IN THE COMMENTS: d said:
I love how Ann doesn't get exercised over politics, but does over literature!Thanks for getting me.
November 19, 2009
Finally! The Bloggingheads with me and Michelle Goldberg, talking about Sarah Palin's book...
... and assorted other things....
IN THE COMMENTS: d said:
IN THE COMMENTS: d said:
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220 comments:
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Ewww, this is not a dermatological discussion! But of course, we all knew that...
Right?
bullying, vulgar embodiment of the Red State id
Michele Goldberg is a wretched, hate-filled bigot dressed in a nice package. Why does left defend her bigotry?
Honestly, does anyone even believe she's smart? Oh yeah, she actually compares Obama's Book to "War and Peace". Guess that answer's that question.
Listening to it only. Goldberg is too hard to actually watch.
WAIT!!!
Ann! You are wearing the same outfit you wore in July!
Right?
Or was the piece below from todays Diavlog?
Spy vs. Spy, by Sergio Aragones!
BTW, I say again, what are those piles of papers on your back wall? Great American novel or something?
But adult American's can take heart faced with hate-filled bigots like Goldberg:
Obama's job approval below 50% - in not just one, but 2 major polls - as of today. 53% of Americans disapprove of Obama's job performance. Even the liberal Brookings Institute says that's bad for Obama and Democrats, and not likely to get better soon.
And, just when all you hear in the media is how the country is in love with Democrat policies:
By a 3-to-1 margin, voters believe that tax cuts will create more jobs than additional government stimulus spending. Most also believe that canceling the rest of the stimulus spending will create more jobs than spending the money that’s been approved. On both topics, the Political Class disagrees.
C'mon 2010!
I'm only 14 minutes in, but it's like the Lindsey Graham/ Eric Holder clip all over again.
I'm loving this!
Michelle: This conversation is boring because I'm not doing very well.
To spare everyone from watching this (just listen), imagine the following:
Michelle Goldberg's face...
tilt head
raise eyebrows slightly
purse lips
flip hair
look away from camera
pretend to drink tea
purse lips
tilt head
blink
smile with pursed lips
make shitty point
stomp feet
blink
flip hair
Michelle, you're playing the part of Eric Holder. Just so you know.
By the way Ann, love the take on NUANCE.
Rialby pinned it. Goldberg's facial contortions and her nervous tea sipping reveal that she is way out of her league.
wv: turtgarg. Goldberg choking on her words.
Obama as Tolstoy! Nice.
So far this is not a fair fight. Althouse is accustomed to pressing people (law students) who have not thought things through. Michelle is obviously unused to being pressed and questioned. She is also not very well prepared.
The distinction of Dreams from my Father as interesting material (which it is) from high level literature is a good one.
I don't see Michelle as hate filled. It's more that she is totally incapable of understanding Palin's appeal. She's a self described "urbanite" who just does not get the values of a conservative.
Althouse: Palin as a female pet. Well, she allowed herself to be caged and fed, if that's true.
Michelle wants the unedited Palin interviews published. She brightens at this. She really would like to find some things to agree with Althouse about.
Do you suppose Michelle really read the book, or just skimmed and chose.
I think that she sincerely thought that if she called Dreams of My Father a bildungsroman that you would have no choice but to agree that "yes, it is indeed nuanced."
My goodness I'm laughing so hard at this.
She asked - do people really get to go exercise?
Really? Seriously? For eff's sake. That's the only successful thing that Barack Obama has done for the last 3 years. Oh, besides convincing everyone he's a moderate and has a solid temperment.
"No introspection, no doubt" about being VP candidate. I agree with Michelle that this is kind of strange.
Thoughtfulness ritual--yeah, that's a pretty good insight.
Obama as intellectual? He's no intellectual, and intellectuals make good leaders? No, they make good intellectuals (sometimes.)
Why does she keep saying "nuanced"? She just did it again in reference to Obama!
When Goldberg says that she's bored with Palin and annoyed by or with Palin...that's sufficient? No reason has to be given? No reason has to be given because Goldberg knows that she's on the establishment side, the enlightened side, the sophisticated side; and that painfully unironic painfully direct Palin person from nowheresville isn't. And that's that. She is to be dismissed because she's not them. She's not part of the club. That's the alpha and omega of anointed Americans' response to the Palin phenomenon. She annoys them.
If Sarah Palin is the Republican Barack Obama, then who is the Republican Hillary Clinton?
Is Obama in a state of shock? If he isn't he should be because he's being hit again and again with things that surprise him.
From Instapundit:
THE INSTA-DAUGHTER ON WATCHING PALIN: “Sarah Palin’s got to stop blaming the media soon. It’s like Obama blaming George W. Bush for everything. It works for a while and then it gets old.”
Geithner was blaming Bush today for his own problems. Geithner, who was President of Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which supervised the New York Banks.
This is amazing. And Althouse didn't even particularly like Palin or her book.
Worse statement of the whole thing: I still think McCain would have been worse (Althouse)
Now, that's just crazy talk.
Goldberg is about as convincing as Holder was in those hearings the other day - completely lame, with no substance. Ann completely ran circles around her, and didn't let Goldberg's faux sophistication and "nuance" without substance stand.
Interesting that Goldberg hates/is bored by Palin, when Goldberg shows by mugging for the camera that she's CLEARLY gotten by on her looks so far in her relatively short life.
Good to see Ann has finally woken up and realized just how lame the Zero is, too.
Althouse: "Universities as holding pens" for people who want to spend their life thinking!
"Holding pens . . . ." That is one I'm going to remember.
I think it's important to understand the role of Ms Goldberg's jewishness in her animus against Palin and the "dominionists".
Reform Judaism and the post-religious jewish identity that follows it despises Evangelical Christianity because they are mirror images of each other at the opposite sides of the political spectrum. Both are American inventions of the late 19th C from the American heartland (the center of 19th c reform Judaism was Cincinnati). One a religion of almost 100% immigrants and the other almost 100% native-born at their formation. Both involve dumping a historically-weighty theological tradition and replacing it with a religion of free choice without church hierarchy. Both have over the period of over a century hollowed out their theological cores and replaced them with political talking points --- the Jews from the DNC and the Evangelicals from the RNC.
I am a little disappointed that Althouse wasn't dressed like a pirate.
Reformed Jews are about as religious as Unitarians.
Michelle is a bubble girl. She just can't fathom the world outside of Brooklyn, the Daily Beast and her literary-academic background. She seems very nice, quite bright, but she can't fathom life outside the bubble.
Hey, Michelle, you aren't a dog. Don't let the Palin hotness get you down. I think you're cute.
Try to really get some empathy with the other side. It will help your career in the long run. Among other things.
Sorry for all the comments--I've never watched one of those things end to end before. Seems its mostly for the participants, who clearly were having a good time. Not a bad gig at all.
Can anyone explain the "evolution" in Dreams From My Father that Ms. Goldberg keeps referring to? I don't remember that at all. Evolution from what to what? (and please don't tell me something lame like "from a boy to a man")
(In the interest of disclosure, I found "Dreams" insufferably boring and self-important, and really had to force myself through it.)
WV: Puricapt: What occurs when a person feels compeled to say something intellectual sounding about a work, but nothing truly intellectual exists.
