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236 comments:
1 – 200 of 236 Newer› Newest»Gollum!
Maybe hdhouse can lend them some of his Depends to soak up the oil.
Obama only promised to stop the rise of the oceans. He never said anything about cleaning up oil spills. And, anyway, that's not work fit for a Messiah, the One we were all waiting for.
He'd rather go golfing.
Best thing for The Won(tm) to do would be to show some concern, but then stay out of the way and let those who know what they are doing, do their jobs.
That would be entirely counter to his love of the spotlight and being the center of attention. By doing nothing, he keeps people like this commentator foolishly looking to him to do something. He knows zip about what should be done, you can be assured of that!
Ican't beieve the feds are sitting on permission to build up barrier islands. That's freaking criminal.
Have a meeting!
Gee, Skeletor sounds just like a Conservative - except we've been saying it for six weeks.
danielle said...
james carville is scary.
Many of us knew that 18 years ago.
I was thinking the other day about the Five Good Roman Emperors (my favorites being Hadrian and Trajan) and then about the really crappy ones. Now after witnessing this administration I'm beginning to understand what Romans thought about Commodous.
I agree Obama needs to get tougher with BP. And BP needs to stop lording it over the oil spill region as if they own it. They do not have the authority to keep reporters off of public lands, even if they are drenched in BP oil.
I wonder how many conservatives, though, know about the corruption of the leasing office under Bush and Cheney?
Do they know about the sex and drug parties under bush/Cheney at the Office of the Minerals Management Service?
No? How about the oil companies being able to draft the inspection reports?
Years of this sort of regulatory neglect and abuse created the conditions for the BP oil spill.
Maybe Republicans will learn from this that there are worse things than regulation - like oil spills. But I doubt it. They are anti-regulation zealots.
Come on. He voted "present."
His "just plug the hole," comment demonstrates his total lack of understanding anything except his own wonderfulness.
danielle said...
james carville is scary.
Many of us knew that 18 years ago.
I'll wager that 18 years ago danielle thought James was simply dreamy. But once you start hammering his Magnificence, well...
Wow, when they've lost James Carville...
I doubt that Fox News has reported on the Inspector General's report detailing corruption at Bush-Cheney's Office of Mineral Management that overseas offshore rigs.
"Regulators overseeing oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico reportedly allowed oil company officials to fill in their own inspection reports. According to the internal probe being released this week, oil officials sketched out their answers in pencil and turned them over to federal oversight officials, who then traced their answers in pen."
The Obama Energy taxes, supposedly for a few useless windmills plus lots more money to redistribute, needs its crisis du jour. As soon as this oil spill disaster is terrible enough, then maybe the White House will blame Bush and stop all offshore oil drilling. Carville is an old Clintonista.
AlphaLiberal has figured out a way to blame Bush for the oil spill and Obama's failure of leadership on the issue?!?
He should get an award. The new James Carville!
I wonder how many conservatives, though, know about the corruption of the leasing office under Bush and Cheney?
Obama was supposed to change how things were being done in Washington DC. So far the only change is the upward change in the national debt.
He's yours Alpha. Own it.
I love James. He's absolutely consistent. And, as a wise man once said, "I've seen unattractive before, but that's just circus ugly"
Here is another story on the corruption under Bush and Cheney at the government’s oil drilling regulator office. You will find a link to the IG report there.
"Now after witnessing this administration I'm beginning to understand what Romans thought about Commodous."
Yeah but at least he invented the toilet.
He'd rather go golfing
Actually, today Obama is in Cali fundraising for Boxer.
Then its off to Chicago for his second vacation since the oil spill.
And yes, he wont be at Arlington on Memorial Day.
Hope. Change.
By all means please explain what any President is supposed to do to plug a leak once it has been created by criminal negligence, slipshod and rushed drilling practices, and lax to incestuous regulation?
You guys are always going on about how business should not be regulated. They weren't! Now look what your ideology has wrought.
You tell us time and time again that we can trust the private sector to do a responsible job. They did not. They rushed the job, they cut corners and now we have millions of barrels destroying habitat, fishing grounds and whole communities.
Your ideology FAILED.
We're all going to die down here! (flickr.com)
"The President of the United States could have come down here. He could have been involved with the families of these 11 people. He could have commandeered the things. We could have sent the Woods Hole people. He could have sent the Scripps on research vessels in the Gulf of Mexico. He could have implemented a plan in anticipation of this. You know, right, he can't exactly fill the hole up. Last night I was on Larry King, the CEO, the former CEO of the Shell. They said they got 85 percent of the stuff cleaned up in the Gulf of Saudi Arabia. He could be commandeering tankers and making BP bring tankers in and clean this up. They could the deploying people to the coast right now. He could be deploying people to the coast. He could be with the corps of engineers and the Coast Guard with these people in Plaquemines Parish, doing something about these regulations."
Tim McGuire:
AlphaLiberal has figured out a way to blame Bush for the oil spill and Obama's failure of leadership on the issue?!? .
By all means, explain to us how Obama is responsible for the spill.
We have report upon report detailing scandalous corruption of the regulatory office for offshore drilling under Bush and Cheney.
Even Congressional Republicans acknowledge this reality:
“The report released today echoes the same problems that have been exhaustively reported on for years,” said Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), the top Republican on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. “In the course of a decade, we've had 10 IG reports, nine GAO reports and a report released just last year by Oversight Committee Republicans highlighting the failures within MMS, and yet it still took a massive catastrophe to get anyone to read these reports and agree on the need for a massive bureaucratic overhaul.” .
Democrats were ready to overhaul the office back when Bush was still in power. We've known about this corruption for years.
Bush. did. nothing.
In 1965 Habro started advertising on the afternoon TV shows like Chuck McCann and the Merry Mailman where they showed old 3 Stooges and Buck Rodgers and Abbott and Costello shows on WPIX. They were hawking yo-yo's and especially tops. You know the ones with the string that you would wind up and spin. We didn't have video games and Xbox, just a chunk of wood and a string.
Anyway we all bugged our parents until they got us the yo-yo's and the tops and we would bring them to school and at recess and have contests. You know with the yo-yos doing the "cats-cradle" and "walking the dog" and all that stuff. And seeing who could spin their top the longest.
I remember that Anthony Tringale was the best, man he could keep that top going for ten minutes or more. He was the best spinner I ever saw.
Until Alpha Liberal.
what AL said. a state run oil company like PEMEX would never have a spill. because if it did, AL's ideology would fail.
AlphaLibtard: By all means please explain what any President is supposed to do to plug a leak
No one bothers to read your puny propaganda, but since you're willing to play the foil:
Clean Water Act of 1990:
"requires the President to ensure effective and immediate removal of an oil discharge and, where there is substantial threat to public health or welfare, requires the President to require all Federal, State and private actions to remove the oil discharge or mitigate it"
That's James Carville? I thought I was looking at Jeff Dunham's Walter.
http://www.corvettevalley.com/gallery/data/500/jeff-dunham-vlg-10a_widec.jpg
BP's actions were probably negligent and possibly criminal. The real joke is the liability cap for BP (75 million). You want to see the discipline of the market in effect? Lift the liability cap.
Carville may be wrong about government running the show (they know less than BP), but I can really understand why he's upset. He's watching his home state being destroyed by a slow motion toxic invader brought by the actions of other countrymen. This is a slow motion tragedy.
You tell us time and time again that we can trust the private sector to do a responsible job. They did not. They rushed the job, they cut corners and now we have millions of barrels destroying habitat, fishing grounds and whole communities.
Yes we need the government to step in and do responsible things like they did with Iraq and Afghanistan, or enforcing border security, or being fiscally responsible or maintaining the solvency of Social Security or....
