing on the wall that far past.; 9/29/11, 12:58 PM
pm317 said...: deborah said...

Althouse, I agree with what you said about Obama's promotion through the ranks based on others' use of him to extend their power.

I have wondered especially at how he was selected as president of the Harvard Review and how he managed to get his first book deal through. Who pulled the strings for him? Who saw him as the Black messiah they'd been waiting to groom?
--------------------
He made a lot of friends (like Ayers, Rezko, Penny Prizker, some Saudi guys, some connection between Geither's rich father) during his community organizing days in Chicago which was as Ann rightly points out was before his Harvard gig. Some of your questions have been answered by people who struggled to find out who he is during the 08 primary campaign but since the media protected him, it was difficult for them to establish credibility for their findings.

It is funny and sad to see you guys raising these questions now. Because posts related to this were all over many blogs during primary 2008.; 9/29/11, 1:01 PM
Meade said...: Read more carefully. I mentioned Hawkins.

You, sir, are overrepudiating the underperforming of my repudiation of the racism of underperfomance today.; 9/29/11, 1:01 PM
chickelit said...: Meade said...
Sarah Palin would be the quintessential man's man...

if only she weren't a woman.

I think I agree. Carol Herman hinted that Palin and Thatcher are an archetype. But since I don't really feel like taking on Cedarford in a war of slurs (who does?), I'll pass on explaining.; 9/29/11, 1:04 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Of course people fake it. People can fake anything."

Not in this case because the only proof is action. You can't fake that.; 9/29/11, 1:19 PM
AllenS said...: The Professor is not a woman's woman, she is The Althouse Woman, unique, a woman with provenance. A woman who I believe, can type like crazy.; 9/29/11, 1:24 PM
Scott M said...: Not in this case because the only proof is action. You can't fake that.

I've dated women who would say otherwise. Not with ME mind you...; 9/29/11, 1:26 PM
deborah said...: pm, I read extensively about Obama before the election, so I know about those you list, and more.

What I was focussing on was how early on he was tagged for promotion. And I mispoke; I read that he was approached by an editor to write his story, after the editor found out he was the first black editor of the Harvard Review. I was wondering if there was a little bird who put this idea into the editor's head, or if the editor came up with the idea himself. Just speculatin'.; 9/29/11, 1:27 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... We need to get back to choosing presidents based on which one you would like to have a beer with..."

Funny I don't recall the previous President holding a beer summit to gloss over his case of foot in mouth disease.; 9/29/11, 1:33 PM
Tank said...: A man's man does not bunt in the first inning, then take himself out of the game.; 9/29/11, 1:33 PM
AllenS said...: There was a time when Bret Favre was a man's man, but then he joined the Vikings, and, well, it was all downhill after that.; 9/29/11, 1:36 PM
frank said...: You need to burn shit--everyman's shit--to be a man's man. Just for "J" O-1's and E-5's and up never burned shit so they couldn't be a "man's man" got it J?; 9/29/11, 1:43 PM
AllenS said...: frank, I'm a shit burner.; 9/29/11, 1:47 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... frank, I'm a shit burner..."

Thanks. You just named my new chili recipie.; 9/29/11, 1:58 PM
pm317 said...: deborah said...
----------

oh, OK. The editor was a woman and yeah, it is a mystery who put her up to it. But there was some tenure related brouhaha going on in Harvard with a Black prof at that time and Obama, lo and behold was the lucky beneficiary of it landing the law review editorship. At least that is part of the story.; 9/29/11, 2:00 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... We need to get back to choosing presidents based on which one you would like to have a beer with..."

Then again garage, its a better vetting process than choosing solely on skin color and dreaminess.; 9/29/11, 2:02 PM
Methadras said...: bagoh20 said...

A man's man is the guy who organizes Chuck Norris's sock drawer.

Chuck Norris organizes the most interesting man in the world's underwear drawer.; 9/29/11, 2:05 PM
Bart DePalma said...: Ann:

The term you are probably looking for is "alpha male" rather than "a man's man."

In human groups, other males defer to the alpha male because he is stronger physically, mentally and/or in attitude.

Women tend to be attracted to alpha males, it is suspected because of an evolutionary drive to bear the strongest children.