If Michelle had the temerity to show some sympathy for the other side it not only wouldn't help her career, it more than likely would put an abrupt end to her career.
Why is it that whenever -- WHENEVER! -- I check out a discussion of Palin, the pro-Palin side ALWAYS shifts the discussion to a critique of President Barack Obama? I'm serious. Look through the 34 previous comments for a serious defense of Palin and you will find not one -- just snark and trashing of Michelle Goldberg. Is it really impossible for ADULTS to engage in ADULT discussion in this country anymore?
Seriously!
"It's going really badly, Michelle"
God, I loved that delivery, Professor.
Kind of an intellectual mismatch, I'd say, and almost difficult to watch at times.
Someone needs to tell Michelle Goldberg just how unattractive she is. It would take a paper bag and a box of wine for me to consider it.
What if the bag breaks?
"Can anyone explain the "evolution" in Dreams From My Father that Ms. Goldberg keeps referring to? "
From corporeal, mortal human to Divine Immortal Godhead?
From bored, disaffected, listless, privileged, trans-nationalist quasi-white kid to an authentic black man, down on the streets, fightin' the Man?
From overt commie to crypto commie and now back again?
Michelle has a deep--and substance free--faith in Barack Obama.
"Michelle is a bubble girl. She just can't fathom the world outside of Brooklyn, the Daily Beast and her literary-academic background. She seems very nice, quite bright, but she can't fathom life outside the bubble."
Heh.
This is why I was never much interested in the boys from my home town. I don't think it really matters that it was due to small town isolation just that it was isolation and a lack of interest in the world outside of their normal sphere. Well that doesn't take a small town or farm, does it.
I'd say that it can be the converse, actually, that in a rural community or a small town, a person is forced to interact with everyone and form friendships with those you've nothing in common with. In a city it's possible to isolate yourself among your peers.
But I won't say that because I think that it's not where you are so much at all, but how determined you are to isolate yourself.
Is it really impossible for ADULTS to engage in ADULT discussion in this country anymore?
Well, it's either Obama or Bush.
"But what about Bush?" or "But what about Obama?".
Tribalism and all that.
Sarah Palin is such an easy target that to miss this badly as Ms. Goldberg did is astonishing.
It is fascinating that the right complains about the "Ophrafication" of American politics and many of them rally around the quintessential talk show host in Palin.
She really is an empty skirt.
And the left and Palin? See the clip.
Crazy.
"Why is it that whenever -- WHENEVER! -- I check out a discussion of Palin, the pro-Palin side ALWAYS shifts the discussion to a critique of President Barack Obama?"
Why is it whenever - WHENEVER! - there's criticism of Obama, the lefties here do nothing but bash Bush?
Obama OWNS the stimulus, he OWNS the auto industry bailout that gave those companies to the unions, he OWNS Afghanistan - the "right war", he campaigned on. He OWNS KSM in civil court in NYC, he OWNS the failing relations with China (communists lecturing US on spending and the strength of our currency b/c they're now our bankers), he OWNS a healthcare reform debacle (b/c he farmed it out to Pelosi & Reid).
My god - not even 10 minutes elapse, and along comes "avwh" to prove my point.
The subject here is SARAH PALIN.
"Look through the 34 previous comments for a serious defense of Palin and you will find not one -- just snark and trashing of Michelle Goldberg. Is it really impossible for ADULTS to engage in ADULT discussion in this country anymore?
Seriously!"
YA SRSLY!
Many of us don't offer a defense, SRSLY or otherwise, of Palin because we don't really like her. But the thing is we don't like Barack Obama or stupid, pretentious twats (in the English sense, not the sexist sense) either. In fact some of us like those two things a lot less than we like Palin because Palin, unlike the aforementioned two things, isn't currently destroying our economy, our security and our liberty.
If you think a hair-flipping whinging New York Jew class-ist bigot saying the word "nuance" repeatedly is an ADULT discussion, by all means, go elsewhere and have it. I'll stay here with the snarky CHILDREN. Much, much less painful.
wv: waners. Apt description of Obama and the Democrats as we head to 2010, popularity-wise.
"The subject here is SARAH PALIN."
O RLY?
I think the topic here is ineffectual, inexperienced political celebrities, Alex. I'll take Barack Obama and Sarah Palin for 1000, please.
Yikes. Anger management anyone?
You all enjoy yourselves.
"
It is fascinating that the right complains about the "Ophrafication" of American politics and many of them rally around the quintessential talk show host in Palin.
She really is an empty skirt.
And the left and Palin? See the clip.
Crazy."
See, this is what we ADULTS call ADULT discussion, Dennis.
I must admit, I do like Palin inasmuch as she drives the stupidest, wrongest people entertainingly, bat-shittingly bonkers. I don't want her as President, but I like her as a talisman against evil.
Sarah Palin is my bulb of garlic against the vampires of urban "liberal" douchery.
I put "liberal" in quotes because most self-described liberals in 2009 wouldn't know liberty if she came up from behind and shoved a torch up their asses.
(1) I didn't and still don't get both of the your hesitance to go out and buy the book-treating it like it was buying porn or something.
(2) Goldberg drops too many "aren't I so literary terms": Bilderroman [sp?], ersatz, simulacra. They added nothing, and you called her on the ersatz one.
(3) You did sort of crowd her out in the beginning.
(4) I disagree with the agreement that Palin's only here, only being talked about, because she's pretty.
" Yikes. Anger management anyone?
You all enjoy yourselves."
This is anger management, Dennis, and we shall enjoy ourselves. We shall...
We're in a heckuva situation when Obama defenders have to point to Bush or Palin to deflect criticism and Palin defenders point to Obama to deflect it.
Right, one is President and the other is a talkshow cum moose hunter cum politician. Which is worse?
Y'know, we really are screwed.
Welcome Paladian buddy! Happy Thanksgiving!
p.s. I don't think Dennis gets your brand of humor.
Dennis: Why is it that whenever -- WHENEVER! -- I check out a discussion of Palin, the pro-Palin side ALWAYS shifts the discussion to a critique of President Barack Obama? I'm serious. Look through the 34 previous comments for a serious defense of Palin and you will find not one -- just snark and trashing of Michelle Goldberg.
I'm five of those 34 comments and I don't like Palin the politician. I also happen to not like how Michelle Goldberg behaves.
Professor:
I enjoyed that soundbite too: "universities as holding pens for people who just want to think".
Palin is self pity and Obama is pathos.
Uh, huh.
Because latin words are fancy.
chickenlittle : (3) You did sort of crowd her out in the beginning.
I think she does that often, you give Althouse an inch, she'll take a mile. But that's for her fellow bloggingheadians to deal with.
I too am quite nuanced. Wanna see? Okay, I'll display a few of my deep thinkie-thoughts, here goes,
. There. How's that for nuance, Bitch? It's so nuanced, you can read whatever you want into it!
That was so nuanced I nearly lost contact with physical reality. I'm compelled to make some sweet potato crisps to refocus and realign my supernal self to the real world of edges and material surfaces.
ricpic said...
"If Michelle had the temerity to show some sympathy for the other side it not only wouldn't help her career, it more than likely would put an abrupt end to her career."
Depends on the career she wants. If she wants to be a journalist to the bubble, you are right. But there is more world out there.
