Althouse: Bemoaning the loss of blue laws in the NYT.

September 3, 2010

Bemoaning the loss of blue laws in the NYT.

"Sunday Shopping Linked With Less Happiness."

Good lord.

116 comments:

MadisonMan said...: I notice that only applies to women.

But Correlation != Causation.; 9/3/10, 1:16 PM
campy said...: I notice that only applies to women.

Nobody cares whether males are happy or not.; 9/3/10, 1:19 PM
Michael McNeil said...: Quoting Alexis de Tocqueville, here's what blue laws used to be like in this country, which as Tocqueville noted is “well worth the reader's closest attention.”; 9/3/10, 1:27 PM
Unknown said...: Sunday is the only day some people can go shopping. The gang at the Gray Lady probably gets depressed when they see all those lives not touched, hanging on street corners.

They might want to take a leaf from Buddha or St Francis.; 9/3/10, 1:29 PM
Shanna said...: Is there anywhere you can't shop on Sunday? I cant' buy alcohol on Sunday here but lots of stores are open. Most of them are open after Church, though. This article made it sound like you couldn't go to church if shopping was an option and I just don't see how that could be true. Church is like, an hour.

I like to grocery shop on Sunday, but I wish I could buy wine when i do.; 9/3/10, 1:32 PM
Phil 314 said...: Research: Searching for causality

NYT: Searching for narrative.

All those folks I see at Costco on Sunday afternoon gorging on the food samples seem to be pretty happy. (And I have no idea if they went to church that morning or not.); 9/3/10, 1:38 PM
traditionalguy said...: Sunday closing laws are restrictions of freedom, and therefore are a nuisance. But the lack of a Day of Rest can be seem as a greater nuisance. If God had not commanded it to the Jews, then the "Religiousness" of such a law would not make it Un-Constitutional. A rested commercial area brings great peace to the week. The best example we have remaining is Thanksgiving Day. The silence and the peace on that day is a stunning contrast to the hustling world the other 364 days a year. Christians are OK with either way. Paul ordered us in Colossians that , "Do not let another man judge you in respect of a Sabbath".; 9/3/10, 1:49 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Oh for Christ's sake. You can shop AND go to church on Sunday if you want to. You can also watch football and drink beer after church. It isn't an either or proposition.

Is there anything that these nanny state nazis won't try to control?

LOL..vw: blessedl; 9/3/10, 1:51 PM
Joe said...: Here in Utah, Sunday shopping is bliss. Granted, several malls are closed as are a lot of stores, but the main grocery stores we use are open as are Home Depot and Lowes. Because most Mormons don't shop on Sunday, it makes for a very non-crowded experience.; 9/3/10, 2:20 PM
Joe said...: (The Crypto-Jew)

This is just more Progressive anti-Consumerism…”choice makes us unhappy.” “You need less choice.” I doubt that this applies to the Editorial Board of the NYT or Mayor Bloomberg, but YOU need fewer choices, you’ll be happier and the planet will be more sustainable. I’m sure the NYT, at least, wouldn’t mind shops being open 40 hours or so a week. Mayhap a little tough on Trooper York and his customers, but Sandi, my PA can nip down to Bloomies and get me that adorable gift for Biff and Buffy’s anniversary.; 9/3/10, 2:22 PM
FormerTucsonan said...: How about this for a change:

"Employment At NYT Linked With Extreme Recto-Cranial Impaction"; 9/3/10, 2:36 PM
Paul said...: Ann said: "Good lord."

Were you just punning on what goes on in church? Or were you decrying the suggestion that religious practices should matter more to human flourishing than untrammeled commercialism?; 9/3/10, 2:39 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Althouse - how about a weekly poll asking which was the stupidest NYT story for the week? The poll could be expanded into an annual selection of the dumbest writer at the NYT. After you add enough of these type of regular features, your blog could almost write itself.; 9/3/10, 2:57 PM
Mary Beth said...: For some people, the choice may not be whether to shop or go to church, it's whether to work or insist on having the day off and risk losing your job. Women with children in school may miss having this time with the kids. Ones with younger children have the stress of finding childcare on the weekend.; 9/3/10, 3:30 PM
ricpic said...: Shopping in a store feels wrong on a Sunday...but not shopping online! That devil's a sly one, he he he.; 9/3/10, 3:31 PM
KCFleming said...: "Sunday Shopping Linked With Less Happiness."

Because the NYT is all about my happiness.; 9/3/10, 3:32 PM
Calypso Facto said...: campy said: "Nobody cares whether males are happy or not."

If mama ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy.

But....I thought the NYT was in FAVOR of separation of church and state?; 9/3/10, 3:49 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: "The researchers found that allowing stores to open on Sundays was linked with a decline in church attendance among white women, which led to a subsequent decline in happiness. Among black women, the repeal of the blue laws had no measurable effect, although that may be because the sample size was too small to draw any statistically meaningful conclusions."

Does no one else think it strange that white women have all these problems that don't affect black women at all? Weight and other health concerns, self esteem, feminism, environmentalism, etc. - with the exception of Oprah (!) black women are fine, while white women are freaking-the-fuck-out. I know that amongst my various foster mothers/sisters none of these things are of any importance what-so-ever.

