Althouse: Working the combat-stress-without-the-combat theme.

November 7, 2009

Working the combat-stress-without-the-combat theme.

The NYT loves its theory of the Fort Hood attack.

215 comments:

1 – 200 of 215 Newer› Newest»

Freeman Hunt said...: I don't know that we should even be talking about the news. So many horrible stories. One of us might snap!; 11/7/09, 11:04 AM
John said...: As a veteran this is one of the prime reason I hate liberals. Liberals love to slander soldiers. Soldiers are always derranged damaged victims of society. They would rather slander a veterans than admit that a muslim pop a nut and killed a bunch of people in the name of God.; 11/7/09, 11:04 AM
SteveR said...: All the better to blame Bush.; 11/7/09, 11:10 AM
lucid said...: What is remarkable is how self-righteous they can be about their own dim obtuseness. They talk only to people who agree with them and are now operating in a no-free-speech echo chamber. They don't realize how ridiculous they sound to anyone outside thier bubble.

Liberalism is now officially for the intellectually lazy.; 11/7/09, 11:10 AM
Jason (the commenter) said...: Freeman Hunt: I don't know that we should even be talking about the news. So many horrible stories. One of us might snap!

Now I wish I had a subscription to the New York Times so I could use this as an excuse for canceling.; 11/7/09, 11:10 AM
traditionalguy said...: Every one should express their opinion, I guess, but the obvious reaction to this collection of Psychobabble is that the givers of these opinions are either of very low intelligence or are a collection of professional liars that usually escape being caught in their smooth lies because of people's respect for good counterfeits. That sums up most NYT articles anyway.; 11/7/09, 11:13 AM
The Drill SGT said...: John said...
As a veteran this is one of the prime reason I hate liberals. Liberals love to slander soldiers. Soldiers are always derranged damaged victims of society.

Praise be, brother, sing it out :)

those quacks are all REMFs, or as they are termed now, FOBBITs. I didn't see any reference in their bio's about actually experiencing the horrors that they counseled folks about

let's give trainee a CIB, a purple heart, for the trauma they might someday suffer.

When I came back I was called a Baby Killer. In classes, folks wondered out loud about my possible aggression. It never changes. The betas want to find a way to denigrate our service.; 11/7/09, 11:14 AM
rhhardin said...: Some mention of Islam as organized crime would clarify motives a little.; 11/7/09, 11:15 AM
Jason (the commenter) said...: Guns don't kill people, it's people who read The New York Times and go crazy who kill people.

Cancel your subscription today. Do it for the children!; 11/7/09, 11:16 AM
Big Mike said...: Okay, I remember REMF from my days as a Vietnam-era draftee, but what's a FOBBIT? I can guess the first letter, but the other five are obscure.

Looks like YAFA -- yet another acronym -- to me.; 11/7/09, 11:17 AM
Charlie Martin said...: I'm truly starting to hate this story. Take away the Arabic name, and you've got someone who was a loner, quiet, kept to himself in general, gave many warnings that violence was on his mind, couldn't apparently form or continue relationships very successfully, and finally acted out against random members of a group against which he felt he had a grievance.

This is the story of the usual lone shooter.

No doubt his religion gave him some sense of justification, but that doesn't explain things very well when he's so similar to lone gunmen who are Christians or agnostic or Church of England.

And this infectious PTSD theory is really pretty silly. As John says, it has no data behind it, just the good old Vietnam crazy veteran myth.

But everyone wants to make it a tstimony to their avorite overarching theory, from combat stress to the notion that Islam is bad and no Moslem can be trusted.

Which more or less guarantees that the one thing we won't be able to do is understand what really happened.; 11/7/09, 11:21 AM
daubiere said...: "Fobbit is a derogatory term used by coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan to describe base working personnel at a Forward Operating Base (FOB). It derives from the mixing of the acronym FOB, with the name Hobbit from J. R. R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" universe. The implication of the term is that the individual is scared to leave the relative safety of the FOB, by way of analogy to Hobbits that had no inclination to leave the Shire and face danger.

The term can be used to describe Department of Defense personnel or Department of Defense contracted employees. The word is generally used by combat oriented troops that perform combat, combat support, or combat logistical operations outside of the FOB."; 11/7/09, 11:23 AM
The Drill SGT said...: he got it right.

short version, Mike?

FOBBIT = REMF

got it?; 11/7/09, 11:25 AM
Anonymous said...: This Fort Hood thing is more evidence of the psychological violence the draft causes to those that are forced to serve in the military.....

...(just a minute, my wife is telling me something....)

Hum. Never mind.

(Gosh I miss the 60s when you could really rage against the industrial-military complex in self-congratulatory righteousness.); 11/7/09, 11:26 AM
bearbee said...: I don't know that we should even be talking about the news. So many horrible stories. One of us might snap!

Is that what is wrong with journalists?

Does the NYT provide 'combat' counseling?

MTSPSU; 11/7/09, 11:26 AM
Greg Hlatky said...: Dopey letter of the day, where else but the New York Times

To the Editor:

The only thing truly surprising about the tragic rampage at Fort Hood (front page, Nov. 6) is that we seem to be as surprised by it as we are horrified.

Those making the crucial decision about whether to stay and fight or quit the field of battle might ponder the awful, universal truth that the ravages of war extend far beyond that field to wound hundreds of thousands who will never hold a gun or toss a grenade.

[Name mercifully omitted]
Cambridge, Mass. [where else?], Nov. 6, 2009; 11/7/09, 11:32 AM
Shanna said...: I don't buy this second PTSD bs for a second. This guy either snapped because of his religion or because he's one of those crazy people who snap, or both. Probably a little of both, but his choice of targets was pretty clearly directed by his interpretation of his religion. I love how the NYTimes is just ignoring the elephant in the room. Has a MH professional snapped in such a fashion before due to "secondary PTSD"? I highly doubt it.; 11/7/09, 11:32 AM
Big Mike said...: @daubiere, thanks. I guess I was wrong about the 'F' after all.

@Drill Sgt, then your equation is wrong, because during Vietnam a REMF wasn't necessarily even in theater. It included people in the five-sided funny house who ordered a higher sortie rate for the Air Farce than they had bombs to support so aircraft took off with only a single bomb. It's the type of general who ordered hills taken in the face of well dug-in troops, or the marines to hold Khe Sahn, only to abandon them after the enemy was beaten off. That's an REMF.; 11/7/09, 11:32 AM
Unknown said...: oh c'mon folks ... so much hyperbolic language here ...

yes, nytimes does want to shed light on the effects of PTSD not only on soldiers on the front line (as evidenced by older stories), but also the effect on caregivers. what's so wrong with that ?

i wouldnt call that their 'theory' though. clearly this guy had many issues and was pretty conflicted ... his views on the war yet his required service, his mom's death ... and not that any of this justifies what he did, because it absolutely does not.

... i think if anything, their coverage is aimed at trying to present that complexity so that readers dont degenerate into fear of 'those (muslim) people that are so unlike us' ...

and ann, you said earlier that you wanted to know where the military had missed the warning signs. Is this not an area worthy of investigation ?; 11/7/09, 11:38 AM
Anonymous said...: I get it! He had pre-post-traumatic-stress syndrome; 11/7/09, 11:39 AM
The Drill SGT said...: daubiere said...
The word is generally used by combat oriented troops that perform combat, combat support, or combat logistical operations outside of the FOB."

The Army has a defined pecking order of alpha-ness (I avoid using the term testosterone to avoid a women in light infantry discussion). Also described as the pointy end of the spear story.

anyway, they guys way out on the tip are the SOF guys, behind them come the infantry and the armor and the combat engineers, etc, etc until you get to Shrinks.

The point is that whereever you are on that spear, be it the very tip or farther back, you consider yourself along with everybody in front of you as a warrior and all those clowns behind you are REMFs or FOBBITs :)

It is a good natured argument, at least abomg the warriors. The real FOBBITs don't like being called FOBBITs, but the guys who go outside the wire, don't give a damn what the FOBBITs think. They are..., after all, FOBBITs :); 11/7/09, 11:40 AM
Cedarford said...: PTSD by proxy.

Now, I hate the whole cult of victimhood stuff. Especially when REMFs or Fobbits show up as the professional blubbering victims the media reverentially showcases as examples of the "horrors of war".

However, I will conceed the the NY TImes, though not for the agenda reasons they write (cant be Islam, nosiree! Has to be hate speech directed agaist the guy or PTSD)...has a point.
Among the most recognized and believed at highest risk of being PTSD sufferers are medical practicioners in frequent contact receiving and treating war casualties. Day in and day out.

It does not stretch the imagination that mental health care practitioners have the same reaction. Indeed, it is documented back to WWI, when doctors treating shell shock victims began to note they were developing sympathetic physical and psychological manifestations similar to those of the patients.

I think it is more likely that a socially inept man turned to a harder and more pure Islam for meaning..and that harder, purer form of Islam is the sort that has caused violence the world over.

(Unrelated, a read the story of a noble Lady in the UK, a gifted sculptor...who spent years after WWI "giving our men their faces back". She volunteered, along with other artists, to make facial and hand prothesis for some of the most grotesquely disfigured ex-soldiers. And allow them to not hide behind a mask and move about normally in crowd without attracting attention as a freak or unfortunate. It was unpleasant, and they never got used to it...but the reward was high.

Now that is true good work); 11/7/09, 11:41 AM
daubiere said...: "
yes, nytimes does want to shed light on the effects of PTSD not only on soldiers on the front line (as evidenced by older stories), but also the effect on caregivers. what's so wrong with that ?"

because we know what the motive of the new york times actually is: to denigrate, degrade and weaken the military at any opportunity.; 11/7/09, 11:44 AM
Strick said...: "I get it! He had pre-post-traumatic-stress syndrome"

Good, but I like second-had PTSD better.; 11/7/09, 11:54 AM
Michael said...: PTSD is simply PRE traumatic stress. I have it myself.; 11/7/09, 11:59 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Freeman that was hilarious. You really cracked me up but I felt bad laughing about this tragedy.; 11/7/09, 12:04 PM
Unknown said...: daubiere , how does shedding light on the human cost of war denigrate and/or weaken the military ?; 11/7/09, 12:06 PM
William said...: There was something within the culture of the Catholic Church that attracted and sheltered pedophiles among the clergy. That was one problem. The greater problem, however, was that the Church denied such a problem even existed. Something similar seems to be going on within the Muslim community. Islam is producing an unusual number of homicidal madmen. That's one problem. The larger problem, however, is the refusal of the community to even acknowledge that this phenomenon is going on......I don't think there is anything in the teachings of the Koran that justifies wanton killings anymore than that there is anything in the dogma of the Church to justify pedophilia. Nonetheless, it happened.....This crime had nothing to do with post traumatic stress and everything to do with a neurotic masking his disorders with religious fervor. The fact that this happens with increasing frequency among Muslims should be a cause of concern among Muslims. It should even be a higher cause of concern than West Bank settlements.; 11/7/09, 12:17 PM
Dustin said...: The Times was the purveyor of that story about the woman soldier who was raped in Iraq by hillbilly GIS... even though she had never been there.

The NYT also was a big backer of the debunked suicide story, where an increase of 4 suicides represented a hug percentage increase, which obviously proved that the rate's really low to begin with.

The Times HATES the troops. They've shown int over and over again by taking every liberty they can against them, not checking any story that bashes them, and denying them any real credit whenever they really ought to.

The troops do have a stressful job, and one of the problems is that they have to walk on eggshells in an inherently dishonest PC climate. Troops that needed therapy were being sent to this Nidal monster, all because of democrat inspired EO Complaints against anyone who points out the obvious.

Let's get to the root causes of stress... our military is safer than ever before in many ways, and much less safe in others. Fragging is pretty rare, so let's get to the really unusual aspect here. PC culture, pushed by the NYTs, KILLED our soldiers.; 11/7/09, 12:24 PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: Horse-shit.

The only way to spin this without bringing radical ideology into it is that Hassan was a mass murderer who happened to be Muslim.

I think that is a valid argument. Dude was a loser, and picked up the Muslim faith as an excuse for his own failures.

I don't think that holds up, in light of the number of highly educated Muslims who become terrorists. But it's worth a shot.

