Glenn Reynolds predicts: A brief poll bump for Obama based on positive news coverage of the bill passage. Then, more decline."
I tend to think people will get used to the change and stop paying attention, and the polls will move back to equilibrium between the parties. People will never be giddy and dreamy about Obama again, but so what? (Note to Althouse haters: "So what?" is a serious question.) We shouldn't be so optimistic about government. That's why we resisted the reform. We didn't trust it. Now that it's happened, won't most people get bored with looking at the government and turn back to their immediate lives? The mistrust that made people say "no" will be processed into jadedness and aversion to politics. People will try to live good lives on their own and be fatalistic about how the reforms will affect them. My basic political orientation is aversion to politics, and I found myself thinking, as soon as the vote count reached 216 last night: Well, I hope some good comes of this and the bad isn't too horribly bad. People aren't going to stay fired up. The natural process is to stabilize and find normal. Isn't that why we're so conservative in the first place?
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284 comments:
1 – 200 of 284 Newer› Newest»Next time someone shows up with a ton of charisma and no track record, people are going to be much more hesitant to elect him.
Charisma is dangerous and people have now been reminded of that.
I think opponents will stay fired up. The lawsuits filed by the state AG's will keep this issue front and center for quite a while.
Also, this is not a one timer. Next comes massive control of the energy industry, and legalizing millions of new currently illegal Democratic voters.
We are not slouching towards Socialism, we are rushing, and I and many others will not quietly "go back to our lives".
I suspect the Professor is correct--only progressives seem to able to muster the non-stop spleen to follow through what will be a long and difficult process.
Forgive me if you may, Professor Althouse, but you need to get out more to the Twittersphere, where the Brown Revolution is alive and well. Out here in the Wild and Wooly West of our discontent, the Army of Davids soldiers on. We have just begun to fight!
You think I rode a bus for 48 hours to come home and listen to this wussy bullshit? I'm angry. I'm staying angry. In November we will start voting the bastards out. Deal with it.
"Read my lips. No new taxes."
People can stay remarkably angry when they feel they were cheated. I think this stunt exceeds a simple promise not to raise taxes.
As some pundit described last week.
Obama and the Dems now own every healthcare problem in the country.
Can't get an appt? Call Your Congresscritter
The Feds tell your Doc that he can't get a procedure approved for you? Call Your Congresscritter
Your Doc retires? Call Your Congresscritter
The Feds tell you that the HSA you had is not exchange compliant? Call Your Congresscritter
Your health plan is no longer exhange compliant and needs to add aromo-theraphy? Call Your Congresscritter
Your insurance company raises rates to cover all these new mandates and all the pre-existing condition people? Call Your Congresscritter
Your employer drops healthcare to save money, and stay competitive? Call Your Congresscritter
Medicaid advantage is canceled? Call Your Congresscritter
Congress fails to find the 500 Billion it promised in Fraud waste and abuse? Call Your Congresscritter
The deficit explodes? Call the WHCall Your Congresscritter
I'm angry. I'm staying angry.
What's part(s) of the bill anger you the most?
"Brown Revolution"... not a good term. My first 2 associations were negative and Meade had to tell me that was about Scott Brown. Don't load this thing onto Brown. He's not that firm of a foundation. And "Brown" is heard as a color above all. Especially when paired with "Revolution."
I don't know about anyone else but I can tell you this about me. I plan to game the system with more fervor than ever before.
I voted for Sarah Palin (Not John McCain!) but now I'm going to get me some government health care!! I'm entitled to Medicare in 2 months and I'm going to get myself some of that.
Hell, I might even go get some food stamps and some free government cheese.
Look out government tit, here I come.
Beta Conservative said...
I think opponents will stay fired up. The lawsuits filed by the state AG's will keep this issue front and center for quite a while.
more importantly, Democratic Governors are starting to point out that the HCR will bankrupt the states and are looking for Federal bailouts that weren't factored in to the rosy CBO cost scenario.
Prof. Althouse, I agree with the small definition of conservatism in your last few sentences. Most conservatives are such primarily because they value things like self-reliance and adaptability to new circumstances, and while they sometimes flirt with loud resistance or even rebellion aimed at policies they dislike, they usually temper it with that innate conservatism that tells them to calm down.
I hope, though, that as in 1980, when conservatives rose up and elected Reagan, we will again rise up and defeat the socialists, repeal their mistakes, and put government back in its place.
Conservatives do get angry sometimes, most especially when they feel their values and culture face existential threats.
The Scott Brown revolution... the Paul Ryan revolution... the Payback Is A Bitch revolution...
We're reading "Rules For Radicals" and will apply those very same tactics. The next battle has only just begun.
Now that it's happened, won't most people get bored with looking at the government and turn back to their immediate lives?
While the Libs are in charge we cant afford not to pay attention.
An appearance of "normalcy" could embolden the Liberals even more to try and grab more of our freedoms.
garage mahal said...
"What's part(s) of the bill anger you the most?"
The parts that were supported exclusively by one cynical, arrogant, power-grabbing political party.
I think opponents will stay fired up. The lawsuits filed by the state AG's will keep this issue front and center for quite a while.
Also, remember Obama will keep this issue in our face - he's planning a full-out long-term PR blitz to sell this thing.
Obama's biggest weakness is that his advisers see Obama through very, very rose-tinted glasses - look at the damning photos they put on the White House twitter feed. They really don't see that more in-your-face Obama on health care is going to work as well as Obama campaigning for Democratic candidates.
The interesting notes today is that Treasury Notes demand a higher interest rate than bonds from Berkshire Hathaway. Gov't health care is part of a vast overspending issue with the government. State gov'ts will go bankrupt faster with the new medicade stuff. The doctor "fix" for medicare (If enacted, I think the AMA has been taken for a ride on this) will add to the deficit.
From my business contacts 2010 is the year that will be worse for many than 2009 due to a workoff of company backlogs. Watch for the double dip by June/July.
C.S. Lewis said it well: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
"People aren't going to stay fired up."
OK...wait and see. Furious, maybe not. Determined...you better believe it.
The thinking that says people will quickly get to "Oh well..." is NAIVE... sorta like voting for Obama...
This is a key weakness in liberals...they do not understand people and human nature...other than "folks likes free stuff"
garage mahal said...
"What's part(s) of the bill anger you the most?"
The Stupack part.. tax payer funded abortions.
Next time someone shows up with a ton of charisma and no track record, people are going to be much more hesitant to elect him.
Obama has just demonstrated exactly the strength, persistence, refusal to panic and long term strategic thinking that he showed in the campaign. It's what allowed him to pass maybe the most significant legislation I'll see in my adult lifetime. Whatever you think of the legislation, the image of Obama as weak and inexperienced, all hat and no cattle, cannot possibly survive this.
This is not a point about the quality of health care reform. It's about Obama as president.
We are in uncharted territory really. No party has ever, single handedly pushed something like this through without one, single, solitary, bi-partisan vote. Ever.
That is a fuel that makes me think this isn't going away just because some people are exhausted over the topic.
Garage: The WSJ in its editorial this morning reminded us of the Colin Powell quote regarding Iraq. Powell, as you will recall, invoked what he termed the Pottery Barn rule (with regard to the impending war in Iraq): If you break it, you own it. So the anger of the opposition from now on will be against those things that don't work, or cost more than expected or otherwise fail to please. It does not matter if those bad things would have happened without the passage of this bill, it won't matter if the breakage was unintended, it won't matter if your kid tripped, it won't matter one bit. The Democrats own this thing now and we can only hope for the country's sake that, for once, they were right.
Obama has pretty much sealed his fate with this legislation. He'll lose both houses of Congress in November.
I agree with you that for most people, this specific topic won't mean much three months from now. But more importantly, they've formed their long-term opinion of Barack Obama and the DemonPass Congress.
Even though DemonPass wasn't used, they threatened to use it and that was enough for most people who might have been dozing to wake up to the disaster they have for a government.
Barack Obama was elected largely on anti-Hillary sentiment, promises of no tax increases, anti-war sentiment, anger at crooked politicians, accusations of torture, promises to oppose health care mandates and oust the lobbyists, and his promise to close Gitmo.
I think people now have a lot of new respect for Hillar Clinton. Obama has broken every single campaign promise he made in order to get this health insurance tax increase.
* Obama welcomed mandates.
* Obama passed the largest tax increase in history on the very people he promised he would not (people making less than $250,000 per year who are now required to spend $13,000/year on health insurance).
* Obama has surged troops in Afghanistan and expanded the war to Somalia and Yemen, and not brought troops back home from Iraq.
* He's switched American terrorism policy from "tough but legal interrogation" to "outright fucking murder."
