Okay... but then what? It's an interesting progression, worthy of a standardized test.
What's next in the series that begins Ground Zero, mosque, gay bar...? Help me compose the multiple choice question options. When you've done that and identified the correct answer, compose a multiple choice question based on the new series of items. Continue in this fashion until you're ready to write an essay on why you think this conversation in the form of retaliatory expressive architecture has to end and how you propose to end it.
August 10, 2010
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186 comments:
I'm really not in the mood for ending retaliation.
How about a Hooters in Mecca?
Christian Scientist Emergency Room?
Scientology Wikipedia Center?
Global Warming Document Repository?
-XC
No essay here, just belly laughs at McArdle and mesquito above.
Huge Twitter roll last night to come up with the name.
My favorite: Outfidels!
What's next in the series that begins Ground Zero, mosque, gay bar...?
Grouns Zero, gay bar burns to the ground, killing all the occupants.
[it won't be built]
HoMohammed's
I had to laugh when I read that, but it's sort of pointless.
You see, all male Muslims are straight.
That was what was told to me by a fashion photographer in Kuala Lumpur, a Muslim who at times dresses in women's clothing and who, I am told, has skills in the art of phallic stimulation.
(I meet the most interesting people on vacation.)
Continue in this fashion until you're ready to write an essay on why you think this conversation in the form of retaliatory expressive architecture has to end and how you propose to end it
No.
You really miss being in school and teaching don't you?
I support the first and fifth amendments...so I am not going to betray those principles to stop this Cordoba House.
but I am digusted by liberal politicians falling over one another trying to show how understanding they are. I cannot see Rudy or Ed Koch ever doing that. It is not racist to oppose this project (even if it is probably too late to back it).
The backers of this mosque are up to no good. I do not like it. I think it is inappropriate. It should not be located there (do you remember the outrage at Auchwitz when nuns...NUNS!!! had a little chappel there!). But I am at a loss how you block it short of eminent domain to include that building in the 9.11 memorial. And even then, they could just buy another near by building. It is probably too late to change zoning without it violating constitutional rights.
So the next best thing is to watch it closely, mock them, and vote weak politicians out of office.
Perhaps an outreach center where people of good will and all faiths can gather and give support, financial and otherwise, to such bedraggled minorities as Egyptian Coptics, Palestinian Christians, Iranian Bahais. It would be nice if they took up a collection on behalf of the family of the Christian optometrist who was recently murdered in Afghanistan. Let's up the level of moderation.
Teacher! Teacher! Dust Bunny Queen is creating a classroom disturbance!
Bloomberg is a liberal? I did not know. Actually, I'm not recalling any liberal politicians falling all over each other - they seemed oddly quiet.
The architectural piece is capped by rebuilding the Twin Towers. The exercise ends when the Islamists crash planes into them again and President Palin unleashes the next Crusade.
My call for a name was:
Mohammed's Man Mecca
"Come for the boys, stay for the goats"
Cordially,
Uncle J
No
"What's next in the series that begins Ground Zero, mosque, gay bar...?"
Holocaust Museum
I claim credit for this idea first voiced on another thread of this blog. My suggestion was to have a strip club feature as well and to name the place THE CRUSADER.
I too am in no mood to end architectural or usage retaliation. In fact, I think we are just getting started. The gall of these people has got to be mocked.
Why end it at all? The best end would be that the mosque becomes a place that tolerates the gay bar as much as the gay bar is willing to tolerate the mosque.
Virgins 72, a strip bar.
"Virgins 72, a strip bar."
That's sure to attract every single male Muslim on the East Coast--an absolute winner.
How about mushroom clouds over Mecca, Teheran, then Damascus?
Scott said...
I had to laugh when I read that, but it's sort of pointless.
You see, all male Muslims are straight.
Which is the origin of the saying over there, "Women are for babies, men are for pleasure".
Fred4Pres said...
...
The backers of this mosque are up to no good. I do not like it. I think it is inappropriate. It should not be located there (do you remember the outrage at Auchwitz when nuns...NUNS!!! had a little chappel there!).
Catholics died at Auschwitz, too, and Adolf saw the final realization of the New Order as the elimination of the Catholic Church in Europe. All the nuns just wanted to pray for everybody, but the Pope saw it as the wrong fight in the wrong place with the wrong people and talked them out of it.
We usually agree, but I think the motivation for the mosque is light years away from the nuns' motivation.
Make the rag heads reproduce another St. Sophia Church like they have been doing for 550 years. NYC Planning commission wins. A test based upon fake pride and fake counter-pride does not seem interesting today.
The mosque will build a wall.. and gay Muslims will tunnel under it trying to 'come out' to freedom ;)
The logo for Virgins 72 should be a cartoon of Mohammed with a boob instead of a bomb in his turban.
If they decide to stick with the gay bar idea they can call it Swish'Allah.
A downtown annex for Esposito?
The Ground Zero Victory Mosque is a well publicized example of a general phenomenon: Mosques bring trouble!
In Europe (and soon in America), wherever Mosques are built, the locals can say goodbye to their homes, streets, neighborhoods and eventually their towns.
More on Gays and Islam.
There isn't going to be any gay bar or strip club built near this mosque. Period.
Mohammed's Big Boy.
"There isn't going to be any gay bar or strip club built near this mosque. Period."
And even if it were, the tolerant Muslims at the mosque would be protesting and/or bombing it rather quickly.
And, TRO, the local people know it.
Baby Harp Seal Taxidermy and Hummingbird Tongue Pie Emporium?
What's next in the series that begins Ground Zero, mosque, gay bar...?
Using history as a guide, I'd say "beheadings".
Followed by "apologia for the beheaders".
I heard they only own half the land they need for this mosque. Anybody else hear that?
Judiciously applied fissile material. This country has faced a soi disant unstoppable killing machine before, yet hard radiation stopped them nicely.
wv: crime - no joke.
LOL, DBQ. ;-)
Yeah. I'll skip the lesson. No way are the liberals who make up the zoning authority going to approve a gay bar next to a mosque, though. You know, that just wouldn't be tolerant!
