“From a policy perspective, this is terrible,” said Mike Tate, the leader of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin.Yeah, they are making phone calls. I got one yesterday. I played "ordinary voter" and said: "Why shouldn't I just wait until the next election? I mean, there was an election last fall. Shouldn't the people who won their terms finish their terms and just have a normal election?" Blah, blah, blah, from the caller.
“But from a political perspective, he could not have handed us a bigger gift,” Mr. Tate said of the governor.
In the last 24 hours, he added, the state party had received $360,000 in contributions and volunteers have streamed into offices where signatures were being collected for recall bids.
Me: "But it seems like a weird thing to do to keep having more and more and more elections. I mean, people get all excited over the elections in the fall and then, you know, to just have new elections in the spring, I mean, that's really confusing for people. And it seems expensive too. Should we really be doing stuff like that?"
The caller starts telling me that it's legal. It was very hard for me to maintain my Ordinary Voter persona after she tried to go legal on me. I had to say: "Yeah, but people don't do everything they have a legal right to do." And then I couldn't resist saying: "What about the Democratic Senators who went to Illinois? Should they be recalled?" So then she sniffed me out as a nonsupporter and brought the conversation in for a landing, but not before I gave my parting shot: "I think it's a terrible idea and I hope you lose."
Posts
145 comments:
Emma G. Fitzsimmons contributed reporting from Chicago, and Steven Greenhouse and Timothy Williams from New York.
Is it so hard to drive the 2+ hours to Madison. I mean this is the Paper of Record
Well you know what their answer to that is going to be...
"you should have all manner of death threats sent your way. Cause that's the progressive way"
"What about the Democratic Senators who went to Illinois? Should they be recalled?"
Every time the words "craven" or "cowardice" are written or uttered, from this day forward... trust me, Professor: they will be "recalled."
Phone call: Too funny!
(And now you're a marked number)
Like Nancy Pelosi and Newt Gingich before him, Scott Walker is taking his electoral victroy and marching right off a cliff.
Why can't we get some center-right moderates into power? Why are we always dealing with wackos like Walker?
Is it legal for a man to be governor of two states? Maybe we could get Chris Christie to divide his time between NJ and Wisconsin?
So, what, you consider yourself an Extra-ordinary Voter? My, don't WE think highly of ourselves.
From the article: Senators like Fred Risser, who was first elected to the Legislature in 1956, said he was concerned that the Republicans might have some other legislative trick in mind if the Democrats came back to the Capitol right away. “Why would I trust them now?” Mr. Risser asked.
Did you vote for this guy?
Bless the people who stood their ground at great risk, who saved 1,500 jobs, and maybe saved your state. I wish we had a Scott Walker, and some Republican legislators willing to do what's right in California.
You are so lucky.
We are toast.
...my parting shot: "I think it's a terrible idea and I hope you lose."
Made me smile. But is it still cruel neutrality?
BTW, Ann--aren't you one of the teachers who is getting paid so much more than the average Wisconsin resident or private-sector worker?
Ann, you have 7 days to display one of those awesome "fist" thingy's on your blog showing you support of the union, or be crushed by the unions via boycotts and intimidation from the police union-
Kinda surprised you haven't brought up how the police union is threatening and intimidating "non-supporters"..being officers of the courts and all, and how being arrested for your political views may not be far on the horizon.
(you never know when Meadia may suddenly, without warning, "assault" a police officer, and resist arrest---nothing to do with your blog, of coarse)
@lucid: I'm concerned about your trolling.
Funny that illiterate NYTimes does not know the difference between super majority quorum (60%) and a regular quorum (50+%)
@jimspice: Are you Jim Rowen incognito?
BTW, Ann--aren't you one of the teachers who is getting paid so much more than the average Wisconsin resident or private-sector worker?
No, the fabulously wealthy overpaid teachers are the public elementary, middle and high school teacher.
Shorter lucid: "Class Traitor! CLASS TRAITOR -- !!!"
I'm certain the caller reversed her position after such an evisceration from the kindly Prof. Althouse. Weird, I would think it would be the epitome of snobbery to play an "ordinary voter" and yet ask such incisive questions. I really understand how difficult, perhaps even emotional, it must have gotten for you to have to maintain your "ordinary voter" persona, being so extraordinary.
Phil, to bad there is no fast rail
Is it so hard to drive the 2+ hours to Madison. I mean this is the Paper of Record.
There is also not enough demand for direct bus service.
lucid @ 4:38pm:
"BTW, Ann--aren't you one of the teachers who is getting paid so much more than the average Wisconsin resident or private-sector worker?"
Response:
Are you serious? That's the best you've got? You think somebody who has a very particular set of skills that are highly in demand -- like those of a Constitutional Law scholar -- are comparable to a middle school math, science or English teacher?
Professor Althouse has alternatives. She is marketable.
And you're an idiot!
Lucid said:
BTW, Ann--aren't you one of the teachers who is getting paid so much more than the average Wisconsin resident or private-sector worker?
TriangleMan said:
No, the fabulously wealthy overpaid teachers are the public elementary, middle and high school teacher.
Lucid replies:
I don't think so, Triangle. Ann's salary is derived via the same process as the other teachers.
And, given how much time Ann spends on her blog (which also earns her money), she doesn't seem to be spending so much time at work or writing law review articles.
I mean, there was an election last fall. Shouldn't the people who won their terms finish their terms and just have a normal election?
No! That's why we have recall option.
This is funny
Recall target, Sen. Randy Hopper (R-Fond du Lac), talks a good game about family values.
But protesters outside the Hopper house this week in Fond du Lac were met by his wife who reportedly came out and told them: Hopper no longer lives there, but with his 25-year-old mistress in Madison.
No confirmation on whether the divorcing wife signed that petition to recall Hopper who represents Wisconsin Senate District 18.
