Althouse: "Women just don't like me."

August 6, 2009

"Women just don't like me."

"There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate) and I cannot find one. Not one of them finds me attractive."

The murderer's weblog.

230 comments:

1 – 200 of 230 Newer› Newest»

Hoosier Daddy said...: Ummm...maybe because you were a psycho?; 8/6/09, 9:03 AM
Leland said...: When you shoot at a few wives, girlfriends, moms, and sisters; men won't like you either.; 8/6/09, 9:11 AM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Well, I guess he showed them. That'll learn 'em, durn 'em.; 8/6/09, 9:15 AM
john said...: "Not one of them finds me attractive," the 48-year-old computer programmer lamented. Well, it's not that we weren't warned about certain people in this occupation.; 8/6/09, 9:23 AM
Fred4Pres said...: This guy is dead but there are other alienated folks out there, men and women. Most will lead their lives of quiet desparation and loneliness. A rare few will hurt themselves and a rarer few will hurt others.

Don't focus myopically on your own condition. Get out and do something. Volunteer. Pursue a hobby. Anything that interests you. That is the only way to turn this around.; 8/6/09, 9:27 AM
ricpic said...: That's okay feng, there is the occasional attractive Chinese woman.; 8/6/09, 9:28 AM
ricpic said...: I take it that means there 120 million unattractive women out there!; 8/6/09, 9:29 AM
john said...: I worry about feng.; 8/6/09, 9:29 AM
Balfegor said...: I worry about feng.

Yes, all that yoga can't be good for him. Everything in moderation.; 8/6/09, 9:33 AM
Shanna said...: My ex boyfriend posted this on facebook this morning, under the heading "having game can save lives".

I have to agree that women were obviously picking up on the fact that he is a psycho.; 8/6/09, 9:34 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: .. some hope this tragedy will be just the start of a new, long-needed conversation about single available men in this country.

"There's no reason to sweep it under the rug. For too long in our history we have just not wanted to have this conversation," said Playboy Magazine Tycoon Hugh Heffner to ABC News George Stephanopoulos.; 8/6/09, 9:50 AM
Jeremy said...: If only all of the women were packing.
The NRA.; 8/6/09, 9:56 AM
KCFleming said...: Weird Lonely Assholes with Weapons.
Weird Lonely Psychos with Weapons.
Weird Lonely Asocial Geeks with Weapons.

Apparently women find these categories unattractive.
Why is that?; 8/6/09, 9:59 AM
Robert Cook said...: As he was a computer programmer and seemed unable--despite his desire--to find women who were responsive to him, I wonder if he was afflicted with some form of high-functioning autism, which is purportedly more common in his profession than many others. If he lacked the ability to properly interact with or to send and pick up cues from others, it would explain his inability to find anyone with whom he might have had a relationship. It might also explain his inability to find another means to deal with his loneliness and frustration.; 8/6/09, 10:02 AM
ricpic said...: To quote Blake: are there no hankies? are there no lotions?; 8/6/09, 10:11 AM
Tibore said...: Goddamn idiot fucknut... he's going to make all us computer geek wallflowers look insane, and no, I'm not joking about this. I read stuff like how his neighbors didn't interact with him much ("Neighbors described him as reclusive and said he had stopped talking to them in the past few years."), and I think "Damn, I don't talk with my neighbors much. And they know I'm an IT guy. What in God's name are they thinking about me now??"

I'm not exactly slaying 'em dead in the dating game myself, but I'm not about to pick up some nines and go postal at a freakin' exercise class. I mean, why the hell would someone turn hateful like that? Since when do problems like he was having be due to "everyone else" instead of him? And beyond that, how in the hell is that supposed to justify spraying bullets at a bunch of women that he doesn't know??

I sort of wish I could take a baseball bat to this idiot's head. There's just no reason for this. None. I don't care how lonely that fucker was.; 8/6/09, 10:12 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: "Women just don't like me."

Exhibit A for women having excellent intuition.; 8/6/09, 10:12 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Hey, Feng, you might want to read this. It could be a good starting point for curing whatever ails you.

And about this shooter:

I almost feel guilty laughing about this story, but to hear about this guy, spending his time working out and trying to look attractive, only to walk into this joint wearing a fucking headband,...well, I can't stop. And then there's the next-door-neighbor of one of the victims, sounding like he was in love with her "for 35 years" - he can't believe it could "happen that way" to such a wonderful person - before we learn "she loved to work out and pamper her dog." My, my.