Should there be a study of mental illness (or gullibility to media-influenced concerns) amongst white women?; 9/3/10, 3:57 PM
Synova said...: "Should there be a study of mental illness (or gullibility to media-influenced concerns) amongst white women?'

Not a bad plan.; 9/3/10, 4:01 PM
Anonymous said...: "Good lord."

Good Lord.

There. I fixed it for you.; 9/3/10, 4:21 PM
Jennifer said...: I know that laws against shopping on Sundays seem ridiculous to Americans. But, having everything closed on Sundays here in Germany is lovely. Everybody has a day of rest. People spend time with their families. There's no hustle and bustle or delivery trucks or people driving all over. It's an actual day of rest and frankly, it's lovely.

But, profit and convenience are more important. Of course.; 9/3/10, 5:28 PM
Trooper York said...: Sunday is one of my favorite shopping times of the week. Especially now during football season.

I but some Lazy-boy recliners and a big TV in the back room and the husbands come in the back to watch the game while the wives enjoy shopping!

I get to entertain and not have to be in the front doing bra fittings.

Heaven man.; 9/3/10, 5:31 PM
Trooper York said...: I put the Lazy-Boys in the back.

The but is what the guys put in it when they are catching the game.

Did I tell you lately that the New York Giants are going to win the Superbowl?; 9/3/10, 5:37 PM
Diamondhead said...: "There's something in a Sunday that makes a body feel alone."

- Kris Kristofferson

I don't know if this is true for non-Christians, but if I play this song for someone who grew up going to church on Sunday they always say they know exactly what he's talking about. I don't think it has to do with shopping.; 9/3/10, 5:56 PM
ALP said...: Trooper York @ 5:31:

I but some Lazy-boy recliners and a big TV in the back room and the husbands come in the back to watch the game while the wives enjoy shopping!

**************

That is genius! I never did understand why other women insist on bringing their men with them when they shop for themselves.

Every now and then, when I'm at retail establishment catering to women - I'll see men of various shapes, sizes and ages that have been plunked in a corner (holding the purse, of course) looking miserable. This one poor elderly man was perched on a stool while his PITA granddaughter shopped - poor guy fell asleep and fell off the stool he had been sitting there so long!

I've long thought that would make a great photo essay - "Retail's Forgotten Men", "Bored, Sleeping Men Holding Purses" or something like that. Some of the painfully bored looks I've seen are priceless.; 9/3/10, 6:05 PM
Unknown said...: Trooper York said...

Sunday is one of my favorite shopping times of the week. Especially now during football season.

I but some Lazy-boy recliners and a big TV in the back room and the husbands come in the back to watch the game while the wives enjoy shopping!

I get to entertain and not have to be in the front doing bra fittings.

Heaven man.

I know it's work for you, but a lot of guys would reverse that.

WV "affqstzl" What The Zero would be reduced to in a debate with Sarah Palin.; 9/3/10, 6:20 PM
traditionalguy said...: Trooper...How will Tom Coughlan's Giants stop the Falcons? He is not that good a coach. He comes across as madder at his own players than he is at the opponents.; 9/3/10, 6:23 PM
Penny said...: ""There's something in a Sunday that makes a body feel alone."

- Kris Kristofferson

I don't know if this is true for non-Christians, but if I play this song for someone who grew up going to church on Sunday they always say they know exactly what he's talking about. I don't think it has to do with shopping."

This observation cut to the quick of my athiest soul.

Diamondhead drilling down.; 9/3/10, 6:33 PM
Unknown said...: edutcher said "Sunday is the only day some people can go shopping."

Maybe being too busy to shop except on Sunday is part of what decreases happiness.; 9/3/10, 6:55 PM
Trooper York said...: "traditionalguy said...
Trooper...How will Tom Coughlan's Giants stop the Falcons? He is not that good a coach. He comes across as madder at his own players than he is at the opponents."

I know he looks pissed off. He even sounds pissed off when posts on the internet under his pen name of Cedarford.

But he just got new glasses and now he realizes that Brandon Jacobs isn't Jewish.

So we should be Ok!; 9/3/10, 7:05 PM
Trooper York said...: I just hope he doesn't check Victor Cruz's papers.

I mean every team needs a really fast illegal immigrant running back.

That's why he didn't try to sign with Arizona after all!; 9/3/10, 7:06 PM
Trooper York said...: By the way...Brett Farve is the Roger Clemins of football.

Just thought you should know that!; 9/3/10, 7:07 PM
Penny said...: Long ago it ceased to be about "Sunday" for me.

I was a kid atheist WAY before my time.

But then I met some people on line who were NOT athiests, and who celebrated Saturday as their holy day. I missed them on Saturday, but appreciated that my friends needed time to do something that was important to them.

And then my Friday friend. Only one, but an important one.

I missed them all!

Except for my Christian friends.

Ha ha, I see them all! Well OK, not all at the same time maybe, and fewer on Christmas Day than I would like.

I've always assumed that's because it looks too "needy" to be an American on-line on Christmas Day. *we have our limits*

Often wondered where my athiest, American friends were, and often hoped they weren't as lonely as me.