* Obama will never close Gitmo.
* Obama has hired lobbyists.
* Obama has bribed politicians himself.
* Obama attacked and outed a gay Congressman (Massa) and refused to eliminate DADT. It is now obvious to the gay community that they've elected a hater.
The coalition of leftists who elected Obama won't be rushing to the polls to re-elect him. Independents have abandoned him.
And all Democrats have done with this legislation is to awaken the sleeping giant.
In politics, it's almost never about an issue. It's almost always about the general perception of a candidate. Obama was fortunate that he had no record for people to make an assessment.
He no longer enjoys that slate. People have now formed opinions of him ... and they are almost universally negative.
He's Jimmy Hussein Carter and nothing more.
It's going to be amazingly fun to watch Chris Matthews and Keith Olberman commit suicide on November 2, 2010.
Barack Obama just handed them the noose.
I hope, though, that as in 1980, when conservatives rose up and elected Reagan, we will again rise up and defeat the socialists, repeal their mistakes, and put government back in its place.
Like that successful operation in 1982 to kill the Dept of Education that Carter installed in 1979 and that Obama has just massively increased?
How'd that turn out?
OBTW: The HCR also took over student loans....
The reason why Reagan couldn't kill ED, was that the Dem's controlled one house of government.
Obama's HCR can't be repealed until the GOP controls the House, Senate and WH with working majorities.
The best that can be done for the next 3 years is sniping in the form of refusing to fund lines in the budget.
I don't know about anyone else but I can tell you this about me. I plan to game the system with more fervor than ever before.
BINGO.
I plan to pay as little as possible in taxes and get as much of the government 'largess' as I can. Retirement from my business is looking more and more attractive.
My husband had previously been denied health insurance due to a mild and controlled case of diabetes and having one time been prescribed Lipitor. We have been paying out of pocket for medication and occasional blood panel tests. Now that we will be FORCED to pay for insurance for him and when my high deductible plan is illegal (as Obama has planned) and I'm FORCED to pay for a plan that I don't want....
We plan to use the living Hell out of the medical "insurance" and try to get as much as we can before the system goes completely bankrupt. I estimate that to be in about 3 years.
Our next Tea Party meeting is the 24th and I expect even more people to show up. It isn't JUST the Federal Government that is in our cross hairs.
People have not YET seen the horrible consequences of this bill.
We can't let up because next is Cap and Tax and a whole host of other terrible changes that will destroy our freedoms for generations.
I don't think I ever heard of Stupack until this weekend..
Stupack wanted alive and defeated in November.
wv - furro - to subside in November
The folks that vote in the highest percentages, the alter cockers, know that this bill is a death sentence aimed at them. A half trillion funding taken from Medicare and transfered to "America's rightful owners?" On that basis alone the Dems will pay dearly for what they've done.
I hate Obama with a passion unlike any president in my lifetime.
But he will get a bump from this.
But he will get an even bigger bump the coming months because the business cycle is turning. When the jobs numbers for March are released on the first Friday in April, he will get another bump because those numbers are going to be monstrously good. (Two top firms are projecting as many as 400,000+ jobs will be created in either March or April, due mostly to census hiring but also meaningful private sector job growth as well). Positive job growth will continue the rest of the summer, which will keep his approval levels elevated.
Then the troops start coming home from Iraq in August. He gets another big bump there.
Unfortunately, his approval ratings have bottomed and the landslide GOP victory everyone anticipates in November ain't gonna happen. They'll pick up seats, but a blowout giving them control of the House and near control of the senate seems unlikely to me.
You think I rode a bus for 48 hours to come home and listen to this wussy bullshit? I'm angry. I'm staying angry. In November we will start voting the bastards out. Deal with it.
Now I'm falling for Meade.
I wasn't on the bus to D.C. and I'm much more distressed and anxious than angry, but I have no intention of disengaging from this struggle. It's not over -- HCR isn't "done" yet, and after HCR, there's cap-and-trade, immigration, and God only knows what else.
This is an existential struggle, and we're not going down easy.
BTW -- I'm sure in Sissy's Massachusetts-based circles, the name Brown evokes only one image, and it's not UPS.
Althouse;
You must have a good political ear. Get out and talk to the small business owners and people who are not taking stuff from the govt. They are mostly pissed, don't believe the fed govt can or should run everything and their anger ain't going away.
The left didn't give a shit about the minority party or the taxpayers, that dwindling class, and from this point on, I don't care for them.
I will practice civil disobedience wherever and whenever possible.
I will be obstructive to all government initiatives.
I will follow the letter of the law. To. The. Letter. ....even (and when) it makes things worse for people.
I will "work to rule".
I will strike.
I will delay.
I will comply, but very very very slowly.
I will cut my hours.
I will answer your call, eventually.
I will answer your questions, but not today; maybe on a return visit. Maybe not even then. I might be on break.
I will save the gummint money by denying you tests and consults I normally would have ordered.
You want an extra 5 minutes to discuss? Come back tomorrow. too bad you live out of town.
You want a primary doctor? Sorry. not in my job description.
You want forms filled out? Tomorrow. Maybe. Maybe not. Whatever.
Get back in the goddamned line.
I will serve the gummint. You? No one serves you; not anymore.
Enjoy gummint health care, folks. What measly portions you can get of it.
Every generation has to learn their lessons the hard way. History is always an abstraction, and a predictor.
Meanwhile, it is a "Brown" revolution, and the happiest person in Washington right now is Michelle Obama. Since her days at Princeton she could only hope for reparations. Now she's got 'em, the AMI jackpot.
I meant to say Althouse does NOT have a good ear for political rumblings.
People move on. They just move on. And we will move on. We will get past this. Because that is what human beings do. We survive. We survive and we overcome.
Dust Bunny Queen, isn't that kinda the opposite of going Galt? It's like if Galt decided to stop working and live off welfare. I'm not sure that's consistent with the Tea Party message.
Anyway, I'm sorry your husband was denied coverage, and I hope that soon enough you'll be able to get it. My wife has type 1 diabetes, so I really know how much costs can add up.
For every Tea Party demonstrator there are thousands who are at home quietly donating to & supporting GOP candidates. They won't stay home this time.
"...all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
When exactly will the evils become insufferable?
"...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
"What's part(s) of the bill anger you the most?"
The fact that Barack Obama promised not to support forcing people to buy health insurance from campaign donors with the threat of IRS audits and fines for those who do not comply.
That is fucking offensive and I will go to jail before I fucking buy this insurance.
He specifically campaigned against raising taxes and against the individual mandate.
Forcing people to buy something is a tax. Forcing people to buy isnurance is an individual mandate.
Barack Obama deceived the American public to get elected and they're going to take their wrath out on him.
Mark my words you quisling fucking prick.
Advice from the experts:
А при коммунизме все будет - заебись!
Он наступит скоро, надо только подождать.
Там все будет бесплатно, там все будет в кайф,
Там, наверное, вообще не надо будет умирать.
Я проснулся среди ночи и понял, что...
Все идет по плану,
Все идет по плану...
Well, when we get communism it'll all be f***ing great.
It will come soon, we just have to wait.
Everything will be free there, everything will be an upper.
We'll probably not even have to die.
I woke up in the middle of the night and realized
That everything is going according to plan.
Everything is going according to plan.
Yegor Letov
My husband had previously been denied health insurance due to a mild and controlled case of diabetes and having one time been prescribed Lipitor. We have been paying out of pocket for medication and occasional blood panel tests. Now that we will be FORCED to pay for insurance for him and when my high deductible plan is illegal (as Obama has planned) and I'm FORCED to pay for a plan that I don't want....
This is just idiotic. Your husband has diabetes, no insurance because he was discriminated against, and now your whining because now a system will be put into place to help him? Seriously, what the H.
When exactly will the evils become insufferable?
I'll go to the ballot box two more times: On November 2, 2010 and on November 4, 2012.
If Democrats are still running this country at that point, my evils will be insufferable and one of two things will occur.
I will join the rebellion or if a rebellion doesn't exist I'll leave America forever.
I tend to think people will get used to the change and stop paying attention
Except Obama isn't going away. He's going to continue to be right there, continuing on with his agenda, still doing it with his people, and still doing it the way he and they do these things. So they're going to give people all that's necessary to keep them fired up. Think of 2010 as 1994 and 2012 as 1980. Except this time on steroids.
I agree with you Ann. Already I find it impossible to keep up the level of interest and also find lawsuits and the threat of lawsuits to be a waste of time and the taxpayers' money. It will eventually seem normal and no one will care.
A long, long time ago…
I can still remember
How that that Cowboy used to make us smile.