The culture of superficiality is alive and well out there. I actually feel sorry for this guy because, let's face it, he was surrounded - not by a culture that told him to work on his personality - but one that told him to work on his abs. And any guy who's seen women drool over just that, when they have sparkling personalities that nobody cares to explore, should be able to sympathize. (I was thinking about this a few days ago, as I saw one guy - one guy - get the attention of an entire beach full of women, whether they were with anyone else or not. What was the attraction? He was a specimen of muscled masculinity, that's for sure, but more than that, reeked of a studied condescension that women found irresistible. Of course, if they were to marry such a guy, they'd learn to hate his guts in no time (because he "took" them without caring, something they knew when they offered themselves up to him) so this darkest of dark comedies continues.

Rielly Hunter's back in the news. You know, the woman who HAD TO HAVE John Edwards? I almost cried for her daughter, being the supposed "love child" of a NewAge freak and her fantasy husband (who supposedly only becomes real when his current wife dies). Being a "love child" myself, eventually abandoned to the foster care system, I can't help but feel for the kid. But then I can't help but feel for almost anybody. They're all so fucked up.

Until, after 20 years of marriage, I saw my ex-wife, mewling like a cat in heat over the lying homeopath who killed her mother, I honestly had no idea.

I think most people don't either.

The Macho Response; 8/6/09, 10:17 AM
Shanna said...: Exhibit A for women having excellent intuition.

Word. And of course, he blames the women. Nothing to do with him.; 8/6/09, 10:18 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Despite a barrage of holywood films (The 40 Year Old Virgin 2005 most notably) exposing the subtle scourge of the lonely one arm men (not to be confused with returning war veterans).

The plague that is the single male past his prime continues unabated... unbeaten with no sign of relief.; 8/6/09, 10:19 AM
William said...: One wishes to extract a large moral from a large event. But the most disturbing lesson is that there are no lessons to be learned here. Charlie Manson didn't have any trouble meeting women and making connections in this lonely world. This world would be a better place if Charlie had been a a little shyer around women.....The usual suspects will preach a sermon in favor of gun control or seeing a shrink or that women should offer up a bj to the lonely man in the crowd. But it's all just sound and fury, and our efforts to parse the significance of an idiot's ramblings are part of the sound and fury.; 8/6/09, 10:25 AM
rhhardin said...: It's a big story because women will watch it.

Plane crash stories are my own favorite. Something interesting has always gone wrong, but it tends to be technical.; 8/6/09, 10:33 AM
Triangle Man said...: Hey Tibore, take it down a notch or the van will be stopping by to pick you up shortly. We know how you IT guys can be.; 8/6/09, 10:33 AM
SteveR said...: From a purely statistical point of view, what are the odds that 30 million people had it wrong and he had it right?

Although the vast majority of these scenarios don't end in such a horrible way, there are lots of people that have no clue how to get along.; 8/6/09, 10:35 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: "Exhibit A for women having excellent intuition.

Word. And of course, he blames the women. Nothing to do with him."

Sorry, but I think anyone who gives women any credit for ignoring this guy are missing the plot, here. This is a tragedy of humanity - of men and women alike - and until this zero-sum game that "people" are playing is over, we can't expect anything but destruction, physical or emotional, to be the end result. Those women didn't have "excellent intuition" - they were self-identified targets.; 8/6/09, 10:38 AM
ricpic said...: For the sake of civic peace give a lonely guy a bj, girls, willya?; 8/6/09, 10:39 AM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Crack MC, you realize that the part about "she loved to work out and pamper her dog" was likely a talentless journalist's distillation of a long, poignant, poetic eulogy on the part of the neighbor. The takeaway is that she was a real person with a happy life and at least one friend who loved her, and she didn't deserve to be the canvas upon which that psycho expressed his murderous feelings to the world. The part about his headband might be funny, but the part about her is not really funny. Even if she did "love to work out and pamper her dog" she did not ask for nor deserve any of this, and she certainly doesn't deserve to be laughed at now.

If I go to Curves tomorrow after work and get shot up by a copycat, the paper may print some ridiculous blather about me. Please don't laugh, if they do.

