"... if he had in fact thrown up his hands, surrendered and didn't appear to be representing any kind of threat, then they were to capture him. But they had full authority to kill him. To be frank, I don't think he had a lot of time to say anything. It was a firefight going up that compound. And by the time they got to the third floor and found bin Laden, I think it - this was all split-second action on the part of the Seals."
Leon Panetta.
Also revealed: The video feed of the event cut off for 25 key minutes, and the President and others were not able to see what was going on.
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151 comments:
Was this totally a Panetta operation?
Also revealed: The video feed of the event cut off for 25 key minutes, and the President and others were not able to see what was going on.
Welly, welly, welly! What 'ave we 'ere?
This generation's Rose Mary Woods? That missing vid is going to be damning...
My guess is that the seal team had no doubt what their rules of engagement were on this mission, and therefore never gave capturing this evil man a second thought. They understood what retribution means. The Russian survivors of Afghanistan are probably also happy to see that the USA also knows how war works.
Seriously. No pictures. No video. Nothing but obfuscation, misdirection and incompetent spinning.
Glad to know The One was able to get a feel for the fog of war. Perhaps he'll have a bit more understanding of what his predecessors dealt with.
Well that means they had the video feed before the 25 minutes and after the 25 minutes.
They can't take something from that to prove they found Bin Laden?
Remember they said the operation took 40 minutes.
I read a book written by one of the first Delta Force guys. In training they practiced and perfected the "double tap" -- two shots to the head. It's to neutralize, and it might the default action they take in this type of situation when they know all they're going to encounter is enemy.
Please.
Osama bin Laden was never going to walk out of that compound. To say that the US was prepared to "arrest" him is a flat-out lie.
Their orders were to kill on sight. You dont prepare Navy SEALS for a month in order to perform a 30-minute mission to "capture" a suspect. And you dont have nearly every important person in the intelligence and defense community in the situation room to watch a guy get captured.
I cant believe this government is trying to actually say that Osama could have surrendered, and actually think the American public is going to buy it.
The way this administration has handled the post-operation PR has been an out-an-out disaster.
"The way this administration has handled the post-operation PR has been an out-an-out disaster."
Makes you almost doubt how much Barry and his team had to do with this mission at all. The CIA comes to Obama with a fully baked plan, he sleeps on it and says yes. The Navy executes perfectly. Then Barry and his team get their hands on it and manage to screw up the whole post-operation deal.
Q In the Situation Room yesterday, could you describe how you were monitoring the goings-on? It’s been described as a very tense — understandably, a very tense scene. Were you watching the operation? Were you — were you listening to it? How were you getting your information?
MR. BRENNAN: The principals convened yesterday around midday. There were others who — we were here early yesterday morning. The President joined us then early afternoon before the operation got underway. When the operation did get underway, then the President rejoined the group, and we were able to monitor in a real-time basis the progress of the operation from its commencement to its time on target to the extraction of the remains and to then the egress off of the target.
It was probably one of the most anxiety-filled periods of time, I think, in the lives of the people who were assembled here yesterday. The minutes passed like days. And the President was very concerned about the security of our personnel. That was what was on his mind throughout. And we wanted to make sure that we were able to get through this and accomplish the mission.
But it was clearly very tense, a lot of people holding their breath. And there was a fair degree of silence as it progressed, as we would get the updates. And when we finally were informed that those individuals who were able to go in that compound and found the individual that they believe was bin Laden, there was a tremendous sigh of relief that what we believed and who we believed was in that compound actually was in that compound and was found. And the President was relieved once we had our people and those remains off target.
Q Was it — was there a visual, or was it just radio reports or phone reports you were getting?
MR. BRENNAN: We were able to monitor the situation in real time and were able to have regular updates and to ensure that we had real-time visibility into the progress of the operation. I’m not going to go into details about what type of visuals we had or what type of feeds that were there, but it was — it gave us the ability to actually track it on an ongoing basis.
(Transcript Brennan press conference-Washington Wire WSJ)
"Was this totally a Panetta operation?"
Panetta Gate!!!!111!!!!@2!!@1!!!
BTW, Don't forget Jarrett.
"Makes you almost doubt how much Barry and his team had to do with this mission at all. The CIA comes to Obama with a fully baked plan, he sleeps on it and says yes. The Navy executes perfectly. Then Barry and his team get their hands on it and manage to screw up the whole post-operation deal."
----------------------
I know. Its amazing. Instead of getting everybody together so that everyone's stories jive, nearly every person in this administration that has made a public comment on this situation has had a different story. And the president wonders why there are consipiracy theorists and why pepole want to see proof of Osama dead?
The most wanted man in the world is killed, and this administration thought they didnt need to have their I's dotted and their T's crossed? How fucking incompetent are these people?
Its just comical how such a joyous event on Sunday has turned into an enormous clusterfuck just 3 days later.
Just astonishing how the office of the presidency is so over the head of Barack Obama and the staff he has employed.
Rose Mary Woods. Chef Mojo beat me to it.
That missing vid is going to be damning...
You must be kidding. Is the new standard of military operations that they must be videotaped. Really? Also, do you really believe that you would ever have a chance to view the videotape?
Try this: try the shoe-on-other-foot test. If a Republican was president, and there was a shootout, and there was no video, would you be up in arms about it?