PTSD without the TS makes no sense.

wv lister

Apparently Blogger is a Red Dwarf fan.; 11/7/09, 12:27 PM
ddh said...: Years ago, some comic appearing on the Tonight Show quipped that he was a combat veteran because he had just seen A Bridge Too Far. NYT's story is just as serious.; 11/7/09, 12:30 PM
Lincolntf said...: Oh boy. We are truly living in an age of deadly ignorance. Hold a sign at a Tea Party or ask your elected Representative a pointed question and you'll immediately be branded as "an extremist" by the President, our Congressional leaders and the media.
But if you gun down 40+ unarmed soldiers while screaming "God is Great" in Arabic, you're probably just stressed out by your job (and not getting needed counseling, of course...).
The fools and cowards pushing the imaginary PTSD motive are beneath contempt.; 11/7/09, 12:36 PM
Wince said...: What I think this guy feared most about his deployment to Afghanistan, but couldn't admit either to himself or others, was actually confronting the day-to-day reality of the misery and horror perpetrated in the name of the religion he espouses.

Here, you can comfortably self-satisfy yourself in the blame-America meme.; 11/7/09, 12:44 PM
The Drill SGT said...: Let's talk seriously about PTSD for a bit.

who gets it: In my experience, it's line dogs. the grunts for the most part, though in Iraq, I expect the convoy guys would pick it up as well.

What does it look like: I'm not an expert, but I had a small case when I came home from Vietnam I guess. In my experience it manifests as a certain level of anxiety about behavior that would be risky in combat. examples:

- overreaction to loud noises (e.g incoming...)
- anxiety is close quarters or crowds
- false identification of IED threats and avoidance of same while driving
- snapping awake at night at noises, wondering who is pulling security in your apartment... not being able to fall asleep for days, till you crash.

all of my experiences with PSTD were defensive. None of those things caused me to attack others. all of the reactions were of the instinctive type, often while asleep or otherwise impaired. All went away upon waking or consideration of the real local environment.

In short, PSTD is survival skills gone wild.

the NYT and these so called experts are full of shit. You can't catch PTSD from somebody, or from hearing ugly stories. You have to live the threat environment. If PSTD was a disease, then all the Physical Therapists Walter Reed and the burn ward nurses at Brook would be in padded cells by now.; 11/7/09, 12:49 PM
kentuckyliz said...: He violated the Hippocratic Oath.

First, do no harm.

Shitty doctor.; 11/7/09, 12:50 PM
Simon Kenton said...: It's a big-fleas-have-little-fleas-upon-'em thing. An h1n1 of the mind. Derivatives of the psyche. You get PTSD by being shot at. I get it by talking to you. My wife gets it by talking to me. Her students get it by talking to her. One of her students goes nuts, and it's the Army's fault, which in turn contracted it from Rumsfeld, who got it from Bush.; 11/7/09, 1:07 PM
Anonymous said...: As a veteran this is one of the prime reason I hate liberals. Liberals love to slander soldiers. Soldiers are always derranged damaged victims of society.

Obama fell right into this rhetoric, calling the attack "a tragedy" and citing the need to "care for" the troops and "provide" for their "safety and security."

In fact, I tend to blame Obama for the attack. Obama has helped to legitimate the world view of Islamic terrorists like Hasan by promulgating the inflammatory myth of an anti-democratic, imperialistic, militaristic American government, guilty of mass murder in the Muslim world on a scale that dwarfs that of Hitler and Stalin and by feebly condemning Islamic radicals.*

*Does this sound familiar? I took it, mutatis mutandis, right from a April 30, 1995 Michael Lind Washington Post column blaming mainstream conservatives for the Oklahoma City bombing.; 11/7/09, 1:11 PM
MnMark said...: I think this observation by Lawrence Auster, in which he considers how Obama (who has the same general worldview as the NYT) would think about this massacre, pretty much nails it:

In short, Muslim terrorism exists because the West is insufficiently progressive. If all people's needs were truly taken care of, if all people, especially Muslims, were lifted out of poverty, ignorance, helplessness and despair, which are the root causes of terrorism, then terrorism would end. How else can a dyed-in-the-wool liberal like Obama see it? The evil of terrorism can't possibly be something voluntarily chosen by the Muslims themselves; such a notion would remove the onus on conservative whites who truly are the source of all evil in the world, as Obama learned at the feet of Jeremiah Wright for 20 years. To say that Muslims, on their own initiative and choice, and not pushed by some external force, believe in doing these bad things, would cancel the liberal and black belief that all evil comes from whites. Obama's entire world view is grounded in the conviction of white guilt and nonwhite innocence. Therefore, whatever root cause he finds, we can reasonably predict that the root cause will not be that Muslims believe in a god who commands them to wage holy war against non-Muslims, and that Nidal Hasan was putting this holy war into practice.; 11/7/09, 1:17 PM
Alex said...: What is remarkable is how self-righteous they can be about their own dim obtuseness. They talk only to people who agree with them and are now operating in a no-free-speech echo chamber. They don't realize how ridiculous they sound to anyone outside thier bubble.

Liberalism is now officially for the intellectually lazy.

To be fair, plenty of right-wingers exist in their own echo chamber as well. F.e, Hotair.com, Free Republic, Red State, etc... Lefties do not have a monopoly on bubble-itis.; 11/7/09, 1:20 PM
Anonymous said...: As far as I know, non-military shrinks don't spend much of their time dealing with happy people either. Shouldn't we be scared of them too?; 11/7/09, 1:21 PM
Unknown said...: so drill SGT, let me get this straight ....

you want to reason from your own personal experience with PTSD to causes and effects of PTSD on all sufferers ? really ? And you want to discount the finding of clinicians, therapist, researchers, and otherwise trained professionals that see hundreds of cases of PTSD in favor of your own single subject study ?

that's a fascinating research method. good luck with that.; 11/7/09, 1:21 PM
Alex said...: BTW, when a tea partier finally snaps and shoots up a bunch of people after being called an "extremist" a few thousand times too many, will the liberal MSM rush to his defense? Really, I'd like to know about that hypothetical.; 11/7/09, 1:23 PM
Alex said...: danielle - so you who have NEVER served in the military know MORE about PTSD then drill Sgt who has. Good luck with that!; 11/7/09, 1:24 PM
Lincolntf said...: As to how much Obama himself is to blame for the act, it's impossible to measure. Probably not at all.
But the craven slanders of our military by Democrats like him and Murtha and Kerry certainly led to the "climate of hatred" towards American servicemen that we have today.
Barry and Co. spent years condemning US soldiers, which provided a moral framework in which Hasan's attack could be seen as permissible and noble. The reaction/cover-up by the Leftist press proves that Hasan was at least partly right to assume that he'd have the support of a large Leftist/pro-Al-Qaeda contingent.; 11/7/09, 1:30 PM
Unknown said...: Alex -- i'm not saying I know more than the drill sergent; but what i am saying is that I trust the assessments of trained professionals who have seen many cases (and educated by people who have seen many cases) over the opinions of a single person who wants to wildly extrapolate from his lone experience to what everyone with PTSD experiences.; 11/7/09, 1:32 PM
Kirby Olson said...: He had apparently said on many occasions things along the lines of what OBL said about wanting to take out any and every American.

Thank heavens for Sergeant KIMBERLY MUNLEY!

When the chain of command is no longer functional beginning with the POTUS, thank God we still have sergeants like KIMBERLY MUNLEY.

We need to get someone like her into the White House.; 11/7/09, 1:34 PM
Alex said...: danielle - and what I'm saying it's veeeeeeeeeery interesting that you are seizing upon the PTSD meme when Hasan never served in combat. Veeeeeery interesting.; 11/7/09, 1:37 PM
Tyrone Slothrop said...: At the risk of being redundant I can only repeat what I said on the thread yesterday. If Hasan had been a Christian, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Hindu, an atheist or a pagan the warning signs he expressed by the truckload would have been noted and addressed. He was surrounded by military psychiatrists for goodness sake. BECAUSE HE IS A MUSLIM these signs were ignored. If you think there is some other explanation you are in a deeply deluded state.; 11/7/09, 1:43 PM
Anonymous said...: You kids wouldn't be laughing if you'd been with us in the old 516th Vicarious Assault Regiment back in the ETO. There were no 50-minute hours in the Cassino sector, I can tell you... only day after day crouched down in the mud in your mind's eye, pinned down in a deadly hail of reminiscences about being pinned down in a deadly hail of Kraut machine-gun fire.

I never even saw the counter-transference that got me... one minute I'm in some shell-shocked GI's war story, the next I'm coming to in the field hospital. You really felt bad for the Old Man when he came to visit, having to go from couch to couch knowing he'd put each one of us there. To this day I don't know if I would have made it if they hadn't sent me back to the evac hospital in Naples, trying to patch up the shrinks who'd snapped trying to patch up the other shrinks who'd snapped trying to patch up the dogfaces.; 11/7/09, 1:44 PM
KCFleming said...: OK, danielle, I am a trained professional who has seen many cases of PTSD, and the NYTimes is full of shit and Drill SGT is dead on correct.

In fact, his shorthand of "PSTD is survival skills gone wild" is one of the best brief descriptions I have ever heard.

I have used a similar description for patients, but will steal his because it's better.; 11/7/09, 1:47 PM
Unknown said...: no, Alex, perhaps you should read more carefully.

the post which begins this discussion references a NYT discussion piece which provokes discussion on the human costs of war, which the article says includes the effects on psychatrists treating soldiers w/ PTSD. Many people here very boldly would like to claim that this effect is somehow not real, or is somehow aimed at denigrating the military. The point I'm trying to make is that (1) I dont doubt that this effect on psychiatrists does indeed happen (please see Cedarford's comments below if you want, or if you dont trust the NYT's quoted professionals), and (2) that discounting in based on one's own isolated experience w/ PTSD is rather presumptuous.; 11/7/09, 1:48 PM
Unknown said...: what sort of training do you have, pogo ?; 11/7/09, 1:49 PM
Anonymous said...: By the way, you people should watch what you say to me-- I've seen the first 30 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. Any little thing could set me off.; 11/7/09, 1:51 PM
Tyrone Slothrop said...: William said:

I don't think there is anything in the teachings of the Koran that justifies wanton killings anymore than that there is anything in the dogma of the Church to justify pedophilia

I get your larger point, but there is absolutely nothing in Catholic teaching that countenances, much less encourages or justifies pedophilia. On the other hand, the Koran contains unambiguous dictates to believers to lie to, subjugate, tax, discriminate against, torture and kill unbelievers. Face it.; 11/7/09, 1:55 PM
Andrea said...: Danielle's buttheaded stupidity is giving me PTSD.; 11/7/09, 1:55 PM
KCFleming said...: M.D.
Over 20% of my practice over the past 12 years has involved the medical and psychiatric effects of acute and chronic PTSD.

The most treating MDs ever get is annoyed, bored, burned out, or depressed. They don't get PTSD-by-proxy. That's just bullshit.; 11/7/09, 1:57 PM
Unknown said...: wow, andrea, resulting to personal attacks adds a lot of substance to the conversation ....

.... that is, when you're 12.

horray for you !; 11/7/09, 1:58 PM
Tyrone Slothrop said...: Paul Zrimsek

I'm Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off.; 11/7/09, 1:59 PM
Meade said...: Cedarford said...
I think it is more likely that a socially inept man turned to a harder and more pure Islam for meaning..and that harder, purer form of Islam is the sort that has caused violence the world over.

Would the true religion of peace please stand up.; 11/7/09, 2:02 PM
Unknown said...: what is 'PTSD-by-proxy' ?

pogo, did you skim the NYT article ? None of the people quoted there say that he has 'PTSD-by-proxy' ... i think that term was coined in one of the posts here. The articles do talk about the negative effects on the caregivers.; 11/7/09, 2:06 PM
Andrea said...: Well danielle, you're the one telling people 1) who have had PTSD from being in combat, and 2) who have treated people who have been in combat, that they don't know what they are talking about but that some talking heads and "experts" in the New York Times are right on the money.

I'll end with this fact: Hasan hadn't been anywhere. He hadn't seen any combat. All he had to do was listen to some sad stories and prescribe treatment. That's a pretty sweet job even out here in civilian land. So he was a-scared of being sent to Iraq, boo-hoo. He was surrounded by mere kids who were being deployed who showed a hell of a lot more backbone than he did. Some of them are dead now because of him. I don't think his apologists deserve politeness. "Horray! (sic)" for me indeed.; 11/7/09, 2:12 PM
hombre said...: Dear Ann Althouse:

My friends overseas have been relating their horrible experiences with government-regulated health care to me. At the same time, I have been anticipating death panels, waiting lists for surgeries, the loss of medicare benefits, etc., under Obama/Pelosicare.

