Here in Madison.
I went to a big teach-in at the University of Michigan circa 1969. What I remember most vividly is one speaker lobbing the vivid insight that it wouldn't be so bad if North Vietnam won the war. The crowd cheered. I can't picture a present-day crowd of students cheering at the idea of the Taliban winning in Afghanistan. I can't even picture much of a crowd attending a teach-in on Afghanistan. Especially, now that Obama is President.
March 17, 2010
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"I can't picture a present-day crowd of students cheering at the idea of the Taliban winning in Afghanistan."
That's because they've been taught they can't say it out loud. Kind of like the N-word.
They've learned to be able to think it and to communicate it amongst themselves using code.
They know if they say it, they'll lose their power.
An overflow crowd of more than 1,000 students packed the University of Wisconsin Social Sciences Building on April 1, 1965, for a 10-hour "teach-in" against the Vietnam War. An event patterned after the teach-ins of the 1960s is scheduled for this Friday. Its topic is the war in Afghanistan.
I went to a big teach-in at the University of Michigan circa 1969.
One year later, bombers Karleton Armstrong, Dwight Armstrong, David Fine and Leo Burt murdered a teacher in Sterling Hall at the University of Wisconsin.
@Meade: The scars of that bombing are easy to find and pretty close to Ann's office. Link
Where have all the protesters gone? No Code Pink and all the rest. None of the leftist blogs decrying Obama's wars and his escalation.
It is just like the homeless who disappeared after Reagan left office.
I guess this President is special. There will be no criticism, no protest, nothing that will tarnish the legacy and HiStory.
The only good aging hippie is a dead one. The only good leftist is also a dead one. You products of the 60's can't die fast and vast enough.
"it wouldn't be so bad if North Vietnam won the war. The crowd cheered."
It would be impossible to overstate my loathing for those sixties scum.
Any enemy of the American capitalist imperialist exploiters is a friend to the academy left.
Even enemies that would just as soon shoot the left because of their libertine hedonistic social policies.
Move along gullible students - no intellectual incoherence or Freudian death-wish to see here.
Teach-ins are not
healthy for children
and other
living things.
Where have all the protesters gone?
Off smoking pot and singing Kumbaya and masturbating together while Obama murders people in Pakistan with drone robots.
Like Sgt. Schultz ... they see 'nothink.
Here is Bill Ayers' events schedule.
The domestic terrorist friend of Barack Hussein Obama - whose home-grown terror cell attacked the Pentagon just like al Queda did - has gone deep into the tank. I wonder if he can sleep with the souls of all those innocent bystanding Pakistani children on his conscience.
Noted anti-Bush cunt Cindy Sheehan's "Global Action Alert" doesn't even mention Obama's war in Afghanistan or his war in Yemen or his war in Somalia ... but rather discusses the death penalty.
Absolute. Moral. Authority.
Methadras... I'm picturing a little Hitler mustache on your avatar. IMO a feistier Faustina would have enhanced the costume collection.
WV ingspiro- inspiration gone awry
According to that picture caption, the event in 1965, while it may have been called a teach-in, was specifically STATED to be "against the war in Vietnam".
Fast forward to 2010, and this teach-in is meant to be a "policy debate about Afghanistan", at least IMPLYING that there are TWO, count 'em, TWO sides to this story.
"Progress"?
The concept is so hilarious to me. Think about it. Someone with a particular point of view is organizing an event where you will come and hear that point of view.
The whole concept just seems pedantic and dumb. I guess it's because now you have so many ways to educate yourself and filter your own information. The ability of crackpot radicals to control information was easier when there were a few newspapers and a few television channels. Harder to be a crackpot radical now.
We won't leave Afghanistan not so much because we want to win, but because no one wants to lose.
What I don't understand is how anyone thinks we are going to win Afghanistan. Like in six months it'll be over. If you understand the terrain and the political culture just a little bit, you understand how susceptible the place is to hosting terrorists, how hard it would be win any war there, and at the same time how hard it would be to lose.
The only thing to do in Afghanistan is to hang out with our military and make it hard for terrorists to work there.
Can I teach this at the teach in?
Oh, and one thing about the way the election turned out is the wonderful phenomenon of the Democrats having to fight the war.
