IN THE COMMENTS: Chip Ahoy said:
Great reception. She was reading form cards! CARDS! That proves she doesn't know what she's talking about, and LOOK! Now, there's this:
February 8, 2010
Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Video of her entire speech and Q&A at the University of Wisconsin last week.
IN THE COMMENTS: Chip Ahoy said:
IN THE COMMENTS: Chip Ahoy said:
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133 comments:
Has a left-winger ever stood up for her? I bet Andrew Sullivan blasts her as a racist, Muslimophobe.
oh this is cute:
"UW constitutional law professor Asifa Quraishi cautioned audience members during a question and answer period not to take Hirsi Ali’s message as the whole story.
Just as American constitutional law cannot be reduced to specific controversial laws, Quraishi said neither can Hirsi Ali’s message.
"I advise all of us to take a pause and think that maybe there is a little bit more to this story than we have heard tonight,” Quraishi said.
Even when Gordon Liddy lectured us, our professors didn't need to hold our hands and tell us what to think.
[...]
"At the UW Law School, Quraishi is teaching a combination of core law school classes in Constitutional Law, and electives in Islamic law and jurisprudence"
@Fen,
And you wonder why there is such disdain for the lawyerly profession?
Great reception. She was reading form cards! CARDS! That proves she doesn't know what she's talking about, and LOOK! Now, there's this.
No, srsly, that was really good, as always. I did expect the same thing rehashed.
Q & A: Those two girls in Texas, whose name I cannot remember and uh er which pretty much demonstrates the point you made …
Amina and Sarah Said, make a note of it. Although it's unlikely to appear on any crossword you might solve.
I love the way she squashed that gasbag colleague of our hostess the one with two hats, Asifa Quraishi, who mentions three times she's a constitutional law professor and something acchhicchhucchh something, welcomed Hirsi Ali (hatlessly), then suggested listeners consider there's more than one side to this story * applause * to which Hirshi ali responded but Kyle Mianulli deemed fit to omit in his reporting, "Yeah, Bitch, there isanother side to this story. Try having this same discussion in Saudi Arabia and see how far you get, Douche. You are so totally pwned!" *applause * <--- I might have possibly paraphrased that a little loosely.
In all, I'm impressed with the civil reception UW gave her.
Althouse, many thanks for the link.
It was especially gratifying to hear Ayaan state that Islam is not a religion, but rather a [violent] political movement. Hellbent on killing.
Cool:
Now I have something pleasant to fall asleep to,...
The Macho Response.
""I advise all of us to take a pause and think that maybe there is a little bit more to this story than we have heard tonight,” Quraishi said."
Did the audience even realize they were insulted.
The silence of feminists is deafening when it comes to the obscene treatment of women by muslims.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a very intimidating woman, in a very good way.
I generally find atheists unpleasant, but she is an exception in that her desire to protect peaceful believers is paramount. Heroically principled.
The silence of feminists is deafening when it comes to the obscene treatment of women by muslims.
Femenism is synonymous with religious freedom in America ;)
I'm sorry Fe, you obviously did listen.
Asifa Quraishi took an inordinate amount of the valuable Q&A time to declaim often and boastfully about those two hats, yet she ignored her hat that her listeners were most acutely aware of, the tall pointy one with the letters D U N C E imprinted.
If young people or anyone else wants to see what speaking truth to power really is, this woman is it.
Speaking out when it could cost you your life, maybe today, maybe 5 years from now, but probably eventually. Giving yourself a life sentence just to speak the truth and free people from evil. I'm in awe.
Has anybody ever seen Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sarah Palin in the same room together?
Two women equally feared, hated and admired.
And for the same reasons.
Ann, why do Democrats hate women so much?
wow, Lem ! The notion that Sarah Palin is in any sense on the same level as Ayaan Hirsi Ali is pure fantasy. Very telling though. Its a shame you think so poorly and so offensively of your fellow americans who disagree with you on policy.
Oh wow-I just sat through hat woman's "question" sounded like her resume and a description of her hat collection.....
Does she have a hat to cover her asinineness?
Cuz she would need a sombrero.
Off topic, but Murtha died. I did not care for his politics, but he was a Marine who served in combat. So RIP.
Has anyone else ever notice how African women and men, generally look different from African-Americans. Even when dressed the same, I think I could usually tell them apart. What is that?
Murtha did not distinguished himself commenting on the incidents in Haditha.
just saying.
What is that?
A very risky conversation?
I was looking forward to seeing Murtha thrown out. So I do mourn his passing. R.I.P.
bagoh20: white slave owners.
"white slave owners"
That's all I can imagine too, but it is almost universal to me, even with very dark African-Americans who otherwise appear to have no white genetics. Still I guess you're right. I was just kind of fishing to see if others noticed it, because I never hear it discussed.
bagoh20: white slave owners.