I am beginning to feel very stressed out and very hostile towards Democrats in general and N. Pelosi in particular. I feel the onset of SPTSD -- Sympathetic PreTraumatic Stress Disorder and a srong impulse to protect myself.

I can't tell my shrink, because he may be infected by my sharing. What can I do?

Sincerely,
Agitated in Austin; 11/7/09, 2:14 PM
Andrea said...: I knew it! Pogo told Danielle what his credentials are so she switched from questioning his expertise to questioning his ability to read! Well here we go, from the very first person's statement in the NYT article:

"My research on secondary traumatic stress — defined as the consequent stress and emotions caused by helping a traumatized and suffering person — has found that the negative effects can be similar to those of primary exposure."

(Bolds mine.) Yeah, no one is talking about "PTSD-by-proxy" -- only the very first psychiatrist in the piece!; 11/7/09, 2:17 PM
Titus said...: Do what I have done fellow republicans.

Put down the NY Times and pick up the Washington Times.

Much heartache and headache will be eliminated.

Thank you.; 11/7/09, 2:19 PM
Titus said...: I am very happy Iowa got beat by Northwestern.; 11/7/09, 2:21 PM
Jason said...: As someone who is both an infantry combat veteran and who worked as a clinical psych care provider, I find the Times collection of pieces and the entire theory of PTSD by proxy to be stupid and insulting.

Danielle, you should know better than to buy into this crapola.; 11/7/09, 2:22 PM
Unknown said...: no, actually andrea -- i questioned how careful Alex had read what I wrote, because he seemed to be claiming I said things that I did not.

I was actually asking for pogo's informed opinion because, unlike you, i'm not claiming to have some particular insight into what can be understood about Hasan's disgusting behavior. i'm not that presumptuous.

the question i was asking Pogo (that you misunderstood) was if his understanding of the effects on psychiatrists was similar to what the NYTs 'experts' had quoted, and if the confusion was with the language 'PTSD-by-proxy'. I'm sure everyone here realizes that there is a difference between PTSD and what are described in the NYTs article as negative effects on clinicians from treating severely traumatized patients (they dont use the term PTSD for effects on clinicians).

and in case you are also confused about my own view here -- until there is more information about this guy, I think its prudent to consider several feasible factors that contributed to his sheer madness ... i'm of the view point that people are complex, and I that be being open to that complexity, we can better prevent this sort of thing from happening again.; 11/7/09, 2:34 PM
Beau said...: All he had to do was listen to some sad stories and prescribe treatment.

Yep, that's it. PTSD is just someone's sad story.

Nor does PTSD relate only to military service. Anyone undergoing a traumatic and life threatening experience can suffer from it.

The NY Times article seems to miss the 'traumatic' aspect of the disorder.; 11/7/09, 2:39 PM
Lisa said...: For those of you decrying the possibility that this has anything to do with Islam, please explain the following:

1. He was shouting Allah Akbar during the shooting.

2. He has a history of glorifying suicide bombers.

3. He made many posts on the Internet that were of concern about Islam and the war on terror.

Of course, the same folks denying this had anything to do with his religion seem to believe that there is no difference between Islam and Christianity.

Just out of curiosity, don't Christians normally shun Christian groups that treat women as property? do Christian texts support honor killing? do Christian churches preach killing those who leave Christianity? Do Christian churches preach killing the infidels and Jews?

Maybe Islam really is different.

Just because it is a religion does not mean it is worthy of respect.; 11/7/09, 2:56 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Bernie Goldberg said the lamestream media had excused the crazy bastard doctor by reporting he contracted "second-hand PTSD"!; 11/7/09, 3:04 PM
Unknown said...: Lisa --

1. There are fringe 'Christian groups' that resort to terrorism, claiming that 'God is Great; -- see the conflict in Northern Ireland

2. The vast majority of Muslims do not advocate or support suicide bombing and would absolutely maintain that it is not a tenant of their faith (so his glorification of suicide bombing is not indicative of or caused by Islam).

3. Believing that the war on terror was a war on Islam was wrong; but many people do think that there are under currents of hatred of Islam in America, or at least among some people in America ... and given what you've written here, I have my questions about your views.

...and there are massive difference between Christianity and Islam -- the most important being of course that Muslim's dont believe that Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit, and Christians dont believe in the authority of Mohammed ... I'd say that's a pretty big difference.

and to your other points:
Just out of curiosity, don't Christians normally shun Christian groups that treat women as property?
-- true of most christian groups of the 21st century; but certainly that wasnt true really until the 20th century. And many would still wonder about Mormons ... and also worry about Ephesians 5 and other parts of the NT

do Christian texts support honor killing?
--- Most Christians certainly dont know, but they had some trouble in Northern Ireland; and again, to the point earlier, the vast majority of Muslims dont either.

do Christian churches preach killing those who leave Christianity?
-- no, and neither do the vast majority of Muslims.

Do Christian churches preach killing the infidels and Jews? -- no and neither do the vast majority of Muslims.

---- i think it would be more helpful to learn more about Islam, and then you can decide if you want to respect it (and I think you most likely will).; 11/7/09, 3:18 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Danielle:
To want to study a subject, it helps if the subject is something you like.

Most Americans have already learned enough about Islam to know they don't care for Islam. That stops most of us from wanting to learn more about Islam.

Got it?; 11/7/09, 3:25 PM
Alex said...: Danielle - OMG are you for real? All you've got are some "troubles" in Northern Ireland? Muslims are 1.2 billion worldwide and commit so many massacres! There is NO comparison between Christian atrocities of the present(almost nothing to speak of) and Muslim(too many to count). You are just totally congnitivly dissonant.; 11/7/09, 3:25 PM
Dark Eden said...: The Narrative is King, and the Narrative says the military industrial complex is bad and brown skinned people are virtuous victims of the evil white man.

Its kind of amazing the lengths the Palace Guard Media will go to, in order to protect this narrative. They will completely ignore the obvious, as in this case, and desperately find some alternate crazy theory.

On the other hand, one single data point is enough to convict every right winger everywhere of dangerous extremism.

I hope that sane people of all political persuasions are noticing this.; 11/7/09, 3:27 PM
Roger J. said...: Given the horror of combat---and I suspect there are only a few posters who have seen combat--it is amazing to me that we as humans are remarkably resilient. Most people, but clearly not all, can handle stress through various coping mechanisms.

There are those that cannot for whatever reason, and those few--and I stress FEW--are worthy of medical intervention.

Consider the horrors of the American civil war with a million plus casualties which constituted a large portion of the population--I think it can be demostrated that the vast majority of those veterans of that vicious combat returned to functioning lives.

With the advent of the DSM series, I believe we have increasingly adopted some variation of victimhood that takes as its starting position that ALL men cannot deal with terrible stress and tend to become psychotic when exposed to stress. True for a small percentage, I think. We are talking the 2d and 3d standard deviation here. And I further submit that this group would be at risk for psychological impairment, combat notwithstanding. But not true for most. Most men (and women) do deal with it in socially acceptable ways. To believe otherwise is to denigrate our capacity for adapting.; 11/7/09, 3:27 PM
Andrea said...: {d]anielle twists and turns and equivocates and lies, and claims we misread her and she didn't write what she wrote, and now I think I understand why:

"---- i think it would be more helpful to learn more about Islam, and then you can decide if you want to respect it (and I think you most likely will)."

(Bolds added by me.) She's been operating under ulterior motives. But they just can't help it -- the mask always slips. From now on danielle's comments are killfiled as far as I am concerned.; 11/7/09, 3:28 PM
Beau said...: There have been enough atrocities committed by believers over the past thousand years of both religions to indicate crackpots are everywhere and ready to blame their behavior on their interpretation of their brand of religious teaching.; 11/7/09, 3:35 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Commenter TMink has counseled many victims of abuse. Who knows how many traumatic stories he's heard?! And to think, a man like that was trusted as a valued commenter on this very site! God, help us!; 11/7/09, 3:37 PM
Dark Eden said...: RE: Danielle and Islam. Actually I have become very curious about Islam and try to learn all I can about it, in a sort of 'know your enemy' kind of way.

Its fascinating and the more I learn the more I'm troubled.

I'm troubled by learning about the Global Caliphate.

I'm troubled when I learn that the world is divide up between Dar al Islam (The House of Submission, that part of the world governed by Sharia Law) and Dar al Harb (The House of War, that part of the world NOT governed by Sharia Law).

I'm troubled when I learn about Taqiyyah, a concept meaning its acceptable to lie to infidels if it advances Islam.

I'm troubled by all the honor killings I've heard about.

I'm troubled about the advocacy of murdering gays.

I'm troubled by a lot of things I hear about Islam. But I am hearted by the fact that there ARE moderate Muslims. There are people who are fighting against this. Some say that they don't speak up enough... and I say cut them some slack. We are gutless cowards about standing up to Islamic Radicals and we live thousands of miles away from their bases of power. Imagine if your neighbors on both sides were glassy eyed martyrs-in-waiting. You'd be a little careful with your words too.

I think Danielle's heart is in the right place but I think you need to face the fact that something is terribly wrong with your religion and it is going to fall to people like you to end these horrors.

You seem to be more interested in fighting people who badmouth radical Islam than in fighting people who murder gays and girls who are seen in public alone. This troubles me.; 11/7/09, 3:39 PM
Beau said...: She's been operating under ulterior motives. But they just can't help it -- the mask always slips. From now on danielle's comments are killfiled as far as I am concerned.

Don't know how you connect danielle a woman's name to the site of Daniel Pipes but you probably should killfile her comments given your emotional response to her posts.; 11/7/09, 3:41 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I think we all have a right to know who might snap next. Have you ever watched Full Metal Jacket? How about Saving Private Ryan? The Dirty Dozen? Other graphic war films? Confess!; 11/7/09, 3:44 PM
Roger J. said...: Freeman--the difficulty is we simply dont know who will snap next--thats the human condition.; 11/7/09, 3:47 PM
The Drill SGT said...: danielle said...
so drill SGT, let me get this straight ....(snip)

And you want to discount the finding of clinicians, therapist, researchers, and otherwise trained professionals that see hundreds of cases of PTSD in favor of your own single subject study ?

I looked up the CV's of the 4 "researchers".

Not 1 appears ever to have been employed by DoD. My favorite was

4. Helen Benedict - Whatever drove Major Hasan to shoot 13 people to death and wound 28 more at Fort Hood yesterday is still unknown, but his violence draws attention to the bitter toll taken on U.S. troops this country’s seemingly endless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

"Why Soldiers Rape" - Helen Benedict on Military Sexual Assault
""For Women Warriors, Deep Wounds, Little Care,""- Helen Benedict; 11/7/09, 3:47 PM
Dark Eden said...: >>> Freeman--the difficulty is we simply dont know who will snap next--thats the human condition. <<<

You might check the Muslim guy who just gave away his furniture and has said he admires suicide bombers as Warriors of Islam.

Call it a crazy hunch.; 11/7/09, 3:54 PM
Lisa said...: Danielle,

I am not uniformed about Islam and no, I find nothing in it worthy or respect. Its tenant that non-Muslims are to be killed or at best oppressed into the status of Dhimmi is not worthy of respect. Its tenant that women are not people and should be punished by sharia if raped is not worthy of respect. Its tendency of marrying off girls as young as 8 to old men is not respectable. Its insistence that a woman's body is there to tempt men into evil and must be covered, controlled through hijab, birqas and niqabs to turn them into 'ghosts' or interchangeable objects is not worthy of respect. Do I really need continue?

Islam is a religion of barbarism, of violence and of hate, not peace.

It should NOT be respected.

Despite your continued reference to the 'Troubles', there is NOTHING in modern Christianity that compares.; 11/7/09, 3:55 PM
Unknown said...: Dark Eden, I'm under no illusions about the oppressive and violent nature of radical Islam. I think it is terrible when any group justifies oppression and violence in the name of religion. And I hope that the US and NATO and all other countries with the resources can route out these crazy terrorizing, power hungry people.

But, I also know for sure that these fringe groups give Islam a bad name ... and its an unbelievably counter productive and worse, very offensive to real Muslims, stance to label Muslim/Islam as bad.

