Althouse: "The swastika is illegal here, as is the Hitler salute."

August 23, 2011

"The swastika is illegal here, as is the Hitler salute."

"Germans have learned after decades of fighting their expression that the ideas behind them cannot be outlawed. But the question facing German officials today is whether pushing those ideas underground makes them more radical in the short term, and maybe even more attractive in the long run, precisely because they are forbidden."

47 comments:

Anga2010 said...: Free speech for all (It makes it a lot easier to spot the idiots)!; 8/23/11, 9:13 PM
rcocean said...: Sorry Dude it was 66 years ago. Time to move on.

The Sioux Indians aren't going on the warpath, the Japanese aren't going to bomb Pearl Harbor, and the Germans aren't goin' Nazi again - they already run Europe.

Deal with Reality. Its 2011.; 8/23/11, 9:16 PM
Tim said...: Ugh.

The Nazi's were National Socialists.

The name Nazi itself comes from "Nationalsozialist," shorter for "National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Socialists.

Of the national variety.

Socialists.

Everywhere but the febrile minds of the Left, Socialists are Left.

Including those of the national variety.

Although, it's obvious as to why the Left, including the New York Times, wishes to disclaim the association.

I'd want to, too, if I were a Leftist.

But they'll keep on, keeping on.; 8/23/11, 9:18 PM
Known Unknown said...: Action speak louder than words.; 8/23/11, 9:18 PM
Trooper York said...: Jeez. Cedarford is entitled to his hobbies. Just sayn'; 8/23/11, 9:23 PM
William said...: The belief common among many, not least of all among Germans, that Germany was uniquely evil is just a variation on the former belief that Germans were uniquely superior. I don't buy it. There were a constellation of circumanstances that produced Hitler. Some of these circumstances were undoubtedly rooted in the German character, but mostly they were the result of WWI. No one like Hitler had ever ruled Germany before and none since.....Compare Hitler with Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. etc. There is something about Marxism that produces genocidal tyrants. This fact is seldom examined, nor is the support that these thugs have had among western intellectuals.; 8/23/11, 9:24 PM
Anonymous said...: You mean you can't outlaw ideas and opinions? Maybe they're not trying hard enough.; 8/23/11, 9:28 PM
A. Shmendrik said...: 66 years, perhaps, but 6 million people, annihilated because of their religion? That never ages out. I don't like repression of even symbolic speech, but this is a special case.; 8/23/11, 9:30 PM
Anonymous said...: But the police found one handgun and one hundred rounds of ammunition. That proves how dangerous they are.; 8/23/11, 9:32 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Apologies for my ignorance, but has this shit (http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/09/europe-201109) in Vanity Fair, by Michael Lewis, been mollifying?; 8/23/11, 9:40 PM
David said...: I had never watched "Triumph of the Will" except in snippets until last night, when I used my new Netflix account to view it. Quite a remarkable film, with a lot of emotional power. Part of that power comes from the clear knowledge of the horror Hitler's party lead to. I say "Hitler's party" because it was so explicit, even in 1934, that in the Nazis viewed Hitler as the party and the state and the state was Hitler. Hess says this in almost precisely these terms near the end of the film.

That concept is not ascendant anywhere in the European-American culture right now, nor thankfully does it seem to be the norm in China. They are not democratic, but since Mao have avoided having one man be the embodiment of the state.

The most bloody and repressive societies of the 20th century, and the worst of today (Iraq under Hussein, Libya, Cambodia, Iran) have all featured this mystic identity between one man and the state.

George Washington lead us away from that path over 200 years ago. Bless him.; 8/23/11, 9:40 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... 66 years, perhaps, but 6 million people, annihilated because of their religion?.."

They werent killed because of their religion.; 8/23/11, 9:40 PM
chuck said...: I worked at a rose nursery in northern Germany back in the day and lived in the workers dorms. One of my room mates was a Nazi, freshly out of the (West) German army. Every night he would put "Conversations with Hitler" on his night stand, every morning the cleaning lady would put it in the drawer. Of course, the book has turned out to be phony. He also read the der National Zeitung - NZ as he emphasized.

Anyway, it's not as if all the Nazis magically disappeared after the war, I ran into several others.; 8/23/11, 9:41 PM
Anonymous said...: It's a good thing this U.S. Navy (seriously) building in San Diego isn't actually in Germany.

Peter; 8/23/11, 9:42 PM
KCFleming said...: Rather than studying why socialism inevitably results in mass murder, they ban the ephemera marking this particular rendition.; 8/23/11, 9:44 PM
Wince said...: "Don't Mention the War!"; 8/23/11, 9:48 PM
edutcher said...: "But the question facing German officials today is whether pushing those ideas underground makes them more radical in the short term, and maybe even more attractive in the long run, precisely because they are forbidden."