@Brother AllenS:
"There isn't going to be any gay bar or strip club built near this mosque. Period."
Of course. The City of New York regulates the location of these types of businesses because they tend to degrade the quality of life of the surrounding neighborhoods.
Mosques which constitute intentionally provocative and inflammatory expressions of Muslim triumphalism, located a short distance from where Muslims killed 3,000 innocent people while praising God? Can't stop that, it's an infringement of their First Amendment rights.
Seems clear to me.
I think a Bahai center which actually represents the oneness of the human family and which has been persecuted in Iran would be a contrast and a challenge to the mosque and theso-called moderates.
DBQ, you beat me to it. This ain't no class and Althouse ain't no professor here, just a knowledgeable woman with points of view.
"You really miss being in school and teaching don't you?"
It's nice to be queen.
There's already an off-track betting parlor on that block, and an "Amish Grocery." It's a sacred off-track betting parlor, no doubt, where all profits go to the families of 9-11 victims.
The gay bar thing is funny, but is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than islam is? Should gay bars be built beside every church?
Teacher! Teacher! Dust Bunny Queen is creating a classroom disturbance!
Teacher's pet!!
;-)
The gay bar thing is funny, but is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than islam is?
Seriously how can you even ask that question with a straight face?
The Hamwitchcraft Deli.
This can all stop when people stop caring. And not one minute sooner.
There are two churches as close to Ground Zero as this Mosque. But they have both been there a very long time and there is no Islamic project of this size ($100 million budget) without some terrorist connection.
Hoosier Daddy, have you ever been outside of Indiana? Do you have gay muslim friends? Have men made passes at you in the Arab world?
Is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than Islam? Believe it or not, most muslim countries are not obsessed with condemning homosexuality. The repressive regimes are repressive towards one and all. America is the freest country on earth, but it's not because the Christian right is in charge. Actually, quite the opposite. If gays hadn't fought for their rights in the 60s and 70s, it wouldn't have been a (closeted) priest that gave it to them.
And by the way, shouldn't we be lobbying for every hand job parlor and strip club within a 200 meter radius of ground zero to be shut down, as it might offend somebody?
Hoosier Daddy, have you ever been outside of Indiana?
Yes.
Do you have gay muslim friends?
No.
Have men made passes at you in the Arab world?
No.
Is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than Islam? Believe it or not, most muslim countries are not obsessed with condemning homosexuality.
Of course they aren't. They just think its dandy.
Just for the record Monty, I don't have any gay Christian friends either. The gay people I do know are either atheists or agnostic.
Islamists want a mosque at ground zero to make a statement. Muslim gay bar is trying to make a statement.
Why propose an end to this when the mosque started it? The statement the mosque makes is very clear.
The gay bar is a statement that the mosque wants a privilege of a free society, but would be appalled if another establishment has the same rights as it.
This blog recently has gone from common sense to pedantic games. The intellectual BS of recent posts is insulting.
Fred4Pres wrote:
but I am digusted by liberal politicians falling over one another trying to show how understanding they are.
Why are we the ones who have to show how understanding we are? It's almost like we're trying to make amends for doing something wrong.
When, if it's a question of being understanding you'd think that those planning the mosque, upon hearing the outroar over it's building would say, that there was no offense inteneded and to show it we'll build the mosque in a less confrontational place.It almost sounds like they're trying to provoke an (outrageous response). How understanding of them.
Tell you what...instead of writing an essay on "retaliatory architecture," perhaps someone can explain how the guy who was a waiter in 2002 suddenly has almost $5 million to start the mosque, how his promises to build it only with domestic investment have already been broken, and how building the mosque IN AND OF ITSELF isn't some sort of "retaliatory architecture" IN THE FIRST PLACE.
You don't get to arbitrarily decide where to draw the line at who is retaliating against whom. If you think that it is called the "VICTORY Mosque" by accident, then quite frankly your cognitive abilities are seriously in question.
edutcher, I was not sufficiently clear. Let me explain.
I do not think Catholic Nuns praying and having a convent next to Auchwitz is a provocative act. You are absolutely correct in what you said. My point was, why did the convent have to go, but this mosque is okay? I do not recall Bloomberg or others supporting this mosque standing up for the sisters.
So we are still in agreement.
MontyMonty said: "Believe it or not, most muslim countries are not obsessed with condemning homosexuality. The repressive regimes are repressive towards one and all."
Such a stunning display of ignorance by a committed leftist. I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you.
jr565--BINGO!
The New York Daily News:
ALBANY - Gov. Paterson said Tuesday the developers of the mosque near Ground Zero might consider moving the project - and even floated the idea of offering them state land.
...
Believe it or not, most muslim countries are not obsessed with condemning homosexuality.
Well for giggles, I typed LGBT rights in [insert country] and entered Morroco, Algeria, Lybia, UAE, Yemen, Egypt and lo and behold, they all forbid homosexuality either by fine, prison time or execution. I left out Iran and Saudi Arabia as they were a given on thier record.
Indonesia on the other hand has no restrictions except for the Acech region which is governed by Sharia law.
The gay bar thing is funny, but is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than islam is?
Same-sex intercourse carries the death penalty in five officially Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, and Yemen. [3] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban, and in Iraq under a 2001 decree by Saddam Hussein. Yes, that Sadaam Hussein (the ones the left sent human shields to ostensibly protect).
Christianity may not have the nicest things to say about homosexuality, but last I heard, the Vatican wasn't putting it's gays to death.
Montagne Montaigne wrote:
"The gay bar thing is funny, but is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than islam is? Should gay bars be built beside every church?"
Is persecution more tolerant than stoning? Historically Christianity has to be seen as more tolerant toward homosexual acts than Islam. (I use the term homosexual acts rather than homosexuality or "gayness", if that's a word, for a reason. Homosexual activity is as old as recorded history, exclusive homosexuality is a fairly recent development.)
Historically, homosexual acts were treated as a venal sin to be dealt through confession and penance. The rule of St. Benedict specified that when monks were confessed they were to be routinely asked about impure thoughts or "shameful embraces." I doubt you can find any example of homosexual practice leading to the kinds of punishments meted out to heretics and free thinkers.
