Tens of thousands of Egyptian Islamists poured into Tahrir Square on Friday calling for a state bound by strict religious law and delivering a persuasive show of force in a turbulent country showing deep divisions and growing signs of polarization.
The shape of Egypt five months into its revolution remains distinctly undecided, and Islamists have long been the best organized political force in this religiously conservative country. Some activists speculated that their show of strength would serve as a jolt to the secular forces who helped to start the revolution but who remain divided, largely ineffectual and woefully unprepared for coming elections....
In terms of turnout, one of the largest since the revolution, the demonstration on Friday evoked past scenes in Tahrir Square. But many of the similarities stopped there. Cries for national unity and coexistence between Christians and Muslims made way for familiar religious chants and demands that Egypt adhere to Islamic law, known as Shariah.
“Islamic law is above the Constitution,” one banner read....
“If democracy is the voice of the majority and we as Islamists are the majority, why do they want to impose on us the views of minorities — the liberals and the secularists?” asked Mahmoud Nadi, 26, a student. “That’s all I want to know."
July 29, 2011
The chant in Tahrir Square today: "Islamic, Islamic. Neither secular nor liberal."
The NYT reports:
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48 comments:
And thus it begins.
Shocking development, never saw that coming (eyes roll)
Uh oh
Let us remember that the Iranian Revolution that ousted the Shah in 1979 was also started by the secular upper and middle classes, who then got displaced by the mullahs who mobilized the lower classes.
One problem with secular liberals and revolutions is that when it inevitably comes that time when you either murder your opponents or they murder you, their pretty little consciences get in the way until its too late.
"That's what I want to know."
No you don't.
Hey - CHIMP WITH A MACHINE GUN!!!!!
“Islamic law is above the Constitution,” one banner read....
Coming soon to a city near you.
If democracy is the voice of the majority and we as Islamists are the majority, why do they want to impose on us the views of minorities — the liberals and the secularists?
The Muslim mind just doesn’t seem to grasp the idea of protection of the individual from the majority, limiting the power of government or freedom of worship, as in our Bill of Rights. It’s all, “Hey, we are the majority, therefore you better do as we say or you die.” It’s Hive Mentality all the way.
Now, where are the westener asking Mubarak to resign?
"The chant in Tahrir Square today: "Islamic, Islamic. Neither secular nor liberal."
Hey, look how far Islamic has gotten every nation that's used it as a basis for governance! Who wouldn't look at places like Iran, the Palestinian territories or Afghanistan and say "Gee, let's turn our relatively modern, successful country into that!"
But the Obama Administrations giant plan is definitely coming together!
I'm sure that they'd make fine Norwegian citizens.
/sarc
Get all the women reporters out of there.
Welcome to round 2 of World War IV.
Oh, it's coming. And it will be terrible.
WW-IV??
I dunno. I think they will have civil war first.
Egypt's in deep shit.
There's garbage in the street that goes uncollected ... And, people have garbage sacks on their balconies. And, out their windows.
It's probably not going to be a player, ahead. Since it is overpopulated. They can't walk across the border into Libya. And, it can become just like many other places in africa ... where people starve to death ...
Sure. They'll blame Israel. Same old. Same old.
By the way, Americans have finally learned what the Israelis learned the hard way. In all military victories you have to hand back the territory you won ... to those who lost. It doesn't pay to go in!
In Turkey, meanwhile, ALL the military commanders just quit.
So don't think you know the future. It hasn't been told.
In iran? Well, they just had a set back. Their nuclear scientist ... who was responsible for finding a nuclear trigger ... got shot by two men passing by on a motorcycle.
It pays never to believe the propaganda you read in the papers.
Oh. And, if you want to visit Egypt, Michael J. Totten just did. And, almost died from food poisoning.
Tourism sure aint what it used to be.
Egypt will turn the corner. There are a lot of Islamists there, but it isn't going to be the next Iran.
We're just going to have deal with the fact that Islamism is popular with some of our fellow man at this time and they will be as religious as they want to be. As long as they don't get overly violent... that's okay.
No reason to be concerned with the developments in Egypt. Hilary welcomes the opportunity to work with the Muslim Brotherhood.
As long as they don't get overly violent...that's okay.
Right, slim chance a bloodlust cult will get overly violent. After all there's hardly any track record.
WW-IV??
What do you think all of this shit like Khobar Towers, USS Cole, First WTC bombing is part of?
The Religion of the Sword is doing saber drill at the Square.
Will they need blood sacrifices of murdered Coptics to feel less guilty for letting down the black meteorite named allah ?
The moslim battle cry has always been "First we kill the Saturday worshipers, and then we will kill the Sunday worshipers."
But the Israelis refuse to die lately. So the Coptic Christians may be first up.
