Althouse: With all precincts reporting, Kloppenburg holds a 204 vote edge.

April 6, 2011

With all precincts reporting, Kloppenburg holds a 204 vote edge.

Results here.

173 comments:

chickelit said...: Irony would be a 14 vote lead for either candidate.; 4/6/11, 2:39 PM
ErnieG said...: Imagine my surprise.; 4/6/11, 2:42 PM
Holmes said...: Real irony would be Kloppenburg upholding the law.; 4/6/11, 2:42 PM
George Grady said...: Are there still absentee votes to count? How's that work in Wisconsin?; 4/6/11, 2:42 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Wondering where the Althouse / Republican concern over the integrity of the court was when the Prosser campaign said this in a news release:

""Our campaign efforts will include building an organization that will return Justice Prosser to the bench, protecting the conservative judicial majority and acting as a common sense complement to both the new administration and Legislature."

Prosser was STILL acting as a legislator, just doing so form the bench in black robe.

And that is just fine by Ann Althouse. But if the people of Wisconsin turn out in record numbers and engage in an election and turn out her favored Republican, why, that's politicizing!

Newsflash: Elections are political.; 4/6/11, 2:45 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Real irony would be Kloppenburg upholding the law.

Why do you say that? Do you know?; 4/6/11, 2:45 PM
MadisonMan said...: When I voted absentee, my ballot was put in an envelope. My very poorly informed guess is that envelope was taken to the precinct on voting day and entered into the optical scanner there.

I was wondering if the folding -- to get the ballot into the envelope -- would screw up the scan.

I keep getting facebook messages that provisional voters have until 4 PM today to get their IDs to the city clerk or their votes don't count. But I don't know if those votes have been counted or not. I suspect not.; 4/6/11, 2:45 PM
ricpic said...: RECOUNT!; 4/6/11, 2:47 PM
Fprawl said...: Stick a fork in it.
Recount will swell Klopp margin to a respectable couple thousand in order to give her a mini mandate.; 4/6/11, 2:47 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: And on cue the legions of Republicans start braying "voter fraud" like the sore losers do anytime they lose an election.; 4/6/11, 2:48 PM
Palladian said...: MANDATE!

About, er, something or other!; 4/6/11, 2:48 PM
TosaGuy said...: MM

My experience as a poll worker informs me that the machines handle folded ballots just fine. Those that arrive before the election are counted, those that are post-marked the day of the election are counted when they show up.; 4/6/11, 2:48 PM
Lukedog said...: As far as I know. Provisional ballots are placed in envelopes and are only counted if/when the person returns with the proper id/address verification.; 4/6/11, 2:48 PM
Palladian said...: Judging from photographs of Kloppenburg, it's the last man date she's likely to get.; 4/6/11, 2:49 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: MAdisonMan, that's how the absentee are handled. They are counted at the polling place by being fed into the machine under watchful eyes of election observers.

Wisconsin Republicans are hard at work to make it more difficult for voters to vote, so they can better rig elections.; 4/6/11, 2:50 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Yes on provisional ballots and word is that there are very few.; 4/6/11, 2:50 PM
Palladian said...: Rig elections = disenfranchising the dead, out-of-state residents & illegal aliens.; 4/6/11, 2:51 PM
Simon said...: AlphaLiberal said...
"And on cue the legions of Republicans start braying 'voter fraud' like the sore losers do anytime they lose an election."

Sore losers like, say, Al Franken, a whole bunch of Demcrats (most prominently Greg Palast) after 2004, Al Gore, and so on?; 4/6/11, 2:52 PM
Michael K said...: "Wisconsin Republicans are hard at work to make it more difficult for voters to vote, so they can better rig elections."

Wisconsin Republicans are hard at work to make it more difficult for ILLEGAL and DEAD voters to vote, so they can better rig elections.

Fixed it for you.; 4/6/11, 2:53 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Walker was rebuked in many other elections, with new County Executives in Outagamie, Milwaukee, and Dane counties.

Republicans will respond by restricting access to the polls and hyping bogus claims of voter fraud in the process.

Plutocrats took one on the chin in Wisconsin.; 4/6/11, 2:53 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Michael K, you are a well-trained parrot. Sorry, I'm fresh out of crackers.; 4/6/11, 2:53 PM
MadisonMan said...: Judging from photographs of Kloppenburg, it's the last man date she's likely to get.

What a tacky comment.

She's a perfectly nice lady.; 4/6/11, 2:54 PM
Palladian said...: "Plutocrats took one on the chin in Wisconsin."

Oh dear! Did his monocle get knocked out?!

You liberals and your obsession with violence!; 4/6/11, 2:54 PM
Palladian said...: "What a tacky comment.

She's a perfectly nice lady."

Ms Congeniality!; 4/6/11, 2:55 PM
Palladian said...: And, dear MadisonMan, given the caliber of pun I used in my comment, did you expect anything more than a base sentiment?

I couldn't resist. Living freely in commenting.; 4/6/11, 2:57 PM
roesch-voltaire said...: And in other news we discover that Walker is demoting the son of a prominent lobbyist, after folks questioned Deschane's vita-So there is still some hope for our public servants after all! Meanwhile enough folks figured out we do not need a complement to Walker in the courts.; 4/6/11, 2:58 PM
garage mahal said...: Judging from photographs of Kloppenburg, it's the last man date she's likely to get.

Hey!; 4/6/11, 2:59 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: Hey!

What, you got a date with her?; 4/6/11, 3:02 PM
DADvocate said...: Republicans will respond by restricting access to the polls and hyping bogus claims of voter fraud in the process.

YES!! We need to start with Alpha. Where was he born? Is he actually a citizen? What's his shoe size?

Kloppnedale uber alles!!; 4/6/11, 3:03 PM
Phil 314 said...: "Plutocrats took one on the chin in Wisconsin."

A nice turn of a phrase but the conjured image is a bit disturbing.

(PS How is this a vote against plutocrats?); 4/6/11, 3:05 PM
garage mahal said...: What, you got a date with her?

Unfortunately she is taken :(; 4/6/11, 3:06 PM
Original Mike said...: "When I voted absentee, my ballot was put in an envelope. My very poorly informed guess is that envelope was taken to the precinct on voting day and entered into the optical scanner there."

When I voted a couple of elections ago, poll workers were running multiple ballots through a machine. I was hoping there was an innocent explanation for that.; 4/6/11, 3:07 PM
Anonymous said...: I wonder ... if 205 Catholic Church pedophiles who voted for the liberal Kloppenberg yesterday could have turned the tide for Prosser ... if only Prosser would have prosecuted them instead of protecting them, and thus, revoked their right to vote in the election.

Wouldn't that be ironic of those 205 pedophiles he never prosecuted cost him the election?; 4/6/11, 3:09 PM
coketown said...: This is hands-down the most riveting supreme court election from a state not my own that I can remember.

I just hope the recall doesn't turn into a circus like Minnesota's or Washington's infamous recalls. "How many more boxes of ballots need to be 'found' before we can declare a winner?"; 4/6/11, 3:09 PM
Palladian said...: "Hey!"