Somehow I think she's going to want to progress beyond giving lectures to Planned Parenthood and writing for the daily beast. I don't see that as an option when she is Althouse's (ripe and classic) age.
"Bilderroman [sp?], ersatz, simulacra. They added nothing, and you called her on the ersatz one."
Using these kind of words makes insecure girls and boys think that they're INTELLEKSHULZ. To say "simulacra" gives the people not smart enough to go into the sciences or maths or serious academic studies a frisson of inscrutable excitement from the bottom of their sublimated post-gender territories to the tops of their sub-dialectic thousand plateaus.
Sarah Palin is my bulb of garlic against the vampires of urban "liberal" douchery.
Palladian gets bonus points for using "vampires" and "douchery" in the same sentence. Nice one!
"you give Althouse an inch, she'll take a mile."
Law Professor, folks. It's in the blood.
I have no idea who Michelle Goldber is as I don't follow all these blogger people.
I do think she is kind of cute though. I would not call her unattractive-physically.
"Palin is self pity and Obama is pathos."
I think more that Palin is Eros and Obama is Thanatos.
Or maybe Palin is Scylla and Obama is Charybdis and we're all a bunch of sailors in a wooden boat.
Rialby: Someone needs to tell Michelle Goldberg just how unattractive she is.
She's cute the way she is. Maybe I'd change her hair a little, but she certainly has nothing to be ashamed of, unlike people who make mean comments about other people's physical appearance.
Palladian is back, and I for one bow to his superior wit and lyricism. "Althouse" will now again run at full speed.
Man, I wish Althouse was this clear in her blog posts. The part about comparing Palin and Obama is much more concise and clear than anything I've read on the blog, and Althouse is fearless in pursuing it.
I love the diavlogs with Megan McArdle, too. More, please.
All of the recent (in my lifetime) presidents seem to have been heavy exercisers.
I don't jog. Can't stand it.
But all the research I've ever seen is that physical exercise is directly related to brain function and mental sharpness.
It's *dumb* to think that someone's performance is going to be enhanced by forcing them to cram instead of go running, get their brain chemistry up, and *process* the information they've been cramming.
You know that if she was the boss she'd actively prepare *herself* by doing what she needed to get her head in the right place.
I'm not here to defend Palin. She needs to defend herself. Actually my mention of Palin was approval of a quote saying that she needs to get beyond complaining about the press. This is not a rabidly pro Palin group in the political sense. But we sure enjoy the consternation she creates in the liberal bubble.
"Afflict the comfortable . . . "
Continuing, gee, go Althouse. Awesome. Don't let people talk down to you without elaborating. Good.
Even farther, go! I hate emotional bullying. Good for you!
wv Malin- Barack Obama, the male Palin
Jesus. What a mismatch. An adult vs. a child. She's such a liberal stereotype. Shallow, bigoted, emotionally unstable, juvenile....the nervous facial movements and difficulty looking directly at the camera are annoying to watch and indicate she is uncomfortable in her skin. As she should be.
"She's cute the way she is. Maybe I'd change her hair a little, but she certainly has nothing to be ashamed of"
What's the ugliest part of your body?
What's the ugliest part of your body?
Some say your nose, some say your toes,
But I think it's your mind....
I think it's your miiiinnnddd
But the thing is we don't like Barack Obama or stupid pretentious twats (in the English sense, not the sexist sense) either.
When an Englishman means twat he says twat.
When an Englishman means twit he says twit.
To an Englishman with wit the two are separate, eh what?
Well, Althouse is used to confronting people, and Goldberg seems to be used to people who cave when she gets upset. That seems to be something that's always worked for her.
When that doesn't work with Althouse, all of a sudden Goldberg stops doing it. Independent of the content of the debate, that's a real insight, isn't it?
Again, Althouse in video is so much better than a lot of the blog posts. That's not meant as a put-down, just my subjective take on it. I don't like trying to read between the lines to figure out what Althouse thinks, and in video there isn't that element.
twat |twät|noun vulgar slang
• a woman's genitals.
• a person regarded as stupid or obnoxious.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: of unknown origin.
Almost everything good emerged from unknown places in the 17th century. At least in my book.
There really is no hope for dialogue between a doctrinaire lib like MG and a moderate-con like Althouse. MG kept making faces while Althouse spoke as if she could barely listen to her opinions.
"I don't like trying to read between the lines to figure out what Althouse thinks, and in video there isn't that element."
Me neither, but that's probably my autism-spectrum disorder talking.
Actually I think a lot of times when Althouse writes she doesn't actually know what she thinks. Writing is a way of thinking and reaching conclusions, for me. Maybe that's what she does here sometimes too.
BRAVO
Palladian: What's the ugliest part of your body?
What's the ugliest part of your body?
Some say your nose, some say your toes,
But I think it's your mind....
I don't think her mind is ugly either. Maybe if she were a little more adult about things. Not just using big words, but following through on her ideas and fleshing them out. It would make her seem more serious and professional and I think it would make her better able to defend herself.
That's what her look needs! A little more professionalism. I'm not sure what, but she needs an edge.
OMG-Pedro Almodovar is on Charlie Rose tonight.
Love him and his movies!
Palladian-
You too? Geez. How many of us are there?
You should've waited until she finished her tea.
The woman is obnoxious.
I agree with John Lynch on Ann's eloquence and clarity in unfolding her thoughts on the vlogs. I don't care for Palin, but Ann brought up some interesting stuff about how she's sort of an open canvas for conservatives to project onto, and how that's not necessarily a good core trait for politicians. Or the disparity between the scrutiny paid to similar 'canvas' candidates on either side of the political aisle. Michelle wouldn't agree to the Palin/Obama canvas comparison throughout the conversation but at the end suddenly weakly conceded. I was disappointed Michelle for the most part couldn't provide any response other than blanket dismissals or non-backed up assertions to most of the good conversational/debate topics Ann brought up.
John Lynch: Well, Althouse is used to confronting people, and Goldberg seems to be used to people who cave when she gets upset. That seems to be something that's always worked for her.
I agree. Beyond the political content of the discussion there was a compelling human spectacle going on.
I find it interesting that Althouse continues to insist that Sarah Palin is an empty slate for conservatives to project their fantasies on, and that we wouldn't like her if she weren't gorgeous.
What a load of crap!
I knew what she was doing in Alaska while she was doing it, because some conservative bloggers had already noted her victories over the state Republican chairman and Governor Murkowski.
Some of us already knew that she had sold the jet and was cutting the state's payroll and budget.
In other words, she wasn't a blank slate to me. I knew that she was a small-government conservative and liked her for that reason, before I had any idea what she looked like.
When she was announced as McCain's running mate I saw what she looked like and said, "Holy shit! And she looks great, too!"
I DO like her even more now than I did then. I've seen that she articulates conservative philosophy very well, and she can deliver a speech without a teleprompter. The lady can think and speak on her feet.
She's a person of substance and accomplishment. What's not [for me] to like?
To say she's the Republican Obama shows a touch of the disconnect from truth that Goldberg showed in spades.
Otherwise Althouse did a better job than I expected, given that she openly admitted she doesn't like Palin. She engaged the book and understood what it said, which Goldberg is clueless about.