I say this to you, when I ordinarily roll my eyes and scroll past a lot of people's comments, because I usually think you have a lot of sense.; 8/6/09, 10:40 AM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: ...Whoa, how were they self-identified targets? Because they went to the gym?; 8/6/09, 10:41 AM
ricpic said...: C'mon Crack Emcee, you can't be blaming women for this creep's act.; 8/6/09, 10:42 AM
Anonymous said...: The fact that Match.com and eHarmony.com have at least ten men for every woman is evidence that his difficulty in finding a woman, while perhaps a bit greater than usual, is not impossible to understand. Women have all the power in today's dating market, and non-Alpha men like Sodini have a very tough time.

Peter; 8/6/09, 10:47 AM
Tibore said...: "Triangle Man said...
Hey Tibore, take it down a notch or the van will be stopping by to pick you up shortly. We know how you IT guys can be."

I'll give you these when you take it from my cold, dead hands!!! (*Waves Playstation controller*); 8/6/09, 10:48 AM
Unknown said...: I am not willing to make any sweeping social judgments about this sad affair--The man was clearly psychotic and it is terrible that innocent people had to die because he couldnt deal with the demons in his head. I see this an an individual act of lunacy and not something to be mined for social commentary. My sympathy goes out to the families and friends of the victims.; 8/6/09, 10:51 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Why couldn’t he just grow his hair get some tattoos and a bike like every other lonely guy outhere, said his neighbor.

What a shame..; 8/6/09, 11:02 AM
Shanna said...: Sorry, but I think anyone who gives women any credit for ignoring this guy are missing the plot, here. This is a tragedy of humanity - of men and women alike - and until this zero-sum game that "people" are playing is over, we can't expect anything but destruction, physical or emotional, to be the end result. Those women didn't have "excellent intuition" - they were self-identified targets.

You seem to see it as a guy who became a killer because of neglect. I see it as a guy who was neglected because there was something off about him, that same something that led him to kill. Would you really expect women to ignore their intuition and just run off with any lonely guy? Guys have the physical power in a relationship, and women have to choose whether or not to put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation (going off in a car with a strange man) based on a slight acquaintance sometimes.; 8/6/09, 11:08 AM
EKatz said...: "Crack MC, you realize that the part about "she loved to work out and pamper her dog" was likely a talentless journalist's distillation of a long, poignant, poetic eulogy on the part of the neighbor. The takeaway is that she was a real person with a happy life and at least one friend who loved her, and she didn't deserve to be the canvas upon which that psycho expressed his murderous feelings to the world."

Thank you, that needed to be said, since some people have a tendency of making less of the tragedy by thinking of the victims as less than human in certain ways (more as simplistic symbols for different social trends than real complex people).

I also read somewhere else that in addition to his lack of success with women, the murderer apparently blamed distant/poor relationships with his family and job insecurity. So if it wasn't the women it might've been something else - he might gone and sprayed bullets into an office building or killed his own family.

And for any of you speculating about whether he was a high-functioning autistic individual and whether that was part of what drove him to do this - high-functioning autistic people, like the vast majority of other people on Earth, don't do things like this.; 8/6/09, 11:14 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: No, I'm blaming EVERYONE. Those women were targets, not because they went to the gym (which, as part of our culture, is silly in and of itself) but because they were no better at communicating than he was. No person is lonely just "because". A circle is drawn around such people. Think of our "non-judgmental" culture, where no one will say anything to anyone about what they're doing wrong. That's a recipe for becoming fucked up all by itself. Who's to blame for that? And, when that fucked up person acts in a fucked up manner, do his/her victims automatically get credit for being such "nice" people, when they didn't even have the grace to say "Hi" to someone?