I get that people are afraid, and with good reason; but i think that plays right into the hands of the terrorists that just seek that sort of control over people, and really for the sake of power, and under the guise of 'loving God'... I look forward to the day when those crazies are done away with.; 11/7/09, 3:56 PM
Lisa said...: Danielle,

They are not a fringe group of Muslims. In much of the world, this is Islam as it is taught and preached. The same branch of Islam which informed the 9/11 bombers is being spread through America, funded by Saudi Arabia, throughout private Islamic K-12 schools.

I really don't think you know what you are talking about.; 11/7/09, 4:02 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: You might check the Muslim guy who just gave away his furniture and has said he admires suicide bombers as Warriors of Islam.

No, no. We just learned in the NYT that that's all just a bunch of silliness. We need to check people who have heard about bad things.

When a guy shouts, "God is great!" over and over while killing people, what he really means is, "I heard the worst thing the other day!"; 11/7/09, 4:03 PM
Unknown said...: Lisa,

is there anything within the past 600 years of Christianity that you believe compares ? (Islam began around 600 years after Jesus ).

... lets see here -- England, Spain, France were Christian -- they had some pretty disgusting ways of treating the poor, oh, and people in the lands they conquered ... Lets just stick to the Americas since we all know the history here; the native americans -- what happened to them ? Slaves from Africa -- we did unthinkable things to those people.

What do you believe to be the role of Industrialization and modernization in what you see as modern Christianity, and do you think this could have similar effects if wide spread in the Muslim world ?; 11/7/09, 4:03 PM
Dark Eden said...: I totally agree with that Danielle. I'm a Pagan, and one of the things the Bible says is, "Do not suffer a witch to live." Or something to that effect. I don't see any Christians lining up to burn me at the stake though.

So I definitely understand that even though some of this crazy stuff might be in the Koran, that doesn't necessarily mean that Muslims do those things.

However, right now in the world today there's a huge problem with those radical muslims. They are quite powerful and people like you seem loathe to act against them. You will decry them here on this board, but where it counts... I'm not seeing much action.

I project forward to how this War with Islam will end. Its been going on pretty much since Islam and Christiandom became aware of each other, even though Christiandom doesn't really exist anymore.

How will it end? Well, we could kill all the Muslims. Obviously, we aren't going to do that. We could submit and all become Dhimmi's or Muslims.

Some parts of Europe might actually try that one out but I know the good ole boys in Texas, the South and even parts of the blue states will die to the last man woman and child before doing that.

So what's the end game. And the end game is you. People like you are going to have to change Islam, so that the radical muslims have very little support. Radical Islam will always exist, just like you can dig up some crazy christian cults if you try hard enough. But people like you, who are not Radicals, who want a life of peace, are going to have to stand up to them.

You seem very good at standing up to us, but I don't see you standing up to them yet. Until that happens, we're going to be watchful and ready to scrap. You leave us no choice.; 11/7/09, 4:05 PM
The Scythian said...: danielle wrote:

"you want to reason from your own personal experience with PTSD to causes and effects of PTSD on all sufferers ? really ? And you want to discount the finding of clinicians, therapist, researchers, and otherwise trained professionals that see hundreds of cases of PTSD in favor of your own single subject study ?"

Pick up a copy of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and take a look at what the experts actually say about PTSD.

And, well, you'd find that it's pretty damn close to what the Drill SGT says PTSD looks and feels like.

Major Nidal Malik Hasan wasn't suffering from pre-PTSD or PTSD-by-proxy. He was a wannabe jihadi and the New York Times is full of shit. The paper is twisting the narrative to turn the murderer into the victim and the actual victims of his savagery into legitimate targets.

Yet, to defend this activity, you tell the Drill SGT, who is right about PTSD, that he doesn't know what he is talking about. Because you know better, because you listen to the "experts".

Unfortunately, the "experts" don't agree with you either. So you're not just trying to turn black into white, you're making shit up in order to do it.

I'll give you a challenge, Danielle:

You can look for one example, outside of fictions like First Blood, where a PTSD sufferer exploded into murderous rage on the scale of Major Hasan's rampage. For bonus points, check to see if the PTSD sufferer in question yelled praises to his god as he was murdering. If you can do that, you get a point.

Now, I'll look for examples where Muslim extremists on the scale of Major Hasan's rampage while yelling praises to their god as they were murdering people. If I can do that, I get a point.

Who do you think is going to get a point first? Who do you think is going to get ten points first? A hundred?

Yet, the New York Times wants to distort this narrative so that the former scenario (which doesn't exist outside of anti-war fictions) is more dangerous and realistic than the latter.

And you make shit up to support this.; 11/7/09, 4:05 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I still remember the shock on my professor's face in a class on Islam when he had me read a verse of the Qu'ran in the Saudi translation I had received from a Muslim proselytizer.

Some places push a harsher brand of Islam.; 11/7/09, 4:06 PM
Unknown said...: Lisa -- you are wrong.

There are millions of Muslims in America, and there have been for decades. By your theory, there should have been *many* suicide bombings over the years.

But that is not the case.

The fear you hold and the fear your spread is not a good thing for this country.; 11/7/09, 4:07 PM
Kirk Parker said...: danielle,

So you think The Troubles were about religion? Please tell me I missed your <sarcasm> tags somwhere.

Yes, yes, we all know that either side was identified with a particular sect, but in order for the conflict to be about religion, it would have to have been that case that, e.g. the IRA terrorists were killing people "in the name of the pope" or something like that. And that doesn't pass the laugh test...; 11/7/09, 4:10 PM
Andrea said...: "Don't know how you connect danielle a woman's name to the site of Daniel Pipes but you probably should killfile her comments given your emotional response to her posts."

Um -- Beau? The connection I meant to make was "taqqiya." It was just a coincidence that Daniel Pipes' site came up second in my Bing.com search. The first was Wikipedia, whose Islamic entries I don't entirely trust. (For one thing, that site downplays the part of taqqiya where the believer is supposed to conceal his faith in order to subtly guide infidels towards Islam.) The fact that Danielle is the female version of Daniel is meaningless.; 11/7/09, 4:11 PM
Lisa said...: Dark Eden,

Wicca has nothing to do with the witch described in the Bible.; 11/7/09, 4:14 PM
Dark Eden said...: Dark Eden,

Wicca has nothing to do with the witch described in the Bible.
<<<

This might be true but that passage had plenty to do with plenty of Pagans of all kinds being killed back in the day.

PS I don't want to sidetrack the discussion here, my point was that Christianity once did bad things, used passages of the bible to justify them, and no longer does. I believe Islam has the ability to do the same... It just has a lot more um... how to put this ... um... crazy psychotic 'kill everyone who's not a Muslim' kind of passages to um... get over.; 11/7/09, 4:19 PM
Unknown said...: youngblood,

*sigh* ... i really wish people would read relevant posts before chiming in. i have not said that Hasan had PTSD; my only point in this area is that is important to consider all feasible factors for what may have contributed to his maddness. I dont doubt that there are effects for psychiatrics who have counseled PTSD patients.

and more broadly, my intent is to understand as many of the factors as possible that have played into this crazy man doing this disgusting act.

and on to your second point .. or should i say challenge (gosh, men): your reasoning here is that if someone says 'god is Great' is arabic while killing, then they are an Islamic Terrorist ? Well, for all the cases in the news in America, that is the case. But, I'm sure that if we could see news feeds in Pakistan where the Taliban has taken over parts of the non-radicalized areas, I bet we'd hear of stories of people resorting to the same tactic against the Taliban. I'd also bet that if we had access to Iraqi TV, we would have seen Sunni's do this against Shites (and vice versa), but would you label this in the same way ? ... or might you admit that there are other factors that play into resorting to this type of action/behavior ...

again, my objective is to understand so that we can prevent this from happening again. I guess some people posting here might say we need to 'get rid of the Muslims'; but judging by the fact that there are thousands of muslism in the military, and millions living in america -- that's clearly not the right answer.; 11/7/09, 4:27 PM
Lisa said...: Danielle,

Did I claim that Islam's violence led every Muslim to blow themselves up? No. I said Islam was not worthy of respect because of its treatment of women, because of its treatment of outsiders and because it advocates the use of violence.

In addition to 9/11, there have been over 600 people killed by Muslim terrorists on U.S. soil.

In fact, more people have been killed on U.S. soil alone by Muslim terrorists than ALL the deaths during the Troubles regardless of the source. Of course, that does not include Americans killed by Muslim terrorists outside of the U.S. or other Westerners.; 11/7/09, 4:28 PM
Andrea said...: In any case, the shootings are illuminating not so much of the fact that there are fanatical Muslim jihadists among us who are ready to kill, but of our special reaction to Muslims who go crazy and kill, which is different to our reaction to all other killers of other belief sets. When a Christian kills unarmed civilians (say, at an abortion clinic), for instance, there is much condemnation from the media of intolerant aspects of Christianity, real or perceived. But when a Muslim kills for ostensibly Muslim reasons, this same media downplays his religion (unintentionally insulting the killer in the process -- because at least he held his beliefs as sincerely as the anti-abortion killer) and bends over backwards to find some other reason -- any other reason -- to blame for his killing spree. And the call goes out to protect all other Muslims everywhere from the supposed wrath of non-Muslims, whereas the Christians are supposed to suck up any condemnation of their beliefs that they may suffer as a result of the Christian killer.

By the way, can we put to rest the canard that Muslim terrorist actions against unwitting civilians is anything like the Crusades? The Christian forces in the Crusades went openly about their business, bearing banners and wearing garments of war; there was no subterfuge or concealment of their purpose. And they met armies on the field of battle. They didn't sneak into a country and live among the populace as outwardly peaceful citizens while plotting to attack their neighbors. The Crusades weren't nice, but they were honest. But honesty isn't much prized anymore. (And on a side note, I must say that in general Muslim jihadist groups have been honest with us where they can afford to be -- it is we who discount their stated intentions to destroy us with "oh, they can't possibly mean that! It must be that they resent us for not reaching out to them more and being friendlier."; 11/7/09, 4:34 PM
jag said...: It's always the same headlines after these attacks:

"Muslims fear backlash"
"Islam not the problem, says ..."
"Young Muslims complain of bigotry"

I want to see a headline that reads:
"Non Muslims weary of terror attacks by Muslims"; 11/7/09, 4:35 PM
Unknown said...: Lisa, Islam does not advocate violence or ill treatment of outsiders either ... the radical islamic groups are a different story.

with regards to the treatment of women, again, I'd ask you to consider where Christianity was 600 years ago .. clearly Christianity still has some issues in this department as well (see the Catholic church where women cant be priests).

And while i question the accuracy of the numbers you quote, clearly the American deaths are terrible.

But how many innocent people have we killed ? Do you also know these numbers ? And not to say that this justifies what they have done to Americans; but lets not pretend that America has always been on the up and up with respect to the rights of others.; 11/7/09, 4:41 PM
Wince said...: I carry the scars of playing with little green army men as a child.

The Horror. The Horror.

wv-"butgac" = oh, did I forget to wipe?; 11/7/09, 4:45 PM
traditionalguy said...: Meade's question is still unanswered: when will the real religion of peace standup? It is true that the 99% of the muslims are currently giving the other 1% a bad name. Muslims are very intelligent folks from their education in the scriptures and are very righteous among themselves. Their problems arise from the Cult's teachings that they are all superior in every way to infidels and will one day have to enslave and/or kill them off. This leaves them very conflicted. On one hand they love the western culture and freedom and equal treatment that rewards their hard work that they enjoy here. But the fear of the misery from condemnation by Mosaic laws added to by Mohammed as a prophet of the last perfect revelation from a god of works who has no mercy (AND ESPECIALLY HAS NO SON)leaves them in a super stressed limbo as they enjoy acting western and sleeping with blonde western women and drinking liquor, all of which willfully deny the demands of Allah. It is facing that burden of guilt and fear of judgement that makes them do anything possible to somehow please Allah...surprise, surprise Allah just wants murders and suicides offered to him, the more the better.; 11/7/09, 4:47 PM
Unknown said...: Dark Eden, I have no solution for this problem which is very very complex, but I imagine that there are very smart people who have some ideas ....I also have no particular access to the problem given that I'm Christian and live in America (not so sure how people here came to believe I'm muslim ?) ... but I do think the solutions are more in the area of alleviating the poverty and oppression that produce hopelessness, since this can limit the number of recruits that the crazies (who will always exist) can convince to be on their side.