Awkward!
@Birkel--
She is paid a lot more than any of those teachers, but as part of the same contract process. And, given the time on her blog, she spends a lot fewer hours working at her job.
They're not necessarily overpaid so much as they are underperforming. If the public education they provided wasn't so sub-par, people would be happy to compensate them in return. It's how every single business works. But the failure (or refusal) of Wisconsin teachers to measure up to national norms gives them zero leverage.
They have a beef? Tell them to spend less time waving Hitler signs and more time teaching Susie to read. People might give a shit.
"Made me smile. But is it still cruel neutrality?"
Yeah, it sure as hell is. I am against recall elections where there hasn't been some malfeasance. Just trying to change the results of the last election? That's not fair to citizens who gear up to get informed and go to the polls in the regular election. They should be allowed to go back to their normal lives and have the representatives they chose -- not to have to keep going back to the polls to protect the outcome from the depredations of ever-active politicos sneaking in additional elections.
lucid, how much would AA make in NYC law firm? There is nore demand for a good lawyer that a typical WI teacher who are unable to teach black students or Hispanic students as well as TX teachers do. Envy suits you.
Ann, way to tell off that nineteen year old unpayed intern!
Link because I did not know how the recall process works.
Laws governing recall in Wisconsin
"Why can't we get some center-right moderates into power? Why are we always dealing with wackos like Walker?
Is it legal for a man to be governor of two states? Maybe we could get Chris Christie to divide his time between NJ and Wisconsin?"
LOL. Are you serious? Both men are cut from the same cloth. Very, very, fine cloth.
@Lincolnrtf:
According to The Economist, five states have made collective bargining for teachers illegal.
Their nartional rank on SAT scores is a follows:
South Carolina 49th
Georgia 48th
Texas 45th
North Carolina 38th
Virginia 34th
Do you want to know what Wisconsin's national ranking has been?
2nd.
that nineteen year old unpayed intern!
Awwwwwwww. Old enough to shill for her chosen political position by phone... but far, far too young to be disagreed with, in the process. Such an awkward age for any young girl!
@lucid: Why the venus envy? According to your hero, Brian Leiter, what Althouse makes is actually on the low end. Senior faculty make $200 to $300k. link
@TWM
You're wrong about Walker and Christie being cut from the same cloth. Christie is tough but democratic and fair. He is not out to make government an oppressor of anyone, including its employees.
Christie has sharply distanced himself from Walker and has said repeatedly and loudly that he is in favor of collective bargaining for teachers in NJ. He just wants real negotiations, which he has been aggressively pursuing.
I think that is a great position of a decent and smart man.
Walker is a thug whose time in politics is very limited.
Incidentally, Ann's working part-time at a highly paid full-time job from which she cannot be fired is exactly the kind of thing that Christie WOULD go after.
Do you want to know what Wisconsin's national ranking has been?
Don't you wanna know what California's has been, where the PSU's have everybody by the balls?
@chikelet
No envy here. My own salary is way up there. But I do have to work for it. Being a white male doesn't get you the big bucks for working part-time.
Lucid:
Don't be such a tool for whoever is feeding you talking points.
http://factcheck.org/2011/03/wisconsins-baffling-budget-battle/
lucid: read this:
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html
Burge crushes Krugman and shows how those stats are baloney.
@all
I'm going out for dinner and a movie--Barney's Version. See you later.
Walker is a thug whose time in politics is very limited.
Incidentally, Ann's working part-time at a highly paid full-time job from which she cannot be fired is exactly the kind of thing that Christie WOULD go after.
Gov. Walker is not a thug. He's just a guy who's politics you don't like. That's different. Time and circumstances will tell whether his time in office is short or long. Your conjecture is as good as mine.
How in the hell do you know the circumstances of Althouse's employment? She isn't an hourly worker. I don't see where you get the idea that she has to punch a clock. I can see value to her students from this blog.
Your notion that this is about punishing teachers is just bullshit. This is about stopping a system of graft in which public employee unions payoff Democratic politicians and are rewarded with kickbacks of higher salaries and benefits.
You're a vindictive little motherfucker. Par for the course for a leftist.
TML:
Of course, he does not show the stts are phony--only that he doesn't like them. If you did any of a variety of statistical tests on that data, the relationship would emerge as very robust.
The truth actually does mean something.
Lucid:
Did you control for the appropriate variables when you claimed Wisconsin was 2nd in education?
Oh, you were just disingenuous! Never mind.
WRT Althouse's salary, the laws of supply and demand hold. Her skills are in demand. Those of teachers are not. That's because the supply of people who can "teach" in public schools far exceeds the demand for such "workers".
As a Liberal I understand know you're incapable of understanding economics. My sympathies...
Summary of Iowahawk article:
Black students and Hispanic students do much poorer on standardized tests than white students. Texas has lower test scores, because Texas has a much higher percentage of minority students than white, white Wisconsin.
But, if you break down the scores by race, Texas does a better job of educating white students than Wisconsin, and a much better job of educating black and Hispanic students than Wisconsin.
"What about the Democratic Senators who went to Illinois? Should they be recalled?" So then she sniffed me out as a nonsupporter and brought the conversation in for a landing, but not before I gave my parting shot: "I think it's a terrible idea and I hope you lose."
I think it's time for the professor to come over to the Dark Side. While Wisconsin's dread Progressive legacy means she can't register as a Republican, she can at least join her fellow Dane County Republicans.
http://www.danegop.org/ Click on the red JOIN button. Ignore the talking Obi-Wan or not.
But, if you break down the scores by race, Texas does a better job of educating white students than Wisconsin, and a much better job of educating black and Hispanic students than Wisconsin.
