The blogger assumes the police put the handcuffs on the doorknobs, but that wasn't the perception Meade had Wednesday night:
Protesters are locking the Capitol doors shut from the inside using metal handcuffs, Meade reports from the scene.Of course, it's terrible if the police did it too. Indeed, there needs to be a serious investigation into the police behavior throughout the protest. Meade and I have seen quite a bit of evidence that the police were, if not colluding with the protesters and facilitating their activities, turning a blind eye to all sorts of things that they would not have permitted in the normal course of performing their duties. Why did they retreat on Wednesday and allow the building to be retaken? I assume there are some good reasons for letting a mob take over a public building, after hours, and to block the state legislature the following morning. But how dare the police make such an abject public demonstration of their ineffectuality?
He told me that just now, by phone. He got out, and is warning others not to go in. Obviously, it's a terrible fire hazard to make it so people cannot get out of the building easily. Presumably, protesters think it's a good idea to keep the police out, but it is dangerously stupid.
ADDED: Is anyone using the Wisconsin Open Records law to get access to the communications between the police and the protesters?
UPDATE: Meade has been trying to get an authoritative interview from the police. He was over at the Capitol on March 11th and got as far as a police escort into the office of Wisconsin Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs. Tubbs was there, but talking on the phone. He shunted Meade to a secretary, to take Meade's name and number. A phone call was promised. We're still waiting for the phone call.
UPDATE 2: Tubbs called Meade back at 2:15 pm on Saturday to say that the matter is under investigation. He said he'd have more on Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning.
Posts
173 comments:
The blogger assumes the police put the handcuffs on the doorknobs, but that wasn't the perception Meade had Wednesday night:
Protesters are locking the Capitol doors shut from the inside using metal handcuffs, Meade reports from the scene.
Where can civilians get handcuffs in Madison? Is there a BSDM store?
"The blogger assumes . . . "
So much easier than seeking out actual facts.
Ann wants her Kent State and the police are just too incompetent to give it to her!
You know the trooper in Meade's last video was so passive aggressive he could have been French Canadian..
former law student said...
Where can civilians get handcuffs in Madison?
Just a guess, but it fits Meade's observations from the scene: from sympathetic cops.
Related guess: the protester who locked the door wasn't strictly a civilian, but was an off-duty cop.
Third guess: when I worked as a security guard, the same store that sold me my uniforms also carried nightsticks and handcuffs. I could buy them as a guard, didn't have to be a police officer. Perhaps that's true in Wisconsin today.
These are all guesses, but none is the least bit improbable. So the idea that only on-duty police could've handcuffed these doors is wrong.
They swiped Meade's photo and used it without attribution and without linking back to the Flickr page, pursuant to the Creative Commons license.
What part of "that's stupid" haven't you two understood yet? As far as I know, you two are the only people who even know what a Creative Commons license is, or cares about it. Nobody's stealing anything - "swiping" photos maybe, but that's hardly taking anything. No one's being harmed here.
If you've got something to say, say it, but quit with this nit-picky BS, because that's all it is, and it doesn't make you look credible to keep running to it whenever you've got some other real issue with someone.
Stick to the real issues.
Cops not actively beating hippies with nightsticks = colluding with them in wingnut world.
Those death threats sent to the Wisconsin senators and Gov. Walker are also powerful and visceral.
KOS had better accept its culpability in those.
Are you sure your side hasn't compared it to that already?
They've demeaned everything else by comparing it to:
Selma
Birmingham
South Africa
Egypt
Libya
So you want to add Kent State....
*shocker*.
Governor Walker has just signed the bill. Public employees have lost their collective bargaining rights.
I also wonder what human ingenuity will come into play, when the public is forced to deal with "slow downs" and strikes.
Gee, once "needle trades" were in America. Some states had strong unions. When it began to fade, and other states began producing garments, the unions came up with a song: LOOK FOR THE UNION LABEL
Did you know a lot of people who saw the union label put the garment back o the rack?
From the shiftless NYC plow drivers to the WI doctors making a mockery of their licenses to the screaming teachers who abandoned their jobs, Lefties in all professions have lately been exposed for what they really are. Hideously selfish and self-absorbed runts, who should be scrupulously avoided when at all possible.
Somewhere (here?) I read that the police unlocked the cuffs.
So, it seems possible that they put them on the door.
I steal photos all the time. Meade has yelled at me about it and I promised to give credit or whatever they way they want.
But on the internets most people just copy and use a striking photo.
Or a photo of strikers. So to speak.
I do think that photo thing is only something lawyers worry about.
Where can civilians get handcuffs in Madison? Is there a BSDM store?
I live 2,000 miles away and Google told me where.
Is anyone using the Wisconsin Open Records law to get access to the communications between the police and the protesters?
I don't know but there is video of at least one of them on a bull horn giving a speech to the demonstrators on the night when their union decided to join them.
The real problem is if the Republicans wanted to gather evidence as to why they felt they could only give 2 hours notice-because of the crowd.
Who are they going to use as witnesses to that effect?
The police?
Letting them in may have been better than blocking them from getting in, at least in a narrow sense. Would there have been violence had the Police kept them out?
The policy since the protests started seems to have been one of allowing steam to get out, rather than blocking entry.
You're there. Perhaps my reading is all wrong.
Cops not actively beating hippies with nightsticks = colluding with them in wingnut world.
Garage;
Is it really that big of a logical stretch to suspect that other unionized public employees (i.e. police, firemen) might be sympathetic and act accordingly. You have seen the news from Ohio (where they're going after all public employees)
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop (i.e. limitations on collective bargaining for fire and police in Wisconsin.)
ya know althouse--you are an officer of the court--surely you can apply your legal skills and figure this shit out
and you can file lawsuits and do the circle jerk that lawyers do
balls in your court sweetie pie
I'm actually watching Obama right now.