And, BTW, I dont think the conditions of poverty and opporession that can make people more susceptible to this is America's fault; but I do think its in our best interest (both as a country and for the sake of our common humanity) to do what we can to help change it.; 11/7/09, 4:52 PM
DinobotPrime said...: danielle

For clarification, what do you do for a living?? What is your expertise?? Just curious.

Anyway, as for your objective to understand to prevent it from happening again reflects your ignorance of what fundamentalist Islam is all about. The way you framed your objective, you have already unconsciously cast the killer as the victim and the victims and perhaps the United States as being guilty of pushing this major to kill his fellow soldiers.

You see Danielle, the problem of political correctness and those who adhere to that policy is that they will fully ignore the red flags until it was too late. The red flags started at Walter Reed, because of political correctness and multiculturalism, the military ignored the warning signs that this guy will be a danger to the troops.
The result- 10 men and two women are dead and 31 men and women were wounded.; 11/7/09, 5:00 PM
Kirk Parker said...: danielle,

"Islam does not advocate violence or ill treatment of outsiders either ... the radical islamic groups are a different story"

Who on earth are you to say what is or isn't true Islam?; 11/7/09, 5:02 PM
William said...: I watched (briefly) Keith Olbermann last night. He broke the important story that some bigot had ripped an "Allah is Love" bumpersticker off the doctor's car and, imagine the horror, had keyed said doctor's car, causing $1000 worth of damage. The subtext of Olbermann's reporting was that Muslims are discriminated against and that the important lesson Americans need to learn from this horrendous attack is to be more tolerant of Muslims......Perhaps Olbermann should learn the lessons of his fathers and grandfathers. The Germans in this country were strongly discriminated against during both WWI and WWII. They did not however double down on their nationalism and start wearing lederhosen everywhere. Instead they made a conscious and deliberate effort to become just like other Americans. Vonnegut has a piece somewhere where he writes about going hoome on leave and learning that his parents were suddenly no longer German. There was no Brahms on the victrola, no sauerbraten on Sunday. His family were determinedly American. So it went with the Germans in America.....The Muslims should take a page from the German experience. Ixnay on this jibab stuff. You took the trouble to move to this country. Maybe we have a few values that are worth absorbing, and you have a few values that are not worth proselytizing.; 11/7/09, 5:02 PM
traditionalguy said...: Danielle ...We had no problem with Islam until they got super wealthy off the petro dollars. Being poor tribal peasants only lets them pray to their god for a meaning to it all. Being super wealthy lets them weaponise and stategize their attacks upon us for the conquest of the Non-muslim parts of the planet to please their god with a job well done. They will not us anymore after they are poor again.; 11/7/09, 5:08 PM
The Scythian said...: danielle wrote:

"*sigh* ... i really wish people would read relevant posts before chiming in. i have not said that Hasan had PTSD;"

No, you didn't. You did however speak up indignantly in defense of the Times bullshit interpretation, so you own it to some degree. I am pointing out that the crap you are defending is idiotic...

"my only point in this area is that is important to consider all feasible factors for what may have contributed to his maddness."

...and not at all feasible.

"I dont doubt that there are effects for psychiatrics who have counseled PTSD patients. and more broadly, my intent is to understand as many of the factors as possible that have played into this crazy man doing this disgusting act.
"

Has any caregiver who deals with those suffering from PTSD picked up guns to murder people in an explosion of savage violence?

Can you find me one example of this happening? Can you find me one example of something even close to this happening?

"and on to your second point .. or should i say challenge (gosh, men): your reasoning here is that if someone says 'god is Great' is arabic while killing, then they are an Islamic Terrorist ?"

No. That is not my reasoning. That is, however, what I have personally seen. One of my jobs when I served in Iraq was to analyze insurgent propaganda, by which I mean beheading and execution videos that jihadis traded with each other as death porn and put out in the areas they were infiltrating as a warning to those who would oppose them.

My reasoning here is that those who yell, "Allahu Akbar" while murdering people are radical Muslims who see themselves as warriors for their god. They want non-Muslims and Muslims they perceive as less devout to associate that call with murderous violence.

"Well, for all the cases in the news in America, that is the case."

You're making the assumption that my knowledge about this subject comes from American TV news. It doesn't.

"But, I'm sure that if we could see news feeds in Pakistan where the Taliban has taken over parts of the non-radicalized areas, I bet we'd hear of stories of people resorting to the same tactic against the Taliban."

I'm not so sure. I'd have to see that in action to believe that what you're describing takes place.

You are setting yourself as a reasonable expert about something you know nothing about, just like you did above with the Drill SGT.

"I'd also bet that if we had access to Iraqi TV, we would have seen Sunni's do this against Shites (and vice versa), but would you label this in the same way ?"

Probably, yes. The Muslims who yell "Allahu Akbar" while murdering people do it for a reason, to strike fear and terror into the hearts of those who don't believe as they do. The implication is something like, "My god is great because he is giving me the power, authority, and strength to kill you."

"... or might you admit that there are other factors that play into resorting to this type of action/behavior ..."

I am quite certain there are other factors at play here. My suspicion is that, like most terrorists Major Hasan was a fucking nutjob. Radical Islam feeds on the narcissism, paranoia, and sociopathy of its adherents and turns these traits into a weapon against those who would oppose it.

However, acknowledging that this guy was a nutjob doesn't necessarily mean that this case fits the narrative that the Times is trying to pedal. And it doesn't get us any closer to recognizing that there is a dangerous and radical strain of Islam out there that we have to get a hell of a lot better at spotting and stamping out.; 11/7/09, 5:09 PM
The Scythian said...: "again, my objective is to understand so that we can prevent this from happening again."

No it's not. Let's face it: your objective is to build up your self worth by arguing with the people you perceive as cretins here in this thread. If your objective was understanding, you wouldn't constantly resort to making shit up and arguing in support of things that you make up.

That makes it harder to understand, not easier.

"I guess some people posting here might say we need to 'get rid of the Muslims'; but judging by the fact that there are thousands of muslism in the military, and millions living in america -- that's clearly not the right answer."

I didn't say it was and, for what it's worth, I have seen almost nobody in this thread suggesting anything like that.

What I have seen in this thread has been people objecting to the way that the Times is playing up the quasi-PTSD bullshit in an obvious attempt to avoid addressing the simple fact that a radical Muslim went on a murderous rampage and killed soldiers who were preparing to go war overseas.

He didn't explode into a rage and random and pick that processing center by accident. He picked it to reduce our military effectiveness by murdering soldiers who were going off to war to fight the radical Muslims that he saw as his compatriots.

Pretending that hearing the stories of soldiers with PTSD drove him to murder ignore this crucial fact.

That doesn't mean that we have to get rid of Muslims, but it does mean that we have to get rid of Muslims like him.

The political correctness displayed by the Times, where the spotlight must be forced away from his religion and his aims, does not help us to oppose our enemies. It makes it easier for our enemies to kill us.; 11/7/09, 5:10 PM
Unknown said...: Andrea,

did you just say that an anti-abortion person who kills honestly acts for their (Christian) religion ?

YIKES. I'm not sure what Bible you read, but the one I read says "Vengeance in mine, says the Lord." And not to mention the system of laws in place in this great country that rule out vigilantism.

I hope to God that you didn't really mean what you typed.

And w/ respect to teh media not hyping up the role of Hasan's religion, i think that's because (1) there are many factors involved and to blame it on Islam is wrong, and its to early to know about his particular understanding of Islam at this point in the investigation; and (2) doing so would stoke the fears of crazies who might do something crazy to innocent people.

and for the sake of addressing the inconsistency you (rightly) point out -- it would be interesting to hear the full background on an anti-abortion murderer. I'm sure that background would not be 'devout christian;' it would probably include some mental illness, or just plain out being a sociopath.

(and yes, i think the same is likely true of Hasan); 11/7/09, 5:11 PM
hombre said...: Danielle wrote: [W]ith regards to the treatment of women, again, I'd ask you to consider where Christianity was 600 years ago .. clearly Christianity still has some issues in this department as well (see the Catholic church where women cant be priests).

So is your point that 15th century Christianity condoned treating women as they are treated by 21st century Islam pursuant to Sharia Law? How so?

And you imply that excluding women from the Catholic priesthood is analogous to what 21 century Islamic practice under Sharia law? Excluding women from schools? Stoning them for adultery (or for being raped)?

You are evidently unfamiliar with history and religion. Do you know the meaning of the term "moral equivalence?"; 11/7/09, 5:13 PM
The Scythian said...: Kirk Parker wrote:

"Who on earth are you to say what is or isn't true Islam?"

Well, she told the Drill SGT that the experts disagree with him about PTSD and she'd listen to them... even though they don't actually disagree with him.

And she keeps shooting her mouth off about things that she literally doesn't have the first clue about.

Asserting that she knows better about 'authentic' Islam than anyone else is pretty much par for the course, isn't it?; 11/7/09, 5:22 PM
hombre said...: Youngblood wrote: And it doesn't get us any closer to recognizing that there is a dangerous and radical strain of Islam out there that we have to get a hell of a lot better at spotting and stamping out.

You forgot to add: "apparently without help from the 'moderate Muslims' about whom we are continually told."; 11/7/09, 5:23 PM
Unknown said...: no elHombre -- Lisa claimed that she didnt respect Islam because of its current treatment of women. I'm merely pointing out that Christianity has evolved on the roll/place of women, and that we should remind ourselves of this evolution before we judge too harshly; and we should also be honest about the fact that women do not have fully equal rights/treatment with men in all of Christianity. And its also not the case that all versions of Islam treat women as badly as they do in some of the widely publicized cases.; 11/7/09, 5:23 PM
The Drill SGT said...: 7/09 4:35 PM
danielle said...
Lisa, Islam does not advocate violence or ill treatment of outsiders either ... the radical islamic groups are a different story.

Classic Islam recognizes 2 divisions in the world.

Dar al-Islam, "House of Islam, where Sharia is practiced. The residents are either Muslim, Dhimmis, slaves or dead. Dhimmis are the second class citizens slightly above slaves, who must where marked clothes, pay extra taxes and be subordinate to Muslims in all things.

Dar al-Harb, The House of War. That area of the world that is not yet Dar al-Islam. It is the duty of all faithful Muslims to wage Jihad on the residents of Dar al-Harb, until such time as they submit to Allah.

You were saying what?; 11/7/09, 5:27 PM
The Drill SGT said...: wear not where; 11/7/09, 5:29 PM
Anonymous said...: I can't bear to read the article. Our suicidal PC-ness is just too much today.

The Bushes went to see the wounded and the bereaved today; Obama went...to Camp David.; 11/7/09, 5:32 PM
Anonymous said...: It has been fun watching Danielle slowly slip down the rope of arguments that apologists for Islamofascists use, finally winding up at referencing half millennia old atrocities. Happens every time with those folks. How about we talk about today, hmmm?

Danielle --

"clearly Christianity still has some issues in this department as well (see the Catholic church where women cant be priests)."

Yes, because that so morally equivilent to hacking off heads, pushing stone walls onto homosexuals, pounding sixteen year old girls to death with rocks because they dated or sentencing a young woman to death for converting.

"But, I'm sure that if we could see news feeds in Pakistan where the Taliban has taken over parts of the non-radicalized areas, I bet we'd hear of stories of people resorting to the same tactic against the Taliban."

Why yes, we would. They would be attacking an enemy with religious fervor. He saw us as religious enemies. That didn't quite work like you thought.; 11/7/09, 5:34 PM
Dark Eden said...: Danielle, you speak very authoritatively about what Islam is and isn't, which is why I thought you were talking about your own religion.

Since you do seem to feel so free to lecture all of us about what Islam is... can you share your background? How much do you know about it? Do you own a Koran? Have you read it?

I don't own one myself but I am going through the process of reading it online.

Have you researched different branches and dogmas within Islam and what their day to day beliefs are?

What do you base this seemingly rock solid assurance about the things you've been saying here?; 11/7/09, 5:35 PM
Alex said...: Notice something important. As soon as danielle started talking about abortion bombers, she became VERY animated and angry! But whenever she discusses innocent Muslims, she is in a very calm manner. I think we have a bigot, ladies and gentleman!; 11/7/09, 5:37 PM
hombre said...: danielle wrote: no elHombre -- Lisa claimed that she didnt respect Islam because of its current treatment of women. I'm merely pointing out that Christianity has evolved on the roll/place of women, and that we should remind ourselves of this evolution before we judge too harshly ....