Well, that plus the fact that Africa is a big, genetically diverse place and East Africans like Ayaan Hirsi Ali never looked like the ancestors of most American blacks in the first place.
Lem. Yes. Murtha was wrong on Haditha. He was wrong on a lot of things. But now he is dead. And he did serve in Korea. So RIP.
I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the most courageous living person in the world. The University of Wisconsin Muslim Student Association should have shown her more respect.
"Enlightened" people are so intent on demonstrating tolerance that they won't even get out there and condemn the murder of homosexuals under Islamic law.
What are the chances of any of them putting any effort into defending girls against forced marriage to men they've never met?
Though Ayaan Hirsi Ali is certainly 100% correct that if that was happening to a white, Western girl, we wouldn't hear the end of it.
The dig at feminists getting bent about a pro-life superbowl ad hopefully hit home with someone. A person can at least hope. Did everyone see the twit from Amanda Marcotte?
http://twitter.com/AmandaMarcotte/status/8784856397
I'm so happy for her that she managed to find some violence against women to motivate her day.
It's a lot of work, searching that hard to find a cause to advocate for.
Fen,
Democrats do not hate all women. They just want them kept in their place(s)- Whole Foods, yoga classes, academia, news readers, the gym, non-profit orgs., etc.
Democrats only hate strong independent women. They are a threat. Women are not allowed to be independent critical thinkers. Women of intelligence and substance make Democrats uncomfortable. They make them feel, well, unsubstantial and stupid.
BTW, do you think Danielle is Jeremy's wife?
danielle wrote:
Its a shame you think so poorly and so offensively of your fellow americans who disagree with you on policy.
Since when in this country has taking offense from another's political views been shameful? Oh, silly me, I forgot ...
I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the most courageous living person in the world. The University of Wisconsin Muslim Student Association should have shown her more respect.
No blather, plather, or lather. Just plain, common sense speech. Simple truth.
I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the most courageous living person in the world.
Call me crazy but I don't expect her to get the JFK Profiles in Courage Award.
Sorry but to me the most courageous woman in the world is the one having to take care of multiple disabled children in total anonymity. Ms. Ali is world famous and shit. Maybe even gets to have rare clumbers. Tell me her shit don't stink!
You are right Fred...
Let Murtha R.I.P
(maybe ;)
Quaestor, i guess you missed the implication of Lem's statement. Let me spell it out for you: a large swath of progressives/liberals are NOT seeking to assassinate Sarah Palin. The suggestion that progressives/liberals would behave in such a way is offensive.
.... so clearly, Sarah Palin is not hated or feared in the way that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is hated and feared.
Alex,
The most courageous person in the world stands up in front of a croud of nearly 2,000, some of which would rather see her shot dead at that moment, and speaks out against the killing of other innocents.
This is after she fled being sold into slavery.
This is after she read her own death sentence on the severed head of Theo van Gogh.
You write like you're drunk. Go to bed Alex.
Off topic, but Murtha died. I did not care for his politics, but he was a Marine who served in combat. So RIP.
No. Murtha falsely accused my fellow Marines of war crimes and refused to apologize or retract once they were acquited.
Fuck John Murtha. May the dogs dig him up and defile his remains.
I thats without even considering Murtha's rape of little boys. He's a child molester. I hope he rots in hell.
Alex wrote:
Sorry but to me the most courageous woman in the world is the one having to take care of multiple disabled children in total anonymity.
Ok, lemme get this straight. Meade offers effusive praise for Ali's courage, and you denigrate that courage by contrast to the courage of some other totally unknown woman.
Where I come from contrasting something real with something hypothetical is called "stupid."
wv: hialneut - How Nazis greet the former Speaker.
oh, and peter -- how right you are about democrats and their treatment of women. self respecting women should clearly join the political party that will try to regulate what is allowed to grow inside of their bodies! all those women who vote democratic -- and who would really prefer the govt stay out what goes on in their wombs -- are so crazy !
A very large swath of Muslims are NOT seeking to assassinate Ayaan Hirsi Ali either Danielle.
Although I did read about a comment a caller made on CSPAN about Sarah Palin's speech.
One caller to C-Span – which aired nearly the entire convention – said the sight of primarily white and older self-described “patriots” frightened her. She said the gathering looked like a lynch mob.
wow, Lem ! The notion that Sarah Palin is in any sense on the same level as Ayaan Hirsi Ali is pure fantasy.
Yes it is, a fantasy concoted out of your own mind. I believe Lem merely stated that Ali, like Palin is hated, feared and admired. I don't think he was comparing life histories.
One would think there would be a straw shortage considering how many of you lefties use it to build strawmen.
Quaestor, i guess you missed the implication of Lem's statement. Let me spell it out for you: a large swath of progressives/liberals are NOT seeking to assassinate Sarah Palin.