He's boring the paper maiche outta me.
Could you imagine being in one of his classes when he was a prof?
Frickin' snore fest. I swear this is his greatest weapon.
*****
A guy next to me paying more attention-
" He just Clintoned them!"
Me:Who?
Dude:"He just Clintoned Congress-both parties-he essentially said-can you believe these guys they can't do their job."
So that guy is paying attention...
I was all like uuuh?
btw-Obama did not mention Libya once that' some damn feat.
Do handcuffs have a common key or are they individually keyed?
I've seen police interchange handcuffs between each other before.
jsonline, 3/14:
Noted Wisconsin blogger/UW professor cries foul after being pulled over and strip-searched for the third time in a 24-hour period.
Where can civilians get handcuffs in Madison? Is there a BSDM store?
Wisconsin doesn't have access to the intarwebs?
What is the visceral effect supposed to be? The problem with the handcuffs is locking people in, not locking people out.
Actually, they HAVE swiped the photo. They downloaded it from Anne's Flicker account, and uploaded it elsewhere for their use, without attribution. Had they just embedded it on their site straight from the Flicker page , that would be one thing, but when you click on the picture at KOS, it takes you to a Photobucket account where it reads basically ".jpg by Ditto" etc.
Theft, imho, and DailyKOS is a money-making venture. If not illegal, it is sure unethical as hell.
Just my humble opinion.
Before press questions.
I think the press tricked him into saying Libya when it was question time.
He also used the word "massacre" and you could tell he wanted a do-over about two seconds after he said it.
Oh wait!
It gets better he just said-
"My consistent message to the leaders in the Middle East..."
Consistent?
Really?
Former althouse student '96 - loved your class - love your blog - except recently! I have never commented on a blog before but am compelled!
I have been slightly irked by some of Meade's "coverage" of the protests - every newspaper I have read said that the capitol personnel put those handcuffs up (and then later removed) - yet Meade reported it was the protestors who were unsafely locking themselves inside the capitol. (Which of the protestors was carrying around handcuffs? #notplausible) Recently he stated it "seems" like a dem legislator/aide let in the protesters to the inner room the other night -- and now I am seeing that being written elsewhere - citing Meade! Who in the hell knows who opened that window or if it was just unlocked or what?
"Victimology"? Balderdash I say! The unions were gutted like fish without public vetting. The way this was done was not good governance. If there was ever a reasonable time to pick up a sign, it's now. There has been nonviolent resistance. Power to the people. (I'm predicting 200,000 tomorrow)
The handcuff picture is striking. One of the more inexplicable incidents from that night.
Calypso wrote
The handcuffed doors were the exterior doors leading to King St. A plainclothes cop removed them. (All according to Journal Sentinel)
Here's the link.
That doesn't explain how they go there. That would be interesting to find out.
I must add that the whole thread over there is bizarre. They're celebrating the Firefighters union for withdrawing money from a bank whose directors donated to Walker's campaign.
Do they know who loses in a bank run?
The unions were gutted like fish without public vetting.
Some would say the taxpayers were being gradually gutted first, without real representation.
@Doris -- I've done a few searches and the only articles I can find, outside of the Houdini hits, quote from that Journal-Sentinel article.
.
I didn't check to see if this was mentioned -
These have to be 'protester owned cuffs'; pls note, they aren't polished or really even clean looking ...
.
The unions were gutted like fish without public vetting.
Without public vetting?
Have you been awake for the past several weeks?
And apparently, you slept in Althouse's classes too.
Handcuffs are widely available even, as mentioned previously, in Madison, WI. So are the keys. They are also available on the Internet as are lock picks, bump keys, and other things that have an obvious criminal use. To avoid problems, it's probably best to not possess any of these things in a situation where there is no obvious lawful purpose for possessing them.
Many handcuffs use common keys so it's no surprise that a police officer may have a key that would unlock handcuffs that were applied by a "civilian." It would seem likely that the typical police officer would have one or more keys that would work with all the different handcuffs that would likely be encountered.
pbAndj said...Somewhere (here?) I read that the police unlocked the cuffs. So, it seems possible that they put them on the door.
Handcuffs are keyed alike and use a simple key. The sale of handcuffs is not restricted-you can buy them over the net, in gun stores, etc. The use of handcuffs to secure double doors has been shown in movies, so that's probably where people got the idea.
Maybe there's a ex-LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) who reads this blog who could offer and opinion as to what kind of handcuffs those were and who would use them? They didn't appear to be "standard issue" to me.
"ya know althouse--you are an officer of the court--surely you can apply your legal skills and figure this shit out"
I am a retired member of the NY Bar. I have never been a member of the Wisconsin Bar. I have not practiced law since 1984. I teach and write *about* law, and I value my place and perspective.
"Maybe there's a ex-LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) who reads this blog who could offer and opinion as to what kind of handcuffs those were and who would use them? They didn't appear to be "standard issue" to me."
Yeah. Meade said those aren't police handcuffs. Not sure how he knew or if he was right. I thought police used those plastic things these days.
The solution is simple.... send a DCMA Takedown Notice to PhotoBucket at abuse@photobucket.com.
All the details are here: http://photobucket.com/copyright
That is...unless you just want to whinge about the theft of your photo.
every newspaper I have read said that the capitol personnel put those handcuffs up
(Which of the protestors was carrying around handcuffs? #notplausible)
Capitol personnel using handcuffs to lock doors they have keys to is plausible to you?
"Victimology"? Balderdash I say! The unions were gutted like fish without public vetting. The way this was done was not good governance.
That's a good thing....
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop (i.e. limitations on collective bargaining for fire and police in Wisconsin.)
I wouldn't trust these slimy ratfuckers for the time of day, cops and firefighters knew all along they were next. It's sort of odd though of the hundreds and hundreds of cops and firefighters protesting and sleeping the Capitol, that New Meadia missed them all.