But the GOP ignored ol’ Ron’s stance
And McCain never had a chance
And a “good man” took over for a while.
But the march voting made me shiver
With every new post Hamsher delivered.
Bad news on the doorstep;
I couldn’t take one more step.
I can’t remember if I cried
When I read about Stupak’s slide,
But something touched me deep inside
The day the country died…
Your husband has diabetes, no insurance because he was discriminated against, and now your whining because now a system will be put into place to help him? Seriously, what the H.
Let me explain it to you, Garage, since you can't do simple math.
Under the existing system, her husband got free health care.
Under the new system, she has to pay for health insurance.
How do you not understand why this is upsetting people.
You believe (because you're a moron) that what you just passed was "free health care."
It was not.
People were already getting free health care. Now, they will have to pay for it you stupid fuck.
"
I will join the rebellion or if a rebellion doesn't exist I'll leave America forever."
And go where? Obama's socialist comrades-in-arms basically have their boots upon the throats of every nation in the world.
Obama has just demonstrated exactly the strength, persistence, refusal to panic and long term strategic thinking that he showed in the campaign.
God you are a dim bulb. Obama and the Dems demonstrated:
Graft
Corruption
Extortion
Lies
Cheating
Personal destruction of those who didn't fall in line with the Chicago Way.
And a complete lack of concern for anything other than their own selves.
Nevermind that this is going to be a burden of HUGE taxes on future generations and that this will literally bankrupt States, Counties and the Federal Government.
Nevermind that this will cause us to lose control over our lives and economic decisions, because now the Government owns our health and lifestyles, ration medical care and cause many many doctors (my own included) to retire early leaving a shortage.
Nevermind that it guts Medicare and Social Security that people have also been FORCED to pay into for decades.
Nevermind that this is a transfer of wealth on a grand Socialistic scale that goes against the morals of the American people.
Nevermind that the bill is unConstitutional.
My only hope is that in your 'adult' lifetime, which I gather from your idiotic postings is rather short.......YOU will have to bear the weight and see the results of the destruction of America that you so gladly welcome in your dim bulb state.....because I'll be dead while you are still struggling to live as a cog in the machine.
Have a nice life....if you can.
"People aren't going to stay fired up. The natural process is to stabilize and find normal. Isn't that why we're so conservative in the first place?"
It's not going to stay at a fever pitch forever. But the civil war that started yesterday will be part of the background noise in American life for decades.
Saul Alinsky assumed that when the left took over, people would complain but they wouldn't act. He no doubt drew on his experience as a community organizer. But what he didn't notice was, when a particular neighborhood is under the thrall of (corrupt) leftist politics, the opposition doesn't need to fight back -- they just move to another neighborhood with fewer assholes.
But with nationalized health care, there is no place for an American to move to escape it. This is where Alinsky's analysis breaks down. Some people may just sit there and take it, but a large percentage of the opposition will feel a constant pressure to fight it; to take a vigorous stand against creeping Democrat fascism, because they will see no viable alternative.
The question then becomes, how far will the Uglycrats go to suppress opposition? Is Obama going to don the mantle of Chavez, or Castro, or Mao, or Stalin? Or will he create new mechanisms of soft tyranny?
These are uncharted waters. It could get ugly. I think it ultimately will.
For me, without wanting to appear over dramatic, this is not going away. I'm pissed off and fear this legislature will destroy medical device R&D within the next 10 to 15 years (I work in it). Going forward my political goal is to destroy the political careers of the idealogues who voted for this. We need to make small government conservatives a real political choice in this country.
A short boost in the polls followed by a continued downward drop. People aren't just angry because of Obamacare, they are angry because their voices were ignored. Democrats will lose a large number of seats in November and possibly the majority, and any Dem politician who thinks he or she is not going to have to defend their health care vote now that it has passed is a fool.
My representative - a Blue Dog (yeah, right) - voted for it but has the luxury of being in a safe district. Well, I'm not just sitting around moaning about that, I am going to contribute to the campaigns of opponents in not so safe districts (and already did so by sending some money to Benishek (Stupak's opponent).
This isn't over no matter how much liberals want it to be.
And I was singin
Bye bye to America, bye
I drove my Chevy to the levy
and the motor she died
Them good 'ole boys were drinkin
Whiskey and Rye
and singin
This'll be the way that I die
I'm just so happy the media didn't tell us about obama's communist father.
I think there will be some normalizing, but now there is a new normal. Fighting the feds will become part of our everyday lives.
I will be obstructive to all government initiatives.
I will follow the letter of the law. To. The. Letter. ....even (and when) it makes things worse for people.
I will "work to rule".
I will strike.
I will delay.
I will comply, but very very very slowly.
I will cut my hours.
I will answer your call, eventually.
Pogo, if you insist on working that hard you're going to make all the other government workers look lazy! Slow down holmes.
People are angry, but you're right dear Pundit...so what?
If this was your average government legislative puke, you'd be right. Oh taxes go up a tiny bit, some business has some new overhead to deal with...so what.
But in this case everyone is going to get a paycheck hit in a couple of months (just in time to remind them as campaigns start up). Then their COMPANY insurance plans are going to increase 20% in a few months to compensate for new coverages they have to legally provide and can't deny.
Then, as October/November comes and they have to choose/adjust insurance choices for next year it's going to go up another 20% as the actuaries start getting a handle on the new host of services they must provide and things they can't deny.
About the same time the government magic "insurance pools" are going to FAIL to come into existence as no insurance company is going to bid in a price range the government is willing to pay - so the Democrats are going to be faced with finding 150 BILLION to fund and create a new National Insurance Administration to provide the mandated government benefit.
In the same time frame the States are going to start screaming for Federal relief as they won't be able to afford the MANDATED services they now must provide under Medicaid.
For the GOP this is the political gift that just keeps on giving as every 6 months will bring another major Federal crisis of providing MANDATED services that will just cost more and more that the funding model didn't properly cover.
This isn't fire and forget legislation, it rolls out over years presenting new problems with it.
What Meade said.
I am familiar with Alinsky's rules, Cloward-Piven, and more from long-long-ago days as college liberal. I can fight this fight because I see no other alternative.
Amnesty is next. That will certainly fire-up those who believe in rule of law...like my husband, the naturalized citizen who was foolish enough to follow all the rules.
Thanks for going to DC, Meade, and for your photos.
I pledge to give the kind of service you have come to expect of all government services, especially as can be found at the Post Office in your local VA hospital.
Until 5 p.m.; then I'm off and you cannot reach me. of course, you probably won't be able to reach me when I'm here either, so, whatever.
"Whatever" is my new govt. health care mantra.
Leadership is the needed ingredient. Who will the parts of the opposition come together to follow.My preference is for Sarah Palin because she has the charisma needed to carry the elections among independents who also want to send a message to Kommissar Obama that they retain their suffrage even in face of a super sophisticated slander machinery operating as Obama's Mainstream Media puppets. The next media push will be to select a losing GOP 2012 nominee. Whoever the heroic narratives start to come out about among GOP hopefulls the next few weeks will be their choice for the loser for the GOP.
Meade - you rock.
Stupack is not an easy name to forget.
DBQ, I'll forgive you your needless, obnoxious rudeness because I imagine that you're angry about this bill, and anger often makes people tend towards the ad hominem. I really wasn't making a point about the content of the bill, as I explicitly said -- just about Obama's political chops, which really should not be challenged anymore.
And say goodbye to small town doctors. too bad.
You can drive your GM car to the appointment in the next big city.
If you can find a doctor. But hell, at least it's free.
"Then, as October/November comes and they have to choose/adjust insurance choices for next year it's going to go up another 20% as the actuaries start getting a handle on the new host of services they must provide and things they can't deny."
20%, what are you, nuts?
Let me ask you a question: If you owned a business, and the government just passed a law requiring people to purchase your product ... would you raise your prices only 20%.
Or would you triple your prices?
Every year?
Until the Golden Goose died?
Republicans have to quit witch hunting their own... for two seconds yesterday National Review quit going after Charlie Crist, and redstate stopped foaming about Bob Bennett of all people.
It's how you make sure Democrats don't become Republicans.
Ronald Reagan was a Democrat, and did not become a Republican until he was fifty one years old.
Today he would be "suspect".
Your husband has diabetes, no insurance because he was discriminated against, and now your whining because now a system will be put into place to help him? Seriously, what the H.
@Garage:
What part of....I don't want the Government to HELP or take over our financial and health decisions do you not understand.
I don't want the government to tell me what I can eat, what kind of a life I should lead and then TAX ME TO DEATH to do it.
I want the government to butt out of my life and to quit trying to 'help'.
