Althouse: News from inside the Capitol: "Vets memorial is clean n clear... About 50 hard core protesters still here confined to ground floor."

March 1, 2011

News from inside the Capitol: "Vets memorial is clean n clear... About 50 hard core protesters still here confined to ground floor."

Texts my inside source.

165 comments:

Anonymous said...: Is anyone worried about disruptions during Walker's "State of the Unions" address?; 3/1/11, 11:07 AM
MadisonMan said...: More importantly, a Judge has removed the restrictions to access, which he found to be unconstitutional.

Link; 3/1/11, 11:14 AM
traditionalguy said...: So the Press Credentials Meade wangled out of some place ( maybe a printer with a press) must have worked like a charm.; 3/1/11, 11:14 AM
Anonymous said...: disruptions

If they want to put the cherry on this disastrous sundae they've made, I say have at it.; 3/1/11, 11:16 AM
MadisonMan said...: Dane County has a lot of judges. 18!

Maybe that's not a lot compared to other counties with ~500K people.; 3/1/11, 11:17 AM
Fen said...: "Police limited access to the Capitol on Monday after protesters inside refused to comply with police directives"

Message: do whatever you want; 3/1/11, 11:18 AM
Unknown said...: Sounds like a sitrep.; 3/1/11, 11:19 AM
zbogwan99 said...: I'd like to see who these 50 hardcorers are,if they are teachers or paid Union professional agitator protesters?; 3/1/11, 11:23 AM
Anonymous said...: Here is a photo of one protester sleeping. Check out his feet.

http://bit.ly/eu8UhL; 3/1/11, 11:32 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I think the "hard core" concept may simply mean these are the people who have endured and not left after it became impossible to leave and then come back. They really are dedicated people and the interest in their holding on heroically at this point is, I'm sure, well understood by them.; 3/1/11, 11:33 AM
alan markus said...: "I'd like to see who these 50 hardcorers are"

I'm guessing some burnouts on SSI-Disability, maybe a bunch of students who have yet to tell their parents that when they went back to UW after holiday break they didn't resume classes, and some higher functioning chronic homeless types.; 3/1/11, 11:34 AM
Anonymous said...: I'm just sayn.; 3/1/11, 11:34 AM
wordsmith2 said...: I know at least one of the attendees at this slumber party. He's a well-educated professional, director of a genuinely useful nonprofit organization. And he was, before yesterday, going in to his job every day.

But he is an ultraliberal Madisonian who feels that this is an attack on the working class, so even though he doesn't really have any skin in the game (except as a taxpayer), he's standing with the unions. Sigh.

I really need a better class of friends. Or to move out of Madison.; 3/1/11, 11:46 AM
Kev said...: (the other kev)

I think 'restricted' would be a better term than 'confined.' The latter implies the protesters aren't being allowed to leave, and I'm pretty they're welcome to.; 3/1/11, 11:50 AM
Carol_Herman said...: Well, my guess is that the "50 hard core" protesters are playing to the "gallery of media" ... they're gonna look lost. Given how the "problem" once contained THOUSANDS of demonstrators.

I've also just read that the governor threw out all the local police, and has, instead, brought in the STATE police.

By the way, you'd need about two buses to cart off the "hardcore" and arrest them.

Maybe, the decision has been made to NOT create a further disturbance now, because the later on the governor will speak to the legislature. And, this will probably get national attention?

Yeah. I read that there are underground tunnels, which the governor will walk through, to get to the assembly room.

Here, in Pasadena, if you know the tunnel system, you can walk through Caltech. From one end to the other. It's the way the professors move around during the day.

You know, DISNEY also knows how to "steer" crowds. Whether friendly. Or unfriendly.; 3/1/11, 11:54 AM
Wince said...: "About 50 hard core protesters still here confined to ground floor."

A father searches for his missing daughter. Only to find she has been used in a sordid and shocking way...

TURN IT OFF!!!; 3/1/11, 11:55 AM
MayBee said...: He's a well-educated professional, director of a genuinely useful nonprofit organization.

How does it affect him if, say, taxes go up to pay for the union benefits, and people have less money to contribute to nonprofits?; 3/1/11, 11:56 AM
MadisonMan said...: I read that there are underground tunnels, which the governor will walk through, to get to the assembly room.

I've always wanted to be Governor just so I could explore the Capitol and find all the "secret" passages, and also go all the way up to the top of the Rotunda and look down.

My dream house would have sliding bookcases and secret staircases all over the place.; 3/1/11, 11:58 AM
Henry said...: "About 50 hard core protesters still here confined to ground floor."

That's two jury pools right there.; 3/1/11, 11:58 AM
KCFleming said...: The protests: in like a lion, out like a lamb.; 3/1/11, 12:00 PM
MadisonMan said...: How does it affect him if, say, taxes go up to pay for the union benefits,

There is no proposal to raise taxes to pay for union benefits, which are being cut.

I would say the impact of many people in Dane Co taking an 8-13% pay cut would be -- at least in the short term -- higher. Because people will have less money.; 3/1/11, 12:00 PM
garage mahal said...: More importantly, a Judge has removed the restrictions to access, which he found to be unconstitutional.

And it appears the Dicktator is just ignoring. This is a excellent way to squelch protesters though!; 3/1/11, 12:07 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: There is no proposal to raise taxes to pay for union benefits, which are being cut.

Actually....no. There is no proposal to CUT benefits. (Be honest MM). There is the proposal to have the recipients contribute more towards their benefits.

The taxes will be raised if the ability to control raises in FUTURE benefits is not granted by removing collective bargaining for benefits. Wages are still under collective bargaining process.

When the shortfall in the budget (expenses verus income) reaches critical mass....which is right about now....the Government has two choices.

1. Reduce expenses which WILL mean reduction in benefits or lay offs of employees

2. Raise taxes and fees to increase revenue.

Probably both things will occur.

Reality happens whether we like it or not.; 3/1/11, 12:10 PM
$9,000,000,000 Write Off said...: I'm heading down there to show my support with a sign that reads "This Hard Worker Supports the Hardly Workers". Except I have to work, so maybe not.; 3/1/11, 12:12 PM
MadisonMan said...: Be honest MM

Actually, I was just being unclear. Thanks for clarifying things.

Although a referendum passed this past November for the local Technical College and resulted in a tax bump (that passage was pretty surprising, IMO), I think further tax increase requests by the Schools will be difficult to sell. We'll see though.

The City of Madison definitely needs to do some cutting however. It's ridiculous that they increased spending by 5% for the coming year over last year.; 3/1/11, 12:13 PM
MayBee said...: The taxes will be raised if the ability to control raises in FUTURE benefits is not granted by removing collective bargaining for benefits.

Exactly.

Whatever 'plan' is on the state's table, surely this guy realizes what real options are out there.