The same holds true for Georgia (which he cited for criticism). In fact, Georgia's students who take AP exams also beat the lily white state of Wisconsin - with the highest percentage of non-whites taking the test in the nation. So not only is Georgia performing much better than Wisconsin overall, but our smart kids beat your smart kids all hollow.
While Wisconsin's dread Progressive legacy means she can't register as a Republican, she can at least join her fellow Dane County Republicans.
That movement started in the Republican Party link before it got hijacked by leftists.
Full Circle
It was very hard for me to maintain my Ordinary Voter persona...
How could anyone buy your "Ordinary Voter persona"? You're practically the Phyllis Schlafly of lawprofessorbloggers!
According to The Economist, five states have made collective bargining for teachers illegal.
Their nartional rank on SAT scores is a follows:
South Carolina 49th
Georgia 48th
Texas 45th
North Carolina 38th
Virginia 34th
Do you want to know what Wisconsin's national ranking has been?
2nd.
And that is called correlation without causation.
the lily white state of Wisconsin
Come now, Wisconsin isn't lily-white.
From Iowahawk:
For 8th grade black students:
Math:
Texas 272
Wisconsin 254 (national 260)
Reading:
Texas 249
Wisconsin 238 (national 245)
Science:
Texas 133
Wisconsin 120 (national 125)
Milwaukee Public Schools are doing a heckva job, aren't they? Good thing Milwaukee's teachers average six figures in compensation.
You think somebody who has a very particular set of skills that are highly in demand -- like those of a Constitutional Law scholar -- are comparable to a middle school math, science or English teacher?
Professor Althouse has alternatives. She is marketable.
I didn't know the market was so good. Obama will have his pick of ConLaw teaching jobs come 2016.
But I suspect there will a law school shakeout -- demand for attorneys is by no means commensurate with supply, as a casual perusal of Above The Law will reveal.
If she should get laid off, getting a Junior College teaching credential should be a snap for the prof, however.
she doesn't seem to be spending so much time at work or writing law review articles.
Once you write the two needed for tenure, you don't have to put pen to paper ever again.
Once you write the two needed for tenure, you don't have to put pen to paper ever again.
...as proven by the career of Elena Kagan.
Why can't we get some center-right moderates into power? Why are we always dealing with wackos like Walker?
Is it legal for a man to be governor of two states? Maybe we could get Chris Christie to divide his time between NJ and Wisconsin?
Christie would do what Walker was doing if the NJ legislature would pass it.
"According to The Economist, five states have made collective bargining for teachers illegal.
Their nartional rank on SAT scores is a follows:
South Carolina 49th
Georgia 48th
Texas 45th
North Carolina 38th
Virginia 34th
Do you want to know what Wisconsin's national ranking has been?
2nd."
------------------------
You do know that data is over 10 years old, dont you?
Get off the WEAC playbook. Its kinda outdated.
This year, I believe Wisconsin is 17th in average ACT scores.
PaulV says: lucid, how much would AA make in NYC law firm?
No offense meant to the proprietor of this blog, but as a rule big law firms don't hire professors who have been out of the legal practice game for decades. And as anyone who is remotely familiar with the legal world will tell you, the skill sets for being a successful law firm attorney are different than those for being a good law professor, and the two don't always (or even often) overlap. That isn't a criticism. Different horses for different courses.
The Republicans really ought to stress the COST of a recall election.
It is very expensive for the voters and puts a huge burden of COST and time on the various districts and the State. Probably millions of dollars in all.
Given that Wisconsin is literally going broke......do the people want to waste money on this recall?? Really???? A recall which is really a continuation of the temper tantrum because they lost the last election.
lucid, Wisconsin student usually take the ACT. Only the rich bright students going to schools out of staebtake the SATs. Your posts reveal the you are statistical illerate or that you are a uncaring bigot proud that the while WI white students do ok, not as well as TX, but that the WI schools utterly fail the black and Hispanic students. Which is it?
Professor: is ripping up a recall petition in any way actionable?
I ask because the smugly self-adoring "this is what Ape Law looks like" bunch is doing that, now.
I love the fact that the morons in the unions don't realize their bosses are driving them over a cliff. Every time a union is asked to choose between giving up benefits or layoffs, the bosses go for layoffs - because they don't want to give up the money and it ain't their job being lost.
Walker saved 1500 union jobs and the unionistas hate him for it.
PS Gasp! Somebody check the avatar. the strain of the struggle turned garage white.
Lucid: According to The Economist, five states have made collective bargining for teachers illegal. (rankings)
How do those states rank for *ACT* scores? In each of those states, as well as my own state, college bound students take the ACTs. Only extremely weird nerdy students who actually seek out standardized testing (such as my 17 year old self) take the SATs.
My percentile ranking was huge on the ACT- I don't recall it exactly, but in the very high 90s. It was only mid-eighties for my state on the SAT (because I was being compared to other nerds, not just everyone who might go to any kind of college). It was a skewed sample.
- Lyssa
In a way, the recall effort will useful as the unions will use up their funds tilting a windmills. The GOP should also start recalls against the fleebaggers as a reserve so that the union funds can be drained into that rat hole. There are only 8 Republicans who could be recalled, not including Walker, so the unions have to defend more races.
The issues don't matter at this point; it is all financial. "It's just business, Sallie."
So, Althouse thinks she outwitted that caller because Althouse showed the caller to be someone earnestly working to support a cause she believes in and is deeply committed to.
I wonder how the caller interpreted this phone call. She may have walked away thinking that Althouse was a deceitful manipulator (based on the fact that she heard Althouse use deceit and manipulation).
I wonder how many of Walker's supporters are A-types, i.e. Althouse-types, i.e. liars. These lib callers probably know if Althouse is the norm, or the exception.
Amazing, the governor took decisive action to save 1500 jobs.
It meant measures designed to save the state money on union labor.
Rather than go to the taxpayers for more, this time, they went to the union and its members.