Bin Laden is not on the protected species list. If a Communist insurgent were killed under similar circumstances, the libs would demand investigations and indictments.....In that room at that time, I would interpret any gesture by bin Laden as menacing. I surprised by reports that he did not have a weapon and that there was no panic room in the custom built building.....When you reflect on all the various conspiracy theories that hang over the killings of the Kennedys, King, Malcolm X, you may be sure that this story is not over and that it will never be over.
First he resisted, then he hid behind a wife, then he just stood there, now we're back to a hit.
Hmmm...
PaulV said...
Was this totally a Panetta operation?
According to this it was.
Jason said...
Please.
Osama bin Laden was never going to walk out of that compound. To say that the US was prepared to "arrest" him is a flat-out lie.
Their orders were to kill on sight. You dont prepare Navy SEALS for a month in order to perform a 30-minute mission to "capture" a suspect. And you dont have nearly every important person in the intelligence and defense community in the situation room to watch a guy get captured.
I cant believe this government is trying to actually say that Osama could have surrendered, and actually think the American public is going to buy it.
The way this administration has handled the post-operation PR has been an out-an-out disaster.
In terms of intel, bin Laden was probably worth more alive than dead, but he was supposed to be in renal failure, so he might not have been capable of surviving the trip.
Then again, Michael Ledeen has a provocative theory.
So WTF were they looking at in that photo?
The video feed of the event cut off for 25 key minutes, and the President and others were not able to see what was going on.
I'm confused. How was the President able to give the SEALs precise directions? I mean,
it took Obama to Get Osama, right?
So WTF were they looking at in that photo?
Fish tank screen saver? Or the wandering triangles that would change color. That always mesmerized me.
This only happened three days ago and the story has changed a lot. What will the story be in three weeks? Or three months?
Thank God the ending remains the same. I mean they killed Osama Bin Laden. After all we have the body to prove that he is dead and ....errr....errr....nevermind.
After action reports of men in battle always overestimate the numbers of the enemy killed. It is not a failure to have a human mind acting on adrenaline intoxication in face of deadly enemies that innocently mis-report facts. The result was a good result. The raiders were in and out in 40 minutes dealing with a battle , a search of all buildings, a helicopter demolition, a careful removal of solid gold intel, and a difficult handling the dead and the living occupants. Who cares if Obama stresses a different aspect of the story that he heard than the one now related by CIA assisted Panetta? There is no scandal here.
The video feed cut off is not necessarily anything dishonest on the administration's part.
It's conceivable the building had some kind of ability to thwart signals, even passively. Or even just thick enough walls. Honestly, it's not like our equipment is bulletproof, so before asserting cover up, it's good to wait for more info.
A whole lot of room to criticize some of the decisions surrounding this strike, but as with Bush's many hard choices, we should be careful. Obama had a very tough job to do, and should get some degree of latitude. Should he kill or capture? Legitimate from either POV, though capture seems like a better outcome for intel purposes.
I think the president's appeasement afterwards is also pretty easy to criticize, but to some extent, I realize this is a tough position he's in. Let's see what Obama does with the next few weeks. Does he focus on 9/11 commemoration, or does he actually 'win the future' in Libya and Syria and Iran? I think there's plenty of time for both.
How many casualties did we suffer during the "40-minute" firefight against Osama's armed al Qaeda colleagues?
Oh. None? Lucky!
So WTF were they looking at in that photo?
Ha ha. That's the same thought I had.
"Put the red seven on the black eight!"
"No, put the red seven with its ace!"
"Whose idea was it to turn on Vegas scoring?!"
@Seven Machos:
You must be kidding. Is the new standard of military operations that they must be videotaped. Really? Also, do you really believe that you would ever have a chance to view the videotape?
And yet they were filming it nonetheless. But, somehow, someway, 25 minutes of video went missing, presumably during the high point and climax of the event.
You would have a point if they had decided to not go with a vid feed, but by all accounts they did go with the feed. But now DCI Panetta is saying a crucial part of the vid is missing.
Maybe it got gently slipped into the sea with that ol' goat fucker off the fantail of VINSON.
I just heard that TruTv has the missing footage and will be showing it tomorrow on "World's Worst Dicator Assinations" with commentary by Todd Bridges, Danny Bonaduce and Tonya Harding.
Everything you need to learn in life you can learn from reality television.
What screw up? He's up 11 points and only 19% say they would vote for Palin. Victory...
It is really strange that the world still doesnt have photos or evidence about bin laden's death! i hope some photos are shown soon!
grants for single mothers
You must be kidding. Is the new standard of military operations that they must be videotaped. Really? Also, do you really believe that you would ever have a chance to view the videotape?
It's not that. It's this overwhelming perception that an incredible amount of obfuscation is taking place.
We deserve to be told the truth about this operation. This is our republic. We are responsible for what is done in our name.
It's this overwhelming perception that an incredible amount of obfuscation is taking place.
It's a very accurate perception. We're in a war, people. This call for transparency and fair dealing is ridiculous.
Pakistan is reporting that OBL's daughter is confirming the hit.
Good enough for me. He's done. Don't care if they wanted to capture him. It's war, and better to kill the leaders than all of the followers.
Madawaskan's comment and its Brennan quotes sure suggest Brennan did not say there was a gap in his "real time visibility".
Someone said that Obama has never been in the end zone before and this is is his version of spiking the ball.
Trooper
Assination
You can say that again...
Only good tasting terrorists get to be-
Assinated.
Ha!
It really isn't that surprising if the video feed was knocked out.
But consider the difficulty of fighting that kind of intense, focused battle, while the people watching your every move have prosecuted SEALs recently over basically *nothing*.
