So begins Meg Wolitzer's NYT article on the (perceived) decline of the (female) sex drive. She notes that people these days have a prurient interest in famous women not having sex:
Think of Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor or the former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. I can picture either woman in a big, beautiful bed with great sheets, the duvet scattered with legal briefs or policy papers. The bedside lamp burns a peachy, erotic glow all night as she works.So... Wolitzer just identified the prurient interest... and wrote some porn for it!
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84 comments:
I have no idea why we have to think about famous people's sex lives,. . .BUT
I have noticed and been digusted by the outloud proclaimations by a number of women that they don't want to have sex with their husband. At one office where I used to work, it was rampant. When one woman piped up that she really looked forward to sex with her husband, other women said that they would happily let her take over their "duties" (said with an air of disgust) as well. At another time, at an after work party, another women announced, with her husband in hearing distance, that she had taken care of her "duty" last night, so hopefully she wouldn't have to do it again for a while.
How on earth can a marriage be sustained when women are so blithely critical of something that is obviously important to their husbands and marriages? Women who have no respect for their husbands are some of my least favorite kinds of people.
- Lyssa
(please excuse my typos- I don't have one of those trashcan things)
I tried to read Wolitzer's novel W., which is partially set in Finland. By the end of the second page it became violently clear that she hated men, and wanted nothing to do with them. I stopped reading.
I can't imagine talking about the marital bed with people at a party.
Maybe it's because I'm midwestern. Link.
Was there a picture of the woman who was quoted? I suspect the husband would have been quite relieved to have had someone else to fuck.
If a woman's eggs to talk most men wouldn't qualify as "donors."
So, how did we get to the married state?
For starters, women weren't given choices. It was up to the father's to "arrange things." (In a day when small pox marred many faces, if you lived that long.)
Then? Oh, women didn't just put on a pair of pants! They couldn't leave their houses to work! (That's only very recent!)
Then, along this "time line" ... women went to work, especially if they were single. While women who worked were always suspected of "sleeping with the boss."
At a time when virginity was sold as something you needed to keep until your wedding night.
Too bad the "weddings" got postponed, once the 14 year olds screamed back at their dads that they weren't about to wed.
Perhaps, teenagers are so unpleasant to deal with ... that it was the dads who gave up, first?
As to a New York City apartment, are they large enough for you to invite in company? Or to roommates get upset. Open the refrigerator. And, start screaming that someone ate the yogurt?
I could care less.
(the other kev)
Don't want to see this thread turn into dump-on-women fest a la Dr. Helen, but I would bet that most of those women mentioned are probably the same ones who get the vapors when a married man does go outside the marriage for sex.
Rule 34 strikes again.
The bedside lamp burns a peachy, erotic glow...
Well, that too is coming to an end soon.
The desire to be left alone can lead to solitude, which in turn leads to great work ideas and, ultimately, freedom.
Maybe that's what the guy with the sign was driving at?
Wasn't it Babylon 5 where they had the line, "Hate us? You will become us!"?
Go back about 50 years and the sociologists were telling everybody that Wolitzer's piece was the song of all the high-priced corporate execs. Getting married was something you did to fit in. Once all the courtship and romance and impregnation was over, the men did what was really sexy to them - money and power (these were the guys The Blonde encountered as patients who didn't believe the company could function without them).
And now the feminazis are in the same place, it would seem.
WV "wallarti" Latin for stuff white people like on the wall.
“So, Meg,” he said. “Are you ready to go to third?” After a beat, I said to him, “No.”
He tied the belt of his robe tighter and said, “But it’s what we agreed.” Still I said no, sorry, I wasn’t ready after all.
That young man dodged a huge bullet.
Imagine if Meg had gone to third base with him and they ended up married. Poor sod. Married to a loser c*ck-teaser. Shackled for the rest of his life, having to put up with .... her.
By the way ... Meg wonders about the attraction of porn.
Why would she wonder, when she looks in a mirror, daily at least?