"Family gatherings" seem to matter for some. "Looking good" matters to others. Open stores seem to have replaced religions...if not loneliness.

As for me?

I am celebrating my personal space in this world, and for as long as I live.; 9/3/10, 7:40 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: @Crack - Does no one else think it strange that white women have all these problems that don't affect black women at all? Weight and other health concerns, self esteem, feminism, environmentalism, etc. - with the exception of Oprah (!) black women are fine, while white women are freaking-the-fuck-out. I know that amongst my various foster mothers/sisters none of these things are of any importance what-so-ever.

It's called white liberal guilt. Just be glad that you're not susceptible.; 9/3/10, 9:18 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Penny,

On my (real) mother's side of the family they fight over which is right: Friday or Saturday worship. I don't talk to them because a) I hate the stupid argument, and b) they won't stop trying to convert me.

Maguro,

"It's called white liberal guilt. Just be glad that you're not susceptible."

LOL

wv: "atiest" - blogger's joke, I imagine.; 9/3/10, 9:56 PM
Penny said...: "It's called white liberal guilt."

And as a usually, non-liberal American, I feel so ashamed for not seeing that guilt for what it was.; 9/3/10, 10:05 PM
Peter Hoh said...: While I was growing up in New Jersey, blue laws were on their way out, but my father kept observing them.

I don't mourn the passing of the blue laws, but I do not like the idea of the big-box stores being open on Thanksgiving and Christmas Day.

Nor do I like the idea of stores opening at midnight -- or 4 am -- on Black Friday.

Not that I think there should be a law against it.; 9/3/10, 11:45 PM
Jason said...: I know that laws against shopping on Sundays seem ridiculous to Americans. But, having everything closed on Sundays here in Germany is lovely. Everybody has a day of rest. People spend time with their families. There's no hustle and bustle or delivery trucks or people driving all over. It's an actual day of rest and frankly, it's lovely.

Well, I suppose since you kraut basterds merrily slaughtered almost all your Saturday worshipers, I guess it works out ok for you, huh?

The rest of us have other people to consider.; 9/4/10, 12:16 AM
Jennifer said...: Well, I suppose since you kraut basterds merrily slaughtered almost all your Saturday worshipers, I guess it works out ok for you, huh?

I'm an American, but fuck you too, buddy.

And for the record, in all but the biggest cities, most commerce has very limited hours on Saturdays. Things are often closed Wednesdays. Or Thursdays. Or whenever the heck the shop owner feels like it. Stores and services are apt to randomly shut down for two to three week holidays with nothing but a little sign in the window as warning.

It takes some getting used to and a little planning ahead, but it beats the hell out of worshiping at the altar of the almighty dollar and living in a 24/7 marketplace instead of a community.; 9/4/10, 4:33 AM
888 said...: The growth of Sunday labor is the death of liberty. It diminishes family life. It diminishes Christian culture. It diminishes that sense of equality that only comes from a shared celebration, that sense that there is an equality that must be recognized. It takes a guaranteed and needed day of rest from the poor, many of whom work two jobs, and even grants a day when welfare recipients and the unemployed are on an equal footing. It kills leisure. It suffocates the human spirit.

The death of Sunday is a perfect communist plot to destroy the fabric of a Christian civilization, but it is the work of the marketing world, starting with sports.

Jason, Godwin. Jewish people understand the benefits of a day of rest. Have you ever been to New York? Or read a Bible?; 9/4/10, 4:54 AM
Anonymous said...: When you see someone working two jobs, it's usually a pretty good sign that he needs money more than leisure. God forbid that he should be allowed to make that decision for himself.

The next time you see a liberal shrugging off terrorism, remember: he's only doing it because he has to husband his store of indignation for the really important stuff, like this.; 9/4/10, 5:52 AM
Anonymous said...: If living in a community means having harpies like Jennifer calling the shots for me, give me a 24/7 marketplace, and quickly.; 9/4/10, 6:08 AM
Jennifer said...: Right, and harpies = women who disagree with me. Nice.

And, this is how it is here and I like it = "calling the shots".

Not sure if you're living in a community or a 24/7 marketplace but it clearly doesn't have a whole lot in common with reality.; 9/4/10, 6:54 AM
AllenS said...: I remember when Minnesota had no alcohol sales on Sunday, and semi-trucks were also not allowed on the roads that day. Things have changed and now they allow on-sale liquor only, and truckers can drive on Sunday.

Since the easing of the blue laws, Jesse Ventura has been governor, Al Franken is a Senator, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Dayton winning. They need to get rid of the on-sale liquor obviously. Once they sober up, maybe then, they could be treated as adults.

WV: domie

Yea, and the Vikings play in a domie.; 9/4/10, 7:52 AM
Anonymous said...: I was once in Salt Lake City for a training and I need toothpaste on Sunday morning and there was no place open. This was awhile ago.

I thought it was pretty weird but I was also filled with a weird and intense joy that verged on orgasmic.; 9/4/10, 8:39 AM
Anonymous said...: Is Timon high sarcasm? Do people spouting about a day of rest realize that we have two days of rest now and 40-hour work weeks?