Patriot Act, Gitmo, Afghan escalation, and all. Now the country is much more united as far as the war is concerned.
I don't think that ordinary people were insincere about their opposition to the war, but a lot of politicians sure were.
"I don't think that ordinary people were insincere about their opposition to the war, but a lot of politicians sure were."
Agreed. But isn't that part of the problem?
The very same thing can be said about health care legislation.
I, for one, don't particularly want sincere politicians. A whole lot of lives have been lost and a whole lot of property has been confiscated by sincere people.
I want people to do my bidding, or at least the bidding of a large majority of the people who live where I live and face the problems I face and my community and my nation face. I'll take Bill Clinton over Barrack Obama any day, especially today.
You know what I hate about lefties the most? They impugn the motives of people who are opposed to their polices.
Republicans are evil about health care
If you oppose liberals, you must have nefarious motives.
These days, most politicians determine their position on these weighty issues based on what's best for their political future.
On the other hand, most Americans pretty well decide issues on how they perceive it will affect them and their family.
Understandable? Sure it is.
Best outcome for our country? Not always so sure about that.
MamaM said...
Methadras... I'm picturing a little Hitler mustache on your avatar. IMO a feistier Faustina would have enhanced the costume collection.
WV ingspiro- inspiration gone awry
You mean like this?
Love the Hilter baby!!!
Teach-in?!
Let's rap, man. Groovy.
Bra burning to follow.
Tune in. Turn on. Drop out.
Yes!!!
I remember one of my dad's private-lesson students canceling some lessons in 1972 because he'd gotten busted for streaking during a Newark (DE) H.S. basketball game. I can't imagine anyone streaking nowadays. I mean, for crying out loud!--even Tweenies know what even semi-smart cell phones are for.
checking in from nyc.. saint patricks still happening ;)
i'll check back when i get back to jersey..
saw the hitler baby from insta.. a kid dressed up by his mom.
When I went to college in the 1980s there wasn't much going on, politically. No war (at least none longer than a few days) and the economy was humming along pretty well. Definitely more of the "best of times" than "the worst of times".
Anyway, I think there was a teach-in almost every week by on group of disaffected Marxists or another. Usually the speaker had no idea what he was talking about, merely repeating propaganda from Chomsky or whoever. I always got the sense they were sorely disappointed at the lack of a draft and a reason to accuse the military of killing babies.
The whole thing seemed an affectation, you know, a lifestyle to make yourself look passionate so you could get laid more. Those people went on to buy BMWs and Rolexes after they graduated and joined the Gordon Gecko crowd.
Is Al Que`da not the target of interest?
It is a very nearly certain fact that we will at the very least have to negotiate terms with the Taliban. They will not be ground into unconditional submission by Satan, great or not. These guys are way, way more badass than the Vietnamese.
No matter how good a deal we swing, they will always claim victory once we leave.
In that sense, everyone should support a Taliban *victory* because they must win *something* for the Afghan war to end.
I suppose we could defeat them by genocide, but that might be considered illegal in some views. If found to be legal, genocide for victory could be justified.
It is certain the Teach-Ins will be worthless whatever is presented.
When I was an undergrad, many moons ago, the one attempt at a teach-in included our campus chapter of the SDS selling North Vietnamese savings stamps. The ROTC guys heard about it and beat the living daylights out of them. I'll never forget how shaken the Philosophy department was, "What about free speech?". Of course, the fact that the creep Leftists were trying to finance the people would be shooting at the ROTC guys in a year or so never occurred to them.
I can't picture a present-day crowd of students cheering at the idea of the Taliban winning in Afghanistan.
I guess you weren't paying attention to some of those war protesters chants and signs.
Unless they will be serving free beer by the keg, I expect the presenters will outnumber the audience by a factor of three.
"I can't picture a present-day crowd of students cheering at the idea of the Taliban winning in Afghanistan."
I can, easily. It would just take a little bit more subtlety in framing the context, but not much.
The lefties on campuses are there, certainly.
(The Handsome One, Again Not That The Others Aren't Good-Looking, But They Just Lack My Rugged Good Looks)
"All we are saying is is GIVE PEACE A CHANCE"
WV: fricisbu...come on this is like a literacy test! It's discriminatory...I bet Jeremy or Garage get words like "cat" or "Rethuglikkkan," but I get "Fricisbu". I assume it's fricaseed caribou, but I'm not sure.