I want the government to quit trying to steal from those who work and give to those who won't.
@NewHam:
Under the existing system we didn't get 'free' health care. We make too much money to qualify for any of the government goodies. WE are the ones who pay for everyone else.
Under the existing system, WE managed our own finances and health care. Pay out of pocket for basic medical costs, medication and supplies for my husband and carry a very high deductible HSA plan for myself since I have no medical costs or conditions.
Under the new system....my plan will be illegal and we will be forced to pay out of pocket ever larger premiums than before for BOTH of us AND be taxed at an ever increasing level to subsidize everyone else as well.
"Stupack is not an easy name to forget."
When I die, and get to Heaven and have a chance to talk to God, one of my questions is going to be:
"So what did you do to Bart Stupak for killing all those children?"
Many polls should be suspect.
I'll look at Gallup and Rasmussen.
TV and News-organization polls should be taken through a filter.
The MSM is still invested in one political party.
HCR reform is not what this is about. It's control and power. Imagine all of the areas of our lives that they can claim control of based on its impact on health care costs. Hand gun control springs to my mind. They'll hope to be able to bury it in bureaucratic policy but it won't work and then it will get real interesting.
Nope. Active defeat of democrats is my new normal mode. It's gonna cost me a lot of money and time, but my country is in need and I have a responsibility. The enemy have clearly identified themselves. Today is day one.
I just cancelled my subscription to a MSM liberal newspaper. Libs will get no more of money. The tax man may feel the pinch too.
According to NPR, the following benefits kick in immediately:
- Dependent children could remain on their parents' health insurance plans until age 26.
- Insurance plans cannot exclude pre-existing medical conditions from coverage for children under age 19.
- All existing insurance plans will be barred from imposing lifetime caps on coverage.
As mandatory enrollment does not occur for four more years, how can this not cause a massive hike in insurance premiums? Actually, if the plan all along was to wreck current system, leading inexorably to single-payer, I'd at least be reassured that the whole thing had been thought through in advance.
WV (no kidding): "hypeup"
"Now that it's happened, won't most people get bored with looking at the government and turn back to their immediate lives?"
That's a strange view of people for a university prof. Boredom doesn't quite fit here; the idea seems to be more that people will get resigned to it. Krauty's comment last night was that it will never be repealed. If people believed that, then becoming resigned to it, finding a way to adjust, would make sense.
Krauty didn't spell out why he thought this bill will be impossible fundamentally to change, but I think his point was that lots of people believe in the free lunch -- in the sense that someone else will pay. That's basically how it was sold by the Dems -- those on the paying end will be the 'rich' or the greedy insurance companies or some other group that deserves to be fleeced. The unions are big-time believers in that view of things, for example.
The furor over the bill was centered on the fact that many people know perfectly well that there is no free lunch and the endless entitlements that politicians love are already impossible to pay for (we aren't paying for them now, and won't pay for this new one either). Fiscal disaster is the entirely predictable result, which is what is playing out at the state level in CA, NJ, NY and many other places where the free lunch mentality has been in charge for a while now.
In terms of how we live, that means that our kids and grandkids will be left with an impossible mess. People are very unlikely to find that acceptable. Doing what it takes to protect them is not the sort of thing that normal people lose interest in because they get bored with it all.
I'm in the game now.
I have looked up two districts currently help by a democrat, and have contacted their opponents to contribute my time.
I am also now very interested pushing a constitutional convention called by the states, to get the federal government back in the box of limited powers.
The main argument to the state legislatures must certainly be (whether held by democrats or republicans) what's the point of being a state legislator if you don't have any power left?
I'm in the game on this one.
Has everyone seen the Stupak video from last year where he said that he would vote for the bill no matter what?
video
It was all a sham...
Yes, the whole health care industry has gone from free-market to government-controlled overnight. That's the bad news.
But look on the bright side! There's still a federal non-recognition of gay marriages from the states where it is legal. There's still a blanket federal ban on medical marijuana. There's national this and national that all over the place...
Too bad you conservatives didn't discover the Joys of Federalism years ago.
Too bad your Congressional majority of '94-'06 did everything possible to make national government into a one-size-fits-all solution.
Don't you see???? That's why Scott Brown is so appealing, and why people would like to orient their newfangled revolutions around him. Brown is fiscally conservative and federalist; his campaign was basically run on that platform.
You conservatives can rectify things as soon as you let go of your desire to control every fucking thing in this country. You need to promote a platform of fiscal conservatism and federalism on social issues, and you need to retire the Republicans who are so egotistical that they think can they make social laws for the whole country.
Yes, people will get used to change, but not before the Democrats are voted out in the next two elections cycles.
Also, since this legislation to dramatically changes EVERY American's life - it will reduce GDP growth immediately in a sluggish economy, cause confusion about health insurance which will affect everyone's decisions, and balloon the deficit much faster than the fantasy CBO numbers imply.
Like all the other countries with this kind of nightmare system, we will NEVER stop talking about it and reforming it as we sink under its weight.
The first fatal flaw is that it depends on the top 2% of earners to fund the whole thing. The top 2% just won't produce enough taxable wealth to meet even the CBO's shaky projections. That means that taxes will have to be jacked up on the middle class or medical care will have to be cut (rationed). You BET people will be talking about that.
We will never stop talking about it.
I suspect as our taxes skyrocket and we see no benefit from the expenditure, the anger in the country will rise.
We may want to forget it, but we'll be reminded of this garbage every time we look at our paychecks and stand in line or wait for months for any medical service.
Sorry, but we will not forget.
We've gotten used to bein' bled slowly over the decades. This law severs our aortae. This is only the beginning. Unlike Ms Atlman, I truly believe blood will run in the streets within 10 years regardless of who holds the reins of power. The cold culture wars are gonna go hot and the absurd alliances on the left among the wealthy, union workers, women, illegal immigrants etc will wither while the tree of liberty, watered by the blood of the middle class, will again thrive.
The coming depression will look nothing like the 30's. This one starts from the middle and after the private sphere goes belly-up the public sector is sure to follow.
Oh yes, I forgot, student loans (now run by the government) will suddenly become more expensive which is going to royally piss off all those youthful Obama supporters who were bullshitted into voting for him and the Dems.
My son, God bless him I dropped him on his head one too many times, is one of those who will soon regret his vote, what with his student loan rates destined to increase and his now totally free health insurance (he's a teacher and pays no premiums now) starts costing him when they renegotiate the rates next fall.
It's probably cruel of me but I do so look forward to seeing his face when this happens.
explicitly said -- just about Obama's political chops, which really should not be challenged anymore.
@Daniel
You can't tell me what should and should not be challenged.
The smug that you ooze is gumming up my computer monitor.
Once again. I hope you and your ilk, who elected this piece of shit to the White House and those other pieces of shit who have sold their souls with this vote, have to live in pain with your foolish choice.
Edited because I was yelling at the wrong person :-D
Comrades,
I have to disagree with Althouse on this one. Obamacare will be with us everyday. It is the take- over of the health care industry. A take over the comes on top of a take-over in the student loan industry, of auto companies, of bank bailouts, and an attempted take over of energy usage. Everyone will talk about it disparagingly. It is the first massive entitlement for the middle class that the middle class is not paying for - i.e., there is no bargain like Social Security and Medicare. It is a massive transfer of wealth. (Should you be allowed that flat screen TV when I am paying for your health care). It is massive Welfare for people who are not needy. Will Obamacare turn us into a patron-client society.... more and more laws will be passed to restrict the freedoms of clients - i.e., those receiving subsidies.
Also, the mandate is one of the most fascist laws ever to pass in America. It will be talked about constantly.
Obamacare is going to show up in the nation's finances - in the massive rise in government debt and interest rates. Obamacare will be one of the major reasons.
Also, will Obamacare kill Amnesty for illegals? Before, Obamacare, the cost of amnesty was impossible to compute. Now the cost will be $5000 x 15 million each year or $750 billion over 10 years. Will Amensty ever occur now. There will be many more fallouts that will come from Obamacare - the worst piece of legislation in our history.
Comrade Sloanasaurus
You conservatives can rectify things as soon as you let go of your desire to control every fucking thing in this country. You need to promote a platform of fiscal conservatism and federalism on social issues, and you need to retire the Republicans who are so egotistical that they think can they make social laws for the whole country.
You have made a very good point. What you do will definitely come back to bite you in the butt. Trying to shape an entire country leaves the door open to the other guy doing it too.
@DBQ:
"Under the existing system we didn't get 'free' health care. We make too much money to qualify for any of the government goodies."