My kids used to have a pair of metal handcuffs. We bought them from a street vendor in San Francisco a few years ago. LOL
The unions were gutted like fish
You say that like it's a Bad Thing™
That was one smelly fish.
It's sort of odd though of the hundreds and hundreds of cops and firefighters protesting and sleeping the Capitol, that New Meadia missed them all.
Huh? I remember plenty of photos of cops, firefighters and street salters.
They look more or less like normal police handcuffs, but anyone can buy them over the counter. Officers (I am ex-LEO) usually etch their badge number somewhere on the frame so that after a multiple-handcuffing incident, everyone gets their own cuffs back.
And one key, which is also available over the counter, opens all handcuffs (except for a few specialty models).
The plastic cuffs just come out for mass arrest incidents.
doris wrote: The way this was done was not good governance.
Somehow I don't imagine you're talking about the refusal of the Democrat minority to debate and vote on the measures within the legislative process.
doris said...
(Which of the protestors was carrying around handcuffs? #notplausible)
doris, don't be gullible. Read the thread. "protestors was carrying around handcuffs" is entirely plausible. That doesn't make it true; but "It's not plausible" is the weakest possible argument here.
When a 5% contribution to a retirement plan is equivalent to being "gutted", you know you're dealing with someone who lives in a fantasy land of persecution and oppression. Stupid child.
I'm predicting 200,000 tomorrow)
Then the U of W kids will have Spring Break and it will all wind down.
Michael Moore was waving around handcuffs on Rachel Maddow the other day, saying the people were bringing them to the bankers.
Maybe he inspired some Badgers.
garage wrote: I wouldn't trust these slimy ratfuckers for the time of day, cops and firefighters knew all along they were next.
You need to go tell the Kos commenters. They think they've discovered a police state.
Ann,
I've read of reports that the state government pension authority in Madison, WI is going to issue a new report shortly that calls for massive increases in pension fund contributions by both 'employers' (i.e. state government and quasi-agencies) emplyees. Supposedly on the scale of two or three orders of magnitude. The problem is due to under-funding of pensions. Teh under-funding is caused by unrealistic estimates of pension income quantums and rates of income growth.
I suspect Walker will hav eto ask the state legislature to increase the eligibility period for pensions. Seventy is the sixty-five. Retire at seventy.
So I guess you and Meade the Press will have new opportunities to watch your local citizens self-destruct over labor issues and pensions.
That was one smelly fish.
This is what Wisconsin will be saying next Jan when Scott "We thought about that" Walker gets kicked to the curb.
It will be very interesting to observe the solidarity when members have to write those monthly checks for union dues. Of all the hoopla the check off was the prize. When it is your money in your own account it is a different choice than before. If the unions are so wonderful they won't miss a penny. But I would expect people will want to keep their money
@Althouse -- I would repost the picture. Get it to the top. Help Google do its job.
@rocketeer67 - that's right - without public vetting. The last few weeks people have been protesting the stealth action of their state government. The majority of people of Wisconsin do not want to eviscerate public sector unions. Balance the budget? Public mandate. Limit the unions? Public mandate. Eviscerate all public sector bargaining? Extreme, stealth, gratuitious, unnecessary - and not mandated vetted by voters.
And I sure did pay attention in Althouse's class! Con Law II
doris
The last few weeks people have been protesting the stealth action of their state government.
OK let's step you through your own statement.
If the action was so *stealth* how did the people protesting know about it for weeks?
****
This is what Wisconsin will be saying next Jan when Scott "We thought about that" Walker gets kicked to the curb.
It will be amusing to watch your rising indignation when that doesn't happen.
You really should be banished to Trooper York until you get finish you anger management course.
And not mandated vetted by voters.
You obviously didn't pay attention in that ConLaw II class then.
I never took the class, and even I know that every single thing that legislatures do does not have to be "vetted" by the voters.
All that matters is if they can pass a bill, get it signed by the executive, and that it passes constitutional muster.
Maybe you need a refresher course?
The KosKid assumes the cops did it (apparently not caring to find out on whose side the cops were) as a set-up for some Triangle Shirtwaist/Reichstag scenario. Interesting illustration of how the KosKids' minds (and I use the word loosely) work.
PS Given the amount of coverage on the subject of cops' loyalties in WI recently, the lack of intellectual curiosity on the part of the KosKid is on an even greater level than that which they always assigned to Chimpy McHalliburton Bushitler.
More Obamian, really.
"Where can civilians get handcuffs in Madison? Is there a BSDM store?"
Professional protestors use handcuffs all the time - to chain themselves to fixtures - in Humboldt County they've even devised elaborate pipe systems, locking themselves into the pipes to make it more difficult for the police to remove them - remember the pepper spray case?
And you've got a mass of professional protestors there - do a little digging and you'll find sites where they tell the protestors where to go next, when they get there they are given food and signs and assignments. The left has been at war for a long time - the general public is still oblivious. But people like Pelosi know it full well, and their own words reveal what they themselves have been up to for a long time. "Astroturfing" is only the tip of the iceberg.
Some protesters are more equal than others.
Doris:
1) You're wrong.
2) Where were you when Obamacare was getting railroaded through?
Taking your money out of the bank is a gift to the US Treasury.
It's out of the economy while you have it, that is, it's not being lent out and used by somebody else, so it leaves the Treasury free to print replacement dollars and spend them.
That is, until you put your money back the bank. Then the Treasury has to soak what they printed back up.
But the loan was nice.
Rose
The left has been at war for a long time - the general public is still oblivious.
Eeery I was reading a quote by Walt Disney at the Disney Family Museum just last week, in reference to when they tried to take over his studio-sounded a lot like what they are up to in WI.
There's also a documentary about it. Disney basically stopped doing movies for awhile-can you imagine what he could have done if they hadn't of slowed him down?