Yes you are correct. Large swaths of progressives, unlike Muslims aren't seeking to murder someone whose opinion they find offensive.
ou write like you're drunk. Go to bed Alex.
I resemble that remark! *hiccup*
Anyways! Back to the tropic at hand! *hiccup* So what was I talkin' about anyways?
Fen said...
No. Murtha falsely accused my fellow Marines of war crimes and refused to apologize or retract once they were acquited.
Fuck John Murtha. May the dogs dig him up and defile his remains.
You are entitled to your opinion Fen. I was equally mad about that issue too, having served in the Marines myself, but Murtha is dead and he did serve honorably in Korea. So I am glad he is no longer in Congress, but I will wish him to RIP. I am not excusing his errors, which are massive.
danielle wrote:
Quaestor, i guess you missed the implication of Lem's statement. Let me spell it out for you: a large swath of progressives/liberals are NOT seeking to assassinate Sarah Palin. The suggestion that progressives/liberals would behave in such a way is offensive.
I ignored Lem statement. In fact it has nothing to do with my remark. I'm just amused at how thin the Left/Liberal hide really is. Hypocrisy does tend to make one irritable, eh?
who is comparing life histories ?
hoosier daddy, Lem said that Sarah Palin and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are EQUALLY hated, feared ....
that is absolute nonsense.
and Lem, when a colleague of Sarah Palin is killed, beheaded and a note is taped to his body threatening that she is next; and when the govt is paying millions per year in security for Sarah Palin because of multiple and persistent death threats, perhaps then we can compare the level of hatred and fear to that of Ms Ali.
Until then, please please come back to reality.
Lies, all lies I tell you! Nobody has ever threatened Ms. Ali's life, NEVER I tell you! It's all ZIONAZI lies against poor innocent Muslims!!!!
I choose not to respond to danielle initially because i wasn't sure where she was coming from.
I thought she was offended I had compared an American, Palin to a foreigner.
Oh, I get it Quaestor -- you were not seeking to understand what I was saying, you just wanted to peddle some talking points and throw some meat to your fellow right-wing-nuts.
how original !
Imagine an English-speaking nation populated by fundamentalist Christians. In theory, the country promotes the doctrine of "Love Thy Neighbor."
In practice, the nation's courts apply a narrow reading of Old Testament law to all matters. Public schools teach extended, literal lessons focused on Scriptural passages. The government banishes persons who present an interpretive meaning of the Bible. The state-controlled media label individuals who disagree with the fundamentalist viewpoint as "The Fallen." Jurors, drawn from the church deaconate, sentence gay individuals to stonings. Women wear surgically implanted chastity belts until their fathers order them into prearranged marriages. Citizens must exclaim, "Praise the Lord!" at every public and private gathering. Courts routinely order the hanging of persons who ridicule the government by calling its leaders "Bible Thumpers."
The country has a loosely articulated plan to occupy neighboring countries and to impose its law worldwide.
Were such a country to exist, would the American intelligentsia converge to defend fundamentalist Christianity?
hoosier daddy, Lem said that Sarah Palin and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are EQUALLY hated, feared ....
that is absolute nonsense.
You're right danniele. Like you said, unlike Muslims, there are not large swaths of progressives seeking to murder Palin.
I stand corrected.
I understood what you wrote, danielle. It wasn't beyond my limited ken -- jejune, puerile, yes -- but not misunderstood.
I agree: liberals are superior to terrorists.
Ann, are you there ? i believe bagoh20 has just written a post that is worthy of your blog's banner. If you bannerize it, never again will liberals feel unwelcomed here !
Yes, the comparison of Palin to Ayaan Hirsi Ali is strained at best. Hordes of "progressives" aren't seeking Palin's blood. Yet those same non-blood-lusting "progressives" would happily dance on Palin's political grave, no?
BTW, I habitually put progressive within quotes because every self-described progressive I've encountered in this country was really a reactionary.
Maybe I was too liberal with the use of the word 'equally'.
Fidelius, maybe you should post your question on a 'social conservative' blog and see what sorts of answers you get.
I doubt anyone here has any interest in defending a north korean or saudi arabian misappropriation of the Bible.
Liberals unwelcome here? Perish the thought. I'd have no one to torment...
@danielle Quraishi defended Muslim law by drawing a parallel between it and our Constitution.
So, yes, if Sarah Palin had not quit as Alaska's governor, and if she had disappeared to be with her Aregentine lover and come back and done some weird confessional press conference -- yes, i think most progressives/liberals would be quite happy.
and yes, that is *far* different from the original claim that was made .... and really shouldn't even be compared to the vile threats made against Ms Ali ...(not to beat a dead horse, but I find the original comparison so disgusting).
Fidelius wrote:
Quraishi defended Muslim law by drawing a parallel between it and our Constitution.