(Federally, increasing taxes has been put on the table. It all comes out of the same paychecks, no? But I bet this guy hates the TEA partiers); 3/1/11, 12:18 PM
wordsmith2 said...: At least one of the Democratic state senators may be reconsidering this principled stand they're taking, according to Fox Nation: "State Sen. Julie Lassa (D) is pregnant and 'extremely unhappy' about being on the run. State Sen. Jon Erpenbach (D) has been hit particularly hard by his paycheck being withheld. Wisconsin State Senate leadership is currently negotiating with eight of the fourteen to come home."; 3/1/11, 12:24 PM
Alex said...: So the people do not want the unions busted, they don't want their lavish benefits cut at all and don't want tax increases. Can you say that most people are living in LA-LA land?; 3/1/11, 12:24 PM
MayBee said...: I think further tax increase requests by the Schools will be difficult to sell.

Tax increase requests don't only come from schools.; 3/1/11, 12:25 PM
Sofa King said...: I think further tax increase requests by the Schools will be difficult to sell. We'll see though.

Very difficult, I would think. Given the cuts in local funding that are coming, the question for most communities is going to be how do deal with the shortfall:

(1) Cut staff
(2) Cut benefits

With collective bargaining intact, it is sure to be (1). Without, it is likelier to be (2). That's what all this is about.; 3/1/11, 12:29 PM
MadisonMan said...: (1) Cut staff

In Madison, I would say Cut Administration. The building on Dayton Street? Why so full?; 3/1/11, 12:32 PM
SPImmortal said...: So the people do not want the unions busted, they don't want their lavish benefits cut at all and don't want tax increases. Can you say that most people are living in LA-LA land?

------

It's worse than that. There are a lot of idiots like garage mahal that won't even admit there's even a problem.

We're teetering on the edge and the left either doesn't care or won't acknowledge the situation because they don't want to be wrong.; 3/1/11, 12:33 PM
MayBee said...: In Madison, I would say Cut Administration. The building on Dayton Street? Why so full?

Probably needed to keep up with ever-increasing federal regulations and paperwork involved in getting funds from "Race to the Top".

Speaking of bloated school administration...what do you think of the Department of Education, MadMan?; 3/1/11, 12:35 PM
MadisonMan said...: Dept of Education: I've said many times it should be axed.; 3/1/11, 12:37 PM
Anonymous said...: It's worse than that. There are a lot of idiots like garage mahal that won't even admit there's even a problem.

Seems like a misstatement. garbage clearly has some skin in the game.

He won't tell us, however, about what kind of scam he has going on.

From the hysteria of his posts, I suspect that he feels like his wallet is about to get thinner.; 3/1/11, 12:38 PM
MayBee said...: Dept of Education: I've said many times it should be axed.

Thanks, I've not seen that before.

Between admin needed to deal with regulations, admin needed to deal with teacher's unions, and the whole union apparatus, that's a lot of money spent on "education" which isn't going to education.

I believe there would be more money for teachers and necessary administrators if those precious tax dollars weren't bearing such a heavy load of parasites.; 3/1/11, 12:42 PM
Michael said...: Garage: I urge you not to use cutsey spellings like "Dicktator". It is the beginning on an ugly trend. Next it will be Amerika. It immediately signals that whatever it is you are writing is nonsense even when it might not be. Do not succumb. As a fellow duck hunter and sportsman I give you this advice in as heartfelt and sincere fashion as I can.; 3/1/11, 12:43 PM
Sofa King said...: The building on Dayton Street? Why so full?

You have to admit, at least partly to deal with workplace rules and procedures established through collective bargaining.; 3/1/11, 12:43 PM
MadisonMan said...: So a judge has ordered the Capitol opened. And the police -- from what I've been told via facebook by friends down there -- are ignoring the Judge's order.

I'd be interested in hearing a justification for that refusal.; 3/1/11, 12:45 PM
garage mahal said...: It's worse than that. There are a lot of idiots like garage mahal that won't even admit there's even a problem.

The state has to balance it's budget, but when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children, I think that says alot about you as a person. Don't you think?; 3/1/11, 12:49 PM
Sofa King said...: The state has to balance it's budget, but when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children, I think that says alot about you as a person. Don't you think?

Exactly! It's not like taxes and fees have gone up by over a billion dollars in the past couple of years, and it's certainly not the case that the poor economy is hurting anybody else in any way!

Oh, wait, I forgot, you're an idiot.; 3/1/11, 12:51 PM
Rich B said...: I knew I remembered Dick Tater from the dim past-

http://www.undergroundcollectibles.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/8163/subcatid/0/id/104942

Everything old is new again. There is nothing new under the sun.; 3/1/11, 12:52 PM
Rich B said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/1/11, 12:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Well, garbage, since 54% of the Wisconsin budget goes to health care, education and social services, how in the hell can you balance the budget without reducing the costs in those sectors?

And if Wisconsin is like the rest of the country, costs have double in those sectors in the past decade.

What would be enough for those sectors? Do you foresee any limits ever being imposed?; 3/1/11, 12:57 PM
MadisonMan said...: The DOA claims that its policies align with the Judge's orders. In other words, we are delaying listening to the Judge.

Link; 3/1/11, 12:58 PM
Alex said...: What would be enough for those sectors? Do you foresee any limits ever being imposed?

Why not jack up tax rates on the wealthy and corporations? Say to 1980 levels?; 3/1/11, 12:58 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I'd be interested in hearing a justification for that refusal.

One possible justification is that the protesters are interfering with the ability of the people who work in the Capitol to be able to do their jobs.

If the public, and this includes all the union supporters as well as Tea Party or anyone else, were to be respectful, not litter, not trash up the place with signs, have some decorum.....there would probably be no issue with them in the Capitol or in the Gallery during working hours.

They are not. They are loud, dirty, littering pigs, who want to yell, chant, play drums, dance in circles, indulge their hippie dippy fantasy and they are interfering with business.

Just because they do not agree with the business of the legistators who were elected by a majority of voters doesn't give them the right to subvert the governmental process. They are creating a disturbance and a possible dangerous atmosphere.

Boot them out until they can act like responsible adults.; 3/1/11, 12:58 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: The DOA claims that its policies align with the Judge's orders. In other words, we are delaying listening to the Judge.

Wow. Just like Obama and Judge Vinson.

LOL.; 3/1/11, 1:00 PM
Anonymous said...: In fact, garbage, there is a book on this subject:

Never Enough: America's Limitless Welfare State.

Jacking up corporate tax rates will accomplish nothing but to drive up the cost of consumer products, and depress the economy.; 3/1/11, 1:01 PM
Anonymous said...: but when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children, I think that says alot about you as a person.

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong.
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I've finished this song?; 3/1/11, 1:02 PM
MadisonMan said...: If you read the Constitution, Dust Bunny Queen, you will see that the unfettered right to enter the Capitol is not restricted based on anything you suggest.; 3/1/11, 1:02 PM
cubanbob said...: garage mahal said...
It's worse than that. There are a lot of idiots like garage mahal that won't even admit there's even a problem.

The state has to balance it's budget, but when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children, I think that says alot about you as a person. Don't you think?