My friends run the gamut - from the fractured to the totally-on-top-of-it - and I give none of them a leg-up, in my heart. They're all the same. My friends who are doing well have a harder time with me, because they think money, or good genetics, or whatever should give them a pass, but they're issues are as big as my friends who are poor, or did time, or are ugly. Maybe even more, because they don't handle the misfortunes in their lives with the same good sense. (I've got one great friend, who got a disease when he was a kid, made him cock-eyed. Any woman in the world should feel blessed to have such a sweet and caring guy, but he's only had one girlfriend in his entire life - what does that say about the "excellent intuition" of women? It tells me they can be a bunch of cold, superficial bitches, more concerned with their weight, or their "pampered" dogs, than ever seeing the decent man standing right before them. And don't think for a second they won't let him know that, in front of their girlfriends, so they can all feel superior together - that's what a good circle of friends are for, right? It's so important to be seen as having friends - no matter what kind of low-lifes they can be - they're as good a cover for indecent behavior as anything. My ex was surrounded by her girlfriends when my marriage ended - every one of them having previously asked me for favors, like helping their friends, or helping them out of a bad relationship (sometimes with a married guy) who, maybe, went postal - but who was I afterward? I was a "man" and nothing more. (That's the zero-sum game I referred to). Face it, Folks: this is a culture - a NewAge culture - that's trained to lie to itself whenever it's convenient to do so.

So, do I blame women? Yes. Do I also blame men? Yes. I blame anyone who's a functioning part of this culture of lies - and women are, definitely, a BIG part of that.

Hell, there'd be no superficial NewAge culture without them.

Now, you can all go meet at "Curves" and discuss what a horrible human being I am, together. I, of course, won't be anywhere within a million miles of such a place, since, these days, I tend to enjoy spending my time helping a 66 year old man, with really bad feet, get into his sailboat and then marveling at him, once again, acting like the captain of industry he used to be. No woman, today, wants him he's said - many times.

But he's fine company for The Macho Response; 8/6/09, 11:18 AM
Steven said...: It's well-established by psychological research that lack of physical contact causes mental illness.

Women in our society are much less affected by a deficiency of contact because our culture accepts woman-woman nonsexual affection (hugging, for example) much more than male-male.

Certainly, this extreme of a case is rare, but it is a symptom of a serious social/health issue.; 8/6/09, 11:26 AM
EKatz said...: "Those women were targets, not because they went to the gym (which, as part of our culture, is silly in and of itself) but because they were no better at communicating than he was."

How on Earth do you know that?

We're talking about specific individuals he killed - not the generic stereotypical members of the society you're discussing.

How do you know these women who worked out didn't also volunteer in charitable organizations, have meaningful jobs, weren't also great friends and wonderful mothers, daughters, sisters? Not that they would have deserved to die or be blamed if they weren't, but my point is how do you know anything about them, to make such sweeping statements?

Apparently he didn't know them either; he turned off the lights before spraying the bullets into the room. He didn't want to see them as individuals. He wanted to see them as symbols of his personal problems. And apparently, in your book, they're part of the blame because they're symbols of society's problems. Because they're women who go to the gym and this makes them self-identified targets. It doesn't matter if it doesn't tell you anything about what they were like in the rest of their lives or what they meant to people.

"what does that say about the "excellent intuition" of women? It tells me they can be a bunch of cold, superficial bitches, more concerned with their weight, or their "pampered" dogs, than ever seeing the decent man standing right before them."

So because of your friend's experience you're talking about ALL women. That ALL women are superficial bitches? So your personal circumstances, and those of your friend, are the entire truth of the world?

Wake up, pal. There are many women out there dating or married to men who do not look like Adonis, and are not suave or rich. There are many ordinary decent guys out there with ordinary decent women. There are many good people in the world who do good things - and yes, they might also go to the gym. Exercise is healthy.

(Also, I'm amused at how guys whine about superficiality, when they themselves also make at least initial surface judgments about women - the size of their breasts, etc. But again, there are people - men and women - who bother to get to know each other on a deeper level too. Hopefully you'll encounter more of them.); 8/6/09, 11:36 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: My Russian friend Jackoff is always unwrapping a new girl.

I don’t know how he does it.; 8/6/09, 11:40 AM
chuck b. said...: The funny thing is (ahem), if he'd ended up on death row instead, he surely would have gotten a few marriage proposals.; 8/6/09, 11:41 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Why don’t we just send Clinton to save these men.; 8/6/09, 11:45 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Sure… we could send Clinton to save the women.

But the men? No such luck.; 8/6/09, 11:48 AM
Bissage said...: I lived in hopes of meeting people who would overlook my outward appearance and respect me for whatever good qualities I had to offer. If anyone had ever shown a little kindness, I would have returned it, I think, at least one hundred times over. And for that one person's sake, I would have made piece with the whole world.

Do you understand what it means never to see a kind or happy face? You could imagine then, perhaps, how such bitterness led me, at last, to the brink of another kind or life. I decided that, if I could not inspire love, which was my deepest hope, I would instead cause fear.