I don't think that's what you said, but if so, you don't understand the meaning of the term "moral equivalence?"; 11/7/09, 5:41 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Freeman:

I swear I just bought The Two Disc Sepcial Edition of The Dirty Dozen about 45 minutes ago.

OMG I must be ready to snap! :); 11/7/09, 5:41 PM
The Scythian said...: elHombre wrote:

"You forgot to add: "apparently without help from the 'moderate Muslims' about whom we are continually told."

I "forgot" to add that because I don't believe it's the case. The second First Sergeant I served under in my unit was a Muslim. The soldier we had as our translator and subject-matter expert was a Muslim. Most of the civilian contractors we worked alongside as subject matter experts and interpreters were Muslims (although there were also a number of Christians of Egyptian and Jordanian descent), some American and some Iraqi, and some of them went upfront and into the shit with the doorkickers, proudly and competently. My Arabic teacher at the JFKSWCS was an American Muslim born in Iraq, and when she was sick, we were taught by an American Muslim born in Syria.

I don't think that every Muslim is a potential terrorist. I don't think that the moderate patriotic Muslim is a myth. To the extent that we have been successful in uprooting and dislodging Al-Qaeda in Iraq from that nation, it was been with the aid of Muslims who oppose radical Islam.; 11/7/09, 5:44 PM
Anonymous said...: Dark Eden --

"Danielle, you speak very authoritatively... can you share your background?"

Let us all start holding our breaths now.; 11/7/09, 5:46 PM
Alex said...: Sorry, I just don't buy the idea of moderate Muslims. Those so-called moderate Muslims probably don't bow down 5 times a day to Mecca.; 11/7/09, 5:46 PM
DinobotPrime said...: Danielle's problem is basically this, she is so blinded by her moral and intellectual superiority that she is willfully bending facts and invoking moral relativism in order to persuade herself that there is something fundamentally wrong with Islam .

Danielle
Learn to speak Arabic from Assyrians and you are brave enough. Go a mosque and not just any mosque, attend the mosque which preaches strict Islam in Arabic and attend the English version or what many anti-terrorist experts call the sanitized version. It was done by an American female, in fact she recorded both the arabic and english version of the sermon . let's just say, it raised a lot of eyebrows.; 11/7/09, 5:48 PM
Unknown said...: sure. i'm christian (which is why I cant believe that someone could say that murdering a doctor who does abortions is justified by christianity).

i have a degree in theology. i know a bit about islam, and i do have several muslim friends who i have questioned quite a bit on these issues.

also, my intent isnt to lecture. i just get very annoyed when i hear people stereotyping other groups, based largely on fear. i dont think its fair to judge such a large community of people, and based on the actions of people on the fringe.

and with regards to aspects of of brands of Islam that people dont like, I agree that, for instance, the treatment of women is awful in a lot of cases; but (1) I'd say we live in a glass house, and (2) I'd also say a lot of it is intertwined with politics, and to give it time to evolve ... the way things have evolved in Christendom.; 11/7/09, 5:50 PM
Alex said...: Will - what's the point? Asking Danielle to have a truly open mind as to the full evil of Islam is like casting pearls before swine. She already has her narrative which is "Muslims are gooooooooooood, Christians baaaaaaaaaaad. America baaaaaaaaaaaad. Arabs goooooooooooood". and so on.; 11/7/09, 5:50 PM
Alex said...: danielle - yeah we have NOTHING to fear from Muslims in America. Fuck you, Neville Chamberlain.; 11/7/09, 5:50 PM
KCFleming said...: "i dont think its fair to judge such a large community of people, and based on the actions of people on the fringe."

Yeah, well, if Muslims can go a single year without blowing shit up or shooting a bunch of civilians, conspiring to, buying and shipping weapons to do it, or getting arrested for planning to, or proclaim their intent to do it, well, then maybe I'll reconsider the idea that Islam in practice is all kinds of fucked up.; 11/7/09, 6:01 PM
Anonymous said...: danielle --

"i have a degree in theology. i know a bit about islam, and i do have several muslim friends who i have questioned quite a bit on these issues."

Then why are you unaware of directives in the Koran?

"also, my intent isnt to lecture."

Then cease.

"i dont think its fair to judge such a large community of people, and based on the actions of people on the fringe."

And, we (but a few) aren't. That's a straw argument on your part and one used extensively by the apologists. Pretending that the bulk of people believe as the fringe do. Apply the same logic you do to the Muslims to the rest of us.

We (I for certain) condemn any and all murderers; Irish, Christian and Atheist. It's just that I don't see the atrocities committed and sentenced by court and Imam being done by the rest of the world. You've been asked, please list some current ones. Try to make it more than .1% of those that can easily be documented as committed in the name of Islam.; 11/7/09, 6:07 PM
Unknown said...: ....hm, pogo, so are all somali's theives since there are somali pirates ?

... are all mexicans drug pushers, since there clearly is a problem in mexico ...

...are all black men have a prison record, given that there are so many in jail ..

.. are all russians in the russian mafia .. ?

... are all white men greedy given what we've come to see about wall street bankers and their bonuses; 11/7/09, 6:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Danielle, you purposely ignore percentages. The percentages speak volumes. They are empirical fact and won't go away because they make you uncomfortable.; 11/7/09, 6:10 PM
Andrea said...: "did you just say that an anti-abortion person who kills honestly acts for their (Christian) religion ?"

Oh for God's sakes, danielle, I said no such thing. Anyone with half a brain can understand what I wrote -- however, it does require at least half a brain.; 11/7/09, 6:11 PM
AC245 said...: danielle, why do you keep repeating the slander that someone here has said that murdering a doctor who does abortions is justified by Christianity?

I think anyone who might have been interested in your point of view initially has, by now, been discouraged from listening to you after your repeated ad hominem attacks on the other commenters, your disgustingly distorted misrepresentations of what other commenters have said, and your demonstrated factual ignorance of the topics you're lecturing other people about.

(Also, you're spamming the thread.); 11/7/09, 6:12 PM
DinobotPrime said...: Danielle
While it's unfair to judge a community for the actions of a few. Their silence of that same community speaks volumes of their assent of the crime committed by the major against his fellow soldiers. Did I hear that community condemn that muslim student when he ran over his fellow students at UNC with his SUV. Or if I am not mistaken, that community blamed the Mohammed cartoons, Bush and War against Terror for that student's crime.
Danielle, get over it that you are white, you are an American and your ancestors were criminals that stole the land from the American Indians and oh yeah, the worse crime of all, you were born Christian. If you somehow manage to grow up some spine,intellectually, morally and emotionally, you will figure out that evil flourishes when good people are afraid to confront it face to face.; 11/7/09, 6:12 PM
Dark Eden said...: >>>
"i have a degree in theology. i know a bit about islam, and i do have several muslim friends who i have questioned quite a bit on these issues."
>>>

Aha. So it seems your knowledge of Islam cannot live up to the rock solid claims you've made throughout this thread. Why don't you study the religion a bit more, as many of us have (Know Your Enemy) and then come back to us when you can argue with some knowledge about taqiyyah, dar al harb, the global caliphate, honor killings, stonings of homosexuals, and the treatment of women in even moderate, 'reasonable' muslim countries.

>>>
i just get very annoyed when i hear people stereotyping other groups, based largely on fear.
>>>

So I imagine you're pretty furious with all the stereotyping of Right Wingers, Tea Partiers, Southerners, Evangelical Christians, etc etc etc that those on the left do?; 11/7/09, 6:13 PM
Andrea said...: I find it interesting that danielle's Blogger profile is hidden.; 11/7/09, 6:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Means nothing Andrea. Mine is as bare bones as you get and not be hidden.; 11/7/09, 6:16 PM
Unknown said...: Oligonicella -- my comments have been directed to specific people. occasionally i have typed '..as some people here seem to think' because i didnt respond to every comment i found offensive. But i did say 'some' and not 'all', so i was not stereotyping.

you have asked me to list cases 'that can easily be documented as committed in the name of Islam' that have been prosecuted in foreign courts ? I don't have access to court records from other countries, do you ? The only case that has been widely covered is the mumbai bombers trial, in pakistan ....; 11/7/09, 6:20 PM
Unknown said...: andrea, you're mighty stalkerish, arent you ...; 11/7/09, 6:21 PM
Unknown said...: andrea, you're mighty stalkerish, arent you ...; 11/7/09, 6:21 PM
KCFleming said...: danielle ..."all"??

I would say "an egregious number" instead.

As for "are all white men greedy "
Heck, if only the rest of the world channeled their selfish impulses into mere greed, we'd be a hell of a lot better off.

As your training in Christianity must have taught you, all are fallen, none are without sin. So if capitalism can redirect men from violence to business proift, well, yes, let's do that!; 11/7/09, 6:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Is no one else disturbed (by which I mean HORRIFIED) that soldiers returning from war suffering from PTSD were sent to talk to this dude?

Imagine how much WORSE he made them feel.

Yikes.

What I've learned about the PC-ness of our military in the past few days sickens--and scares--me.

Yikes redux.; 11/7/09, 6:23 PM
Paddy O said...: What do you believe to be the role of Industrialization and modernization in what you see as modern Christianity, and do you think this could have similar effects if wide spread in the Muslim world ?

This is an important point. Because I think it's true. Industrialization and modernization make a difference. Empowering a middle class and providing freedom of conscience to make individual decisions amkes a difference.

The trouble is that even after billions of dollars being funneled into the Middle East, the worldwide oil boom, there has only been limited modernization and little industrialization. Most major goods are still imports. What kind of factories are there that would rival the sort we see in east Asian countries? There's oil, but there's very little other industry that could help support the broad range of workers and then help such workers become empowered.

Instead we see lots of money funneled into all sorts of diversions. And when oil runs out, the few oil rich will have their billions and the countries will still be poor.

Couple this with an almost total lack of religious freedom. It means the state religion is not only dependent on theology it is also dependent on craven politicians and leaders who have ulterior motives in inciting a disempowered populace to find the source of dissatisfaction elsewhere.

Yes, we can point to Christianity as having similar elements. And the fact is that Christianity 400 years ago was often something to be afraid of. Religious freedom here in the states (originally supported by some of the most ardent Christians) changed almost everything.

That there was a military/violent impulse in Islam can also be found in the very origin stories, and earliest eras--which shows an almost entire contrast to Christianity which existed for 300+ years as a persecuted religion. Islam was militarily charged and spread primarily through conquering regions. Which is why the earliest Christian churches are in Muslim lands now. It wasn't because of gentle proselytizing.

If this is not an inherent part of the religion, if there are indeed millions, maybe even a majority, who disagree with the harsh rhetoric of the jihadists, then like with the early Christians of the post-Reformation there has to be an absolutely substantive attempt to correct the misconceptions from within, rather than first blaming others for some supposed ignorance or bias.

Wash out the hate that is being spewed our way, rather than being shocked and dismayed there are many who have an opinion formed by the vocal hatred of men and women who represent this religion all over the world.

Christianity has had to bear the weight of its own misdeeds. And it is better because of it. Can Islam do the same? Or is it stuck in some false victimhood status where it claims oppression even as it rules major regions of the world which control the utterly dominant commodity of this era.

We know the role of industrialization and modernization in Christianity. What do you believe the role of Industrialization and modernization in Islamic countries will be? All signs, thus far, point to a hardening and radicalization of doctrine rather than a reformation and freedom for all.

I would love, love, love, the rhetoric you offer to be proven as true, but it is in precisely the regions where Islam is dominant that its character is measured.

Just as in the US over the last few hundred years--the land of freedom--where Christianity was shown to be able to be both strong in itself while offering increasing freedom to all.; 11/7/09, 6:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Danielle --

"I don't have access to court records from other countries, do you ?"

Don't need 'em. They make the news. Like that video of a group of men smashing a sixteen year old girl to death with stones because she dated (and daintily pulling her skirt down so her legs wouldn't show just before a large stone broke her back). Or perhaps you read in the news of SA condemning the young woman to death for converting to Christianity? Just two easy ones.

"The only case that has been widely covered is the mumbai bombers trial, in pakistan ...."