So your ROE and supervision is probably a bit stressful. Perhaps Obama should have given the SEALs more latitude before he needed to order them to execute an unarmed old monster. Apparently not, though. The SEALs obviously are too selfless to let that get in the way.
Hey I can't spell for shit. Especially after a few glasses of wine. Just sayn'
It was totally Panetta. The reason the WH was unprepared to deal with the photo issue is that the WH did not plan, command or execute the operation. Look where Obama was sitting. He'd be a junior associate at a litigation planning meeting. No power in that chair or posture. Passivity. He was in the middle of a golf round when someone had to snag him so he wouldn't miss the entire operation. Can you imagine? Ike? FDR? Bush? Panetta smoked him.
The supposed "courage" of Obama in "authorizing" this mission vanished into the usual Obama cowardice in fearing the release of the pictures. That's right. No one will be angry that UBL was killed, only that there are pictures of him dead.
That sort of thinking qualified him to be President of the Harvard Law Review.
You know the reason for the missing tape is that Osama might still be alive and they buried a bunch of rocks or one of his bodyguards or something. They could be questioning him right now in an undisclosed location.
I mean that has to be bullshit right? There is no way they would pull something like that right? I mean we can just take Osama's body and have a third party who hates us like the UN or Michael Moore or somebody to prove that Osama is really kaput. Right?
Oh wait a minute...nevermind.
It's not like the Navy could of pulled a really slick move and the politicians are fucking it up, right?
The best, simplest approach would have been to make a brief announcement that bin Laden was dead, all US troops were safe, more details to come.
I suspect that they were so anxious to get the story out that they got ahead of themselves, but that's no excuse.
It's not like the Navy could of pulled a really slick move and the politicians are fucking it up, right?
This! The fact is that the politicians and various executive agency hacks don't know the facts on the ground. They just want to take lots and lots of credit for something that we all have to agree is good, no matter how much better it could have been.
If Obama loses the public relations battle on this one, it'll just be sad. It'll be like the dorks in Real Genius failing with the babes from the beautician school that Val Kilmer's character brought in to have the slip-n-slide party with.
Unforced errors can just kill you man.
Forget about spiking the ball they can't even get it out of the ball bag.
No not that ball bag Titus don't get excited.
You know, this whole thing seems off to me. Obama announced bin Laden's death with that weirdly off-tone speech, now th WH can't gating part of it's story straight. One gets the sense that the WH itself is having internal trouble and now this. Meanwhile the president is running around doing PR and set peices...something is way off, here. Way, way off.
"It'll be like the dorks in Real Genius failing with the babes from the beautician school that Val Kilmer's character brought in to have the slip-n-slide party with."
WTF [And, I don't mean win the future.]
Is this like the science fiction references that some folks make around here?
Does a person need to be a dork to know what that sentence means/references?
Thank God for Bill Daley. And the other Old School Democrats - Panetta & The Bitch.
Bill's got a lot of dad in him. Double tap? If you must be a minimalist.
These days, a Democrat who isn't a cunt (in the British vernacular - not the gynecological) is an anomaly.
The hilarious thing is that while liberals want to make Obama into a God because he ordered a raid where Seals shot in the head an unarmed man who posed no risk to them, the liberals continue to piously and strenuously oppose terrorists being dunked in water to try to get them to provide information to protect innocent people.
I realize killng Osama is a showing of strenght that MIGHT help us intimdate terrorists, but I still have reservations about shooting an unarmed guy in the head.
pbj -- The fact that you don't know Real Genius saddens me.
The glorious scene at issue begins at about 1:10 in this clip.
And here is my dream girl of the universe, as played by the gorgeous Michelle Meyrink. We have yet to date.
"but I still have reservations about shooting an unarmed guy in the head."
Maybe if you had personally experienced the fight/effort that it took to get into a room on the third floor of that compound, deep in Pakistan, you'd be more understanding. Presumably the perspective from your Lazy Boy can't fully grasp the situation.
Seven,
I googled it after that comment. Well reviewed.
Shame on me.
I have virtually no reservations about shooting Osama Bin Laden in the head. If they stuck a hot rod in his ass first, I have even fewer reservations.
Real Genius aged very well. I happened to see it late at night on television recently, feeding a baby, and it was great.
And I thought that whole "NCIS" live image relay routine was an exaggeration.
Apparently, it was.
WV: reite.
I know. Its amazing. Instead of getting everybody together so that everyone's stories jive
Oh, their stories jive alright.
Racist.
I recently looked into jive and jibe. They can mean the same thing and, from a usage perspective, they are identical in this instance.
In case you wondered.
it took Obama to Get Osama
And if the glove doesn't fit, then you must acquit.
I wouldn't run on that slogan as I think the names are little too close for comfort.
"it took Obama to Get Osama"
That's not fair. That is coming periliously close to saying "It takes one to know one."
Are you implying that the President is a Muslim terrorist?
That's really not fair.
He is not a terrorist. Just sayn'
OK then, "It took Panetta to conduct the vendetta."
Whoops, another stereotype.
I recently looked into jive and jibe. They can mean the same thing and, from a usage perspective, they are identical in this instance.
In case you wondered.
Actually, Garner says that "jive" for "jibe" is a misuse, which he classifies as an instance of Stage 2 of his Language-Change Index: "The form spreads to a significant fraction of the language community but remains unacceptable in standard form."
In case you wondered.
Panetta gives a straight, credible answer. It is reassuring that the orders were to kill; and Panetta explains simply the circumstances under which Osama would have been captured instead. Now everything is clear! Good!