Only if an angled line and a straight line could ever be considered parallel. Really, Fidelius, you give Prof. Quraishi much too much credit. Quraishi's spiel was one of the most embarrassing concatenation of words I've ever heard issue from academic lips, and I've heard some lulus in my time, believe me. It was like dirty fingernails scraped over the blackboard of my brain.
Fidelius: I'd be interested in hearing more of her point. She seemed to be suggesting that Ms Ali was cherry picking the clearly offensive parts of Sharia Law for her argument against Islam -- similar to the argument you were making actually.
I'm not sure if her point holds water, but I'd need to hear more of it to tell for sure.
I do doubt that the Prof's point holds water though -- because if there was some rejection of these more offensive ideas within Islam, I would expect to hear more debate .... which we clearly dont (see Iran)... which was the jist of Ms Ali's talk it seemed.
Quaestor, well put.
Alex said...
Tell me her shit don't stink!
Her shit don't stink. Happy, now. But yours stinks to high heaven. It is toxic, rancid, retching, putrid, and is infested with worms.
wv:voider= A Brooklyn lawyer picking a jury.
So, yes, if Sarah Palin had not quit as Alaska's governor, and if she had disappeared to be with her Aregentine lover and come back and done some weird confessional press conference -- yes, i think most progressives/liberals would be quite happy
Wow! I'm having a WTF moment here... allow me to recover my wits...
Danielle, I heartily apologise. I thought you were a Liberal with some ammunition. I now realize you're totally unarmed...
danielle, Quraishi's attempt to portray Hirsi Ali's account as "cherry picking" knits a thread of moral relativism between the two systems.
That is the posture with which I disagree. I would challenge any academic to assume this posture were the academic to evaluate fundamentalist Christians.
So, yes, if Sarah Palin had not quit as Alaska's governor, and if she had disappeared to be with her Aregentine lover and come back and done some weird confessional press conference...
Hey, you had your guy. Remember a woman name Mary Jo Kopechne? Hmmmmmm?
Mary Jo Kopechne was a teacher and a civil rights worker. She was killed by that piece of sub human garbage named Teddy Kennedy. He never even got a traffic ticket. He never repented. He is consderred a "lion" of the Senate.
Well, honey, where i come from, lions are predators and that is all Kennedy and his whole family are. Predators. Deadly predators.
well Quaestor, if you want to get a rise out of me as you seem to hope, you're going to have to do better than some pathetic rhetorical slights.
please bring your A game.
the only thing i've seen so far from you are pathetic little quips, name calling, and unsubstantiated self-aggrandizing statements.
you're going to need real arguments if you want to engage with me.
The Feminist Majority organization and the V-Day organization both advocate against underage and forced marriage, female genital mutilation, rape culture in African genocides, against a wide range of horrors visited on women in Afghanistan and Pakistan, for women jailed in Iran, Egypt and other Islamic countries. Feminists have advocated for immigration reforms to allow asylum for women fleeing violence and FGM. It's a myth that Western feminists are not involved in supporting Islamic feminists and in responding to repression of women in Islamic and tribal cultures outside of the West.
Danielle,
So far you haven't written anything worth more than a smug denigration. Sorry.
Fidelius -- it seemed to me that she was trying to say that you cant just an entire political system by areas of modern day controversy. I thought her analogy was that if you will bring down Islam by these sorts of arguments, then by referring to the abortion debate & gay marriage that you'd also need to question the foundation of American political theory.
Is that not the point she was trying to make ?
Quaestor: the very fact that you choose to engage in 'smug denigration' speaks volumes.
this is the last response you will get from me. i hope you and the people who choose to respond to you enjoy themselves !
cheers !
Beth,
Perhaps you should read more of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's essays. One reason she is now in this country and not in the Netherlands was that nation's failure to offer her protection from fatwas issued by Dutch imams. Holland's feminists did little or nothing to advocate in her defense.
Danielle, while I agree with your point about the comparison being inaccurate, the things said about Palin on liberal sites are no better than what is said about Ali by her haters. Of course Ali's haters would actually do violence which is all the difference in the world, but does not excuse the way most conservative women like, Palin, or Michele Malkin are attacked in the most debased, misogynistic and violent way possible in the English language.
I don't see any where near that level in the reverse. I think your outrage is a little myopic. I know you read liberal blogs and have seen what I'm talking about. We're you as outraged by that?
This is almost identical to Ali's main point at the end of the Q & A, where she pointed out the ridiculous juxtaposition of Muslims upset about US policy when Muslim are the ones primarily killing and abusing Muslims.
Wow - I've rarely seen a good important topic descend into stupidity so quickly:
bagoh20,
American blacks are from West Africa and the product of a lot of mixing - and not just with white people (some people will use any excuse to condemn white folks - there were white slaves, too, and black slave owners - funny how no one talks about them,...)
