Joe Wilson said it:
But Obama kinda did too. And this — "a lie, plain and simple" — came before Joe Wilson's "you lie":
Obviously, Obama was the official speaker, and it's rude to yell something at the speaker. But Obama was guilty of disrespecting his critics by labeling their arguments nothing but a lie and — after getting a standing ovation for it — moving on.
Wilson's little outburst got a lot of attention, and that has lessened the amount of discussion of the actual content of Obama's speech itself. But I suppose that Obama supporters are using it to try to paint all the critics of the proposed legislation as louts to be dismissed out of hand.
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219 comments:
1 – 200 of 219 Newer› Newest»Not all of the critics. . . juts the ones in congress.
This seems to me to be one of those things that is going over as a disaster with the elite but will go over much better with the hoi polloi.
The guy made a big mistake apologizing for what he did, though.
And, again, if this is what people insist on discussing, Obama accomplished less than nothing tonight.
The problem is that now Wilson's comment becomes the focus of the night, and not Obama's speech (and the weaknesses of it and the health care plan)
The lack of face to face Q&A in our system has produced a class of pompous, evasive, windbags.
We could use more of the English P.M. Q&A approach here to get the discussion focused.
As it is now, the press acts as interlocutor, and does a horrible job of it.
Our politicians don’t ever have to actually say anything cogent or coherent.
I agree. . . if he hadn't apologized it could have been Plain/Wilson 2012.
Too bad. . .
"The lack of face to face Q&A in our system has produced a class of pompous, evasive, windbags."
So Wilson is a champion of a more sophisticated democratic process?
Best. One. Yet.
And, again, if this is what people insist on discussing, Obama accomplished less than nothing tonight.
Agree. If tomorrow's conversation is "did he or didn't he lie" then Obama will have been pulled off message.
And Wilson should not have apologized. Righteous indignation at being lied to would have played well in the real world.
Ah, someone who automatically equates all things British with all things more sophisticated (as opposed to merely healthier for democracy).
Is that your point then? British sophistication?
Joe Wilson is my Congressman. I have met him several times. He is by and large a rather quiet and reserved guy (for a politician) who isn't likely to shout someone down in any context, let alone the President in a joint session of Congress.
It's really too bad Joe did this. Had he not, maybe the lack of decorum of Obama's calling his opponents liars would be the story.
Of course politicians lie all the time. That is why it is a breach of decorum to say so.
Is that your point then? British sophistication?
Our betters understand that all things European are more sophisticated. You obviously didn't get the memo.
John Podhoretz - 09.09.2009 - 10:39 PM
Joe Wilson, the Republican congressman who interrupted Barack Obama’s speech by yelling out “You lie,” deserves censure. There is no excuse for such conduct. That said, he is about to become a folk hero.
Great minds think alike (even though Jennifer Rubin is better).
And sorry, Cedarford. Rubin is a Jew.
When I did my 1L summer at a small employment firm in Cleveland, one of the firm's legends was the partner who was actually arrested for assault for punching a union lawyer during a deposition. Going to the East Coast elite schools, I thought this was a horrible thing to do, and must have been terrible for the firm's reputation. They then explained that it was actually great for their reputation among prospective clients, who always really want to punch the union reps and are glad that their lawyers had the balls to finally do it.
Heckling of Democrats, whether during a joint session or at town hall meetings, draws similar reactions.
Meanwhile, with Obama's "This is a lie" line, I couldn't help but think of Umbridge's identical line from Harry Potter 5 (start at 6:30 in the linked clip).
Had he not, maybe the lack of decorum of Obama's calling his opponents liars would be the story.
Yeah, I'm sure the MSM would totally have picked up on that.
I want to add that I never liked this Joe Wilson fellow. That whole yellow cake thing in Niger really was unseemly. And poor Scooter Libby.
But now that he is heckling Obama, I am a big fan.
It was tacky, but tacky is something people like. I think his apologies should be specific. Obama was indeed lying at the time. The democrats voted down the SAVE provision in the bill, so there is indeed no enforcement provision to keep health insurance reform from supporting illegal aliens. The bill doesn't explicitly provide for them, but the effect is the same, and everyone in the room, including Obama, knew what Obama was saying was a lie.
Does McCain have legitimacy in this beyond that he catches the limelight by acting above it all?
Wait, Wilson apologized? What a wuss. People will forgive a rude outburst before they will forgive a wuss every time.
"Is that your point then? British sophistication?"
I thought the Brits were the ones who chased each other around Parliament with the Royal Mace.
The fact is that as the healthcare legislation is currently devised, illegal aliens will be covered. They may not be "covered" in name but they will be in fact. The Democrats' disingenuous shell game will be exposed if/when reform is passed and - whaddya know? - illegal aliens manage to get public coverage. Wilson may have told the truth at the wrong moment, but at least he did tell the truth.
Could poor Wilson have been influenced by a sub-conscious vibration hitting DC from millions of people shouting "You Lie" at their TV screens all over America? No matter Wilson's excuse or the fact that when Obama's mouth is moving, he is lying, it is never nice to point out another person's faults in public like that.
We need to stand by Obama, he's our Commander-in-Chief. We may not agree with him -but he is our President.
And like Bush and Clinton, he knows a lot more than we average citizens. Sigh, the burden he carries as leader of the Free World. Who is this congressman to question him?
So, I stand with the liberals. We need to respect his authority.
Had Obama been on his game, he would have stopped mid-speech and uttered Steve Martin's classic line to a heckler:
I remember my first beer.
Just another reason Obama is lame.
"Joe Wilson is my Congressman. I have met him several times. He is by and large a rather quiet and reserved guy (for a politician) who isn't likely to shout someone down in any context, let alone the President in a joint session of Congress."
This is good! If Obama pushed nice guy Joe over the edge. . . then by God he must be the EWORST PRESIDENT EVER.
I would go with this one.
Jesus, Phos. Chill out. Jimmy Carter was the worst president ever.
We need to stand by Obama, he's our Commander-in-Chief. We may not agree with him -but he is our President.
When dealing with external matters such as foreign relations or wars it is important that Americans stand together. Domestically, Obama can suck it.
Seven:
I remember seeing Martin use that line on a heckler.."I remember when I had first beer".
It was at The Latin Casino in NJ for a company Xmas party in '77 or '78. I recall it was the week Bing Crosby died and the other act was Donna Summers. She sang a sexy White Christmas as a tribute.
"Ah, someone who automatically equates all things British with all things more sophisticated (as opposed to merely healthier for democracy)."
Excellent.