With all due respect, you didn't try hard enough (or you are really rich). Federally funded health care centers provide free health care all day long and twice on Sunday to anyone who bothers to show up.
"Federally-funded health centers care for you, even if you have no health insurance. You pay what you can afford, based on your income. Health centers provide
1. checkups when you're well
2. treatment when you're sick
3. complete care when you're pregnant
4. immunizations and checkups for your children
5. dental care and prescription drugs for your family
6. mental health and substance abuse care if you need it
Health centers are in most cities and many rural areas. Type in your address and click the 'Find Health Centers' button to find health centers near you."
Taxpayers already provide the poor with free health care. Now, however, Barack Obama has signed a law requiring a large number of those people to purchase health insurance - the largest tax increase ever imposed on the poor in the history of the planet Earth.
I'm angry. I'm staying angry. In November we will start voting the bastards out. Deal with it.
Amen. I'm averse to politics but not averse to blogging, bumber stickers, donating to campaigns, writing letters to the editor, putting up signs, and fighting for freedom.
As the economy ticks up, the numbers of people angry enough to throw the bums out will begin to come down. Hopefully enough will remember this debacle to make November a watershed. I'd like to see Obama govern against a Republican Congress. But I'm not holding my breath.
I also expect a whole lot of nothing to happen for the rest of the year. Moderate Dems in the House have to be in shock -- either from bucking their party or from falling on their swords. None of theme are going to want to put their names to anything that reminds voters who (Pelosi) yanked their chains this week.
Interesting how much of what the Democrats have done is impending, and not actually happening. Last year's stimulus is still being spent to counteract the countries underlying debt and economic weakness. The health care plan will take ten years to trickle into place. Future cuts in Medicare are an IOU that no future Congress wants to redeem.
All this waiting will move most voters to disinterest.
But the Democrats can't avoid the major fact. They own Health Care now. And as Health Care costs continue to increase -- which they will -- it will be their problem.
Here's the car keys and bottle of whiskey. Enjoy the ride you've just bought.
AJ Lynch said...
I just cancelled my subscription to a MSM liberal newspaper. Libs will get no more of money. The tax man may feel the pinch too.
_____
Yeah, that's what I thought a lot of yall would be doing.
Notice too, that democrats don't seem to care about increasing revenue to the government to pay for all their out of control spending.
They raise our taxes, and wonder why revenues drop. Well, they don't wonder, they don't care; Because that wasn't the objective.
The objective is control.
Unsustainable punitive tax rate increases that cripple the economy force us to need the democrats/government even more.
In and of itself, the negativity over the bill would normally wane and recovery could begin.
Given all the broken promises, the lack of progress (or further decline) in economic matters, and most importantly that Obama's popularity was shallow and not based on a long hard record of service, I think the anger will not subside anytime soon.
But for the increasingly impotent MSM, there's not much working in his favor anytime soon. I don't see Obama coming into my congressional district (traditionally republican) and helping the first term democrat running for re-election.
Meade: I agree with you. Our anger will return to resolve. I also remind all that there is a core element in the democratic party that agrees with us. More will follow when Obamacare falls apart like a cheap suit-one thread at a time.
Obama is also ignoring national security in his quest to rearrange our country. Israel is not happy with him. China is not happy with him even and will be hard sell to finance future U.S. debt. Russia is busy in it's near afar expanding it's economic and military presence in the old republics. The scuttling noise you vaguely hear on the periphery of our conciousness is Islam making inroads.
There is more than one front than the economic one. As a senior I see Obama cutting funds for the military, medicare/medicaid and using student loans as a third source of funding for his massive overhaul. Social Security going bankrupt? No problem just keep them comfortable with placebos until they die off at the newly scaled down actuarial death date. I presume it will now be the date where social security kicks in.
The natural process is to stabilize and find normal.
The Federal Government will have found $4600 more in my pocket next year, and, if I stay employed, it'll find $9000 to $12,000 more in 3 or 4 years.
I will have found that I can't afford to spend a dime. I think many people will have found the same thing.
Which means lots of people will continue to find themselves unemployed. It's getting awfully hard to find that Keynesian multiplier in much of anything the Government can do in this economy.
And, with any luck, the Democrats will have found themselves the minority party for a good, long time, until the rest of us can find a solution to this disaster.
"DBQ, I'll forgive you your needless, obnoxious rudeness because I imagine that you're angry about this bill, and anger often makes people tend towards the ad hominem. I really wasn't making a point about the content of the bill, as I explicitly said -- just about Obama's political chops, which really should not be challenged anymore."
Obama doesn't have any political chops worth challenging. This was barely forced through by bribes, kickbacks, lies, CBO manipulation, and downright thuggery by Pelosi. If Obama had any chops he would have passed this last year with the support of some of the GOP.
It doesn't take any political talent to do what he and the Dems did, it just takes a total disdain for the American people and the Constitution.
Let's see how his chops keeps his party in the majority in November.
- Dependent children could remain on their parents' health insurance plans until age 26.
- Insurance plans cannot exclude pre-existing medical conditions from coverage for children under age 19.
- All existing insurance plans will be barred from imposing lifetime caps on coverage.
Hopefully companies will come out with these estimates before the elections..... But again this is a great example about the fallout of Obamacare.... before Obamacare you could blame insurance company increases on the insurance companies (even if it wasnt true), now they can all be blamed on Obamacare. Obama has turned the hatred back onto himself.
"Hopefully companies will come out with these estimates before the elections..... But again this is a great example about the fallout of Obamacare.... before Obamacare you could blame insurance company increases on the insurance companies (even if it wasnt true), now they can all be blamed on Obamacare. Obama has turned the hatred back onto himself."
The Democrats OWN health care now although I am sure they will try to blame it on Bush somehow.
I went to the grocery store in New Richmond this morning. McDonald's is hiring. There's a sign out in front.
I sure hope Cap and Trade passes next.
Booth
Bonnie and Clyde
"Baby Face" Nelson
Bundy
Bernie Madoff
Bart Stupack
"I just cancelled my subscription to a MSM liberal newspaper. Libs will get no more of money. The tax man may feel the pinch too."
AJ,
You've done the first part, now do some real damage.
Use their websites (suck down their bandwidth), but use Firefox with AdBlocker Plus so you don't get the ads.
Any ads that do get through, click them, but never ever buy anything from any of those advertisers. This helps to bankrupt the advertisers supporting the media that are partners with the Democrat Party enshackling us.
The internet gives you tremendous power to empty the pockets of the major news media companies and their advertisers, but only if we all work together to bankrupt them.
Now, go ... click their ads and destroy their advertising budgets.
Any bets that this comment thread breaks 300 by this afternoon?
Federally funded health care centers provide free health care all day long and twice on Sunday to anyone who bothers to show up.
Looked up my area. One was a non-profit center, good for them. None are open on Sunday, all operate like typical doctor's offices. I doubt seriously if any are free to anyone not on welfare. Non-profit mental health centers, which I have worked at, offer free services to those who have an income below a certain level. Everyone else pays, quite a bit if you have a good income or insurance.
Where will the poor get the money to pay the tax? Welfare, earned income tax credits, etc? They're tax payments will ultimately be made by us.
You gloss over the details and reality to perpetrate a lie.
Try hitting corner.nationalreview.com ... their server is barfing from the traffic.
Can one of the resident liberals esplain to me why inserting a provision for taxpayer funded abortions was even in the bill? I mean I thought this was about providing health care to the uninsured? Is getting an abortion health care now?
"Any bets that this comment thread breaks 300 by this afternoon?"
Not until AlphaLiberal shows up to spread his scat around.
Once people start to read the bill, they'll grow to like it. Like gruel. It's for their own good and Republicans are a dead party anyways. If you want to moderate things, you'll have to do it through the Democrat Party from now on.
Can one of the resident liberals esplain to me why inserting a provision for taxpayer funded abortions was even in the bill?
It was never in either bill.
@DADvocate said...
I found 14 free health care centers in your area DADvocate.
You simply cannot figure out how to use the website.
"...only progressives seem to able to muster the non-stop spleen to follow through what will be a long and difficult process."
That is because most of them do not work for a living. Being a progressive is a job in and of itself.
The one constituency who will be the maddest about all of this will be the young people. They have very little hope of finding a job and the fortunate few who do will be gigged with the FICA increase, mandated spending etc... On top of that is the fact that we have already spent every single dollar they will ever have in their lifetimes. It is all accounted for and there is no room for them to have anything of their own choosing. Tough, but it is their own fault for not having been born, or having been of age to vote, when these things were being decided for them. Taxation without representation has always been good enough cause for a revolution. Their grievance will be slightly more than a tax on tea don't you think? No generation is responsible for the debt of another. They will eventually figure this out.