I can never resist the chance to deploy a terrible mandate pun!; 4/6/11, 3:09 PM
SukieTawdry said...: Are we to take from this that a majority of Wisconsinites wish to continue doing business as usual? Well, I'm sure it will all work out. Maybe you guys can tax the rich or something.; 4/6/11, 3:10 PM
Palladian said...: "When I voted a couple of elections ago, poll workers were running multiple ballots through a machine. I was hoping there was an innocent explanation for that."

The new ballot scanners in New-York City look uncomfortably like oversized document shredders.; 4/6/11, 3:11 PM
Simon said...: Triple security: how to fix ballot integrity problems.; 4/6/11, 3:15 PM
Placeholder said...: Payback's a bitch!; 4/6/11, 3:17 PM
Chennaul said...: Let's do some "free association"-

Chicago

Mayor Daley

Cook County

Philly

LBJ

St Louis Missouri; 4/6/11, 3:19 PM
Harry Phartz said...: Note to self: never agree to publicly financed campaign limits. You never know when the situation will get dynamic and then you'll only regret not having the flexibility, discretion and control to determine your fate.; 4/6/11, 3:21 PM
Chennaul said...: placeholder

Oh please if payback is a bitch Sarah Palin has one MOAB of an IOU coming your way.; 4/6/11, 3:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Give me an election highly politicized by the left that is too close to call-

And I'll give you unusually late reporting precincts that always puts the democrat over the top for victory.

Without fail.; 4/6/11, 3:25 PM
MikeR said...: So a couple more months for the recount. By then, will the Wisconsin Supreme Court have dealt with The Bill?; 4/6/11, 3:30 PM
Carol_Herman said...: First of all, there will be a recount. And, the absentee ballots, which thank goodness, are paper ballots, need to be counted.

And, the police get to "watch over" the ballots when people call it a night. Or a night and a day.

Not much of a victory.

But, sure. A LESSON!

Both parties aren't equal! It's harder for republicans to gain ground. True t'marra, too.

Why do a majority of Americans hold the other party in higher esteem, I have no idea! I've seen democrats lose. But then, again, they tend to win, when the republicans put up crappy candidates.

Will anyone take on Prosser's abilities to campaign? He tends to lose. And, then as an insider he gets rewarded with a judgeship. And, here? You think it was the "story of the pedophiles?" I don't think the mud slinging is what made the difference.; 4/6/11, 3:33 PM
Thud said...: I can see fraud on a massive scale even from here in England...our libs are pretty good at it too.; 4/6/11, 3:37 PM
Placeholder said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/6/11, 3:41 PM
Placeholder said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/6/11, 3:46 PM
Carol_Herman said...: In California, your absentee ballot goes into a "wallet" ... where your votes can't be seen. And, there's no name identifying your ballot, either. You then put this into a white envelope, provided. That you need to MAIL in! I doubt votes are counted before election day.

And, I doubt anyone would be so stupid that they'd tamper with the US Mail.

Because this election is so close, instead of "fraud" ... what you should see is that the republicans didn't get to push their candidate ahead.

Half the people, voting, chose Kloppenberg. And, lots of them like the chief justice, Shirley Abrahamson, whose don't more to campaign for her robes, than Bella Abzug did wearing hats.

At least you put your message out there. People judge the two parties ... and then they "stick with one."

How come there's no discussion that would lead republicans to recognize their shortfall?

Coleman-Franken? When he got sworn in he said all he had was something like 156 more votes than Coleman.

Our system is "winner take all!" We're not run like a parliament. Where every extremist, getting a seat or two, needs to be offered "goodies" for votes.

Well, what if shopworn messages keep voters from voting for republicans? Why do democrats have these political advantages?; 4/6/11, 3:48 PM
Anonymous said...: "And, the police get to "watch over" the ballots when people call it a night."

Well, since the corrupt police are all members of the union that will benefit from Kloppenburg's election, then I guess the election is a foregone conclusion.

I guess it wasn't too smart to allow corrupt cops to unionize, was it Wisconsin?

Get in bed with whores ... you wake up with 'em too.; 4/6/11, 3:52 PM
Michael said...: This is what is known as a lefty landslide. We will see if the unions get their money's worth with this judge. In any event the money is spent and can't be used on the next campaign. In the meantime I think there are multiple maneuvers what can be taken to get the union check off eliminated which will strain further the union coffers. If you are a union member and this is what you get for your dues you have to be wondering about the leadership.; 4/6/11, 3:54 PM
SteveR said...: It would be a safe bet, and not attributing it to anything nefarious, to expect the current led to expand. Add in nefarious reasons and it would expand even more.; 4/6/11, 3:56 PM
Jeremy said...: Palladian said..."Judging from photographs of Kloppenburg, it's the last man date she's likely to get."

This from a tub of lard artist wannabe.

Post a picture of yourself, fat man...if it'll fit in frame.; 4/6/11, 3:57 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael - "This is what is known as a lefty landslide."

How is it any different than any election won by a Republican in a very close race?

Is there anything you don't bitch and whine about?; 4/6/11, 3:58 PM
Anonymous said...: If you are a union member and this is what you get for your dues you have to be wondering about the leadership."

What they got was a victory.

Their corrupt judge they backed won the election and she'll now receive $1.5 million of your tax dollars for her trouble. She hit the fucking lottery!

Why shouldn't union members feel good about their leadership?

They won.

Look, this is the corrupt system that Wisconsin voters want. They want it corrupt and so it will stay corrupt.

The union should be proud of its win.

Got them a judge they do.; 4/6/11, 3:58 PM
The Ghost said...: Wow, another slim Republican lead in that region disappears overnight. Whoever could have forseen.

"How come there's no discussion that would lead republicans to recognize their shortfall?"

Because this always happens. Statistically speaking, it shouldn't matter if Republicans' favor small government or satanic worship. These elections that come in close under heavy national attention should split roughly 50-50. And yet, the Republican never seems to wins practical ties in states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Washington - states whose blue-ness is ideological rather than civic.

I wonder if a student "found" another even 100 votes that she "forgot" "in the back of her car" this time, like the Michigan girl who luckily realized she had 100 extra votes, all for Franken (and Obama! She couldn't even be arsed to concoct a realistic split).; 4/6/11, 3:59 PM
Jeremy said...: Browndog - WAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Poor wittle baby.; 4/6/11, 4:00 PM
Crimso said...: "Plutocrats took one on the chin in Wisconsin."

They may have lost Wisconsin, but at least they still have their own planet. Oh, wait...; 4/6/11, 4:02 PM
PaulV said...: Count all the votes, even military votes; 4/6/11, 4:04 PM
Anonymous said...: "How is it any different than any election won by a Republican in a very close race?"

It's different because with Tea Party support, the Republican would have won.

But the Tea Party isn't going to support candidates like Prosser who have shady backgrounds and a complete lack of any ethical judgment.

The Republican Party of Wisconsin should be more careful about the candidates it fields. Those who are not conservative and who have questionable dealings in their past will be removed from office along with all the corrupt Democrats.