But of course it's LESS sophistication that is wanted, right? More heckling makes abteer democracy, and Joe Wilson is on the vanguard of this exciting new movement.
More heckling makes a better democracy. Yes. Without question.
Also, slow down on your typing, dude. Blogger even has a spell check function.
So here is to Bing Crosby and White Christmas (only 60 degrees here in PA) so it is not far off.
And Happy Feet and Donna Summer.
The lack of face to face Q&A in our system has produced a class of pompous, evasive, windbags.
We could use more of the English P.M. Q&A approach here to get the discussion focused.
Werd. If Obama would have addressed the comment he could have cemented this entire debate, and probably cemented the legislation he has in mind. Other than that I thought the speech was great, the only one from Obama I've ever really connected to.
"More heckling makes a better democracy. Yes. Without question."
Well then the current GOP is the most democratic organization ever!!
Congratulations all around.
Now you've got me singing Hot Stuff.
Hot hot hot hot stuuuufff.
Phos, while I realize that it is *unusual* for a Representative to tell the truth during a joint session of Congress, it isn't actually cause for getting your panties in a bunch.
Yes, Obama lied. Yes, Wilson yelled "liar!" at him afterwards. Trust me, Obama will have ample opportunities to lie again when the scary Mr. Wilson isn't around to yell at him. There is no cause for panic.
I almost get your point, phos. Maybe you could repeat a few more times? It's not quite clear.
Meanwhile, all over America, Democrats are clutching their pearls at the thought of someone calling their President a liar.
Uhhh, the difference is that people talking up death panels are actual liars, and Obama saying that illegals won't be covered isn't a lie.
http://factcheck.org/2009/08/seven-falsehoods-about-health-care/
There's also the whole part about breaking rules and disrespecting the president, but whatever.
I have to admit, though, I'm bitterly disappointed. I would have thought for sure that by now someone would have dug up an example of a congressman calling Lincoln a "poltroon" in an open session of congress. Or maybe Hayes was called a "scalawag".
But nothing.
Your tu quoque, usually so sharp, is in disrepair.
For shame.
Democracy has traditionally sprung from the middle class. Socialism always springs from a weird hothouse relationship between resentful academics (Marx), the wealthy (Engels), and a segment of poor people who are happy to take handouts even if it ultimately means a lower social standard of living.
If Obama would have addressed the comment he could have cemented this entire debate
He couldn't address the comment because the facts do not support his statement.
Illegals will receive care under the plan because the Dems refuse to include any residency/citizenship verification process.
"Phos, while I realize that it is *unusual* for a Representative to tell the truth during a joint session of Congress, it isn't actually cause for getting your panties in a bunch."
This was the first one out of the box: "Why so sensitive?"
As I said, it will probably work.
Zach -- Bad night? You are more shrill than even usual.
I love the factcheck.org reference. Democraticunderground is down?
"The precedents of the House allow a wide latitude in criticism of the President, other executive officials, and the government itself. However, it is not permissible to use language that is personally offensive to the President, such as referring to him as a “hypocrite” or a “liar.”"
http://rules-republicans.house.gov/Educational/Read.aspx?ID=5
The asshole was classless: Much like 99% of the assholes here.
Polls show Obama won big time
Two polls that matter show President Barack Obama had a strong showing with the American people Wednesday night.
His passionate speech on the absolute need for health care reform resonated with many.
-- The CBS News poll said Obama's approval rating soared from 62 percent to 69 percent after the speech.
-- A CNN poll said 68 percent of its respondents gave a thumbs up to the speech. Only 8 percent were negative.
Now Obama must build on the strength of his good speech to get real health care reform passed in Congress.
The moment of success he created Wednesday night should not be allowed to wither and die in Washington.
Zach, you are equating "the bill doesn't allocate money for treating illegals" with "illegals won't be treated". There is no provision in the bill for determining residency status prior to granting treatment. Democrats have specifically excluded any such requirement. Ergo, illegals will be treated. End of story.
What the hell?
Obama: "Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple."
The death panel charge WAS a lie.
So was the claim about illegal immigrants being included in the bills. It was a lie.
When Joe Wilson yells out, "You lie!" he is claiming that illegal immigrants would be included in the reform proposal. Which it never was and never will be.
Do you really not see a difference? If you believe that Obama is lying, you have to
1) Make the statement you believe the health care reform on the table will create death panels // will include illegal immigrants
2) Defend 1) with some kind of evidence, something convincing
Short of that, you really aren't making any sense.
"Democracy has traditionally sprung from the middle class. Socialism always springs from a weird hothouse relationship between resentful academics (Marx), the wealthy (Engels), and a segment of poor people who are happy to take handouts even if it ultimately means a lower social standard of living."
And the middle class are known by their heckling?
Or is this a tangent?
Of course, there is a way to figure out who is lying. But I know facts rarely get in the way of the comfort provided by dogmatism.
To quote House Bill 3200:
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
43
"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States"
I'm just saying.
Oh Sev, you want shrill? Ha. How 'bout I call Joe Wilson a raging lunatic, or maybe a racist?
Tonight was a great night. The Obama I voted for was back in fine form. Quite proud of him.
But Obama was guilty of disrespecting his critics by labeling their arguments nothing but a lie
The nameless critics' assertion is true because Obama really does plan to kill Grandma?
Moreover, there's a big difference between saying, for example, "professors lie," "law professors lie," and "Althouse lies." The first two groups are too large for Althouse to be defamed under a group libel theory. Here, Obama basically said that "Liars lied."
Death panel was a brilliant metaphor. It was the best political poetry in a decade.
Are there going to be death panels? No. Is the metaphor a true representation of what would happen under socialized medicine? Yes.
Zachary Paul Sire - Ditto.
The asshole was classless and he will pay for it big time.
Even the devout wing nuts with a brain or a sense of decorum or at least a form of respect for the office will let him know.
Anybody here remember hearing someone from the right screaming "liar" during the Iraq per-invasion bullshit?
H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E-S.
Revenant, the bill doesn't cover illegals, simple as that.
If you want immigration reform, that's an entirely different problem. A problem that George Bush and his Republican congress never solved.
No, ZPS, because when they talk about death panels they (or she) explains what she means by that and what she describes pretty much *has* to happen.
And when Obama says that illegal aliens are not covered under this plan he doesn't explain that they will still get to walk into any hospital and get care. Someone pays for that.
It's convenient to frame the whole issue so that any externalities are off limits for discussion because they "aren't in the plan."
It's convenient, but it's not *honest*.
why would anyone go to factcheck.org?
Seven - Even you, as uneducated and silly as your are...can't possibly believe in "death panels."