The military should set up recruiting stations for the teachin. I mean, they all voted for Obama, right?
What, am I missing something here?
The Russians would have benefited from a society where the people could have gotten them out of Afghanistan.
I was in the military during Viet Nam. The news from "home" was predictably bleak and affected our morale. From teach-ins to Kent State to Jane Fonda in Hanoi we were on our own.
We won the military war in Viet Nam against the combined efforts of the Russians, the ChiComs and the NVA. The lefties then made the decision to negate our military victory by withdrawing financial support for our allies in South Viet Nam. General Giap was amazed but not surprised as the victory was handed to our enemies politically.
Given our insulting welcome when we returned home I personally have more respect for our military enemies than our political "friends' who failed us utterly. No hiding out in Canada, no draft card burning, no flag desecration for us.
Honor! Duty! Country!
USN 1966-1972
I think a big difference between teach-ins then vs. now: Then, the people who were at the teach-in were there, completely. No communication with the outside. A Teach-in might have been like a web search for information today, only the information -- albeit slanted -- came to the student rather than the student seeking out information (also slanted) on the www.
Nowadays, they'll all be texting their friends while half-listening, or using the free wi-fi to work on homework assignments. How can a multi-tasking generation go to a teach-in?
"Tune in. Turn on. Drop out."
Would that the old hippies "would drop" out of society ...
"We won't leave Afghanistan not so much because we want to win, but because no one wants to lose."
This is incorrect.
We won't leave Afghanistan for the same reason we still have a military presence in Japan and Germany: We never leave.
And we shouldn't.
There is a price to be paid for attacking the United States of America and that is the forfeiture, forever, of your lands to us when we defeat you on the field of battle.
We spilt our blood and treasure taking over Afganistan.
It's fucking ours now.
"No matter how good a deal we swing, they will always claim victory once we leave."
See above.
We never leave.
I'll never forget how shaken the Philosophy department was, "What about free speech?"
Nobody ever said there weren't consequences to free speech - just that the government couldn't shut you up. And I'm guessing those ROTC guys were not acting on orders from the government. I guess the Philosophy Dept didn't really understand the First Amend.
No empire is going to survive long wasting resources in places like Afghanistan.
I have a perfect solution. Send NewHam to Afghanistan to guard our treasure of rocks and mountains.
"it wouldn't be so bad if North Vietnam won the war."
Well, history kind of proved him right, didn't it?
Nobody ever said there weren't consequences to free speech - just that the government couldn't shut you up.
There is a big differnce between saying 'I hope the NVA wins the war' and providing financial support to the NVA to win the war. One is speech the other is aiding and abetting in a material fashion. IMO, a simple beatdown wasn't good enough.
No empire is going to survive long wasting resources in places like Afghanistan.
We'll survive just fine although we'd be better off buying off a few tribes rather than wasting resources trying to teach democracy to a bunch of 11th century militants.
Well, history kind of proved him right, didn't it?
Except for the couple million boat people and subsequent bloodletting yeah I guess.
Well, history kind of proved him right, didn't it?
Given that we don't know how history would have evolved had the US "won", I don't think your statement means much.
Madison Man,
the difference between teach-ins "Then" and "Now" isn't that great. Many of the same people will be there, the only difference is that in the 1960's they were in the audience LISTENING, and now they'll be teaching...but they'e the same smelly hippies.
Given that we don't know how history would have evolved had the US "won", I don't think your statement means much.
Yeah because Taiwan and Korea, and Japan, and Germany are human rights H3ll-holes and economic basket cases.
Dude/dudette just admit it, they bad guyz won in Vietnam...all the smelly hippies were pulling for the wrong people.
Given that we don't know how history would have evolved had the US "won", I don't think your statement means much.
Well past performance is not indicative of future results but I'd say the examples of postwar Germany, Japan and South Korea would favor the odds that had the US 'won' Vietnam would have been a lot better off.
Unless of course you were a Nazi, Japanese Imperalist or North Korean communist.
Linear thinking in a non-linear world.
it wouldn't be so bad if North Vietnam won the war. The crowd cheered."