You think that was the norm back when Aaron was giving into demands to worship cow statues in the desert? Really?

Happiness will elude some people even in heaven.; 9/4/10, 8:42 AM
Paco Wové said...: But, profit and convenience are more important. Of course.

Fuck you and the sanctimonious high horse you rode in on, Jennifer.; 9/4/10, 9:15 AM
Jason said...: Jennifer: "Fuck you, too, pal."

New around here, ain't ya? ;-)

Please don't take offense. That comment was written with my tongue planted firmly in cheek.

WV: Scher. Partly Schonny.; 9/4/10, 10:46 AM
888 said...: Wow, supporting a day of rest is a leftist policy? The universal day of rest is the only thing which plants the idea of equality in people's minds; there has to be a lived experience, and nothing else can come close.

It is also deeply rooted in the tradition out of which our liberties were recognized. Hardly leftist. It strengthens religion and family life.

It's news to me that people choose to work on Sundays, unless they are really working 8-12 shifts a week (seven days a week not being enough in that case) or bribed by laws increasing pay on Sundays. One of two parents, perhaps; and even if it is practical, is it preferable to them, let alone objectively?

Moreover, the competition between businesses means that if one elects to open on Sunday the others are dragged into it, willy nilly. How has the economy done since Sundays became booming for retail?; 9/4/10, 11:32 AM
Kev said...: But, having everything closed on Sundays here in Germany is lovely. Everybody has a day of rest. People spend time with their families.

But, but, doesn't that discriminate against people who don't have any nearby family to spend time with? Wouldn't that just make them feel..lonelier?

*removes tongue from cheek*

When you see someone working two jobs, it's usually a pretty good sign that he needs money more than leisure. God forbid that he should be allowed to make that decision for himself.

Well said.; 9/4/10, 11:35 AM
Kev said...: But on a more serious note, I remember the Texas blue laws as a kid. The one thing that could be open was the grocery store, but they had to rope off certain sections of the store on Sundays, because not everything in there could be sold on that day.

And it was wildly inconsistent, too--for example you could buy a paintbrush, but not paint (or maybe vice versa). I didn't miss the laws when they went away.; 9/4/10, 11:39 AM
888 said...: Sunday is a little Heaven on the way to Heaven. I appreciate the comment about the forty hour work week, but don't thnik a day off is the same thing when others are working.; 9/4/10, 11:44 AM
Jennifer said...: New around here, ain't ya? ;-)

Not exactly...? I've been commenting here for at least five years.

Fuck you and the sanctimonious high horse you rode in on, Jennifer.

One can pay lip service to the idea that freedom is the crux of the issue here, but the reality is that this boils down to retailers' profit and consumers' convenience. Is it sanctimonious to acknowledge that reality and lament it? Maybe so. But it's more honest than pretending this has anything to do with noble ideals.; 9/4/10, 12:33 PM
Anonymous said...: but don't thnik a day off is the same thing when others are working.

True dat. There's a lot more things you can do with your day off if everyplace isn't closed. Better stay away from church, though: you know how alienated from the community's values those clergymen get from having to work on Sunday.; 9/4/10, 12:43 PM
Anonymous said...: "Mind your own business" is the noble ideal that makes all other noble ideals possible.; 9/4/10, 12:48 PM
Paco Wové said...: Sunday is a little Heaven on the way to Heaven

An eternal Sunday afternoon sounds like Hell.; 9/4/10, 12:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Wow, supporting a day of rest is a leftist policy?[...]It is also deeply rooted in the tradition out of which our liberties were recognized. Hardly leftist.

Timon, you have to understand that "conservative" in this country really means "right liberal", i.e., someone who disagrees with a left liberal about the place of markets in the "freedom of choice" hierarchy. So the idea of a culturally shared "day of rest", a conservative idea if ever there was one, has to be classified as "leftist" within that system, only because it interferes with market freedom, which the right liberal, contra the left liberal, places at or very near the top of that hierarchy.

I would bet that not one in a million American "conservatives" have any familiarity with that leisure/culture/freedom concept you're getting it, despite its long pedigree, and those that do are instinctively repelled by it (or just find it baffling) - because there is really no such thing as an American conservative.

Jus' sayin'.; 9/4/10, 12:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Paco Wové: An eternal Sunday afternoon sounds like Hell.

"The Sunday malaise". "The long dark tea time of the soul". Anybody else got some more literary descriptions of the experience of that peculiar Sunday afternoon acedia? There must be more, for so common an experience.

I wonder if, paradoxically, the repeal of blue laws exacerbates rather than assuages the Sunday Malaise. I'll give it some thought while enjoying my customary Sunday afternoon bubbly.

wv: dinar. If guess if I were buying in dinars not dollars the Sunday Malaise would be the Friday Malaise.; 9/4/10, 1:03 PM
888 said...: Sunday labor is a massive cultural change, and the effects will be devastating. It is a turning from religion to entertainment.; 9/4/10, 1:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Timon -- So what? If people find religion not useful for their lives, don't blame people.; 9/4/10, 1:17 PM
Trooper York said...: Hey I have time to go to the early Mass on Sunday Morning, go shopping, make the wife breakfast and then go to open the store.