So, how is it I knew of the others?; 11/7/09, 6:23 PM
Unknown said...: Oligonicella -- i meant the only trials of suicide bombers widely covered in the media.

i would think that other such cases would be akin to 'local news' .... like all the stories on your local new program that dont make it to news.google.com .... what do you think ?

its *obviously* the case that in the entertainment-shock-enducing-meta-news that is the media that they would shine a light on those sorts of cases ...c'mon .... of course i heard of that case; and it is outrageous, which is exactly why it was posted to grab your attention.; 11/7/09, 6:32 PM
AST said...: This seems to be the official MSM narrative, along with "We can never know what caused Hasan to do this." At her Newsweek blog, Kate Dailey's headline is "Is Fort Hood a harbinger. Nidal Malik Hasan May Be a Symptom of a Military on the Brink." I wonder if they all just think this way reflexively or it's viral.

Ed Morissey calls it the "PTSD-by-proxy" theory or Pre-traumatic stress syndrome. I can't be that droll. I think it's despicable.

I don't think all Muslims are evil or hateful, but the number of them who are infected by the violent jihad meme can't be ignored either. We don't seem to be nearly as reluctant to worry about Postal workers . Pretending that we don't know what prompted Hasan to commit this atrocity is no service to ourselves or to Muslims.; 11/7/09, 6:33 PM
KCFleming said...: danielle, the burden of proof for Islam is on its practitioners. Their current face is violent, oppressive, and barbaric.

If they want to viewed otherwise, that's up to them.; 11/7/09, 6:37 PM
Anonymous said...: danielle --

"Oligonicella -- i meant the only trials of suicide bombers widely covered in the media."

Then you avoided my query. I said nothing about trials of suicide bombers, just atrocities committed in the name of religion. Don't move the goal posts.

"i would think .... what do you think ?"

It's that purposeful ignorance I mentioned. It ain't hard to find references to atrocities - suicide bombers or otherwise - via a number of avenues. You just don't.

"its *obviously* ... and it is outrageous, which is exactly why it was posted to grab your attention."

*ALL* atrocities are outrageous. Websters - "a·tro·cious - 1. extremely or shockingly wicked, cruel, or brutal: an atrocious crime."

You can find them if you look. By the way, you contradict yourself. You said "The only case that has been widely covered is the mumbai bombers trial, in pakistan ....". It wasn't the only case. Others were covered. Quit moving goal posts.; 11/7/09, 6:40 PM
Anonymous said...: Danielle, FYI, Mumbai (previously known as Bombay) is in India. It was an atrocity *committed by* Pakistani terrorists.; 11/7/09, 6:44 PM
Unknown said...: Paddy O -- great point. i agree that tendency is currently toward oligopoly, like in saudi arabia. but who knows about the future ? who knows how the effect of the connectedness to the west via the internet and entertainment etc will ultimately effect things ?

i am very encouraged by what i see in countries like Turkey (somewhat of an exeception); and also the recent uprising in Iran ... I'd say their internal push for engagement with the rest of the world, though pushed back currently, i still brewing. It was amazing to see how they used modern technologies to organize, and to get their message out to the world. I dont think its possible to successfully rule with an iron fist indefinitely.

If anything, I'd say globalization will eventually push many of these somewhat guarded populations into more contact, and spur a deeper desire for these freedoms (among the young primarily) ....

I dont know how long it will take ... but honestly, I do think that's where things are headed; 11/7/09, 6:44 PM
Anonymous said...: OK, maybe you were referring to the sham trial in Pakistan. Other trials of Mumbai bombers (there have been several) have taken place in India.; 11/7/09, 6:48 PM
Unknown said...: gosh, Oligonicella ....

i'm really not sure what your point is ... you want proof that these atrocities are being prosecuted by local governments; i've said that except for the sensational ones, they're unlikely to make world news. do you dispute this ?

...and clearly, we all know where mumbai is ... for someone so concerned about the tone you perceive in me, you are sounding mighty preachy and snarky ..; 11/7/09, 6:51 PM
DinobotPrime said...: Danielle
While I agree with you, the reverse is also true. Case in point, the problems the UK, France,Germany, Netherlands,Italy,Sweden,Denmark and Norway are having with the Arab Muslim youths. The same internet are being used by radical Islam supporters to radicalized European born Arabs and instill in them, hatred of the West and it's civilization.

In regards to Turkey, they are gravitating to Iran's sphere of influence.

Radical Islam and Wahhabism hate serious scrutiny. If our politicians , Academics, the media performed the same rigorous scrutiny and hard hitting criticism they apply against Evangelicals,Jews,conservatives, the Military and big corporations to these two. Then and only then, real progress against Radical Islam will be made.; 11/7/09, 6:58 PM
Anonymous said...: danielle --

"i'm really not sure what your point is ... you want proof that these atrocities are being prosecuted by local governments;"

Not at all what I said and you know it. Don't move goal posts and don't distort. Others have noted that tendency as well. Go back and read for comprehension.

"i've said that except for the sensational ones, they're unlikely to make world news. do you dispute this ?"

Yep. I've heard about them. How come you haven't?

"...and clearly, we all know where mumbai is ... for someone so concerned about the tone you perceive in me, you are sounding mighty preachy and snarky .."

Read my caveat a couple of posts down from that. Hey, tit for tat you know.; 11/7/09, 7:01 PM
The Drill SGT said...: danielle said...
i am very encouraged by what i see in countries like Turkey (somewhat of an exeception);

Then you are aware the Turkey, previously secular and Western oriented is sliding toward Sharia under the control of the AKP, an conservative Islamist party. They control the majority of parliment, and with 5% more more the plarliment, they will have a super majority able to change the Constitution. And that the Army has threatened a coup to defend democracy.

and you are very encouraged by this?; 11/7/09, 7:02 PM
Anonymous said...: No Drill, she's selectively ignorant of that.; 11/7/09, 7:03 PM
The Scythian said...: "i am very encouraged by what i see in countries like Turkey (somewhat of an exeception);"

You do know that Turkey has been doing the exact opposite of what you're saying here, right? That the anti-secularists are actually winning, and that the crypto-Islamist party currently in power has been arresting secularists to reduce opposition to its agenda?

In reality, Turkey (as a nation) is actively seeking to disengage from the West and from modernity. It's entirely possible that the Kemalists and Laicists will lose the fight for Turkey's future.

If you are encouraged by what you see in Turkey these days, this indicates simply that you don't really know what's going on in Turkey, because Attaturk's dream of a secular Turkey is literally dying before our eyes.; 11/7/09, 7:06 PM
Unknown said...: Hey Will -- you're definitely right about that. For radical Islam ... and by radical I mean Al Qaeda style -- i think we'll have to be a lot more strategic and aggressive. I think it will have to be based on CIA-style intelligence, and swift, quick, targeted hits on the crazies that will always exist.

with regards to their ability to recruit people, I think that when as a world community we can address poverty and oppressions and freedoms in a meaningful and respectful way (i mean here that some aspect of western culture, they may reject), then I think will will limit recruiting ability and help to bring the growth issue under control; 11/7/09, 7:07 PM
DinobotPrime said...: Danielle
So in other words, if Muslim radicals kill a Christian family in Mindanao, beheads some Buddhist priest in Southern Thailand and kidnap some Copt women and forcefully have them convert to Islam and forced them to marry some Arab Muslim guy, that's not news.

But it's news when the Quran is found in the toilet, it's news when a mosque is burned to the ground and it was caused by Christian soldiers performing their duties . It's sensational news to you when Abu Graib is mentioned. Thank you for the lesson of moral relativism.; 11/7/09, 7:07 PM
Anonymous said...: danielle --

"with regards to their ability to recruit people, I think that when as a world community we can address poverty and oppressions and freedoms in a meaningful and respectful way (i mean here that some aspect of western culture, they may reject), then I think will will limit recruiting ability and help to bring the growth issue under control"

Regardless of the facts (I know they bother you) that many suicide bombers and terrorists come from well to do families and have higher educations?

So what you want is to wait for the world to join hands and sing nicely?

wv: oveli - O veli? That'll work?; 11/7/09, 7:11 PM
Anonymous said...: danielle, with her "no capital letters" and moral equivalence reminds me of the old fashioned trolls we saw after 9/11. But this is the biggest attack since 9/11 so it makes sense.; 11/7/09, 7:12 PM
Kirk Parker said...: danielle,

"i am very encouraged by what i see in countries like Turkey (somewhat of an exeception)"

So can we conclude you haven't actually looked at the Turkey situation for the last 15 years or so? Because it's going very much in the wrong direction...; 11/7/09, 7:13 PM
DinobotPrime said...: Here is a hint,Danielle. The world community is full of it. I would not trust the UN, the Red Cross or any NGO in alleviating poverty and stopping oppression. Drop Political correctness, multiculturalism and diversity from the English language and apply the same principles that the British applied in order to stop the practice of Sati in India and Americans under Pershing in Mindanao.; 11/7/09, 7:15 PM
Unknown said...: sigh ... why, oh why, will, are you putting words in my mouth ?

my point is local trials for whatever sorts of crimes are committed do not make news unless they are sensational ... all of the cases you mentioned are sensational (particularly to the west) so yah, it made world news.

i have no access to local news. i think that would be a better measure of what's going on ....

actually, by analogy -- in america, it seems our media is slanted these days toward celebrity gossip. Someone reading, say, cnn shouldnt take that to mean that there is no local court system ... but i have no idea how they'd find out about it unless they know the url of the local paper ... if the local news/paper is even on the internet ...

OK. I'm done with this topic.; 11/7/09, 7:16 PM
The Scythian said...: Drill SGT and Kirk:

Isn't it wild that Danielle has demonstrated time and time again that she doesn't have the faintest clue what she's talking about, yet we're the ones who are getting a condescending sighing lecture to correct our ignorance.; 11/7/09, 7:20 PM
DinobotPrime said...: Danielle
You have access to local news of every country . In fact, you are using it right now. It's called the internet.; 11/7/09, 7:21 PM
traditionalguy said...: A last thought about Major Hasan: he fit the manchurian candidate profile to the tee. A nice Officer with a career in defending the USA, but after his parents died he became brainwashed by the same Imam/spiritist that did 3 of the 9/11 hijackers. The open door was his parents membership in the Cult of the Prophet Mohammed. He accepted a re-programing and then awaited his moment to be activated as an assassin. In Texas he got himself a laser spot sighted 357 Mag. assassins weapon and taking careful aim he fired systematically in ambush of unarmed American soldiers headed to war with Islam fundamentalists. He also aimed and shot Kimberly Munley, but she was armed and was the better warrior and fired faster and suddenly the Christian religion of peace re-established its reign of peace at Ft Hood Texas.; 11/7/09, 7:22 PM
JAL said...: I think we had the FOBBIT converstaion a couple months ago.

Remember?

Eisenhower was a FOBBIT.

So.; 11/7/09, 7:22 PM
Anonymous said...: danielle --

"sigh ... why, oh why, will, are you putting words in my mouth ?"

'Tis to laugh.

"my point is local trials for whatever sorts of crimes are committed do not make news unless they are sensational ... all of the cases you mentioned are sensational (particularly to the west) so yah, it made world news."

As the only damned thing we've been posting about is atrocities, we haven't been concerned that local press accounts of shoplifting don't make national news.

That aside, one can easily access news world wide with something named after that phenomenon. That you don't (as evidenced by your abysmal knowledge of Turkey) speaks volumes for your worth as a proponent for the "let's all just get along" side of the debate.

vw: larming - It's larming how many on the left are self-selectively ignorant.; 11/7/09, 7:23 PM
The Drill SGT said...: Will said...Drop Political correctness, multiculturalism and diversity from the English language and apply the same principles that the British applied in order to stop the practice of Sati in India

LOL, Will, I love to retell that story:

A story for which Napier is famous involves a delegation of Hindu locals approaching him and complaining about prohibition of Sati, often referred to at the time as suttee, by British authorities. This was the custom of burning widows alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands. The exact wording of his response varies somewhat in different reports, but the following version captures its essence:

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

so much for multicultural relativism; 11/7/09, 7:24 PM
Andrea said...: Oligonicella: I was wrong, I actually should have said that I thought it was kind of odd that danielle, who is so careful to tell us she's a christian (small letter her spelling) and lecture us on how we should "respect" Islam and either deliberately or ignorantly misread our words to fit her own preconceptions, chooses not to have a public profile. Because as you say you don't have to have much in it. But even that little she hides. I just think it's -- telling. Anyway, despite what she claims, there's nothing "stalkerish" about clicking on a person's profile link. That's what it's there for.