See how easy that works?
Then a couple of years later Hasbro came out with the Frisbee. You know that thing that looks like a plate that you could throw back and forth if you couldn't throw a baseball. You didn't need a lot of equipment, no ball or baseball gloves.
Just the Frisbee.
And a dog with a bandana.
Here are things I think Obama should be doing:
- Make sure the booms are deployed correctly. They are not and they are useless, allowing more damage. Take BP out of this role entirely and place it under the Coast Guard.
- Forbid any governmental agency from acting under BP orders. Forbid BP from further preventing the news media from visiting oil spill areas and press charges if you have to.
- Mobilize military assets for deep sea rescue and exploration (I believe this has been done).
- Order an immediate operational adequacy review of every BP rig in US waters. Shut them down if they are found not to be adequately maintained and prepared (The Atlantis rig is top of the list and should be shut down).
- Mobilize more scientific expertise for shutting down or managing these wells.
- Scrap plans to expand offshore drilling until an adequate regulatory structure is in place.
- Press charges against those who engaged in corrupt practices in the regulatory office. Review every file and start from scratch with every rig.
- Fire the head of the Coast Guard and consider firing Salazar.
- Fire the head of the Coast Guard and consider firing Salazar.
Would that free up a position they promised to Sestak?
"- Mobilize military assets for deep sea rescue and exploration (I believe this has been done)."
To do what?
AlphaLib, can you tell me how much state-run PEMEX paid to fishermen and businesses in damages for largest accidental oil spill ever?
Maybe Alpha with his cut and paste skills can point to the specific regulatory oversight which led to the explosion.
Because from what I have read, BP ignored warning signs which means, unless government regulators are permanently stationed on the rig monitoring daily operations then this incident would have occured with strict regulations notwithstanding.
So while your insistence of a corrupt regulatory scheme is great for scoring bs political points, do show how it resulted in the explosion.
Go to the shoreline, set up his lectern and teleprompter, and command the oil to go back in the well.
To do what?
To increase the number of assets on the sea floor. Have some parallel systems to BP so we are not reliant on the lying scumbags for data and information. Be able to take over.
And, no Scott, Sestak will have a fine job next January as the next Senator from PA. (Funny the fake outrage you guys have over this non-issue, after so many Rs do the exact same thing).
Trooper: Then a couple of years later Hasbro came out with the Frisbee.
Dude the Frisbee was from Wham-O.
Actually, I'm surprised that Wham-O hasn't marketed something more presidential recently.
Comrade X,
Clearly you are lying, as no govt. has ever screwed up or had an accident.
Comrade X, I never said that state-run oil companies are better. That's a strawman argument that you have invented and are lovingly flogging.
A strawman argument is an argument with yourself. In reality, it is mental masturbation.
Now girls didn't care much for tops and yo-yos. But they loved the Frisbee.
They would get in the game and softly toss it back and forth on the grass in Prospect Park. And have some Boones farm apple wine and some other types of grass were sometimes known to make a appearance.
"Comrade X, I never said that state-run oil companies are better. That's a strawman argument that you have invented and are lovingly flogging.
A strawman argument is an argument with yourself. In reality, it is mental masturbation."
Says the man who just claimed that conservatives oppose all govt. and that one oil spill destroyed an entire ideology.
@Trooper: Hasbro was a company started in the early 1960's by M. Hasenstab and his brothers in Milwaukee.
G.I. Joe was their most famous product.
You want to park a navy sub in 5,000 feet of water so it can "take over"? Are you really this stupid?
"- Make sure the booms are deployed correctly. They are not and they are useless, allowing more damage. Take BP out of this role entirely and place it under the Coast Guard.
- Forbid any governmental agency from acting under BP orders. Forbid BP from further preventing the news media from visiting oil spill areas and press charges if you have to.
- Mobilize military assets for deep sea rescue and exploration (I believe this has been done).
- Order an immediate operational adequacy review of every BP rig in US waters. Shut them down if they are found not to be adequately maintained and prepared (The Atlantis rig is top of the list and should be shut down).
- Mobilize more scientific expertise for shutting down or managing these wells.
- Scrap plans to expand offshore drilling until an adequate regulatory structure is in place.
- Press charges against those who engaged in corrupt practices in the regulatory office. Review every file and start from scratch with every rig.
- Fire the head of the Coast Guard and consider firing Salazar."
The above does everything except plugging the hole.
Just keep "reviewing, scrapping, firing, etc." Modern version of King Canute ordering the tide to recede.
Hint: it's an engineering problem.
A new statute won't stop the leak.
Where's Noble laureate Secreatry of Energy Chu?
I know that Wham-O made the frist Frisbee but Hasbro made a cheap copy that they sold in John Bargins store for like fifty cents.
I thought we didn't have to let the facts get in the way of a good story on this thread.
I just wanted to follow Alpha-liberals lead.
The little hick from Wasilla seems again to have been ahead of the curve in pinning this OIL debacle on the Oil companies and their bought and paid for government officials. She is a point guard political leader on this subject. She came into politics fighting exactly that corruption in the Alaska GOP. She understands how it works, and she has nailed Obama as a big player in the oil/government industrial complex. The States that wrestle with these international giants to sell them oil and not be polluted into a cesspool are the states most aware of the game. The two most recently engaged have been Alaska and Louisiana. They have a purpose and therefore they find that making a decision is easy...to hell with the political paralysis by a Chicago oligarchy trying to rule the world.
I'm just thankful that we're not talking about using nucular weapons. Whatever happened to that brilliant idea from a couple of days ago?
HoosierDaddy, their environmental cleanup plan was, obviously a joke.
This story from the Wall Street Journal details how they were left to regulate themselves.
Leaking Oil Well Lacked Safeguard Device
"U.S. regulators don't mandate use of the remote-control device on offshore rigs, and the Deepwater Horizon, hired by oil giant BP PLC, didn't have one. With the remote control, a crew can attempt to trigger an underwater valve that shuts down the well even if the oil rig itself is damaged or evacuated."
"The U.S. considered requiring a remote-controlled shut-off mechanism several years ago, but drilling companies questioned its cost and effectiveness, according to the agency overseeing offshore drilling. The agency, the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service, says it decided the remote device wasn't needed because rigs had other back-up plans to cut off a well."
"An acoustic trigger costs about $500,000, industry officials said. The Deepwater Horizon had a replacement cost of about $560 million, and BP says it is spending $6 million a day to battle the oil spill. On Wednesday, crews set fire to part of the oil spill in an attempt to limit environmental damage."
"Much still isn't known about what caused the problems in Deepwater Horizon's well, nearly a mile beneath the surface of the Gulf of Mexico. It went out of control, sending oil surging through pipes to the surface and causing a fire that ultimately sank the rig."
Also, I encourage you to watch the 60 Minutes show on this, available online. They detail how another rig, the Atlantis, is pumping more oil but in worse shape due to shoddy construction. Regulators did not act on that, either.
But my point about the Frisbee is that it lead to a communal gathering where the young boys and girls could spend time together and play a gentle non-competitive game while enjoying some wine and other treats. Which ultimately lead to the topic of this thread.
Plugging holes.
And efforts to lift the liability cap have been thwarted by Republicans in the Senate. Or it would have been done weeks ago.
However, there is a new clause found which seems to indicate it may not be needed anyway. that news hit today, outside the conservoblogosphere, where many of you will not venture.
Re: Alphaliberal
Bush. did. nothing.
The point people are making is that so did Obama. Clearly, wasn't a high priority for him, or he wouldn't have been out in front touting the quality of modern drilling platforms shortly before the BP spill. More likely, the people he put in place over the relevant agencies and departments didn't consider this kind of failure likely, so they didn't provide sufficiently harsh oversight or scrutiny, same as under Bush II.