Murtha died. Yea, he served with honor, but he was also a dickhead when he got back. My take on his death: shrug.
Quaestor,
"Since when in this country has taking offense from another's political views been shameful?"
In the liberal NewAge mind, being offended is some kind of crime. They've always been more offended by my political views (I'm black!) and hatred for NewAge, than all the murders their beliefs have caused and, especially, the ones brought to my life. See, I'm a black conservative, so I, somehow, deserved to have my life wrecked by their beliefs. Whether I, or anyone else, is offended by them - and what they do - is irrelevant: they're narcissists and they just don't care.
Alex is crazy. He and Danielle should hook up - if Danielle ain't already Jeremy's girl.
Liberals were constantly talking about killing George W. Bush (and, like so much more they did, thinking conservatives will forget) so, to me, the comparison to terrorists isn't wholly without merit:
These light-weight-thinking fools will do anything to get their way once the tantrum starts.
Thank you, Crack. You made the point directly that I was aiming at obliquely.
Holland's feminists did little or nothing to advocate in her defense.
I'm not saying that isn't so; I'm pointing out that Ali is not the only measure of feminist responses to Islamic fundamentalism.
When I wrote "liberals are superior to terrorists", I was not referring to their propensity to victimhood.
To sum up. A apostate Moslem woman who holds controversial views about her former religion comes to UW Madison to give a speech.
UW Madison faculty and some students are concerned that she may shatter their pre-conceived notions of Islam.
The gently denigrate her before her speech. Althouse posts a video of the speech. The leftist heads explode.
Even former Moslems are not allowed to criticize Islam or a woman's lack of rights under Islam.
I see that freedom of thought, expression, religion- or lack of- and speech are dying in America.
bagoh20: i honestly do think that if the same brutal attacks that are plotted against Ms Ali were proposed and plotted against Sarah Palin -- I do think people on the left would be outraged because, while things sometimes get heated, there is a civility and a patriotism that we share as American.
I think this is/was also the case with Candidate Obama. Even though people really disliked him on the right -- I think most Americans were outraged by the nutbaskets who were making racist death threats.
if you disagree, then lets just agree to disagree. I dont think its worth debating what we see when we look at the left since you wont change what I see, and I wont change what you see. I really cant be moved from this belief based on the liberals and progressives that I interact with / read etc.
Even former Moslems are not allowed to criticize Islam or a woman's lack of rights under Islam
I'm confused. Isn't there a video of a former Moslem criticizing Islam and women's lack of rights under Islam, right here? Didn't that woman just do that in a speech, a speech she's delivered at other places around the country?
all those women who vote democratic -- and who would really prefer the govt stay out what goes on in their wombs -- are so crazy !
Lucky for you Obamacare probably won't pass.
The health czars and bureaucrats will want to mess with what what goes on, in, and around your body.
When they foot the bill, they get to pick the pill.
@Beth Yes, and with a price on her head.
"The V-Day organization"?
Are those the geniuses who tell women to look at their pee-pees in a mirror and declare they love them as themselves? Who tell women to repeatedly yell "vagina" at the top of their lungs in a Large Group Awareness Training (AKA "cult") setting? Who promote NewAge blather? (While, of course, they deny anything they do is cultish or NewAge,...)
Beth, honey, you've really got to get some new friends:
I worry about you,...
Beth wrote:
I'm not saying that isn't so; I'm pointing out that Ali is not the only measure of feminist responses to Islamic fundamentalism.
And what I am saying is they (American feminists) must do a hell of a lot more to have much 'cred regarding this topic. Instead of getting all exercised over a 30-second spot on the Super Bowl telecast, they should trying picketing the Saudi embassy, or how about a "burn the burka" march on downtown Dearborn?
Beth, as you know Bella point was not that there was no criticism of Islam allowed here, it's a rhetorical device. The point is that when it happens that treatment of women in Islam is attacked, it's much more championed by the right. For some unexplained reason it's the left who wants to argue the point, or excuse it, or deflect with blame on American policy which Islam did not require to come to it's enlightened view of the fairer sex. You just wonder who's side is the left on: women's or radical Islam's?
"...repeatedly yell "vagina" at the top of their lungs in a Large Group..."
That's got to be a spiritual experience. Like seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time.
I do think people on the left would be outraged because, while things sometimes get heated, there is a civility and a patriotism that we share as American.
I seem to remember that civility and patriotism. Hoping Dick Cheney dies, hoping Clarence Thomas wife feeds him high cholesterol foods so he has a heart attack and dies, hoping Jesse Helms gets aids through a blood transfusion and dies.
All said by women. All of them on the left. Very civil. Very patriotic.
Of course my favorite patriotic saying was the NPR whore who proudly proclaimed that every woman in America should break out the presidential knee pads and blow Bill Clinton for saving the right to choose. I guess that gives a whole new meaning rally round the flag pole.
