Althouse: New U.S. News law school ranking.

March 15, 2011

New U.S. News law school ranking.

Cry or jubilate. We're crying in Wisconsin.

65 comments:

vbspurs said...: University of Minnesota-Twin Falls Law School is #20? When in the hell did that happen?; 3/15/11, 2:19 PM
rhhardin said...: It's the swimsuit issue.; 3/15/11, 2:20 PM
Carol_Herman said...: A FEW QUESTIONS:

What's the spread between student abilities?

Does the textbooks chosen, matter?

In your own experience, do students abilities vary from year to year?

When was the last time you were asked to profer your credential? I know someone who went to Duke. But I only "learned it" post-Nifong.

Yup. I still think kids are being turned away at Admissions. And, colleges, it seems, aren't being asked to offer courses in plumbing. Not that "becoming a lawyer" is easy. It's just that dealing with broken toilets is still less appealing.; 3/15/11, 2:21 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Obviously you're not spending enough on professor salaries and benefits hence your crappy rankings.; 3/15/11, 2:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Well, the Illini can't beat the Badgers in Basketball and Football, but we can beat you at the law.; 3/15/11, 2:23 PM
vbspurs said...: University of Tennessee-Knoxville #56. Ouch.

Well, at least you have bragging rights over your confrere blogging buddy, Ann.; 3/15/11, 2:24 PM
rcocean said...: Wow, Princeton Law is rated rather low. Didn't Chris Matthews get his law degree there?; 3/15/11, 2:25 PM
vbspurs said...: Very last Law School listed (as unranked):

University of Puerto Rico- Rio Piedras, PR

Man, is it beat up on Puerto Ricans day on Althouse today!; 3/15/11, 2:27 PM
Ron said...: Clearly too many Madison lawprofs are too busy blogging...; 3/15/11, 2:31 PM
retire05 said...: Go, Longhorns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!; 3/15/11, 2:32 PM
PaulV said...: Even some of the state law schools are expensive now. UVA is in 40s. WI law is reasonable.
How bad is job market for grads now?; 3/15/11, 2:32 PM
The Drill SGT said...: You are 35.

You were 35 last year.

Correct?

Why cry in your beer?

You thought you found ways to raise your score, but you didn't finagle better than U Georgia, still tied with you at 35.

You need to hire the Dean from UC Davis (my undergrad).

They were tied with you at 35 last year and are now 23. Must be all those happy Cows at the Aggie Dairy :)

Drink less beer and more Chardonnay; 3/15/11, 2:32 PM
vbspurs said...: Even some of the state law schools are expensive now. UVA is in 40s.

That's incredible. Truly, I'm not in favour of curtailing the free market system in the least, but asking students to pay that much for private education is ridiculous.; 3/15/11, 2:36 PM
Trooper York said...: It's always beat up on Puerto Ricans day here. They only have one thing going for them.

They ain't Dominicans.; 3/15/11, 2:39 PM
Trooper York said...: That one was for you Lem.; 3/15/11, 2:40 PM
Issob Morocco said...: Consider the source, and the Law School Bubble burst Glenn Reynolds has been forecasting.

Then drink some Spring Ale!!; 3/15/11, 2:42 PM
retire05 said...: UT-Austin is #14 with a 30% minority student body. No mention of the minority percentages in Wisconsin. Maybe that's because the 4% black student population in Wisconsin only have a 49% graduation rate.

Also, starting employment salary for UTA students is $160K/yr, same as Yale.; 3/15/11, 2:42 PM
Peter Hoh said...: What was the ranking last year?; 3/15/11, 2:48 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Above the Law: "Among the biggest fallers among the top 50: Emory, Colorado, Georgia and Wisconsin."; 3/15/11, 2:50 PM
Trooper York said...: Obviously the professors at Wisconsin are not doing enough blogging. Just sayn'; 3/15/11, 2:51 PM
The Drill SGT said...: My apologies Althouse.
I was comparing your 2010 35, with your 2012 35, not understanding that what I thought was last year,was 2010. my bad.

you guys stayed with Georgia and went to 28 last year and fell back, while Davis kept climbing :)

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/the-u-s-news-law-school-rankings-are-out/#more-62819; 3/15/11, 2:59 PM
The Drill SGT said...: Trooper, You sound like Callahan, not Yorke.