The old concept of the forbidden fruit. Maybe the people who wrote the Old Testament were onto something.

But those bitter clingers don't know anything, do they?

A. Shmendrik said...

66 years, perhaps, but 6 million people, annihilated because of their religion? That never ages out. I don't like repression of even symbolic speech, but this is a special case.

Actually about 14 million, including Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, Slavs, Poles, and Russians. The 5 1/2 million Jews constituted about half the Jews in Europe.

Had the war gone his way, Adolf's next target was the Catholic Church.

PS What William said.; 8/23/11, 9:50 PM
The Scythian said...: If you read the article, you'll see that it's a pretty blatant attempt to conflate Naziism with the growing German belief that multiculturalism is dead.

Just because you oppose multiculturalism doesn't mean you're a Nazi. (In fact, it's easy to argue that the Romantic vision of ethnicity offered by the multiculturalists has more in common with Naziism than adherents are willing to admit.); 8/23/11, 9:51 PM
rcocean said...: Maybe we can make this into a contest of who hates Nazi's more.

I'll start:

I really, really, hate Nazi's.; 8/23/11, 9:53 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: The article links the rise of right wing extremism to xenophobia and anti immigration. No big surprise when countries that are not traditionaly open to immigration loosen those restrictions and fail to require assimilation of their new citizens its going to breed resentment.

Most of Europe is in a demographic death spiral so bringing in third world immigrants is the only way to keep population at least stable. No reason for the immigrants to adopt the traditions and culture of a society that is chooses not to perpetuate itself.; 8/23/11, 9:55 PM
rcocean said...: I wonder if people are ever going to stop with the posturing.

I was reading comments at Atlantic Magazine and everyone was trying to top each other on how much they hated slavery - Jeff Davis was REALLY bad.

I guess people love that kind of stuff.; 8/23/11, 9:56 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... I really, really, hate Nazi's..."

I'll admit I hate Illinois nazis the most.; 8/23/11, 9:56 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... Just because you oppose multiculturalism doesn't mean you're a Nazi..."

Of course not. Then again if Westerners started flocking to Asia, Africa or the Middle East and attempted to insert Western culture there it would be called imperialism.; 8/23/11, 10:01 PM
traditionalguy said...: When the evil presence that worked its will on men's minds through the symbols of the Swaztika and the Heil Hitler salute has been stopped and driven out, then it is also necessary to rid the people of contact objects to that evil presence.

Otherwise you will permit re-introducing a quickly multiplying pathogen into the body politic like bringing back the Spanish Influensa virus's power to kill.

Lager yeast is not the only thing that grew up in Bavaria and spread.; 8/23/11, 10:14 PM
holdfast said...: I REALLY hate zombie Nazis.

But I like Suzie X.; 8/23/11, 10:34 PM
Titus said...: Did you guys know that Germany is really really gay now?

You can't swing a cat without hitting a fag.

City/Country they are fucking everywhere.

I am not attracted to German fags.

They are too Tom of Finland and that is just so gross. More normal, less gay please.; 8/23/11, 10:46 PM
Titus said...: Berlin is gayer than NYC, San Francisco, Ptown and Key West combined.; 8/23/11, 10:48 PM
Dustin said...: People will be discussing Nazism for thousands of years. I'm not sure that 66 is very many, in the scheme of things. In fact, it's disconcerting just how close my sane little world is, time-wise, to this horrible world.

Germany's reaction is understandable, but I think ultimately the best solution is to bring these bastards into the light of day for real criticism.

WV: Redlegr AKA an artillery man who slew many Nazi bastards.; 8/23/11, 11:00 PM
TTBurnett said...: Die Gedanken sind frei.; 8/23/11, 11:00 PM
Carol_Herman said...: You know, Germany's in a mess ... because the benefits of the Berlin Wall UP ... were overlooked ... When the wall came down ... and the flood of communists entered the ring. For the "benefits."

That's why South Korea wants no part of ending their "separation." Can you imagine the south absorbing all the starving northerners?

As to Hitler ... again. Guess who really goes underground? Not those who believe in liberty.; 8/23/11, 11:04 PM
Dustin said...: "That's why South Korea wants no part of ending their "separation." Can you imagine the south absorbing all the starving northerners?"

All the South Koreans I know badly do want to feed those starving people, some of which are related closely to families in the South.

It's the psycho communism they don't want to absorb.

I recall the last time I saw North Korea, the men were all six inches shorter than the South Koreans. And that was many years ago. Things are much worse today.