Or are you just sucking up?
Visiting -- The law also prevents people from entering the country without a visa. And jaywalking. And doing coke.
Glad to see those scourges are a thing of the past.
Oh dear gawd... now Jeremy is lecturing us about respect for the office.
Ah yes, I can recall how much, Dear Revenant, the loyal Democrat opposition kept quite when overseas during the opening campaign in early 2003 and thereafter. Not a peep, not even a quiet murmur of protest about America's foreign policy back then.
Ah yes, those were the days! Can we ever get them back now that the Republicans are being so very rude towards our Commander in Chief?
wv: promprow in sexual acts defines some people.
I think we're finally going to get true, affordable, universal health care for all after tonight, you guys. Such a great speech. We should all be celebrating. Thank you, Obama!
JAL said..."why would anyone go to factcheck.org?
Geee...for "facts?"
Good lord...as if they don't provide plenty of documentation.
Let me guess: You rely on Glenn Beck?
Just Visiting:
Please show us the process that will be used to determine eligibility. It doesn't exist in the bill.
The language you highlight is meaningless without an enforcement mechanism and the Democrats voted against an amendment in committee to keep Republicans from adding residency/citizenship verification to the bill.
As I recall, one Senator once, in front of an audience of schoolkids, called the President (Bush, at the time), a "loser."
The Democrats elected him Senate Majority Leader.
Sorry, the Democrats don't get to bitch about the civility of discourse. They made their bed, they can lie in their own filth.
Wilson was right, and should not have apologized for a thing. PelosiCare will, indeed cover illegals, one way or another.
He should have pressed the attack on the news shows the next day.
Inch closer to the NHS and the politics inches closer to the British style, too.
Next thing you know, we'll be writing cheques, using the loo, and driving on the left hand side of the road.
Mostly, I'm looking forward to the chips with malt vinegar.
Wow. Phosphorius has this crowd decidedly overmatched.
Illegal immigrants will get free health care under any socialized medical care scheme because doctors and hospitals are not going to have the ability to determine who is legal and who is not.
Do you think Dr. Smith out there in Flagstaff has a big database that keeps track of who is in the country legally and who is not? Think, people. Please. Just a little bit.
Synova - YOU believe in the Obama death panels?
Yeah, Phos is just overmatching everyone.
Are you the sock puppet?
Synova, what do you think happens currently when illegal aliens walk into a hospital? And do you know that whatever that is has absolutely nothing to do with the legislation, i.e., the whole shebang that's been going on for months now?
You guys do know that this is about a bill to change some laws regarding health insurance and health care, right? Not some huge crap sandwich of everything you don't like about the world?
[Immigration] A problem that George Bush and his Republican congress never solved.
St. Ronald O'Reagan exacerbated the situation by granting amnesty to 2 million illegals. Going forward, employers of illegals were supposed to be penalized but it never actually happened. Access to a low-wage, compliant workforce was too good to cut off.
It's funny that none of the libs here even try to refute the actual argument being made about coverage for illegal aliens.
Seven Machos said..."Illegal immigrants will get free health care under any socialized medical care scheme because doctors and hospitals are not going to have the ability to determine who is legal and who is not."
They already do, dumbfuck...and most of us pay for it...just as we pay for the uninsured.
Have you ever heard of emergency rooms?
FLS -- It's not a blame game about how the illegals got here. Up your game.
The death panels assertion is anything but a lie. It won't be an actual panel. It will instead by "guidelines" based on cost-benefit analysis regarding who at what age and for what disease is worth getting treated. And if you are over a certain age, you won't be seen as worth the expense. Ask anyone who has had a sick parent in Canada. A good friend of mine's dad moved to the U.S. mostly because he simply couldn't get treated in Canada. They wouldn't do it. Their attitude was basically you've lived a good long life. By moving to the U.S. he got treated and another 5 years.
For the last few days, Drudge has been touting a UK case where doctors, because of "guidelines", wouldn't treat a premature baby.
So, no, no actual panel will take up actual cases and decides who lives and who dies. They will just do it ahead of time when they draw up the guidelines in the first place.
Diamondhead said..."It's funny that none of the libs here even try to refute the actual argument being made about coverage for illegal aliens."
I will.
It's not in the bill.
Can YOU provide some kind of documentaion or facts that say different?
Over on Twitter I said:
I'm sick of everyone sitting back and taking it. It was a lie. How dare Wilson shout? Fine. But how dare the President lie that way.
We live in an age of continual statist encroachment and an age of continual Orwellian lies streaming out of our govt.
If one man dares to stand up and shout, "You lie!" Well, I can't help but think, "Good for him."
This continual deference, this go along to get along attitude, it's killing us. We've been compromising our liberty away for nearly a century.
Now I've had two hours to reflect.
...
Yup, still feel that way.
Yikes. Just spent some time going through earlier posts and comments here. Going to find a conservative blog with more informed posters. Can't be too hard - the bar here is set very, very low.
They already do, dumbfuck...and most of us pay for it...just as we pay for the uninsured.
I see that Jeremy is back. Fabulous.
Since we pay for the uninsured already, we obviously don't need a government takeover of the health care system...to pay for the uninsured, who are paid for already.
QED.
It is true about the Illegal Aliens. It is my understanding that there is no provision in the law to enforce non-coverage of illegals via the current plan. Those amendments were all defeated in the committee. So its like posting the speed limit by making it clear that no one will ever be picked up for speeding.
Obama lied about lots of other stuff in his speech. Another example is his statement that we will be able to keep our current plans. That is a lie, since our employers can drop our coverage.
It is a lie to say that there are no death panels. The term death panel is just a shocking way of describing the proposed end of life rationing that is in the bill. End of life rationing is part of Obama's plan so it is a lie to say it isn't
Obama also lied about the number of uninsured. He said 30 million. I thought it was 47 million. Which is it 30 million or 47 million. Did Obama lie before or is he lying now?
Harsh - Bloviatiung about silly notions YOU yourself believe to be so or coming is the trait of those with no viable or factual arguments.
Death panels.
BULLSHIT...and you all know it, too.
Bye Just Visiting. We are so sorry to see you leave, as your comments were so erudite. Please take your sock puppet master with you. Thanks.
Revenant, the bill doesn't cover illegals, simple as that.
I'm fairly certain you aren't actually that stupid, Zach. If I pass a bill promising XYZ to every American but specifically forbid any way of distinguishing Americans from non-Americans, non-Americans will end up being given XYZ too. Inserting a clause saying "non-Americans won't be given XYZ" doesn't alter that fact.