Awesome Show - Great Job!
Sorry. Wrong link for the Wall Street Journal Story on how regulators let BP get away with bloody murder. How the anti-regulatory zeal led to this terrible problem.
Boy the Frisbee gang sure is eager to change the subject!
Barry owns this thing now and I am enjoying the show.
danielle, you're scary. With voters like you, Obama is what we get.
Unfortunately because we are limited in our ability to explore for, and produce, oil from domestic sources on shore and in shallow water, we have to get a large amount from imports (and we know what that means) and more costly and risky deep offshore wells. BP screwed up and the system is subkect to deals and such, but this was avoidable.
Trooper York: I know that Wham-O made the frist Frisbee but Hasbro made a cheap copy that they sold in John Bargins store for like fifty cents.
I didn't know that until you made it clear. Once again you have enlightened me. Sorry I busted you balls on the facts earlier. I guess I'll shut up now.
The real joke is the liability cap for BP (75 million).
That cap does NOT apply to BP. It only applies to spills which happen despite the companies involved following ALL regulations. An example would be a sudden storm or rogue wave capsizes an oil tanker.
A more specific example would be IF BP and Transocean had followed all procedures and filled all regulations and passed all inspections and this happened anyway.
The point of the cap is that there are risks even if you do everything right. In this case, BP and Transocean did not (and neither did the federal regulatory agencies ostensibly in charge of them.)
The States that wrestle with these international giants to sell them oil and not be polluted into a cesspool are the states most aware of the game.
That's true, traditionalguy, but it's Alaskan Senator Murkowski standing in the way of lifting the liability cap. It's a problem that our government officials are way too close to the big energy interests.
"Boy the Frisbee gang sure is eager to change the subject!"
Okay Obama lifts the liability caps, sentences to death all the responsible BP employees and 60 minutes does an expose.
How does Obama plug the hole?
Balfegor:
The point people are making is that so did Obama. .
Now, I am willing to criticize Obama for not doing enough and giving BP too much leeway.
But to say he did nothing is just plain false. And, bear in mind, he did not have the days worth of warning this was going to happen, as did Bush with Hurricane Katrina.
You can read their account of the Obama Administration's actions here.
They have also been working to overhaul the corrupt regulatory offices inherited from Bush and Cheney.
However, there is a new clause found which seems to indicate it may not be needed anyway.
Not sure what clause you're talking about, but if it's this one, this isn't exactly breaking news. It's been part of the debate since the beginning.
Sure we want to stop talking about how Barry is failing miserably to get a handle on this disaster. I mean when even a super liberal like James Carville is bitch slapping the big O it's time for us to change the subject.
Why should we pile on? Just let him show he is far beyond his level of competence. This is his Katrina and we are just sitting back and enjoying the show.
I bet he couldn't even throw a Frisbee. I know that he never played with a GI Joe. His mom would never have let them in the house.
They have also been working to overhaul the corrupt regulatory offices inherited from Bush and Cheney.
Pull the other one it has got bells on.
Trooper York: ...the Frisbee..lead to a communal gathering where the young boys and girls could spend time together and play a gentle non-competitive game...
Plugging holes.
OK but just don't talk about Hula Hoops because rings don't plug holes.
Just like the oil spill it depends on how big your plug is.
But plugging a Hula Hoop is a tall order I grant you.
Didn't the current administration, whose head received more money than anyone else from BP (pooh-poohed by the people blaming Dubya and Darth), give an award to BP under the auspices of the MMS about six months ago?
Well, they've had a year to work on improving things, except for all that useful stuff that took precedence - ZeroCare, stimuli...
Fen said...
He'd rather go golfing
Actually, today Obama is in Cali fundraising for Boxer.
And being booed over DADT.
Also, I encourage you to watch the 60 Minutes show on this, available online. They detail how another rig, the Atlantis, is pumping more oil but in worse shape due to shoddy construction. Regulators did not act on that, either.
This is what kills me. Regulators didn't act but what we need is more regulation. Kind of how we have immigration laws but need more immigration laws.
Here is a novel concept: Enforce the laws on the books. If the explosion can be proved to be because regulators chose to ignore the problem then its your ideology that failed. If the explosion was because BP ignored warning signs that were evident with or without regulation then explan what else could have been done.
It appears based upon BPs own admission that they were negilgent then fine, hold them criminally and financially accountable. But the idea that this is going to be prevented by heaping more regulations is idiotic.
So, Obama signs waivers for the rig and praises it...and the problem is all the fault of Bush?
Why did we elect obama if he can't do anything?
I bet the big O didn't even play the normal street games that kids did back in the day. You know. Stick ball. Stoop ball. Ringelievio. Johnny on the pony.
I don't think they did that stuff in Indonesia or Hawaii.
He is kinda a foreigner in that way.
I bet the big O didn't even play the normal street games that kids did back in the day. You know. Stick ball. Stoop ball. Ringelievio. Johnny on the pony.
I'm sure he learned to play "hate the Man" at his mother's knee pretty early on.
Notice today the prez mentioned the people killed by the blast AFTER he mentioned the ecological damage. He simply does not care, unless it involves some aspect of community organizing or mau-mauing for money.
Carville, I would imagine, is not satisfied.
(But since Bush caused this disaster, I guess that was okay, right, Alpha?)
I wish we could set aside the meme of "The buck stops here." for all presidents. I've always found suspect the one man leads us view of history. I think things are more complicated than that.
In this case, the potential for loss of livelihoods and habitats is truly numbing. I want the blowout plugged, environmental damage mitigated, and I don't disagree with AL that a regulatory audit of all Gulf platforms owned by BP would be a good idea (we seem to have passed some type of epistemological threshold regarding their propensity for short cutting in collusion with the government people responsible for oversight). I also think BP should be held liable for everything if they were found to be noncompliant with existing regulations.
This is not about Obama, or Bush. It's about how we properly administer large necessary technological enterprises with the capability for causing huge harm should they fail catastrophically.
Poor Alpha Liberal trying to give a historical background on how the agency in charge of overseeing our oil reserve have been plagued and gutted by mismanagement going back to Bush and beyond is like trying to explain the Royalty Trust Scandal that Joe Scarborough mention on air and passed over quickly because in effect it means we pay big oil to drill in the Gulf. That kind of detail is not for this crowd. But I agree that Obama should have gone to the Gulf and cleaned up a few birds while ordering BP to bring in tankers, but frankly the technological means to cap this flow has to rest with the oil industry with all its experience. And maybe, like Norway and England, in the future we will require the automatic shut- off values because I don't see the average citizen willing to shut off their IC engine and turn over a new "leaf" so we will be drilling and spilling for a long time to come.
This is not about Obama, or Bush. It's about how we properly administer large necessary technological enterprises with the capability for causing huge harm should they fail catastrophically.
And that comment makes the most sense of the thread.
Unfortunately because we are limited in our ability to explore for, and produce, oil from domestic sources on shore and in shallow water, we have to get a large amount from imports (and we know what that means) and more costly and risky deep offshore wells. BP screwed up and the system is subkect to deals and such, but this was avoidable
QFT
Quoted for truth for the slang challenged.
If we were not restricted by foolish environmental wacko rules, the oil we need can be and should be more easily extracted from on shore or shallow water sources.
Instead....we force companies to take huge risks that are completely avoidable.
I wonder how many conservatives, though, know about the corruption of the leasing office under Bush and Cheney?
A sadly predictable response.
Assigning blame is all important; accepting responsibility for solutions, not so much
I love how Bush was supposedly responsible for a few days delay during a natural disaster facilitated by Dem State neglect, but Obama is rendered helpless for months and months in the face of a manmade one because of Bush. Get serious. There's a huge disconnect there.