Obama is not an alpha male.; 9/29/11, 2:06 PM
deborah said...: I'd known his first editor was female (but was confusing that with publisher), and recall how he threw her under the bus after the success of his first book with her.

So she could have come up with the idea herself, looking for clients.; 9/29/11, 2:13 PM
frank said...: @Allen S: "There it is man" smile.; 9/29/11, 2:40 PM
paul a'barge said...: Obama is no man's man. Period; 9/29/11, 3:03 PM
Anonymous said...: rcocean wrote:

Lots of our Presidents liked to be surrounded by women & socialize with them

JFK enjoyed being surrounded by women, but since he wasn't anatomically peculiar it was by only one woman at a time. Sometimes there were two or three women, but only in quick succession.

The question of whether Barack Obama is a "man's man" is irrelevant to understanding who he is. There's a more meaningful way to characterize his personality.; 9/29/11, 3:48 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "The term you are probably looking for is "alpha male" rather than "a man's man." "

Not only is that not what I'm searching for, but I don't think Obama is such an alpha type. I think he's more of a beta who is being used to fool the public by the alphas. The Suskind book makes him look like that.

"Summers repeatedly told Orszag that, with Obama as president, “we are home alone”....”"

Suskind, Ron (2011-09-20). Confidence Men: Wall Street, Washington, and the Education of a President (p. 158). Harper. Kindle Edition.; 9/29/11, 4:10 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Obama is not an alpha male."

Just seeing that you ended with that... so why did you think I was looking for that term?; 9/29/11, 4:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Hoosier Daddy --

"Funny I don't recall the previous President holding a beer summit to gloss over his case of foot in mouth disease."

Yes. The real man in that situation turned and helped the elderly adversary down the stairs. The other turned and left his elderly ally standing at the top.; 9/29/11, 4:28 PM
Anonymous said...: Ann Althouse --

"I think he's more of a beta who is being used to fool the public by the alphas."

*Some* of the public.; 9/29/11, 4:32 PM
Scott M said...: (under 26 = boy, no?)

Multiple members of my family, who did or are serving in combat zones at less than 26 years of age, would disagree with you.; 9/29/11, 4:32 PM
FleetUSA said...: Excellent discussion. The GOP wants lower taxes, less regulations, and more jobs for all Americans (black, women, etc.)...in reverse order.; 9/29/11, 4:43 PM
Big Mike said...: Professor, if you want to know what a "man's man" is, then lift your eyes off the screen, turn around, and look at Meade.

I can't be certain, of course, since I only know him second hand through his postings, but I suspect you married someone who qualifies as a man's man.

How does he act in a threatening situation? Does he look as though he's ready to deal with whatever comes? Not that man's man won't step back and even retreat, if that's the best response to the situation -- a man's man doesn't worry about "machismo," because he knows he's being sensible and not weak. And notice that when he retreats, he only turns his back as a gesture of contempt -- otherwise his eyes are on the threat.

How do other men react to him? Do strong men treat him as an equal? Do weak men bluster foolishly around him? And be forced to back down merely by the look in his eyes?

If so, then you shouldn't be asking what a "man's man" is.; 9/29/11, 7:30 PM
Anonymous said...: he is a chick, realize that and his relationship with biceps michelle, his passive agressiveness and bitching make sense.
sorry, he's a chick with the mother of all periods.

and i know no woman who is as bad a chick as the beeyotch in chief; 9/29/11, 10:53 PM
Jen Bradford said...: What Sixty Grit said at the top. Also, Sullivan was breathtakingly gracious about it. It made an interesting topic almost painful to listen to.; 9/29/11, 11:11 PM
Jen Bradford said...: I'd also add that I think of Obama's mom whenever there's a hippie punching episode out of the White House. You just know some of the dreamier far-left stuff drove him right around the bend with his mother. At the same time, she may have inadvertently taught him how to make them sway and go misty.; 9/29/11, 11:17 PM
c71ff said...: A man's man... can ride, shoot straight, and tell the truth. That is enough.; 9/30/11, 12:34 AM
Michael said...: A man's man writes every evening in his diary. He does not "journal" whatever that may be.; 9/30/11, 6:37 AM
Michael said...: A man's man writes every evening in his diary. He does not "journal" whatever that may be.; 9/30/11, 6:37 AM