Deep; 8/6/09, 11:50 AM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: (Also, I'm amused at how guys whine about superficiality, when they themselves also make at least initial surface judgments about women....)

Yes. Notice that he wanted DESIRABLE women. It was fine for him to cross women off his list if they didn't meet his criteria, but no woman that he wanted was supposed to not want him.

Crack: "It tells me they can be a bunch of cold, superficial bitches, more concerned with their weight, or their 'pampered' dogs, than ever seeing the decent man standing right before them." Do you think that there are not lonely women with sparkling personalities out there? They don't look like an airbrushed Sports Illustrated swimsuit model, so they are potted plants where superficial men are concerned. You were complaining earlier about how only select men at the beach got stared at - do you stare at every woman at the beach equally? Fat women? Older women? Disabled women? Women who aren't pretty? After you stare at them, do you walk up and initiate conversation, because they might be lonely?

I go to the beach by myself every now and then. Nobody stares at me. I don't give a damn, because I don't go to the beach to be stared at. If I did, I'd be SOL. Should I make sweeping statements about the superficiality of men?

Crack, you have disappointed me today.; 8/6/09, 11:52 AM
Shanna said...: Crack, you have disappointed me today

Yeah, I had a whole response written and then I just thought why bother. It seems like sometimes men get on this "women are superficial and mean because they don't love" whoever, and meanwhile they are every bit as superficial as the people they complain about. It's maddening.

The whole thing is too sad.; 8/6/09, 11:59 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: This guy was oviously not up to the latest communication standards in love routers.

A weak signal for example may yield top priority so you ensure the best connection.

It’s counterintuitive... don’t call b4 the 3rd day after the first date, when to twitter as opposed to live call.

It’s complicated. The technology is always advancing.; 8/6/09, 12:02 PM
Smilin' Jack said...: Yes. Notice that he wanted DESIRABLE women.

Yes, men desire desirable women--aren't they silly?

Exhibit A for women having excellent intuition.

Uh huh...Charlie Manson had no problem attracting quite a bevy of women in his time. O.J. still has no problem getting dates.; 8/6/09, 12:07 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: EKatz,

I've said what I said and I'm sticking by it - and with, almost, half a century under my belt, I don't think i'm too far off.

I work with the public, in sales, and I can count the number of times I've seen a woman looking at her husband, with love, on one hand. I watched one guy's wife humiliate him - in front of all of us - after he spent two weeks trying to buy her the most expensive thing we had for her birthday. I even went out and bought her a card, and had everybody I work with sign it, only to see this bitch get haughty because this gift wasn't exactly what she wanted - when she had no idea she was going to receive it. I kept the fucking card.

One more thing:

I just quit that job because of guys who "make at least initial surface judgments about women - the size of their breasts, etc." I hated working there - and, as I was leaving, the secretaries told me they thought I was a great guy and they understood why I wouldn't want to work with such animals. But, to be perfectly honest with you (as the examples I gave you, above, makes clear) women, generally, are no better. Just as closed-minded, looking out for themselves, and trying to see what they can get - even if it's "on the side". It's my observation that our culture's that's fucked up - like the idea we should be spending money at the gym when running, stretching, etc., are all things anyopne can do, outdoors, for free. It makes no sense and explains our economic crisis better than most theories - we're just not a practical, thinking, people any longer.

Buying into the idea that there's anything special about (post-feminist) women - or there's, fundamentally, something wrong with men - like we don't get enough hugs - just ain't The Macho Response; 8/6/09, 12:08 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: He was probably trying too hard.; 8/6/09, 12:09 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Crack, since this particular guy was a murderer of total strangers I think it's pretty safe to say that he wasn't just some lonely Joe with a sparkling personality.

As to people being superficial, that may be largely true, but it certainly doesn't prevent homely people from having relationships. Look around. I don't see a bunch of supermodel couples waltzing around out there. I see people in every size, shape, look, and all manner of physical gifts and defects hooked up and forming families. A guy's looks aren't going to hold him back... unless, of course, looks matter tremendously to him but he doesn't think they should matter to women.; 8/6/09, 12:09 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I think I get it.

To show how much they love this country libs burn the flag now and again.

This guy’s protest was just giving it a little extra ;); 8/6/09, 12:13 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Yes, men desire desirable women--aren't they silly?