The Quran condemns homosexual activity numerous times, complete with the usual accompanying threats from Allah, and the Haditha expands on that condemnation and specifies earthly punishment as well - get caught with one of your own sex and its death by stoning, no ifs ands or buts (forgive the pun). The idea of two men living together as a married couple is so alien to Islam that it isn't even considered.
I'm Episcopalian. The rector of my church is gay. NBFD.
jr565 wrote "but last I heard, the Vatican wasn't putting it's gays to death."
Too busy putting them in holy orders...
I heard some caller on a radio show the other make a point that sounded paranoid....
What if we do get those towers rebuilt? What if the best place to unload and detonate a suitcase nuke is in the mosque just two blocks from the tower? How hard would it be to get a nuke from the port to the mosque in a cab?
It sounded paranoid... until it started to sound sane.
Btw, my suggested name for the new bar: The Atul Box
There is a lot of homo horse play in Arab countries.
An older friend of mine who worked for several U.S. government agencies and who was close to retirement, was gay in the middle east. He absolutely loved it there for all the action he got. He could screw around with twenty something guys. There premarital sex with a women is frowned on (severely) and a young man must be able to support a wife to have one. So it is not unusual for even straight guys to be gay for a while. Think of it like prison.
On various government assignments and job postings, he screwed his way across Iran (pre Islamic revolution), Saudi, Bahrain, Kuwait, and Egypt.
I am not sure that means the Middle East is more tollerant of homosexuality. The penalty of getting caught is still harsh (depending on the country). But the locals seems willing to pretend it is not happening.
I was single at the time, but since I wanted to keep my job and not interested in the activities noted above, I limited myself to the occasional female western tourist I met, a few clandestine affairs with local women willing to take risks, and trips abroad.
As it is a reasonably free country, provided the legal requirements are met, I have no problem with whatever someone wants to build or open on private property next door to (or nearby) something else.
Montagne Montaigne --
"The gay bar thing is funny, but is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than islam is?"
Yeah. Didn't I just read about a couple of gays having a stone wall pushed over on them somewhere in Jersey and that hanging of four homosexuals in Nebraska was horrific.
What a load of bullshit you wrote.
And by the way, shouldn't we be lobbying for every hand job parlor and strip club within a 200 meter radius of ground zero to be shut down, as it might offend somebody?
Actually I thought the counter protest in front of the church to be pretty funny. Then again, Christian opposition to strip clubs isn't exactly a monopoly. Feminists hate them too albeit for different reasons.
Keep in mind that tolerance does not mean acceptance, rather, it means I won't infringe your right to do something but it doesn't mean I can't protest it either.
You can tell a lot about a country on how it treats their women and/or gays. That's why I could give a flying fuck if they get their stupid mosque built or not. Anyone without the good sense to leave that religion a long time ago after all the crap they've been pulling for the past 30 yrs doesn't deserve a mosque built anywhere.
Somali Pirate Ship.
Too busy putting them in holy orders...
Cute but I think many gays would object to your lumping them in with pedophiles.
Just sayin.
That one was for you Garage since you're a Madison guy.
*hugs garage* :)
Fred4Pres wrote "There is a lot of homo horse play in Arab countries."
Juts goes to show Christians have no lock on the "Worst Hypocrites of All Time" award.
wv: resaphou - a spurious pretender to the Peacock Throne
Juts goes to show Christians have no lock on the "Worst Hypocrites of All Time" award.
Indeed. I leave that one to mega-wealthy Democrats who vote for higher taxes while avoiding paying thier own on luxury items.
"Cute but I think many gays would object to your lumping them in with pedophiles."
It was just meant as a humorous off-the-cuff. However, I think recent surveys have shown that a much larger proportion of ordained priests and lay monks are gay than the population at large, and that only small number of priests can be shown to be pedophiles.
HD, you didn't mean to equate homosexuality with pedophilia, did you? Surely not.
Just sayin'
wv: boyinopa - you just can't make this shit up! Its amazing.
*not releasing from Darcy's hug*
A Unitarian Church? Hell's Angel hang-out? Orthodox Synagogue?
Or how about we build nothing at all at Ground Zero for a while beyond what has already gone up. A general moratorium.
The intolerance and bigotry on display toward Muslim in this case is just one more example of racism within conservatism and especially within the Tea Party.
New polls provide hard evidence of the Tea party racism.
Fuck, I just read some garage I agree with on every point.
K*thy,
Schumer and Weiner both came out big time for the mosque. Bloomberg is about as liberal as you can get and very much into the Nanny State policies of the libs. How could you miss that?
Yeah! Excellent! An outlaw biker bar right next door the the Ground Zero mosque.
The muezzin's call drowned out with the ever-lovin' roar of big-ass V-Twin muscle.
Bigot cons love to take words out of context.
What I said was, if there is intolerance towards homosexuality in the Muslim world, it's part and parcel with regimes that are intolerant as a whole, not necessarily because of Islam. Can anyone tell me how gays are treated in North Korea?
If there is freedom in the United States, it sure as hell ain't because of Christianity. And I'm all for building gay bars next to churches (within legal zoning), mosques, day care centers, and conservative think tanks. And let's have gay pride marches on Easter sunday right when church lets out, too.
Let's let the people who own buildings in NYC build whatever the hell they want in them, too. And quit using 9/11 as a political weapon.
The priest that preformed our marriage ceremony was definitely gay. But he is an honorable celibate man of God who would not violate his vows. Unlike a priest that was in my parish in the 1960’s who had a girlfriend and a kid in the Red Hook Projects.
A weak and sinful man will find the opportunity for an occasion of sin no matter what their sexual orientation.
HD, you didn't mean to equate homosexuality with pedophilia, did you? Surely not.
No, you did despite your subsequent wriggling out of the comment by citing some anecdotal survey on the sexual preferences of the clergy.
Carry on.
I'm trying to figure out why this is a good satire? There are gay bars all over Manhattan. I doubt the proponents of the mosque would mind. A Conservative Blogger's Curious Satire: Ground Zero Gay Bar
AlphaGerbil is sniffing around the entrance to his burrow.
garage,
Let go. It's my turn.