No reason to be concerned with the developments in Egypt. Hilary welcomes the opportunity to work with the Muslim Brotherhood.
Trooper York welcomes the opportunity to work with the Muslin Brotherhood.
If he were awake, he'd say that's fashionist.
ricpic,
Actually the Islamists in Egypt used to be more violent. They've actually calmed down a bit. They had gun machine gun German tourists down in broad daylight more than a decade ago.
They're still violent, but as long and they don't massacre Christians or secularists, they can hate all they want to.
We'll look down at them, but they can be as religiously hateful as they want to be. We don't imprison Pat Robertson for shouting nonsense at gay people do we?
Lyle
Nothing to see here.
Lyle, at 9:07 PM. Where is it written that "becoming like iran" is such a great deal?
I'm with grackle at 8:07 PM
And, what I'd really like to know ... is what happens when hillary can't deliver foreign aid?
Anyway, I'll bet against whomever obama picks to lead. He's the sort of guy that it pays to bet against.
There was a doctor like this, when I was working at a medical center. They used to call him "Dr. Rule-out." Whatever he said the patient had that was wrong ... the residents would nod. And, strike that possibility off their lists.
Oh, by the way. I read somewhere (and it may have been DEBKA?) ... But Mubarak is going to be moved from Sharm-El-Shek. To trial.
However, whatever happens, it won't change a thing. Mubarak's son has no political future.
And, neither did the kid the Shah produced. (And, boy, was that followed by LIFE Magazine! He divorced a wife of 7 years, because she was infertile.)
The things you remember when you grow old.
And where is Charles Martel when you need him?
e.m. davis,
Who said there's nothing to see? Again, there's going to be violence here and there, but if they're not messing with us or their neighbors, or committing genocide... so what?
Yeah, it's awful they'r not more mature and democratic, but they're going to not be mature and democratic, and there's nothing we can do about it.
carol herman,
I have no idea what you mean.
Lyle,
"I have no idea what you mean."
Neither does she.
Wow, Lyle. Right now, I'm picturing you in this role:
Cut to train disembarkation at Auschwitz:
Lyle: Ok, move along. Nothing to see here. Be sure to grab your "soap" and "towel" after disrobing. There's a good lad! Say, do any of you have gold teeth?"
Apologists pricks like you who support or explain away Islamofacists deserve nothing more than derision.
wv: reche: what I do when I read the sort of crap guys like Lyle post.
Carter lost Iran and Bambi will lose Egypt. Turkey is not looking so good either.
This is what we get for promoting Democracy over freedom. The two are not the same thing at all.
We should have helped the Iranians and the Syrians overthrow their governments and tried to protect Mubarak. Instead we did the opposite. All our State Department is missing these days is the clown car.
Egypt's in deep shit.
What a great time for Reid to propose defense cuts, eh?
All our State Department is missing these days is the clown car.
Soros opted for an electric car...
Chef Mojo,
I don't think you've understood anything I've written. Auschwitz? Chanting in the street is Auschwitz?
I expressly wrote that if they start killing people it will be bad. They aren't doing that yet. Like you know, they use to fight wars with Israel and stuff, and machine gun German tourists to death.
Is that happening?
Get real people.
Remove Quackdaffy from power in Libya, and the same thing will happen there. Islam is on the march throughout the world and I don't see anything stopping it.
The western imperialists were able to conquer so much of the world not because of guns, germs, and steel but because most of the native peoples they conquered were sick to death of their native rulers. Marxists, Muslims, third world nationalists: their common belief is that western values are corrupt and that no leader who despises those values can be completely bad. They are joined in this belief by most western intellectuals--in fact, it might be said that being anti-western is a western value.....Mubarak, the Shah, that guy in Tunisia, even Qadaffi later in his rule, they all committed the prime crime of being insufficiently hostile to western values. Goddammed Uncle Toms got what they deserved. Assad and Castro will die in bed bed because of their principled opposition to decency. Saddam's defiance and brave death is an ideal that all in the Arab world should aspire to......This purposeful pursuit of stupidity wears you out. After a certain amount of ashes and death, Germany and Japan were able to abandon Prussian militarism and the way of the Bushido. How much suffering and defeat does the Arab world have to inflict upon itself before they stop worshipping their own stupidity?
@ Lyle:
You’re naïve about Egypt and, probably, the larger picture too. Opposition to the Brotherhood is being eliminated, churches are being burned and bombed, and Christians and secularists are being murdered. The conditions in Egypt are ripe for a total take over by the Brotherhood and Sharia.
The military will go with the flow because the extremists will be able to throw more VBIEDs, SVIEDs, and IEDs (supplies conveniently provided by Iran) than what they’ll be able to react to. As election time nears expect critical infrastructure to be targeted and guess who will be the only group ready to make things better. Hint, the guys handing out the water bottles were probably the ones who blew up the water pump (just sayin).