Yeah, and how well did that turn out for the people of Vietnam, what with the reeducation camps, executions, boat people, etc.? Stupid is as stupid does.
"I can't picture a present-day crowd of students cheering at the idea of the Taliban winning in Afghanistan."
Maybe not, but I do rememeber hearing people say, "We support our troops who kill their officers." I remember a certain college professor calling the people who died in the World Trade Center "little Eichmanns".
Stupid is as stupid does.
Unless of course you were a Nazi, Japanese Imperalist or North Korean communist. A TRUE multi-culturalist WOULD take their feelings into account. After all they are merely different “narratives,” Hoosier. No narrative is inherently more valid than any other….A better solution to our problems would have been INCLUISVIVE of these varying narratives, allowing the Nazi’s, Japanese Imperialists, and any North Korean Peoples Party members to have been included in a post-war arrangement….Sheeesh, you ARE slow.
Linear thinking in a non-linear world. No evidence based reasoning confronting WISHFUL THINKING.
We see how US dependecies turned out versus how Marxist-Leninist turned out...we draw the proper inferences.
Dude/dudette just admit it, the Hippies were and are wrong...
The Truth Shall Set YOu Free.
Linear thinking in a non-linear world.
That's why I prefaced my comment with that sentence about past performance. That being said, odds favored a better Vietnam had we supported the South all the way.
Yeah, and how well did that turn out for the people of Vietnam, what with the reeducation camps, executions, boat people, etc.? Stupid is as stupid does.
You never heard the term of having to break a few eggs to make an omelete?
People who are for Communism never seem to be living in the actual Communist countries.
Friggin idiots.
One year later, bombers Karleton Armstrong, Dwight Armstrong, David Fine and Leo Burt murdered a teacher in Sterling Hall at the University of Wisconsin.
Armstrong now operates a juice cart on the Library mall. "Loose Juice".
"No empire is going to survive long wasting resources in places like Afghanistan."
That's right, so it's a good thing we're not wasting our resources there. We're using our resources there very wisely to contain Iran - our strategic target.
The Taliban are not a strategic enemy. Our destruction of their hegemony is merely tactical.
"People who are for Communism never seem to be living in the actual Communist countries."
That's because everyone who has ever lived in a Communist country converts to Capitalism.
Communism is a nice theory that has never survived contact with reality.
Our system of government is not set up to create an objectively defined 'best outcome for the country'.
It is, however, setup to enable a series of feedback loops. The electorate selects representatives who meet for debate on the issues facing our country. They in turn return face subsequent elections which requires them to inform the electorate of their decisions, explain them, and demonstrate that their actions are consistent with both good judgement and the desires of the electorate.
It's a two-way street. The electorate can be informed and persuaded, just as the representatives are required to show that they are at least listening to the opinions of the constituents. In the end, representatives always have the option of voting their consicence, re-election be dammed.
@NewHam
Don't you mean Pakistan? Iran is a problem to be sure with their support of terrorists in the region but they can't hold a candle to Pakistan who have nukes right now and are in the middle of a real conflict in Kashmir with India and who are probably the biggest AQ safe haven in the world.
One year later, bombers Karleton Armstrong, Dwight Armstrong, David Fine and Leo Burt murdered a teacher in Sterling Hall at the University of Wisconsin.
Armstrong now operates a juice cart on the Library mall. "Loose Juice".
The Supreme Court of the State of Oregon refused to admit David Fine to the Oregon State Bar after law school, due to his lack of remorse. He's a paralegal in Portland.
"The ROTC guys heard about it and beat the living daylights out of them."
Cool.
"People who are for Communism never seem to be living in the actual Communist countries."
It would have been wonderful if a few thousand of those sixties radicals could have ended up in North Vietnamese "reeducation" camps. It might have been educational in a way they didn't expect--for those that survived.
You products of the 60's can't die fast and vast enough.
Excuse me, Methedras, but not all of us who lived through the sixties went to teach-ins, smoked pot, and drifted through life. Some of us worked our way through college (something you can't do anymore, I'm sorry to say). A few of us wore olive drab for a two or three years, and some of us would never live to wear anything else.