Nuh uh.
Montagne Montaigne wrote: "The repressive regimes are repressive towards one and all.
ROFLOL.
On the other hand, the members of the religion of peace want to destroy our civilization and remake it in the image of their medieval barbarism.
I am speaking specifically of the people in charge of this project, and in particular of radical Islamic Iman Feisal Abdul Rauf.
Useful idiots like Montagne Montaigne will provide them the rope to hang us with because it is more important to him to stand with our enemies than with the people of New York who find it genuinely repugnant and evil to place this thumb in the eye to the dead in this location.
What I said was, if there is intolerance towards homosexuality in the Muslim world, it's part and parcel with regimes that are intolerant as a whole, not necessarily because of Islam.
Funny how those repressive regimes which I mentioned coincidently happen to be Muslim. Unfortunaly, even secular Muslim nations seem to be heavily influenced by Islamic intolerance toward homosexuality.
If there is freedom in the United States, it sure as hell ain't because of Christianity.
If you actually knew anything about the Abolitionist movement or The Civil Rights Movement you'd realize what a ridiculous statement that is.
Lookee here, AL makes a re-appearance touting some of that quality Think Progress work.
They apparently think that very real instances of individuals crashing tea party rallies, or organized efforts at doing so are some kind of conspiracy. Apparently "facts" are now conspiratorial to the fevered liberal mind.
You're a hoot BetaLib.
I'm no friend of Christianity. But anybody with any sense of the trends of history can see that Christendom is a spent force compared to Church in 15th Century Europe, and it has been since Napoleon. Enlightenment humanism is the dominant intellectual force in the West, and it will continue to reign, unless Islam is allowed to erode our culture.
Pollo
I like it. I'd like to see feet on the ground offering up VIP passes on the street to the "Cockswain". Heh
Trooper, since useful idiots are giving cover to this people who are hostile to our society and freedoms (and abuse those freedoms for their own ends) it is our job to use our rights to free speech and the ballot to get the message out there.
Feisal Abdul Rauf is not a radical Islamist, unless "radical" is just another word for Muslim.
I'm sorry if the role of Christianity in the gay rights movement has escaped me. I have no idea how I could have missed it-- possibly because it doesn't exist.
MontyMonty tried: "What I said was, if there is intolerance towards homosexuality in the Muslim world, it's part and parcel with regimes that are intolerant as a whole, not necessarily because of Islam."
Really? Do you have any evidence that supports this claim? I mean, you might be right. I can't imagine Islam could possibly be used to repress or punish homosexuals. It's just a gubmint thing right?
Lefties and their ignorance/lies about Islam. Funny stuff.
Serious question Monty, how much does it suck, in 2010, to not be able to use the internet to bolster your arguments or even grab a quick clue about the subjects into which you blunder?
A lot things seem to escape you, Montagne Montaige.
That's a lie. This so called man of God is a front man for the religion of peace to put a smooth face on evil.
What are they going to do in this mosque? Behead people who draw cartoons? Stone women who look at another man? Crush homosexuals under a wall for simply existing? Rip the clits out of little babies? Marry nine year olds?
Or are they just going to sit around and say how all of that is really a great thing and someday soon Sharia law will come to the United States so all those wonderful things can happen in a city near you. All within inches of where 3,000 Americans were murdered by their brethren.
Keep defending the indefensible. Keep excusing the evil. Keep sticking a thumb in our eye. Keep pushing
David Frum says don't worry, they are just run the mill huskster Arab promoters:
But here’s the problem. The more I read about Feisal Rauf, the more I see a very dangerous kind of man … no, not the Islamic extremist kind of dangerous … but rather the kind of guy who can convincingly say, “$100 million? That’s nothing! I have a cousin in Abu Dhabi who could write a check for $100 million himself! Don’t worry about anything, leave it to me, I’ll get the money, that’s the easy part. You get the zoning rights, we’ll buy you out, all cash, easiest money you ever made.” The streets of New York are littered with the carcasses of dead developers who met and believed the Feisal Raufs of this world ….
$100 million is not so easily raised, not even in Abu Dhabi, not in the middle of a global commercial property slump, not with the Manhattan real estate market in a shambles. Believe it or not, rich people in the Persian Gulf are not yearning to plunge into a U.S. political controversy.
So here’s my guess about the future. The money will not be found. The mosque will not be built. I have no idea whether the el-Gamals were praying men before they met Feisal Rauf. But I bet they are praying very hard right now
I normally do not say I hope Frum is right, but I hope he is right about this.
Trooper, so this promoter is either an Islamist, a perpetrator of frauds, or both.
Fred4Pres wrote: "this promoter is either an Islamist, a perpetrator of frauds, or both."
From the atheist standpoint its both every time.
wv: ungelt - what eunuchs want to be.
Paul Zrimsek said...
The logo for Virgins 72 should be a cartoon of Mohammed with a boob instead of a bomb in his turban.
Or they could use this.
Fred4Pres said...
edutcher, I was not sufficiently clear. Let me explain.
I do not think Catholic Nuns praying and having a convent next to Auchwitz is a provocative act. You are absolutely correct in what you said. My point was, why did the convent have to go, but this mosque is okay? I do not recall Bloomberg or others supporting this mosque standing up for the sisters.
No problem. My bad for reading you wrong.
I'm sorry if the role of Christianity in the gay rights movement has escaped me. I have no idea how I could have missed it-- possibly because it doesn't exist.
It also escaped you that 'gay rights' isn't the defining moment of freedom in America.
Loved it, edutcher. Bought the shirt!
If they ever get the mosque built I'll wear it to the dedication ceremony.
Fair enough, Hoosier. But how about "Freedom of Religion." Is that part of the essential moment of freedom in America?
You seemed to have missed that one.
...or you could just relax and have a laugh.
HD wrote: "It also escaped you that 'gay rights' isn't the defining moment of freedom in America."
Not to mention the considerable number of clergy (admittedly mostly Protestant, and mostly Episcopal at that) who advocate for gay rights within a Christian context.
"...or you could just relax and have a laugh."