Sounds logical to me.
But then, I'm not a union-loving cult follower like the people we saw being dragged away in handcuffs while singing their union song. Pretty pathetic, that.
I say to you, you union crooners - get thee a life!
The Republicans really ought to stress the COST of a recall election.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. -- Thomas Paine
It is true that liberty is precious—so precious that it must be rationed. -- Vladimir Ilych Lenin
fls, the state is broke due to overspending. Why do you think that all those overspending Dems were tossed out by voters in November. Trashing the state house will not help.
fls, the state is broke due to overspending. Why do you think that all those overspending Dems were tossed out by voters in November. Trashing the state house will not help.
http://gab.wi.gov/elections-voting/recall
Recall committees exist for eight Republican Senators: Robert Cowles, Alberta Darling, Glenn Grothman, Sheila Harsdorf, Randy Hopper, Dan Kapanke, Mary Lazich, and Luther Olsen, and eight Democratic Senators: Spencer Coggs, Dave Hansen, Jim Holperin, Julie Lassa, Mark Miller, Fred Risser, Lena Taylor, and Robert Wirch.
To recall Walker, over half a million signatures will have to be gathered, beginning in November.
They should be allowed to go back to their normal lives and have the representatives they chose -- not to have to keep going back to the polls to protect the outcome from the depredations of ever-active politicos sneaking in additional elections.
Ann, this is a feature, not a bug. "All politics, all the time" suits leftists just fine. And "the professional left" that Robert Gibbs wasn't supposed to refer to, because it isn't supposed to exist, doesn't have "normal lives" and therefore doesn't care about people who do.
The name of the game is to exhaust and wear down average voters, i.e. those who do not eat, breathe and sleep politics and who prefer not to have to think about elections except every two to four years (if that).
When average voters get so disgusted by the unending politics and cease to show up at the polls, guess who wins the elections? Lefty pols, propelled into office by professional lefty activists and union borg.
I think a recall election is a fine, if needlessly expensive, exercise. Let the fleebaggers, the freeloaders and the mobsters know that they've been beaten once and for all.
Look what I found in Salon, of all places!
If they haven't already done so, the Wisconsin Republicans should immediately pass a voter ID law. People should show their ID before voting. No last minute voting and last minute registering at several precincts under different names. (One vote only please.) If you haven't registered to vote before the election....too bad.
This will prevent the inevitable voter fraud from the 'organized' Democrats who would likely be bussing in from other States, the very same professional protest morons who have been protesting for the last few weeks.
Democrat motto.... All the votes you can buy or forge. Or.....Never too dead to vote. Or.....vote early vote often.
It is amusing, but unsurprisingly, that this article focuses exclusively on how much the *left* has been motivated by this.
There have been recall petitions underway for the fleebaggers for three weeks now, and I would be shocked if Republican voters weren't kicking in money as well.
BTW, Ann--aren't you one of the teachers who is getting paid so much more than the average Wisconsin resident or private-sector worker?
Althouse mentioned weeks ago that she would be taking a big financial hit from Walker's budget.
So yes, presumably she's one of Walker's apparently countless victims.
Amazing, the governor took decisive action to save 1500 jobs.
Walker told fake Koch that he was sending layoff notices to pressure Democrats to return. Not sure what # lie this is, as it grows everday:
WALKER: So, we're trying about 4 or 5 different angles so each day we crank up a little bit more pressure, but the other thing I've got layoff notices ready, we'll put out the risk notices, we'll announce Thursday, they'll go out early next week, probably 5 to 6,000 state workers will get at risk notices of layoffs, we might rachet that up a little bit too.
According to The Economist, five states have made collective bargining for teachers illegal.
More correctly, 45 states have granted teachers' unions special rights not enjoyed by normal workers.
Anybody can collectively bargain. I could get together with my co-workers and we could tell our company "we're not working unless we get a 5% raise this year". And then the folks who run the company could pay us, or fire us, or laugh and tell us "just try it".
In contrast, when an official union pulls that stunt, the employer is legally obligated to negotiate. Otherwise the employer gets fined and/or sent to prison.
Unions don't fight for the right to organize -- every man and woman in America already has that right from birth. What they fight for is the "right" to have the government put a gun to your head and make you negotiate with them.
Unions don't represent liberty and freedom. They represent coercion by the government.
Unions don't fight for the right to organize -- every man and woman in America already has that right from birth. What they fight for is the "right" to have the government put a gun to your head and make you negotiate with them.
This, +1,000,000,000.
The phrase to pay attention to, garage, is "but the other thing". In English, that means "the thing I'm about to mention isn't one of the things we were just talking about".
Walker describes the pending layoff notices as not being one of the ways he's putting pressure on Democrats, but as something else that is planned. He then proposes *increasing* the layoff threats as an additional means of pressure.
And that concludes today's grammar lesson. :)
The name of the game is to exhaust and wear down average voters, i.e. those who do not eat, breathe and sleep politics and who prefer not to have to think about elections except every two to four years (if that).
Is that why the no-fiscal-impact bill requires workers to reselect their union every year? To wear them out?
Contrariwise why not require the governor to go before the electorate once a year? Sauce for the goose, etc. Unfortunately Wisconsinians can only try to get him tossed out once this term.
And that concludes today's grammar lesson. :)
That concludes "I just made up a bunch of shit to make that look not quite as bad". The "we might rachet that up a little bit too" is about the budget huh.
@garage
I just saw Scott Walker.
Really.
Got a little obsession going there?
Is that why the no-fiscal-impact bill requires workers to reselect their union every year? To wear them out?
The old way was "once the union has won there's no further need for democracy". The new way requires elections at regular intervals.
What makes the tactic david describes so exhaustive isn't that people are allowed to vote on something more than once, but that they are required to pay constant attention to politics because the voting occurs at random intervals. In such an environment there's never a time when you can NOT think about politics, unless you're willing to cede power to those who are.