That's one thing about our Harry. Doesn't play any favorites. Harry hates everybody; 3/15/11, 3:05 PM
MarkW said...: Even some of the state law schools are expensive now. UVA is in 40s.

I don't know tuition at Michigan is, but I'm sure it's high also. The main reason for that is the law school (unlike the university as whole) is effectively a private institution (no state funding for law school operating expenses) and has been for quite a while.; 3/15/11, 3:09 PM
SteveR said...: Also, starting employment salary for UTA students is $160K/yr, same as Yale.

The University of Texas at Austin is "UT","UTA" is The University of Texas at Arlington. just sayin; 3/15/11, 3:17 PM
Anonymous said...: The most depressing stat is the full-time enrollment. This nation can't absorb any more lawyers but the L-schools keep churning them out.; 3/15/11, 3:27 PM
Corre∫pondence Committee said...: VERY OT, sorry, but I just saw video of Susan Sarandon interviewed after speaking to protesters in Madison. The other day in the "Protest Couples" thread, I thought the first woman looked like Susan Sarandon, but Althouse didn't identify her. Is that who it was?; 3/15/11, 3:52 PM
Anonymous said...: OT:
That popping noise is dem heads exploding.
"Wisconsin Dems Who Hid Out
In Illinois Can't Vote"; 3/15/11, 3:53 PM
Col Mustard said...: Does America need this many lawyers?

Do universities consider law school tuition a 'cash cow'?; 3/15/11, 3:54 PM
retire05 said...: Steve, I shortened UT-Austin to UT-A for expediency, not because I didn't know the difference.

UT-Arlington doesn't have a law school.

Just sayin'..................; 3/15/11, 3:55 PM
deborah said...: I don't think so, Rit. I thought the woman looked like an older Renee Russo.; 3/15/11, 3:55 PM
Corky Boyd said...: Raise your in-state tuition to $50k and you will be in the top ten; 3/15/11, 3:56 PM
former law student said...: When you make your living by selling college rating books, you have to mix up the rankings to hold the readers' interest.; 3/15/11, 3:56 PM
retire05 said...: Teachers of the sour grapes philosophy, those Wisconsin Dems are.; 3/15/11, 3:58 PM
MadisonMan said...: I don't think it's practical to choose where you go to Law School based on these rankings.

Where do you want to practice law, and what kind of law? Decide that. Then adjust your search criteria.

Going to School X just because it's in the top N in a sell-this-magazine poll is a quick way to become indebted.; 3/15/11, 4:16 PM
deborah said...: fls,
"When you make your living by selling college rating books, you have to mix up the rankings to hold the readers' interest."

Yes, if I read the Drill SGT's post correctly, Wisconsin went froom 35 to 28 to 35 in the last three years. What could possibly account for that variation?; 3/15/11, 4:16 PM
Michael said...: Why not have a big protest against US News? Why not go tear up their fucking offices and beat some drums and chant some chants? Isn't that what you do up there in Wisconsin? This time bring some puppets.; 3/15/11, 4:20 PM
carlinatlanta said...: As a Law Dog (UGA's ranked right ahead of Madison) I've always known that the USNWR rankings are BS; just look at where they rank Emory; no justification whatsoever.; 3/15/11, 4:28 PM
Carol_Herman said...: You know what I think stays the same? The rates you have to pay if you need a lawyer. They don't come cheap.

Probably doesn't mean you can "just hang out a shingle when you graduate." But you can't when you graduate medical school, these days, either.

If there were really such a glut on lawyers, you'd pay less to hire one.

What do people use when they want to hire a lawyer? Word of mouth. Or someone they know (or heard about), who had an excellent experience. Does this rule differ if a man plays golf? Or has a membership at a country club?; 3/15/11, 4:33 PM
carlinatlanta said...: "Steve Krueger was doing his job on Nov. 9 -- removing road-side deer carcasses overnight for the Department of Natural Resources."