The hippies and the professional protestors of the sixties have a lot to answer for, and now that they're the limousine liberals their money mostly shields them from answering.
But Methedras, my old friend, if you want to lump me in with them, your getting on the fighting side of me.
The best thing that can ever happen to a nation is for it to be defeated in war by the United States. The historical record is overwhelmingly clear. Now if we could just defeat our own government, we might have a similar bright future. It's unfortunate that after stripping away the oppressive governments of millions of other people around the world and setting them free, we watch our freedoms dwindle and vote for more. Only we could do this to the historical miracle that has been the United States.
"I can't picture a present-day crowd of students cheering at the idea of the Taliban winning in Afghanistan."
True, but what about a present-day crowd of professors?
"People who are for Communism never seem to be living in the actual Communist countries."
That's because everyone who has ever lived in a Communist country converts to Capitalism.
This isn't exactly true. There are those who did quite well under communism. They had their special priviledges, their dachas, their limos, etc. They thought communism was just dandy. It was the 99.9% of the population who lived under their rule who didn't exactly make out so well. However, there are a lot of people who're looking back at communism with nostalgia. Sure, their lives sucked but they didn't have to work very hard for what little they had.
Communism is a nice theory that has never survived contact with reality.
To hear some professors, "true communism" has never been tried and it failed because the "right people" (meaning them) weren't in charge. What these useful idiots don't realize is that under a communist government, they'd likely be the first ones lined up against a wall and shot.
Excuse me, Methedras, but not all of us who lived through the sixties went to teach-ins, smoked pot, and drifted through life. Some of us worked our way through college (something you can't do anymore, I'm sorry to say). A few of us wore olive drab for a two or three years, and some of us would never live to wear anything else.
Very true. Born in 1957, I was too young to go to Vietnam. However, I did join the military right out of high school. I worked my way through college. My wife and I have always lived within our means and the only debt we have is the mortgage on a rental property. We are Boomers only by definition, not by how we've lived our lives. There are millions of people like us out there. Don't lump us in with those hippy/liberal cretins.
"The Russians would have benefited from a society where the people could have gotten them out of Afghanistan."
Right. Because those two wars were exactly the same. Remember the good old land mines made to look like toys we scattered all over vietnam? No?
""it wouldn't be so bad if North Vietnam won the war.
Well, history kind of proved him right, didn't it?"
I don't know, why don't you run that by some of the boat people? Or some of the people killed in the camps. Whoops, can't. What with them being dead and all.
"Communism is a nice theory that has never survived contact with reality."
It's not even a nice theory. One of the many lies that leftists tell is that communist theory advocates peace and tolerance. The opposite is true. It is full of incitement to hatred, and advocacy of violence and tyranny, and the extermination of "undesirable" groups.
garage mahal said...
I have a perfect solution. Send NewHam to Afghanistan to guard our treasure of rocks and mountains.
Gee, garage, I thought your puppet masters always said it's all about the oil.
WV "noting" Completely empty, as, "When garage/Montagne/Jeremy have noting to say, they usually say it".
What I remember most vividly is one speaker lobbing the vivid insight that it wouldn't be so bad if North Vietnam won the war. The crowd cheered
How fucking disgusting. Those people didn't give a shit about the Vietnamese. If they did, they would have been storming the Russian embassy, demanding that the commies stop sending arms to the aggressors.
These fucking idiots probably became professionals living comfortable, self-satisfied lives, whereas the Vietnamese they pretended to defend ended up dead or in re-education camps.
"it wouldn't be so bad if North Vietnam won the war."
Well, history kind of proved him right, didn't it?
I dare you to go to Saigon right now and tell that to the survivors of the re-education camps. I dare you to go tell that to the ethnic Chinese who were impoverished, jailed, or killed in the aftermath. I dare you go tell that to even the former communists in the south, who fought what they thought was a war for all Vietnamese, only to be cast aside or jailed by the party honchos of the north. It was a war of liberation, right? No, it was regional civil war in which the northerners employed a bunch of useful idiots in the south and in America to gain dominance over the whole country.
Shoot, come here to Little Saigon in San Francisco and tell the people that you're so glad the commies won. The cops just might find enough pieces of you to confirm your identity.