He's wrong that only the political left tries this, though.
The "we might rachet that up a little bit too" is about the budget huh.
Garage, re-read what I wrote and pay attention this time. Hint: I didn't even mention the word "budget".
former law student:
Clearly you know not of what you speak. Have you checked Professor Althouse's publication record?
Have you checked the publication records of other tenured professors at UW-Madison? Have you checked the publication records of other professors at comparable academic/research institutions?
You are a goof.
"I am against recall elections where there hasn't been some malfeasance."
I'm curious -- do you consider the flight of the 14 Democratic senators "malfeasance?" (I don't think I do, fwiw.)
He's wrong that only the political left tries this, though.
By definition, those who believe in limited government do not believe that government should be inserting itself into every nook and cranny of individuals' lives.
By extension, therefore, those who believe in limited government are not dispositionally inclined to make everything about politics.
"All politics, all the time" OTOH *is* very much a natural consequence of the belief that government should be deciding darn near everything, including how many gallons of water are sufficient to flush a toilet.
Libertarians and conservatives, on principle, would be happy to remove huge swaths of what is currently political battlground out from under the political umbrella. So would a lot of moderates, not so much on principle, but because they just get tired of hearing about the politics 24/7.
It is the left which instigated and continues to be the primary driver of dragging everything and everyone into the political arena.
Unfortunately, in order for conservatives and libertarians to reclaim something as a non-political issue or area of life, it is necessary for them to become political and use politics to do the reclamation.
Because ignoring politicization and growing government control only leads to more politicization and government control.
The mentality of a committed leftist is insatiable. More power, more power, more power.
And let's not conflate "Republican" with "conservative." Plenty of Republicans are "all politics, all the time" people not out of the necessity of reclaiming unnecessarily politicized tracts of American life from the clutches of leftists, but because they have their own agendas. These people have no principled belief in limited government. They just want a big govt to do their bidding and not the bidding of their opponents.
@redhead:
The ACT scores show the same pattern.
You actually could look this stuff up yourself, but here it is for you:
South Carolina 46th
Georgia 40th
Texas 35th
North Carolina 26th
Virginai 22nd
Wisconsin 2nd.
c'mon lawgirl--get serious. It's a straw man to talk about proof. The correlation requires explanation.
At a minimum, the stats make it absurd to argue that teachers union cause failing schools.
At a minimum, the stats make it absurd to argue that teachers union cause failing schools.
Never argued that one bit.
Argued teachers union cause failing budgets and future debt problems.
Clearly you know not of what you speak. Have you checked Professor Althouse's publication record?
The commenter's implication was she's shirking her duty (because of the time blogging takes). I pointed out she's not obliged to write any.
The ACT scores show the same pattern. You actually could look this stuff up yourself, but here it is for you:
South Carolina 46th
Georgia 40th
Texas 35th
North Carolina 26th
Virginai 22nd
Wisconsin 2nd
Yes, you looked it up, but you still don't understand the data.
For example, Wisconsin has a much lower percentage than Texas of graduating students that actually get tested. Its like comparing the 1st string of one team against the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of the other.
ie. lies. damn lies. statistics.
BTW, this entire line of argument was debunked some days ago. Go ask your community organizer for fresh talking points.
Kevin (and a couple of other people) quoted Iowahawk's SUPPOSED rebuttal of the SAT/ACT rankings in relatinship to the banning of collective bargaining by teachers. The way Kevin summarized IowaHawk's argument was accurate.
Kevin wrote:
"Summary of Iowahawk article:
Black students and Hispanic students do much poorer on standardized tests than white students. Texas has lower test scores, because Texas has a much higher percentage of minority students than white, white Wisconsin.
But, if you break down the scores by race, Texas does a better job of educating white students than Wisconsin, and a much better job of educating black and Hispanic students than Wisconsin."
LUCID ANSWERS, CORRECTLY:
Iowahawk's "analysis" is sophistical nonsense that is designed to mislead and that no statistician or mathematician would accept as meaningful or even rational.
This is because his argument compares only Wisconsin to the five states that outlaw teachers' collective bargaining and that have such dismal SAT/ACT rankings.
But that way of doing things ignores the other 44 states that the five dismal outlaws have done so badly in relationship to and that comprise the actual competition. North Caorlina is not ranked 49th in comparison to Wisconsin, but to all the other states in the Union. So it had many chances to do better than 49th, competing against states with a variety of demographic circumstances.
Those five non-collective bargaining states did badly not just in comparison to Wisconsin but in comparison to all 50 states taken as a group for comparison.
So, for example, Illinois and Michigan, both of which have large minority populations and high rates of poverty, both tie at 13th in the SAT/ACT rankings--way ahead of the states that outlaw collextive bargaining by teachers.
IowaHawk may or may not be smart enough to know that his argument is sophicstical and false. But his argument is actually nonsense, and one wonders at the use of a racial argument to make such a misleading point.
those who believe in limited government do not believe that government should be inserting itself into every nook and cranny of individuals' lives.
And this is somehow consistent with dictating to the workforce what issues they can discuss with their government employers?
By extension, therefore, those who believe in limited government are not dispositionally inclined to make everything about politics.
So the Tea Partiers, the listeners to Rush and Sean and Billo and Mark and Glenn and Savage do not believe in limited government, because they are all but obsessed with politics. Got it.
And this is somehow consistent with dictating to the workforce what issues they can discuss with their government employers?
If the government doesn't determine the terms and conditions for government employment, who does? The UN?