More of that kind of talk, please...
Contrast that to what we get every time Eric Holder opens his mouth. Or Big Sis Napolitano. They are always contradicting themselves, equivocating, and generally talking ass-backwards.
Less of that, please...
Garner's wrong. In case you wondered.
Trooper
You know the reason for the missing tape is that Osama might still be alive and they buried a bunch of rocks or one of his bodyguards or something. They could be questioning him right now in an undisclosed location.
I mean that has to be bullshit right? Oh yes absolute bullshit-even though that would explain a lot of the cock up...
Wait....
A cock-up
Meaning
A blunder; a confused situation.
Origin
The British expression 'cock-up' isn't commonly used in the USA, where it is generally assumed to have a vulgar meaning. What they might make of Robert Burns' poem, which took the name of the old Scottish rhyme 'Cock up your beaver', is best left to the imagination. What Burns was actually referring to was adorning a beaver fur hat by putting a cock's feather into it.
'Cock', in the sense of this term, means 'stand up conspicuously', 'turn up at the edge', 'bend at an angle' etc. This is the sense of the early usage of the term 'cock-up', in the terms 'cock-up one's ears', 'cock-up one's nose'. In the 17th and 18th centuries people were also often advised to 'cock-up' their bonnets, eyes, even legs. The expression 'cock a snook' also derives from that same sense of 'cock'.
The vulgar interpretation is plausible. After all, the English slang terms 'balls-up', 'fuck-up' and 'screw-up' all mean the same as 'cock-up' and, for good measure, we also have 'going tits-up' as slang for falling over.
Do we need to look any further for a derivation? Well, perhaps we do. There is no 'smoking gun' documentary evidence that links 'cock-up' with either the vulgar 'penis' meaning or any of the many things that can, by mistake or otherwise, be left sticking up. As in the case of many possible meanings of 'yard' in 'the whole nine yards', this wide choice has encouraged a glut of suggested alternative derivations:
- The cocking of a gun.
- The turning up the brim of a hat, i.e. a cocked hat.
- The accidental leaving of the ends of ship's spars in a titled, i.e. 'cocked', position.
- The accidental putting up (into flight) of woodcocks during a hunt.
- The accidental leaving of the spigots (a.k.a. cocks) on beer barrels.
- The incorrect placement of the cock-feather when loading a longbow.
- The accidental misalignment of text in a line of type. (The large capital letters that used to be commonly seen at the beginning of paragraphs are called 'cock-up' letters.)
The first two can be gratefully ignored as they have no link to the meaning of 'cock-up'. All of the others can claim a degree of equality as they are all at least plausible. There's scant evidence to support any of them. The nearest I've been able to come to any documentary verification is to the 'putting birds to flight' theory. The American writer Henry Herbert, using the appropriate pseudonym of Frank Forester, published the novel The Warwick Woodlands, in 1851. That contains a reference to 'cock-up':
You'll find a blind track there, right through the brush - keep your eyes skinned, do! There'll be a cock up before you're ten yards in.
A hunter's mistaken disturbance of a bird and our current understanding of the term 'cock-up' match, so that has some claim to being more believable than the other suggestions. It is still speculative though and is probably as far as we can go with those 'explanations'.
The strongest evidence that might lead us to a derivation is circumstantial. The term 'cock-up' didn't become widely used to mean blunder until the middle of the 20th century. That puts paid to the above suggested derivations as they all refer to events and customs that were commonplace much earlier. 'Cock-up' came to be used in the way we now use it around 1920, as a slang term in the British forces. Given that source, it is difficult to believe the term to be anything other than a variant of 'balls-up'.
phrases.uk.org
It is reassuring that the orders were to kill; and Panetta explains simply the circumstances under which Osama would have been captured instead. Now everything is clear! Good!
They really should have let him do the talking in the first place.
Garner's wrong. In case you wondered.
You've got to do better than that.
"Jibe" means to accord or be in harmony with.
The principal meaning of "jive" as a verb is to deceive or mislead. Only its secondary meaning is synonymous with "jibe." And since its principal meaning is essentially antonymic to its secondary meaning and since there is a similarly spelled and pronounced word (though with an entirely different and earlier etymology) that better relates that secondary sense, good stylists and careful writers will always see "jive" for "jibe" as an error.
Only its secondary meaning is synonymous with "jibe."
Hence, you prove me right with your own words.
Here is a rule about words: I can use any word at any time if it means what I mean it to mean. So can you. The order some $35,000/year dictionary editor put the meanings in matters not one scintilla.
Here is another rule about words: usage dictates grammar and meaning. Even William F. Buckley (PBUH) acknowledged this fact.
25 minutes of missing video, huh?
I am guessing the SEAL team disabled the video during the action, possibly at CIA request.
Because the CIA learned the hard way, if you video tape the water-boarding they will try to prosecute you.
So, its cams off for the kill.
I am guessing the SEAL team disabled the video during the action, possibly at CIA request.
I am guessing there was a technological glitch in trying to film a shootout in Pakistan from somebody's head and send it live to Washington DC.
If you ever worked for the federal government, you'd know my guess is far, far more likely to correspond with reality.
@Aaron:
Bingo!
The smart thing to do would have been to make a simple statement "Osama bin Laden was killed in an American operation in Pakistan earlier today. All US troops are back safely. We will provide more detailed information in the future. Thank you." and waited until they had all the details, and then got the official story straight. It looks like they were so eager to tell everyone what happened that they got ahead of themselves, which is typical of this administration.