If she's looking for a full-flavor woman to have sex with her husband, it's going to be a futile search unless she's going to look in the hills of Appalachia or some other backwards location. Times-reading upscale Manhattan residents are trend leaders in more ways that one. You can be sure that the Hideous Pedophilic Bald Eagle is completely universal :(
Peter
I see an economic recovery for the "rub and tug" industry.
Why do people love to pretend they're not mammals?
The reason older women lose interest in sex is because their hormone levels drop. While it drops for guys as they get older, it'll often stay at levels that'll keep 'em randy until they're put in the pine box.
Do readers of the NYT think that sexual desire is a matter of free will and not hormones in our bodies?
Mother Nature cruelly uses us and our lusts to keep humanity going, and when we're done with making babies, our sex lives are collateral damage in the survival of the fittest.
It sucks to get old. It's just that the alternative is worse.
Such is the inevitable result of men such as their husbands allowing themselves to be neutered. And marrying women of little femininity. Among other things.
I do find it a bit sad and depressing. But, then, I wonder what the women are putting into the relationship, when they aren't putting in this essential piece.
Do the husbands ever have to go places they don't want to for their wives? Talk about feelings? About how the day went? Put down the toilet seat? Etc.
In marriage, both sides give up something - hopefully happily. And one thing that I have learned about a lot of women, is that many do not seem to understand that they are often the more demanding one.
"While it drops for guys as they get older, it'll often stay at levels that'll keep 'em randy until they're put in the pine box."
1. Then why are there all those ads for erection drugs?
2. The women probably need more subtle things from the men to keep them going, and the men are not facing up to that. It's easier to imagine women just have a lower sex drive. It's a different sex drive people. You need to be a better driver.
"And one thing that I have learned about a lot of women, is that many do not seem to understand that they are often the more demanding one."
Oh, they understand it. They just also realize that demanding it isn't going to get it. And neither are you.
Ann said, "you (men) need to be a better driver."
Why?
There are so many garages.
Then why are there all those ads for erection drugs?
These drugs are not aphrodisiacs, they do not enhance a man's desire for sex (even though some guys think otherwise). They are for men who have physical problems that prevent them from getting erect, such as diabetes or troubles involving Little Man 'Tate.
Peter
And middle-aged women wonder why their husbands run off to find younger women to have sex with.
"It's a different sex drive people. You need to be a better driver."
Is that why so many of these aging women have left their husbands who they had families with to go off and be gay in their old age?
@Prof Althouse,
What Ironrails said.
Plus, that's why ED drugs sell like hotcakes --- it is so goddamn maddening to have the desire but lack the ability that guys would pay almost anything to be able to put little willie back to work again.
And, you, Prof Althouse, you 60's creamy center love chick, you thought "Better living through Chemistry" only applied to psychedelic recreational drugs!
It's articles like this that make me thank the Lord that I'm gay.
Condi? Man, I'd line up for that. She could whisper sweet policy in my ear while I told her that she's too good for George Bush.
Sonia? Nice lady, I'm sure. Could we just have a cup of coffee some afternoon?
As to the husband, if he has any sense he's lining up his own prospects.
Althouse, that's not porn.
It would only be porn if it appealed to MEN's prurient interest.
"Is that why so many of these aging women have left their husbands who they had families with to go off and be gay in their old age?"
No, they finally took pity on the guys who have stuck by them all these years and gave them their freedom. THEY WANT TO BE FREE.
"Do readers of the NYT think that sexual desire is a matter of free will and not hormones in our bodies? "
Hello- the NYT readers even think gender is a matter or choice and not nature.
Meg's writing! Man, it sucks.
So these women who spurn their marriage partners, perhaps they pine to be a Bronte sister?
In seriousness, this version of feminism promulgates a liberation from any touch of a man it seems. Misandry in full flower?
I would bet that most of those women mentioned are probably the same ones who get the vapors when a married man does go outside the marriage for sex.
So you think most of those women are all women?
I've never heard one of my friends say anything like this woman who "blithely announced."
So why would a woman say that? Is she a hateful, emasculating wife? Does her husband go beta in the bedroom? Who knows.
What was with the third base story? I could have done without that.
I'm only dump on women a little here, but it is because the so-called modern "feminist" have made too many women believe their "feelings" are the most important thing evah.