Nor was that the only lie Obama told. He lied about the bill being deficit-neutral. He lied about savings from preventative care. He lied that there are 30 million Americans who can't get coverage. There's little he didn't lie about, really.
So why the pissing and moaning about him being called a liar? Is the truth that terrifying to you?
"The best example is the claim, ...[by] prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. [...] It is a lie, plain and simple."
Why yes, that *is* a lie, because "kill off" isn't "refuse care" is it, even if the result is a dead grandma. Obama shouldn't misrepresent people's arguments like that. "Kill" is a very active verb. No one is claiming that Obama Care will empower someone to kill people off... just to decide to let them *die*.
Stop lying Mr. Obama.
Sloanasuckiss - "Obama also lied about the number of uninsured. He said 30 million."
That's a bald-faced lie.
Provide the quote...liar.
It's not a blame game
Republicans coddle illegal aliens and wink at their working here -- they don't get to turn around and get all moralizing about them using health care.
This continual deference, this go along to get along attitude, it's killing us. We've been compromising our liberty away for nearly a century.
Being civil toward those who lie is not a virtue.
And it's not like the illegal immigrant thing was the only lie.
"As I recall, one Senator once, in front of an audience of schoolkids, called the President (Bush, at the time), a "loser."
The Democrats elected him Senate Majority Leader."
Jiminy-fucking-crickets, what took you so long?!?
I was expecting this hours ago?
You son-of-bitches are slowing down.
Still not even a single attempt to refute the argument that illegal aliens will benefit under the so-called public option.
Sloanasuckass - Here's what Obama said, not the blatant lie you posted:
"Now, if you're one of the tens of millions of Americans who don't currently have health insurance, the second part of this plan will finally offer you quality, affordable choices."
"Are there going to be death panels? No. Is the metaphor a true representation of what would happen under socialized medicine? Yes."
. . . and waves of wilsony wisdom wash over washington. . . and a billion billion blossoms bloom. . .
Dig it man. . . it's poetry. . .
Being civil toward those who lie is not a virtue.
Exactly! I'm sick of all these bureaucrats nodding and winking at each other. Sickening. Nearly all of them are liars. I wish they'd get called on it more often.
In fact, I want them all to fear that they WILL get called on it at any time at any place.
FLS -- Do you really believe that it is the Democrats who are the standard bearers of anti-immigrant sentiment in this country?
You are better than that. For better or worse, National Review, without question the leading conservative periodical in this country, has been adamantly against illegal immigration for years.
Another example is his statement that we will be able to keep our current plans. That is a lie, since our employers can drop our coverage.
Right now, employers can drop your coverage at any time. If you don't like it you can go work somewhere else.
If the bill forced employers to maintain their current plans you guys would be howling about loss of freedom.
FLS, the GOP has two faces on immigration -- one they wear when they need money, and one they wear when they need votes.
Jeremy,
Eat me! Oh wait. Sorry. That's your line.
Telling the truth is not always easy, and it's not always polite, but it's the most American thing a Representative can do.
Rep. Wilson should have apologized to Congress for his outburst, and not to Barack Obama.
I was expecting this hours ago? You son-of-bitches are slowing down.
Thank you, Ms. Manners.
FLS, the GOP has two faces on immigration -- one they wear when they need money, and one they wear when they need votes.
Well put.
The Republican rebuttal, a doctor and LA congress crittr, claimed the bill creates like 53 new boards and panels!
What the heck is that all about? And not one of them will assess whether a patient is here legally or illegaly??
That means Obama and the Dems just ain't trying hard enough.
illegal aliens will benefit under the so-called public option.
Well sure, if their employers drop their private insurance plans for the public option for their employees -- legal and illegal.
It's not so much the lying. It's the It Wasn't Me character of the lies.
wv: elyista
Yes, you, too, could win a trip to beautiful Elyista if you win The New Barack Obama Lottery!
AJ, well, it would have been 52, but that 53rd one was the key to real reform.
"Right now, employers can drop your coverage at any time. If you don't like it you can go work somewhere else.
If the bill forced employers to maintain their current plans you guys would be howling about loss of freedom."
Yes, of course.
Which is why we can't figure out why Obama would bother to lie about this. It's so completely obvious that he doesn't have the power to make this promise. It is a lie.
Right now, employers can drop your coverage at any time. If you don't like it you can go work somewhere else.
If the bill forced employers to maintain their current plans you guys would be howling about loss of freedom
IIRC the problem is you would not be able to pick up a private policy if your employer drops his as the companies will not be writing new ones...?
"Exactly! I'm sick of all these bureaucrats nodding and winking at each other. Sickening. Nearly all of them are liars. I wish they'd get called on it more often."
This won't work. . . because then you would have to excuse Obama for calling the death panelers liars, which they are.
You have to find a way for Wilson to be a "treu American hero", while keeping Obama the "scary socialist" even though, as we have now decided, they both did the same thing.
A real pickle.
I am watching a MTV thing with the Jeff Beck group and they are playing "People Get Ready". It is a classic, great song but I hope not prophetic. Nice hottie singing the lead.
wv =apsant
An excellent observation Ann. You summed it up.
And count me in the column of those who are disappointed in his apology. Some citizens have been invigorated by the townhalls and the chance to have their say, crude or rude or not.
I think Joe, more than Obama could ever do, has thrown the water on the fire.
Former Law Student wrote: Right now, employers can drop your coverage at any time. If you don't like it you can go work somewhere else.
If the bill forced employers to maintain their current plans you guys would be howling about loss of freedom.
That's all well and good, but that doesn't change the bottom line: Obama bin Lyin'
when Obama says under his plan if we like our coverage we get to keep it, Obama is LYING.
That's the fact. You can try to weasel around it a dozen different ways, and throw it back in our faces about how it's all our fault, but the FACT is that Obama is LYING.
That's also what this thread is about, so stop trying to change the subject.
Phos, I know this will blow your mind, but a true statement and a false statement are not the same thing. And if you think that death panels (AKA "guidelines" created by one or more panels that will deny treatment) will not exist under the current plan, you are dreaming. Or naive. Or hey, maybe you do know better, and you're a liar.
Jeremy, you need to relax. Obama used the 30 million statistic. It's all over the news if you missed the speech.
Death Panels aren't a lie. They are a scary potential problem that should be discussed. They are a fear and a metaphor for the awful experiences we have with government bureacrats, only now in matters of life and death. I thought Obama was really shabby in not handling this more intelligently. This is a reasonable concern... even if single payer is just something Obama promises to certain groups of donors and not the real plan.
Ya know, this is an issue the left and right probably could find some middle ground on. The hostility and attempts to 'win' are just stupid.