I am guessing there was a technological glitch in trying to film a shootout in Pakistan from somebody's head and send it live to Washington DC.
Taken singly, yes, that's the most likely explanation.
But:
(1) Body thrown into ocean with absurd haste for no sensible reason
(2) Won't show us any photos of the body, again for reasons that make no sense
(3) Video feed cuts unavailable for the window surrounding his death
(4) Inconsistent stories about how the death went down.
It smells a lot like there's something they're covering up. Maybe we really DID summarily execute bin Laden -- wouldn't bother me if we had, but it wouldn't play well with the Democratic base.
SevenMachos said: If you ever worked for the federal government, you'd know my guess is far, far more likely to correspond with reality.
Well I've never worked for the Federal Government but as a casual observer of the past several years of recrimination, and a "typical" American, Aaron's version rings truer.
The reason I say that is because I don't believe that smart guys lose control.
And also believe Obama's face in that "leaked" control room shot told me that he didn't want to be there.
Can't we at least get some better photos/video of POTUS-in-charge during the event? Is that too much to expect?
I don't believe that smart guys lose control.
What a silly, false belief.
Can't we at least get some better photos/video of POTUS-in-charge during the event?
Who would be taking the pictures when highly classified information was being exchanged? You think some photographer is just sitting around, soaking up communication?
Stop reading Tom Clancy books and think about how the real world works.
Furthermore, what the fuck does you seeing an image of reality have to do with reality?
It smells a lot like there's something they're covering up.
You can rest assured that there is a whole, whole lot they are covering up. That's the nature of foreign policy, especially when you assassinate political figures.
I cant believe this government is trying to actually say that Osama could have surrendered, and actually think the American public is going to buy it.
They probably expect the American public not to care. A very reasonable expectation. They have a plausible argument that killing Osama outright was lawful. Not everyone will agree, but they have enough cover to get away with it.
Perhaps the SEALs yelled, "He's coming right for us!" just before shooting him.
An al-Qaida suspect who was subjected to harsh interrogation techniques at a secret CIA prison in early 2004 provided his interrogators with a clue — the nom de guerre of a mysterious courier — that ultimately proved crucial to finding and killing Osama bin Laden, officials said Wednesday.
The CIA had approved use of sleep deprivation, slapping, nudity, water dousing and other coercive techniques at the now-closed CIA “black site” in Poland where the Pakistani-born detainee, Hassan Ghul, was held, according to a 2005 Justice Department memo, which cited Ghul by name. Two U.S. officials said Wednesday that some of those now-prohibited practices were directed at Ghul.
------------------------------
“The people who say ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ directly led to catching bin Laden are wrong, and the people who say they had nothing to do with it are also wrong.”
Former CIA official
"It smells a lot like there's something they're covering up.
You can rest assured that there is a whole, whole lot they are covering up. That's the nature of foreign policy, especially when you assassinate political figures."
Bin Laden's not a political figure, he's never held any kind of office.
But the reason they're trying to cover up the fact that it was a hit is the same reason liberals do just about anything nowadays. It'
s designed to protect up their bullshit fantasy worldview from inconvenient facts.
Seven said: Who would be taking the pictures when highly classified information was being exchanged? You think some photographer is just sitting around, soaking up communication?
Dude, I'm talking about another perspective on this.
You think that that camera guy wasn't "out front"?
I mean get real Machos, I respect you.
Well I've never worked for the Federal Government but as a casual observer of the past several years of recrimination, and a "typical" American, Aaron's version rings truer.
I have a friend who was in the U.S. Navy, who spent quite a bit of time working with SEALs. His theory was much like Aaron's.
I would guess they were instructed to kill him no matter what the circumstances, but nobody involved wanted visual evidence of that out there for a couple of pretty obvious reasons.
It smells a lot like there's something they're covering up. Maybe we really DID summarily execute bin Laden -- wouldn't bother me if we had, but it wouldn't play well with the Democratic base.
This.
Chick -- Yeah, I know. They invited a camera person in. How long you think that person stayed? Four minutes? Five?
Or do you think that camera person sat around the whole time watching a highly classified assassination unfold in the same room with the president?
Think, dude. Then type.
Bin Laden's not a political figure, he's never held any kind of office.
What do you mean he hasn't held office? He was the head of a huge and powerful organization for many years. Is the pope a political figure? Leon Panetta?
Get your head out of your ass.
One last thing -- You won't find many people who detest Obama and his agenda like I do. People who've been here awhile will certainly back me up here.
It boggles my mind, though, that Obama could approve the assassination of Obama (and have approved the resource commitment to hunt his ass down), and yet some conservatives could allege that what Obama has done is to designed to protect up their bullshit fantasy worldview from inconvenient facts.
That's just stupid. Hello, dummies. We just invaded Pakistan the other day with elite killers. That's not easy to explain. Even if parts of Pakistan's deeply divided government knew, which I say they did.
SevenMachos sais: Or do you think that camera person sat around the whole time watching a highly classified assassination unfold in the same room with the president?
Think, dude. Then type.
Yeah dude I'm talk in to you, Mr. Palin hatin' dude...
...WTF is your problem with another camera view on that scene?
Oh, I get it Machos, it's your defense of POTUS in that photo?
Yeah dude I'm talk in to you, Mr. Palin hatin' dude...
I like Palin fine as a conservative spokesperson. Like Obama, she doesn't have a fraction of the experience or gravitas to be president.
...WTF is your problem with another camera view on that scene?