Show respect for your husband? Understand his nature and needs in a relationship?
Heaven's! How uncaring must I be to bring that up!
I'm not talking about dysfunctional relationships, I'm talking about a woman married to a good man, someone she claims she loves, then gets this "I'm not in the mood for sex, so GO AWAY, since my feelings are the most important thing in this relationship" attitude.
A man who loves his wife wants to express that love through sexual intimacy; and any woman who refuses to recognize that will eventually find herself in divorce court.
And ladies, even if you "feel" you're not in the mood at that time, most times once engaged you'll find there ARE fireworks to be had!
These women need to understand that Sex and the City is not a documentary. It's neither cute nor provocative to talk about your husband like he's a dog--that you would pay somebody to help him relieve his basest urges so he doesn't have to do so in the house.
Articles like these explain why the NYT's circulation is dropping faster than an aging woman's libido.
Here's a joke.
A man goes to a priest, a rabbi, and a minister, asking each the question: "is sex work for the wife, or is it fun?"
The priest tells the man "it's work."
And, the Minister agrees.
Then the rabbi shakes his head, and says, "no." "If it was work my wife would have the maid to it."
And, then, there's always Tolstoy. He famously said "all happy marriages are alike. It's the dysfunctional ones that always tell a different story."
I had a wonderful math teacher, who found my mistakes so easily, I said to her "she ought to write a book."
Alas, she said, while there's only one right answer, all the mistakes she has seen are stunningly different ... one to the other. From her I learned that she recognized my mistakes when my numbers were off. Where I either made a number from the "givens" that was either much too high or too low.
People who are good at math ... Like people who are good at relationships ... are easily able to tell the correct answer ... from all those that aren't.
And, here? Everyone's sex stories are different. Can't fool me by comparing one wife's shout out ... to another one who is quite content with her marriage.
When I was young my mother told me to discount a man's good looks. She pointed out, instead, GOOD SKIN. When a woman was happy with her mate she didn't suffer from acne.
She taught me early that good looks have nothing to do with it.
I remember ages ago I happened to be watching Oprah (it doens't happen often), and there was a woman on who had a controversial take on her relationship, and was getting booed for it. Namely, she put her husband before her kids. Her husband was the love of her life, so she didnt' let the kids get in the way of that relationship. And isn't that the way it should be? Not to say that kids don't matter. Of course they do. But too many women, once they have kids seal up their legs and devote all their life to raising the kids, and the relationship becomes akin to a room mate situation with occasional sex.
I also happen to be watching the movie Rob Roy on cable the other day (good movie, I'd recommend, with one of the seediest foulest villains. played by Tim Roth, I've ever seen on screen). And that is, to me an example of a good relationship. You could tell that they, Rob and his wife, were still in lust with one another despite having kids. You could tell that Rob would tell his boys "Now boys, go out and play for a while" and that he and the missus would have passionate sex. She would never withhold sex from Rob, and you could tell that he would not take her for granted. And the kids new it too.Miss McGregor knew what her duties were to please her man, and didn't view them as duties. The kids knew that they were important to both Rob and his wife, but also knew that they were, as a couple, the glue that kept the family together, and that the kids were not more important than the love of husband and wife.
Namely, she put her husband before her kids. Her husband was the love of her life, so she didnt' let the kids get in the way of that relationship. And isn't that the way it should be?
Yes it is.
One day your children will be grown and gone, creating families of their own with strangers and you will be peripheral to their lives. This is the way it is meant to be.
You and your spouse will be (hopefully) still and forever a unit that supports and cares for each other in a way that no one else in the world will ever do or ever can.
Carol,
Of course sex isn't work. Otherwise it would be prohibited, not encouraged, on Shabbat.
I'm happily married. My brother, on the other hand, is married to an emasculating shrew.
I love my wife immensely, but if she treated me as my sister-in-law treats my brother, we wouldn't be married.
These women expect their husbands to maintain their level of commitment to the marriage when they won't do the same.
No woman is worth that. If she's medically unable to have sex, that's one thing. If she just refuses, then the man should cheat. She'd have no legit right to complain.