Where are his Leadership Qualities? Or is it time to admit that he was best suited to be a legislator-in-chief and low on Executive Ability?
I wish Clinton had won the primary. Christ, I'd rather see her in there in this situation. And yeah, it would help to have old Bill out there as well.
The hypothetical of McCain/Palin and how they would handle it with the military/oil state background is also interesting...
I don't see the average citizen willing to shut off their IC engine and turn over a new "leaf" so we will be drilling and spilling for a long time to come.
Are you? Tell me voltaire, why haven't the progressibe Europeans or Asians haven't come up with a 'green' energy that won't have us scuttling back to 19th century modes of transportation? Just curious because when I hear crap about the 'average citizen' won't give up....I tend to toss out my BS flag because usuaully the speaker is the first to climb into his/her gas guzzler and demand that someone else give it up.
Alpha: So, how's that government-in-charge thing working out down there? Has the EPA approved the dredging of sand to build islands been approved yet or did the Corps of Engineers fail to sign the form in blue ink? Will the EPA issue an RFP to get the right people to study the matter? Will the right people be certifiably diverse? How will we know? Will there be competitive bids? Will the study be available on line for us to mull it over? Plus, there is no reason other than aesthetics why they should be drilling for oil in 5,000 feet of water where it is seemingly impossible to fix a problem. The oil is perfectly available in shallow water nearer the land. EPA again?
Or are we to just hope that Obama will get really really really mad at BP? And maybe say he won't tolerate it any more.
Some leadership.
In a time of crisis, the President is the 'face' of the Government.
Do we expect him to put on his hard hat, pick up the tools and manually fix the problem himself? Of course not.
Is he going to personally oversee the cleanup and repair operations. Of course not.
Those types of things are delegated to those who have the expertise.....and we know that Obama has no expertise in anything than reading pre prepared speeches.
BUT.....we do expect the President to show some leadership. At least he could PRETEND to be concerned or engaged in the disaster.
Instead, we get an absent and disengaged leadership style. He seems more interested in going golfing and entertaining foreign leaders who denigrate and insult the American People and our laws.
Some great leadership there Zippy.,
Heck of a job Brownie...I mean Salazar and Napolitano, heck of a job.
Leaders need good teams and competent First Lieutenants. Bush and Obama seem not to have recognized regulatory agency and federal department leads are not patronage jobs.
I tend to toss out my BS flag because usuaully the speaker is the first to climb into his/her gas guzzler and demand that someone else give it up.
That's why I wish the whole alternative energy debate was led more by the likes of Amory Lovins than the bloated soft target Al Gore.
Carville is a partisan, but in this case his histeria is honest.
BP has to focus on the leak, however the FEDs have dropped the ball on the clean-up.
there are lots of things that could be tried, but the EPA and the ACE seem to be putting regulations before action.
Bet Carville wishes LTG Honore were still on active duty.
N2N wrote: "It's about how we properly administer large necessary technological enterprises with the capability for causing huge harm should they fail catastrophically."
So far, it is about how the feds do nothing.
I mean they get to demonize big oil, but that will be difficult to continue seeing as how big oil is the only entity that has tried to stop the disaster. I am not happy about how the Obama team is pobviously willing to sacrifice the Gulf of Mexico.
Trey
You know what's funny?
The same peole whining that this disaster is blamed on Obama made fun of anybody who noticed that intel under Clinton was really bad and 9/11 was a result of it.
Apparently, they have higher expectations of white Presidents than of black ones.
That's why I wish the whole alternative energy debate was led more by the likes of Amory Lovins than the bloated soft target Al Gore.
Well consider that the 'above average citizen' the late Ted Kennedy was adamently opposed to wind farms in the Cheasapeke so I don't take the 'go green' bullshit very seriously anymore. They may want you and me to go green but they sure as Sherlock won't inconvenience their precious lifestyle.
"Leaders need good teams and competent First Lieutenants. Bush and Obama seem not to have recognized regulatory agency and federal department leads are not patronage jobs."
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that any roughneck has infinitely more useful knowledge about this solving this problem than the sum total of all BO's court.
Just about all of whom are lawyers or academics. Mandarin eunuchs from top to bottom.
Couldn't BP just stuff Carville's head in the hole?
Republicans are held to a higher standard, Carville, haven't you learned this obvious fact yet???
You guys decided to let Affirmative Action select this boob as President after all, you support that shit.
Idiot.
"Couldn't BP just stuff Carville's head in the hole?"
A pinhead isn't enough.
"Carville is a partisan, but ..."
There are not "buts" to that sentence that will make sense. What it makes me think is, did Carville's performance come from the fact that he is a Clinton partisan? 2012 is coming.
Hoosier: Kennedy would have been fine with wind farms in the Chesapeake Bay since that was miles from home. It was his view in Nantucket Sound that he was concerned about!!! Love the sound of that thumping in the night, interrupted only occasionally by the odd seabird getting whopped. Only thing better is watching an idle windmill on those becalmed mornings with the gin still rattling around in the sinuses.
If I ever get into a roadhouse brawl (fat chance) I want Snakehead Carville on my side.
Kennedy would have been fine with wind farms in the Chesapeake Bay since that was miles from home. It was his view in Nantucket Sound that he was concerned about!!!
Ah yes my bad.
Other than the initial oil platform workers, I don't think PEOPLE ARE DYING
And isn't this similar to this rant (go to 11 minute mark)
Somebody need to get der ass on the plane...
I didn't like Nagin's rant and I'll judge Carville's rant the same. Of course its an ox gored phenomenon.
Dear Ms. Napolitano: This is what a man-caused disater looks like.
Surprisingly enough, oil companies drill where the oil is. From Wikip:
The Tiber oil field is a deepwater offshore oil field in the Gulf of Mexico, discovered by BP in September 2009. Described as a "giant" find,[2] it is estimated to contain 4 to 6 billion barrels (640×10^6 to 950×10^6 m3) of oil in place[3], although BP states it is too early to be sure of the size[2] - a "huge" field is usually considered to contain 250 million barrels (40×10^6 m3). It required the drilling of a 10,685-metre (35,056 ft) deep well under 1,260 metres (4,130 ft) of water,[4] making it one of the deepest wells drilled at the time of discovery[4] (the drilling rig's owner states "the deepest ever".[5])
Description
Tiber comprises multiple Lower Tertiary reservoirs[4] located in Keathley Canyon block 102 about 250 miles (400 km) southeast of Houston and 300 miles (480 km) south west of New Orleans.
[edit] Discovery
BP acquired the OCS lease of Keathley Canyon block 102 reference G25782, NOAA station 42872,[1] on October 22, 2003, in Phase 2 of the Western Gulf of Mexico (WGOM/GOM) Sale 187.[10] Lower Tertiary rock formations are some of the oldest and most technically challenging offshore rock formations currently drilled for oil, dating to between 23—65 million years ago.[11]
The field was announced on September 2, 2009,[4] and BP shares rose 3.7% on the news.[13]
At least the money I gave BP got me some gas and multiple attempts at fixing this. The tax dollars I sent seem to have gotten me nothing more than finger pointing and unless you stick that finger in the hole, I feel ripped off. And how about a reach-around.
FLS: Surprisingly enough the oil companies drill where they find oil that is permissible to drill for. A distinction with a difference.
c3: Nagin's rant was after a day or two of a natural disaster(compare and contrast a similar disaster in Nashville, Tn. that occurred last month) whereas Carville's is over a month after a man made disaster. In neither case could the Govt. "fix" the problem at hand, but in the case of Katrina the Military was in action in a few days. The current administration views the BP disaster as a big oil problem, an opportunity to vilify another employer. Meanwhile the La. people are trying to get the Corps of Engineers to dredge man-made islands to stop the oil from reaching the marsh (habitat to enviros) but they can't without permits from the EPA which require studies which require RFPs which require time. And. So. On.