3/1/11 12:49 PM

It says nothing since the taxpayers (apparently you do not seem to be one) are already paying. It's the public sector parasites that need to be more giving, don't you think? Why is cutting their salary and benefits more immoral than raising some one else's taxes?; 3/1/11, 1:09 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I think the "hard core" concept may simply mean these are the people who have endured and not left after it became impossible to leave and then come back. They really are dedicated people and the interest in their holding on heroically at this point is, I'm sure, well understood by them.

I don’t know Professor. “The 50” at Madison doesn’t have the same ring as the The 300 at Thermopolye.; 3/1/11, 1:09 PM
I'm a Shaaaaark said...: The state has to balance it's budget, but when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children, I think that says alot about you as a person. Don't you think?

Ummm... Wow. I was gonna make a joke how public workers ARE the disabled and children, but instead I'll just not do that in the interests of 'civility' and say that you're full of shit instead.

The Public Union Employees would gladly sell out the 'disabled, elderly, and children' if it means they don't have to contribute anything to their own health care benefits and pensions.; 3/1/11, 1:10 PM
Alex said...: It's the public sector parasites that need to be more giving, don't you think?

Teachers, firemen, police officers, road workers all are parasites in the teabagger world. How lovely.; 3/1/11, 1:14 PM
SPImmortal said...: The state has to balance it's budget, but when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children, I think that says alot about you as a person. Don't you think?

---------

No, it says those are the people that receive government money and when expenditures have gotten to the point where they outstrip revenues, those are the people that will receive less.

My state spends far less per resident than Wisconsin and our elerly, disabled and children are making out just fine, so spare me the lame sanctimony.

This isn't about disatvantaged people this is about power politics and patronage, the worst form of corruption. It's destroying governments the world over and we have to tackle it head on.; 3/1/11, 1:15 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: If you read the Constitution, Dust Bunny Queen, you will see that the unfettered right to enter the Capitol is not restricted based on anything you suggest

Wisconsin doesn't have any 'public nuisance' laws?

"The law of nuisance was created to stop such bothersome activities or conduct when they unreasonably interfered either with the rights of other private landowners (i.e., private nuisance) or with the rights of the general public (i.e., public nuisance)

A public nuisance is an unreasonable interference with the public's right to property. It includes conduct that interferes with public health, safety, peace or convenience. The unreasonableness may be evidenced by statute, or by the nature of the act, including how long, and how bad, the effects of the activity may be."

I would think that having these people plug up the Capitol and restricting access to others who would like to view the building (without it being plastered with grafitti and signs and having to step over bodies of vagrants sleeping on the floors and doing God knows what in the bathrooms) in a peaceful atmosphere would constitute a public nuisance.

They are interfering with the rest of the public's right to enjoyment of the public building and with the ability of the people who work in the building to do their jobs.; 3/1/11, 1:17 PM
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...: If you read the Constitution, Dust Bunny Queen, you will see that the unfettered right to enter the Capitol is not restricted based on anything you suggest.

Isn't it strange how a constitution can say different things to different people? I wonder how many lawyers would be laid off if all constitutional issues were self evident.; 3/1/11, 1:18 PM
MadisonMan said...: I would think that having these people plug up the Capitol and restricting access to others who would like to view the building (without it being plastered with grafitti and signs and having to step over bodies of vagrants sleeping on the floors and doing God knows what in the bathrooms) in a peaceful atmosphere would constitute a public nuisance.

And yet no one has been arrested for such a thing. But keep on thinking that they should be, I guess.

Very wide latitude should be granted to anyone protesting against the Government. Letting people stay overnight in the Capitol was not necessarily a decision I would have made. As I said yesterday, I'm not sure why that decision was made, other than inertia-based, as in We were here last night so why can't we be here tonight when Last Night there were hearings and tonight there weren't. I've no issue with saying Leave and Come Back Later. But if Come Back Later becomes You can't come in at all, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the people issuing orders to those guarding the entrance to the Capitol. And if they read the State Consitution, they'll see what's wrong.; 3/1/11, 1:22 PM
SPImmortal said...: Teachers, firemen, police officers, road workers all are parasites in the teabagger world. How lovely.

----------

When they unionize they are. Set up labrynthine procedures so that underperformers and bad apples cannot be disciplined or fired...Negotiate salaries and benefits with captive politicians...

Public pensions at all levels are underfunded to the tune of trillions of dollars. That came about because of the unions incestuous relationship with those the were supposedly "negotiating" with, and their inability to see reality or consider the general welfare, or even their own welfare.

You dont' have to be against teachers or firefighters to want to end this parasitic relationship.; 3/1/11, 1:23 PM
Chennaul said...: MadisonMan-

That's a bit of a leap, no actually close to an untruth to present it as a judge found it "unconstitutional".

While it very well might be unconstitutional here is more from your link:

A Dane County judge has ordered Wisconsin officials to open the Capitol to all members of the public during normal business hours.

According to court records, Judge Daniel Moeser has issued a temporary restraining order to reopen the Capitol until a trial court can schedule a hearing. The order says the building must be open to the public during business hours and when "governmental matters, such as hearings, listening sessions, or court arguments are being conducted."

And I think even you agreed last night that they shouldn't have a right to sleep overnight in the Capitol.

Again it is most likely his opinion that it is unconstitutional. It's not a finding or decision.; 3/1/11, 1:25 PM
MadisonMan said...: Bushman: Section 4: The right of the people peaceably to assemble, to consult for the common good, and to petition the government, or any department thereof, shall never be abridged.; 3/1/11, 1:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Teachers, firemen, police officers, road workers all are parasites in the teabagger world. How lovely.

At this point, I'm inclined to think primarily teachers.

Although I may add road workers, too. True story: A friend of mine had a summer job about 20 years back with KYDOT. Early one morning he and five other guys piled into two dump trucks, left the shed and drove 60 miles to their worksite for the day, only to discover they had forgotten their shovels.

When they radioed back to the shed to tell the boss what had happened, he radioed back “Well, we’ll send out a truck with the shovels. Should be there in about an hour. In the meantime, you can just lean on each other and do nothing.”; 3/1/11, 1:25 PM
Chip Ahoy said...: NYTNY, no clicky. I know exactly which photo you refer to, or I think I do. Saw it earlier today and it damaged my eyes irreparably.; 3/1/11, 1:30 PM
KCFleming said...: "Teachers, firemen, police officers, road workers all are parasites in the teabagger world. How lovely."

Well, let's instead say they are all saints, deserving of our last dime and then some.

Why aren't we paying them each $1M a year? Why not $5M?

Is it because you hate them that you refuse to pay them this amount for those who sacrifice so much?

Or is it possible that the current pay and benefits are in fact unsustainable?; 3/1/11, 1:30 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: But if Come Back Later becomes You can't come in at all, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the people issuing orders to those guarding the entrance to the Capitol. And if they read the State Consitution, they'll see what's wrong.

To shut people out of the public buildings during open hours, for no reason, would be wrong.

However, when those people are becoming a public nuisance, creating disturbance and basically camping out for weeks with no end in sight, the Government needs to do something.

Public buildings should be open to the public, however, they are not meant to become semi-permanent residences for people who by their very presence deny the access and enjoyment of the public buildings to others.