Would a woman hesitate to cheat on a man who refused to have sex with her?
I was talking with a Dr the other day and he explained how being on the pill for 5 yrs can have a permanent effect on many women's libido. With the pervasiveness of the long term use of this drug it's no surprise that there are side effects like this.
Ann Althouse --
"You need to be a better driver."
Car's gotta have gas.
1. Then why are there all those ads for erection drugs?
For the same reason there are ads for eyeglasses.
I was contentedly celebrating the Time's paywall. If I cared, I'd subscribe.
VW: cullazes. If the Times had, they wouldn't be dying.
Not sure why we are surprised. The men and women are reading the New York Times. Have you seen the ads? Metro-sexuals .... heavy on the metro.
If this story was in a gun magazine, then America would have something to worry about. Lucky for us Bitter Clingers, we like sex, ALOT. No worries for us.
What if the women are lying? What if they can't stand themselves in the mirror, much less with their husbands?
Women lead two lives; one with their husbands, and another with other women. And the twain seldom meets.
If she just refuses, then the man should cheat. She'd have no legit right to complain.
If he does, he should do so openly. Explain that since she won't have sex with him, he'll be seeking it elsewhere.
It might work as a wake-up call.
And the two leave their mother and father, cleave to one another, and the two shall become one flesh, yada yada. God's idea of marriage is that the couple is almost a biological unit, certainly a spiritual one, and the level of disgust at the other's emotional/physical needs we see in this story is so sad. Roommates, or worse, people who have only enough energy to disguise the more overt contempt.
Being a woman must be difficult. I have no idea. But I know that marriage can work, over time, with sacrifice, with determination. That blithe woman has done only the time. No sacrifice. She thinks she has already sacrificed too much. Selfish.
I guess if you live in New York, you think the entire world revolves around you. In her world, it's all about her and her needs. Hubby doesn't come into that realm unless she wants him to.
In other people's marriages, it's not 'me' but 'we'. We are attuned to each other. No one person's needs trump another. We understand that intimacy in a marriage is important and ranges from holding hands to sex.
What this woman does not understand that marriage means it's not all about her. It's about a partnership and sometimes that means taking a deep-down mental scan on why you feel that your wants and needs are perpetually more important than your spouse's. This woman will never do that though. She's too self-absorbed.
@Althouse: 2. The women probably need more subtle things from the men to keep them going, and the men are not facing up to that. It's easier to imagine women just have a lower sex drive. It's a different sex drive people. You need to be a better driver.
subtle things == credit cards
'I would pay someone to have sex with my husband.'
Don't worry lady. I'm sure he's already taken care of that himself.
Those Anglicans: the 1930 Lambeth Conference separated sex the procreation from sex the recreation. In an ideal marriage sex is both, and a manifestation of the love the partners share for each other. Now it's surprising that the divorce rate is only about 50%. Yes, men and women have different "drivers", but there should be commonality of purpose. Isn't love supposed to be part of marriage? Isn't the marriage act a renewing of vows of love? That bonding is both psychologically and physically important. What a shame. Shame for everybody involved.
A study a few years ago found that in a wide range of cultures, both men and women viewed extra-marital sex by the woman as more of a serious problem than if by the man. The reason given that powerful women tend to not have sexual encounters like powerful men is that women generally prefer to have sex with somebody they actually love. Men are much more willing to view sex as 'one more woman to bang', and not take infidelities as seriously. However, the plan is that these two very different entities find a way to work together, to create something together which is greater than the parts alone.
I have never and will never cheat on my wife regardless of her affection quotient. Honor is a compact we make with ourselves to stand by our commitments. However, should I discover that she has cheated on me there will be an immediate and damn-the-consequences divorce.
Hmmm. Let’s see.
First, seems to me I’ve been hearing about wives not having sex with their husbands all my adult life – which, surprisingly to me, goes back half a century – and reading about it (and seeing movies about it) from a long time even before that.
Second, any man who lets himself get involved in that sort of a relationship was either stupid in the first place or deserves it because of his own lack of character in putting up with such a creature.