Goldberg is a pretentious un-self-aware twit who fancies herself an intellectual. I hope Althouse can find a more worthy sparring partner for the next round.
ricpic:
To an Englishman with wit the two are separate, eh what?
Perhaps Sir Archy will enlighten us about that.
Hm... my daughter (who is not a fan of Twighlight AT ALL) says that if she's heard of Twighlight and hasn't heard of War and Peace... Twighlight wins.
I think she has a point.
And I'll say that the point she's making is about how the "elite" tend to prefer the gate-keeper exclusionary element of culture. If they didn't, it wouldn't be *elite*.
(She reads over my shoulder and says, "I don't even know what that means." So I added the "If they didn't..." line.)
She says... "You mean like "hipsters" tend to prefer bands that are extremely obscure just for the chance to laugh at people who don't know who they are?"
Yes... like that.
Now, I'm sure that she'd have heard of Tolstoy eventually because he's a sort of cultural fixture that everyone has generally heard of even if they've never read anything he wrote. At the moment my brilliant if rather new offspring is reading some 19th century anarchist philosopher that I'd certainly never heard of before. And as I said at first, she's not a fan of Twighlight and generally scoffs at "popular" culture.
But she's right in that accessibility and distribution wins.
There's also a good case here for repealing the 19th Amendment.
At 39:50 Michelle G. on Afghanistan dithering: "He just got these recommendations what a week ago? Two weeks ago?"
90 days and counting.
wv: untan = Althouse in Alaska
Sorry to keep spamming this thread, but there's so much here.
Obama's presidency is like a real The West Wing for liberals. It's like a TV show for them, in that the characters are more important the the plot. They are more interested in the fact their guy is in than in what he does. Goldberg is a very intelligent, well informed person, but doesn't seem to understand the true state of the country! We've lost almost 4 million jobs this year! Hello? That's kind of important. We're in a war in Afghanistan that isn't going very well. Hello? This stuff isn't going to go away in time for the next episode of The West Wing: Reality Edition
I don't care about how cool it is that Obama is there in the White House. What matters is what he does. And Althouse nails it that he doesn't seem to want to make tough decisions. But that's why the job exists! If a decision wasn't tough, it wouldn't get to his desk.
I voted for Barack Obama, because I though McCain would be worse, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize him. He's more about who he is than what he does, and that's a trait of a good Vice President. It's disastrous in a President.
mariner: I've seen that she articulates conservative philosophy very well... ...The lady can think and speak on her feet.
While my own personal experience with Palin mirrored yours very much, I could not agree with you on these two points. In my opinion she's way over her head on the national stage. To me it looks like she's faking when she's in an unplanned confrontational situation. Also, I wonder how fiscally conservative she'd be if she didn't have all that oil wealth and federal money to spend.
Michelle Golberg is such as shallow person. Is there anything that would make her interesting?
"Michelle Golberg is such as shallow person. Is there anything that would make her interesting?"
Thorazine.
Dust Bunny Queen: 2. You are both elitist snobs....."anyone intelligent"... ??!!?? as if it is within your lofty position to determine who is "intelligent". By what criterion.
Frankly....you both make me sick to my stomach.
I thought better of you, at least.
Althouse was clearly making fun of Michelle there. You should have watched more than four minutes, the first 15 minutes at least were awesome.
Oh, Ann, you're evil!
Who the fuck is this Goldberg? She can barely talk. She is a writer? She can barely express herself in complete sentences.
but she knows the words "bildungsroman" and "ersatz" and "simulacra"
She talks about Republicans copying what they don't understand in the Democrats... which I take to mean Obama. Michael Steele's color... Palin's celebrity... Her examples given.
Do conservatives not understand the appeal of Obama?
Is it possible that it's really the other way around? That the liberals don't understand the appeal of Palin?
"She can barely talk. She is a writer? She can barely express herself in complete sentences."
Well, you've caught us out!
The difference between a writer and a wit is that a writer takes three weeks to come up with the perfect response.
pm317 : She can barely express herself in complete sentences.
She did have someone talking over her. In Althouse's defense she was just trying to keep Michelle from changing the subject.
Without Althouse around I'm sure she can talk perfectly well. Here she was kind of like Palin in the Katie Couric interview.
Althouse is like Katie Couric and Michelle Goldberg is like Palin!
re: Afghanistan
"two weeks from now?"
A decision for the sake of decision is better than none, but skip that for now.
The GAME WILL CHANGE.
This is reality. There isn't three months from now, there is only now.
Anything relating to war requires action and reaction to *current* events... which will change. Because the enemy always gets a vote. It's not a situation that can be analyzed and controlled the way that static History can be analyzed and controlled. It's dynamic. Being *slow* is not a virtue.
"Reality has a liberal bias."
Uh huh.
A bravo performance by our brilliant law Prof!
I don't believe that Miss Goldberg actually read the book. Her criticisms were all vague and could have been said by any lefty who hates SP. I also loved how MG kept "drinking" from an obviously empty mug of tea, trying to hide from the eviceration she was receiving.
I knew what she was doing in Alaska while she was doing it, because some conservative bloggers had already noted her victories over the state Republican chairman and Governor Murkowski.
Some of us already knew that she had sold the jet and was cutting the state's payroll and budget.
>>>>>
Very true, the right wing blogosphere and punditry were following her for at least a year before she broke out with the McCain nomination. Just most of the MSM is nearly completely ignorant of what goes on outside the leftosphere.
Ann was relentless. Good for you, Althouse!
Goldberg looks pretty dumb. On the matter of literary value she let you get away with completely straw-manning what she said. After all, Obama may be to Palin as Tolstoy to Twighlight not because he's comparably great literature but because she's just that bad. Worse than Twighlight. In any case, Obama may not be Tolstoy but you must admit that his pen preceded his celebrity. One might simply have pointed out the years of publication compared to national political status.
Ahhhhhhhh, coulda-shoulda-woulda: "If only I had a copy at hand!" Getting flabbergasted by sophistry, condescension, and interruption might hurt Goldberg's chances of entering the television punditocracy. So much the better for her virtue. On the other hand, I hear the jerk store's running low on Althouse.
You know... I don't think that Hillary *lied* about snipers in Bosnia.
I think that she was talking about the security briefing, procedures, and possibility of snipers that made the event sort of exciting for her, frightening even, and different from what she was used to.
It wasn't accurate.
But I try to be fair and I imagine the sort of rush that someone visiting Iraq would feel on a plane doing their evasive landings and take offs because of the possibility of getting shot at. They don't wait to get shot at to do it and the possibility is real but have any of our transport planes actually been shot down?
I also can see those in charge of her safety scaring the crap out of her on purpose so that on the slim chance that something *did* happen, she'd obey their orders so they could keep her safe.
So, no... I don't think that Hillary lied so much as explained poorly in her attempt to simplify those events to something that didn't require long explanations and numerous qualifications.
Sarah Palin is my bulb of garlic against the vampires of urban "liberal" douchery.
Palladian, I totally love you, and I am stealing this to use again later.
anticlimactic. Granted, Michelle didn't have a lot to say, and she lost the argument miserably, but i thought she was quite nice, especially when confronted with a lot of oddly personal fury that was accompanied by anomalously flirtatious facial expressions. It must have been a bizarre experience for Michelle to be at the receiving end of that. I give her points. And Althouse, I do think you have a problem with younger women.