I think the two most relevant points are: The Federal Govt has not approved building up barrier islands (Why doesn't LA just go ahead and do it? What's DC going to do?) and that Sen. Murkowksi is sitting on that bill in the Senate.
I don't understand the first (in)action. What are the Feds waiting for? Dead plants and the resultant destruction of close-to-shore marshland? Because dollars to donuts, that's what will happen if significant oil penetrates inland. I do understand Sen. Murkowski's action, however. When Big Oil says jump, she squeals out How High!??!. I hope Alaska sees fit to replace her next time they can.
Balfegor's initial comment made me laugh.
I think conservatives want the problem fixed before the environmental damage gets worse, but liberals are conflicted here.
If it was a lack of regulation that caused this mess, why hasn't Obama with his control of Congress, the WH and the media, done something about it? He's been there, playing golf, taking vacations, campaigning, passing a ridiculous health care bill that nobody wanted, etc. etc. Anyway could we fix the problem first and worry about whose fault is is later?
Hey, tell Carville that for only $17,600 he could have gone to the Boxer-Obama fundraiser at the Getty Museum in California, had quail eggs and caviar and given this message to Obama in person.
I wonder if this is the first shot fired in the Clinton war for the White House in 2012 - and Carville has chosen sides.
The tag "Obama's in trouble" should be changes to "We're all screwed" or "The U.S. is in trouble."
How many 5 billion barrel oilfields has BP been forbidden to drill in?
I wonder how many conservatives, though, know about the corruption of the leasing office under Bush and Cheney?
The liberal mantra:
Blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush, blame Bush,....
The Chosen one is well into his second year in office. Start taking responsibility. Losers. Oh, wait! BP has some more campaign donations!
Hoosier actually I traded my sports car for a Focus two years ago-- get up to 40 mpg on the highway. I liked the car so I bought some Ford stock at $1.20 and sold at $12. Going green has been good for me in terms of saving money and making it. The summer while vacationing in Europe, I will ride the trains, because they have a decent system, or rent a VW Polo that gets 60-70 mpg because Europeans have invested in diesel development, and next year I will probably buy the all-electric Nissan Leaf for our second car. I grant these are small steps, and still dependent on coal, but if enough folks do this there will be a tremendous shift in our energy use.
FL: Tens of millions of square miles of coastal waters are off limits to BP and every other oil company. They would therefore not seek to find oil in those waters. The answer to your question is therefore sadly impossible to answer which, of course, was the goal of the environmental groups who successfully lobbied to prohibit on-shore drilling.
or rent a VW Polo that gets 60-70 mpg because Europeans have invested in diesel development
Do you know why you aren't driving a 60-70 mpg diesel here in America, R-V? It's not because domestic manufacturers haven't "invested in diesel development." It's because the EPA won't let you.
As with the artificial barrier islands, the EPA seems to be best at throwing up roadblacks to solutions.
Boxer-Obama fundraiser at the Getty Museum in California,
Lest anybody forget, that's the Getty OIL Fortune. Built by soaking seagulls in oil and then lighting them making them into Tiki Torches.
So there are good oil companies and bad ones depending on who they contrbute to...
"How many 5 billion barrel oilfields has BP been forbidden to drill in?"
Of the potentially safer ones, all of them.
R-V: When you say that the Europeans have invested in diesel what do you mean? Is this technology not transportable to these shores? Or is this the engine and car that will be produced at the new VW plant about to open near Chattanooga? To be built by non-union Americans and sold to the market of gas guzzling yahoo oil loving backward stupid Americans?
By the way, you can take the train all over the United States. But sadly for you the U.S. is not Europe and is therefore very spread out and the cities are not hundreds of years old and therefore densely developed making rail sensible. Instead we will have toy trains for you to ride from Tampa to Orlando where you can rent cars on one side of the ride to get where you would have already been had you driven.
Obama alone cannot stop this. Just like Bush alone could not have prevented flooding in LA. Carville seems to think Obama can somehow stop the whole mess just by showing up. Earth to Carville: NO ONE can just show up and stop this thing. All Obama can do is put pressure on BP, which he has done.
As someone who hated James Carville throughout the 1992 campaign and subsequent Clinton presidency, I say with some surprise that I notice I don't really hate him anymore. On some of the shows where he appears, he actually seems to have a shred (just a shred) of intellectual honesty, which puts him head and shoulders above Paul Begala and others. I think Carville actually loves this country, oddly enough.
It's a shame not to use that bizarre physiognomy in a horror or science fiction movie, though.
Alpha said: "You guys are always going on about how business should not be regulated. They weren't!"
Huh?
They were regulated to within an inch of their lives, and still, shit blows up. I'm reminded of the government bureaucrat, who, when told that his plan was impossible because it violated the first law of thermodynamics, said:
"Well, we'll see if we can get these "laws of thermodynamics" repealed then."
But by all means, when regulations fail: More regulations!! Hurry!!
How about all those regulations that prevented them from drilling in the pristine rock garden ANWR, only slightly more hospitable to life than the surface of the moon, where such a leak could have been plugged within hours?
Instead, thanks to idiots like you and Montana Urban Brassiere, we had to drill miles from shore, and under a column of water a mile and a half high, where the psi is so great that it's a farking miracle of modern technology that we can drill at all.
On behalf of the oil-soaked marshes of Louisiana, I'd like to thank you idiots, Alpha, MUL/Ritzy, Freder, the whole lot of you, for your penny-wise and pound-foolish stupidity.
Here, I'll save you the trouble with your reply:
ChimpyMcHitlerburton!!! Teabagger!!
Hagar said...Go to the shoreline, set up his lectern and teleprompter, and command the oil to go back in the well.
That may not be enough. He may need to get testy and thin-skinned with it. Give it the death stare he shot at Rep. Paul Ryan. Say things like "The time for leaking is over!"
Carville doesn't look any older. Just uglier.
In spite of everything, I can't help liking the guy. Just about everything good about the south is present in James Carville--and most of what's not good too.
The EPA has actually been funding development of cleaner diesel fuels from bio products, but because of the higher costs of diesel fuel, according to news that I read, Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, Ford,and GM have halted diesel programs, leaving only the Germans to continue in this field. In contrast, the Europeans give tax breaks for diesel fuel. Interestingly my neighbor makes his diesel fuel from left-over french fry oil, but this is not a generalized solution to our problem. I confess I drove a VW diesel for one year in the eighties and didn't have any problems with it as long as I plugged in the engine block heater during the winter.
Obama alone cannot stop this. Just like Bush alone could not have prevented flooding in LA. Carville seems to think Obama can somehow stop the whole mess just by showing up.
@Matt. Right. I agree Obama can't stop this disaster. He might have been able to prevent it by ensuring that the proper safeguards were in place. Or maybe not.
However, the point is that Obama as the leader of this country should at least show some leadership and pretend like he gives a shit.
It doesn't seemt to be on his radar that people are suffering, wildlife is being decimated, and the tidal areas are being polluted for decades. Not that he could personally do anything, but leadership consists of encouraging people that something will be done and that there is SOMEBODY in charge.
No one expected Winston Churchill to be personally, physically involved with the war. Churchill was, however, a leader in the true sense of the word: inspiring those who were involved in the nuts and bolts of war to go to even higher lengths.
Obama seems to feel that it is just too much work. Or......more likely he just doesn't care because those affected in Louisiana and those previously in Tennessee who were flooded are not his chosen people.