Revenant, why don't you have a blog?
I'll have to find out tomorrow. I'm going to sleep.
when Obama says under his plan if we like our coverage we get to keep it, Obama is LYING.
Obama's plan does not take your coverage away,
but he can't promise your boss will offer it forever and a day.
There is fundamentally no way that a government takeover of health care will not lead to rationing. Rationing means that some people will get treatment and others won't, and a bureaucrat decides which.
Death panels.
Also, Palin was wonderfully effective with the metaphor, which is why the leftists here remain apoplectic, unhinged, and otherwise sound bat shit crazy.
Michael Steele presented an alternatives to care guidelines. The other day, he promised seniors that they can get everything they want, and it won't cost them anything.
Any plan that doesn't involve the consumer paying the cost him or herself will need some sort of guidelines or it will quickly go belly up.
Sorry I have not read all of the comments but I don't think anyone would have this angle or opinion-
Question-
If Obama's main argument is-
that the uninsured are driving up the cost of insurance and health care because hospitals do NOT turn away the uninsured-if that's Obama's argument which I think it is and always has been-
then-
why not some how cover illegal aliens especially if they make up a good percentage of the uninsured that are driving up the cost of health care by emergency room visits?
[Why wouldn't Democrats do that if they truly believe that insuring the uninsured is the magic bullet?]
"Death Panels aren't a lie. They are a scary potential problem that should be discussed. They are a fear and a metaphor for the awful experiences we have with government bureacrats, only now in matters of life and death."
Ahhh. . . more poetry. So the death panelers aren't lying, they are "poeticizing".
And so, quite magically. . . they can't be disagreed with!!
How does one refute a metaphor? Or catch a sunbeam in your cap? Or drink the horizon. . .
Poetry, man. . .
It's poetry. . .
Wilson (what a racist!) has the gall to disrespect our first black/white president! Doesn't he know he's our commander-in-chief?
As for the poor undocumented persons who break the law and come into this country illegally. Laws, Schaws, of course, they should get free health care equal to those of Legal Residents and American citizens. Sure, most of them don't pay taxes and don't respect our laws, but still.
Anybody who thinks different is obviously a racist who hates Mexicans and foreigners and anybody who isn't a white American.
My first job out of college was running a union’s H&W fund which was self-insured and included a Blue Cross hospitalization plan and major medical coverage. This was just after ERISA was enacted and we had to write and publish benefit booklets for the 5,000 or so union members.
The first part of the booklet laid out the eligibility requirements for benefits…i.e A union member was eligible for benefits for six months from the last period when they had a minimum of nine months work in a union shop in the prior 18 months.
Since we had fiduciary responsibility to the H&W fund, it was our job to verify from employer payroll records that the union member met the eligibility requirements BEFORE we paid any benefits.
This is where the Obama lie comes in. The Dem plan says illegals don’t get benefits but they fail to allow a way to verify if a patient is illegal or legal.
Bottom line is Congess critter Joe Wilson was right when he said Obama and The Dems and Zach are full of soup!
"Wilson (what a racist!). . ."
Damn it. Curse me for a rookie, but I completely forgot about this one!
The "Obama plays the race card" card.
A classic.
Hot stuff that was a good song Seven. I remember everyone danced to that back when the guys all wore silk shirts no matter how fing cold it was. And we would leave our leather jackets in the car's trunk to save a $1 on the coat check fee.
Didn't help much when you left with some girl and your coat was in a buddy's trunk. It took a long time for cars to warm up in the '80's. Damn we were dumb back then!
Not like today- people have it easy today. :)
These kids today. What's the matter with them? They aren't working hard enough in school. They insult the president. They have sex like rabbits in comfy environs. And the music!
Here is a pre-emptive comment. Jeremy blows!
wv =ungsion
Fuck you! Suck my dick!
"And so, quite magically. . . they can't be disagreed with!!"
Phos, you can disagree with it, of course. You can explain how we don't have to worry that government bureaucrats will make decisions to ration our care that might lead to deaths or simply bad results.
Argue against it all day!
But it's a metaphor, not a literal statement that Obama and a group of evil people will execute old ladies. It's a metaphor, not a lie.
So please, explain how this concern is addressed. I'm only addressing those who claim Palin meant it literally. Since no one knows what the bill will say, exactly, it's super easy to simply say 'nope, won't happen'. There's no way to prove it will yet.
The 'death panels' are not a metaphor. They are an inevitability under PelosiCare and already provided for in the law (though not necessarily this particular bill.
They are the panels that will inevitably tell elderly patients that rather than getting the pacemaker, they're better off taking the pain pill.
They are the panels that will tabulate 'best practices,' and decide on covered treatments, based on age, condition and other factors. There is no way a centralized medical system can function without them.
They are the panels charged with FINDING the hundreds of billions in "waste" that Obama insists are already in existing programs.
They are the panels that, having decided what best practices are and eligibility criteria are, will be charged with verifying eligibility.
These are all 'death panels.'
Here's where some libtard will argue that insurance companies already ration. That's ridiculous.
An insurance company can say, 'this treatment is not covered by your plan. You may, however, go purchase your own treatment.'
The goverment death panel will say, 'you may not get this treatment.'
The difference is huge.
I utterly reject the 'death panel as metaphor' meme. They are not metaphors at all.
So. . . wait a minute. . .
Do I have to refute a vague metaphor that can mean anything. . .
. . . or the outright statement that Obama will kill the weak?
Is there an official republican stance on this?
I am loathe to even comment, but this "death panel" meme the good Professor Althouse has been harping is simply crap. A doctor talking to a patient about end-of-life choices (important word) is not forcing the patient to do diddly squat. The basic form for a health care POA that is utilized now throughout the Midwest was crafted here in humble La Crosse, Wisconsin. Please read the Washington Post article below and stop being ridiculous.
The difficulties arise for doctors and family members when they are forced into tough and heartbreaking decisions (see, e.g., Schaivo) when patients don't choose what end-of-life healthcare they desire. I apologize if these links don't work, but it is an interesting article in the Wash. Post and the POA is very important.
Post Article
To get the noted POA form:
Gundersen POA
Eric Clapton now on stage with Jeff Beck. This show is on for another 30 minutes. Fuck work tomorrow maybe.
And Jeremy blows!
wv= buingsro = what did Yoko do really good for John Lennon
POA means what pucker on my ass Joe Vennstrap?
Or Joe Veenstra is just a plain old strap? And fuck the Wapo; it employs nothing but future unemployed socialists from the Columbia School of Journalism.
wv = pictic
phos, it's not a 'win' or 'lost' proposition.