And blog five nasty comments on the blooger lady's site.

The rest of youse guys are just lazy bastards.; 9/4/10, 1:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Jennifer: Is it sanctimonious to acknowledge that reality and lament it?

Sanctimony is more in the style than the substance.

Maybe so. But it's more honest than pretending this has anything to do with noble ideals.

Here, let me help you understand the charge of "sanctimony". "I think the ideology of commerce über alles is culturally destructive, and I think some kinds of blue laws are probably a good idea, even if they require that we put restrictions on freedom of commerce" is not a sanctimonious statement. In fact, I tend to agree with it.

On the other hand, this statement is sanctimonious: "People who don't agree that it's a good idea to restrict other people's freedoms via blue laws are all lying sacks of money-grubbing shit".; 9/4/10, 1:28 PM
Anonymous said...: Anyone who goes around saying things like "the universal day of rest is the only thing which plants the idea of equality in people's minds" is going to baffle a lot more people than just right-wing liberals.; 9/4/10, 1:29 PM
Anonymous said...: "I think the ideology of commerce über alles is culturally destructive, and I think some kinds of blue laws are probably a good idea, even if they require that we put restrictions on freedom of commerce" is not a sanctimonious statement.

Maybe not, but the tendentious rhetorical inflation puts it on thin ice. I don't believe in any ideology of commerce ueber alles and I don't know anyone who does; I just believe that if I want to be able to buy a sheet of plywood on Sunday and Lowe's wants to be able to sell me a sheet of plywood on Sunday, Jennifer and Timon should butt out-- not because I want to exalt commerce in any way, but because, well, who the fuck asked them anyway?; 9/4/10, 1:40 PM
Paco Wové said...: "don't th[in]k a day off is the same thing when others are working."

Your desire for enforced communal experience creeps me out. Severely.; 9/4/10, 1:41 PM
888 said...: Paco,

I hope that you are just as creeped out by 12 years of forced education, five days a week and homework to boot, with one's entire life almost certainly in the balance.

Or is it just, one day in seven we don't make each other work, or take advantage of the other's rest that creeps you out?

Do you shiver when you walk past a polling location - *democracy*?; 9/4/10, 2:11 PM
Anonymous said...: I hope that you are just as creeped out by 12 years of forced education, five days a week and homework to boot, with one's entire life almost certainly in the balance.

This is simply not accurate, as homeschooling is almost certainly legal where you live.

How about we have no laws about stores closing on any day, but you can close yours if you want or keep it open, and I can choose to shop or work or neither. How about that, here in the United fucking States of America, sweet land of liberty?; 9/4/10, 2:19 PM
Paco Wové said...: "...you can close yours if you want or keep it open, and I can choose to shop or work or neither."

Remarkably enough, this describes the exact situation in the mid-sized midwestern town in which I live. Some shops are open, many are closed. Blood-stained altars to Mammon are strangely absent. Nobody gets on the Jews or Muslims for having the wrong day of rest.; 9/4/10, 2:27 PM
Anonymous said...: And let's all thank God for the Chinese restaurants that are open on Christmas Day.; 9/4/10, 2:28 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Seven, et al, I love liberty as much as the next guy. I don't support blue laws, but that doesn't mean I can't look back fondly on a time when people eschewed most shopping on Sunday. (Though a trip to Piskar's Bakery after church was just about as sacred as church.)

I remember a time when people celebrated Memorial Day with a solemn parade and a family picnic. Now, if one paid attention to the TV ads, it's the ideal day to go shopping for a mattress or something.

In twenty years, will you feel nostalgic about the old days when everything except the gas stations and hospitals were closed on Christmas Day?; 9/4/10, 2:28 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Whoops, it's Pisker's.

The sticky buns look just like I remember. But the butter cake -- that was the best.; 9/4/10, 2:31 PM
Anonymous said...: Peter -- I hear people my age lamenting what kids wear today, and morals, and how they can't keep their doors unlocked at night, and how back when they were young things were different, and better.

This is all very hilarious to me because when I was a kid I clearly, clearly remember older people talking about what kids wore those days, and morals, and how they couldn't keep their doors unlocked at night, and how back when they were young things were different, and better.

Liberty is magnificent and more liberty is almost always more magnificent. Our culture is strong. Our culture is vibrant. Our culture is dynamic. All of this is to be celebrated.

With regard to Memorial Day, it used to be called Decoration Day and there are good, logical, awesome reasons why we don't have solemn parades on Memorial Day right now. However, if we have some war where several million beloved sons and daughters and mothers and fathers sacrifice themselves for this glorious nation, you can be sure that those solemn parades will come back very much into vogue.; 9/4/10, 2:35 PM
Anonymous said...: we don't make each other work, or take advantage of the other's rest

You do realize that practically every retail transaction, every day, is between someone who's at work and someone who isn't, yes?; 9/4/10, 2:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Paul Zrimsek: Maybe not, but the tendentious rhetorical inflation puts it on thin ice.

Oh ffs Paul, I was making a rhetorical point to Jennifer, get the stick out of your butt.