Garage;
I wouldn't trust these slimy ratfuckers for the time of day, cops and firefighters knew all along they were next.
just so I understand who you feel are acting inappropriately with rodents of usual size (not to be confused with a ROUS), are you alluding to the police or the Governor/Republicans/legislature?
Professional protestors use handcuffs all the time - to chain themselves to fixtures - in Humboldt County they've even devised elaborate pipe systems, locking themselves into the pipes to make it more difficult for the police to remove them - remember the pepper spray case?
Plus, the "New" SDS, operating out of Wisconsin, was out in Olympia Washington chaining and handcuffing themselves together to stop military supplies form being loaded on ships bound for Iraq, so use/possession of handcuffs is nothing new for some of those actively involved in the Madison protests.
Hideously selfish and self-absorbed runts, who should be scrupulously avoided when at all possible.
“If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?” -- Hillel
It will be amusing to watch your rising indignation when that doesn't happen.
There is no doubt shitbag will be recalled. Most people aren't even aware yet what horror awaits them in the new budget. And they already hate him. I hear they already have half of the signatures needed to boot Kapanske. So they should be able to pick off 3-4 GOP senators ptretty easily. And this is assuming the farce they signed was even legal to begin with. So make sure to vote Kloppenburg Wisconsin!
chickelit said....
"You really should be banished to Trooper York until you get finish you anger management course."
Garage reminds me of Mets fans. They will swear up and down that they have a great team and that Rey Ordenez was a better shortstop than Derek Jeter. No facts or statistics will convince them...they just want to say hurray for their team.
But they just have to face it. They are losers. Always were and always will be. They might win once every thirty years but you can't mention them in the same sentance with the Yankees.
Opening day is twenty days away.
"You really should be banished to Trooper York until you get finish you anger management course."
Rehabbed has a better ring to it....;)
@ BEK477
Can you forward a link regarding the possible need for significant increased funding to the pension fund in WI?
Sounds like we (WI) might be even more broke than I thought.
See, garage is already closed the voting for the All Star game and the season hasn't even started yet.
That's a suckers bet. Just sayn'
Wisconsin doesn't have access to the intarwebs?
So protesters planned weeks in advance to handcuff the Capitol's doors together? Why did they not just buy chains and padlocks like, say, the VA Tech killer did, when he trapped his victims in the building?
@Lincolntf - - take it easy brother have some decaff green tea or something - The increase in pension and health contribs is not radical. It's the removal of ALL bargaining rights except wages (now capped) that's radical! Plus union must recertify each and every year by election. No dues (and why would anyone pay dues if the union can't bargain jack shit). Look I've been practicing employment law for 12 years now (management side) - this is pretty damn radical.
And I think there can be a legitimate debate about whether public sector unions should exist. But we haven't had that. I understand that the legislature "can" do what they've done -- the protestors are standing for the proposition that they "should not" have done this.
(The Crypto Jew)
There is no doubt shitbag will be recalled.
Man, wipe the spittle from your screen….
@ Garage -
having half the signatures to force a recall election against Kapanke is not the same thing as "booting" him.
Dems might be in tough shape when they blow their wad on an unsuccessful recall effort against him with the next general election not far off.
i hope those doors were mirandized.
There is no doubt shitbag will be recalled.
You man Senator Miller? Maybe. Although I have my doubts.
When a 5% contribution to a retirement plan is equivalent to being "gutted"
Maybe it's time to stop repeating this lie? The teachers are protesting their loss of collective bargaining rights, not their pay cut.
"The unions were gutted like fish"
"Lamprey"
to be accurate.
That's a suckers bet. Just sayn
You mean "Fuck, I hope he ain't right".
Walt Disney (testimony):
Herbert K. Sorrell, was trying to take them over. I explained to them that it was none of my concern, that I had been cautioned to not even talk with any of my boys on labor. They said it was not a matter of labor, it was just a matter of them not wanting to go with Sorrell, and they had heard that I was going to sign with Sorrell, and they said that they wanted an election to prove that Sorrell didn't have the majority, and I said that I had a right to demand an election.
So when Sorrell came, I demanded an election. Sorrell wanted me to sign on a bunch of cards that he had there that he claimed were the majority, but the other side had claimed the same thing. I told Mr. Sorrell that there is only one way for me to go and that was an election and that is what the law had set up, the National Labor Relations Board was for that purpose.
He laughed at me and he said that he would use the Labor Board as it suited his purposes and that he had been sucker enough to go for that Labor Board ballot and he had lost some election-I can't remember the name of the place-by one vote. He said it took him two years to get it back.
He said he would strike, that that was his weapon. He said, "I have all of the tools of the trade sharpened," that I couldn't stand the ridicule or the smear of a strike. I told him that it was a matter of principle with me, that I couldn't go on working with my boys feeling that I had sold them down the river to him on his say-so, and he laughed at me and told me I was naive and foolish. He said, you can't stand this strike, I will smear you, and I will make a dust bowl out of your plant.
Maybe it's time to stop repeating this lie? The teachers are protesting their loss of collective bargaining rights, not their pay cut.
So, if that is the case then why are so many locals trying to get their contracts renewed (with pay raises and stuff) before this law is published then?
Sue them and Meade's name and ask for $ and for them to sign over rights to their web address. KOS Meadehouse!!!!
WV: perce Perce them where it hurts
The problem is due to under-funding of pensions.
No such problem in Wisconsin. Alaska and Hawaii, yes, Connecticut and New Jersey, yes. Not Wisconsin.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages
/2011/02/27/magazine/
27christie-grahpic1.html
Via Zip. Check out the photo: Wisconsin Lefties Shoot For World Record: 18 Different Republicans Receive Death Threats in Less Than One Week
OT: New earthquake in Japan.