It’s women like these who bawl and mewl and puke the loudest when their husbands find other women --usually better-looking and younger and more charming -- who are eager to let them into their beds and their lives.
69 Months And BTW Nice Hole You Got There
It is about nuclear reactors. I swear. Or maybe it is a reflection of something missing in my life. What could it be?
WV: rates - I'll tell you how she rates in the affection department.....
Sounds like the men in their life do not know how to keep them turned on...tell them to read Alicia Dunams and David Shade....the choice is theirs.
"There's magic in ideas, but there's reality in our actions. There's power in our thoughts and actions in our deeds, and the only things between our dreams and unreaized realities is ourselves."- Alicia Dunams
Uh...
it's NYC. One of those crazy disfunctional places kept that way by people who *seek out the disfunction.*
Any ammo here for the war-of-the-sexes or "Leykis crowd" is brought with, rather than to, the reader.
Boy they must have a lot of pages to fill up in the NYT to be printing this kind of slop.
Alternate explanation, Meg just came out with a novel and this anecdote is entirely made up as a way to promote her 'Lysistrata in New Jersey' fiction.
If a puff piece seems absurd, good chance it's really just promoting some even crappier book, film, or TV series.
Higamous, hogamous. If William James were still around, he might observe the Wolitzer article, Girls Gone Wild, the Viagra craze, and a general trend toward relationships between youngish women and oldish men, and write a new poem about the different arcs between men and women in the desire for sex, plotted against time and maturity.
Not that I know anything about this! I am an alien who landed on this planet to observe humanity scientifically.
"I would pay someone to have sex with my husband"
Unfortunately, she would have to ask her husband for the money.....
"If a puff piece seems absurd, good chance it's really just promoting some even crappier book, film, or TV series."
Amy Chua's ears must be ringing about now.
But back on topic: so, the woman wants to pay another woman to have sex with her husband. Wonder if it's with money she earned, or he did?
***Unfortunately, she would have to ask her husband for the money.....***
FTW.
Women who read trashy NASCAR romance instead of attending gatherings at apartments in New York large enough to host gatherings *like* to have sex with their husbands.
It's this simple. There's a cohort of women, maybe twenty percent, who achieve satisfaction when men behave as they are inclined to. Men who have had a smattering of lovers have likely had the experience of satisfying at least one of them and assume the problem with other women is with them. Those who haven't haven't had much experience don't have a clue anyway.
The other women, for the most part, don't have a clue either how to achieve satisfaction with a man themselves and are not even equipped to provide helpful suggestions. And more than nine out of ten men have no idea how to bridge that gap.
For those few men who do know how, with each new lover, they tap into a wellspring of pent-up longing. But the woman seldom learns enough to communicate what it takes to other lovers.
And there you have the human condition.
Ann,
The women probably need more subtle things from the men to keep them going, and the men are not facing up to that. It's easier to imagine women just have a lower sex drive. It's a different sex drive people. You need to be a better driver.
Stop it. Pimps are the best drivers in the world and your kind wants to destroy them all for it.
Lyssalovelyredhead wrote:
How on earth can a marriage be sustained when women are so blithely critical of something that is obviously important to their husbands and marriages?
I don't know, and it makes growing older extremely frightening to me. Will I lose my sex drive, like these women, who are hardly the exceptions? I'm not a promiscuous woman, but by gum, I am a healthy, red-blooded one.
wv: powersus (the power of us!)
Cheers,
Victoria
One stated "I have never and will never cheat on my wife regardless of her affection quotient. Honor is a compact we make with ourselves to stand by our commitments."
I believe the same but note that a wife who is not intimately close to her husband is violating that compact to "love and cherish" in the way it was understood on the marriage day. My wife has not wanted to kiss me for over 30 years, and regardless of regular sex by her and of faithfulness by me I cannot believe she cherishes me. When asked once if I believed my wife loved me I had to say not all that much.
You can be unfaithful to your marriage vows without ever being intimate with someone outside of the marriage. The vows I took required positive action.
My ex-wife had the same attitude. Hilariously, to me, she remarried and I did not.