In the mid-term, when the taxes and regulations "unexpectedly" keep the economy from expanding as fast as predicted and we are faced with ever greater shortfalls then the plan is to switch to inflation to make the deficit smaller in real dollars. This lets the government take not only what you are earning but what you have earned in the past. It is the backdoor way to confiscate even more assets. I am not sure it is even possible for the Treasury to service our debt if we raise interest rates enough to head off inflation.
This of course doesn't even take into account that we intend to run everything on unicorn farts and wishful thinking.
There is no foreign occupation force that could do so thorough a job destroying the country as our own leadership has done. Whoever says our government is not efficient simply misapprehends the central purpose that it is trying to achieve.
So the upshot is that you have more and more people like me who do not feel bound in any way whatsoever by any decision the government makes in any area. The social compact on which the country was based has been irrevocably broken. My compliance is obtained only through the threat of force. My life is comfortable thanks to my ancestors and my own hard work so I will not take to the streets. I think most of my age cohort feels the same way. But tell me, what will the next generation have to lose by rising up?
@ NewHam
Guidelines for the 'free' health clinics:
•Provide health care services at no charge, or at a nominal charge, to patients whose annual income is at or below the federal poverty guidelines and provide discounted fees to patients whose income is above the federal poverty guidelines but does not exceed 200 percent of the federal poverty guidelines.
For the State of California the 200% figure for a family of two is $29,140 for the year 2009.
As self employed persons who are over that threshold, we are not eligible for the 'free' or 'discounted' services.
WE are the ones who are taxed however to the eyeteeth to pay for those discounts.
Try hitting corner.nationalreview.com ... their server is barfing from the traffic.
Insta linked over two hours ago.
First thing the Republican party needs to do is to replace Michael Steele. He is a weak leader and needs to be shown the door. A stronger leader may not have been able to stop this but they would have been able to give voice to the opposition more effectively than Mr. Steele.
george - wrong. Young people will love the idea of universal health coverage. Another issue the GOP is on the losing side of history. America will no longer be the shame of the civilized world and will soon have single-payer.
"Can one of the resident liberals esplain to me why inserting a provision for taxpayer funded abortions was even in the bill?"
So they can kill black babies and what Democrat Scion of the Senate Robert Byrd calls "white niggers."
Change:
2004: "America, F*ck Yeah!"
2010: "America, Oh F*ck!"
Had enough?
Although the Beldam Pelosi (watch Coraline, you'll get it) was correct about one thing: This monstrosity will create thousands of jobs for the IRS gestapo that will make sure that you have purchased your government-approved insurance.
You think I rode a bus for 48 hours to come home and listen to this wussy bullshit? I'm angry. I'm staying angry. In November we will start voting the bastards out. Deal with it.
You da man. I started today. Going down to my friend, the local GOP Chairman and signing up. Already working on a website to generate donations and money bombs.
The middle class entitlement part of Obamacare still irks me the most. Middle class people are not supposed to be on welfare, that is why they are called middle-class. If you are buying luxuries like big TVs, cable, internet, nice clothes, going out to eat, etc... rather than buying health insurance that should be your choice. Now you can still buy all those luxuries and you will get a welfare check from the government. How are people going to feel when your neigbor spends all their money on new toys while also receiving a government check for their health insurance. The resentment is going to build fast on this one.
Look for Obama's approval rating to rebound back to the 60s even on Rasmussen.
Face it the GOP's attempts to equate the right to health care as a luxury good on par with owning a BMW has backfired big-time.
"The one constituency who will be the maddest about all of this will be the young people. They have very little hope of finding a job ..."
Nevertheless, they'll still be required to purchase health insurance.
So, no job ... no low-cost student loan, and a $13,000/year tax increase for the kids.
Thanks MTV!
Scott - is that the reason?
Hoosier - those on the left consider abortion to be women's reproductive health services, really.
The middle class entitlement part of Obamacare still irks me the most. Middle class people are not supposed to be on welfare, that is why they are called middle-class. If you are buying luxuries like big TVs, cable, internet, nice clothes, going out to eat, etc... rather than buying health insurance that should be your choice. Now you can still buy all those luxuries and you will get a welfare check from the government. How are people going to feel when your neigbor spends all their money on new toys while also receiving a government check for their health insurance.
Good luck with that. I hope the GOP runs on that platform and loses another 60 seats in the House, meow!!
BTW, it's another GOP lie that young people will have to purchase expensive insurance. keep up the lying though, the American people see right through you cons.
This is different. This /feels/ different to me, like when the Berlin wall fell but in reverse.
I can't find the exact quote but Henry Rollins once described Black Sabbath's sound as feeling like a serious man slowly making a fist.
That's how today feels. Not a hot white fire of anger, but a slow burning resolve that will probably remain lit within me for the rest of my life.
I don't think the Democrats have any idea what's coming for them.
That's how today feels. Not a hot white fire of anger, but a slow burning resolve that will probably remain lit within me for the rest of my life.
Oh please, spare us your drama queen antics. You, Althouse and McArdle are all really very funny with your hysteria. Elections have consequences and the vast majority of the American people want universal health care, MEOW!!!
@Alex, who dreamed: "Republicans are a dead party anyways."
What color is the sky in your world, dude?
In the reality-based world, Teddy Kennedy is dead and a Republican warms his seat in the Senate.
Wake up, dude.
Wake up.
It's so nice to have a man around the Althouse
First thing the Republican party needs to do is to replace Michael Steele. He is a weak leader and needs to be shown the door.
Right.
After the victories of Christie in New Jersey, McDonnell of Virginia and Scott Brown of Massachusetts.
Can one of the resident liberals esplain to me why inserting a provision for taxpayer funded abortions was even in the bill?
It was never in either bill.
Can one of the resident liberals esplain to me why Obama had to issue an executive order reaffirming a ban on taxpayer funded abortions if it wasn't in the bill?
Also, can someone esplain to me why abortion is now considered a health care issue?
"What's part(s) of the bill anger you the most?"
Being forced to buy insurance- a consumer financial product- to keep the cost down for entitlement weenies, slackers, and ne'er do wells.
Being forced to tell the government what insurance I have and how much coverage or be financially and criminally penalized.
The union free ride. If they can spend hundreds of millions of dollars of their members dues to buy and own politicians- they can cover half the cost of health care on every union contract.
Andy Stern and his SEIU Purple Shirts paid Obama six million dollars in donations. They own him, lock, stock, and barrel. He is Stern's slave.
What will they force us to do next? Mandated savings accounts? Mandated IRAs, mandated life insurance, mandated- take your pick how they want to force you to spend your own money.
Spare the lying comparison to car insurance. It floats as well as a boat with a hole in it.
"...only progressives seem to able to muster the non-stop spleen to follow through what will be a long and difficult process."
A long and difficult process that liberals forced on us. BTW, progressive my ass, progressive means you are moving forward, not backward to the failed system of communism.
I think the people who voted for Obama are hoping that the rest of us will eat this crap sandwich quietly and forget that they're the ones who got us into this mess in the first place. And when they pop up in 2012 to tell us that after a period of cruel neutrality they've decided to vote to reelect Obama everybody will just nod their head and say, yeah makes perfect sense.
those on the left consider abortion to be women's reproductive health services
Reproductive health services....talk about Newspeak.
"Elections have consequences and the vast majority of the American people want universal health care."
You're right, Alex, the vast majority of Americans do want universal health care.
So it's too bad that's not what they got yesterday.
All they got yesterday was the largest tax increase in American history and threats of IRS audits and fines.
Forcing people to buy insurance from Democrat Party lobbyists isn't providing anyone with health care.
It's just a payoff for Obama's donors.
Progressive want to move us forward into the 21st century along with Europe, while conservatives want to drag us back to the Gilded Age.
the vast majority of the American people want universal health care, MEOW!!!
No.
Don't be ridiculous.
There's not a single poll out there that proves that. Not one.
The way they rammed HRC through on party-line vote, with all the backroom deals, broken campaign promises, lack of honesty and transparency, no C-span, etc... only garners about a max of 39% approval. That's
with the MSM wind at the democrat back.
60-70% of this nation don't want it.
Stupak was bought for $750 million.
Gordon was bought by being promised to be made head of NASA.
Is there a full list somewhere of the bribes made for votes?
I'm with Quayle. A formerly staunch individualist, I've never belonged to a party, but I'll attend my first Republican fundraiser tomorrow night to start the process of revoking the job of my supposed Democratic "representative" who has so completely failed to represent. Time to get some volunteer time/op-ed/cash skin in the game before everything I vowed to protect while in the Army is gone...