The Tea Party should try to occupy the buildings and sit around for days on end....lets see how long that would work. Double standard anyone??? Or they should sue for the protesters being a public nuisance.; 3/1/11, 1:30 PM
shiloh said...: but instead I'll just not do that in the interests of 'civility' and say that you're full of shit instead.

ok, that made me laugh ...; 3/1/11, 1:33 PM
mtrobertsattorney said...: Can somebody please explain 1) why it is a good idea for the State of Wisconsin to collect union dues from public employee union members (by deducting dues from their paychecks) and then pay them back over to the union, and 2) what this practice has to do with collective bargaining?; 3/1/11, 1:33 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: The state has to balance it's budget, but when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children, I think that says alot about you as a person.

Well in Indiana, K-12 and higher ed, Medicaid and Health & Social Services accounts for 87% of the state budget. Not sure where Wisconsin compares in appropriations but it would appear you either cut benefits or you raise taxes.; 3/1/11, 1:34 PM
I'm a Shaaaaark said...: ok, that made me laugh ...

Glad someone got it :D; 3/1/11, 1:36 PM
MadisonMan said...: The Tea Party should try to occupy the buildings and sit around for days on end....lets see how long that would work.

I am not saying people should be able to camp out. There is a world of difference between that and between prohibiting entrance altogether, which is apparently what is happening now.

And if you are in the Capitol, and know you won't be let back in -- to do something that appears to be guaranteed in the State Constitution -- what incentive do you have to leave?

Two things should happen: (1) The DOA should proclaim that everyone is free to enter the Capitol during normal working hours or when hearings are ongoing. (2) The Capitol should actually close when Government isn't in session (and when it's not normal working hours) and people should not be in there.; 3/1/11, 1:38 PM
Chennaul said...: My dream house would have sliding bookcases and secret staircases all over the place.

That would be damn cool.

Anyways, I wonder if you could make the argument that the missing Badger 14 are breaking the constitution of WI because they are in effect causing this:

Neither house shall, without consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days.

That's probably a bit of a stretch.; 3/1/11, 1:41 PM
test said...: "MadisonMan said...

If you read the Constitution, Dust Bunny Queen, you will see that the unfettered right to enter the Capitol is not restricted based on anything you suggest."

The US constitution doesn't list the limitations of the freedoms guaranteed therein either. Nevertheless each of those guaranteed rights have limits generally accepted and routinely enforced.; 3/1/11, 1:44 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Two things should happen: (1) The DOA should proclaim that everyone is free to enter the Capitol during normal working hours or when hearings are ongoing. (2) The Capitol should actually close when Government isn't in session (and when it's not normal working hours) and people should not be in there.

Those are reasonable.

You should also add that they can carry and display signs, but not plaster the whole damned place with them and deface the people's buildings.

They can't sleep, camp out, make food on the floor or otherwise 'occupy' the space.

They must maintain decorum and respect for other people who want to also access the area. Meaning...no retarded drum circles. No sustained loud chanting that interferes with other people being able to hear the legislators.

If the people who are protesting would act like respectful, responsible adults, there would be no problem. They aren't and they don't.

Public access doesn't mean you get to do anything you want.; 3/1/11, 1:45 PM
Chennaul said...: Can somebody please explain 1) why it is a good idea for the State of Wisconsin to collect union dues from public employee union members (by deducting dues from their paychecks) and then pay them back over to the union.

Add to that-for the union; which is a non-government entity.

That freaks me out. On top of the obvious -confiscation-the State doing the union's dirty work-isn't that also saving the union certain mundane "costs"-book keeping etc.

Why should the state be doing that job for free?; 3/1/11, 1:47 PM
vnjagvet said...: Here's a pretty accurate summary of current law from firstamendmentcenter.org:

In sum, there is no unfettered right to protest on government property. Protests must be peaceable, and the government has the right to impose content-neutral, reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on expression. Furthermore, as the Supreme Court said in Kokinda, “the government’s ownership of property does not automatically open that property to the public.”

The government has greater power to regulate expression when it acts as a proprietor controlling its internal operations than it does as a sovereign lawmaker. This means that government officials could limit protests inside a courthouse because the government has important operations to conduct. It must be able to control its operations to carry out its functions. The government must be able to carry on its own speech and expression free from interference.; 3/1/11, 1:48 PM
test said...: "Two things should happen: (1) The DOA should proclaim that everyone is free to enter the Capitol during normal working hours or when hearings are ongoing. (2) The Capitol should actually close when Government isn't in session (and when it's not normal working hours) and people should not be in there."

You need to add one:

Anyone interfering with the normal course of business should be ejected, and repeat violators arrested.; 3/1/11, 1:48 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: While I am generally supportive of worker's rights, my five years of working alongside union workers at US Steel and Bethlehem as an outside contractor tainted my once rosier view of unions. I can't say that I am in favor of public sector unions that can collectively bargain wages and benefits at my expense.; 3/1/11, 1:52 PM
Chennaul said...: MadisonMan you posted this:

Section 4: The right of the people peaceably to assemble, to consult for the common good, and to petition the government, or any department thereof, shall never be abridged.

I think you could maybe make the argument that the missing Badger 14 are breaking the constitution in that section.

How can their constituents petition the government if their representatives are hiding out of state?; 3/1/11, 1:58 PM
Alex said...: Section 4: The right of the people peaceably to assemble, to consult for the common good, and to petition the government, or any department thereof, shall never be abridged.

Does that include camping out 24/7 with stoves, sleeping bags? The capitol is not their residence.; 3/1/11, 1:59 PM
MadisonMan said...: I think you could maybe make the argument that the missing Badger 14 are breaking the constitution in that section.

True. I emailed Fred Risser over the weekend suggesting he return.

Poor old man! Can his creaky old bones take a life on the lam?; 3/1/11, 2:00 PM
Chennaul said...: Hoosier Daddy-

Ya I've been trying to measure your reaction....

There is a world of difference between public sector and private sector unions.

Althouse rips Tim Noah a new one in the bloggingheads video over that.; 3/1/11, 2:00 PM
Martin L. Shoemaker said...: vnjagvet, I think that's a discussion of federal rules, though. The Wisconsin state rules (as Madison Man has pointed out) appear to allow protesters more latitude.; 3/1/11, 2:02 PM
Chennaul said...: MadisonMan

Poor old man! Can his creaky old bones take a life on the lam?

LOL!

Dude I've been trying to read you-I think they got you for awhile when your daughter came home... well you remember the story.

Damn those teachers I hate when they get you by the kid...; 3/1/11, 2:04 PM
Calypso Facto said...: I am not saying people should be able to camp out. There is a world of difference between that and between prohibiting entrance

I agree, but when the protesters have refused to abide by the existing limits on time of occupancy and order to vacate in HOPES of causing an eviction and arrest media spectacle, I think a temporary restriction on entry is entirely reasonable.; 3/1/11, 2:04 PM
TosaGuy said...: "Section 4: The right of the people peaceably to assemble, to consult for the common good, and to petition the government, or any department thereof, shall never be abridged."