I love how Ann doesn't get exercised over politics, but does over literature!
Synova, agree with you. I am still amazed at how these dumb liberals like Goldberg make that Bosnia thing sound so sinister calling it a big lie and such. Fuck them.
Her defense of Obama was BTW pathetic. This is the best a liberal can do?!
I also like how showing that Palin is "lying" about Wooten and related events requires in depth combing through of all the documentation to find where her accounts diverge from those documents.
As far as I can tell Palin's misrepresentations about the Bridge to Nowhere are *nuanced* in the same sort of way that her sale of the Governor's private jet is *nuanced*.
She "put the plane on eBay." She did, but it got taken off again and sold through other channels. Saying she put it on eBay is a one-liner that doesn't fully describe the whole process of selling the aircraft. So?
I thought that nuance was supposed to be good.
"Granted, Michelle didn't have a lot to say, and she lost the argument miserably, but i thought she was quite nice, especially when confronted with a lot of oddly personal fury that was accompanied by anomalously flirtatious facial expressions."
kathleen, honey, you do realize that Althouse and Goldberg can't see each other during the dialog? It's a phone conversation with video being recorded via a webcam.
Palladian, honey, if that's the case, does it matter?
My British/Indian husband and I will be heading to Vermont for the Christmas holiday.
We are seriously thinking of buying an Alpulca Farm.
Crazy or fabulous?
"Synova, agree with you. I am still amazed at how these dumb liberals like Goldberg make that Bosnia thing sound so sinister calling it a big lie and such."
Liberals? I thought it was mostly conservatives.
But now I don't know. Did Obama's campaign go after Hillary about that? It seems like everyone was, I guess.
I'm starting to like Hillary more simply because I'm inclined to feel I ought to defend those stupidly accused. I generally thought I was the only one thinking that the particular factual inaccuracy of Hillary's statement, while it *was* inaccurate, was probably not a deliberate lie (deliberate lies get caught, and I function on the theory that Hillary is evil, not *dumb*) and people were sort of going overboard about it.
Vermont, yes, fabulous.
But Apaculco Farm? Not so sure.
They do all pinch their loaves in the same exact place so clean up should be minimal.
Also, the rare clumbers would have a fabulous place to run in The Green Mountains.
Totally VonTrapp family of 2010.
Professor Ann Althouse: Blonde pit bull
"We are seriously thinking of buying an Alpulca Farm.
Crazy or fabulous?"
You just sprained my brain Titus.
I absolutely can not imagine you with Alpaca poo on your Wellingtons.
You're talking - Buy a share in an alpaca farm run by other people who will wear the boots and alpaca poo, right?
That could possibly be fabulous, I suppose.
Don't even consider liking Hilary Novers.
She is the devil.
By the way, welcome back Palladian. Love you to death. Big Hugs directed your way.
Is everyone excited about the movie Nine and Pedro Almodovar's new tour de force, starring Penolope,natch.
I do wish there was a little more cleavage in this bloggingheads.
Synova, you forget that I grew up in the farmland on Wisconsin and my parents actually own a farm in Lodi, Wisconsin.
I may sound all urban and fabulous but when it comes right down to it I am a farmers daughter.
Both parents came from Dairy Farmers. One of their homes actually had an outhouse-I am serious. I used it many times in my youth.
I am tired of the corporate world. Yes, the six figure plus salary, with stock options and 35% annual bonus is nice but so what? What does it get me? Another Prada jacket? Big fricking deal. My job is totally boring. And I am approaching 40 and I have almost 20 years in the corporate world. I seen it, did it, and am over it.
I think I am ready to go back to my roots.
How old is Goldberg?
Pretty parochial.
Michelle's big mistake was calling Althouse a Conservative at 5:10. I think that's when Althouse begins treating her as an adversary. Althouse even takes a minute to make absolutely sure she heard Michelle correctly.
If Michelle wanted to talk more she probably shouldn't have been drinking tea when Althouse gave her the opportunity to say something. They have only a limited time together and it's rude for her to take sips when it's her turn to speak.
Apaculco... Acapulcos... Palacas... Alpacas!
The Bosnia thing happened during the Dem primary and Obots (liberals) and the media lapdogs hung on to it for dear life because she didn't really give them a lot to go after.
Well that makes sense then, Titus. I was concerned that you wouldn't have a realistic idea of what you're getting into but if you grew up with it (and the cold) then you know all about morning chores in January.
And of course, alpacas are the most fabulous of any farm animal out there.
Wow:
"If not unbelievable, then her psychology is so different than that of, kind of, anyone I've ever encountered..."
Michelle, you need to get out more. A LOT more!
And you both missed something very significant regarding Palin's lack of introspection and the "surprise" of it: people in conservative circles were talking about Palin for months before her selection. Just going by memory, I think it was early spring, or even earlier. What a story--what a resume! She took on the corrupt elements in her own party and beat them. What could be better than that. What was a surprise that McCain--McCain!!--would actually make such a selection.
wv: ineption - a characteristic that MG and her guy in office both share.
Writing is a way of thinking and reaching conclusions, for me. Maybe that's what she does here sometimes too.
Call me crazy, but I distinctly remember Ann Althouse describing this blog, in and from its early days and thereafter, though both more infrequently and less explicitly in the past couple of years, as "living freely in writing."
wv: eonspeci
Well, ha ha.
"And you both missed something very significant regarding Palin's lack of introspection and the "surprise" of it: people in conservative circles were talking about Palin for months before her selection."
There is an interview of her talking about oil and gas policy at some governor's conference well before she was chosen by McCain where the interviewer asks her if she'd run for either President or VP... I don't recall, but it was one or the other. Her laugh in response seemed genuine to me. I don't think she was expecting it NOW but it certainly wasn't her first exposure to the idea.
Palladian: ROFL!!!! (your 9:47pm)
You really do add your own unique touch to this place...
She [Hillary] is the devil.
oh my! I didn't think I was among the infidels, non-believers.
I agree with your final conclusion re. the empty slates upon which partisans project their hopes, but I'd include George W. Bush in that group.
And I will sew Acapulco shit and sell it on Althouse.
It will be fab.
Much less itchier (is that a word) than lamb you know.
Oh and I will hire hot Mexican immigrants to clean up the shit, natch.
Now I have to find a job for my Indain/British husband on the farm.
He is Indian and British and urban.
And technical, natch.
You don't see many Indians from India in the country in the US. They congregate to the city. Why is that? I asked him that. He told me there are many rural Indians in India but not in the US. MMMM. Let's figure that out.
Maybe we could develop an Aculpoco call line database. He would be great at that. Also, answering phones, natch. And troubleshooting.
I wasn't gainsaying Palladian's comment, but rather augmenting it, to be clear.
Also, I'm thinking it's time to get rid of the whole reader_iam thing, since it seems both quaint and ridiculous in an age in which early-in-life memoirs published for political purposes are now considered either "a work of literature" or an indispensable handbook for a bright future, or whatever.
Committed reader_[that]iam of all sorts of on-point things, there comes a point at which there's, well, no point any more.
The closing stuff about looks was preposterous! Completely lame!
Look, take all the people who like Palin. Who do they love even more?