Yes, you're right, tearing walls down brings new challenges. And those are not challenges to shy away from.; 8/23/11, 11:13 PM
Derve Swanson said...: "Did you guys know that Germany is really really gay now?"

Now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Heinrich_Ulrichs; 8/23/11, 11:21 PM
Derve Swanson said...: "Actually about 14 million, including Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, Slavs, Poles, and Russians. The 5 1/2 million Jews constituted about half the Jews in Europe."

Who are you forgetting in there? (Think: smaller, less powerful lobbying group); 8/23/11, 11:25 PM
Phil 314 said...: is it possible to Godwin a thread on Nazi's?; 8/23/11, 11:36 PM
Lipperman said...: "Never again", Europeans said after the war in Europe ended. That thinking resulted in the pussification of an entire continent, and they're about to give it all away to a culture that belongs in the 8th century. Schade!

Thankfully there are women like this:

Never Again, meine Arsch
.; 8/23/11, 11:38 PM
Cedarford said...: A. Shmendrik said...
66 years, perhaps, but 6 million people, annihilated because of their religion? That never ages out. I don't like repression of even symbolic speech, but this is a special case.

+++++++++++++
No more "special" than communisms or Islams victims, which were more numerous yet we do not repress their speech.

================
Dustin said...
People will be discussing Nazism for thousands of years. I'm not sure that 66 is very many, in the scheme of things
+++++++++++++++++
I doubt it, unless Jews dominate the media fare the world is fed - which even now is a shadow of the influence Jews had over the global media from the 60s to early 90s. .
Otherwise - National Socialism soon fades into history as another movement that had it's brief day, killed a lot of people, was the Boogeyman for a few decades after being defeated, and faded. Studied for academic interest, with no real "emotion" one way or the other assigned to it.
Conquistadors, rise and fall of the Jap militarists that killed nearly as many. The Chinese Warlord period, Assyrians, Zulus, Protestant Wars, etc.; 8/23/11, 11:53 PM
Dustin said...: cedarford,

You say I'm wrong and then explain how I'm right.

It's as though you are very stupid. Yes, Hitler ranks with other major historical issues that will be discussed for a long time.

He's obviously much more interesting and horrible than some of your examples, too, but those too will be discussed for a long time.; 8/23/11, 11:57 PM
Kirk Parker said...: rcocean,

"I really, really, hate Nazi's. "

Jeez, is *that* all you've got???; 8/24/11, 1:10 AM
Gary Rosen said...: " doubt it, unless Jews dominate the media fare the world is fed - which even now is a shadow of the influence Jews had over the global media from the 60s to early 90s"

Wow. 11:53PM?? 'smatter, Fudd? Been pounding the pud since 9 and can't make your nut, so you tried another Joooo post?; 8/24/11, 3:42 AM
jimspice said...: AA,why don't you ever call out your people on their stupidity?; 8/24/11, 3:52 AM
Palladian said...: "AA,why don't you ever call out your people on their stupidity?"

She probably can't afford to spend hours on you alone, dearest Jim.; 8/24/11, 5:36 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... AA,why don't you ever call out your people on their stupidity?.."

'Your people?'

Care to elaborate on that piece if stupidity?; 8/24/11, 7:00 AM
dash said...: and the Germans aren't goin' Nazi again - they already run Europe.

When the upcoming generation of Germans begin bearing the full weight of both bailing out southern Europe and the increasing effects of ill-advised immigration policies (sound familiar?) you will almost certainly see a rise in nationalism.
And since the European political model consists of left wing socialists and right wing socialists, this movement will be both nationalist and socialist.; 8/24/11, 7:38 AM
Jose_K said...: Who are you forgetting in there? (Think: smaller, less powerful lobbying group
People with down syndrome and people that resembled them.
Also right wing politicians.All but the leader of the catholic party, later honored by the Vatican, that handed Hitler the power, were killed in the Long Knives night; 8/24/11, 8:27 AM
chickelit said...: jimspice wrote: AA,why don't you ever call out your people on their stupidity?

Ein Volk, Ein Blog, eine Führerin!; 8/24/11, 9:30 AM
J said...: You know you're in the presence of pure white-trash idiocy when you read or hear some yokel insisting Nazis were leftists, merely because of the s-word in their name. Say danke to that untalented blowhard Jonah Goldberg for that brainfart; 8/24/11, 11:02 AM
Joanna said...: Phil 3:14 said...
is it possible to Godwin a thread on Nazi's?

When someone brings up the Nazi ties to the Middle East?
-----

@J It appears that your thesis statement is that the Nazi party was either centrist or right. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?; 8/24/11, 11:41 AM