Tell us some more about the left's civility and patriotism.
But back to Hirsi Ali & Palin (how did that happen again?)
I do think people on the left would be outraged because, while things sometimes get heated, there is a civility and a patriotism that we share as American.
Most of the leftist responses to Letterman's slur on Paln's daughter was a shrug.
The Bush assasination movie got a shrug.
The stamps with the gun pointed at Bush's head got a shrug.
The Palin-hung-in-effigy was a (shrug) Halloween joke.
I think a lot of people shrugged in Germany and Poland once upon a time too.
One needs to be mindful of things like that lest we end up down the road where we should not go.
danielle wrote:
I think most Americans were outraged by the nutbaskets who were making racist death threats
There weren't too many Liberals outraged by assassination fantasies penned by the likes of Tim Robbins, were there? No. They forked over heaps of cash to see that "provocative" exercise in political theatre.
Really, give the Left's track record of mannerly discourse over the Bush years, it's quite delicious to hear their yelps about "civility."
And there was that "comedienne" Saragh whatzhername who hoped Palin could come to New York and get gang raped by the brothers.
The sophisticated D.C. audience didn't shrug.
They laughed uproariously.
Peter, guess what: there will always be crazy people that do and say crazy things. if you want to play this game of judging a group of people by the fringe, then please be prepared to keep on spinning your wheels and being unhappy (or maybe you enjoy seeing that sort of behavior ? ... or maybe you just see the fringe of the other party and use that to justify your views.)
... if you'd like to get back to the real discussion, i'm happy to engage.
wow ! the right wing nuts come out at night !
i think that's my cue to leave ... besides, its past my bed time !
bon nuit !
enjoy the pointless ruminating on how awful you perceive liberals to be... i guess I shouldnt really be surprised though, eh ? dodging the real questions is something that your representatives in congress do so well, so I guess i'm not surprised that you've picked up on it as well.
You just wonder who's side is the left on: women's or radical Islam's?
bagoh02, I don't really wonder that, no. I think a lot of leftists in general are probably too concerned with political correctness in over-delineating between Islam and radical/fundamentalism Islam, and sensitive to critiques of swooping in to fix Islamic cultures without deferring to women and feminists in those cultures. But there's more to the picture than that, and I have no real doubt that most feminists care about women's well-being.
And I also wonder how much the right really cares about women when it's not a matter of leveraging Islam for political points. The right didn't care much about Islamic women's rights until after 9-11, and then suddenly Afghan women's plight became important. I'm glad for this, though, even while I think it's stupid to spend time wrestling for political points and more important to actually stop systematic rape in Congo, and female genital mutilation and forced marriages of 10-year-olds.
I recognized the rhetorical device - it struck me as a bit hystrionic.
If you want to play this game of judging a group of people by the fringe
Fringe? Fringe, did you say? The left most egregious offenders are some of its most prominent spokesmen.
This is exactly the point of Ali's entire speech: We ignore our own communities worst behavior, by deflecting on the other's failings. He point continued that it does not justify your side's behavior and it is important to judge relative degrees of debauchery. In her case, that Islam was deflecting on the U.S. to avoid facing it's own demons.
I suggest that the American political left is doing just that lately with it's constant talk of civility only lately, post Bush, while it accuses it's enemies of racism, potential violence, radicalism and stupidity. That is the point.
Instead of getting all exercised over a 30-second spot on the Super Bowl telecast, they should trying picketing the Saudi embassy, or how about a "burn the burka" march on downtown Dearborn?
So feminists have to do one instead of the other? False dilemma. I can oppose CBS' decision to run that particular issues ad after turning down liberally oriented issues ads (the UCC pro-gay ad, for example) and do other stuff, too. Whether I picket or burn a burka, or donate money to a hospital in Congo that repairs girls and women brutally damaged in sexual assaults is my choice, of course.
Um, Danielle,
The people that said those things were not the crazies, they were well known, some in so called journalism. They are people taken seriously by the left.
Then there are those great patriots and civil men- Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann. Al Franken is a Senator. He is neither civil nor patriotic. Rahm Emanuel is civil? Joe Biden is civil? The list goes on and on of so called respectable people of the left.
You people have no civility and no patriotism. Oh, and just so you know. When I was young and stupid I was a lefty.
My first year on the police department changed all that. I saw what the left did. It created slavery and a plantation system called welfare and housing projects. Real civil and real patriotic. They called it the war on poverty. Black cops called it the war on poor people.
Grow up.
I'm just scanning and writing now:
"I dont think its worth debating what we see when we look at the left since you wont change what I see, and I wont change what you see."