As I have explained to you, it was a top-secret operation and a serious time. It's just juvenile to believe that any White House would let a camera person traipse around and see and hear what was going on.
What likely happened was, the picture taker was ushered in and out for posterity over the course of a few minutes.
Lastly, you do not have the right to know and see everything. There's a fucking war on. Child.
"It boggles my mind, though, that Obama could approve the assassination of Obama (and have approved the resource commitment to hunt his ass down)..."
Think dude, then type.
Anyways Obama's re-election is a done deal. Althouse voting for him again is a done deal. A liberal SCOTUS is a done deal. America being finished is a done deal.
One last thing -- You won't find many people who detest Obama and his agenda like I do. People who've been here awhile will certainly back me up here.
Then you know that the SCOTUS is what it's all about. Obama's re-election ensures a 10-15 year 5-4 left-wing tilt as Scalia will have to retire soon and Obama will get to put another left-wing maniac on the court.
"As I have explained to you, it was a top-secret operation and a serious time. It's just juvenile to believe that any White House would let a camera person traipse around and see and hear what was going on."
They let that particular camera person photograph at least one classified document, which they redacted from the photograph. So you think they posed for that photograph? All of them? And you think they were wearing those expressions while looking at a shot of Leon Panetta?
They watched the whole thing go down, dude. And there was a photographer in there with them the whole time.
Nowhere have I said anyone posed for anything. I said a camera person was allowed to take photographs for a limited amount of time.
Alex Troll -- I have not said I would vote for Obama or encouraged anyone to do so. Learn to read.
Seven Machos said:
Lastly, you do not have the right to know and see everything. There's a fucking war on. Child.
I'm just going to deep this one for now. To be replayed with your signature of course if yourbama wins the battle..
Palladian -- You are really letting your artist get the best of you. The camera people aren't there the whole time. That's not how it works.
Chick -- Obama is president and the world has been largely convinced that -- and it is probably true that -- Bin Laden has been assassinated by Navy Seals. During a long war against Islamic fascism.
Those are facts you need to deal with.
"Palladian -- You are really letting your artist get the best of you. The camera people aren't there the whole time. That's not how it works."
I'm curious when they/he/she was in there, then. That photograph is intense, and doesn't look like a random moment.
Q In these anxiety-filled minutes that you said lasted like days, what was the most anxiety-filled moment? Was it when the helicopter appeared to be inoperable, or was it when you heard shots fired? And when you monitored in real time, could you actually hear the shots fired?
MR. BRENNAN: You know, when you plan these things out, you have already — you know in your mind exactly what’s the first step, second step, and everything going along. If there’s any deviation from that, it causes anxiety. But the individuals who carried out this assault planned for all the various contingencies.
So when that helicopter was seen to be unable to move, all of a sudden you had to go into Plan B. And they did it flawlessly. They were able to conduct the operation as they were preparing to do. But seeing that helicopter in a place and in a condition that it wasn’t supposed to be, I think that was one — at least for me, and I know for the other people in the room — was the concern we had that now we’re having to go to the contingency plan. And thankfully, they were as able to carry out that contingency plan as they were the initial plan.
I have my answer from the EXIF data embedded in the original photograph. The picture was taken on May 1, 2011 at 4:05:04 PM EST. The picture was last modified on May 2, 2011 at 5:00:44 PM EST. I wonder where this fits in the time line.
What you have to consider is that for these people -- Obama, Bush, Panetta, Clintons, their whole lives are intense. This was an incredibly intense moment in an already intense life. They also have huge staffs that think about things like snapping some pictures for posterity.
Powerful people simply don't notice people who are not powerful unless there's a need to do so. I'll give you a quick vignette to illustrate. I once was on a long, slow, tiny elevator with Richard Armitage. Just me and him. I was standing there. He was just standing there, grimacing, brow furrowed. After an eternity, I broke ice. I said something like, "It's great to ride the elevator with you, Mr. Armitage. I'm thrilled."
He called me a cheap date.
I broke ice. Thankfully, not wind.
Articles, man. They are important. They and spelling.
I pretend never to notice anyone.
"So WTF were they looking at in that photo?"
From the look on Hillary's face, I think they're watching tapes of Bill and Monica. Those probably kick in whenever the video feeds go out.
@Seven I don't have time to figure out why your time whatever was so different from my time whatever--I was just looking for your "opinion" on Mr. lost in that Situation Room photo.
Chick -- Perhaps I have unfairly grouped you with the couple people here who seem determined to make Obama look bad at all costs, even when he does something laudable.
If that's the case, I apologize. No excuse for it, other than maybe the late hour.
7m,
Dream girl, eh? Wow, not dreamy at all to me; a total 'meh'. NTTAWWT--if we all dreamed of exactly the same girl, it would be a pretty disappointing universe for most of us! :-)
"a cock-up....meaning ... ... ... ..."
Wow, who let Leo Rosten in here???
I think it goes without saying that the situation room had all kinds of details we do not want out in public. For example, I seriously doubt the surveillance capabilities the US claims to have in the public domain are the same as what was up on some of those screens.
People keep asking what they could have been looking at, when the SEAL helmet vids stopped working, but for all I know, hubble's secret reverse telescope kicked in at that point.
--
But we have a right to see OBL's corpse. It is inconceivable that we won't get to see it. We killed that SOB, and hiding the photo isn't going to placate anyone inclined towards terrorism. It's invaluable to reduce Osama Bin Laden down to the level of an upside down Mussolini.