Nonsense, if the Democrats didn't believe universal coverage was politically popular they wouldn't have rammed it through. Otherwise you're implying they just committed political suicide. I'm not buying that "conventional wisdom" of the rightwing-o-sphere. The American people will be deliriously happy when this becomes law. Especially that nobody will EVER EVER EVER be made bankrupt due to medical bills.
Millions of white men who voted for Barack Obama are walking away from the Democratic Party, and it appears increasingly likely that they'll take the election in November with them. Their departure could well lead to a GOP landslide on a scale not seen since 1994.
LA Times.
Besides it's funny to see conservatives wail about unemployment since their boy Shrub caused it in the first place with his reckless wars that drained our treasury.
it's another GOP lie that young people will have to purchase expensive insurance
How is this a lie. EVERYONE is required to buy insurance or be fined.
Exactly how expensive insurance will be, is unknown but I'm willing to bet that it won't be less than today.
Sure...parents CAN keep their adult/children on their policies until the age of 26....if they want to.
So far, we haven't been mandated to insure our shiftless kids who should be working and are ADULTS at the age of 18.
Joe
Was it 750 million?
Are you talking about the airports deal?
I feel sorry for Artur Davis and his wasted vote. He's still going to lose the governorship. I'd like for him to win, but he won't.
Don't take Alex's pathetic bait, people.
If you want to argue with a liberal, argue with one of the real ones rather than this pathetic troll.
What did Kucinich get?.. besides a plane ride.. (el sin verguenza)
"... if the Democrats didn't believe universal coverage was politically popular they wouldn't have rammed it through."
They didn't ram it through. First, not all people are covered. This is far from universal.
Secondly, in bi-partisan fashion, Democrats joined Republicans to oppose mandatory insurance purchases from Obama donors and lobbyists.
It is the only bi-partisan event that has occurred so far in Obama's presidency. Both Democrats and Republicans voted against the largest tax increase in history - which barely scraped by and will now face much pressure to be repealed.
People don't like being lied to - and Obama's lies are piling up:
* Promised to close Gitmo - LIE
* Promised no abortion funding - LIE
* Promised no illegal alien care - LIE
* Promised no more wars - LIE
* Promised to bring troops home - LIE
* Promised to end torture - LIE
* Promised no tax increase - LIE
You just can't lie this much to the American people and think you're going to get away with it.
Obama is a liar. He is making life rougher for all candidates of color by portraying them as untrustworthy.
He's doing damage to candidates of color nationwide.
It's sickening.
Elections have consequences, meow! Olby and Maddow are gonna be so happy today!!!
What will they force us to do next? Mandated savings accounts? Mandated IRAs, mandated life insurance, mandated- take your pick how they want to force you to spend your own money.
No kidding. Had Althouse commented on the mandate. As a Constitutional law professor it would be interesting to hear her opinion.
Anyway, it seems blatently fascist to me to levy a penalty on someone for not purchasing a good or service, even if the govenrment thinks such a good or service is a right????
If the mandate is struck down, would that negate the entire bill? How can you strike down the revenue raising portion of the bill and leave the rest of it.
20 ways Obamacare will take our freedom
Read and weep. This is just the beginning of total control over our lives.
So Meade travels all the way to DC on a bus. He witnesses the protests first hand. The democrats come out and proclaim that the protesters were all a bunch of racist meanies.
Dishonest bloggers take a photo of one sign and say "aha! Proof everyone there is a racist!"
(Never mind that there could be democrat plants in the crowd attempting to paint individuals a certain way - the way the media likes) (and certainly every crowd produces at least a handful of idiots. Remember the Bush=Hitler crowds?)
I'd be pissed about that too. One more reason democrats are lying crap weasels.
My mistake, I assumed Stupak was bought for $750 million. He was bought for $750,000. Good Lord. Mary Landreu got $300 million. Stupak is a loser for a politician.
House Cleaning - 2010
Eviction - 2012
Repeal - 2013
"Hey, I'm just going to keep my head down and continue following the rest of these cows up this ramp. It's starting to feel normal now. Hmmm, I wonder what those golden arches are up ahead."
Nonsense! Scott Brown's support of John McCain says otherwise (same w/ Palin). McCain's desire for the Presidency is what allowed Obama to run. Neither was a Natural Born Citizen (McCain born in Colon, Panama, Obama's father never a citizen).
Things seem to be getting pretty hot around the Right.
I wonder who among the major pundits will be the first to call the whole system up for grabs, and demand a physical seize of the government???
Isn't that what is meant when some of the commenters here write that there will be "blood in the streets"?
McCain was also disqualified because he's a two-faced asshole. The founding fathers just forgot to enumerate that disqualification in the Constitution.
Alex said... ObamaCare is dead, baby dead. 3/15/10 2:43 PM .
Julius first they are going to stop paying their taxes en masse.
Oh, Garage, I forgot to add this is not health care reform. The health care system is not being reformed at all. BTW, WTF do student loans have to do with health care? Hmmmmmmmmm?
Another sop to the entitlement people and cry babies.
I pledge to give the kind of service you have come to expect of all government services
I think the National Weather Service -- staffed by dedicated, hard-working federal employees -- gives excellent service.
I see a lot of wishcasting here, by the way, with respect to the coming election.
"If you want to moderate things, you'll have to do it through the Democrat Party from now on."
Yes, we'll have to go through the party of sneaky, backroom deals, which gave us a hollow big business approved victory for Democrats. They didn't have the political chops to get universal coverage without the help of big pharma and big insurance. Now let's see their exit plan from Iraq or 5% unemployment.
Today's the last day I buy much of anything I don't absolutely need.
Screw 'em all. No sales taxes from me, much as I can help it. Amazon for everything else. Cash transactions will increase, for them who'll take it.
We can hate the Democrats and all, but it wears a person out. Plus, some kind of insurance reform has to happen to keep the costs down. We also need tort reform. It doesn't matter in a sense who pushes it through. I don't like the government taking over a sixth of the economy, but on the ohter hand, we do need to get the hospitals to not have to pay for every bum and illegal who's out there. The Dems were thinking about this but they couldn't say it because they're supposed to be the ethical ones.
But there is a bottom line on that side which might be improved. The dad-blasted bums and indigents will now have some undergirding. As a people, we do need to remain moral with regard to the weaker members of our society as well as for the children who happen to belong to the mindless cocaine abusers and goofups in our society.
They're not responsible for their irresponsible parents.
But the rest of us are. There's no way around it.
I hope even the crummiest snotnosed brat has a fair chance in our society. To the extent that this bill makes that possible, it's a good bill.
You're saying Kucinich has no shame because all he got was a plane ride?
After railing about how this bill was a gift for the insurance companies he folded like a cheap tent.
"I think the National Weather Service -- staffed by dedicated, hard-working federal employees -- gives excellent service."
Then you don't know how unions operate.
I've seen the future: it's the VA hospital.
Good luck with that NWS plan when they cut MD Medicare fees by 21%.
"I see a lot of wishcasting here, by the way, with respect to the coming election."
Just a few years ago a radical, America-hating (semi)black socialist in Chicago thought to himself "I'm going to be President of the United States and crush the pig capitalists and get rich in the process!"
In other words, anything is possible.
Joe-
My mistake, I assumed Stupak was bought for $750 million. He was bought for $750,000. Good Lord. Mary Landreu got $300 million. Stupak is a loser for a politician.
Ya or it's even worse he went for that piece of paper Obama wrote...
20 ways obamacare will take away our freedom.
Dust Bunny - Thanks for the link.
I will give it to some of the young people in my family who voted for Obama. (they are very frustrated with the economy right now - and they don't understand economics at all)
Oooh, Kirby. Good one.
Perspective. It's a good thing.
We have lawyers, Kelo to healthcare we stand
FALSE PROMISES, LOTS OF DEMANDS
Courts are a battlefield
Conservatives are strong, no one can tell them they're wrong
Searchin' our bases for so long, both of us knowing
Courts Are A Battlefield
You're driving me to go, you're bribing Stupak to stay
Why do you hurt me so bad?
It would help me to know
Do I stand in your way, or is Reagan best thing you've had?
Believe me, believe me, I can't tell you why
But I'm trapped by your deficits, and I'm chained to your side
We have lawyers, Kelo to healthcare we stand
FALSE PROMISES, LOTS OF DEMANDS
Courts are a battlefield
Robert's will is strong, no one can tell Thomas he's wrong
Searchin' our bases for so long, both of us knowing
Courts Are A Battlefield
We're losing control
Do you realize Chinese bankers control us deep inside?
And before this gets old, will it still feel the same?