That is so immature. "You wont change what I see, and I wont change what you see"? Then why fucking talk? Are you going to tell me there are no objective truths the two of you can't use as a starting point to nail down what's what? Maybe something math based? (Math is math) Really? Are you that fucking boneheaded? Because the truth is, at some point, you're going to hit a topic where somebody's got to give and, if you're both honestly following what we know or can know, one of you has got to give - and should be more-than-willing to do so because, as I see it, that's learning and learning's why we're here.
"I really cant be moved from this belief based on the liberals and progressives that I interact with / read etc."
Don't make me laugh. This is America, you can move. You're talking about a fucking belief:
be⋅lief [bi-leef] –noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
Now, I say we should entirely abandon this way of thinking - it does us no good that I can see - but, if you merely want to change your beliefs, you can do that, too.
And you can do it while looking at those "liberals and progressives that I interact with / read etc." All it takes is a little cock to the head and a close examination of what they're saying - not what you believe they're saying, taking into account what nice people they all are - but the actual words and ideas coming out of their mouths. But if your "friends" are like you, with this "I dont think its worth debating" attitude, you'll never know what each other really thinks to begin with.
It's all just your belief.
Good night Danielle. Tell Jeremy we all said hello.
They just don't do it. You may imply that they care about it, but there is is little evidence. A commercial was taped to counter the Super Bowl one. They didn't raise the money to air it, but they didn't even think to make one about Islamic degradation of women. In fact I bet if the idea came up it would get shot down internally. They do make spots about abuse of women in the US. Hardly an equal evil if you really care about women.
I don't think they care much. It's virtually invisible if they do.
(Not exactly an accurate use of the term false dilemma since I don't imply that one choice excludes the other, but that's not important)
The "Focus on the Family" ad was a mere irritant, a talking point in a debate the feminists would rather not have (it's settled law, dontcha know?) Yet the energy, the blogs, the talk show donnybrooks all concentrate there. All the while the really egregious affronts to women's rights are mostly unchallenged by the Left
In all fairness, the right doesn't fight this fight either publicly much. As evil as Islamic abuse of women is, it not PC to openly bitch about it. There is something disgusting about that.
In all fairness, the right doesn't fight this fight either publicly much. As evil as Islamic abuse of women is, it not PC to openly bitch about it. There is something disgusting about that.
Unfortunately, that is all too true. I think it's hypocrisy on the one hand and cowardice (tinged with laziness) on the other.
For the Liberals that didn't listen because somehow you are sure it's not your problem-
Did you miss the part about all the death threats against her?
Have you missed all the history of that over the past years?
Have you missed the story about the two girls in Texas that she was talking about?
And really did you sleep through the part where she was talking about how the Dutch film producer that made her screenplay-Submission into a movie was -
1.Shot
2. Beheaded
3. Had a note left pinned to his chest threatening her.
Then have you ever heard of Rushdie?
Did you listen to the opening of the speech, the point that Chip makes-"apologize for security". The event was held up an hour for that reason-or how about the part that she references why she has body guards.
but they didn't even think to make one about Islamic degradation of women.
Huh, I must have missed the Tebow ad about that.
You may imply that they care about it, but there is is little evidence.
I doubt you've bothered to look for it.
Bullshit - when you're fighting battles, you've got to pick and choose. We're not liberals, wrenching our garments over every horror the world over, and if we are then we need to stop it:
No other country wishes us any favors and the horrible stuff that happens in this country comes first.
Understand that shit and we'll be fine.
Y'all forget that Palin's church was firebombed.
Not sure who did it but I am sure it wasn't the Tea Partiers. So even in terms of the straw man that was constructed the comparison may or may not be as strained as it would seem to be at first glance.
The thing to remember about leftists is that most of what they espouse involves the use of force against their neighbors. Government is force and they want to grow it and wield it.
In that sense the alliance they have with the Islamists is a natural one. They are both faith based, top-down, patriarchal hierarchies who at this point in history have made common cause against a shared enemy. I could prove this many ways but in the end the left's excuse making for our terrorist enemies and silence about their abuses against women speaks far more eloquently and dispositively than anything I could squeeze in this text box.
Beth, the blogosphere and radio and TV is all out there. The people who bitch about it are people like Hannity, and Beck and Limbaugh. You know them; the enemy. I don't see much of that from Maddow, Olbermann or Chris Mathews; it just doesn't send a thrill. I don'
t have to look to see the disparity.
Sorry, I was addressing bagoh and Quaestor's comment that conservatives don't fight this battle very well:
Dudes, it's not, strictly speaking, our fight. Keeping ourselves alive - and getting strong again - is. If liberals focused on that,...
bagoh20, we're back to my earlier comment. I don't have much faith that Beck, Limbaugh et al give a crap about women under Islam. It's just a political football for them. Pundits don't do crap for anyone. There's more going on out there in the world than talking heads and radio blowhards.