We're cleaning BOTH houses - starting with our own.; 4/6/11, 4:04 PM
Sloanasaurus said...: In Minnesota during the Franken/Coleman recount, out of 2.4 million votes cast, an additional 1700 votes were added to the total. Coleman led by 215 votes after the initial tally. Then led by 12 votes after the first machine recount. In the hand recount, Coleman picked up 600 votes and Franken 1100.

No doubt there was a lot of fraud involved and a lot of ineligible voters voted for Franken...

Thus, the 200 point lead by Klop is irrelevant at this point. I am surprised she "declared victory"; 4/6/11, 4:04 PM
Anonymous said...: Destroying votes in heavy Prosser districts?; 4/6/11, 4:06 PM
Sloanasaurus said...: My guess is that a hand recount favors Prosser in the Wisconsin case. IN normal elections the recounts favor democrats because they have a lot of "new" voters. But this election was not about new voters. It was about the unions getting their union members to the polls.; 4/6/11, 4:06 PM
Jeremy said...: The Ghost Buster - "I wonder if a student "found" another even 100 votes that she "forgot" "in the back of her car" this time, like the Michigan girl who luckily realized she had 100 extra votes, all for Franken (and Obama! She couldn't even be arsed to concoct a realistic split).

Uh...isn't this what actually happened?

Written by
Bea Chang, KARE
11- 7-08 09:12 AM

"A typo in Pine County got fixed Thursday, giving Al Franken 100 more votes and tightening Minnesota's unresolved Senate race even tighter.

Republican Sen. Norm Coleman's lead over Democrat Al Franken stood at 236 votes Thursday night.

With nearly 2.9 million ballots cast, the difference between the top two candidates is about one one-hundredth of a percentage point.

In Pine County, an election official accidentally entered 24 votes for Franken on Tuesday night instead of the 124 he actually received. The mistake was caught on Thursday and the numbers changed, said Jim Gelbmann from the Secretary of State's office."; 4/6/11, 4:07 PM
Jeremy said...: Slopasaurus - "No doubt there was a lot of fraud involved and a lot of ineligible voters voted for Franken..."

Based on what...a teabagger's view of the universe?; 4/6/11, 4:09 PM
Michael said...: Jeremy: a. I am not bitching because I don't care, in fact I am rather amused that the extraordinary and muscular effort of the unions produced this anemic margin. b. I think a liberal party based on this outcome would be known as a premature celebration, because c. Judges often behave differently than expected; 4/6/11, 4:09 PM
MadisonMan said...: Interesting map of the results.; 4/6/11, 4:10 PM
Brian Brown said...: AlphaLiberal said...

And on cue the legions of Republicans start braying "voter fraud" like the sore losers do anytime they lose an election.

You mean like shouting "Diebold" when Kerry lost to Bush?

Or did you mean Sore/Loserman and their hanging chads?; 4/6/11, 4:11 PM
Placeholder said...: All voting should be by optical scanners. I don't trust computer voting machines. That ought to be a non-partisan issue.; 4/6/11, 4:16 PM
Jeremy said...: Michael - Well, based on all of the pre-election hype, and the supposed huge lead the Republican had...it does stand out as a pretty substantial turnaround.

And if you think it was ONLY union members who voted you're out of your mind.

Considering the fact that even with a Democratic victory, Prosser will be around long enough to thwart any real effort relating to the Walker moves, it's all about what happens next.

I have to admit, it is always fun to read the never ending whining and bitching via the local teabagger tribe here.

In literally every election, if the candidate they support loses...it always comes down to voter fraud or as you say, some kind of "extraordinary and muscular effort of the unions" or heaven forbid...any group that is not far, far right.; 4/6/11, 4:17 PM
Jeremy said...: Placeholder - "All voting should be by optical scanners. I don't trust computer voting machines. That ought to be a non-partisan issue."

Yeah, that shouldn't be very expensive at all.

And with all of the money the federal, state and local governments have right now, it shouldn't be a tough sell.

Put it in the suggestion box and let us know what happens.; 4/6/11, 4:19 PM
Famous Original Mike said...: Of COURSE they destroyed ballots from Prosser-heavy counties. They're Democrats, it's what they do.

:); 4/6/11, 4:20 PM
Dustin said...: "the supposed huge lead the Republican had...it does stand out as a pretty substantial turnaround."

LOL.

What in the hell are you talking about?

Prosser called his colleage "bitch", and the unions claimed WI was hugely going to rebuke Walker because the last election was not legitimate for some reason.

Apparently they were wrong.

If you break the state down into districts, it's clear the Republicans who support Walker are going to keep supporting Walker. They will be reelected. Democrats will lose more power.

And all along, I guess you can pretend they were set to lose more power than they lost, the way dems reacted in 2010.

LOL.; 4/6/11, 4:20 PM
garage mahal said...: Prosser campaign says, not to worry, "there’s plenty of reason to believe there’s unrecognized opportunity to deliver a victory."

Uh, okay?; 4/6/11, 4:25 PM
Hal Duston said...: I'll just note that the final AP results for Fond Du Lac county are 312 votes fewer for Prosser, and 210 votes fewer for Kloppenburg that the numbers noted by KLDAVIS at 11:11 PM last night. Also Richland has reduced Prosser's count by 5 votes from this morning's numbers.

wv: boosit. What I hope wasn't done to the vote counts.; 4/6/11, 4:28 PM
TWM said...: Ever notice that Alpha and Jeremy only show up with something good happens for liberals? Everyone else is here good or bad, but those two never have the courage to hang around when the going gets tough.

Thing is, it's not that good a thing for libs. And certainly not the unions. This woman will no doubt rule against Walker in this case - she's campaigned on it after all - but it will get passed again.; 4/6/11, 4:30 PM
Calypso Facto said...: Your map reminded me of this UW system map, MadMan. 10 of 13 counties with a 4-year public university went strongly for Kloppenburg.

Guess we know who got out the vote!; 4/6/11, 4:32 PM
Michael K said...: It's not much of a recommendation for Wisconsin voters when an incumbent justice is defeated by an openly partisan backed by huge amounts of union money and workers. The fact that it was this close is the only mitigating circumstance. It is amusing to see those late precincts from lefty areas show up last. That trick is so old that Boss Tweed probably thought of it.; 4/6/11, 4:33 PM
Roux said...: She will have to decide with the unions on the case and because of that she must recuse herself.; 4/6/11, 4:34 PM
Unknown said...: AlphaLiberal said...

And on cue the legions of Republicans start braying "voter fraud" like the sore losers do anytime they lose an election.

Gee whiz, like it hasn't been happening in every close election in the last 50 years.

PS Alpha/Freder/Montaigne and J/Jeremy are mad because everyone's wise to the game. It was so much better when everybody just rolled over and took it.

Then again, maybe they're afraid one day people will refuse to take it and then they'll find out how much of a minority they're really in; 4/6/11, 4:37 PM
chickelit said...: That trick is so old that Boss Tweed probably thought of it.

It can't be a Boss tweed trick because C4-BDH was running around here the other day telling everybody how awful Boss Tweed was. And we know that C4-BDH is hot for Kloppenburg.; 4/6/11, 4:41 PM
rhhardin said...: Prosser should concede quickly, just to show how it's done.; 4/6/11, 4:46 PM
Toad Trend said...: @Alpha

"And on cue the legions of Republicans start braying "voter fraud" like the sore losers do anytime they lose an election."