And while I'm pointing out that Ann is a state teacher who can't be fired, who has a defined benefit pension, and who apparently has an awful lot of free time to spend doing soemthing that is not her job---
I should in fairness point out that Glenn Reynolds of Instpundit is also a state employee and a teacher who appears to spend an enormous amount of time doing things that are not related to his job and from which he earns significant income. He also cannot be fired. I am curious what his salary is, how much he pays for his health care, what his pension arrangements are, and how his blogging activities and tie-ins to expensive items at Amazon are related to his area of "expertise" in the law.
How many hours a week does Glenn Reynolds spend teaching or working with students? What is his scholarship like? And since he so vociferously objects to the very state teacher arragements by which he earns his guaranteed living, why doesn't he quit and work in the private sector and stop taking advantage of the citizens of his state who pay his salary but who do not earn as much as he does?
It would at least end his hypocrisy.
lucid, your argument is that Michigan has better SAT scores because they have unionized teachers, really?
Interestingly, Detroit Public Schools posted the worst scores on record in the most recent test of students in large central U.S. cities.
It won't show up in your SAT numbers because these kids are so poorly educated they don't even bother to take the SATs.
Heckuva job, union teachers.
So the Tea Partiers, the listeners to Rush and Sean and Billo and Mark and Glenn and Savage do not believe in limited government, because they are all but obsessed with politics. Got it.
Actually, you don't get it at all.
I suspect re-reading paragraph six won't help. None so blind as those who will not see, and all that jazz.
Lawgirl,
Your argument is so silly it had me laughing.
You didn't actuyally get into law school, did you?
So, for example, Illinois and Michigan, both of which have large minority populations and high rates of poverty, both tie at 13th in the SAT/ACT rankings--way ahead of the states that outlaw collextive bargaining by teachers.
You're suggesting that collective bargaining for teachers is the reason that Michigan scores on the SAT better than North Carolina? Really?
How do you explain the fact that Detroit Public Schools posted the worst scores on record in the most recent test of students in large central U.S. cities?
Apparently the union teachers in Detroit didn't do enough collective bargaining or something.
Lucid -
Not that it matters to a professional stink-stirrer, but the info about Glenn Reynolds is available with a modicum of research on the innertubes. His salary is published by the state of TN, as are the salaries of all state employees.
He has also blogged about (1) his teaching duties, (2) his law publications, (3) his pension (defined contribution, not defined benefit), and (4) the arrangement he has made with his department concerning his blogging.
Glenn Reynolds latest legal scholarship:
"At Amazon, markdowns on power tools."
This is what the citizens of Tennessee pay their taxes for?
@David (see ArmY of):
He should go work in the private sector and see what kind of arrangement he can make with his employer to spend most of his work week not doing his job when he is not protected by tenure.
Then he would not be so flagrantly hypocritical.
And I note that you carefully do not provide any of the details with which you appear to be very suspiciously familiar. The details of Glenn Reynold's remuneration and work arrangements seem to be at the very forefront of your mind.
Click through for power tools at 8% for Glenn.
Somefeller, are you pretending a law school would not have to pay more to hire a lawyer with a decade of experience in big NYC law firm than a school district would have to pay a teacher? You realize that teachers score lower on standardize tests than any other college grads? Lucid, you haave proven your lack of understanding of statistics. I suggest you read IowaHawk slowly. He explains why you are wrong. In fact, the data is cite is wrong, That is why you failed to link your source.
Lucid, do all liberals suffer so badly from envy like you do. With your limitations you have a lot to envy.
@ lucid "Glenn Reynolds latest legal scholarship:
"At Amazon, markdowns on power tools."
This is what the citizens of Tennessee pay their taxes for? "
The more you write lucid, the less .. ahh .. lucid you've become. Do you really think the state of TN pays for his blog? Are you that much of an idiot?
Paulie--just google state ranking sat scores and you can see the data. Isn't it enough I have to do your thinking for you? And I actually am quite qualified in statistics.
And even then you just don't understand the argument. What IowaHawk says is actually absurd. Perhaps you just like the racial aspects of his "argument"?
And I think it you and yours who are suffering with envy. I am fine with what teachers get--I think they should get more. And my income is very nice, thank you. Hard for Althouse or Reynolds to make me envious.
I just can't stand the hypocrisy and the bullying of Althouse and Reynolds who, unlike the teachers themselves, are truly exploiting the very system that they pretend to oppose.
I actually am very grateful to my teachers.
rick--you, sadly, are the idiot.
The state pays him to be a teacher of law. He spends most of his time blogging. Can you do that at your job?
Paulie--
Ann was an associate at a good law firm--not for many years and not as a partner. I once dated a lovely brunette associate from that firm, a few years after Althouse was gone. The young woman I dated from Sullivan and Cromwell was extremely talented orally. Really unforgettable. Ah, memories.
So, for example, Illinois and Michigan, both of which have large minority populations and high rates of poverty, both tie at 13th in the SAT/ACT rankings--way ahead of the states that outlaw collextive bargaining by teachers.
Interesting. So why does Wisconsin do so poorly, despite its low minority population?
Texas 71% white.
Wisconsin 91% white.
And Paulie--
If you want to see what a blog done by a serious legal scholar looks like--one who is not hawking power tools at Amazon so that he gets his 8%--try googling Becker-Posner blog. Their blog actually should qualify as a contribution to scholarship--unlike what Ann or Glenn do.
It is maintained by their University and has no links to Amazon.
The hypocrisy of Althouse and Reynolds on this issue--as they barely spend time on their state jobs but take their state salaries while trying to make money at their hobby--is appalling.
The hypocrisy of Althouse and Reynolds on this issue--as they barely spend time on their state jobs but take their state salaries while trying to make money at their hobby--is appalling.
And yet, somehow, you persevere regardless.
They make medals for people like you and Saint Joan, you know.
Kevin--
The state rankings place the five outlaws among 50 states, which are various and diverse in their demographic composition. Their dismal rankings are only
1/50th in relation to Wisconsin. You and IowaHawk want to make the comparison to Wisconsin 100% of the comparison. It is a false argument.