Think of what those falling WTC towers meant to much of the world. It was symbolic of our nation's decline and a defeat. Fair or not. This is the greatest spoil of this battle. Let's show them what Osama Bin Laden wound up as. I'm sure it's disgusting to look at. I'm sure a few people will act a little ghoulish about it. But that's what justice looks like.
I would be absolutely proud of Obama if he came out and said, this was a kill mission pure and simple, "We found him and we didn't give him an opportunity to surrender." and so would a vast majority of other Americans. But nope, we now have to endure the moral cow-towing to the sensibilities of monitoring the reactions of the rest of the world as if this was a trial balloon. Dear God save us from these fools.
Palladian wrote...
"... The picture was taken on May 1, 2011 at 4:05:04 PM EST. The picture was last modified on May 2, 2011 at 5:00:44 PM EST. I wonder where this fits in the time line."
Obama had just finished the back 9, and the video they were viewing was a super-slo-mo video analysis of his swing taken that very afternoon, hence the horrified expressions. Tiger Woods is just out of camera range, laughing his ass off.
WV: periblam - how "Parabellum" is pronounced in the 'hood.
Imus said Osama may have reached for a gun or lipped off.
The law doesn't apply at all until after the military settles things, which is what its being legal really means.
Law people want to say that the law applies but it's okay, rather than the law is irrelevant.
Obama Administration Takes Victory Lap in Clown Car is the headline winner of the day.
Treacher via Instapundit.
The lost 25 minutes of video doesn't mean much. I've no doubt that some combination of facts offered by the administration is the truth on this matter. On the other hand, the lost video feeds into the paranoid delusions of a rather large subset of people on both the far left and far right. If this had happened to a Republican administration, I think my response would be the same: I'd be irritated and wondering about the competence of those in charge of the mission.
In most military matters, video wouldn't matter. But this is an unusual circumstance. I am still flabbergasted that the administration didn't plan ahead for the publicity this would generate. If Obama didn't want the scrutiny, he shouldn't have been so quick off the mark to make this public. Patience would have been rewarded.
That said, I imagine most politicians would have mishandled this to one degree or another. But this situation seems to get worse by the minute.
that everyone's stories jive, nearly every person in this administration that has made a public comment on this situation has had a different story
it happened In a Grove
"It's great to ride the elevator with you, Mr. Armitage. I'm thrilled."
You should have complemented his embonpoint.
SM, did you see the photo of the group at the conference table that day, with the Ears and Pencilneck in silhouette? The WH has frequently released unflattering photos of the Obamas. They must think he's awesome all the time.
Leon Panetta:
if he had in fact thrown up his hands, surrendered and didn't appear to be representing any kind of threat, then they were to capture him.
Witness at the scene:
Senior Pakistani security officials said Osama bin Laden’s daughter had confirmed her father was captured alive and shot dead by the US Special Forces during the first few minutes of the operation carried out at the huge compound in Bilal Town, Abbottabad. . . . The daughter has reportedly told her Pakistani investigators that the US forces captured her father alive but shot him dead in front of family members.”
OOPS!
rhhardin said...
Obama Administration Takes Victory Lap in Clown Car is the headline winner of the day.
Indeed it is.
Remember when politicizing 9/11 was a bad thing?
Jay,
These are Navy SEALs. They aren't common thugs. They aren't hitmen.
If they captured Osama Bin Laden, they would not summarily execute him.
Your witness happens to have no credibility. She is Osama Bin Laden's brainwashed daughter, and it's standard practice for Al Qaida types to lie and pretend something much worse happened.
I'm not saying the SEALs went in there as carefully as possible. They may have rushed through, taking down any male as soon as they saw him.
But these men are more than just extremely skilled killers. They are extremely honorable. Remember recently when they demanded a court martial when accused of punching a terrorist? Honor means a lot to these people.
OK, to sum up...
Thanks to the Administration's brilliant handling of the PR on this op:
Good bye, birthers
Hello, Obama was kept in the dark and we have bin Laden alive somewhere
Only this is more credible...
PS Cant go along with rh's idea the SEALs shot bin Laden because he trash talked them.
That's straight out of a Governator movie.
"..But these men are more than just extremely skilled killers. They are extremely honorable. Remember recently when they demanded a court martial when accused of punching a terrorist? Honor means a lot to these people."
I'm sure Osama was killed politely, respectfully, and according to Muslim tradition.
Also revealed: The video feed of the event cut off for 25 key minutes, and the President and others were not able to see what was going on.
How convenient. Incompetent Navy SEALs screw it up. Do you believe that?
But it worked for Nixon. What's gone, is gone. All the political opponents can do is whine.
So the false narrative and propaganda spin that the media puts out is that "Conspiracy theorists don't believe OBL is dead." It is exactly like the propaganda put out about "birthers", who supposedly "don't believe Obama is a Citizen", or "don't believe Obama was born in the US".
The reality is that Obama has not proven any such birth in the US, and has put out an obviously fake LFBC (which this "law prof" blithely accepts). Regardless, the fact is that "Birthers" also believe that Obama is not a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN (he was born British because of his British Subject father), and the narrative that Obama has already disseminated makes him ineligible.
Likewise the spin that Conspiracy theorists "don't believe OBL is dead" is false, and misleading (on purpose). Many believe that OBL has ALREADY BEEN dead, and whoever was killed was not Bin Laden. There were many reports that OBL was already dead over the last 10 years, so why couldn't one of those reports be true?