People are looking for leadership and Obama is looking to take a vacation and throw his next party at the White House.
His lack of compassion and lack of engagement is chilling.
according to news that I read, Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, Ford,and GM have halted diesel programs, leaving only the Germans to continue in this field
The news that you read, is bullshit. If you'd done your homework prior to making what was apparently a blind investment in Ford, you would know what a Fiesta ECOnetic was (65 mpg), and you would likewise know that Ford would love to sell the car here but cannot, because EPA emissions standards are more restrictive than their European companion regulations - due solely to the mindless, scientifically-illiterate "green" demands of Northeastern state and California congressional delegations.
Carville and others need to settle down. We want don't want this particular president taking personal control of the situation. He has zero experience with large-scale coordination projects, and even less with large-scale engineering projects. He's out of his league.
David said, In spite of everything, I can't help liking the guy.
Me too. Especially after I saw this picture.
He has zero experience with large-scale coordination projects, and even less with large-scale engineering projects. He's out of his league.
It's ironic that whoever does finally come up with a solution will almost certainly be a person below his paygrade.
Obama can do the following:
1. He can cut the bureaucratic knot of EPA regulations and give executive authority to the Corps of Engineers to commence dredging islands of sand to prevent the oil coming on-shore.
2. He can make it clear that he will not tolerate finger pointing in any direction but his because as chief executive he is taking on the problem.
3. He can inform any obstructive agency to stand down and he can do it publicly with the Governor at his side.
4. He can mobilize the Navy and the Coast Guard to provide any necessary heavy lifting for BP in its efforts to stop the gush.
5. He can express some empathy for the people whose way of life is going to be changed, probably permanently. He should do so in a way that is not preachy or patronizing.
But the Obama and his admin has such a reputation for competence and efficiency. This Carville character is nothing but a whiner.
due solely to the mindless, scientifically-illiterate "green" demands of Northeastern state and California congressional delegations.
I bought a Golf TDI (diesel) in 2003, the last year that VW was allowed to sell them in CA. The dealer said at the time that he'd love to keep selling them but that Sacramento had closed off future sales of diesels because of NOx concerns.
Also keep in mind that diesels are not smog-tested in CA and so are not a revenue source for the state.
Paul said: ""The time for leaking is over!" "
"Man, you have got to get down here here and"... say it.
Micahael: French fry oil is not diesel fuel.
But it is fuel for diesels.
Bill Clinton called. He offered to give Obama some tips on how to feel your pain.
Buy a new diesel VW and put french fry oil in it. Go ahead, be my guest. And get a recumbent bike while you're out.
I had a VW diesel in the 70s, a Rabbit. Loved it. Slow but very cheap to drive. Pretty smoky behind, but up ahead it was clear. I should have thought to put French Fry oil in it.
1. He can cut the bureaucratic knot of EPA regulations and give executive authority to the Corps of Engineers to commence dredging islands of sand to prevent the oil coming on-shore. .
Sand is not permanent. Especially with Hurricane season coming.
How about we get someone competent in charge of placing the booms, instead of those BP fucks? Just for starters.
p.s. Rudolf Diesel preferred biodiesel.
2. He can make it clear that he will not tolerate finger pointing in any direction but his because as chief executive he is taking on the problem. .
WTF? No finger pointing? Like after a crime when the perp is in custody and you don't want to point a finger?
How about conservatives stop covering for oil companies first?
Carville was a classmate of mine at LSU--until he flunked out (had to go some to do that in the early 60s.) He was a fraternity brother of my room-mate/doubles partner on the tennis team my freshman yr. He used to come over to the dorm-room to BS often--was just as obnoxious then as now.
Nothing new in the comments section here. More of the same propaganda, being spread by the same "liberal" propagandists, that we've seen for the past year and a half:
1. Obama fucks up.
2. ?????
3. It's Bush's fault!
(And despite AL's faithful and dogged distribution of MiniTru updates, this incident guarantees that history will never record Obama's ascendance to power as the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal, except as a punchline.)
There should be up close and personal, in your face, oversight of the compensation payments and agreements for BP victims. People should not have to give up any right to speech or future action to be compensated by the perp.
AC245 what is "MiniTru?"
Nothing you wrote is in the least persuasive. Hardly coherent.
So you say that many years of well-documented corruption of the regulation of offshore oil production would have any impact on the safety of offshore oil production.
I can see why you don't bother to make a coherent defense of your position. It can't be done.
I would refer reader's to long time commenter Beth's blog--she is quite eloquent on the consequences--And while I do not like James Carville nor his politics, I think he is on target.
Get the thing fixed and fight over blame later.
AlphaLiberal tries a new tactic:
1. Obama fucks up.
2. ?????
3. It's Bush's fault! No, really, I mean it! IT'S BUSH'S FAULT! IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!!!
Buy a new diesel VW and put french fry oil in it. Go ahead, be my guest. And get a recumbent bike while you're out.
Yes Michael, one shouldn't put raw french fry oil into a new diesel motor--it should be filtered and esterified first, and the glycerol separated out, that is if you want the seals to last and for it not to eventually gum up. But it still works. I don't think many people realize how awesome that is and so here, I'll toot my own horn.
Recumbent bikes just look silly. I would never buy own.
What administration was responsible for the Office of Minerals Management when the spill happened?
Should we just stipulate that Bush is responsible for the next 20 years of tragedies right now? Whiny babies demand it. Led by their Blamer in Chief. Good God they have no shame at all.
It's pathetic.
I guess the one thing that appalls me about the whole affair is:
Did no one (BP, feds, whoever ever else) consider the possibility of a rupture of the deep undersea pipeline and how to stop it?
Bush took a lot of crap for making mistakes. He made many. But he was a man of action - and not a whiny blamer. That's just not the kind of man he was, and I believe that mistakes or not, we're safer with someone of that character.
Don't know if anyone is watching the Top Kill procedure, but if you are, this site helps make sense of it:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6511
I don't like it when Carville gets all wee-wee'd up.
Is it in your average politician's interest to take care of this problem speedily? Something to consider.
Darcy:
What administration was responsible for the Office of Minerals Management when the spill happened?
Obama Administration. And they have been cleaning up the mess at that office. Salazar just put a reform proposal forward.
As far as blaming Bush, you guys wouldn't accept blame for him when he was in office. You were blaming Clinton for things that went wrong under Bush.
And Ronald Reagan blamed Jimmy Carter into his second term.
Look, I laid out a very clear and documented case for how the deregulation under Bush and Cheney contributed to this. They out and out corrupted the regulatory office in charge. The inspector general's report couldn't be clearer.
You guys can't take that issue head on. So you just spew and attack.
Face it, Alpha. As President, Barry Obama is preening, feckless, and incompetent.
I don't believe anything produced by a political body anymore, AlphaLiberal. Especially during the Blamer in Chief's presidency. But blame on - no one can stop you. I just wanted you to know how pathetic it is. I don't believe it will be swallowed by the general public.
Here is a timeline on actions taken by the Obama Administration.
While I am critical about they're being too deferential toward BP in no way is their response incompetent. And it is nowhere near the comparable to Bush's bungling on Hurricane Katrina.
[AlphaLiberal] dialled 'back numbers' on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes' delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, as the official phrase had it, to rectify.
For example, it appeared from The Times of the seventeenth of March that Big Brother, in his speech of the previous day, had predicted that the South Indian front would remain quiet but that a Eurasian offensive would shortly be launched in North Africa. As it happened, the Eurasian Higher Command had launched its offensive in South India and left North Africa alone. It was therefore necessary to rewrite a paragraph of Big Brother's speech, in such a way as to make him predict the thing that had actually happened.