Freddy's brother? And that is his job?

C'mon, y'all...; 3/15/11, 4:36 PM
carlinatlanta said...: Sorry, wrong topic, meant that for the Bear-Wolf story!; 3/15/11, 4:41 PM
Deb said...: "As a Law Dog (UGA's ranked right ahead of Madison) I've always known that the USNWR rankings are BS; just look at where they rank Emory; no justification whatsoever."

Wow. Go Dawgs.

Emory. {snort}

wv; gumbl: you can gumbl about it, but there it is.; 3/15/11, 4:42 PM
avwh said...: Well, the Illini can't beat the Badgers in Basketball and Football, but we can beat you at the law.

And most engineering disciplines (civil engineering, for sure).

Fellow Fightin' Illini; 3/15/11, 4:42 PM
Scrutineer said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/15/11, 4:44 PM
David said...: Just think how pissed you would be if you were Pepperdine.; 3/15/11, 4:52 PM
Emil Blatz said...: I completed a law degree at Wisconsin 15 years ago (never had Prof. Althouse for a course, now regret that.) I was working full-time and attending school part-time. My employers paid for my tuition, books and even tossed me what was called "academic leave time." That was paid time-off which you could accrue (~5 hrs/week) over the 14-15 weeks of the semester, then use during the study week or for exams in one continuous block. As a result I graduated with no debt.

I took bar exams to be admitted in other states, and most recently, while standing in line waiting to enter the test facility I was a grayhair amidst a crowd of 24-26 year old fresh graduates. They were all buzzing about the total tonnage of student debts that they carried. I'm talking about cumulative debt in the $90-150K+ range. Kinda like graduating with a mortgage on your back, sans house. Just astonishing.

I think that back in my day I seem to recall Wisconsin as ranging in the high 20's and mid 30's in this US News nonsense. Maybe that is nostalgic enhancement, maybe that's accurate. I never paid much attention to it.; 3/15/11, 4:57 PM
SteveR said...: UT-Arlington doesn't have a law school.

Well aware, that's where I went to Grad School.

I suppose UT might confuse some people between Knoxville and Austin but I think the onus is on Tennessee to avoid the confusion, not Texas.; 3/15/11, 4:58 PM
David said...: My firm had a lot of partners who went to Wisconsin law school. Also a bunch from Harvard, Yale, Virginia, Northwestern, Duke, etc. Believe me, the Wisconsin lawyers had no trouble measuring up to the ones from the biggest name schools.; 3/15/11, 4:59 PM
gadfly said...: it is patently obvious that Wisconsin law professors simply do not plagiarize enough or maybe it is safer to say do not get caught plagiarizing.

Harvard has all but monopolized the practice among law professors, with Larry Tribe, Charles Ogletree and Alan Dershowitz all getting caught. But they were protected by none other than Elena Kagan while she was Law School Dean and better than tha, Larry Tribe had a famous student who helped with the dirty deeds. His name was Barry ... my bad, Barack Obama.; 3/15/11, 5:06 PM
David53 said...: The top ten are all located in unionized states. Bastards.; 3/15/11, 5:22 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: We're crying in Wisconsin.

Why? Their most famous perfesser is a really serious and studious person. She's great at considering all aspects of an argument and never rushing to take sides.

I find this shocking, I tell you. Downright scandalous. Obviously U.S. News and World Report has never heard of Ann Althouse! They will have a lot to account for.; 3/15/11, 5:36 PM
Michael said...: Go and protest. Throw a fit. Have some drum circles in the magazine offices. Go to their editor's homes at 6 in the morning and threaten them. That will get them to change your rankings. Isn't that what you do up there in Wisc if things don't go your way?; 3/15/11, 5:43 PM
Paddy O said...: Professors at Yale are known to always wait in line.; 3/15/11, 5:57 PM
somefeller said...: Also, starting employment salary for UTA students is $160K/yr, same as Yale.