None of those things require a crock pot or a yoga mat.; 3/1/11, 2:06 PM
Alex said...: I agree, but when the protesters have refused to abide by the existing limits on time of occupancy and order to vacate in HOPES of causing an eviction and arrest media spectacle, I think a temporary restriction on entry is entirely reasonable.

Let's say we get a mass arrest spectacle - who does that play WELL with? Do you honestly thing Joe Blow Swing Voter is going to look at that and say "hey! damn you Republicans for evicting those righteous pro-union people!".; 3/1/11, 2:07 PM
former law student said...: Actually....no. There is no proposal to CUT benefits. (Be honest MM). There is the proposal to have the recipients contribute more towards their benefits.

What happened to the dust bunny queen who told me the opposite was true, that the government's contribution to their benefits was part of their compensation, and therefore the employees would merely be cutting their take-home pay?

"Apparently FLS does not know that salary is only part of total compensation. "

Unless you know different, it's the only one that works at the grocery store, or that a prospective landlord would care about when the teacher is trying to rent a room with a bath.

When you are a tax payer supported worker and get free pension contributions and untaxed insurance premiums paid on your behalf, not only do you have MORE money to spend at the grocery store than the other poor folk who have to pay for their own benefits....you don't have to pay taxes on the benefits either.

...

On the other hand.....the teacher or other government functionary who earns 50K ....GETS an additional $17,900 added tax free to their income.

Effectively making their compensation closer to 70K.; 3/1/11, 2:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Sorry about that Chip, you have to copy and paste as my HTML skills are prehistoric.

http://bit.ly/eu8UhL

The agony of DeFeet.; 3/1/11, 2:10 PM
TosaGuy said...: Ann,

You need to donate your stuff on this to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

wv: presse; 3/1/11, 2:10 PM
vnjagvet said...: MM:

You are right that it is federal first amendment law.I would be very surprised, however, if Wisconsin law did not allow the government to regulate content-neutral, reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on expression. I don't think the WI constitutional provision you cite obviates time place and manner restrictions so long as they are uniformly applied to those expressing all viewpoints.; 3/1/11, 2:12 PM
retire05 said...: Ann, here is a question for you;

from the Wisconsin Capitol website:

"Its open to the public on weekdays from 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m and on weekends and holidays from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m."

Did the judge not just give Walker a way to remove the dirty footed hippies from the Capitol building since the judge said that it should be open to the public during business hours and those business hours were posted long before the hippies decided to squat there?; 3/1/11, 2:13 PM
vnjagvet said...: Martin Shoemaker:

My last comment was to both MM and you.; 3/1/11, 2:15 PM
garage mahal said...: The Public Union Employees would gladly sell out the 'disabled, elderly, and children' if it means they don't have to contribute anything to their own health care benefits and pensions

They contribute to their healthcare, and 100% towards their pensions you idiot. It comes out of their wages, taxpayers pay almost nothing.; 3/1/11, 2:15 PM
former law student said...: Public pensions at all levels are underfunded to the tune of trillions of dollars. That came about because of the unions incestuous relationship with those the were supposedly "negotiating" with, and their inability to see reality or consider the general welfare, or even their own welfare.

Not true in Wisconsin*, though, and thus irrelevant.

*That's what the unions claim. If the professor knows that her pension is shaky, I hope she will mention it.; 3/1/11, 2:15 PM
Chennaul said...: None of those things require a crock pot or a yoga mat.

Ya, but I think it requires a drum circle.

That's in there some where.; 3/1/11, 2:17 PM
Anonymous said...: "...taxpayers pay almost nothing."

LOL, this is funny all by itself!; 3/1/11, 2:17 PM
Sofa King said...: It comes out of their wages, taxpayers pay almost nothing.

And where do the wages come from, silly?; 3/1/11, 2:18 PM
MadisonMan said...: *That's what the unions claim. If the professor knows that her pension is shaky, I hope she will mention it.

Wisconsin is one of 4 states that have fully covered Pension funds. (As of 2008 -- later data not yet available, I guess).

I would be surprised if WI's obligations were not still covered, given market performance of late.; 3/1/11, 2:18 PM
Kevin said...: Anyone interfering with the normal course of business should be ejected, and repeat violators arrested.

What!?! My First Amendment rights include my drum set, my amplification equipment, and my air horn!; 3/1/11, 2:20 PM
Henry said...: @FLS --

If I pay $25K out-of-pocket for health care and retirement investments (luckily both pre-tax), how does my take-home pay look then?

It's funny. When the union defenders want to talk about how poor public sector workers are, they talk about take-home pay and pretend the benefits don't exist.

When critics ask why taxpayers are paying for generous benefits, union defenders proclaim that the union negotiated for those benefits as one aspect of their total compensation and you can't treat them as a separate line item.

So what do you want? Benefits that don't count or benefits that are inviolate?; 3/1/11, 2:24 PM
Henry said...: @garage -- My comment goes to you too.

You want to talk total compensation, then let's talk total compensation and stop playing games.; 3/1/11, 2:26 PM
garage mahal said...: And where do the wages come from, silly?

They work for the taxpayer, the taxpayer pays them to put out fires, plow roads, wipe your ass when you're in the hospital, etc etc etc; 3/1/11, 2:27 PM
former law student said...: Henry -- you and the public employee are in the same boat. You each cost your employer a certain sum of money, which is divided up and distributed on your behalf.; 3/1/11, 2:32 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: They contribute to their healthcare, and 100% towards their pensions you idiot. It comes out of their wages, taxpayers pay almost nothing.

Wrong on all counts.

1. The taxpayers pay their wages

2. The State/taxpayers contribute 100% the employer portion of the pension (about 6% of wages in Wisconsin I believe)

3. The workers contribute some small portion of their wages.....which are paid to them by the taxpayers...towards their health insurance premiums and pension contributions.

4. The taxpayers "Pick UP" the rest of the amounts that the employees do not contribute to the benefit package.

The tax payers are footing almost 100% of the benefit packages and 100% of the wages. Do you think money grows on trees? Where do you think the government GETS its money?

and to FLS (Too Stupid to Help) the benefit packages are not being cut. Their wages/pay are not being cut (at this time). They are just being asked to contribute some of their wages towards the benefits.

Their compensation package remains the same. However, their take home amount/cash flow will be a bit less.

Boo freaking hoo.; 3/1/11, 2:32 PM
Calypso Facto said...: garage: I understand the argument that retirement contributions are part of total negotiated compensation, but as to who actually PAYS FOR those retirement benefits, Exhibit A3 of the Wisconsin Annual Fiscal Report (Budgetary Basis) makes it pretty clear that contributions to the public employee pension fund are made by the State of Wisconsin (to the tune of $5.7 billion last year) with money from the general fund of revenues collected through taxes. I.e., TAXPAYERS make the pension payments.; 3/1/11, 2:33 PM
SPImmortal said...: They work for the taxpayer, the taxpayer pays them to put out fires, plow roads, wipe your ass when you're in the hospital, etc etc etc

-------

You claimed that taxpayers pay almost nothing and yet here you admit taxpayers pay everything.