"‘This is just like it was back in Vietnam,' " said Joseph Elder, a UW-Madison professor who was at some of the Vietnam teach-ins."
Funny that... the context of that quote is Obama's sending of troops to Afghanistan being "just like it was in Vietnam". Looks like The One has lost some of his shine amongst the far left.
I wonder if Professor Elder realizes that there is one other element of today's fight that echos Vietnam: The opponent's repression of the people. Ask the boat people or the Hmong what life was like under the Communists. Then ask Afghanis what life was like under the Taliban.
Guess the old coot's counting on the fact that Afghanistan's landlocked, therefore if his viewpoint prevails, no boat people can come to shame the US.
Do you know why the right continues to accuse the left of hating America and being commie sympathizers? Because we can't forget shit like this.
We can't forget the fucking tools of the left who draw some kind of moral equivalency between the US and the USSR during the Cold War, or those idiots who cheered on the enemy in Vietnam.
My blood gets boiling when I hear some fucking "educated" tool informing me that our involvement in Korea was a mistake, and that the ROK was no better than the communists at the time. Say that shit to my face and this Korean will gladly go to jail to give you a beatdown. My family and countrymen suffered horribly so that some commie douchebag could pursue his dream of creating a workers' paradise--it would be funny if it weren't so tragic.
It would have been wonderful if a few thousand of those sixties radicals could have ended up in North Vietnamese "reeducation" camps.
What makes you think they wouldn't be the 're-educators?
Bleu9/Tibore;
Well said. Payback comes in small batches. Note the progeny of the balding ponytailed, hippy professors rioting now in Santa Cruz, Berkeley and Davis over tuition hikes. Their favorite idiot of the month teacher: reflexology, shiatsu, massage, healing, feeling, hemp clothing, medicinal marijuana cultivation, etc., is losing his/her job due to budget cuts resulting in 60's redux protests.
So how does that Masters Degree in any of the above help pay the rent unless you are camped out in a redwood tree scheduled for logging? I can smell the pachouli and lack of deodorant wafting on the winds of change.
These people create their own gulag to live in. If the sandal fits, wear it.
wv; brateg- something the gravity challenged aging female sandal wearers should not burn...please!
OMFSM*, it's a hippie infestation!
* OMG for atheists. FSM is Flying Spaghetti Monster.
It would have been wonderful if a few thousand of those sixties radicals could have ended up in North Vietnamese "reeducation" camps.
What makes you think they wouldn't be the 're-educators?
The sheeple followers might have been, but the guys up at the microphones would have been put up against the wall.
Commie sympathizers seem to be wholly ignorant of the fact that a communist revolution requires huge amounts of violence and repression--how else do you take away people's stuff?
In addition, they forget that violent revolutions are nearly always led by those who are the most ruthless and the most paranoid about potential rivals. Even if the revolution is started by a well-meaning humanitarian, it will inevitably be hijacked by a thug who has no such concerns. In a new order where violence is the path to power, the most powerful are those who are most ruthlessly violent.
I'm always amazed that lefty professors think they'll live through a communist revolution. Do they think they'll lead it? Howard Zinn would have been first among equals--in an unmarked grave. As potential rivals, they'll be the first ones against the wall, along with the doctors, lawyers, businessmen, and actors. Actors? Yeah, actors too. Popularity is about as dangerous as education and outspokenness when a thug with a gun is trying to consolidate power.
... it's all about the oil.
Then why are we in Afghanistan? According to the CIA Factbook Afghanistan exports zero bbl of oil per day.
I didn't go to any speakeasies in the 60s, so I guess it would be inconsistent of me to go to a teach-in today.
In 1970 I went to a political meeting at UC Berkeley where, before the start of the proceedings, the radical organizers, in an attempt to educate the student activists, showed a documentary on the Spanish Civil. As soldiers rushed forward in jerky sepia footage, the announcer noted that "the rebels are advancing on Madrid," whereupon the room burst into cheers.
These student activists didn't know that the leader of "the rebels" was Generalissimo Francisco Franco. Just the name "rebel" was good enough for them.
Will Terry Teachout be at the Teachin?
If so, I'll be there too.
Ugh. Just the word: "teach-in."
Barf.
I'd be against the Founding Fathers if they called their meetings "teach-ins."
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