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Margaret Thatcher, that's who!
Nothing wrong with her, of course, but nobody ever suspected her of having been a beauty contestant in her youth. And my experience is the same as mariner's: I heard all this favorable stuff about Palin before I had the slightest idea of how she looked.
Goldberg wrote a laughably false book about how the scary Christian fundies were taking over the nation back in 2006.
I think it would be instructive to take the scare-tactic wording from its website and turn it around 180 degrees with a few minor edits [original wording in brackets]:
In Kingdom Coming, Goldberg demonstrates how an increasingly bellicose socialism[fundamentalism] is gaining traction throughout our national life, taking us on a tour of the parallel left[right]-wing socialist[evangelical] culture that is buoyed by Democratic[Republican] political patronage. Deep within the blue[red] zones of a divided America, we meet union thugs[military veterans] pledging to seize the nation in "The Workers of the World's"[Christ’s] name, perfidious congressmen courting the confidence of neo-trotskyites[confederates] and proponents of socialism[theocracy], and leaders of federally funded programs offering bigger government[Jesus] as the solution to the country’s social problems.
Either, the problem wasn't as bad three years ago as she describes in her book, or the minions of The One are just as fanatical and intent on reshaping American polity as she fears the religious right are.
Her inability to hear the echoes of what she fears from the right being sounded by those demanding massive social change on the left would be astounding, but it's not.
She seems like someone who has grown up in a lefty bubble, went to school in a lefty bubble (UC Berkeley), chose a lefty profession (feminist writer/journalist), and resides in one of the leftiest sections of a lefty city.
She's certain that only narrow minded fundies would admire Palin, or anyone like her. Yet the degree with which Goldberg's flabbergasted by the suggestion that Palin's memoir is similar in kind to Obama's first memoir illustrates Goldberg's extremely limited worldview.
Listening to her there are but two conclusions to draw, she's either a self-deluding fool, or a mendacious bigot.
I think Althouse won the argument handily. How could she not? She's better looking and blonde to boot....If you ever wondered how Communism was able to flourish and thrive for generations, check out Michelle. Total blue light filters. Beatrice Webb witnessing the digging of the White Sea Canal. I don't think she even noticed the Rev. Wright or Bill Ayers except to dismiss those who did as bigots. Procrastination? He's pondering the nuances. You dummies don't understand nuances. There are no nuances to Palin. The dispute with Trooper Wooten was a stark, Manichean struggle, and Palin was on the side of evil. ...I like and admire Tina Fey. Nonetheless, I would be in no great hurry to see her play Ophelia. Ditto with Sarah Palin. She's terrific in her present role. She's selling not just a lot of books but also herself and her values. She's good at it--much better than Obama who to date has only succeeded in selling himself.
Ann used the term "patronizing" to describe the treatment of Palin during the campaign. This term also aptly describes the facial expressions and tone of Michelle Goldberg during about 95% of the discussion.
I've met so many people like Goldberg in my life. They are absolutely convinced that they are smarter than you, wiser than you, and more insightful than you.
My guess is that Ann Althouse is one of probably about five conservative minded people she meets each year ... or perhaps decade.
It saddens me that Sarah Palin's worst enemies will be women like Goldberg.
Most amazingly ridiculous, oxymoronic MG claim:
Reality has a liberal bias.
Yeah, right.
WV:andwaylo
The amount the above MG comment differs from reality.
Michelle Goldberg just couldn't stop putting that tea bag into her mouth, long after she'd run out of actual tea. What is one to make of this?
But I think it's your mind....
Where is my mind?
I'm with Mariner. I'd heard about her and was impressed long before the nomination. If she wasn't qualified, none of them were (entirely possible).
I'm suspicious, though, like Jason. I detect a populist streak. Potential "compassionate" conservative.
Palladian: If you think a hair-flipping whinging New York Jew class-ist bigot saying the word "nuance" repeatedly is an ADULT discussion, by all means, go elsewhere and have it. I'll stay here with the snarky CHILDREN. Much, much less painful.
"New York Jew"? Real nice.
Yeah, she says the word "nuance all the time. But Althouse is repeating the word of the season from the GOP talking points, "dithering".
You folks didn't seem as concerned when Bush's policy for Afghanistan and Pakistan was declared a failure by his own White House's assessment. I don't have access to the information Obama does, so I'll just have to wait and see and judge his decisions when I see how they work out. As I did with Bush.
Palin...isn't currently destroying our economy, our security and our liberty.
Any opponant of any president can always say, "I hate him because he's destroying the economy, our security and our liberty."
Maybe because in some areas they all do some harm in some parts of all of those areas. No president in my lifetime, however, did as much damage in all of those areas as George W. Bush.
If I went into a coma for 10 years, woke up not knowing who the president is or a damn thing that's going on in the world, and jumped on the compuater to post, "The president is awful. He's shredding the Constitution, destroying our liberties, wrecking the economy, and making America less secure! How can anyone support this president!?", between 30-50% of America would agree with me. So what does that prove?
I saw the disaster Bush left us in with my own eyes, whereas I don't know what the full picture will look like when Obama's up for re-election.
I agree with his critics on some issues, like health care. But the main problem there is that we have single-party rule. And who's fault is that? The people were pissed at the GOP for good reason, and now we'll go too far in another direction and suffer the consequences until things hopefully balance out more again. I pin the blame on the Republican Party.
"Oh and I will hire hot Mexican immigrants to clean up the shit, natch."
Titus
On my farm we always hire Homosexuals to clean up the shit, natch, because they have such an affinity for it, I mean just look where they want to park their Johnsons.
Hey,this bigot game is fun.
RALEIGH, N.C. – The U.S. Army plans to prevent media from covering Sarah Palin's appearance at Fort Bragg, fearing the event will turn into political grandstanding against President Barack Obama, officials said Thursday.
There's the stirrings of a jacquerie in the air and our arristos are trying to tamp it down.
The movement is amorphous and decentralized but Palin makes a good figurehead for the great unwashed and the focus for reaction by the ruling class.
Reformed Jews are about as religious as Unitarians.
I had an old roommate who was always saying things like "my mom and I have deemed shrimp kosher for passover". Ok. Sounds fine to me!
On being "bored" with Palin, I'm kind of bored with Palin herself. (it probably doesn't help that one of my friends emails or texts or facebooks posts about her at least 2 or 3 times a week). I find the hatred of her fascinating, though.
Lars, why dont you and your clockwork buddies do some old fashioned ass-kicking?
No time to listen to podcast quite yet but I'm so glad you've finally got an "Obama is like Sarah Palin" tag. Hate to say I told you so. :)
i found this very boring ... not much interesting conversation; last time you let her get away w/ so much, this time you called her on it and got exercised as well; i think you scared the shit out of her when you started to call her on some of her more bogus and baseless claims -- 'reality has a liberal slant' was pretty ridiculous. i was really impressed with how you talked her down from quitting.
They need to find some other people for you to debate .... this was pretty pointless.
I wish I had time to watch the episode. Life is time-consuming today.