Good work on reversing yourself. It's always refreshing to see someone admit when they're wrong.; 3/1/11, 2:34 PM
Henry said...: @FLS -- Exactly. The answer is total compensation.; 3/1/11, 2:34 PM
Anonymous said...: They work for the taxpayer, the taxpayer pays them to put out fires, plow roads, wipe your ass when you're in the hospital, etc etc etc

Bravo! Correct. So don't get all pissy when the taxpayer tells your services are no longer worth the price they're paying, mmmmkay?; 3/1/11, 2:35 PM
Anonymous said...: Wisconsin is one of 4 states that have fully covered Pension funds.

This is in no small part due to the fact that the pension funds have invested in Georgia Pacific.

Thanks, Koch Brothers!; 3/1/11, 2:37 PM
Anonymous said...: "The employee contribution rate for
general employees for 2006 is 5%. However, for the reasons discussed above, in practice, almost all contributions to the WRS are paid by employers. The employer contribution rate for 2006 was 4.5%, plus an additional .9% benefit adjustment contribution credited to the employer
accumulation account."

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lc/publications/crs/2006_retirement.pdf.; 3/1/11, 2:41 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Garage/ Garbage does not get it.

In 8 years since 2003, WI state spending grew by 77%, state debt grew by 41% while state GDP grew by only 33%. What part of this unsustainable govt growth do libruls not understand?; 3/1/11, 2:41 PM
test said...: "garage mahal said...

The Public Union Employees would gladly sell out the 'disabled, elderly, and children' if it means they don't have to contribute anything to their own health care benefits and pensions

They contribute to their healthcare, and 100% towards their pensions you idiot. It comes out of their wages, taxpayers pay almost nothing.

3/1/11 2:15 PM"

The disturbing takeaway from this comment is not that leftists apparently don't realize taxpayers pay public employees wages. It's far more disturbing that someone incapable of understanding the most basic concepts has nevertheless received such positive reinforcement from our education system he feels others need to catch up to him.

It's more evidence that our education system rewards people who parrot the lefty party line whether or not they are capable of independent thought.; 3/1/11, 2:43 PM
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...: Section 4: The right of the people peaceably to assemble, to consult for the common good, and to petition the government, or any department thereof, shall never be abridged.

Madman, I understand your interpretation.

It's strange how some have stated that access should be limited to normal business hours. I don't see this in the constitution. Anyway, if we are strict constructionists now, access should be allowed for everyone at anytime. We shouldn't have to wait long to see how well this works out.; 3/1/11, 2:45 PM
Revenant said...: Teachers, firemen, police officers, road workers all are parasites in the teabagger world.

It says a lot that teachers can't be defended in their own right.

"Teachers are parasites in the teabagger world" doesn't cut it. It is necessary to throw in firemen and police -- people that most of the public actually still think are doing a good job.; 3/1/11, 2:46 PM
garage mahal said...: The disturbing takeaway from this comment is not that leftists apparently don't realize taxpayers pay public employees wages.

I realize. No shit Sherlock! Got any other mind blowing revelations for us?; 3/1/11, 2:46 PM
Henry said...: Wait a minute. Wisconsin employees get a match? Oh man, I remember getting a match once. 15 years ago.

Another part of total compensation.

Holy moly, this isn't really that hard. If you get something own up to it. Don't play poor pitiful me when your elective deferral plan -- the one that rides on top of the 10% the states pays into your pension -- has a match.; 3/1/11, 2:47 PM
MadisonMan said...: Anyway, if we are strict constructionists now, access should be allowed for everyone at anytime.

If that and was an or I'd agree with you.; 3/1/11, 2:48 PM
MadisonMan said...: (Um, the and in the Constitution Article I quoted, that is); 3/1/11, 2:48 PM
former law student said...: However, their take home amount/cash flow will be a bit less.

Boo freaking hoo.

If you can't afford Whole Foods you can shop at Trader Joe's, but if you can't afford Trader Joe's there's always Aldi's, I suppose.; 3/1/11, 2:49 PM
wdnelson93 said...: Paul at 1:02 I've gotten a lot of laughs from this blog - this was one of the best. Where would we be without garage to bring out the best in everyone?

shiloh - glad to see you still have your sense of humor. I laughed at that one too.

MM - re: Fred Risser - bless his old bones. I'm sure between the nat'l Dems and the Unions they're all being well taken care of. "Former Vermont Governor and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, a one-time presidential candidate, is the founder of a group that by mid-day of President's Day had raised over $100,000 in a slush fund to "back" the on-the-lam Wisconsin Democratic State Senators."

Quote above from this article:

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/02/22/howard-dean-and-the-100000-wis

My sister, who's been phoning in pizza orders (bless her heart ;) from CO to the protesters has no doubt contributed to similar funds to keep the hookey-playing 14 comfortable where-ever their home-away-from-home may be. Maybe I should send her the link to the aforementioned picture. Looks like she could save her $.; 3/1/11, 2:50 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Teachers, firemen, police officers, road workers all are parasites in the teabagger world

Most government workers occupations, with the possible exception of police and fire personnel, can easily be outsourced to private companies at GREAT savings to the taxpayer and with the increased efficiency that comes from competitive bidding in the free marketplace.

Fire them all and outsource the jobs to the private sector.; 3/1/11, 2:51 PM
former law student said...: It is necessary to throw in firemen and police -- people that most of the public actually still think are doing a good job.

Eighty percent of the time, the firemen near my house are just hanging around waiting for something to happen: shooting hoops, playing cards, watching TV. Once a week they wash the trucks; 3/1/11, 2:52 PM
alan markus said...: @ 11:32: Here's a clickable link to that photo. Meade should have captured that!

Wisconsin Protester Photo Of The Day

I'm going with homeless guy (albeit well-fed) on this one.; 3/1/11, 2:53 PM
John henry said...: Assume for the moment that the protesters have the right to be in the capital building outside of normal business hours. I don't think they do (or should) but let's pretend.

Would it be out of bounds to insist that they behave themselves? ie; No lying on the floor, no chanting, drumming etc, no taping up posters.

As soon as someone sits or lies on the floor, make them stand up again. If noisy tell them to keep quiet and so on.

If they do not abide by normal public space behavior, throw them out.

If all they do is stand around and chat quietly amongst themselves, the problem would go away fairly quickly.

John Henry; 3/1/11, 2:53 PM
MadisonMan said...: Assume for the moment that the protesters have the right to be in the capital building outside of normal business hours. I don't think they do (or should) but let's pretend.

I don't know of anyone in this thread who is suggesting that they do have that right.

You might as well have started your comment with Assume for the moment that it will be 80 degrees in Madison tomorrow...; 3/1/11, 2:56 PM
Chennaul said...: Bushman

Well there is a reference to this decision in the footnotes of Wisconsin's constitution:

The government’s substantial interest in maintaining the park in the heart of the capital in an attractive condition sustained a regulation against camping or over- night sleeping in public parks. Free speech was not denied. Clark v. Community for Creative Non−violence, 468 U.S. 288 (1984).