Maybe I will. Maybe I'll doodle Mohammad.
Althouse,
You're an unapologetic South Park fan, so you should be able to see where this is going:
Phase 1: Build mosque.
Phase 2: Build gay bar.
Phase 3: ???
Phase 4: Profit
From the (allegedly) official account of the Park 51 project:
Park51: .@greggutfeld You're free to open whatever you like. If you won't consider the sensibilities of Muslims, you're not going to build dialog
Me: Imagine that.
Fair enough, Hoosier. But how about "Freedom of Religion." Is that part of the essential moment of freedom in America?
Yes. I don't think there should be a state sanctioned religion of any kind. Being a student of history I am well aware of the volatile mix of politics and religion.
I think you guys are missing the point. Apparently, few actual lawyers have frequented "blawg" today. Having hurdled the LSAT analogies section, they might be more adept at inductive reasoning and syllogistic thinking.
The point is, whereas a mosque, in theory, offends the senses of ground zero visitors, and further, a gay bar offends the senses of those who would frequent a mosque, what, in turn, if built, would offend the senses of gay bar patrons.
I would suggest the appropriate edifice to continue the series would be a field office of the Family Research Council. This has the additional benefit, that were we to continue this thought experiment, we could simply offend Tony Perkins with another gay bar, thus creating a repeating loop of gay bars/FRC offices, which, ironically, would be denoted by a "straight bar" above the two.
Done. I win.
The gay bar thing is funny, but is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than islam is?
>>>
Christians don't want gays to get married.
Muslims don't want gays to be alive.
...
Is that so hard to understand?
Quaestor said...
Loved it, edutcher. Bought the shirt!
Gave one to my brother-in-law a couple of Christmases ago and it's one of his faves.
Sorry, should have said that is the Twitter account. Lively, eye-opening discussion going on with @Park51 there if anyone is interested.
@ Tim McG There are two churches as close to Ground Zero as this Mosque.
And of course, there is St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church which got flattened by WTC2.
It was there a long time too. Only it isn't anymore. Do Mayor Bloomberg and the Port Authority care? And the community landmark or whatever council (since I think it was an historical building).
Darcy,
Is it me, or does their use of the word "programming" on that twitter feed not sit well anyone else?
@GMay:
I'm glad they have participated in the dialogue. It is very interesting to read what they've actually said today on that feed. The zoning authority is going to be in a pickle if Gutfeld is serious. And the Park 51 project so far isn't ready to tackle the uproar.
I didn't see "programming" in the feed.
Montagne: Is Christianity more tolerant of homosexuality than Islam? Believe it or not, most muslim countries are not obsessed with condemning homosexuality.
They just throw homosexuals in ditches and topple brick walls onto them. No biggie...
America is the freest country on earth, but it's not because the Christian right is in charge. Actually, quite the opposite.
Actually no. The foundation of our Constitution and our Rule of Law is a child of judeo-christian traditions and values.
And it was those pesky conservative christian abolitionists that started the anti-slavery movement.
So you really dont know what you're talking about. Your bigotry and hatred of Christians has clouded your ability to reason.
Another analogy (from a devout Muslim):
"Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?"
Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wEr71gbF
Funky Cold Medina
I mean here.
Enlightenment humanism is the dominant intellectual force in the West, and it will continue to reign, unless Islam is allowed to erode our culture.
I dont see how it can be stopped. Islam is the barbarian at the gate, Enlightment Humanism is the naive virgin who has no clue what goes on outside the walls.
After the Libtards watch their children choke to death on their own blood, they'll come to me and my kind, begging to waterboard Jihadis.
I'll refer them to the ICC. Perhaps they can cajole the UN to issue a strong condemnation.
In its current form, the West does not deserve to survive. I only hope I get to see the parasites who destabilized it run around like little cockroaches before Islam stomps them out.
I'm bringing the popcorn!
I'm bringing the popcorn!
I'll make caramel corn!
Queer Mecca in TriBeCa
Next - Israeli embassy on the other side, and across the street a memorial to all those executed by Sharia Law for non-crimes.
Yes, a center to non-belief would be a better idea. There could be an exchange of ideas or some such.
The bar idea is awesome.
Humor squarely lies in the conservative arena these days, the Daily Show and copious clapter notwithstanding.
Wait a sec... weren't the 9/11 attacks perpetrated because of the sexual liberty taken by gay people and Leftists?
At least I remember that being what Jerry Falwell said, with nary of murmur of rebuke from the conservative establishment.
You'd hope that now, ten years later, those on the Right would have learned the difference between freedom-threatening violent Islamo-fanatic terrorists and freedom-loving peaceful not-particularly-religious gay people.
Obama favors the Ground Zero Mosk.
Your bounty of ideas for retaliatory expressive architecture cheers me greatly.
I'm with Trooper on this one.
Just in case nobody has dared to mention it..
I'm a Cristian.. and Muslims are not.
That alone is good enough for me.
No Mosk for you.
Coming from Garage @1:00 pm.. this means a lot.
You can tell a lot about a country on how it treats their women and/or gays. That's why I could give a flying fuck if they get their stupid mosque built or not. Anyone without the good sense to leave that religion a long time ago after all the crap they've been pulling for the past 30 yrs doesn't deserve a mosque built anywhere.
I could not have said it better myself.
Move The Vault next to the Mosque so that the Mosque is in the middle. Gay bar to the left, The Vault to the right.
What's next in the series that begins Ground Zero, mosque, gay bar...?
"9/11 Lawyers Center".
With billboard
outside:
Have YOU been exposed to 9/11 dust? Short of breath? Gained weight? Depressed?
Step right in!
A big payday awaits!
If you are a Hero - meaning a uniformed government employee - double payment and retirement at full active duty pay could await!!!
Step right in and contact the representative of the law firm of Schoen, Shyster, and Simon!
==============
Next to them...."Sacred Ground Artifacts, Inc."