@fls:
So protesters planned weeks in advance to handcuff the Capitol's doors together? Why did they not just buy chains and padlocks like, say, the VA Tech killer did, when he trapped his victims in the building?
What the hell does that have to do with anything? As posted above, handcuffs are typical professional protester equipment.
And buying them? Nothing could be easier! Amazon Prime, baby!
Most of us contribute 100% to our own retirement and still have to pay 100% of the union member's.
I would like the union members to reciprocate what they get from us union busting, eviscerators who don't appreciate them.
Via Zip. Check out the photo: Wisconsin Lefties Shoot For World Record: 18 Different Republicans Receive Death Threats in Less Than One Week
And in crayon, even. That, to me, says it was a teacher. I mean, they always bitch about having to "buy crayons and stuff for class out of their own pocket" and everything, right?
:p
"There is no doubt shitbag will be recalled."
I hope you're talking about the guys who fled the state rather than stay and participate in the process - but since you're not - you do realize that the vote saved 1,500 people's jobs?
That doesn't seem to matter to the media but it is a big deal. One side was willing to sacrifice the 1,500, one wasn't.
"Maybe it's time to stop repeating this lie? The teachers are protesting their loss of collective bargaining rights, not their pay cut."
Can we stop calling collective bargaining a "right"? That myth has gathered quite a bit of traction, despite the fact that upwards of 90% of Americans have no such "right". It's only a right for the more equal pigs.
Most of us contribute 100% to our own retirement and still have to pay 100% of the union member's
You pay zero fool. So you went from 100% to 0%. Close!
"You mean, 'fuck, I hope he ain't right.'"
Hell, Garbage, I'll bite. Put your money where your mouth is. I've got a hundred bucks in my pocket that says Walker will be re-elected.
Real simple. No 'by how many percentage points' or 'it depends on what the meaning of re-elected is' or any of that crap. You say that next January Walker will get kicked to the curb. I say no. Winner gets a fresh, crisp Benjamin.
wv - "testin." What I'm doing to see if Baghdad Mahal will man up.
"protesting their loss of collective bargaining rights, not their pay cut."
They still have bargaining rights for WAGES - just not for the extras that are uncontrollable.
The can bargain for wages and wages will not unexpectedly double or triple outside of the State's control. Health insurance is outside of their control and it is madness to negotiate away the ability to control those costs.
You pay zero fool. So you went from 100% to 0%. Close!
Really? So you subscribe to the theory that the government has a secret money supply somewhere besides taking it from taxpayers? Maybe a big field with money plants, that they harvest every so often when they need to pay public employees?
JOHN MCDOWELL: In what fashion was that smear, Mr. Disney, what type of smear?
WALT DISNEY: Well, they distorted everything, they lied; there was no way you could ever counteract anything that they did; they formed picket lines in front of the theaters, and, well, they called my plant a sweatshop, and that is not true, and anybody in Hollywood would prove it otherwise. They claimed things that were not true at all and there was no way you could fight it back. It was not a labor problem at all because-I mean, I have never had labor trouble, and I think that would be backed up by anybody in Hollywood. [...]
HAS: Do you recall having had any conversations with Mr. Sorrell relative to Communism?
WALT DISNEY: Yes, I do.
HAS: Will you relate that conversation?
WALT DISNEY: Well, I didn't pull my punches on how I felt. He evidently heard that I had called them all a bunch of Communists-and I believe they are. At the meeting he leaned over and he said, "You think I am a Communist, don't you," and I told him that all I knew was what I heard and what I had seen, and he laughed and said, "Well, I used their money to finance my strike of 1937," and he said that he had gotten the money through the personal check of some actor, but he didn't name the actor. I didn't go into it any further. I just listened.
***
"Some Actor"-the damn schtick has never changed.
Transcript Disney Testimony
Garage could be right. Maybe not, but it's not implausible that all the GOP senators get recalled, as does the new Governor.
And then Madison and Wisconsin continue their long slide into poverty and corruption and mobster unionism, like Illinois, California, Michigan, Ohio, and all those broke Democrat-led cities before it (Detroit, Boston, St. Louis, Oakland, etc., etc..
A stupid choice, certainly, but one repeatedly made in the US, and now one facing us on a national level.
Where are the signs?:
"Thank you Governor Walker for saving our jobs."
Should be at least 1500 of those out in the streets.
@Lincolntf - Yes, the collective bargaining was a "right" pursuant to the state statute. Which has now been changed. Thus, the term "stripped of their collective bargaining rights."
if that is the case then why are so many locals trying to get their contracts renewed (with pay raises and stuff) before this law is published then?
The question to ask is why so many school boards are extending teachers' contracts right now. To answer your other question:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117550018.html
Both Brey [of the WEAC] and Forbes [of the WASB} noted that the settlements usually include some sort of salary schedule freeze as well as the benefit concessions sought by the governor -- with employees paying 5.8% of their salaries toward their pensions and 12.6% of their health insurance premiums.
I'm really hoping the unions start spending big bucks to challenge this in court. It means union dues will go towards that.
And Wisconsin will defend with taxpayer dollars.
Which means the union members get screwed coming and going.
Huzzah!
And garage, any idiot can collect signatures for a recall petition. All a recall does is trigger an election. Walker goes into that election with the wind at his back and a ton of media/meadia that makes the Dems look very, very bad.
IF the recall were to even pass, I would gauge Walkers chances as being excellent, given the behavior of the Dems.
Now, go back to sucking Michael Moore's tit. It'll sooth you.
"You pay zero fool."
Then where does the money come from?
More importantly, where did my tax money go, especially, the last couple weeks?
Can we stop calling collective bargaining a "right"?
Why? We call voting a right when it is no such thing. As long as everyone is treated equally we can all be denied the right to vote.
I don't understand the distinctions of contributions to medical insurance and pensions from base pay.