As to why Wisconsin and Texas appear to do differently with minority populations--that is a question for the sociologists and education researchers. My guess would be that the minority populations are not in fact the same--that they are different in significant ways that affect the educational outcome. But IowaHawk encourages you to believe that all minority populations are the same, which is again a questionable racial argument on his part--and I say that as no friend of affirmative action, which I detest.
No one who has looked disinterestedly at the two school systems seriously doubts that Wisconsin's schools are vastly superior to those in Texas.
No one who has looked disinterestedly at the two school systems seriously doubts that Wisconsin's schools are vastly superior to those in Texas.
LOL. Really? Why does Wisconsin do such a terrible job educating black students relative to Texas and the rest of the country?
Or are you asserting that Wisconsin does a good job educating black students?
By definition, those who believe in limited government do not believe that government should be inserting itself into every nook and cranny of individuals' lives. By extension, therefore, those who believe in limited government are not dispositionally inclined to make everything about politics.
True, but the world isn't divided up into "left-wingers" and "people who believe in limited government".
It is divided up into "left-wingers", "most right-wingers", and "people who believe in limited government".
Kevin
It won't do any good for me to explain things to you if you either don't read what is said or are incapable of understanding it.
As I said, the most likely answer to your question is that not all black populations are the same. But no one who knows anything about the school systems would seriously argue that Texas compares well to Wisconsin. It is an argument that can't be seriously made.
My brother-in-law actually took custody of his two daughters specifically to get them out of the Texas public schools.
But forgive me. Given the quality of your arguments, perhaps you went to school there?
LOL.
I love watching the racist liars like Lucid shriek about "hypocrisy" when in fact they are making death threats and planning to plant bombs in public buildings.
Those are the facts. The people have seen how Lucid and its fellow racist hatemongers plan to murder Republicans and their families, destroy and vandalize public property and businesses, and demand unlimited welfare checks to support them.
Barack Obama and his puppets like Lucid have shown their true face. They have written the death threats. They have made it clear they will vandalize and blow up public buildings. They believe that people should be forced to make political contributions to the Obama Party or be fired.
No wonder they come around here trying to bite at ankles to restore some level of credibility. Their credibility died when they signed those death threats and made those attacks upon businesses.
As I said, the most likely answer to your question is that not all black populations are the same. But no one who knows anything about the school systems would seriously argue that Texas compares well to Wisconsin. It is an argument that can't be seriously made.
Absolutely it can be.
The problem is, Lucid, that racist leftists like yourself live in a delusional world in which your leftist ideology can never be wrong.
You're simply beyond the ability to understand facts. You merely repeat the talking points provided you by the Obama Party and resort to death threats when you don't get your way.
No one here seriously believes that you even have a university degree. You're merely another paid talking-points repeater, desperately trying to keep in place your system of slavery that requires people to make political contributions to your failed, corrupt Obama Party or lose their jobs.
My brother-in-law actually took custody of his two daughters specifically to get them out of the Texas public schools.
Actually, it was because your brother-in-law was raping and molesting his daughters and needed to flee to a more liberal state where sex with underage children is supported and defended.
We can certainly understand why you spin that reason. It's much better than acknowledging that your sister supported his drugging his daughters and having sex with them, isn't it?
What's the matter, Lucid? Don't like the "anecdotes" game?
Hey there, North Dallas Thirty.
Your comments fall in the "too stupid to address" category.
But thank you for the demonstration of what the Texas public schools can produce!!! I couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm sure Althouse is proud to count you as a reader.
And here's another example of the hilarious hypocrisy and lack of thought of the talking-points repeaters like Lucid.
Lucid whines about Reynolds:
The state pays him to be a teacher of law. He spends most of his time blogging.
And yet Lucid, who claims to work and have a job, spends virtually all of his time spamming blogs with talking points.
So if Lucid can still hold down a job and spam multiple blogs with talking points, why is it impossible for Reynolds to do the same?
Or is it because Lucid is a hypocrite and a liar who is merely attacking Reynolds in order to drag him down and silence him? We already know that Lucid and its fellow Obama Party leftists are threatening to murder Republicans' families, bomb public buildings, and the like to silence and permanently shut up anyone who dares oppose or argue with them.
Your comments fall in the "too stupid to address" category.
And yet you did address them. So hilariously, you've contradicted yourself.
We understand, though. Liberals like yourself are truly incapable of reading and understanding intelligent thought. As you've demonstrated here, you really lack the capacity to think outside the Obama-provided talking points you're provided, and the extent of your writing skills are obvious in your death threats.
But thank you for the demonstration of what the Texas public schools can produce!!! I couldn't have said it better myself.
Indeed. They produce intelligent, well-read citizens who can spot uneducated thugs like yourself who do nothing but spout talking points and who clearly have no grasp of issues.
Don't worry. As Sheila Jackson-Lee shows, you can be completely delusional and still make it to being an Obama Party leader. There may be hope for you yet.
The state rankings place the five outlaws among 50 states, which are various and diverse in their demographic composition.
Sure, the states are diverse. The relative academic performance of the major ethnic groups is not.
This is an examination of the results for the National Assessment of Educational Progress, broken down by race (Hispanic/White/Black), grade (4th/8th), and subject area (reading/science/math). Texas beats Wisconsin in 17 out of 18 categories.
By the way, the university researcher who first brought up the relative state rankings would like you to quit citing him.
Returning now to the phone call about the recall. Here's a really great idea, why don't we just have elections every year? All elected officials have to run every year. Then we wouldn't have to be burdened by these nasty recall efforts.
Here are some spectacular results from unionized educators in Detroit:
NAEP Achievement Levels
• Basic denotes partial mastery of prerequisite knowledge and skills that are fundamental for proficient work at each grade.