Heh, only problem with that is that 9 out of 10 car trunks surveyed prefer to reveal democrat-voting absentee ballots.

Pogo's FU-CK theory in play. Franken units.

There's some cheese for your whine.; 4/6/11, 4:51 PM
Patrick said...: Alpha, you're just nuts, or you have a childlike understanding of the three branches of government. Of course the judiciary is a complement to the legislative and executive branches. The key is to make sure it doesn't supersede its own authority at the expense of the other two.

By the way, how'd your side come out on the whole civility thing? From here, it kind of looks like all you really wanted to do was have people with whom you disagree stop speaking. sure didn't see a lot of civility from the Mad town protesters.; 4/6/11, 4:52 PM
Patrick said...: "Wisconsin Republicans are hard at work to make it more difficult for voters to vote, so they can better rig elections."

Yeah, ID is sooo hard to show. Funny how it's always the same side that is trying to make election fraud easier. Just doing the bidding of their union overlords.; 4/6/11, 4:54 PM
m stone said...: Prosser should concede quickly, just to show how it's done

I agree RH, but it is entertaining to see the liberal commenters being so energized in this thread.; 4/6/11, 4:56 PM
garage mahal said...: Prosser should concede quickly, just to show how it's done

It's the right and ethical thing to do isn't it?; 4/6/11, 5:03 PM
Sloanasaurus said...: And on cue the legions of Republicans start braying "voter fraud" like the sore losers do anytime they lose an election.

I recall that 15 democrats were convicted of voter fraud just last year in Milwaukee.... Were they wrongly convicted?; 4/6/11, 5:04 PM
foxtrot said...: Holmes says:

"Real irony would be Kloppenburg upholding the law"

The Alpha Liberals says: "Why do you say that? Do you know?"

To AL: Are you really that naive to think that Kloppenburg, who has participated with unions in the past, will be impartial to the issue of the repair bill? Why were my TA union and other unions endorsing her? Because she will resort to all types of bullshit to repeal the bill.

She has bleeding Madison liberal written all over her face.; 4/6/11, 5:09 PM
Sloanasaurus said...: If Klop has to go out and raise a bunch of money for a recount lawsuit (which is very expensive), it could be kind of awkward, since apparently no one actually voted for her - they were voting against Walker.

The unions will find the money somewehere - maybe from the recall election funds.; 4/6/11, 5:14 PM
foxtrot said...: garage mahal says:

"It's the right and ethical thing to do isn't it?"

No liberal would concede in an election like this. The left are masters of voter fraud, lawsuits and political coups to overturn anything that they didn't win fair and square.; 4/6/11, 5:14 PM
Dustin said...: Doesn't it seem hilarious that the unions don't go all out for other judges... judges who merely follow the law one way or the other, but went all out for Klopp... who is totally impartial?

Recuse Kloppenburg Now from any cases involving criminal law (given the horrible Prosser ad) and any cases involving civil law (because she's a union shill).

Also, cancel her Sam's club membership because she looks like an alien.; 4/6/11, 5:14 PM
Roger J. said...: really--who gives a damn about what the brain damaged voters in Wisconsin think--they want K burg, great--they got her

in the meanwhile other states are doing quite well in eviscorating public unions--Wisconsin is a bellwether for stupidity.

Enjoy your voting outcome--continue to pay high taxes and watch the flight of captial from your state

you are the northern equivalent of mississippi--except Mississippi does much better than you idiots.; 4/6/11, 5:19 PM
Bill said...: Roger,
You're not a particularly bright individual, are you?; 4/6/11, 5:22 PM
Jeremy said...: 19 Counties Flip To Dems In Wis. Supreme Court Election; 4/6/11, 5:28 PM
Big Mike said...: You poor bastards. You poor, sorry, Wisconsin bastards.; 4/6/11, 5:29 PM
Jeremy said...: Roger La Dolt - " really--who gives a damn about what the brain damaged voters in Wisconsin think..."

"Wisconsin is a bellwether for stupidity..."

"you are the northern equivalent of mississippi--except Mississippi does much better than you idiots..."

Aren't you also referring to the same people those who voted Walker into office?

Duh.; 4/6/11, 5:31 PM
Placeholder said...: Optical scanning is the cheapest and the most reliable method of counting votes. The expensive way is to use the computerized touch screens.; 4/6/11, 5:33 PM
Placeholder said...: "you are the northern equivalent of mississippi--except Mississippi does much better than you idiots."

Holy cow. Someone made your whine with some very, very sour grapes. Poor crybaby! Poor wingnut crybaby!; 4/6/11, 5:35 PM
Jeremy said...: A few weeks ago the Wisconsin voters were depicted here as being brilliant for voting Walker into office.

Now, they're suddenly the dumbest group of voters on the planet...and deserve what they get.

This really gives you an idea of the intellectual capacity of The Queen and her loyal sidekick Needy's teabagger sycophants.

Cynical and dumb as a giant bag of rocks.; 4/6/11, 5:36 PM
Jeremy said...: Ren - "Roger, You're not a particularly bright individual, are you?"

You-got-that-right.; 4/6/11, 5:38 PM
Unknown said...: And just to give J/Jeremy and Alpha/Freder/Montaigne that true Lefty feeling of moral superiority and populist righteousness, there's this story of Mequon shredding ballots.

Of course, the fact that they were probably republican votes means they didn't count anyway, right, boys?; 4/6/11, 5:47 PM
Toad Trend said...: @Roger J

"...public unions--Wisconsin is a bellwether for stupidity."

@Jeremy

"Aren't you also referring to the same people those who voted Walker into office?

Duh."

@Placeholder

"Optical scanning is the cheapest and the most reliable method of counting votes. The expensive way is to use the computerized touch screens."

@Jeremy

"...dumb as a giant bag of rocks."; 4/6/11, 5:49 PM
MadisonMan said...: I've seen several people reference that story from Mequon. Were the ballots filled out, or not?

What does submitted, but not cast mean?

I think it's SOP to discard via shredding unused ballots after an election.; 4/6/11, 5:52 PM
Conserve Liberty said...: The real allegations of fraud are now starting:

Ballots shredded in Mequon in Ozaukee County

Vote Fraud Allegation

Whether this election was stolen after-the-fact or just influenced by out-of-state campaign money, Wisconsin citizens have been pawns in a larger, cynical power war that doesn't serve their interests or reflect their will.; 4/6/11, 5:53 PM
MadisonMan said...: Several people, plus one, now.; 4/6/11, 5:55 PM
Jeremy said...: Don't Tread 2012 - When Roger says: "Wisconsin is a bellwether for stupidity."

Is he not also referring to "the same people those who voted Walker into office?"; 4/6/11, 5:56 PM
garage mahal said...: The real allegations of fraud are now starting:

As opposed to all the fake fraud allegations?; 4/6/11, 5:57 PM
Jeremy said...: edutcher - Until I see more information relating to the "voter fraud" you reference, it mean little if anything.