Victoria:
I don't know, and it makes growing older extremely frightening to me. Will I lose my sex drive, like these women, who are hardly the exceptions? I'm not a promiscuous woman, but by gum, I am a healthy, red-blooded one.
My suspicion is that as couples grow older, things change for both partners. If they work to harmonize as they grow older, it won't be an insurmountable problem. My 80 year old grandfather had a bad heart and prostate cancer. The solution was an orchiectomy. My grandmother told my mom that, well, sex hadn't really been that great lately anyhow. That qualifies as too much information.
...it makes growing older extremely frightening to me.
The view from this side of 50 is that growing older does suck -- but it's amazing how you adjust to things, and adapt. Humans are very adaptable.
The key, I think, is to spend your time looking forward to the future with anticipation for what might happen, not looking back and regretting how little you can do now vs. then.
How on earth can a marriage be sustained when women are so blithely critical of something that is obviously important to their husbands and marriages?
This is a major factor that's ending my marriage. Thing is that it goes beyond just sexual intimacy, but into emotional intimacy and that's much more painful.
"Sounds like the men in their life do not know how to keep them turned on"
LOL. I've been hearing it's the man's fault all my life. It was the key *secret* element in novels - He can't satisfy her! - until gayness or incest took its place. A woman must go halfway by learning how to do it.
Oh, and I used to wonder why men still wanted it if they couldn't get it up. But I finally realized it's like anything else you love that you've done all your life. You want to keep doing it, or you feel like you're dead somehow.
Anyway, these women should be deeply ashamed for not honoring their husbands by at least keeping their mouths shut, if for not trying to be a good partner. But what do you expect in a secular, nihilistic society that no longer knows how to explain these things.
This is a major factor that's ending my marriage. Thing is that it goes beyond just sexual intimacy, but into emotional intimacy and that's much more painful.
If more women only understood that it's not about the sex, but the affection and attention that comes with it.
Sexless marriages tend to be loveless as well.
I've got over 45 years into a sexless, now, marriage. The love is still there. The sex vanished with the insertion of children into the marriage and I reconciled becoming second string to my own children. Now, I'm second string to grandchildren. It will probably get worse, but she is the one I've chosen to care for and take care of. It isn't as bad as it sounds.
Seems like the husband is already paying.
I'd say the men in these marriages have been sold, almost literally, a pig in a poke.
This is men's fault, men's power, men's responsibility. If you put up with it, you deserve it. Go read roissy for a year or two and then grow the cajones to DTB. Remember: you're modeling for your children how marriage should be. If you have boys, you have a responsibility to not sabotage them, not just to your own happiness. If you have girls, you have a responsibility to not be a shrew-enabler.
Women who find abortion easy, who dislike sex, and who dislike men will lose the evolutionary contest to women who who love men, sex, and children.
Maybe it's crazy to make yourself vulverable and go off alone with a man, get naked, risk STDs, endure 9months of illness, get injured about as bad as if you got hit by a car, and then not get a decent night's sleep for four years, but natural selection prefers "love crazy" to "risk averse".
Walt should become a priest.
"Sounds like the men in their life do not know how to keep them turned on"
Sex is a two-way street.
So, 70% of divorces are filed by the woman, and there is good reason to suspect a good number of men are driven to filing by their wives. While men are the usual suspects in sexual child abuse, just plain child abuse women are the abuser in something like 83% of the cases. Women are far more likely to have a second husband or boy friend who violates the daughter than a man is to have a second wife or girlfriend who violates a child. There was a recent article about how there is a great deal more fillicide than we like to acknowledge, usually by the mother.
To be sure, in the past, women have had it rough. It was rough for everybody. But, we have made life for women without men much cozier than it used to be. The largest voting bloc for Obama was Blacks. The next largest were single women and single mothers. They can get by without men. The reason women used to come with a dowry was that society was bribing a man to take on the woman, and keep her.
The story is that there are loads of liberal men who are liberal so they can get laid. Research shows that men are more likely to vote for what is good for the country before what is good for themselves. Women are more likely to vote for themselves first, and then the good of the country.
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