These two were like two ships passing in the night. Neither one had any influence over the other one. Will they learn from this encounter? The Professor learned how frustrating it is to talk intelligently about real news stories with a Ideologue that has only wishful thinking that none of the events happened.Goldberg is a Chauvinist for Obama and what he represents to her.She refused to be confused with facts of what is happening. Goldberg learned that thoughtful posturing is not doing anything, Could that be true? Because if it is, then her whole life has no meaning to anyone at all. Goldberg actually gained my sympathy, although there is no doubt that she despises my existence. Bottom line is that it will take a Palin fighter with a good attitude to survive in the shark infested waters of Government News Agencies run by Goldberg types and an unlimited Bribes for votes system in DC. Also Sarah is the only GOP candidate that has any cred in resisting the bribes for votes system in DC. Her victory will be like Jackson's victory defeating the Federalist/National Republican Alliance's hold on Federal powers in 1828.
Five minutes was all I could take. What a stinking pile of elitist bullshit.
"The level of dispute among intelligent people?"
This blogging heads reminds me of two high school girls sitting at the "smart girls table" cracking about a popular cheerleader who they do not know, but assume is stupid or evil simply because she is a cheerleader.
Do you two know how you sound to regular folks?
BTW, I think Goldberg is devastatingly cute.
She should go up to Wasilla and have Palin get her one of those Big Goyische men who look like they are straight off of the Brawny package.
Titus, your cue....
The "Who's the better feminist?" part of the discussion was truly vile.
Fuck feminism.
I like Palin precisely because she doesn't seem to give a shit about feminism.
I want to start a reality show where Michelle Goldberg has to live in a suburb of Oklahoma City for a year and work a real job.
The comments over at Bloggingheads are interesting. Someone didn't know who Andy Kauffman was.
I am so old.
I want to start a reality show where Michelle Goldberg has to live in a suburb of Oklahoma City for a year and work a real job.
While that would be highly interesting, I would prefer that she has to live and work a real job in Oklahoma City, or El Paso, or Alberqurque indefinitely. It would be nice to see that result.
The comments over at Bloggingheads are interesting. Someone didn't know who Andy Kauffman was.
Sigh
Why is it that whenever -- WHENEVER! -- I check out a discussion of Palin, the pro-Palin side ALWAYS shifts the discussion to a critique of President Barack Obama?"
Because the arguments against Palin are never substantive on issues-- they're that she's inexperienced, never stayed in a job that long, just got by on looks and hiring preferences, etc. And somehow that all brings Obama to mind...
You're not old, MM, you're vintage!
Palladian - Glad to see you back, no one can turn a phrase like you.
Why are there 10,000 comments in this thread about whether Michelle Goldberg is attractive?
This blog has often embedded Bloggingheads diavlogs with male diavloggers; I don't remember any comments about their attractiveness.
I heard all this favorable stuff about Palin before I had the slightest idea of how she looked.
OK, but the people from whom you were hearing all that favorable stuff had probably seen how she looked. I mean, regular readers of this blog had already seen what she looked like before she was announced as the running mate.
blake:
I'm suspicious, though, like Jason. I detect a populist streak. Potential "compassionate" conservative.
The very term "populist" is elitist and condescending.
It implies that we should dismiss without further thought the views of most people, simply because most people hold them.
And as you know, most people are not very smart and not very well educated. Who would pay attention to what THEY believe, anyway? They couldn't possibly be right about the really important things.
OTOH maybe it's just that the WRONG people hold those views.
After all we care very much what illiterate inner-city people and illegal immigrants think (as long as what they're thinking is "Vote Democrat").
jaltcoh:
You really ARE clueless aren't you?
Althouse was clearly making fun of Michelle there. You should have watched more than four minutes, the first 15 minutes at least were awesome.
@Jason. In my very weak defense, I was drinking, and immediately realized my egregious error. Knee jerk reaction...heavy on the jerk. This morning...I'm just drinking coffee. :-D
I watched the entire thing and am very impressed.
Althouse took a side that she wasn't completely "into" and did a marvelous job of debating and arguing the question. This is what good debaters do and what good lawyers do as well. I have never taken a law class but I imagine that Althouse's students learn a great deal and are challenged to actually think for themselves.
It was revealing when Michelle admitted that she was completely unable to understand the thinking of someone like Palin and that she had never met anyone like her.
I believe someone called her bubble girl and this is really a part of the problem of the elite liberals. They do isolate themselves from others who don't think in lockstep and build unfair stereotypes in thier minds of the strange natives who are outside of their bubble universe.
This is also why the Tea Party movement is so startling and unfathomable to them. They do dismiss this movement and the Palin supporters at their own peril.
But the main problem there is that we have single-party rule. And who's fault is that? The people were pissed at the GOP for good reason, and now we'll go too far in another direction and suffer the consequences until things hopefully balance out more again.
Well that is true enough.
I pin the blame on the Republican Party.
They are to blame for their mistakes, that doesn’t let the dem’s of the hook for theirs.
I respect how Althouse handles the interview. I could only watch snippets, but she showed how Goldberg is a typical unreflective doctrinaire liberal who doesn't even try to "empathize" with others from backgrounds different than her own. She is an elitist socialite and thinks not only that everyone should be and think like her, but that this is even possible.
Pretty boring. The one "are you listening to what your mouth is saying" moment was when Goldberg talked about how important it was to get "deep and petty" into the details of small-town politics when it came to Palin.
Really Michelle? That's where you go when you get all nuanced and thoughtful?
I didn't watch, because I've seen Goldberg's schtick before. Let me guess, she can't conceive any good faith in the people who's arguments she opposes. You might as well debate a rock.
OH NO! I didn't expect this diavlog to be out until today! 170+ comments already. I think I have just enough time to watch this before going out -- let me see what the fuss was about!
Cheers,
Victoria
ComradeX,
Well, yes. It was a train wreck, and I just had to watch.
Never again.
My God, the level of discomfort Michelle Goldberg has in this diavlog is astounding. She is more fidgety that a 4 year-old ring bearer in his first rented kiddie tux.
She is also hanging for dear life on that mug with her herbal tea (Lord, how cliché -- it would be like a conservative clinging his guns...).
And call me Alannis Morrisette, but I do believe she is a teabagger.
I only do loose tea (strong builders tea, at that).
Cheers,
Victoria
wv: unlies!!
Sounds like something Ann would be trying to do: unlying about Sarah Palin.
While no one will read this far down. I too must voice my disappointment with Bloggingheads that Althouse was the best they could do. At least they could have found someone who is a luke warm supporter. Althouse is clearly NOT even that. Nor during the "debate" does she come even close. Just another 2 people bashing Sarah Palin.
I had to turn is off roughly 32 min in, when Michelle made the blanket statement that "Barack is doing a great job as President". Obviously this woman's head is in the sand.
'nough said.
Now I know what an ant (MG) must feel like under an acetelyne torch (AA)...
Very nice comparison with "Dreams of my Father", Ann (catching Goldberg off-guard, and me too!). It goes to your theory that Palin is following a similar route to Obama.
It's one thing to read Ann Althouse in her blog, whose conclusions are sometimes to challenge her commenters.
But if you've never seen her in action in a diavlog, you'll never understand just how well she can opine on a topic. (Minute 7:52)
I feel like inviting a body language specialist to review Goldberg's tics. Did you notice how she constantly touches her hair? A sign of aggression. They say it masks a human impulse to slap or punch the person they are currently opposing.