How do you or anyone know if it's true or not?; 4/6/11, 5:57 PM
Dustin said...: "A few weeks ago the Wisconsin voters were depicted here as being brilliant for voting Walker into office.

Now, they're suddenly the dumbest group of voters on the planet...and deserve what they get."

I think what you're doing is cherry picking (from memory rather than quoting) comments from a large, diverse group of people, to manufacture a contradiction because you're obsessed with bashing Althouse.

It's funny how people actually make the things that overshadow their misery.; 4/6/11, 5:58 PM
Toad Trend said...: @Jeremy

"When Roger says: "Wisconsin is a bellwether for stupidity."

Is he not also referring to "the same people those who voted Walker into office?"

Maybe not.; 4/6/11, 6:05 PM
Jeremy said...: The Grand Inquisitor "I think what you're doing is cherry picking (from memory rather than quoting) comments from a large, diverse group of people, to manufacture a contradiction because you're obsessed with bashing Althouse."

That's bullshit.

You can go back and read all kinds of comments via the teabagger tribe here, lavishing praise to high heaven about what a wonderful, brave governor Walker is, and how brilliant the voters of Wisconsin are for voting him in and standing behind him.

Now, suddenly, many of these same Wisconsin voters are depicted as morons because they voted for someone that represents another point of view.

The Queen and Needy are merely the conduits of the teabagger chum, gobbled up and regurgitated by their loyal sycophants.

And I wouldn't rule out a strong push to recall the asshole, too.; 4/6/11, 6:05 PM
Jeremy said...: Don't Tread 2012 - Oh, I see.

So for whatever reason, when Roger refers to the "Wisconsin voters" being stupid...he's ONLY referring to those who didn't vote the way you, he and others here think they should vote?

None of the voters who voted for Walker, changed their view after seeing what a prick he is? These are ALL new voters who stayed away from the polls during the previous election?

GFL with that.

This was a referendum on the heavy-handed actions of Walker and the rest of the Republicans...and of of course you already know that.

You and others here just can't bring yourselves to admit to the obvious.

It's nothing new.; 4/6/11, 6:11 PM
Carol_Herman said...: How come Prosser got no edge for being the incumbent?

It's not the meager "spread" worth noticing. But the other end of the number. Where voters were split down the middle.

Doesn't this mean a woman candidate is trusted more than the incumbent repubilcan?

As to the "pedophile" mud slinging, Catholics as a general rule, vote for democrats.

What was Prosser doing for ten years, that he came off as "popular" as David Souter?; 4/6/11, 6:12 PM
Conserve Liberty said...: Garage said: As opposed to all the fake fraud allegations?

The real fraud allegations (remember, alleged is not yet proven) differ from the bonehead statements bt fly-by readers.

And dismissing same as sour grapes proves my earlier point about the shame of politics since 2000.; 4/6/11, 6:13 PM
ken in tx said...: Republicans should not go like Nixon on this, who conceded even though he knew about voter fraud, but like Gore. Protest, contest, sue, don't stop until the last avenue is closed. You can use all your arguments, whether you win or lose, in the next election.; 4/6/11, 6:16 PM
Peano said...: The People's Republic of Wisconsin lives on.; 4/6/11, 6:17 PM
Placeholder said...: How come Prosser got no edge for being the incumbent?

He did. That's why it was so close. If he hadn't been an incumbent, the Democratic non-partisan candidate would've won by 10 points.; 4/6/11, 6:17 PM
Jeremy said...: The Grand Inquisitor "It's funny how people actually make the things that overshadow their misery."

Geee, that's a real keeper..."people actually make the things that overshadow their misery..."

Wow.

So pithy, so deep...so ridiculous.; 4/6/11, 6:19 PM
Placeholder said...: p.s.: How come Republicans are always such assholes?; 4/6/11, 6:19 PM
Unknown said...: It's interesting to see the democratic party with no ideas squeak by with 204 votes while the republican party with bad ideas is shunned for the thought of voter fraud. Remember bush vs gore? How many "hanging chads" does kloppenburg get to count?; 4/6/11, 6:20 PM
David said...: So far there's no "there" there in the confused Mequon story. Mequon is very solidly Republican. There would be lots of Republican poll watchers and poll workers. The story has been pushed by a radio talk show guy. I give it zero credibility until I see more.; 4/6/11, 6:22 PM
David said...: "How many "hanging chads" does kloppenburg get to count?"

None--no punch cards in Wisconsin.; 4/6/11, 6:24 PM
Phil 314 said...: Don't feed the trolls; 4/6/11, 6:29 PM
Jeremy said...: jonarndt "How many "hanging chads" does kloppenburg get to count?"

What difference does it make if the Republicans can count on some of those nasty, horrible "activist" judges to decide who wins?; 4/6/11, 6:36 PM
Placeholder said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 4/6/11, 6:38 PM
Jeremy said...: Phil 3:14 - Just because you can't count on everybody to agree with you, Phil...it doesn't make them "trolls"...it makes them the opposition.

But what is it about others having opinions with which you disagree that gets you so upset?

If you can't make your argument stand up against any counter, why not just take a fucking hike?; 4/6/11, 6:39 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Placeholder said:

"the Democratic non-partisan candidate"

Was that a serious description or are you being sarcastic?; 4/6/11, 6:40 PM
Unknown said...: Jeremy said...

edutcher - Until I see more information relating to the "voter fraud" you reference, it mean little if anything.

Of course, it means nothing - it's in his favor, but it certainly puts the lie to the idea the vote is a repudiation of Walker.

PS Actually, I think it's a sign the Demos are scared. They can't post enough votes in an election this well-funded, so the vote-stealing machine was set up ahead of time.

Get used to more of this until enough people get sick of being cheated.; 4/6/11, 6:43 PM
Placeholder said...: People who are honestly worried about fraud in Wisconsin or anywhere else should check into this blog. The guy has been on the faulty voting machine issue for a long time.

Turns out that the accuracy of the Wisconsin count is by no meas assured. I have always believed that vote counting integrity ought to be a issue that everyone could agree on.

The time to work on it is between elections. If you actually care, that is. I have always doubted that very many people really care about the issue. In fact, I think there are some who would prefer bad systems, as a way of undermining public confidence in the electoral system, and government itself.; 4/6/11, 6:44 PM
Placeholder said...: Was that a serious description or are you being sarcastic?

Both. Campaign rhetoric aside, who can argue that it was in any way a non-partisan race?; 4/6/11, 6:46 PM
Jeremy said...: edutcher - Instead of possibly ending up looking like a complete fool, wouldn't it be in your best interest to see whether the "voter fraud" you refer to is actually true?; 4/6/11, 6:46 PM
Ricardo said...: As Scalia said: "Get over it."; 4/6/11, 6:47 PM
Placeholder said...: I doubt edutcher wants the "fraud" issue investigated and solved. It's much more in the interest of the loser to cry "fraud" and never have the accusation investigated.; 4/6/11, 6:53 PM
Conserve Liberty said...: David said:

So far there's no "there" there in the confused Mequon story. Mequon is very solidly Republican. There would be lots of Republican poll watchers and poll workers. The story has been pushed by a radio talk show guy. I give it zero credibility until I see more.