You're right that there's no way to eliminate the argument. That's because concerns about a government having too much power or inefficiency is basically a core concern.
It's like asking the ACLU if you have to defeat every metaphorical civil rights proposition. It's silly...
anyway, be specific when you see a 'death panel' concern. If it's the one about docs counseling end of life stuff, as Joe Veenstra mentions, just explain your side of that. I think that did not belong in a 'cost cutting' section, and that while it's very good to have a living will, etc, I don't want our government trying to cut costs this way.
But there are two sides to that.
And if it's the concern that, one day, we'll have single payer as a solution to the disaster the current bill will create, and in single payer, we've got lazy government bureacrats who apply one size fits all to complex problems, or ration health care in an offensive (to me) way, and people die as a result of this cost cutting measure, then your rebuttal should explain why that's OK (I think that argument can easily be made) or that it's ridiculous (also not too hard).
but claiming 'death panels' is a lie misses the point of the argument. many people don't like government intrusions into life and death issues like health care, particularly in an attempt to cut costs. It is not possible to anticipate exactly how this fear will materialize, but the general fear is represented by the fear called 'death panels'
BHO, Sarah Palin and Health Care?
This is gonna be BIG.
wv: quire, as in, "We have no exit strategy to get out of this health care quire".
"Lazy govt bureacrats" - surely you jest.
I like that Blake.. "we have no way to get out of this healthcare quire". Sounds like a scene from a bad scifi movie!
And I have title for your movie:
wv = inexcla
Diamondhead said..."Still not even a single attempt to refute the argument that illegal aliens will benefit under the so-called public option."
It's always nice to hear from a dolt who doesn't listen.
Can you produce a quote from the speech that relates to the "public option?"
"but claiming 'death panels' is a lie misses the point of the argument"
My only point here is to actually pin down the republican point.
One poster here said that it was "metaphorically true". Another said it was quite literally true.
Which is it? No matter what any "lib" argues, you can always claim that they didn't address your argument. . . because your argument is so wooly and ill defined.
But, as a start. . . isn't it simply the case that right now, insurance companies make decisions about what procedures to pay for based mainly on reducing costs?
How is that not a "death panel". . . at least in some metaphorical sense, and why do you think the government would do worse?
Slow Joe - Show me the "quote" from the speech relating to 30 million.
Liar.
The speech: "Now, if you're one of the tens of millions of Americans who don't currently have health insurance, the second part of this plan will finally offer you quality, affordable choices."
Jeremy:
The Dem/ Obama bill creates 53 new boards or panels and at least one or two has to be a death panel!
Fuck you asshole.
wv = jeremyblows
"why do you think the government would do worse?"
You aren't asking a serious question, are you? You *really* don't think the government can do worse than a private business?
The War on Poverty: 40 years later, and have we won yet?
Joe V. -- Of course there's no force. That's why, under this new government takeover of health care, I am going to insist that I be kept hooked up to all available machinery and kept alive indefinitely, no matter what the cost, for as long as possible. Again, money and time are to be no object.
If there's no rationing, that won't be a problem, right? I hope not, because there are millions of Americans who want what I want, and we were promised no rationing. No death panels.
Also, thanks for the WP link. There's a bastion of utter objectivity that we all trust.
Suck my dick, AJ!
Gene Olson blows too and the dumbass taxpayers of Santa Monica Community College who pay his salary!
wv = CA Juco toilet scrubber, Gene Olson, sucks the big one!
Try this Youtube clip about 30 seconds in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP-QESkn_Fk
WV: ovulac, for mothers-to-be
You know what they say, when you are out of beer, you are outta here! [apologies to Harry Kalas].
Good night all. It's been fun even if I have been doing most of the heavy lifting!
wv - gatekeepr
Hint: Teh One™ uses "30 million"
You can hear the actual words. I believe it was not simply a mistake on the teleprompter.
"You aren't asking a serious question, are you? You *really* don't think the government can do worse than a private business?
The War on Poverty: 40 years later, and have we won yet?"
I know all the standard anti-government arguments, and sympathize with some of them. But governments do some things quite well. Infrastructure, for example.
Is healtcare one of those things that governments can't do? Doesn't it laready do it okay with Medicare and Medicaid and emergency rooms everywhere?
Isn't a particular argument required here, and mnot the usual "Government = Bad" mindset?
Slow Joe - Show me the "quote" from the speech relating to 30 million. Liar.
Transcript here.
The exact quote: "There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage."
"Doesn't it already do it okay with Medicare and Medicaid and emergency rooms everywhere?"
Uh, no, it's not. It's going to run out of money on MC(2) and the government isn't running emergency rooms.
Not a good analogy.
Does the government do somethings effectively? Yes. Efficiently and cost-effectively? No.
The government bureaucracy (which will take over the health care program) will prove to be like all other bureaucracies: slow, inefficient, more concerned with the process and the budgets than with the people it "serves."
Oh it was very rude to do what Rep. Joe Wilson did, but calling the President a liar was not incorrect in this regard. There isn't a single thing in HR3200 that prevents illegal aliens from using the same benefits package that citizens can.
So I wonder how the Althouse Stooges can get away with this one. Weepy vaginas all, getting on their knees to suck on President BarelyCares point of no return. However, the look on Nancy Pelosi's face was priceless. Seeing that harpy's grotesque mask stretch to the max in an O face was awesome.
Phos -- The government takeover of health care will necessitate shortages and rationing and a decrease in the quality of care, as it has everywhere it has been implemented. Everywhere that fiat is substituted for price, shortages and rationing occur.
Furthermore, try to get into see a specialist doctor with some serious disease using your vaunted Medicare or Medicaid. Then try it with private insurance, or your own money. See which is faster. See which is even possible.
And the government has nothing to do with emergency rooms, you dolt. That's private businesses taking losses, as required by law.
Pie-in-the-sky leftists are an endless source of humor for me.
Is healtcare one of those things that governments can't do?
Depends on what you mean by "healthcare". Can the government provide a welfare-like health safety net for the needy? Yes. And it already does.
Can the government allocate 1/6 of the economy more effectively than the private sector can? Abso-fucking-lutely not.
Also, infrastructure is not a good thing to point out. Remember the bridge that fell in Minneapolis?
Sad how our Santa Monica Community College professor has gone silent when his tantrum about "He did NOT say 30 million!" has been shown to be -- well, to put it bluntly, a lie.
But he's in good company with the Teleprompter Reader.
Didn't the dems boo Bush during his SOTU when he was talking about privatizing social security (talk about standing in the way of progress and change)?