I don't believe in any ideology of commerce ueber alles and I don't know anyone who does; I just believe that if I want to be able to buy a sheet of plywood on Sunday and Lowe's wants to be able to sell me a sheet of plywood on Sunday, Jennifer and Timon should butt out-- not because I want to exalt commerce in any way, but because, well, who the fuck asked them anyway?

Paul, if you believe that society is never justified in coming between willing buyers and sellers of plywood for what Paco is calling "enforced communal experience", then you can reasonably be said to exalt, if not commerce über alles (a bit hyperbolic, I grant, in the implication that you would sell your grandmother for plywood), then commerce über the social or cultural values for which the blue laws were enacted in the first place. That's not an argument for blue laws, it's just a statement of fact about where you stand. Own it. It's perfectly defensible; in fact, I have no idea how one would go about defending Timon's position in modern America, as there is very little common cultural life now, and what little there is is rapidly disappearing.

You and Timon (and Jennifer) are simply speaking from entirely different premises about how society ought to operate. Opposing "Sunday labor is a massive cultural change, and the effects will be devastating" to "'Mind your own business' is the noble ideal that makes all other noble ideals possible" (or vice versa) just puts one into "not even wrong" territory, as far as the implicit axioms of the other person go.

Nothing left here but for us to be creeped out by one another, I guess.; 9/4/10, 2:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Liberty über alles you fascist fucking bitches.; 9/4/10, 2:49 PM
Anonymous said...: If Memorial Day parades have gone away (have they?) we can certainly feel bad about that, for reasons that have nothing at all to do with blue laws. But shopping for a mattress has neither more nor less to do with the memory of the glorious fallen than a having a family picnic.

Basing your ideas about what people do on TV commercials is a pretty reliable way to get an exaggerated notion of the dominance of commerce.; 9/4/10, 2:51 PM
Paco Wové said...: You know, I'll bet if I broke my leg tomorrow (restfully puttering about in the yard, for instance), there'd be some tradition-crushing amoral dollar-worshipping wage slave doctor at the local hospital who would fix me right up. The bastard. I should bust up his ER just to teach him a thing or two about sabbath profanation.; 9/4/10, 2:56 PM
Anonymous said...: You and Timon (and Jennifer) are simply speaking from entirely different premises about how society ought to operate.

Nooooo! Really?; 9/4/10, 3:00 PM
888 said...: Seven Machos,

the people who founded this land of liberty thoroughly disagreed with your position. Even a law gets a day off while awaiting the President's signature.; 9/4/10, 3:01 PM
Anonymous said...: Paul -- Yeah, I love the people who try to stand in above the fray (while in it) observing shrewdly that people disagree.

Peter -- I don't put you in the fascist bitch category. Well far from it. You know I love you.; 9/4/10, 3:02 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Paul, re. the picnic not being related to the focus of Memorial Day: my point is that we've always been able to justify that which we want to do. Just like my father's values (no shopping on Sunday) didn't get in the way of us driving out of our way to stop by the bakery after church.

I mean, you couldn't have Saturday rolls with Sunday dinner. That just wouldn't be right.; 9/4/10, 3:02 PM
Jennifer said...: Jennifer and Timon should butt out-- not because I want to exalt commerce in any way, but because, well, who the fuck asked them anyway?

God forbid we be allowed to make the decision to have an opinion ourselves. Or, wait...does that only apply to the dude who wants to work two jobs on Sunday?

Last I checked, Paul, nobody the fuck has to ask me to a.) have an opinion and b.) spew it in a blog comment.

Who the fuck asked you anyway?; 9/4/10, 3:03 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Seven, I love you too.

How else can we explain our multiple simultaneous posts in this thread?; 9/4/10, 3:04 PM
Anonymous said...: Timon -- The people who founded this great nation were not remotely fundamentalist Christians. They were figures of the Enlightenment.

I am going shopping tomorrow in your dishonor.; 9/4/10, 3:05 PM
888 said...: Hey, do we have any stats on how many people who work on Sunday work forty to fifty hours a week and have two days off? Because it doesn't sound right to me.; 9/4/10, 3:10 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Seven: The people who founded this great nation were not remotely fundamentalist Christians.

Dude, why do you hate America?; 9/4/10, 3:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Hey, do we have any stats on how many people who work on Sunday work forty to fifty hours a week and have two days off? Because it doesn't sound right to me.

What an absurd quibble, particularly when the nominal unemployment rate is 10 percent and the real unemployment rate is closer to 20 percent. The 40-hour work week is mandatory under federal law for hourly workers and many other kinds of workers. If you work more than 40 hours, you get paid 1.5 times your normal pay.

Do you have any legitimate arguments that you know anything about to bring to this salon?; 9/4/10, 3:13 PM
Anonymous said...: I think I'm understanding you now, Peter. What you miss isn't the blue laws themselves so much as the piquancy of the strange gaps in them, is that about right?; 9/4/10, 3:14 PM
Anonymous said...: I know, Peter. I try to be civil but I can't hide my hatred for this vile land of liberty and wealth.; 9/4/10, 3:14 PM
888 said...: In my dishonor?