Now if the finding was against over night sleeping in the parks around the capital how the hell that wouldn't apply to the Capitol building is beyond common sense-although common sense and the law have been known to diverge.; 3/1/11, 2:59 PM
KCFleming said...: No one, not garage, not fls, can tell me why, if our public servants are not overpaid but in fact are poorly compensated for their valuable work, why are we scrimping?

Why don't we pay all teachers, firemen, police officers, and road workers $1M per year? Why not $5M?

Why won't they answer?

Because the response contains the truth as to why their current demands are being opposed.

Or they have to admit their answer is It's never enough. There is no sufficient take from the taxpayers. There's always more to extract.; 3/1/11, 3:06 PM
test said...: Garage #1:

They contribute to their healthcare, and 100% towards their pensions you idiot. It comes out of their wages, taxpayers pay almost nothing.

Garage #2:

I realize.

When the voices speak I recommend listening to only one voice at a time. But there are still risks. Maybe it would be better for you not to post at all.; 3/1/11, 3:07 PM
lemondog said...: Section 4: The right of the people peaceably to assemble, to consult for the common good, and to petition the government, or any department thereof, shall never be abridged.

Isn't the common good the Wisconsin taxpayer? How is this self-interested group consulting for the general taxpayer population? Was that group appointed by that taxpayer population to petition the government on its behalf for....?; 3/1/11, 3:11 PM
Scott M said...: Eighty percent of the time, the firemen near my house are just hanging around waiting for something to happen: shooting hoops, playing cards, watching TV. Once a week they wash the trucks

My son's daycare provider's husband is a pro fireman. What you describe above would be a very busy week for them by his own admission.; 3/1/11, 3:14 PM
Triangle Man said...: The tax payers are footing almost 100% of the benefit packages and 100% of the wages. Do you think money grows on trees? Where do you think the government GETS its money?

Oh my God! The employer is paying 100% of the workers' compensation through salary and benefits? Outrageous! Why, we could save millions by having employees provide a substantial percentage of their own compensation. I think you're on to something DBQ.

The change means now that 100% of employees' compensation will still be paid by the employer, but the total amount for each worker will be reduced and the relative contributions to compensation will be shifted toward salary/wages and away from benefits.

It is true that 100% of public employee salary and benefits is paid by the State. It is not true that 100% of the cost of State employees is paid from tax revenue. However, it is true that 100% of State employees are taxpayers.; 3/1/11, 3:17 PM
former law student said...: pogo: why can't I get $1 million for my used Saturn?

As in any bargaining process, the teachers want to get as much as they can while the government wants to pay as little as they can. The auction ends around $40K, or 1/4 an Althouse (if commenters here can be believed).; 3/1/11, 3:17 PM
Carol_Herman said...: You know, I don't think you can get into a Disney park if you're not wearing shoes.

And, even if this information is NOT posted on the front door, when you walk into a court building, you can be challenged at the entryway, if you're wearing a thong bathing suit. And, no shoes.

I always thought court rooms had DECORUM rules. And, the judge can slap ya, even if you're sitting there, quietly reading a book.

The sheriff with the gun belt walks over.

By the way on the photo of the fat slob on the floor, I think you're looking at STATE POLICEMEN. These are NOT the men there beforehand, who were "very tolerant" of the protesters.

The other thing I notice? This is a LEGISLATIVE building. The judge can go ahead an "interpret" what he thinks the front door posts as "hours of operation." But it's the LEGISLATURE! And, the majority (now Republican) LEGISLATORS rule their own chamber.

You can even go back and look this one up in Marbury V. Madison.

Judges don't have armies they can send out to do any enforcement.

While the stage has been set for people to look. And, listen. I have no idea what the site meter shows, but I'd bet it's been trending (bouncing?) higher every day! And, for good measure, for some time to come.; 3/1/11, 3:20 PM
James said...: By the way on the photo of the fat slob on the floor, I think you're looking at STATE POLICEMEN. These are NOT the men there beforehand, who were "very tolerant" of the protesters.

No, they are sheriff's deputies.; 3/1/11, 3:25 PM
KCFleming said...: "As in any bargaining process"

What bargaining?
The unions demand, and the Democrat-run governments give.

Where did 'bargaining' come in?
'I ask, you comply' isn't any kind of negotiation I've ever heard of.

And it's an auction? Really? But only one bidder, right?; 3/1/11, 3:26 PM
Anonymous said...: If you can't afford Whole Foods you can shop at Trader Joe's, but if you can't afford Trader Joe's there's always Aldi's, I suppose.

And if they can't afford bread ... they can always eat cake!

As in any bargaining process, the teachers want to get as much as they can while the government wants to pay as little as they can. The auction ends around $40K, or 1/4 an Althouse (if commenters here can be believed).

That's the way it works for private enterprise, and that's how the Republicans want it to work now for the public sector. But historically, the Democrats in the legislature want the government to pay unionized public sector employees as much as they can, because then the Democrat politicians get those lovely, lovely campaign donation kickbacks from the unions (whether the individual union members who pay their dues support the Democratic Party or not).

wv: lessness

The public sector usions are going to have to deal with lessness.; 3/1/11, 3:28 PM
former law student said...: Where did 'bargaining' come in?
'I ask, you comply' isn't any kind of negotiation I've ever heard of.

Then why don't the unions ask for million dollar salaries? Answer your own question.; 3/1/11, 3:29 PM
KCFleming said...: So no real negotiation per se, just a discussion about what they believe they can get away with increasing (never decreasing) each year. Not based on any real consideration of income or ability to pay. Not based on any real economics at all, just a wish list.

There's no bargaining, except a discussion what a 3rd party can be forced to fund, and because the teachers and cops and firemen own a monopoly, the citizens can go screw if they themselves are too broke to pay up.; 3/1/11, 3:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Then why don't the unions ask for million dollar salaries? Answer your own question.

Because even unionized teachers know the old aphorism: Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

But either way, you know, still - pigs.; 3/1/11, 3:38 PM
SPImmortal said...: Where did 'bargaining' come in?
'I ask, you comply' isn't any kind of negotiation I've ever heard of.

Then why don't the unions ask for million dollar salaries? Answer your own question.

---------

Because they'd never get the money.

Non sequitur is non; 3/1/11, 3:38 PM
lemondog said...: By the way on the photo of the fat slob on the floor,..

Should have been busted for loitering....or littering.....or as loitering litter.....no?; 3/1/11, 4:29 PM
test said...: "former law student said...

As in any bargaining process, the teachers want to get as much as they can while the government wants to pay as little as they can."

If the bargaining with a union is the same as "any other" why is having one without the union a big deal?

No, we all know this is wrong, and so do the protesters. The only reason to be so outraged by a reduction in union power is that you know it translates to money.

Unfortunately, government does not want to pay as little as possible. Democrats in particular want to pay as much as possible without triggering a taxpayer backlash.; 3/1/11, 4:36 PM
former law student said...: By the way on the photo of the fat slob on the floor,..