And not just one dem, but a whole bunch. So where is this faux outrage coming from?
Jeremy said...
Slow Joe - Show me the "quote" from the speech relating to 30 million.
Liar.
The speech: "Now, if you're one of the tens of millions of Americans who don't currently have health insurance, the second part of this plan will finally offer you quality, affordable choices."
Hey, jackoff, it's right here in the transcript:
"There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage. In just a two-year period, one in every three Americans goes without health care coverage at some point. And every day, 14,000 Americans lose their coverage."
First the tag line was 47 million uninsured, now it's down to 30 million. Well, I guess the president more or less verified that 17 million of them are illegals. Isn't that special. More or less proves that my tally of the real numbers of uninsured are even less than that. If your little black jesus, gene, is willing to lie about that number, guess any other number he uses strains credulity. Sort of like everything you say when you type here.
Well, it was nice jiffy-jamming your ham-fisted retardation back at you, Gene.
Sad how our Santa Monica Community College professor has gone silent when his tantrum about "He did NOT say 30 million!" has been shown to be -- well, to put it bluntly, a lie.
Now, now. Don't ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. Calling it a lie presumes Jeremy didn't have his head up his ass. When is that ever the case?
You non-worshipers of Obama disgust me.
Do you not realize that this man has given 17 million Americans health insurance in the last couple weeks?
Fools. Cretins. Suck my dick!
I am glad to see that SMCC is doing its part to promote diversity by hiring someone who has only a passing acquaintance with truth, knowledge, and integrity.
To our esteemed professor, these are probably just words.
But oh how fun to catch him in such an obvious Barackism of committing a terminological inexactitude of such whopping proportions.
"Do you not realize that this man has given 17 million Americans health insurance in the last couple weeks?"
Now that is one of the most brilliant put-downs EVAH!
WV: "Who are you going to believe about HR3200, me or your own lying chlyze?"
There's one nice thing about all this, which is McCain's moralizing response. It reminds me that the one thing I liked about Obama winning is that it meant McCain didn't.
Obviously, Obama was the official speaker, and it's rude to yell something at the speaker. But Obama was guilty of disrespecting his critics by labeling their arguments nothing but a lie
That's oddly like a tweet I wrote (or is it "a tweet I twote"?):
It seems to me he kept saying his opponents lied (yes, some did) & then Joe Wilson said, not "You lie!" but "No, YOU lie!" Both were uncivil
Randy then explained to me that the Senate rules allow a speaker to characterize opponents generally as liars or whatever but not to directly accuse another person in the room. By those quaint rules of etiquette, Wilson was out of line and Obama wasn't. But Obama's tone was partisan and taunting and it implicitly tarred all his opponents, including those who tried to fight fair, with the same brush.
How quaint that under the rules of the House saying "You lie!" brings on the full gravitas of the House leadership, but a man who is thoroughly corrupt (Rangel) gets not a passing glance.
Must keep up appearances.
Maybe the reason that republicans feel that illegal immigrants will be covered under this health care bill is because the democrats defeated not one but two ammendments that would address that very issue. In other words, closing the loophole that would potentially allow illegal immigrants to be covered under this bill.
I guess the kabuki never gets tiring: One lone Rep outburst versus dozens of Dems—but everyone's conveniently forgotten how the Dems treated W.
peter hoh said...
Next thing you know, we'll be writing cheques, using the loo, and driving on the left hand side of the road.
Comment of the day.
We're undoing the American revolution!
"Well, it was nice jiffy-jamming your ham-fisted retardation back at you, Gene."
Methadras wins the thread.
These are your readers Ann...I hope you're proud. Please look over some of your posts from a year ago and try to take stock of what this site has become.
McCain is a fool - there are any number of Dems who will say the same thing about Wilson's outburst ... what purpose is served by McCain joining in their outrage? He gets another few minutes of camera time. He can't get out of politics fast enough for me.
I myself clutched my pearls in horror.
The whole room should have stood up and yelled "Liar" when Obama actually said that his plan isn't going to cost anything, that, in fact, it's going to reduce the deficit. ??!! Everyone knows that is a lie. He shouldn't get away with it, and we all know the media won't call him on it.
In the context of our national deficit/debt, take your pick, the cost of this thing is paramount. For him to lie about it outright is inexcusable.
He just should have thrown his shoe at Obama. Everyone knows this is a courageous example of political expression.
I didn't watch the speech.
It's pointless to watch yet another Obama bloviation; and can't someone make him stop talking for maybe two, three days?
There is only one key point, forgotten amongst the other lies about this bloated bill:
This plan, including the public option, is (admitted by BHO and other Dems) intended as the path toward a single payer system.
No one denies this.
So the question:
Is a single payer system the way to go?
Restated, is the US going to adopt socialism to govern 1/6th of the economy?
Remember, they are giving away the security of having medical bills covered by the State (available services may vary), and all you need to do is trade a little freedom.
Just a little.
And a little more every year, as "health care" becomes more broadly defined, encompassing what you eat and wear and drive and read and watch.
That's the only question of the moment.
All who argue otherwise are liars.
"Please look over some of your posts from a year ago and try to take stock of what this site has become."
...and you, a law professor!!
Polls show Obama won big time
Yes, please rely on those polls, which had tiny samples, heavily overrepresenting Democrats, of the few sorry souls who actually watched the damned show.
And, of course, Clinton had a similar bump in 1993 and that's why we have national health care today. Or not.
WV: wayblene: a style of country music singing.
Who asked McCain to open his pie hole? He's earned his irrelevance, why can't he accept it?
How quaint that under the rules of the House saying "You lie!" brings on the full gravitas of the House leadership, but a man who is thoroughly corrupt (Rangel) gets not a passing glance.
Great point! Civility? Please. They ask us to be civil to make us tolerate their malfeasance and lies.
I myself clutched my pearls in horror.
rhhardin made me LOL.
The whole room should have stood up and yelled "Liar" ...
That would have been awesome.
Barack lied, civility died.
I wonder how much it hurts republicans to focus on that outburst. more than a few of us thought this at home. And it leads people ask the question, well, was Obambi lying? Focusing on that question probably won't help the president, because if he wasn't lying, it was only because he had severely deluded himself into believing what is false is true.
Specifically on covering illegal immigrants, if there is not enforcement, there is no exclusion. duh.
A lying liar got called on it? It says something about our society that this is news.
There's another point about civility: You can afford to be civil when you have a responsible press. Mostly, we don't. We have an Obama cheer club.
When the press is so one-sided that you can't be sure they'll cover anything at all in opposition to the President's plans, you have to take your opportunities to get the word out. Even if it means being a little bit uncivil.