The taxpayer pays for the entire package (to the extent pensions are actually funded by politians, which is another matter) and the union guy gets the entire package; the union guy gets less pay, and the taxpayer pays less, is the result, regardless how it's distributed.
I think this is a good thing, but don't understand the distinction as part of any argument about it.
The important thing is getting work rules out of collective bargaining. Then you can set the rules to normal ones, and begin to run more like a business. Maybe someday you can even get to market wages then.
Then where does the money come from?
The money came from their paychecks.
More importantly, where did my tax money go, especially, the last couple weeks?
That would depend on a lot of things. Where you live would be where I'd start.
If you can follow the Disney testimony it's basically the same thing-the union had the cards- and didn't want to hold an election giving the workers the right to all vote privately whether or not to unionize.
When Disney held firm to give his workers the right to an election they basically went full boar and ruined his studio-the production was brought to a halt.
At the end of the negotiations when the union got his studio they forced Disney to fire the artists that had been loyal to him. Something about across the board cuts and the artists that didn't strike against Disney got screwed.
He lost some of his best, longest serving and loyal employees.
It always bothered Disney greatly till the day he died.
@fls:
Can you show me where the right to collective bargaining is in the Constitution?
Oh. Right. You can't.
It ain't there. Therefore, it ain't a right.
Yes, the collective bargaining was a "right" pursuant to the state statute. Which has now been changed. Thus, the term "stripped of their collective bargaining rights."
If it was granted by legislative process, it isn't a "right", but rather a "privilege". "Rights" are not granted by government.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the poor teachers (who really can't teach very well) are having their rights (that only they have) stripped away by a Hitlerian dictator who intends to bring WI back to the pre-Civil Rights era. Oh, and the Legislators who stayed at their jobs and did all the heavy lifting are evil, while the cowardly scum who fled to another State are heroes.
Do I finally have it right?
madawaskan, thanks for that story, sadly now lost to the sands of time.
In my childhood Walt Disney was a God!
" the benefit concessions sought by the governor -- with employees paying 5.8% of their salaries toward their pensions and 12.6% of their health insurance premiums."
It's amazing that some people don't see how that is absolutely royal treatment compared to what a similar skill level will get a Net Taxpayer.
They have a point. Without the corruption of unions in government they won't get that. I understand their fighting for it. Michael Moore would still fight a homeless guy for the last potato chip in the bowl. It's human nature.
Doris, unaware of the difference between a right and a privilege. There is no right to a public union cartel in WI constitution. It is a privilege granted by legislature and can be withdrawn by them.
Doris:
Are you arguing that it is wrong to require Wisconsin public employees to have essentially the same right to bargain as US federal employees? If so, why?
Is this such a radical change in the law that it should be subjected to plebiscite or referendum? Is there anything in the WI Constitution that suggests the necessity for such a procedure in those circumstances?
And didn't Walker run on his record as Milwaukee mayor in which he curtailed municipal employees bargaining subjects?
And didn't the unions in support of his democrat opponent advertise that he was a union buster?
"The money came from their paychecks. "
Then just print some more. Scan, print, repeat.
No wonder you're confused.
If it was granted by legislative process, it isn't a "right", but rather a "privilege". "Rights" are not granted by government.
A-fucking-men.
It's amazing that some people don't see how that is absolutely royal treatment compared to what a similar skill level will get a Net Taxpayer.
What is the average salary and benefits for a BA holder (non teacher) in Wisconsin? Supposedly they make more than the teachers do.
I was reading a quote by Walt Disney at the Disney Family Museum just last week
Did they explain Walt was raised a Socialist by his old man, and that he learned cartooning by copying from the socialist paper The Appeal to Reason?
NotYourTypicalNewYorker-
In my childhood Walt Disney was a God!
Me too!
Thanks-cripes I felt like I was spamming the place....that damn story has been bothering me for a week now. It's all the same damn crap-their bag of tricks.
What Walt Disney could have accomplished without that damn deal...
The important thing is getting work rules out of collective bargaining.
Even federal workers can collectively bargain their work rules -- that's gotta be a right, then, right?
fls
I dunno I got hung up on the section where he was in Europe working for the Red Cross as a teenager in 1918.
btw-I don't think Disney "learned" to draw by copying the Socialist hummina hummina...
I mean seriously Disney had a gift our do you want to claim that for the Socialist common cause?
Dude!
Can you show me where the right to collective bargaining is in the Constitution?
Another statist who believes our rights are doled out to us by an all-powerful government.
This is the very thing the anti-Federalist feared would result from a Bill of Rights.
You know the museum kind of blamed his Aunt Maggie for encouraging his talents.
Theft, imho, and DailyKOS is a money-making venture. If not illegal, it is sure unethical as hell.
Legally, it isn't theft, but rather, copyright infringement, that is, in case, likely not criminal.
The failure to comply with the Creative Commons license would turn the copying into infringement, because they are reproducing, inducing to reproduce, contributing to the reproduction, and publicly distributing the work, all now without a license.
The problem though for Meade is that it costs money to sue people (though maybe not, if your wife is a law professor who might be able to entice some of her students into taking it on).
My suggestion is that if this were a big deal for Meade/Althouse (I listed him first, since it is apparently his work), then they should register the photo with the Copyright Office ASAP, and then when the registration is complete, file suit, asking for attorneys' fees and statutory damages (see 17 U.S.C. § 412. Registration as prerequisite to certain remedies for infringement).
Make a deal with the teachers of WI. If they can manage to catch up with the quality of public education in Texas, in any two out of the three major demographic breakdowns, the voters will address collective bargaining again. As long as they continue to lag behind, they get nothing.
fls, The right of the people of each state to a republican form of government is a right granted under US Constitution. Never made it ton that class?