Where inside you have velvet paintings of the cop and fireman Heroes who saved NY for sale. Commemorative coins of firefighters. A 14KT gold-encased coin honoring the 2700 lesser human beings. Posters of Rudy Giuliani and all the guest celebs given VIP vists in the early days. Speeches of Rudy and a recital of all the names of the dead combined on one easy-to-purchase CD for only 29.95!! For patriotic Americans, many souvenirs of the American Churchill, George Bush, are available!
For our Muslim visitors, copies of his "Religion of Peace" and "Diversity is Our Greatest Stength" speeches are available.
Next to them "ACLU 9/11 Reception Center for Trial Guests
A small discrete center planned for family & guests of the alledged terrorists like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. ACLU members will supply catered halal meals, a prayer room for those not wishing to go to Mosque of women barred from mosque.
The gay bar can be called "The Sassy Chique"
I'm going to win the thread. The name of the bar?
The Happy Goat.
At least I remember that being what Jerry Falwell said, with nary of murmur of rebuke from the conservative establishment.
As I always say, liberals are people who don't remember anything.
Wait a minute..
A gay bar is not "retaliation".
There was a World Trade Center attack in 1993.. Its complete destruction in 2001 along with the murder of thousands.. and now in 2010 a Mosque.
A gay bar is retaliation?.. are you kidding me?
weren't the 9/11 attacks perpetrated because of the sexual liberty taken by gay people and Leftists? At least I remember that being what Jerry Falwell said, with nary of murmur of rebuke from the conservative establishment.
Why rebuke whats true? Why do you think they call us the Great Satan to begin with? Its because we allow women, no matter how loose, to sexually express themselves in the way they dress. Its because we allow gays to exist. Its because we allow athiests to mock God.
You'd hope that now, ten years later, those on the Right would have learned the difference between freedom-threatening violent Islamo-fanatic terrorists... and freedom-loving peaceful not-particularly-religious gay people.
Senseless strawman. No one has conflated Jihadis with Gays. Recheck your talking points, I think you were given some typos... your statement makes no sense.
Either that or you've got the Dani Disease: Islam murders women for showing too much ankle, Islam murders gays for being gay... and you segue into conservative bashing.
You'll be ranting about Bush even as Islam saws off your head.
And spare me the bullshit about "moderate" Islam. The "moderates" outnumber the radicals 100,000 to 1. Islam would not remain hijacked without the explicit permission of "moderates".
re·tal·i·a·tion
Show Spelled[ri-tal-ee-ey-shuhn]
–noun the act of retaliating; return of like for like; reprisal.
A gay bar is just a puny little cry for mercy.
Darcy,
Only a couple of examples. You have to click through the whole list.
@mobius1ski @ylove We'd be really interested in developing youth programming. Coffee sometime soon?
.@moople72 We've just started. We're engaging 9/11 families and working to develop a small memorial and intercultural programming
Garage: Anyone without the good sense to leave that religion a long time ago after all the crap they've been pulling
Garage: [trash talk, chest thumping]
Islam: "Convert or die."
Garage: "So do burkas come in sizes?..."
"What's next in the series that begins (1) Ground Zero, (2) mosque, (3) gay bar...?"
How about:
4: Profit!
or
4: Chabad telethon!
BTW I think its kind of cowardly to suggest gays take up the front lines in a battle that should really be led by the churches.
If cardinal O'Connor was still with us that mosque would not have made it this far.
He would have been on that pulpit with the cameras rolling, whipped up this town against it.. that would have been the end of it.
Everybody is so afraid.. its like only the gays are gutsy/ballsy enough to speak up?
"I'm really not in the mood for ending retaliation."
Some gestures ought to be grand.
I'm not as opposed to the mosque as all that. It offends me FAR less than the various plans to make ground zero a museum of American imperialism and injustice, for example.
On the naming thing... the winner was the second response to Gutfield's post on Big Hollywood.
Alla Awk Bar
"It should not be located there (do you remember the outrage at Auchwitz when nuns...NUNS!!! had a little chappel there!)."
I think it is an apples and oranges situation. MUslims were not a significant part of the 9/11 experience. Christian Poles were a significant part not just of the number killed at Auschwitz (140-150,000) but also the victims along with Soviet POWs of enduring horrendous conditions, as slave laborers in the low millions in satellite factories and work camps.
In one of his 1st acts Pope John Paul held mass at Auschwitz for ALL victims. A cross was erected shortly thereafter. Then the nuns came in and set up a memorial convent. Many Jewish activist groups then began pressuring the Polish government and the Pope for "diluting Our Brand" - meaning the representation that Auschwitz was All About the Jews.
The Pope caved to Jewish pressure and ordered the nuns out of the Auschwitz camp area and bused in to do their memorial duties henceforth. The Polish and Russian!! governments have dug in and resisted Jewish activist's efforts to remove the Pope John Paul Cross and efforts to minimize the harm done to Catholic Poles and Soviet POWs in the Auschwitz system of camps.
Apples and oranges because not only is the mosque not a commemorative place to 9/11 primarily, it doesn't pretend there were significant numbers of Muslim victions, and is located blocks away from the site - not inside the side as the nun's convent was.
That said, a clearer case can be made that the nuns and the cross belonged at Auschwitz than a mosque "belongs" at Ground Zero.
Were Jewish groups up in arms about "Their Holocaust Symbol" being diluted by remembrance of other groups or presence of non-Jews on site as memorialists? And many of those same groups silent on or supportive of Muslim's religious freedom to get a permanent 9/11 presence?
Of course!
Many of the same people signing letters in support of the Imam were signing letters to the Pope telling him to remove the nuns and tear down the Auschwitz Cross.
They would say "apples and oranges:, too. For different reasons than mine, obviously.
"MUslims were not a significant part of the 9/11 experience."
Err, OBVIOUSLY they were a significant part as the hijackers. But the 9/11 experience did not entail dozens, hundreds, to say nothing of hundreds of thousands of Muslim victims at Ground Zero.
"weren't the 9/11 attacks perpetrated because of the sexual liberty taken by gay people and Leftists? At least I remember that being what Jerry Falwell said, with nary of murmur of rebuke from the conservative establishment.""
My pastor rebuked Falwell on Sunday morning from the pulpit. Because what Falwell SAID was not that the Islamists involved in 9-11 did it because of homosexuality, but that GOD did it because of homosexuality.