The question isn't whether there is any merit (yet) to the claims, nor whether a radio personality has stature to pursue the claims.

The question is whether the claims will be fairly and openly investigated, answered, resolved as necessary and reported, or whether they will be obfuscated, delayed and litigated ad infinitum,.

The fact that Prosser had a clear majority in that county is irrelevant. If 210 net votes that would have been valid for Prosser were destroyed, well . . .

Even had they been valid for Kloppenberg . . .

And the shame still is that no one will ever trust a close election in this country again.

Even if we required picture ID's, paper ballots and perfect machine reporting there is still no sense of shame by those who are in a position to cheat (precinct captains) to keep them from cheating.; 4/6/11, 6:54 PM
Dustin said...: "Wow.

So pithy, so deep...so ridiculous."

I'm not trying to be clever. It's clear a lot of you losers have a creepy problem with Althouse, based on something they concocted in their own heads. so many of your guys go out of your way to dehumanize yourself with rhetoric not meant to persuade, but rather just dumb impotent flailing.

OK, you don't like Althouse, and your reasons are weird. Don't you think you should ... go away?; 4/6/11, 6:58 PM
Placeholder said...: Even if we required picture ID's, paper ballots and perfect machine reporting there is still no sense of shame by those who are in a position to cheat (precinct captains) to keep them from cheating.

Mail-in voting is the way to go. Oregon doesn't even have polling places anymore, and more than half of the voting in WA is by mail.; 4/6/11, 6:59 PM
Brian Brown said...: the Democratic non-partisan candidate would've won by 10 points.

Ah yes, Democrats are so non-partisan.; 4/6/11, 7:00 PM
Placeholder said...: @Jay, that was a pretty stupid comment, even for a wingnut.; 4/6/11, 7:01 PM
Carol_Herman said...: National Review OnLine has a piece up, with John Fund actually in a film clip. (Which doesn't copy, here.)

In Dane County there are THOUSANDS of ballots where ONLY Kloppenburg's name is checked off. And, the rest of the ballot is left blank.

There's also KNOWN the voter fraud of "same day" registration. Where there are THOUSANDS of votes, but all the post cards came back, instead of verifying addresses, as "returned mail." People didn't live there.

John Fund said this may be just like Bush v. Gore 2000.

Fund also said that the Wisconsin Supreme Court is the one state most office cited by our Supreme Court. Bar none, it was the best State Supreme Court in the system.

Anyway, here's part of National Review OnLine's article:

Wisconsin Sends a Message
April 6, 2011 11:48 A.M.
By Gary Marx

Justice Prosser: “I’ve weathered the nuclear blast and I’m still standing.”

With Turnout nearly double normal levels for state supreme-court races, at nearly 1.5 million votes cast, Wisconsin’s silent majority sent a message yesterday. While the screaming union organizers in the streets got all the media attention and turned out every last liberal they could to the polls, it was not enough. Event with all their vitriol against Gov. Scott Walker, the Left could not even eclipse President Obama’s 2008 election margins in key liberal strong holds like Dane County (Madison) and Milwaukee. As we stand on the precipice of a recount, we can stand assured that even voters in a blue state like Wisconsin understand the role of a judge is one of judicial restraint and not to be a rubber stamp for the Left and union organizers.; 4/6/11, 7:10 PM
Revenant said...: The problem with elections this close is that they can never be decided satisfactorily. Between human error, machine error, and deliberate fraud it will always be possible to construct a plausible scenario under which the election should have gone the other way.

This problem didn't start with Bush v Gore and it won't end with this latest election. It is an inherent problem with systems that use anonymous voting.

It would take state and federal constitutional amendments, and wouldn't help avoid this sort of mess, but we probably ought to start mandating an automatic new election between the first and second place finishers when the vote is within 1% or so.; 4/6/11, 7:13 PM
DADvocate said...: Why do a majority of Americans hold the other party in higher esteem,...

Because the Democrats promise to tak money from the rich and give it to them in some form or another. It doesn't matter what the Dems really do with the money or drive the country into bankruptcy, just that they take if from those evil rich folks.; 4/6/11, 7:15 PM
Placeholder said...: It would take state and federal constitutional amendments, and wouldn't help avoid this sort of mess, but we probably ought to start mandating an automatic new election between the first and second place finishers when the vote is within 1% or so.

Hey Gomer, there were only two candidates in this one. Got any more bright ideas?; 4/6/11, 7:15 PM
Conserve Liberty said...: Even if we required picture ID's, paper ballots and perfect machine reporting there is still no sense of shame by those who are in a position to cheat (precinct captains) to keep them from cheating.

Mail-in voting is the way to go. Oregon doesn't even have polling places anymore, and more than half of the voting in WA is by mail.

You're pretty reasonable, unlike some others here, so I'm extending this conversation beyond my usual two-post maximum.

People still have to open the ballots and count them - and they will still cheat to have their way, as was demonstrated when a bag with several thousand net votes cast for Gregoire miraculously appeared during the second recount.

Mail in votes open the entire system to even more potential cheating.

Register to vote well in advance of the election.

Verify the voter rolls.

Go to the polls, show your picture ID cross-referenced with the voter rolls, cast your ballot and go to work.

If you aren't on the list, tough - you don't vote (happened to me once). Voter rights carry some responsibility - and don't tell me it isn't worth taking an afternoon of personal time ONCE to visit the county Board of Election Commissioners.

This isn't rocket science. It is so logical that those who object have some ulterior motive (or are so altrusitic as to refuse to see the practical limits of their altruism).; 4/6/11, 7:18 PM
DADvocate said...: They may have lost Wisconsin, but at least they still have their own planet. Oh, wait...

I thought a Plutocrat was someone who liked Mickey Mouse's dog.; 4/6/11, 7:18 PM
Roux said...: I predict that the unions and the Dems will have found to have cheated but it will be too late to do anything about it.; 4/6/11, 7:27 PM
Sprezzatura said...: ed,

What would you say if I told you that extremely liberal Dane county was caught shredding ballots?

Would you say that the libs were shredding the ballots for Prosser?

And, when the hardcore Prosser district is supposedly caught shredding ballots you assume that they must have been shredding Prosser's ballots.

It seems more likely that the cons were shredding the libs ballots, rather than their own.

Just sayin'; 4/6/11, 7:27 PM
DADvocate said...: Has Jeremy been too busy fondling himself that last couple of hours to comment? Winning elections is better than sex.

The man who'd rather win an election than have sex:

Woman: Let's go into the bedroom and I can pull your lever.

Man: Just a minute. Let me see what the tally is in the next update.

Woman: I'll make your tally whacker really happy.

Man: The update's coming up in just a minute.

Woman: That's not all that'll be coming up if you come into the bedroom

Man: I just have to see if we win.

Woman: Well! You won't be the winner, you loser. I"m going out! Don't wait up for me, needle dick.

Man: Huh! OK. Great! Here comes the update.; 4/6/11, 7:28 PM
Revenant said...: Why do a majority of Americans hold the other party in higher esteem

Actually, the majority of Americans think that BOTH parties are so bad that a third party is needed.