I disagree Crack, American life is heaven compared to places where innocent young women are being hung for getting raped. We have problems here, but that's no excuse to ignore much worse elsewhere. If we aren't living well enough to care now, we never will.
Liberals. When we're not wrenching our garments in horror, we're kicking down our neighbors' doors and setting up a sharia court in their kitchen.
And no one is allowed to speak out against it!
Beth - just enjoy the Saints SB victory and stop gloating.
Beth, I don't care what their motivation is. If they speak out and that puts pressure toward improvement, then good. If you care about the victims and not politics, the motivations don't matter.
In fact, if they get rich selling that message, better yet. That's a sure way for it to go viral.
If you were one of those women in prison awaiting execution for being raped or just accused of adultery, do you think you would approve of Hannity's exposure of your dilemma or Olberman ignoring of it. Whose show would you be hoping gets better ratings. And would you care if he got wealthy doing it?
Let me spell it out for you: a large swath of progressives/liberals are NOT seeking to assassinate Sarah Palin.
Well, John Kerry did wish for Sarah Palin to disappear last year, and I think we've all seen enough mob movies to know what that means.
I once attended a lecture where noted feminist Germaine Greer defended the holding down of eight year old girls in Somalia and mutilating their genitals. She said it made them "sex-positive." After that I wasn't interested in what most big-name feminists had to say about women's rights.
WV: mogisms: the wit and wisdom of cats?
Okay, bagoh20. And if you were one of those homosexuals in Uganda, wondering if you'll be executed under the new Family approved proposal to make being gay a death penalty offense, you're probably wondering minute by minute when Limbaugh is going to expose your dilemma.
Or not.
The women you refer don't know Hannity from Olbermann or care about U.S. television show ratings or how much a talking head puts in the bank.
Beth, you are deflecting. I understand why, but I don't agree it's helpful. Of course the women don't know; it's not them who need to be exposed. Their governments are the targets, and the left is not helping because they can't cooperate with anything the right fights for. It's stupid and immoral.
Bagoh20 - I'm not sure if I'm being clear. I don't care if Hannity makes big bucks or what issues he or Maddow or whoever takes on. I don't think their yammering matters much to anyone other than their own listeners. Any real work on issues of women's health, safety, legal status, etc. is done by all sorts of people involved in government, NGOs, feminist and religious organizations, legal associations, what have you. The talking heads are just window dressing. They don't matter. That's my take.
bagoh20, you seem to be convinced that only the right is involved in anything worthwhile, and if the left isn't "cooperating" then they're not doing anything. That makes no sense to me. I'm not deflecting - I'm saying you're missing a bigger picture. Just because something's not talked about on Hannity doesn't mean it isn't real.
Bedtime - I've enjoyed the exchange but can't continue. Sleep well, all.
We're talking about a huge audience listening, probably 100 million people who just happen to be the richest and most powerful in the world. I think it matters a lot what they hear and what they are convinced to care about. Proof is the Haiti aid over $500 million so far. That's where the energy, money, and power to make changes comes from. It matters. If we were all on the same side as on Haiti, about it, things would change, those governments would change, those lives would change.
That's my take. Good night, friend. hope we talk again.
If you were one of those women in prison awaiting execution for being raped or just accused of adultery, do you think you would approve of Hannity's exposure of your dilemma or Olberman ignoring of it.
Olberman is ignoring it because Obama ignores it. And Obama is ignoring it for the same reason Bush ignored it -- because there are hundreds of millions of barbaric people in the world who will become violently hostile if we question their religious faith.
Regarding Leftists and killing Palin, I would agree that they don't want to kill her themselves, they want the Government to do it for them. They are cowards in person, for the most part, and only offer violence when part of a mob or when they have Government agents to do their dirty work for them.
And we are in a religious war, whether you realize it or not, one that has been going on for well over 1000 years. Ask the Egyption Copts (if you can find one) or Lebanese Christians who they think the combatants are.
Yes, Ms. Ali, as a woman denouncing Islam does need to worry about radicals and physical violence. Life ending violence should be one of her concerns, and this is in keeping with the traditions of Islam. They don't play. However, it isn't every Muslim willing to do that violence, but it only takes a few.
The vast majority of people on the progressive left are willing to let others do their hatchet job on Palin, and they stand by and laugh. I hope nothing more than the vile slurs come her way. (And I wish they would stop.) But if something did happen, I would imagine many progressives saying something like "well that's too bad, couldn't have happened to a nicer person" and smiling. Tolerating that behavior, rewarding that behavior, think of Letterman and his vile digs against Palin and her children, makes those tolerating that behavior accomplices.
When a large group tolerates a violent minority persecuting opposition, the large group needs to accept some responsibility.
I don't see many in Islam calling out those few radicals intent on violence and killing.
Ms Ali has apparently wrecked the marriage of Niall Ferguson. This fits into no known scenarios of struggle and uplift.
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