• Proficient represents solid academic performance. Students reaching this level have demonstrated competency over challenging subject matter.
• Advanced represents superior performance.
4th Grade National Average
Advanced: 6
Proficient: 33
Basic: 43
Below basic: 19
4th Grade Michigan
Advanced: 5
Proficient: 30
Basic: 40
Below basic: 22
4th Grade Large cities
Advanced: 5
Proficient: 24
Basic: 43
Below basic: 28
4th Grade Detroit
Advanced: 0
Proficient: 3
Basic: 28
Below basic: 69
Just imagine how badly these kids would have done if their teachers hadn't had collective bargaining!
And I note that you carefully do not provide any of the details with which you appear to be very suspiciously familiar. The details of Glenn Reynold's remuneration and work arrangements seem to be at the very forefront of your mind.
You were the one who brought up the questions, posed in the tone that some nefarious coverup was going on & insinuating that this information was not available to anyone with an internet connection.
Therefore it is not incumbent upon me to provide the information. You were the one with the snarky questions, you can get off your duff and do the work yourself.
But here, I will cut up the veggies for you into very small bites. Try starting with:
#1: Google "tennessee state employee salaries."
#2: Search Instapundit archives for references to his pension, blogging, teaching duties, etc.
Below basic: 69
The Democratic Underground commentariat, in perfect miniature.
True, but the world isn't divided up into "left-wingers" and "people who believe in limited government".
It is divided up into "left-wingers", "most right-wingers", and "people who believe in limited government".
Aaaaaand you have just switched definitions. Nice try.
If you are going to take issue with what I said, please either stick with the original definitions or explain how they are not accurate:
Leftists: want big government
Libertarians and conservatives: want limited government
Republicans: not all are conservatives, quite a number are big-govt types.
Your definitions divide "right-wingers" and "those who believe in limited government" into two separate and distinct camps. Which would be true if the label "right-winger" is completely exclusive of "conservative." And yet liberals and leftists use these terms interchangeably all the time to refer to the same people.
You can't have it both ways. Either conservatives are right-wingers, in which case your definitions are total bunk ... or conservatives are not right-wingers, in which case your definitions and mine align, but decades of liberal & leftists labeling are total bunk.
Take your pick.
@Revenant and Maguro.
Please try to keep up. Both of your points are actually completely irrelevant to the argument. The issue is not a black-white comparison, but a Texas-black vs. a Wisconsin-black comparison.
And even this discussion is a side issue to IowaHawk's using a false comaprison to obscure what is not in doubt:
that the states that outlaw collective bargaining by teachers have truly dismal levels of educational attainment in comparison to the other 45 states.
And that is itself a side issue to the hypocrisy of Ann Althouse and Glenn Reynolds--state workers who benefit from not being fireable and who spend most of the work week doing something other than what the citizens of their state pay them taxes to do.
They could never get qway with what they are doig in private employment.
They are actually the worst instances I know of what they purport to condemn.
@David.
Actually, many conservatives don't wantlimited government. They want the government to control and legislate things like sexual behavior and speech. Or, like Walker, they want to expand the power of government by removing rights or protectios from classes of people.
So what's your assessment of the union educators in Detroit, lucid? Doing a solid job?
Please keep in mind that what I listed above represents the worst performance ever by any district in the history of NAEP testing.
I would love to see you extoll the virtues of techers unions to a group of Detroit public school parents. That would be a hoot.
@Maguro:
I don't know whether you really don't understand or are simply pretending to be dim.
I am NOT saying the Detroit schools are any good. What I am saying is that the 5 states that outlaw collective bargaining by teachers have very poor educational outcomes in comparison to the other states.
You need to deal with why those five states that outlaw collective bargaining do so poorly in relation to the other 45 that don't outlaw collective bargaining.
Picking one state to compare to another just cherrypicks the evidence.
The state rankings are a very simple statistical statement that I am sure you understand very well--you just don't like what they show.
Look at it this way. How many possible different rankings of the 50 states could there be? The answer to that is 30414093201713378043612608166064768844377641568960512000000000000 different rank orders.
Given that number of possible permutations, what is the probability that the five states that outlaw collective brgaining by teachers wound up so close together at the bottom of the list by chance?
@Lawgirl
Clearly you are mathematically challenged and you understand nothing about statistics.
Don't take any cases with numbers in them.
@lawgirl.
idiot. i've been posting here a lot longer than you. just bcause you can talk doens't mean you can say something.
Glenn Reynolds is offering markdowns on flashlights and lantersns.
PaulV asks: Somefeller, are you pretending a law school would not have to pay more to hire a lawyer with a decade of experience in big NYC law firm than a school district would have to pay a teacher?
No, I am stating nothing of the sort. Your original comment was lucid, how much would AA make in NYC law firm?, which implies that Althouse could easily jump from her current job to an NYC law firm and that should be considered for compensation purposes. I simply pointed out that was an incorrect assumption, given the nature of the legal job market and for the reasons I mentioned. But yes, obviously someone with a law degree from a good law school and a couple of years (not a decade, as you say) of law firm experience is competing in a different job market than someone with a bachelor's degree in education and a teaching certificate. Duly noted. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Maybe next you can point out the important fact that water is wet.
Revenant says: True, but the world isn't divided up into "left-wingers" and "people who believe in limited government". It is divided up into "left-wingers", "most right-wingers", and "people who believe in limited government".
Nicely put, and an accurate description of politics in the real world.
@lawgirl:
lucid says: "idiot. i've been posting here a lot longer than you. just bcause you can talk doens't mean you can say something."
I.e., lucid has seniority.
@largo.
Ha! Nice shot! But actually I was answering sillygirl's accusation that I was a troll, which to my mind means a transient visitor.
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