It is true, though, that on most issues the minority of Americans who think Democrats are better than Republicans is slightly larger than the minority of Americans who think Republicans are better than Democrats.; 4/6/11, 7:28 PM
Placeholder said...: People still have to open the ballots and count them - and they will still cheat to have their way, as was demonstrated when a bag with several thousand net votes cast for Gregoire miraculously appeared during the second recount.

I was born and raised in Wisconsin and live in Seattle. Been in a bunch of places, voted a lot of different ways. Done the victory dance, cried the bitter tears.

The best way to vote is filling in a scannable ballot, then mailing it in. You have to sign that ballot, and give an address. There's no same-day registration and voting.

People who vote fraudulently in WA can be, and occasionally are, tracked down and prosecuted. I doubt any of the Gregoire-Rossi junk would've happened had we been 100% mail-in here.

Fraud by vote-counters tossing away ballots? Anything's possible, but the practicalities don't support it. You've got a lot of votes to count, really fast.

The one change I'd make in WA is to require that the ballot be RECEIVED by election day.

Beyond that, I'd also look into touch-tone telephone voting. Unlike the Internet, the telephone system is highly secure and very, very difficult to crack. It would be easy and very cheap.

You and I would be voting differently, but at least we'd know our votes were counted accurately.; 4/6/11, 7:29 PM
Hagar said...: Not a peep about the Wisconsin election on the alphabet soup Evening News!

Wv: taffying - indeed!; 4/6/11, 7:32 PM
Sprezzatura said...: "The one change I'd make in WA is to require that the ballot be RECEIVED by election day."

This essentially ends the campaign before election day for many voters.

Postmarked by election day is better. Folks can wait to experience the whole campaign.

And, this is especially unfair for folks overseas. They shouldn't be disenfranchised because of unpredictable mail delivery.; 4/6/11, 7:38 PM
Revenant said...: "It would take state and federal constitutional amendments, and wouldn't help avoid this sort of mess, but we probably ought to start mandating an automatic new election between the first and second place finishers when the vote is within 1% or so."

Hey Gomer, there were only two candidates in this one. Got any more bright ideas?

My previous post has now been bolded for your convenience. :); 4/6/11, 7:41 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: We could cut down voter fraud by publishing on the internets the names and the addresses of whoever voted. And do it within 30 days after an election. Then interested citizens could scan the lists and report "neighbors" who don't live where they said they lived.; 4/6/11, 7:45 PM
Placeholder said...: @pbAndJ, I'm not crying too many tears for them. And I say that as someone who's done a lot of international travel. It's a rare situation indeed where you can't vote if you want to. Just takes some planning.

There is the issue of military votes, but I see no reason why a military member can't get the ballot in on time, given the realities of how the military moves mail.

Besides, if there was a touch-tone option, mail wouldn't be an issue. It could be easily verifiable, and highly secure.; 4/6/11, 7:47 PM
Placeholder said...: We could cut down voter fraud by publishing on the internets the names and the addresses of whoever voted. And do it within 30 days after an election. Then interested citizens could scan the lists and report "neighbors" who don't live where they said they lived.

That sounds like a good idea to me.; 4/6/11, 7:48 PM
Placeholder said...: My previous post has now been bolded for your convenience. :)

I'll tell you, Pyle ...

- Sgt. Carter; 4/6/11, 7:50 PM
Sprezzatura said...: For the record, I (using my Seattle address as my voting address) usually mail in my ballot early. The few situations where I haven't mailed it early, I've dropped it off at the appropriate precinct on election day.

BTW, Shout out for my peeps (maybe incl placeholder) in Tangletown.; 4/6/11, 7:52 PM
rhhardin said...: The worry about accuracy is misguided.

No matter what you do, you can't get it accurate beyond a certain point.

Simultaneously, it matters least when that demand for accuracy arises.

If the election is close, democracy doesn't gain anything from a more accurate count. It's 50-50. Toss a coin. Half are happy and half are not, either way.

The vote itself might as well be the coin, and be done with it.

What does matter is not the last-vote accuracy but that the vote be final, not the courts, and not an emerging campaign of discovered vote suitcases.

The voters flipped the coin, let that settle the matter the first time.

That's why Nixon accepted defeat when he in fact won. He didn't want to undermine the finality of the voters' say, which is what is important to democracy.

All systematic fraud does is move the closeness point from 50% to say 53%. You still are able to toss the bastards out, when it gets obvious enough, so don't worry about it.

Work in improving your rhetoric before the election instead.

If you want a real improvement in the US system, take away women's vote.

The loss of soap opera sound bites in campaigns would be huge, improving everything.; 4/6/11, 7:58 PM
Revenant said...: And, this is especially unfair for folks overseas. They shouldn't be disenfranchised because of unpredictable mail delivery.

We could eliminate mail-in ballots and replace them with secure online voting. There is no such thing, anymore, as an American with no access to the internet, even if it is only available through schools and libraries.

Another idea I've been kicking around is having voter registration be handled by -- AND ONLY by -- filing your tax return. This would make fraud a lot harder, but registration a lot easier.; 4/6/11, 7:58 PM
Placeholder said...: Biggest reason I'd require the ballots to be received by election day is to avoid suspicion in ultra-close races. You've got to cut it off at some point anyway. People who want to "experience the whole campaign" can drop it off then.; 4/6/11, 7:59 PM
Placeholder said...: We could eliminate mail-in ballots and replace them with secure online voting.

I have an telecommunications background and can tell you that the Internet (i.e., TCP/IP sent via routers) is not secure and cannot be made secure within our lifetimes. But the telephone system? It was designed to be a bank vault pretty much from Day One.

I say this as someone who loves and uses the Internet. But the minute we run elections on it is the minute everyone should know that we no longer have elections.; 4/6/11, 8:04 PM
Chennaul said...: There is the issue of military votes, but I see no reason why a military member can't get the ballot in on time, given the realities of how the military moves mail.

Maybe it's got something to do with-well let me tell you a little story about-

Ed Rendell.

Ed Rendell was once chair of the Democrat Party, then he grew up to be the Governor of Pennsylvania.

*******

Rendell Flip Came After Exposure of Jailhouse Vote Drive

Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell's decision Friday morning to seek an extension for absentee ballots returned by soldiers serving overseascame less than 24-hours after Rep. Curt Weldon accused him of mounting an absentee ballot vote drive for his state's prison population while disenfranchising the military.

"I've been in office twenty-three years and I've never had any governor send a nine-page document to our prison wardens across the state, telling them that they had to post a document in every cell block to allow our prisoners to vote by absentee ballot," Weldon told ABC radio host Sean Hannity on Thursday.

"I'm friends with Ed Rendell, too," an angry Weldon continued. "But I've go to call a pig, a pig. I've got to call something the way it is. To me it's purely partisan. This is about Pennsylvania being a very close state."
Asked point blank if he though Rendell was trying to "disenfranchise" military voters in his state, Weldon told Hannity, "That's exactly what he's doing. I have soldiers emailing me from overseas . . . Marines coming up to me saying, 'I have friends who haven't got their absentee ballot."