Notice it in action (twice) when Ann mentions that "even now a year into his [Obama's] presidency he's not clear about what he's doing." It's a quick, irritated run through hair with fingers gesture that speaks of inner hostility.
Thank goodness this was cam-jobbie. ;)
You know (shocker!) I kinda disagree with Ann's opinion of Dreams from my Father being merely a creative writing piece, and not good effort per se.
I happened to admire DFMF, and thought the level of writing displayed by Obama was proficient and coolly elegant (for a politician).
That's the caveat, of course.
I think Palin's is much more down-to-earth, albeit not exactly a conversational tone. It reminds me of Edith Hamilton's "Mythology" (to bring up totally inadequate literary references, like Goldberg did with "War and Peace").
Palin seems to realise her life story is exceptional, and whilst she herself may seem ordinary, she doesn't compromise on the extraordinariness of her upbringing, as it relates to the normal late 20th century American experience.
This is something that really must grate on progressives. The fact that she doesn't cutesify the truth, nor does she agrandise herself because of it. It's simply a tale with imagery that few people could write about in their own lives.
"I'm bored with this conversation. I don't want to talk about this."
A five-year old going, lalalalala, I can't hear YOUU.
Ohhhhhhhh.
Ann is acting like a true conservative when she calls out Goldberg for bailing when they, in turn, get the same kind of emotional treatment on a political topic, that they formerly used to give.
This of course reminds me of the whole "Dissent is patriotism" of yesterday, compared to "Why don't you support the President today?" of the Tea Party Movement.
Incidentally, I don't really think Ann is a true conservative, but she is doing a gangbusters job of articulating our argument about "push back", and then getting monumentally under Goldberg's skin. She must know on some level that the shoe is on the other foot now.
We are the opposition. They are the Establishment.
Welcome to the mutiny, liberals. This is how it feels like to HAVE to defend your principles without resorting to cheap shots.
Does it continue? Does Goldberg bail? I can't wait to see, as there are 50 some minutes there.
When Goldberg starts to articulate why she feels Obama's book is more nuanced, which FINALLY Althouse pried from her by vociferously challenging her (good job), we arrive at one of the underlying reasons why progressives cannot stand Palin.
She knows who she is. She at no time seems to doubt her origins, her personal tenets, and later, her political growth is more about principled certitude than a sloughing off of skin to find a nakedness underneath (as in the case with Obama).
President Obama gives me the vibe that he is still exploring the various parts of who he is. He may die without really coming to grips with what life means or who he is (curiously, I find his wife to be much more like Palin in this regard -- she knows exactly who she is).
This kind of lack of certitude (which is a draconian quality, of course, which liberals hate) is vastly appealing to those who feel life isn't about ultimate knowledge, but constant searching.
I begin to understand more and more why Palin pushes the wrong button on our honourable opponents.
"Why are there 10,000 comments in this thread about whether Michelle Goldberg is attractive?"
Mickey Kaus is a stone cold hairy Jewish fox.
Robert Wright is the only white man that makes me wet.
There, happy?
Argh, must dash as it's a family celebration today. But I'll finish it later. Very jarring diavlog. I happen to like it for the dynamics in action!
(Minute 17)
wv: peststro!
vbspurs:
Very nice comparison with "Dreams of my Father", Ann (catching Goldberg off-guard, and me too!). It goes to your theory that Palin is following a similar route to Obama.
I hope you don't agree with that tripe.
Obama's route was to use his Daley machine connections to be nominated for office, then use questionable tactics to disqualify opponents, then do nothing except make speeches once "elected".
Palin's route was to run for office without any party support (even in spite of party opposition), get elected by real-live people, and actually accomplish things once in office.
Yep, those are exactly the same.
Well, you have to admit Michelle is a genuine tea-bagger.
But I'm still curious how so much air can be compressed into one head. I suspect N.O.W. implanted a valve in the back of her skull.
Althouse should have her own television program. She's adorable and smart.
Ann asks would we care about Sarah if she wasn't pretty, keeping with her theme of Sarah is the conservatives Obama, would we care about Obama if he wasn't ___________ ?
Wow, the professor really had her ginger up. For a non-Palinophile she was quite passionate -- she didn't let Goldberg get a word in edgewise for the first ten minutes, talking over her almost all the time. It's clear who the alpha female is in that duo.
then use questionable tactics to disqualify opponents
Interesting to find an Obama opponent describe the techniques used to detect faked voter registrations as "questionable." Verifying voter signatures on nominating petitions just doesn't seem "questionable" to me.
vbspurs wrote: Very nice comparison with "Dreams of my Father", Ann (catching Goldberg off-guard, and me too!)
I thought the same thing. Goldberg was clearly unable to deal with the comparison, except in the most vague terms. Maybe it was a little unfair to her to have to remember something about Obama's book. That effort may have been why she wanted to bail so quickly. But she had a choice. She could have been honest about not remembering much about Dreams of my Father. Instead she tried to fake her way past a blanket claim of its greatness.
Goldberg needs to work on her literary criticism. "Dreams of My Father is great because I'm nuanced and thoughtful" is just too obvious.
Experienced book reviewers know how to say "I'm nuanced and thoughtful" using a lot more words. And, even, direct references to the book they're talking about.
jaltcoh:
You really ARE clueless aren't you?
I'm clueless about what you're referring to in that comment. Please explain.
"Why are there 10,000 comments in this thread about whether Michelle Goldberg is attractive?"
Mickey Kaus is a stone cold hairy Jewish fox.
Robert Wright is the only white man that makes me wet.
There, happy?
Just 9,998 left to go.
You know... I don't think that Hillary *lied* about snipers in Bosnia.
No, she "just said some things that weren't in keeping with what [she] knew to be the case..it just didn't jibe with what [she]...knew to be the truth."
But she didn't lie. I mean lying is when you ... um ...
Heh, I really enjoyed how you took MG to task. I don't know why it's so hard for her just to say "I just like Obama and I dislike her, so I'm going to invent reasons why the former's personal memoir is so fantastic and the latter is so insipid."
The responses coming out of her mouth just sounded like that coming from my young nephews. She's just inventing stuff up, like how she says that she's never met anyone with a mindset quite like Palin's. Really? Didn't she write several books about social conservatives?
Mariner,
The very term "populist" is elitist and condescending.
Eh. Going back to the late 19th century, it seems to me that "populists" are basically statists. We are where we are because people think the government needs to DO something about something.
O'Reilly and Huckabee, for example, are not small government types. They're all for government invention if it helps "the folks".
If that's elitist and/or condescending, I can deal with that. I just want weak governments. I really don't care what other people want.
Hey, my first comment deleted from Althouse! That I realize anyway.
Eh, so my comment about M Goldberg may have been a bit impolitic. But, for the record, it has nothing to do with her gender (which I'm sure is why Althouse deleted it) but rather the combination of her ugly ideas about the world and her constant preening before the webcam.
jaltcoh,
OK, explain Maggie then.
Blue@9,
"She's just inventing stuff up, like how she says that she's never met anyone with a mindset quite like Palin's. Really? Didn't she write several books about social conservatives?"
Ummm, you're missing something: you don't have to know any social conservatives, or even have met any, to write about them. Bless me, what do they teach them at J-school these days???
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