If someone is going to slam "the conservative establishment" by smearing them with what Falwell said, they should at least get it right.
The "conservative establishment" would be pretty silly to rebuke the statement that 9-11 was a response to American sexual license in any case since that was at least one of Bin Laden's excuses. That and the murder of 650,000 Iraqi children.
I swear it's like the world didn't even exist 10 years ago. All of existence fell down the memory hole.
"I'm going to win the thread. The name of the bar?"
I like mine better, AllenS:
The Camel Hump
Garage: [trash talk, chest thumping]
Islam: "Convert or die."
Garage: "So do burkas come in sizes?..."
I triple dog dare you to dress up as as muslim terrorist trying to gain entry onto my property demanding me to convert or die!
If the idea is to place an building insulting to its neighbor, then the gay bars insults the mosque. What to insult the gay bar? A Fred Phelps outpost perhaps? Then another gay bar or a mosque to insult Fred Phelps.
I'm not as opposed to the mosque as all that. It offends me FAR less than the various plans to make ground zero a museum of American imperialism and injustice, for example.
Amen. There are any number of things that the left does, marrying as a political statement, all the PC crap, false accusations of racism, blaming Bush and taking no responsibility, pervs like Ritmo looking at pictures of my daughter online, spending our country into oblivion, allowing and encouraging mass illegal immigration, for beginners that offend me much more than building this mosque.
@ Dead Julius with nary of murmur of rebuke from the conservative establishment.
Julius, this is why you guys are seen as such idiots by many.
Next thing you know, you'll be telling us that the conservative establishment brings box lunches to Fred Phelps & Family.
The series is: Ground Zero, mosque, gay bar, those assholes at that Fred Phelps church that protest soldier funerals.
Yes - A Fred Phelps gay bar sandwich!!
garage mahal wrote:
Anyone without the good sense to leave that religion a long time ago after all the crap they've been pulling for the past 30 yrs doesn't deserve a mosque built anywhere.
Ah, but haven't you heard? Apostasy is death. You don't leave Islam if you want to keep your life. Of course in the US you can leave Islam and nothing bad will happen to you, but in Saudi Arabia? You're playing with fire.
Hitchens, as does Althouse, appears to criticize the heretofore anti-mosque methods.
Mau-Mauing the Mosque
Fen wrote:
Wait a sec... weren't the 9/11 attacks perpetrated because of the sexual liberty taken by gay people and Leftists?
At least I remember that being what Jerry Falwell said, with nary of murmur of rebuke from the conservative establishment.
Falwell was talking about why god allowed this to happen and we he forsook us, not why the terorist attacked us. I don't agree with the sentiment, but it's a separate question.
Ignoring what Falwell said, why do they hate us? Well the latest No. 2 in AL Qaeda appears to hate us because of our libertine lifestyle. The booze, the rock and roll and the topless women, at least as per his mom.
"Shukrijumah's mother, Zurah Adbu Ahmed, said Thursday that her son frequently talked about what he considered the excesses of American society - such as alcohol and drug abuse and women wearing skimpy clothes - but that he did not condone violence. She also said she has not had contact with her son for several years."
This is a common refrain from these zealots. They literally hate our excesses. Mark Steyn had a great article about this that describes Sayyid Qutb the father of Wahabbism basically recoiling from American culture in 1949 after witnessing our "debauchery":
"A few decades back, a young middle-class Egyptian spending some time in the U.S. had the misfortune to be invited to a dance one weekend and was horrified at what he witnessed:
"The room convulsed with the feverish music from the gramophone. Dancing naked legs filled the hall, arms draped around the waists, chests met chests, lips met lips . . ."
Where was this den of debauchery? Studio 54 in the 1970s? Haight-Ashbury in the summer of love? No, the throbbing pulsating sewer of sin was Greeley, Colo., in 1949. As it happens, Greeley, Colo., in 1949 was a dry town. The dance was a church social. And the feverish music was "Baby, It's Cold Outside," written by Frank Loesser and sung by Esther Williams and Ricardo Montalban in the film "Neptune's Daughter." Revolted by the experience, Sayyid Qutb decided that America (and modernity in general) was an abomination, returned to Egypt, became the leading intellectual muscle in the Muslim Brotherhood, and set off a chain that led from Qutb to Zawahiri to bin Laden to the Hindu Kush to the Balkans to 9/11."
I don't know what's next in the sequence, but a gay bar next to a mosque has the benefit of annoying just about EVERYONE who annoys me.
So I'm all for it. ;)
Fen said...
And spare me the bullshit about "moderate" Islam. The "moderates" outnumber the radicals 100,000 to 1. Islam would not remain hijacked without the explicit permission of "moderates".
There is no such thing as a moderate muslim. Has never existed and will never exist. It's a leftard fabrication used to prop their ideological acceptance of a religion as a means to use against conservatives and conservativism. Why do leftards embrace and frankly defend this particular religion by using the fictitious moderate muslim as some sort of stalwart against his moon god religion that was originated by using violence and deceit as it's central dogma? Leftards could care two shits about religion of any kind, accept for NewAge quackery and yet there they are, the great guardians of Allah and his horde of sub-human filthy animals, the front line tools for a religion that would see them suffer the same fate of 3000 Americans and several dozen beheaded abroad without a blink of an eye and all for the good of their moon god. Leftards are a pustule of miasmic thinking. They are degenirates to the core. A base and vile follower of base and vile ideas. Anyone who would defend them and their ideology is basically the same. Spittle.
-cont-
To follow up on the previous post, the founder of Wahabbism found a dance in a dry town in a church social playing the song "Baby It's Cold Outside" to be so outrageous that he fled back to his country decrying the lack of morality in America.
If Qutb could find "Baby It's Cold Outside to be outrageous imagine what he would think of gay pride parades, Girls Gone Wild, Hard Core Porn, San Francisco, women voting, women wearing thongs, women owning companies. As much as they hate us for our policies they hate us for being America.