Me too. McDonald's is going to serve me pancakes, and Shell can't wait to brew my coffee. Why should those two fine upstanding citizens/legal resident aliens, be driven into poverty by my refusal to heed their request to serve me?

It is a free country after all, and if they want to serve me breakfast, who am I to stand in their way? McDonald's and Shell are good friends of mine. We've known each other since 4ever.; 9/4/10, 3:20 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Paul, there are always going to be strange gaps. We are curious creatures with a great capacity for rationalizing what we want.

Can't I just feel nostalgic without having to defend everything about which I harbor fond memories?

On the other hand, how about answering my question about Christmas Day shopping? As much as I love the free market, once Lowe's decides to be open on Christmas Day, Home Depot will follow, and so on.

Sure, you might really need plywood on Christmas Day, but won't something be lost when Christmas Day is just another day on the retail calendar?; 9/4/10, 3:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Paul Z.: Anyone who goes around saying things like "the universal day of rest is the only thing which plants the idea of equality in people's minds" is going to baffle a lot more people than just right-wing liberals.

Uh, yeah, that was my point. Timon is making a shorthand reference to a body of thought that now has virtually no purchase in America, and expecting others to understand what he's talking about.

'Course it's possible he just got hold of the Cliff Notes version and doesn't himself know what he's talking about.

wv: wargene. Feeling particularly belligerent, must be my wargene being furiously transcribed today.; 9/4/10, 3:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Trouble is, even if you grant every premise of Toryism, the idea that "the universal day of rest is the only thing which plants the idea of equality in people's minds" is still arrant nonsense.; 9/4/10, 3:26 PM
888 said...: No Seven,

other than a reference to the Constitution, and a bias towards traditional American life, I have no argument that Sunday labor is a nasty piece of work. I acknowledge that the need to go out to eat is as vital as caring for a broken leg. I am indifferent to the role of sports, television, and advertisers in creating an acceptance of Sunday as a day for shopping and popular entertainment.

I was ashamed to have learned that corporate persons might want to help you of a Sunday morning and afternoon in the face of my obdurate laziness. I was saddened to hear of a Sunday malaise.; 9/4/10, 3:30 PM
Paco Wové said...: Can't I just feel nostalgic without having to defend everything about which I harbor fond memories?

Sure, as long as you are willing to acknowledge that you are just talking about your feeeeeelllings, not trying to make a serious argument, and not trying to pretend that your feeeeeelllings give you some sort of justification to look down your nose at the rest of us filthy capitalists.; 9/4/10, 4:14 PM
joewxman said...: Bergen County in NJ has blue laws while its surrounding counties do not which has been driving sales and tax revenue elsewhere. It all about money for municipalities but many residents there love the fact the Sunday is one day a week of a traffic free existence.; 9/4/10, 4:40 PM
Jennifer said...: Oh for crying out loud. When did you all get so sensitive around here!?

Look, "worshipping at the altar of the almighty dollar" may have been a tad excessive. Possibly neurotic. In my defense, I was called a kraut bastard, a harpy and accused of genocide in the space between my first comment and that one.

And, I do want to take the opportunity to separate my argument from Timon's. This is not a religious ideal, for me. I really don't care whether everybody takes a breather on Tuesday, Friday or the holiest of all holy days.

But, I do find the idea of a communal breather to be well, lovely. As I said before. There's a lot of mental upside to taking a step back from the frenzy for a day.

I'm resistant to the idea of government control as well (although, clearly less fervently than some of you). But, you all favor government control where you see a benefit from it. I see a benefit here.; 9/4/10, 4:49 PM
Anonymous said...: Paul Z: Nooooo! Really?

Yeeeess, really. If you think it absurd to suggest that people can know they disagree about the branches without realizing they disagree about the roots, then you must have too much good sense to have seriously observed the last 30 years' culture wars.

If you really saw the size of the gulf, you wouldn't just be repeating your position, as if you believed it turned on some common point of agreement that would make it persuasive or at least explanatory. You'd either say "who the fuck asked you any way?" as a gesture of dismissal, or you'd ask more interesting questions than "who the fuck asked you anyway?".; 9/4/10, 4:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Paul Z: Trouble is, even if you grant every premise of Toryism...

It wasn't Toryism I had in mind. But I should cease presuming to speak for Timon. (Before it transpires that I'm completely off the mark and he's actually referencing Mme Blavatsky or Wilhelm Reich or Oprah Winfrey...); 9/4/10, 4:58 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Paco, do you see anything in what I wrote that suggests that i was using my feelings to argue a public policy position? Did I write anything to suggest that my feelings made me better than anyone else? Did I write anything that suggests that I was unaware that I was writing about my feelings?

I am not the straw man you are looking for.

That aside, how come Paul (or anyone else) can't answer my question about stores being open on Christmas Day?

When just about every store is open on Christmas Day, will you consider it the triumph of liberty?; 9/4/10, 4:58 PM
Trooper York said...: Boy you guys sure are silly.

I close Christmas Day. And Christmsas Eve. Because I could not make any money on either of those days. The same with Thanksgiving Day and the Fourth of July. But if they were top income days?