By the way, use of meaningless stock phrases like "the human cost of war" and "I think that when as a world community we can address poverty and oppressions and freedoms in a meaningful and respectful way" sure do make her sound like one of those mindless bromide-squirting trolls that infested blogs and forums after 9/11. I thought back then they were some kind of spambot because they sounded all alike.; 11/7/09, 7:28 PM
DinobotPrime said...: I have a strong hunch that many american kids don't know how the practice of Sati was stopped in India due to PC and multiculturalism. But at least they know Abu Graib. Sad, so sad.; 11/7/09, 7:29 PM
Anonymous said...: danielle --

"i have no access to local news. i think that would be a better measure of what's going on ...."

You realize you've just admitted you are a poor measure of what's going on in the world, right?; 11/7/09, 7:29 PM
Alex said...: Ok, danielle is on my virtual killfile.; 11/7/09, 7:33 PM
Anonymous said...: I happen to personally agree that she's way odd Andrea. My pedantry expressed itself. Sorry.

I'm just playing Whack a Mole because of my belief that you shouldn't let posts of her nature exist unanswered (or eviscerated, in her case) because her language is so familiar to college age kids.

wv: knortf - The sound I was typically making as I read her posts and the responses.; 11/7/09, 7:34 PM
AST said...: I trust the assessments of trained professionals. There's your first mistake, assuming that the "trained professionals" cited by the NYTimes represent the consensus of all psychiatrists. One thing you learn practicing law is that you can find and hire trained professionals to testify just about however you want them to. And newspapers nowadays aren't much different from lawyers advocating a point of view.

All any of us really has is his own experience and observations, including what he may have read or heard in the media, but this die-hard insistence that one's own opinions must be correct because they're based on " the assessments of trained professionals" is at the heart of statism, which falsely calls itself progressive. It's the idea that trained professionals know better what's good for the rest of us and only need more political power to bring about paradise on earth. That kind of thinking is what justifies modern day exponents of politics that without opposition ratchet toward totalitarianism.; 11/7/09, 7:34 PM
David said...: Two words: "Personal responsibility."

The left elites will embrace any bullshit to avoid making Major Hasan personally responsible.

I imagine Sgt. Kimberly Munley is experiencing a bit of post trauma stress, having been shot three times in stopping Major Hasan's rampage. Take away her badge and gun! Remove her from the police force! Get her to counseling right away! She has become dangerous. Who knows who she might kill.; 11/7/09, 7:36 PM
JAL said...: NYT is suffering from PIS.

Post irrelevance syndrome.

To wit:

Not only are there radical Islamic connections with his Muslim Community Center in Silver Spring, MD, including a NY Post link, Hasan really liked the dude who imam-ed the Great Falls, VA mosque where he attended in 2001. On a rug near him one might have found Nawaf al-Hamzi and Hani Hanjour, 2 of the 9/11 hijackers.

As for stress -- premeditated, not "snapped."

According to the Sunday Telegraph (see above) in August Hasan purchased, and practiced with, "a FN Five-Seven, a semi-automatic pistol popular with SWAT teams, that can fire armour-piercing bullets." Oh yeah, and a S&W.

Sounds premeditated to me.

BTW -- why do I have to learn this from a Britsh newspaper?; 11/7/09, 7:42 PM
Lisa said...: The Telegraph even commented on how hard the American media was going out of its way to avoid blaming this on Islam even though he was shouting Allah Akbar and had a history of supporting suicide bombing.; 11/7/09, 7:51 PM
avwh said...: "BTW -- why do I have to learn this from a British newspaper?"

You expect the MSM to investigate? They're much too busy cheerleading, and covering for Barack Hussein Obama.

The PC lefties can't have their multiculturalism or diversity challenged, and the only religious intolerance tolerated is against Christians.

Since they're bending over backwards not to offend the Muslims, it also makes it much easier to keep their heads up their asses.; 11/7/09, 7:55 PM
Unknown said...: wow, some of you folks here are brutal ! the personal attacks are so childish (Alex, Andrea).

youngblood -- i sigh only when people are putting words in my mouth, or bending something that I have said.

Oligonicella, Will -- you complain about seeming 'condescension,' but really you are the ones with the snooty tone.

Its really too bad that some of you are so unwelcoming of someone with a different view point than you.

anyhow -- its been real, certainly interesting, a little scary w/ people like andrea making really stalker-like and nutty statements...

for what its worth, i think its highly possible that Hasan became radicalized, but I also am very interested to know the role that stress (from the work he did, but also other areas of stress) and the seeming loss of control over his life (having to go to Afganistan) played in his dispicable acts ...; 11/7/09, 7:59 PM
HT said...: PatCA said...

danielle, with her "no capital letters" and moral equivalence reminds me of the old fashioned trolls we saw after 9/11. But this is the biggest attack since 9/11 so it makes sense.

===

But it's not the biggest attack since 9/11. Va Tech was.; 11/7/09, 8:00 PM
hombre said...: Alex wrote: ...As soon as danielle started talking about abortion bombers, she became VERY animated and angry! But whenever she discusses innocent Muslims, she is in a very calm manner. I think we have a bigot, ladies and gentleman!

I didn't get that at all. She says she's Christian and didn't care for the implication that Christian abortion clinic bombers were acting in furtherance of their faith.

In my opinion, her arguments are generally misplaced, but it is certainly easier to remain "calm" in the face of misstatements about someone else's religion.

Here's an example of a misplaced argument: also, my intent isnt to lecture. i just get very annoyed when i hear people stereotyping other groups, based largely on fear.

@danielle: the stereotyping is based on the actions and declarations a very large sampling of "the group." At this point the conclusions about the danger posed by Islam are completely rational. Your contrary position is not based on facts or reason.; 11/7/09, 8:05 PM
The Scythian said...: avwh wrote:

"Since they're bending over backwards not to offend the Muslims, it also makes it much easier to keep their heads up their asses."

They're not bending over backwards to avoid offending Muslims. They are bending over backwards to maintain the illusion that the things they say and write about are relevant.

Liberals accuse their political opponents of believing in the myth of American exceptionalism, that America and its traditions and institutions are the source of all good in the world.

However, Liberals themselves subscribe to a kind of inversion of this. A Muslim murderer cannot simply be a Muslim murderer. He must have been victimized and militarized into action by America's institutions and traditions, because America must be the sole source of discord in the world.

If upper middle class American liberals did not believe this to be the case, then the navel gazing and criticizing that they indulge in is irrelevant and they are powerless.

And navel gazing and criticizing is literally all they know how to do. It's all they've been trained to do.

The quicker that Conservatives and moderates and apolitical pragmatists understand this fact, the quicker we can heal our nation and get it back on the right track again.; 11/7/09, 8:07 PM
William said...: The worst atrocities of the 20th Century were committed in the Soviet Union, Germany, and China. The people who committed them considered themselves to be enlightened and forward thinking. People can be just as crazy about their ideology as they are about their religion.....In Great Britain, Indians of Hindu descent have a higher level of education and income than Indians of Moslem descent. Something about their religion or traditions is working against the Muslims in England.....My version of Occam's Razor is that the dumbest explanation is usually correct. I think civilization advances as women advance. The bias against women in Moslem countries holds those countries back. I take particular exception to the veil, jigab, burka, etc. A woman's greatest bargaining chip is her beauty. An attractive woman has an awful lot of leverage in the ordinary exchanges of life. Make her into a dark, unapproachable object and all those advantages disappear. Being a sex object allows women to make some men their subjects, and all men their visible equals. Whatever indignities our culture heaps upon Scarlet Johansen, she will never be stoned to death......It is worth noting that in the 6th century and again in the 18th, Christians worked actively to abolish Christianity. There is something in Christianity that is anathema to slavery. You cannot say the same thing about Islam.; 11/7/09, 8:07 PM
William said...: ERRATA: First sentence, last paragraph should read: In the 6h and 18th centuries, Christians worked actively to abolish slavery. (In our own time, however, Christians are working actively to abolish Christianity.); 11/7/09, 8:21 PM
Andrea said...: "She says she's Christian and didn't care for the implication that Christian abortion clinic bombers were acting in furtherance of their faith."

Then she's upset about something no one said. Which makes me think that this is something she herself believes, and that she's no more a "Christian" than Hasan is.; 11/7/09, 8:22 PM
David said...: Do not feed the new trolls.

Do not feed the old trolls.

If you feed them, they will want to stay.; 11/7/09, 8:25 PM
Alex said...: Bottom line here is danielle and fer fellow travellers have bent over backwards so far that they have achieved famed rectal cranium insertion!; 11/7/09, 8:47 PM
JAL said...: did anyone ascertain how old danielle is?

sorry to pull the age / experience trump card, but the logic is a bit ....

lacking?; 11/7/09, 8:48 PM
Alex said...: Whatever danielle claims to be, one thing she isn't is decent.; 11/7/09, 8:48 PM
The Drill SGT said...: David said...
If you feed them, they will want to stay.

But when she bends down to feed, it's so colourful:

http://factman.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/baboon_ass.jpg

wv= agram; 11/7/09, 8:57 PM
William said...: I predict that Dr. Nasan will be Danielle's Ted Bundy. She will write him endless letters in prison. The fact that he's in prison and paralyzed from the waist down will only add to his romantic appeal. Poor Dr. Nasan whose life was so bereft of love will finally meet his soulmate. Dr. Nasan had taken up jihad largely because, despite having an MD degree, he could not meet any suitable women. He decided to go the 72 virgins route. His motivation was not so different than the lonely guy who shot up that gymn. But Allah moves in strange ways his wonders to perform. Ironically this heinous crime will allow him to meet the love of his life. After Obama pardons him, he and Danielle will move to Syria where he will set up shop counselling stressed out AQ vets. Danielle will convert to Islam and take to wearing the veil. She will find living in an environment where no one makes fun of her hairy warts strangely liberating. Al Jazeera Lifetime will make a two part, six hour movie of their inspiring love story.; 11/7/09, 9:44 PM
Cedarford said...: I am not sure about Pogo's experiences and how it forms the basis of denying med professionals do get PTSD. He treats some PTSD cases, so undoubtedly he knows more than me.

Yet there is s substantial body of work going back to WWI shell shock caregivers that claims medical professionals - REMFs though they may be to some, do suffer from PTSD condition.
The following is an article by the Major General heading the Army Nursing Corps, talking about techniques to help reduce or eliminate cases of PTSD in Army nurses. Gen. Gale Pollack said the drive was to avoid the Vietnam experience when PTSD was common in medical professionals treating battlefield injuries:

http://www.nurseweek.com/news/Features/05-03/ChiefArmyRN.asp

So I'd keep an open mind to the possibility of PTSD by proxy.

Obviously the NY Times and is owners the Sulzbergers - remain desperate for any explaination of what Hasan did other than him being a violent Islamoid - and even happier if it gets the Sulzbergers an opportunity to smear soldiers (Punch Sulzberger, a decorcated Marine war hero, is likely turning over in his grave at his progressive Jewish son's libels against US military forces). And PTSD does NOT manifest, I believe, in sufferers seeking to kill comrades in arms..

But an open mind should be maintained. His parents were Westernized. He apparantly grew up in America with little beef towards the land he was born in. But something within Hasan appears to have driven him to a harder, more radical Islam in recent years. And until or if they question him, complete investigation on his conversations and internet activities, and interview others further - we should remain open to something deeply troubling this socially inept man...and his seeking refuge from what bothered him in immersing himself and his prospects of salvation...in radical Islam.; 11/7/09, 9:50 PM
Alex said...: C4 - but but do any of those PTSD-by-proxy committed massacres? Or maybe it was the Joooooooz who made Hasan do it?; 11/7/09, 10:02 PM
The Drill SGT said...: C4 said...Gen. Gale Pollack said the drive was to avoid the Vietnam experience when PTSD was common in medical professionals treating battlefield injuries:

I'll split the difference with you and note that the folks she was referring to were:

- deployed
- vulnerable to convoy attacks and mortars
- were fighting literally ever day on their battlefield, the OR, amid blood and horror.

Hasan, faced none of those things.

I also note that her brief story of PTSD soldiers matched my sleep and loud noises examples as well.

During a visit to the Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, Pollock talked to 14 soldiers who had amputations or burns from wounds they received in Iraq. When she asked them if they were sleeping, many said they were trying not to sleep because they didn’t want to dream about their experience in Iraq. She also asked the soldiers if they startled easily when something was unexpectedly dropped on the floor. Some of the soldiers told her they did.; 11/7/09, 10:09 PM