Now, speaking of "they hate us for our policies" - is saying they hate us for our decadence any different really than saying they hate us for our policies? In the case of the foreign policy it's pretty disingenous because the lefties never actually mention what policies we should atone for. Isn't that kind of important? Because if we have to atone for a policy that insults someone in the Taliban or Al Qaeda who think "Baby It's Cold Outside" is decadent or who allow husbands to chop off the noses and ears of their wives when they anger them, why is that an example of a bad foreign policy? Who are THEY? And if they are pissed off does that mean the attack on the policy is justified?
Think if we used that logic in the abortion bombing debate. The abortion bomber hates us because of our abortion policies and thus is justified in bombing abortion clinics? Are pro choicers willing to change the "policies" because an extremist resorts to violence because of them?
Likewise, suppose the terrorists DO hate us because of our excesses. Which excess should we give up to placate terrorists?
Revenant said...
I don't know what's next in the sequence, but a gay bar next to a mosque has the benefit of annoying just about EVERYONE who annoys me.
So I'm all for it. ;)
HA!!! The Brass Rail East.
The Newt and Callista Gingrich Center for Traditional Marriage.
It can be right next door to the strip club that's already around the corner from the proposed Cordoba Center.
Fen said...
Garage: Anyone without the good sense to leave that religion a long time ago after all the crap they've been pulling
Garage: [trash talk, chest thumping]
Islam: "Convert or die."
Garage: "So do burkas come in sizes?..."
Well, it is Garage afterall. They don't burkas in his size and besides, he'd want it in white chiffon to accentuate his purity and his camel toe.
At least I remember that being what Jerry Falwell said, with nary of murmur of rebuke from the conservative establishment.
The White House condemned the remarks, as did William F. Buckley. The religious right was basically silent, though.
Another great gay bar name: The Folsom Street Fair, Cum one, cum all.
Tagline: Free ladies night regardless of gender, two for one shots, and alcohol might be served. Tah.
Here are some more:
The Pooftah Prophet
NAMBLA
The Boom Boom Room
Bottoms Up
The Burka Lounge
The Sinister Siddiq
Ramadan Den
72
C-fudd, don't you thing the Poles had it coming at Auschwitz? According to you and your butt buddy Patty Buchanan, WWII was a war of self-defense by Germany against Poland.
I don't care abut "ground zero" anymore, because New Yorkers didn't rebuild the Twin Towers or anything else there in 10 years. Apparently it wasn't very important to New Yorkers. So whatever! New York disgraced the USA by not rebuilding the Twin Towers better than before in short order. So, if they don't care about "ground zero", nor do I.
They've had a decade in New York to build a proper memoiral to 9/11 victims and rebuild the Twin Towers bigger and better than they were before. They failed the country. New York failed America. It's a shame. But I ain't gonna participate in anti-Muslim bigotry, and play along with ring-wingers who hate gay people but wanna use gay people to mess with Muslims. This is all very ridiculous. I am not offended by Muslims building a whatever they want near Ground Zero for the same reason I don't think Muslims should run around murdering people because of those Danish cartoons of Muhammed. What does bug me is that the Twin Towers were not rebuilt, and that no proper memorial was ever built at Ground Zero. New Yorkers let the nation down.
You fucking pussies having a fit cuz someone's building a mosque. This is the land of the free. People can build a mosque. What bugs me is that, a decade on, New York never rebuilt the Twin Towers. I thought they should've rebuilt the Twin Towers bigger and better than before.
May I speak for "lefties" everywhere? We support freedom of religion for Muslims in the same way we support freedom of religion for Christians; you're both wrong -- but Constitutionally protected.
What bugs me is that, a decade on, New York never rebuilt the Twin Towers.
Yes, we get it. The fact that you posted three comments in a row to say that exact same thing was hard to miss.
It took 9 years to build the WTC in the first place, when there were a lot fewer stakeholders involved. So settle down, Beavis; there will be new skyscrapers there soon enough.
Obama is sending the Muslim Imam behind the Ground Zero Mosque on a fund raising junket to the middle east..
Somebody wake me up from this nightmare.
When Mr Crowley (state department spokesman) announced the trip at the daily State Department briefing, he described Imam Feisal as a moderate who has already made two similar government-sponsored trips to Arab and Muslim countries.
Wow... Could you imagine Bush sending Robertson on a junket to promote Christianity?
Maybe I haven't been paying attention but.. How is Obama getting away with this?
..retaliatory expressive architecture has to end and how you propose to end it.
Draw on the cold war nuke reduction agreement methods..
They have to agree not to use the mosque as a brain washing madrasa..
They have allow observers in to make sure this is so.
They have to agree not to build any more mosques in downtown Manhattan..
and.. maybe somebody can suggest something else?
(PS.. to all my anti-mosque hommies..
This doesn't mean I've given up, I just want to pass the test ;)
Deborah,
I guess I'll have to share first prize with you.
Honey Baked Ham store.
Speaking of New York never rebuilding the WTC. Wouldn't that be funny if this mosque is built before they start construction on the WTC, or whatever it is ultimately going to become.
In other words, never rebuilding the church the collapsed but rebuilding the mosque. That is the priority. WTC, Not so much.
Think of the symbolism there.
Honey Baked Ham store.
LOL. Especially if they sell Hanukkah ham.
How about an art gallery, featuring images of Mohammed? Perhaps starting with the Dreaded Stick Figures of Blasphemy? All visible on the street.
http://everyonedrawmohammed.blogspot.com/search/label/Dreaded%20Stick%20Figures%20of%20Blasphemy
Indeed I have one particular masterpiece in mind: http://everyonedrawmohammed.blogspot.com/2010/05/another-cartoon_03.html
It’s a real trend setter. Maybe we could put that on a billboard, test how tolerant they all are.
How about a gay marriage wedding chapel a la Las Vegas?
Boo-ya!
Mick said...
Honey Baked Ham store.
Another gay bar name based off of yours:
The Pig in a Poke.
This was a much better piece and even had a valid message. just because you have the freedom to do something doesn't mean you should do it.
Pork Plant Opens Next to Mosque Next to Ground Zero http://rancornews.com/nymosque.html
I stole this name:
"Al Gay Da"
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