The funniest thing is that all of this is over essentially nothing as far as it will effect the teachers. They are still overpaid. They are still incompetent. They still have benefit and retirement plans that are unsustainable. People are still forced to consume their "services" no matter how repulsively they behave. None of them lost their jobs despite the serial outrages, violations and outright crimes they committed.
The only thing they gave up was the ability to screw everyone quite so easily in the future. Oh, and they will have to write a check to their unions themselves or face reprisals. The government won't do the dirty work anymore. Pity that.
I wonder if the police union will be responsible for sending someone around to collect the checks?
OK so damn it fls if you didn't make me google Elias Disney.
Really how ardent of a socialist can you be if you're Canadian?
Please.
And then there is this ancient Algonquin saying:
The sins of the father are visited on the daughter, er whatever.
"What is the average salary and benefits for a BA holder (non teacher) in Wisconsin? Supposedly they make more than the teachers do."
Well, if so, then teachers should welcome the chance to be free of the unions who are holding them back, keeping them from being paid what they are worth, and charging them dues for the service.
They are either over-compensated or not compared to what they could otherwise get. I assume there is some reason for fighting to stay unionized and paying dues. No?
Never underestimate the deceptive power of comparing a 9-month work year with a 12-month work year. Not to mention 6-hour work days.
Trooper York said...
"I do think that photo thing is only something lawyers worry about."
And I do think you and Crack are just rationalizing your practice of "swiping" or "stealing" or whatever you want to call it. Your - and especially Crack's - defensiveness reveals an awareness that what you're doing is not cricket. I'm not a lawyer, neither am I litigious. But I believe a blogger hurts his own reputation when he uses other people's work and then is too lazy to give appropriate attribution.
So I suggest you either change your ways or just continue what you're doing only with real pride. You could promote LazyAss Pride, maybe even design a logo - something like a big rainbow-ish fist but not clenched very tightly - weak-looking - a fat and lazy wimpy fist. Power To The LazyAsses!
There you go - steal it, it's all yours.
The poor teachers have it so bad, they will do whatever it takes to prevent any change.
I suspect Stockholm Syndrome.
I agree with Meade, but if the photo has the meta data attached, is that sufficient. I mean do you actually need to write (add) redundant attribution? I don't want to read it, and I always assume that the blogger did not actually take the photo of the man with his head up the elephant's ass. I mean we can't always be where the funny is, although soon I suppose there will be an app for that.
Yeah. Meade said those aren't police handcuffs. Not sure how he knew or if he was right. I thought police used those plastic things these days.
I was watching twitter pretty heavily on Wednesday, before and after we left the Capitol about 7pm. There were reports of 100's of plastic handcuffs being brought over to the Capitol by State Troopers (don't know if these are those, or not).
But I believe a blogger hurts his own reputation when he uses other people's work and then is too lazy to give appropriate attribution.
Wow! For some reason that reminded me of seeing a short-lived blog a couple years ago that was almost entirely embedded YouTube music videos. ;)
Another statist who believes our rights are doled out to us by an all-powerful government.
This is the very thing the anti-Federalist feared would result from a Bill of Rights.
FLS has somewhat of a point, but it would be a lot stronger if we were not talking about government employees. It is one thing to argue that there is some natural right to organize in order to bargain with a business for their employment. It is quite another to claim the right to organize in order to purchase politicians who can negotiate on behalf of the citizens and taxpayers, and therefore have effectively the same party sitting on both sides of the table.
In other words, for there to be some sort of natural right to collectively bargain with a government, it would have to be weighed against the rights of the citizens and taxpayers not to be exploited by the government employees. And, in the long run, I would suggest that the rights of the voters and taxpayers are the primary right here, not that of the government employees, and it is their right to protect themselves against corruption, higher spending, lower long term financial commitments, and higher taxes, and that right is, far and away, superior to any right that their employees, the government workers, might have in free association in this area.
So, maybe to simplify - the government workers might have a natural right to organize, but it is trumped by the natural right of the citizenry to protect themselves from the government workers.
bago, if I understand what you mean, the meta wasn't attached. I downloaded it to my pics, and it only displays the dimensions and pixels.
chickelit, doesn't an embedded YouTube video automatically link to the source? Click on the embedded video and it takes you directly to YouTube.
"maybe even design a logo - something like a big rainbow-ish fist but not clenched very tightly - weak-looking - a fat and lazy wimpy fist."
I'd do it, but I don't feel like it right now. Too much work.
FLS - ok I'll grant you the teachers, police, firefighters have a right to collectively bargain, but doesn't the state have the right to tell them to go fly a kite? The state should be free to hire on individual contracts. you WANT the state to be forced to only negotiate UNION contracts. You are the statist.
Meade. Meadey. Meadikins.
We went through this before. I guess this is a sore spot with the missus.
Just because I am Irish and Crack is black doesn't mean we are automatically lazy and shiftless. I mean we are but not automatically.
And I do think you and Crack are just rationalizing your practice of "swiping" or "stealing" or whatever you want to call it
Hey I don't rationalize it. I call it what it is...stealing. I put my effort in lame attempts to be funny not in worrying about attribution. That is legalized mumbo jumbo stuff that doesn't interest me in the least.
But I believe a blogger hurts his own reputation when he uses other people's work and then is too lazy to give appropriate attribution.
I am not pompous enough to worry about my "reputation." It is enough for me to be known as a knucklehead. Hopefully a funny knucklehead. Or as a funny asshole. That's fine too. People who are so worried about their reputations are always getting in blog fights and searching out what other people say about them and writing long posts and calling those other people names and demanding apologies. I am not that sensitive. It's not that big a deal. I don't care. I have two full time jobs so blogging is just fun for me.
So I suggest you either change your ways or just continue what you're doing only with real pride.
As I had said to you before this is not a big issue for me. So how about this? I will never use a photo from this blog or your flicker stream again. Ever. So this will not be a bone of contention between us. So to speak.