Or again, The Times of the nineteenth of December had published the official forecasts of the output of various classes of consumption goods in the fourth quarter of 1983, which was also the sixth quarter of the Ninth Three-Year Plan. Today's issue contained a statement of the actual output, from which it appeared that the forecasts were in every instance grossly wrong. [AlphaLiberal]'s job was to rectify the original figures by making them agree with the later ones.
As for the third message, it referred to a very simple error which could be set right in a couple of minutes. As short a time ago as February, the Ministry of Plenty had issued a promise (a 'categorical pledge' were the official words) that there would be no reduction of the chocolate ration during 1984. Actually, as [AlphaLiberal] was aware, the chocolate ration was to be reduced from thirty grammes to twenty at the end of the present week. All that was needed was to substitute for the original promise a warning that it would probably be necessary to reduce the ration at some time in April.
So Darcy you refuse to believe the latest report of the Inspector General regarding corruption in the Mineral Management Service?
Why? Because it doesn't comport with your opinions? This is only the latest of reports, they've addressed this previously and the issues has been building for years.
As far as blame, get used to it. Bush left the country and the government in terrible shape. Across the board. I know you guys want to blame Obama for Bush's problems but this it doesn't stick.
AC245, I read that fiction when I was a teenager. It was entertaining.
Again, all you are proving is that you have nothing to say on the substance. You can't point to any factual item. Spew is all you have.
Got it, AlphaLiberal. You and the Obama Admin. will continue to blame and pass the buck.
I heard you the first, second, third, etc. times.
Good luck with that. I am not stressing Bush's legacy at all. I believe history will judge him fairly well, though. As I said, he was a big man with broad shoulders. I don't really care much about it. I'm not personally invested. I'm looking forward.
[AlphaLiberal]'s greatest pleasure in life was in his work. Most of it was a tedious routine, but included in it there were also jobs so difficult and intricate that you could lose yourself in them as in the depths of a mathematical problem -- delicate pieces of forgery in which you had nothing to guide you except your knowledge of the principles of Ingsoc and your estimate of what the Party wanted you to say. [AlphaLiberal] was good at this kind of thing.
I say we call EVERYBODY'S bluff!
We plug the leaking well with the corpses of thousands of illegal aliens, rounded up by the Arizona State Police. We grant the mass execution contracts to the Teamsters and SEIU - and then we grant all of them posthumous citizenship and a Medal of Freedom.
EVERYBODY WINS!
For the minority here with an interest in the facts you can read for yourself the report of the inspector General on corruption at the MMS. PDF is here.
The report was prompted by a whistleblower and, therefore, covers events only during the Bush era.
More facts
The permit for this well was granted on March 10, 2009, less than one month after Obama took office. The permit is here (PDF). BP exceeded the drilling depths granted under the permit.
The environmental assessment was completed in 2002. That report is here (PDF).
Of course, Bush's MMS found a FONSI - "Finding Of no Significant Impact." guess they were wrong!
hahaha Alpha - we should believe the timeline posted on the White House blog? Sure they were there on day one! The blog says they did the search and rescue! On Day One! Pravda is jealous of the bull on this govt blog.
Bullshit, Darcy. You are making excuses for Bush and trying to blame Obama for his failings.
Sad thing is that's the story of George Bush's life. People have always made excuses for him and bailed him out. It's called "enabling."
The facts I have laid out here clearly demonstrate that Bush had a role in creating the conditions for this disaster.
For example, they could have written rules a long time ago to require the acoustic blowout preventers. But the industry complained, so they did not. And here we are.
As others have alluded to - if 9/11 was COMPLETELY Bush's fault only 7 1/2 months after he took office then this mess is Obama's fault nearly 15 months after he took office. It sucks but I didn't make the rules.
In fairness to Obama, this was a "natural" disaster not of his making in the least, and both Mitch Landrieu and Bobby Jindal have been uncooperative in coordinating federal efforts to give aid. Additionally, the local merchants had several days to relocate and simply failed to do so. It doesn't help that from "Day One," the President has had to deal with a hostile media unwilling to consider these mitigating factors. Why just the other night I heard a celebrity say that President Obama hates shrimpers.
I mean this is all terribly unfair.
And, Darcy, like so many conservatives here, you refuse to address the IG report.
At 6:04 I asked you about that but you can't muster an answer. Instead, you spew.
That speaks volumes. You guys know this report, as well as the facts on how Bush and Cheney corrupted regulatory oversight, show that this problem is a legacy of the Bush Administration.
And so you attack anyone raising the fact and refuse to discuss it.
Alpha, I'll engage you on the IG report in one respect. We can agree that Bush did not cause Katrina, correct? I mean I realize that you leftists think it was caused by global warming (sorry, "climate change," for you folks snow skiing in California today) brough about by Republican policies, but I mean Bush didn't "proximately" cause Katrina?
Can we agree on that point?
Okay, good.
Now, for the purposes of this discussion, in which we are critiquing or defending Obama's reaction to the oil spill, what relevance does the IG report have to anything? Bush got hammered for his reaction to Katrina, not for causing it.
Rialby, nice try but your efforts to deflect blame for Bush fail:
1) Bush took no action on terrorism even after being repeatedly ignored. Obama has already taken action on the MMS.
2) Bush was warned on August 6, 2001 in the Presidential Daily titled "bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US." He took NO action (went off to cut wood).
Obama, OTOH, had no such warning this was going to happen. (Indeed, the oil company lied to him and everyone else about the extent of the problem after it happened).
3) Obama has taken action. Bush ignored repeated warnings about al Qaeda and focused on the Star Wars missle defense system and conentional warfare in the months leading up to 9/11.
4) After 9/11 happened, Bush and Cheney used it as an excuse to attack a country that was not a part of the attack on us - Iraq.
And, Darcy, like so many conservatives here, you refuse to address the IG report.
Remind us, Winston: what happens to IGs that don't push the Party line?
That's right - they get memory-holed.
I'm sorry, but wasn't this a thread on the gulf oil gusher under Bambi's presidency?
Or did Bush actually win a third term?
I'm confused. Why are we arguing about Bush when Bambi "I won" is in charge?
AlphaLiberal said...
1. Obama fucks up.
2. ?????
3. I SWEAR TO GOD IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT! WHY WON'T YOU BELIEVE ME?!?!?!
Related:
This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs -- to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct, nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary.
As to this "deregulation caused the spill" canard, how much time does it take to cap a busted well in, say, the middle of the Alaskan wilderness or just offshore in the shallows? I don't know the exact answer to this question but I'm reasonably certain it is something less than "36 days and counting."
Sky Lawyer:
Yes, we agree that Bush did not cause Hurricane Katrina. His great failing was because he ignored the warnings he had in the days before it hit. After it hit, he did not pay attention, either.
No-one of any responsibility said global warming created Katrina. Global warming most likely increased the energy of the storm.
"what relevance does the IG report have to anything? "
The IG report addresses the agency with regulatory authority over this and other offshore wells. They processed the application for this well - DURING THE BUSH YEARS.
The agency in question set the lax regulations that the well operated under. As I have mentioned, they did not require a relatively inexpensive acoustic switch.
There are worse things than regulation. We are living through one of those worse things.
Alpha you conveniently ignored my central point which is that causation is irrelevant. You know how I know you're being dishonest about this argument?
"He [Bush] ignored the warnings he had in the days before it hit."
Utter bullcrap. What part of "Get the F out of New Orleans" did people not understand? You could have walked out of the Lower 9th Ward in a tiny fraction of the advance warning everyone had.
Bootstraps.
AC245: thanks for that link. I missed that when it was fresh news. That's just outrageous.