The endstate for Islam is total control of the masses via the few ‘educated’ religious and tribal leaders. “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” Winston Churchill
J Allen,
I'm not ignorant about what is going in Egypt. I'm aware of the flash mob attacks on Christians. I'm aware of what the Muslim brotherhood is.
However, my point is that Egypt is a majority Muslim country. And those Muslims are quite religious at the moment and they're going to be very religious. And there's nothing we can do about it. If they kill some Christians, they kill some Christians. That'll be horrible and we will have to take our aid away from them, but we can't stop them from being Muslim.
We've tried hard to secularize Egypt and we've been successful to a degree, and I think ultimately the secularists will continue to tame the Muslim brotherhood and Egypt's Muslims. There will incidents. And there will backward laws passed, but they get to do that when they're the majority and when they the majority doesn't give a damn about minority rights.
It's going to be like the Jim Crow Pharoahs, but all we can do is stand up and say, you're wrong.
It's up them to build a better society.
A Tower of Babel atmosphere on parade here? These crazy Muslim protesters would probably protest an egg that was boiled to hard or to soft? Chaos is truly on parade here?
Lyle,
I’m sure you’re not ignorant about what’s going on in Egypt but you are naïve to think that the killing will stop after the Christians are killed off or driven out of the country or that the Brotherhood can be tamed peaceably. The average person in Egypt is not any more ‘religious’ now than what they were before Mubarak left office, it’s just that the Brotherhood has done a better job getting its message out. As long as people are dying the message is getting out so the people will keep to the talking points.
I think one of the best interviews was of a guy who posed the question if outsiders really thought that the 70k people occupying the square really represented the 15 mil of the country. And besides that, what does Jim Crow have to do with anything besides being a fallback lib talking point?
This is why the founders wanted a republic, not a democracy. We forget today pure democracy is a fancy word for mob rule.
@J Allen:
It won't matter if they are supported by the population at large or not. They are more organized than their rivals, are willing to use violence, and have political power. They will take over Egypt.
I'm not concerned about the Islamist takeover of Egypt. If they do takeover, they take ownership of the economic mess. If, over a period of time, they can't make good on the mess, they will get tossed out on their arses just like Mubarak was. The only way that Islamism will endure is if they can come up with a credible plan to solve Egypt's social-economic problems. The nature of this ideology makes clear to me that they cannot.
I'm just glad we forgave their debt. Fortunately, we have money to spare.
Didn't The Great Orator give a rousing, placatory speech in Cairo a while back?
So, how did those fine words work out?
Lyle at 9:07 PM
We're just going to have deal with the fact that Islamism is popular with some of our fellow man at this time and they will be as religious as they want to be. As long as they don't get overly violent... that's okay.
Lyle at 9:46 PM
They're still violent, but as long and they don't massacre Christians or secularists, they can hate all they want to.
Lyle at 1:08 AM
I expressly wrote that if they start killing people it will be bad.
J. Allen at 10:30 AM
You’re naïve about Egypt and, probably, the larger picture too. Opposition to the Brotherhood is being eliminated, churches are being burned and bombed, and Christians and secularists are being murdered.
Lyle at 11:22 AM
I'm not ignorant about what is going in Egypt. I'm aware of the flash mob attacks on Christians. I'm aware of what the Muslim brotherhood is.
However, my point is that Egypt is a majority Muslim country. And those Muslims are quite religious at the moment and they're going to be very religious. And there's nothing we can do about it. If they kill some Christians, they kill some Christians.
I was having some fun reading the comments and ran across Lyle who begins his defense of the transformation of Egypt by saying that everything was OK as long as things did not get TOO VIOLENT and ends up with “If they kill some Christians, they kill some Christians.” I guess killing Christians does not fall into the category of being “too violent.” Religious Muslims got to do what Religious Muslims got to do.
There’s no hope for Lyle. What is interesting to watch is the reaction of those who hailed the toppling of the old order in the Middle East as the beginning of the new dawn of freedom, just as, I am sure, those who saw the toppling of Russia’s czar as the road to democracy. It didn’t quite work out that way and I predict that the hopes of those who saw the false dawn in the Middle East will also see their hopes dashed.
And then there are the Lyles who will play the role of the true believers who went to the USSR after the Communists took over to proclaim, like Lincoln Steffens: “I have seen the future and it works.”
The Coptics had all better start emigrating as quick as possible. Their time in Egypt is over.
Doc,
My point exactly.
Kurt9,
You’re thinking like an American which doesn’t translate well in that part of the world. Once the Brotherhood is officially in power it will do anything and everything to stay in power. A poor economic state actually gives the Brotherhood more power and control because it’ll keep the cost down on hiring and recruiting minions.
Moneyrunner,
Nice rundown.
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