I'd take that number (for both places) with grain of salt. Law schools are notorious for shading those numbers, such as by reporting salaries from people who respond to polls about them. Unemployed / underemployed lawyers usually don't. Also, while the law market in Texas is better than most places, the big Houston and Dallas firms (which are the ones that will pay a new law grad $160K) only hire from the top quarter or top third of UT's class, while they will hire students with lower class ranks from Harvard, Yale or Stanford. It always concerns me to see numbers like this cited, because it leads college kids to think it's a great idea to take out huge debts to go to law school because they can assume they will get hired by the big high-paying law firms. That's never really been the case and is less so now.

Which leads me to support this comment The most depressing stat is the full-time enrollment. This nation can't absorb any more lawyers but the L-schools keep churning them out. and this one Where do you want to practice law, and what kind of law? Decide that. Then adjust your search criteria. Going to School X just because it's in the top N in a sell-this-magazine poll is a quick way to become indebted.

And Hook 'em Horns! I didn't go to law school there, but it's good to see them rejoin (they were there previously) the T14, for whatever US News's rankings are worth.; 3/15/11, 6:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Best career advice to would-be law students: study engineering or pharmacy.

Peter; 3/15/11, 6:59 PM
Peano said...: A) Cry?

B) Jubilate?

C) Yawn and turn the page?

C, Señora.; 3/15/11, 7:07 PM
Leland said...: Well when local residents claim mob rule is what democracy looks like; can you really expect high marks for understanding laws?

Ok, cheap shot, but the protestors make is so easy.; 3/15/11, 7:08 PM
Revenant said...: University of Tennessee-Knoxville #56. Ouch.

Is that an "ouch"? It looks like it is ranked around 25th among public schools. Basically average.

Looks like UT Austin's the way to go -- around $85k total tuition over the three years with a median starting private-sector salary of $160k. Nice.; 3/15/11, 7:22 PM
Big Mike said...: What I'm wondering is how Illinois could be ranked so far above Wisconsin, given the admissions scandals that came out less than two years ago. Please don't get mad at me, Professor, for wondering out loud whether the scandal got discounted because "everybody does it."

Or perhaps it's a case of "all publicity is good publicity."

At any rate, you're way ahead of Glenn Reynolds at Tennessee.

WV: ernazi - the nurse in the Emergency Room who orders everybody around.; 3/15/11, 7:25 PM
vbspurs said...: Revenant wrote (hey there!):

Is that an "ouch"? It looks like it is ranked around 25th among public schools. Basically average.

I hadn't looked at it that way -- good point.

Certainly Miami Law (once considered a very decent school) has slipped in year's past. #77. And very pricey.; 3/15/11, 7:49 PM
Emil Blatz said...: Sure, Miami is pricey. But what a way to spend three years. That's sweet livin', clubbin', surfin' n' fishin'.; 3/15/11, 8:56 PM
PWS said...: Didn't Malcolm Gladwell pretty much destroy the credibility of these rankings in the Feb. 14 issue of the New Yorker?; 3/15/11, 9:43 PM
former law student said...: Best career advice to would-be law students: study engineering or pharmacy.

I knew plenty of engineering students in ls, including a couple PhD's -- as well as a pharmacist and an MD.; 3/15/11, 10:08 PM
Gene said...: Maybe they're docking Wisconsin for having a conservative woman who likes to blog on the faculty.; 3/15/11, 10:21 PM
AST said...: Wisconsin came in 35, my old school came in 42.

wv: trial; 3/16/11, 12:14 AM
Milwaukee said...: Perhaps this ranking is because those Madison Law School graduates choosing to practice in Wisconsin don't need to bother with the bar exam. Thus, they don't push themselves hard enough. Or those from "exclusive" schools favor fellow graduates to preserve their own wonderfulness. See: Everybody on the Supreme Court is from Harvard or Yale. Of course, they only hire clerks from Harvard and Yale. Gotta protect the brand.
Why do some say that having a law degree is a license to steal?; 3/17/11, 9:06 AM