And since you guys never post photos of Angie Dickinson, Joey Heatherton, Elizabeth Montgomery, Barbara Eden or Charo it is no big deal.
Peace and Love
Your pal
Trooper York
Trooper slums the porn sites so we don't have to. He does it-"for the children".
We don't want to accidently click on something and see where he's been.
Let's just say-you don't want to open the wrong door at Trooper's-it'sa little like Pandora's Box, or maybe Madonna's.
I did it once, I'm surprised I can still type about it.
Well the only thing I can say about Pandora's Box is....well...lets just say that ironweightsironrails would be very happy. Just sayn'
And she didn't care about anybody copying her photo's. It just meant more people going to her website without having to click through from the farm animals link. Just sayn'
I did it once, I'm surprised I can still type about it.
Really madawaskan? I never caught anything over there. I must immunized or something.
Yes, the collective bargaining was a "right" pursuant to the state statute.
Doris, despite protestations to the contrary, you keep proving that you didn't pay attention in Con Law II.
Actually, I take that back. You may in fact have been paying attention, but you certainly didn't understand much.
And again, I say - not publicly vetted? Really? It was most certainly publicly vetted. I will note that in the two hours of "debate" I watched yesterday, there was not a single Deomcrat that spoke to the specifics of the bill they were about to vote on. It was all about feelings, and process, and crying, and hurting. But about the substance of the bill?
Nothing. I presume because that's all they had. Nothing.
Well madawaskan is a very refined person. She loves Walt Disney but is afraid to find out what cartoon characters are like in real life.
My access to the archives of the directors cut and the "Real Hollywood Stories" of Toontown just freaks her out. Just sayn'
Ya-peter's picadillo.
@vhjagvet - I am not arguing that what the legislature has done violates the Wisconsin constitution. I just do not think it was good governance. I think it should have been discussed in the campaign, debated in the legislature. Obamacare was no grand surprise -- it was debated in the campaigns, debated and amended for months in Congress, and then passed. Some would say we've been having the health care reform public discourse since the 90's.
Right v. privilege - it's an academic debate I think. People do refer to "rights" as conferred by statute. For example, the right to bring a claim. Whatever though - I think we all agree that the "right" or "privilege" of collective bargaining is granted by statute and can be eliminated by our legislature, as has happened here.
I think the evisceration of practically all bargaining rights is radical and the measure deserved far more process than it got.
"And since you guys never post photos of Angie Dickinson, Joey Heatherton, Elizabeth Montgomery, Barbara Eden or Charo it is no big deal."
True but where are your Jesse Jackson pics? Huh, Big Irish?
We own Jesse Jackson.
"We own Jesse Jackson."
If Mort was awake he would say that is racist.
And he'd be right!
So sue me, Sue.
Well madawaskan is a very refined person.
OTOH, perhaps madawaskan's interests are more prurient than my own. I mean, I don't actually click on every photo unless I'm trying to cheat at "Whose that Girl". But ever since Trooper started renaming his "borrowed" photos, that's been impossible.
El Pollo-
Immunized? Must be the chicken.
Trooper-
I knew that would go to Betty Poop before I even hovered over it.
Where's Meade? He's made a strategic error-reminds me of Jose Canseco for some reason.
@Troop: Just had a thought -- why don't you embed hidden clues for "Whose That Girl" in your photo names? Maybe you already do but I haven't cracked your code.
Immunized? Must be the chicken.
Yeah, I meant like chicken pox. Chicken pocks? chicken pax? whatever.
El Pollo
to cheat at "Whose that Girl"
Oh ya! That's exactly how he caught me. It was a picture of Picasso and Bardot-i think I still have the rash to prove it.
@madawaskan: OTOH, there used to be sometimes links in comments can be iffy. Trooper had a chinese dude spamming him once that looked pretty nasty.
Why don't you go there more? It could be fun.
Oops!
Meade is here. I'm off. I'll check back later to lurk at the carnage later.
chickenlittle
Ya I should but I actually have rosacea and Trooper's place makes it flair.
I'm black Irish so I really don't know why that happens.
No need to run off, madawaskan. Get back here. Don't make me use the cuffs.
Meade is here. I'm off. I'll check back later to lurk at the carnage later.
Meadia-shy? :)
I understand that you aren't arguing that the CB legislation was unconstitutional. But if it wasn't, under what principal of "good government" need it be submitted to a process like plebiscite or referendum?
I suggest, Doris, that there was as much policy discussion about the nuts and bolts of Walker's austerity plan as there was about the nuts and bolts of healthcare reform in the 2008 election season.
Oh, and didn't Candidate Obama foreswear calling for an individual mandate?
madawaskan - THANKS! I never knew that about Disney.
@vnjagvet: No way was this debated/vetted. The only reason we've had the debate we have is because the quorom was wrecked. I am a labor and employment lawyer from Milwaukee. I spend 70 hours a week eating, breathing, and drinking Wisconsin labor and employment law. (I also drink scotch) NO ONE saw this coming -- not even my right wing partners who LOVE this bill. This was a surprise to everyone. Including by the way my firm's clients (school districts, municipalities, cities, etc.)
Doris, neither you nor your esteemed right-wing drinking partners were aware of basic Parliamentary procedure? Maybe at the next hen session you should try a little less scotch and a little more studying.
Isn't it amazing that the Republicans went ahead and while surrounded by a screaming crowd voted in a law the crowd hated and then walked out through the crowd. Kudos to both sides. That's deep rooted democracy. Eat your heart out, Hosni Mubarak.
What's a hen session? I've never been to one.
A hens session is the opposite of a cock fight.
Just ask RH Hardin.
Nevermind that herp-derp conservative RealDebateWisconsin blog copied and didn't attribute Meade's picture, but who's counting or blaming?
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