Asked how many prisoners would take advantage of Gov. Rendell's absentee ballot outreach, Weldon said, "I have no idea."

Surveys show that two-thirds of active-duty military back President Bush, while the same proportion of the prison population supports John Kerry.

In announcing his decision to seek an extension for military voters, Rendell said Friday, "I've decided that one military or civilian overseas (voter) not getting a ballot in time is too much."

Rendell served as chairman of the Democratic National Committee during the 2000 election.

newsmax.com /archives; 4/6/11, 8:11 PM
Carol_Herman said...: I'm on a permanent list for an absentee ballot in every California election. What comes in the mail, besides the ballot, is the booklet that gives me the names of the candidates. And, the number on the ballot that needs to be circled. Plus, any of the PROPs that make it to the ballot.

After I put the completed ballot into the envelope, I have to sign the outside. As well as print my name. Failure to do this, would invalidate the ballot.

Once opened, however, the envelope is separated from my ballot. And, how I vote is kept secret.

I don't know the law on what is considered a "completed ballot." But, again, John Fund said it was unusual for Dane County, and Milwaukee, to have THOUSANDS of ballots cast for ONLY Kloppenberg, where everything else was left blank!

By the way, if a mistake is made on the absentee ballot, I can put it in the envelope, and on the back, list that I had made an error. And, yes. I get another absentee ballot via the mail.

If you make a mistake at a polling place, you can also request another ballot. And, one is voided. And, you're given another one. Then, when the polls close, all those volunteer workers have to account for every single ballot! Including the ones that were voided because of error.

No system is perfect.

But John Fund put the Dane County irregularities in the category of Bush v. Gore. (And, of course, this was also one of the last counties to report their results.)

THOUSANDS OF IRREGULARITIES!

Sure. Too bad the vote really does seem to split down the middle. But you'll notice that Kloppenburg hasn't declared victory, either. What's holding her back? (Legal issues?)

Absentee ballots don't go into the count until all the polling date is computed. If there's a wide enough spread at the top of the ticket, even "exit polling" can compute your presidential winnah.

Here? Where's the spread? Prosser should have done better.; 4/6/11, 8:14 PM
Revenant said...: I have an telecommunications background and can tell you that the Internet (i.e., TCP/IP sent via routers) is not secure and cannot be made secure within our lifetimes.

It can't be made perfectly secure. It is already more secure than the ballot box. If you've ever bought a book from Amazon, you've engaged in a transaction that was both more secure AND more verifiable than any vote you've ever cast.

Keep in mind that any attempt to interfere with the voting process would have to be both persistent and undetectable. That rules out pretty much everything, and what remains is a good deal more difficult than playing around with mail-in ballots.; 4/6/11, 8:22 PM
Placeholder said...: John Fund said it was unusual for Dane County, and Milwaukee, to have THOUSANDS of ballots cast for ONLY Kloppenberg, where everything else was left blank!

From God's lips to John Fund's ears? Besides, is there a law against voting in only one race? And let's see how many Prosser-only votes were recorded in Washington, Ozaukee, Fondulac and Waukesha counties. Republican fraud, you say?

But you'll notice that Kloppenburg hasn't declared victory, either. What's holding her back?

Um, nothing.; 4/6/11, 8:23 PM
Placeholder said...: It can't be made perfectly secure. It is already more secure than the ballot box. If you've ever bought a book from Amazon, you've engaged in a transaction that was both more secure AND more verifiable than any vote you've ever cast.

The Amazon transaction is verifiable mainly because they can match the payment to the person. But, for obvious reasons, you can't do that with votes.

Therefore, a hacker can easily get into the system from a number of angles. That's not so with the circuit-switched phone system. It's a different animal, orders of magnitude harder to hack than the packet-switched "Internet."

To go further than that would require a mind-numbing technical explanation. All I can tell you is that if elections ever go Internet, the game's over.

BTW, they'll never go via phone either. It's too cheap, too secure, and too sensible to ever be adopted. Some crony can't make enough money off of it.; 4/6/11, 8:30 PM
Placeholder said...: That rules out pretty much everything, and what remains is a good deal more difficult than playing around with mail-in ballots.

It's not "playing around." Mail-in voting is more convenient, and I've found that in practice I wind up spending more time researching my votes because I don't lose track as easily.; 4/6/11, 8:35 PM
Anonymous said...: Facebook won't let me share this post. Says it's been flagged as abusive. Riiiiight.; 4/6/11, 11:51 PM
Revenant said...: The Amazon transaction is verifiable mainly because they can match the payment to the person. But, for obvious reasons, you can't do that with votes.

That's not obvious at all. Or, rather, it is not obvious that "the government cannot match the voter to the vote" implies "the voters cannot match THEMSELVES to a vote".

Use a trapdoor function on their voter ID and password. Store the result with the vote. Now the *voter* can check on how his vote was recorded any time he wants, but the government has no way of figuring out who each vote belongs to. Tally the votes Tuesday night, and on Wednesday let people log in to check on how their vote is registered. Make a note of the complaints and adjust accordingly -- there's your "recount". That's just one possible solution to the problem.

Incidentally, "I'm an expert and I say it can't work" doesn't really carry any weight coming from an anonymous user. Show your work. :); 4/7/11, 12:56 AM
rhhardin said...: Use a trapdoor function on their voter ID and password. Store the result with the vote. Now the *voter* can check on how his vote was recorded any time he wants, but the government has no way of figuring out who each vote belongs to. Tally the votes Tuesday night, and on Wednesday let people log in to check on how their vote is registered. Make a note of the complaints and adjust accordingly -- there's your "recount". That's just one possible solution to the problem.

Incidentally, "I'm an expert and I say it can't work" doesn't really carry any weight coming from an anonymous user. Show your work. :)

Ken Thompson's Turing Lecture on why that doesn't work pdf.

The machine does whatever somebody sufficiently motivated wants it to do, not what you've coded it to do.

In particular, inspecting the code won't work.; 4/7/11, 4:43 AM
Revenant said...: rh,

As I noted earlier, the question isn't "would this be perfectly secure", but "would this be more secure than what we do now".

The alternative to using machines is using humans. Every human is controlled by, metaphorically speaking, code you didn't write and can't even look at. The difference is that we can either have one set of code that everyone can inspect (a computer) or hundreds/thousands of sets of code we can't (poll workers, et al). Trusting humans is preferable to trusting computers if and ONLY if the job is too complex for a computer to handle. Computers are easier to understand, easier to predict the behavior of, and far easier to verify the trustworthiness of.; 4/7/11, 1:12 PM
rhhardin said...: Computers are easier to understand, easier to predict the behavior of, and far easier to verify the trustworthiness of.

That's what I'm saying is not true, as Thompson showed.

All that's needed is sufficient motivation to rig the computer.

Political control of lots of money is huge motivation.

Hence computer rigging will happen.

You are not saved by code inspection, or even by writing the code yourself.

Nor are you saved by reading the code of the compiler, or its assembler output.

It's a deep flaw.; 4/7/11, 6:01 PM