No pictures, No body, but we are just supposed to take their word for it, right after the putative POTUS commits the felony of "releasing" an obviously fake official US Document. Now supposedly it wasn't much of a "firefight" at all, and OBL was unarmed, and the video feed went dark for 25 minutes. So what were they watching in the pic from the "situation room"?
The Usurper has made those who went on this mission war criminals. Special Ops Navy seals have a different chain of command. They take orders straight from the President. As such they are taking direct orders to kill from an illegal Usurper who is committing treason. The Seals involved are now War Criminals, eligible to be tried as such at the Hague.
I'm still amazed that everyone involved in a combat operation has a "helmet cam" at all. Much less that we have live video being fed to the situation room during combat ops.
The missing video doesn't bother me, the non-release of the pictures isn't currently bothering me either. I thought he was dead before, I'm sure of it now.
The Chinese fire drill at the White House is starting to bother me though.
Poll:
Why do you think Obama is going to ground zero today?
1) To spike the football
2) Harass Donald Trump
3) Take Michelle shopping
4) Comfort 9/11 families
Incompetent Navy SEALs screw it up
No such thing.
The live video transmission may have been cut off but you can be assured that the video was recorded at various places along the transmission chain starting at the cameras. There would be more than one camera. Video exists of the entire incident. Someday the world will know everything that happened there.
Worst president ever.
White House goes silent on bin Laden raid
Yes, let us digest the 20 different versions for a while.
How long will it be before the names of the SEALS involved are released? Nothing could go wrong with that decision, right?
Calling the administration's act a clown car act is insulting to clowns.
Facepalm. Or how to make a great success turn into a conspiracy theory.
O.K. Let's get back to what is Really Important: The Justice Department is going after the NCAA for violating anti-trust laws in their College Bowl Series National Championship. That is why we elected that guy. The CIA would have gotten Osama unless given direct orders not to.
I had to....
Poor Mick.
"Erik said...
The lost 25 minutes of video doesn't mean much. ...If this had happened to a Republican administration,"
The risk isn't related to what Americans think, nor is it related to which party is in charge. It's about how the terrorists spin it for recruiting and fund raising.
As is, "the Americans claim their video feed went out during the exact 25 minutes of the kill. That's right, they admit they have the video from before and after, but not during the critical event. In fact, Bin Laden was not killed and I'm here to deliver a message from him that we need your support."
Or "the Americans captured Bin Laden and are torturing this hero of Islam. We have to save him!"
I am so relieved.
Everything this pseudo-executive touches turns into horridly putrid colonic offal, and this, thankfully, seems to be no exception.
More here.
It is as if "the truth is always concrete" - to quote V.I Lenin - has perplexed our junior Marxist communitiy organizer. He cannot manage policy based upon concrete truth to consistently benefit the proles. Ideology has paralyzed his brain and fixed his path.
Consistency is good. Everything he touches turns into crap.
This administration sure knows how to throw away a victory.
I predict by Monday, after the national scolding to come on 60 Minutes, Obama's bounce will be gone.
Marshal -- Or, Americans killed our hero and they splash gory pictures of this heroic dead man in their newspapers for the unbelievers and their children to see.
It's a tough situation. Surely you see that.
"It's a tough situation. Surely you see that."
It's a tough situation, but you feel comfortable attacking people whose opinion is different than yours? Your opinion is certain enough to deny possibilities, but you attack anyone else stating definitive opinions?
Maybe you should extend to other commenters 1/2 the benefit of the doubt you claim they should extend politicians.
Missing the crucial timing of the video will be used against us. It's a factual data point which can be easily distorted. These are the building blocks of conspiracy theories. Better to never have confirmed the video's existence in the first place.
Marshal -- The old attack because yo say I am attacking is pretty amateur. Don't you think?
Seven Machos wrote:
Marshal -- Or, Americans killed our hero and they splash gory pictures of this heroic dead man in their newspapers for the unbelievers and their children to see.
It's a tough situation. Surely you see that.
By the same token the media just HAD to broadcast pictures of what we did in Abu Ghraib to the poor innocent muslims for the unbelievers to see.
I don't see why those just HAD to be shown, but these don't.
jr -- Do two wrongs make a right?
Denying everyone else's opinions and then falling back to "no opinions are certain" is logically inconsistent.
"Look, squirrel!" is amateurish.
Jesus, dude. You continue to complain about my complaining. Move on.
I'm revising my definition of Amateurish. It's when someone initiates an exchange but then whines that the other person responds.
My definition is when someone whines that someone is whining.
7m,
Now I have to listen to you complaining about his complaining about your complaining.
Somebody needs to put up the "Danger! Infinite Regress Ahead!" sign...
wv for that last one --
unrap(n). My favorite kind of music.
This is Urkel's double face palm moment. God, what a fuck-up this guy is.
Meth, fuck-ups world wide just took umbrage at that comment.
Bin Laden was a military target; this was a military operation. The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things.
What's the big deal?
Missing video; my web cam often cuts off at inopportune moments, and I'm not even wearing it on my helmet and running around with a machine gun. So again, what's the big deal? You've never lost connectivity when using your wireless device in some third-world hellhole? I can't imagine that it's all THAT rare...
Running the war as a Video Game: Jerry Pournelle noted recently "Helmuith von Moltke said after Sadowa that he was the last actual commander in chief, and every field commander in future would operate with a telegraph wire down his throat. Actually he said something a bit more colorful, but you get the idea. Jimmy Carter had Colonel Beckwith on live telephone to the White House, which did neither of them any good."
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