Of course, this is after the President himself calls you a bickering liar.
In fact, I want them all to fear that they WILL get called on it at any time at any place.
This is the true reason the town hall meetings have been awesome.
Speaking of rationing, I think we should set up "death panels" to assess the viability of Seven Machos' comments. He easily accounts for more than 15% of the comments on this thread and most other threads, and hardly ever adds anything to the conversation. No new ideas, no thoughts. Just sarcastic little recycled one-liners attacking anything not far enough to the right. He clearly exhibits a pathological addiction to commenting, and urgently requires rehab. His supplier/pusher clearly doesn't see the mercy in forcing him to curb his malignant little habit.
He's like his own talking robot doll with a pull-string and built-in rim-shot machine.
Care for this ethernet glutton's bandwidth urgently needs to be rationed. Like an obese heart patient, the patient is causing himself harm. His comment stream requires immediate bariatric surgery.
Obama called us all liars in his speech. It's just his version of calling town hall attendants Nazi's and fascists.
Obama is so moderate and bi-partisan! Huh?
I agree with you, montana. But with the minor caveat that we include you, formerlawstudent, Montagne, downtownlad, garage mahal, and the lamentable Jeremy, who perform the same function, except from the left.
I'm not sure I can understand a mindset that condemns 7M for his funny posts with the professor from SMCC (Hi, Gene!) whose posts generally consist of the words "bitching and whining."
Care to ask for him to be banned as well?
WV: jugali, a boxer with very big ears
Only capable of potshots? Moi?
Obama IS a liar.
Insurance companies cannot drop people merely because they are sick.
You will NOT be able to keep your same insurance if you are in the majority of people who are insured through work. Your employer WILL drop the private coverage.
AND you will NOT be able to get the same coverage because the bill, as it is now, includes a clause that prevents insurance companies from writing new policies unless they agree with the new government rules.
You WILL be subject to government appointed panels deciding just how much coverage you deserve. It WILL be based on your age, utility to the government and cost of the treatments you need.
There WILL be rationing. People WILL die and WILL be put on the fast track to die.
Obama is a liar.
Unfortunately, many people will have to suffer and die before that truth becomes evident.
Shorter montana:
"Shut up! he explained."
You know, when people talk censorship, its a confession in my mind that they are losing the debate.
Insurance companies cannot drop people merely because they are sick.
True. Insurance companies are merely incentivized to find a reason to drop you, if you're sick enough to cost them any considerable sum. It's called "recission."
You will NOT be able to keep your same insurance if you are in the majority of people who are insured through work. Your employer WILL drop the private coverage.
Why, for heaven's sake? Inadequate bargaining power vs. your employer? Hey, form a union.
try to take stock of what this site has become
This is a popular meme lately, amongst some of our commenters on the left.
Your guy won. You wanted him to. But don't expect the rest of us to adore his every move. It's been 9 months: you can stop whining now! And pass that on to your dear leader, too, please. He did a lot of little girl whining and blaming in his speech last night. As usual!
thx
wv: normas
former
Like the president, you know nothing about economics.
Okay, suppose you convince your employer to take on that necessary extra cost.
But meanwhile your company's competitors don't. The companies competing with yours then has a--drum roll please--competitive advantage over your company.
Add in union representation and your competitiveness takes a nose dive. unions are mainly useful as a threat, not as a reality.
Get a clue.
Freeman:
YES
As I've said before: if people had not gone absolutely apeshit in the townhalls, we'd all be anticipating single-payer in about 4 years.
All the politicians care about is what gets caught on camera. "Calling them out," as Obama himself boasted about last night, is the only way left to hold them accountable. You absolutely have to be loud and shameless, or the press will gladly ignore you and your position.
wv: "taxen" I kid you negative
fls,
Just wait until the single payer comes to fruition.
Doctors will unionize.
Guess what happens then?
So 'punching back' and 'get in their faces' is only allowed for Democrats? I see.
By the way, nobody is calling Joe Wilson a liar, because everyone knows perfectly well that under Obamacare illegal aliens will in practice have unrestricted access to the 'public plan'. Just as they have unrestricted access to voting.
To sum up:
Joe Wilson's outburst was brave and heroic, speaking truth to power, and anyway it was exactly the way democrats, those unmannered louts treated Bush.
And McCain was some sort of nancy-boy for apologizing, and you're glad he lost the lection, even though it put a (in your opinion) lying socilaist whose ignorance of the economy will destroy us all into office.
Also the British parliamentary system that encourages these outbursts is better than ours without being more sophisticated than ours.
And governments have nothing to do with emergency rooms, except in that they force them to run at a loss, which is fine and dandy.
Did I miss anything?
"Did I miss anything?"
Nothing about 30 IQ points wouldn't solve.
"He just should have thrown his shoe at Obama. Everyone knows this is a courageous example of political expression."
Still weeping about that one, are you.
It's okay. Bush wasn't hurt. He's resting comfortably in Texas now.
It's okay. . .
Doctors will unionize.
Guess what happens then?
Republicans will pass a bill outlawing it?
FLS: Rescission in insurance policies is done when the applicant perpetrated fraud and the company is allowed to drop the coverage.
It clearly states this in the application process. The company will check into your medical records to verify your health status. The company also has the obligation to do its due diligence in a timely manner and if they wait too long to rescind they are not in compliance.
Quote from a recent Blue Shield case.
Long before the case goes to trial this week, an appellate court ruled that insurers should not wait until members are sick or injured before verifying their medical history
If an insurer does wait, the court ruled, it loses its chance to cancel coverage unless it proves applicants intentionally misrepresented medical history that would have rendered them ineligible.
If insurers do wait to rescind they are not in compliance with the law and are subject to fines and possibly losing the ability to do business ever again in the State.
This isn't a common practice or approved practice as Obama has lied about.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Oh yeah. Unionize. So the three people at the local hardware store decide to go on strike for health insurance. Guess what there are 12 people out there who would love their job even without benefits. Go for it unionize. I dare you.
Nope:
Strikes.
Slowdowns.
"Work-to-rule."
Then: concessions granted by the State.
It worked in Canada and the UK, and it'll work here. Y'all have no idea what MDs did to retain power there, and what it will mean.
"You know, when people talk censorship, its a confession in my mind that they are losing the debate."
You know, when people don't understand the purpose of humor, it's a confession in my mind that they don't understand the purpose of a debate either.
"Did I miss anything?"
Nothing about 30 IQ points wouldn't solve."
Well played. Joe Wilson himself couldn't have done it any better!
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