Should have been busted for loitering....or littering.....or as loitering litter.....no?

We were meant to wash his feet, as Jesus would have (John 13).; 3/1/11, 4:37 PM
deborah said...: "Boo freaking hoo."

We're honored you stopped by Ms. Malkin :)

I think this is interesting, from Wiki on Wisconsin economy, the top ten employers in Wisconsin:

"1.Wal-Mart
2.University of Wisconsin–Madison
3.Milwaukee Public Schools
4.U.S. Postal Service
5.Wisconsin Department of Corrections
6.Menards
7.Marshfield Clinic
8.Aurora Health Care
9.City of Milwaukee"

Does anyone know if the either of the two medical ones are public sector?

Also, "In 2008 Wisconsin’s gross state product was $240.4 billion, making it 21st among U.S. states.[54] The per capita personal income was $35,239 in 2008. The economy of Wisconsin is driven by manufacturing, agriculture, and health care. Although manufacturing accounts for a far greater part of the state's income than farming, Wisconsin is often perceived as a farming state."
[my bold]; 3/1/11, 4:38 PM
former law student said...: If the bargaining with a union is the same as "any other" why is having one without the union a big deal?

The contract for my home school district spells out each sides' duties in minute detail -- 87 pages worth. How much would an attorney cost for each teacher to negotiate an 87 page deal?

Further, the school district is the "only game in town" for teachers. As such, they have far more bargaining strength than do individual teachers, whose only option is to move away.; 3/1/11, 4:43 PM
KCFleming said...: Both medical facilities are private.

Only on the surface, though, as over 60% of medical coverage is now governmental.; 3/1/11, 4:44 PM
KCFleming said...: "Further, the school district is the "only game in town" for teachers."

Logrolling.
Circle jerk.
Mutual admiration societies.
Corruption.; 3/1/11, 4:47 PM
former law student said...: deborah: You see the low productivity of medical care. Manufacturing had to get better or get out, so no factories of any size remain. Wal-Mart and the Post Office have high headcounts because they are ubiquitous. I wouldn't have thought there were that many Menards.; 3/1/11, 4:50 PM
Tim Wright said...: A random thought on this: A wonderful aqd for Wisconsin GOP would be interspersed montage of Gov. Walker speaking with video fo pro-union "drummer boys" to the tune of "I don't wanna work, I just wanna bang on the drum all day."

Tim W.; 3/1/11, 4:56 PM
test said...: "The contract for my home school district spells out each sides' duties in minute detail -- 87 pages worth. How much would an attorney cost for each teacher to negotiate an 87 page deal?"

Next to nothing, and far less than the unions extort. Private companies summarize their employment related polices in an employee handbook.

"Further, the school district is the "only game in town" for teachers."

This is false, there are many schools where teachers may apply. But we're getting closer to teachers' demands. They want to demand their job location without having to give anything in return. For the rest of us job location is a consideration.

Even were you accurate, the answer would be to allow the schools to compete against each other, not to respond to one monopoly with another.; 3/1/11, 5:06 PM
deborah said...: Thanks, Pogo.

fls, I was surprised that the Wiki section on the Wisconsin economy said that though Wisconsin is perceived as an agricultural state, it derives more money from industry. Do you know off-hand how much industry Wisconsin has lost?; 3/1/11, 6:04 PM
Revenant said...: How much would an attorney cost for each teacher to negotiate an 87 page deal?

The employer states what the contract is. The employee either signs it or works elsewhere.

That's how every job I've ever had worked. The only negotiation was over starting pay.; 3/1/11, 6:12 PM
Revenant said...: The United States has over 14,000 public school districts spread across 50 states and various territories. There are another 30,000 private schools on top of that.; 3/1/11, 6:17 PM
Revenant said...: when you only go after public workers, the disabled, the elderly, and children

It is amusing to hear people complain about "going after the elderly" and "going after government workers" only to have them turn around and complain that we aren't "going after the rich".

The elderly are the richest demographic group in America. Most public workers are paid more than private sector workers for the same work. Going after public workers and the elderly IS "going after the rich'.; 3/1/11, 6:20 PM
former law student said...: Most public workers are paid more than private sector workers for the same work.

A bold assertion which contradicts a lifetime of experience, in which government workers trade pay for security. Can you zero in on that statement a little?

Lawyers?
Doctors?
Police?
Firemen?
Correctional officers?
Garbage truck drivers?
Nurses?
College professors?

Where are the public/private comparisons?; 3/1/11, 6:52 PM
former law student said...: rev's answer to collective bargaining:

"Take it or leave it."; 3/1/11, 6:52 PM
former law student said...: Off hand:

Briggs & Stratton
Oshkosh b'Gosh
Janesville GM assembly
Uniroyal
Jamesway
Western Printing/Whitman Publishing
(Golden Books, jigsaw puzzles)
Polaris snowmobiles
Pabst
American Motors; 3/1/11, 7:27 PM
test said...: "A bold assertion which contradicts a lifetime of experience, in which government workers trade pay for security."

This is certainly the union talking point. Too bad it doesn't match reality.; 3/1/11, 7:36 PM
ken in tx said...: When I was in the Air Force, I had two jerk bosses. During 25 years. One of them was forced out by his alcoholism and one of them retired by age. The fact is that neither one of them was rewarded for their jerkiness . But they were allowed to control me and boss me around until they were kicked out.; 3/1/11, 7:52 PM
Michael said...: "A bold assertion which contradicts a lifetime of experience, in which government workers trade pay for security."

During the recession have govt jobs increased or decreased? During the recession has govt pay gone up or down?; 3/1/11, 8:09 PM
deborah said...: Thanks, fls.; 3/1/11, 8:32 PM
James said...: Wisconsin isn't even an industrial state anymore; it now has more state and federal employees than manufacturing employees.

Take a look at the December 2010 employment statistics published by the Department of Workforce Development: WI Jobs, Unemployment Numbers

If you go back to 2009 you will see that in most months, government employment exceeded manufacturing employment.

This development was discussed during the last election campaign and even PolitiFact Wisconsin grudgingly concluded that it was true: Wisconsin now has more government jobs than manufacturing jobs; 3/1/11, 9:21 PM
former law student said...: Wisconsin now has more government jobs than manufacturing jobs

Yes, American employers have been shipping manufacturing jobs to the Third World for over 30 years now. And, increasingly, research and development jobs have been following manufacturing. That's why everything for sale in stores -- except for some foodstuffs -- comes from a foreign country, generally China.

Because our leaders would rather we have access to cheap crap than for Americans to have good jobs at good wages.

Workers in the remaining industries are highly productive -- the American manufacturing workforce is second only to Denmark in productivity. This does not impress American capitalists, however.

So where are the jobs? Basically, wherever productivity is low:

1. Health care
2. Low level services, mostly retail.; 3/2/11, 12:52 AM
test said...: "Because our leaders would rather we have access to cheap crap than for Americans to have good jobs at good wages."

Once again we see the complete economic ignorance of the left.; 3/2/11, 6:02 AM