We have been pretty much working seven days a week for the past four years. So we decided to take one day off a week during the summer. Tuesdays. And I am sick about it. Because I don't know how much business I might be losing. When someone emails or calls and says they came to the store and it was closed I want to bang my head against the wall until my brains come out of my ears.

You guys who are wage slaves have no freakin idea.; 9/4/10, 5:04 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: When just about every store is open on Christmas Day, will you consider it the triumph of liberty?

Is there some kind of law against stores being open on Christmas Day?
I don't think there is, but I could be wrong. I thought stores closed on Christmas and Thanksgiving because nobody wants to shop then.; 9/4/10, 5:13 PM
Peter Hoh said...: I'm sure that there are no laws against being open on Christmas Day or Thanksgiving. Nor am I advocating such laws.

Over the past 5 years or so, there have been creeping hours. One of the larger grocery stores started staying open until noon on Thanksgiving Day.

If I recall correctly, K-Mart was open on Thanksgiving last year or the year before.

I think the big stores all used to be closed on July 4. Now they are all open. Not sure when it changed.

I predict that more and more stores are going to open on Thanksgiving Day, and then more and more will be open on Christmas Day. Once a few of them make that decision, others will follow. And then something will be lost.

Not that there needs to be a law.; 9/4/10, 5:26 PM
Paco Wové said...: Paco, do you see anything in what I wrote that suggests that i was using my feelings to argue a public policy position?

No. That's why the phrase "as long as" was in what I said, rather than directly taking you to task for such a position.

Did I write anything to suggest that my feelings made me better than anyone else?

You didn't, but that foul-mouthed Eurotrash-wannabe did.

When just about every store is open on Christmas Day, will you consider it the triumph of liberty?

Whether they are open or not is irrelevant. Whether they are permitted to be open is the whole point.; 9/4/10, 5:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Notice the gap in comments between 3:30 and 4:14? My reply about Christmas is in there. For what it's wroth, it was pretty much the same as Maguro's.

I apologize for repeating my position by way of distinguishing it from the Village Explainer's strawman. If making it "Commerce ueber alles" keeps things tidy, "Commerce ueber alles" it shall be.; 9/4/10, 5:30 PM
Jennifer said...: that foul-mouthed Eurotrash-wannabe

Ha ha! Ok, it's been a while since every comment responding to me was light on argument and heavy on insult.

You guys need a day off from shopping.; 9/4/10, 5:40 PM
Jason said...: Liberty uber alles, you fascist fucking bitches!!!

Seven Machos wins.; 9/4/10, 6:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Paul Z: I apologize for repeating my position by way of distinguishing it from the Village Explainer's strawman.

It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.

In my next exciting lecture, I will villagely explain to Paul Z. and Peter Hoh why they should stop using "straw man" to mean "Stop interpreting my words as if they were straightforward statements in plain English!"; 9/4/10, 6:33 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Paco That's why the phrase "as long as" was in what I said, rather than directly taking you to task for such a position.

Well, as long as you aren't raping puppies and tossing them to hungry alligators, then I guess you're not directly taking me to task for a position that I never took.; 9/4/10, 7:56 PM
888 said...: From the Lateran Treaty of 1929:

"Art. 37. The director of the State Association of physical culture for pre-military instruction, of the Avanguardisti and the Balilla, in order to render possible the religious instruction of the youth entrusted to them, shall dispose the hours in such a way as shall not impede on Sundays and days of precept the fulfilment of their religious duties.

The same applies to the directors of public schools for gatherings of their pupils on the said feast days."

Clearly the day of the Lord was a fascist plot from the beginning. And in this document we see its terrible fulfillment. Imagine telling schools not to have their sporting activities on holy days and Sundays.; 9/4/10, 8:41 PM
Anonymous said...: When you want to interpret someone's words as if they were straightforward statements in plain English, what better way to start than by translating them into German?; 9/5/10, 7:11 AM
Anonymous said...: Paul Z: When you want to interpret someone's words as if they were straightforward statements in plain English, what better way to start than by translating them into German?

Gee, I'm really sorry, Paul. I didn't realize those common foreign phrases from the standard English lexicon constituted a translation into a foreign language for you. Ay caramba. (Shit, there I go again.) I'll make an effort to avoid them in the future when addressing you, but if I should slip up, remember, Babelfish does an OK job with the simple stuff.; 9/5/10, 11:50 AM
Trooper York said...: Hey I am busy working this Sunday morning. Where is everybody?

Lazy bastards.; 9/5/10, 1:20 PM
Peter Hoh said...: I, for one, am giving thanks that the big box hardware store is open.

Plumbing emergency solved.; 9/5/10, 3:45 PM
Trooper York said...: Fun fact.

I just had one of my best days this year.

On the Sunday of Labor Day weekend.

Who'd a thunk it.; 9/5/10, 6:31 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Congrats, Trooper.

Did a change in the weather just happen? We went from summer hot to fall cool a few days ago. I can imagine that might put some women in a mood to shop for clothes.

As for me, it put me in the mood to buy a leaf blower/vac.; 9/5/10, 8:52 PM