Our country is slowly starting to die
But if we get much closer, we could lose control
And if your heart fails, Obamacare will not hold
We have lawyers, gun rights to tort reform we stand
FALSE PROMISES, LOTS OF DEMANDS
Courts are a battlefield
Scalia's will is strong, even if Kennedy is occasionally wrong
Searchin' our bases for so long, both of us knowing
Courts Are A Battlefield
Today's the last day I buy much of anything I don't absolutely need.
Screw 'em all. No sales taxes from me, much as I can help it. Amazon for everything else. Cash transactions will increase, for them who'll take it.
Today should be the beginning of buying ample supplies of those things you need and want, because soon they will be unavailable, inflated out of sight or made illegal by the Nanny State. For your own good of course. I think I'll stock up on scotch and other bad things.
Cash is good. Cash is King. I expect that we will soon see many cash discounts /wink wink and barter transactions....in many occupations (carpentry, plumbing, auto repair, dentists, doctors, landscapers and many many more)
Mine isn't one of them. However, I can structure my business to keep my income just under the tax thresholds that I want. Also I am able to structure my business' legal incorporation to take advantage of tax strategies.
Serious question: How do you go about impeaching a Congresscritter?
Does it depend on the state?
"As a people, we do need to remain moral with regard to the weaker members of our society..."
No, we don't. I do not wish to be forced into charity. Charity at the point of a gun is not moral, it's slavery.
"...as well as for the children who happen to belong to the mindless cocaine abusers and goofups in our society.
They're not responsible for their irresponsible parents."
This simply justifies irresponsibility and creates even more abusers and goof-ups who will not have to ever worry about supporting their offspring.
"But the rest of us are. There's no way around it."
Yes there is, by encouraging actual charity.
"I hope even the crummiest snotnosed brat has a fair chance in our society. To the extent that this bill makes that possible, it's a good bill."
This bill doesn't make that possible because it ensures that the chance for success is more and more degraded as more and more people become dependent on other people's productiveness. How can you succeed in a failed society.
Please take your misguided charity-at-gunpoint beliefs somewhere else and stop fucking up my country, which until yesterday was one of the few places left where the poor had a fair chance of rising above their early lot in life.
This is another reason why religion and politics shouldn't mix.
Don't you tea bagging wing nuts just LOVE this?
From...David Frum, former speechwriter to President George W. Bush:
"Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.
It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections.
No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs?
How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?
We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.
So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio.
For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent..."
MY FAVORITE: "It’s Waterloo all right: OURS."
Congratulations, President Obama!!!
New York said..."Next time someone shows up with a ton of charisma and no track record, people are going to be much more hesitant to elect him. Charisma is dangerous and people have now been reminded of that."
So you think this is all based on "charisma?"
Duh.
DUH!!!!!!
What a lot of you don't understand is that this bill will actually strengthen the private insurance market because it will give them millions of new customers. How can a Republican be opposed to that? It more than preserves the insurance industry.
Palladian: "No, we don't. I do not wish to be forced into charity. Charity at the point of a gun is not moral, it's slavery."
Where does a gun come into this?
And what the fuck are you talking about when you use a term like "slavery?"
You are one dumb piece of work.
How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage?
I'd like everyone to take a look at that sentence and for a moment consider the absolute absurdity that barring mental or physical incapacity, a 25 year old person should still be dependent upon their parents for anything.
Agree with you Ann. We will adjust and shrug and complain. The "landslide" election in the Novemeber will be modest. Hopefully people don't forget and motivation remains intact. Sigh.
The cruel thing about it is that the only real option now is to get back to work. Work harder, work smarter. Try and compensate for some more taxation and some more economic drag. And curse that such instincts are what enables it all.
What a lot of you don't understand is that this bill will actually strengthen the private insurance market because it will give them millions of new customers.
We will see won't we? I mean having millions of new customers is really awesome but if those millions of customers are only required to pay say, $100 for a product that costs $150 then we'll see how strong the industry remains.
"I see a lot of wishcasting here, by the way, with respect to the coming election."
I'm wishing for Republican success because I firmly believe that otherwise the country will enter a Civil War.
We are not going to allow you to destroy America.
Sorry.
One way or the other, you are done with. You can go quietly, or loudly. But either way, you're going.
Sorry Ann, we will remember and stay upset until the law is changed. You can't generalize we will forget and stabilize because that is what we do. Epochs are made of this stuff.
Hoosier -
Actually the fines are worse than that for small businesses.
* Starting in 2014, businesses with more than 50 employees will be required to either offer healthcare coverage or pay a penalty of $750 a year per full-time worker. The coverage offered will also have to meet minimum benefits -- covering both a specific set of services and 60% of employee health costs overall -- or else employers will face additional penalties.
What Health Care Reform Could Mean for Small Business-atMoney.CNN.com
(I read somewhere the penalties could be near $2,000 per employee.)
The first employee limit is 100 employees-then the states can mandate that the limit is 50 employees immediately and then the 2014 limit kicks in.
So what this means is employers around the country might be incentivized to get their numbers below 100 and then the 50 mark.
If a business is sitting right now at 104 employees it's going to be mighty tempting to fire them.
Hopefully people don't forget and motivation remains intact. Sigh.
Unemployment is going to be the issue of the day in November.
"If a business is sitting right now at 104 employees it's going to be mighty tempting to fire them."
Tempting?
It will be foolish not to.
And it will be foolish for a small business to increase in size.
Goodbye, job growth.
I meant to say it's going to be might tempting to fire the four surplus workers to get your number below the first limit of 100.
Jeremy: What a triumph for your side. Against stiff bipartisan opposition you were able to pass a bill by less than ten votes. A bill that immediately has to be massively tweaked. Perhaps as you surf in on this victory you can gain a bit of maturity and maybe, just maybe, quit using juvenile utterances like "duh." Expressions likt that make you look more stupid than you already appear.
If a business is sitting right now at 104 employees it's going to be mighty tempting to fire them.
Or simply consider that business will just say ok and increase the employee's share of the premium.
"What a lot of you don't understand is that this bill will actually strengthen the private insurance market because it will give them millions of new customers.
"
And millions of doctors leaving the supply side.
Higher demand plus lower supply. What could possibly go wrong?
"The cruel thing about it is that the only real option now is to get back to work. Work harder, work smarter. Try and compensate for some more taxation and some more economic drag. And curse that such instincts are what enables it all."
...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
@NewHam-
I'm wishing for Republican success because I firmly believe that otherwise the country will enter a Civil War.
We are not going to allow you to destroy America.
Sorry.
One way or the other, you are done with. You can go quietly, or loudly. But either way, you're going.
See... Now that's what I'm talking about! It's a veiled threat of violence, and as such is just one step away from an outright threat of violence.
Yep-especially when you consider that about 70% of new jobs are created by small business.
Some people don't get that.
Small businesses and start -ups as they become successful will add employees exponentially.
Big corporations are maxed out-they have a hard time grabbing more market share.
Democrats have harnessed and handicapped the engine of Capitalism.
garage said:
This is just idiotic. Your husband has diabetes, no insurance because he was discriminated against, and now your whining because now a system will be put into place to help him? Seriously, what the H.
I say:
If I were on a sports team, and we won, and I later discovered it was because the refs had been paid off and my team members were cheating....I would be as mad as heck even if the win was technically "good" for me. Personal gain is not the bottom line when it comes to how things are done.
I found 14 free health care centers in your area DADvocate.
You need as reading comprehension lesson. I didn't say how many I found, I said one was non-profit.
And, as I said, none are open on Sunday. Some are open a half day on Saturday. And, I can guarantee you that none will be free for a middle income person like myself For those who get "free" services, it will be free to them as everyone who earms a living will be footing the bill.
If they can survive until 2014, the insurance companies may indeed thrive, and may be willing to take heavy losses to make it across the finish line.
But they will thrive after the manner of Ma Bell, as regulated monopolies. Many companies and very wealthy corporate types will happily settle for government oversight and reduced (though assured profits) in exchange for guaranteed customers and the elimination of risk and the need to compete.
But if this is indeed the road we're going down, I would have preferred a wholesale adoption of the Swiss system.
Personal gain is not the bottom line when it comes to how things are done
Well I tried to educate garage on that last week when he was trying to figure out why the Boston Tea Party protestors would oppose a law that lowered the price of their tea. See he didn't know the protest was about British parliament trumping the state legislatures and it was about colonial legislative rights and not about the damn tea tax.
I found myself thinking, as soon as the vote count reached 216 last night: Well, I hope some good comes of this and the bad isn't too horribly bad.
Precisely my reaction. Nothing to do now but make the best of it.
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