Sky Lawyer, careful with words. I didn't actually say "deregulation caused the spill." It contributed to it and created the conditions for it to happen.
As I've said before here BP really pushed it over the top with their rushed schedule, scrimping on safety equipment and more.
And wells on land are far easier to cap than wells a mile under water. It's vastly more complex under all that water.
They teach us in scuba class that 33 feet of alert creates one atmosphere of pressure. Over 5,000 feet? Wow. Lots of pressure.
We are living through one of those worse things.
Thankfully, we get the opportunity to vote the Obama regime out of office in 2012. Hell, we might as well vote Bush back in since he seems to be the one running the country.
Let's pretend that it is indeed all Bush's fault. Everything. World without end. Amen.
What, then, is Bambi doing about it?
Going on vacation.
I see. Is that Bush's fault, too?
WV: reboot. I swear to God.
@AlphaLibelar: You need to separate the issue of blame from the issue of response. Both have different fact patterns.
Carville's point was mostly about response, not blame. Watch the video again. Carville is not Chris Dodd.
Sky Lawyer, I think I answered every one of your questions. You blame the victims of Katrina for what happened but are you in a position to judge? Are you a lonely and poor senior citizen? Have you walked int their shoes?
Bush was warned about Katrina and did not take action. He was cutting a birthday cake for John McCain and fucking off. Wal Mart took more action than he did.
You could always cite a "fact" that shows what he did. How did he prepare? Only partisan Republicans claim he took adequate preventive action. No-one else believes that. because it is false.
Miller, because Bush was President when they applied for the drilling permit, during most of the review, and it was permitted under the rules laid out under the 8 years of his Presidency.
And because of the dishonest attempts by con's to blame Obama for the oil spill.
El Chicken Real:
I think I agreed with Carville that even more should be done. But I am not tolerating the Blame Obama mindlessness.
And, I don't think Althouse or many of the other right wingers here are even AWARE of the facts that run counter to that narrative because they only listen to news sources that suit their ideological filter.
Has Fox News reported in the Inspector General's report? Has Rush Limbaugh?
Alpha: Much slower and much less competent than Bush/Katrina. But then in your world Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Big Oil/Business/Wingnuts are the cause of all the world's problems.
You would think, however, you could distinguish between something requiring immediate action and the prelude to the requirement for action. This concept alludes you. Like a child you argue that your friends didn't make the mess, and so you won't make a move to simply pick up the sponge and get to work. You would rather not take any responsibility. Leftie think.
I find you deadly boring
LOL at the remark about Clinton calling to give Obama advice on showing he feels the people's pain.
In any case... remaining remote and serene in an overwhelming crisis got Obama elected. Why shouldn't he do that again?
At least I have Alpha talking about response, as opposed to cause. Too bad it's about Katrina and not this mess.
Bush made a ton of mistakes in his response to Katrina, and rightly caught holy hell for it. That doesn't change the fact that, other than the infirm, super young, or super old, most of the "victims" of Katrina had so much advance warning that they could have crawled out of harm's way with a day to spare.
It also doesn't change the fact that this oil spill is Obama's mess and he flat-out botched it.
Some wanker said:
What, then, is Bambi doing about it?
A lot. But he needs to stop coddling BP.
* Mobilized Coast Guard.
* Established joint command center
* Established commission to investigate.
* Set a moratorium on further permitting and new well expansion.
* Recommended reform of the MMS office.
* Calling for support for clean energy legislation to get us off the oil addiction.
* Start a DHS-DOI investigation into causes of the spill.
* mobilized many federal agencies.
* Various other things you guys will dishonestly ignore.
How did he "botch" it?
While I am critical about they're being too deferential toward BP in no way is their response incompetent. And it is nowhere near the comparable to Bush's bungling on Hurricane Katrina.
Except that in this case, the Federal government has exclusive jurisdiction here and is mandated to act, which it hasn't, and in the case of Katrina, the Federal government was constrained from acting until requested by the state under multiple federal laws. Remember, Mississippi asked for federal involvement early, and got it. It was the LA gov. who had to request federal intervention, which she delayed doing until too late. And it was the NO mayor who refused to order the evacuation until too late, despite repeated requests by the federal government.
Oh, and I almost forgot. It was the predominantly Democratic politicians who earmarked the Corps of Engineers money that should have gone to the NO levees to go for projects that were more important politically, but less so economically. All against the repeated advice of the Corps.
But otherwise, you may have a point.
Well if this hasn't convinced me of how much more credibility Republicans have on environmental issues I don't know what will!
Alpha:
In answer to your question, read the list of what the President has "done" in response. Words like "recommend," "investigate," and "commission" are abundant. Leftist tropes for "I'm doing things."
But the biggest way he botched it is listening to BP after it had just caused a massive explosion on an oil rig. I mean, at some level, regardless of political leanings, that's just common sense.
Has Fox News reported in the Inspector General's report? Has Rush Limbaugh?
Hmmm... Fox News, Sept 11, 2008:
"This is why we must not allow Big Oil's agenda to be jammed through Congress," said Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., who strongly opposes any expansion of offshore drilling, especially closer to Florida. He said the report "shows the oil industry holds shocking sway over the administration and even key federal employees."
...
[Sen. Ron] Wyden [D-Ore.] said the program should be suspended to "clean house" at the federal agency and "bring back the process of rigorous audits and accountability."
...
House Democrats on Wednesday offered a broader drilling proposal than they had floated previously. It would lift all moratoria on drilling 100 miles from shore and allow energy development beyond 50 miles from the coast if a state agrees. Waters closer than 50 miles would continue to be protected.
Democrats have had control of both houses of Congress since 2007.
They've also had control of the White House since 2009.
In 2008 they demagogued this issue while proposing to allow drilling 50+ miles out (how far out was the Deepwater Horizon rig?). But they did nothing to actually resolve the problems.
And in 2010, they've decided it's all George Bush's fault.
We need tankers out on the water, sucking up the oil. They did this in the Persian Gulf and it works. BP has to provide those tankers and they have not. It's not profitable to have a tanker sucking up spilt oil and not transporting usable oil.
There are miles of wetlands right now that have oil coming in and BP has sent no cleanup crews. Jindal and Nungesser (Plaquemines Parish president) toured that area today and were stunned to find nothing, nada, zilch.
There are boats and fisherman standing by, more than 100, that BP interviewed and trained but have not mobilized with boom, with hay, with any materials. They've been told to just hang on.
There are oil-digesting microbes that are not being used. There are concerns about their causing oxygen-depletion as the microbes turn the oil to food product, but dead marsh outweighs that. Best of two bad things.
Then there are the barrier islands which are a long-term and expensive part of what ought to be being done.
All of this has to be paid for by BP, and they're stalling. And the U.S. is deferring to their judgment. That's via the Coast Guard, mainly, and the Corps of Engineers.
Hurry up and wait, y'all.
St. Bernard Parish president Craig Tafardo asked La. residents to ask our non-La. friends to lobby your congress folks to push for the CoE approval for dredging the sand barrier islands. Consider yourselves asked.
Here is a timeline on actions taken by the Obama Administration.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
Like I want to bother to read Obama's timeline on incompetency. Am I supposed to somehow think Obama accomplished a positive result because you can point out a timeline? Try this one...
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
(insert date/time) Ineffective action
Beth doesn't have any time to play politics.
Well, unless you count blaming BP and issuing apologia for Obama.
She has time for that.
ac245, the report was issued earlier this week and Fox News covered it in 2008?
Really? You do know this is 2010, right?
Here's a report from an industry insider. Might be interesting for the non-brain dead set.
Well, not one conservative has had anything of substance to say here. All "blame Obama" without addressing what Obama has actually done or what you think he should have done.
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