You can almost certainly translate this guy's prose as wanting "hot" women. So, here's this superficial guy who hates women because he thinks they're superficial when really he's an asocial psycho who people find off-putting and who is willing to murder strangers.

And let's be real, surely everyone posting here has seen countless cases of the guy who talks about how pissed he is that no girls like him, but he always only wants the prettiest girl in the room and the attention of others doesn't count.; 8/6/09, 12:18 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: ..surely everyone posting here has seen countless cases of the guy who talks about how pissed he is that no girls like him, but he always only wants the prettiest girl in the room and the attention of others doesn't count.

Cat fight ;); 8/6/09, 12:22 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Heh. No cat fight, but way to give a bunch of girls a totally irrational hatred of another girl.; 8/6/09, 12:28 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Freeman Hunt,

Yea, I know, but generalizing is all we can do with this situation - lots of women "he didn't know" probably ignored this guy. My take on it is like Columbine:

You're going to have a hard time convincing me, after enduring High School, that that school was just filled with little angels and the "Trenchcoat Mafia" were just devils waiting to happen. No, no, no. That school was just like 99% of the others, filled with cliques who thought they were better than everyone else, picking on the fat kids, not inviting the geeks to parties, etc. They're a bunch of little evil bastards, marinating in a NewAge culture that tells them - since Mom and Dad are divorced, etc. - you don't have to care about anyone, your word doesn't have to mean anything, and all that "love the person on the inside" shit is crap. I mean, shoot the messenger if you'd like, but those memes are always going to play out in ways nobody intended. The things our parents told us - even if they didn't live up to them themselves - are true. If we abandon them, as though they didn't spring from the knowledge that *life has parameters*, then we reap what we sow.

And that's exactly what I see happening out there. Like i said, "sorry".; 8/6/09, 12:29 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Seriously though.

What girl in her right mind is going to go out with a guy named Sodini?

The name sounds-off small alarm bells.

(this is a tough crowd today ;); 8/6/09, 12:30 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I should be more precise and write "foster" not "give."; 8/6/09, 12:33 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Columbine happened in a high school, a closed system. This man was an adult in the world, a totally open system.

Lots of people are lonely, but hardly anyone opens fire on strangers. The latter type will get no sympathy from me.; 8/6/09, 12:36 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Yea, I know, but generalizing is all we can do with this situation - lots of women "he didn't know" probably ignored this guy.

Actually, we don't have to generalize at all. The man perceived that he was being ignored by desirable women, and he decided to kill a bunch of strangers. Nuff said.

What, the burden was on the "desirable" women to come up to him and initiate conversation, ask him out, etc? He wanted sex - "desirable" women were somehow obligated to give that to him so he wouldn't kill them? Please. The man inhabited a video game, except that for his victims, it was real life.

You can't always get what you want. That is a universal truth.; 8/6/09, 12:38 PM
EKatz said...: "Buying into the idea that there's anything special about (post-feminist) women - or there's, fundamentally, something wrong with men..."

I don't buy into this idea that there's something fundamentally wrong with men or that women are angelic beings; who said that here? Men and women are both capable of good and evil... and superficiality. What bothered me earlier was the attempt to use the murder victims as mere symbols of a societal problem when in fact they might have been great women; it was an unwillingness to even imagine them as individuals with any positive qualities that bothered me (or the fact that they went to the gym being an automatic poor reflection on them).

Also, it's worth answering Laura's questions, at least honestly to yourself if not on this blog before you see yourself as an enlightened outsider in relation to this superficial culture of ours:
"You were complaining earlier about how only select men at the beach got stared at - do you stare at every woman at the beach equally? Fat women? Older women? Disabled women? Women who aren't pretty? After you stare at them, do you walk up and initiate conversation, because they might be lonely?"

Also it's not just our culture. For ages and ages across cultures people have made judgments about one another based on traits that aren't all too deep - it's a tendency that some people work on overcoming, while others are content to stick with the snap judgments. This tendency towards superficiality can mean great pain for people (and there are ways both healthy and unhealthy for dealing with this pain). But as others have said here, there are also plenty of people who are not physically attractive or are not desirable in other ways deemed important by society, who still make a good life for themselves and form good relationships.; 8/6/09, 12:40 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Hey.. what if the notoriety of this Sodini translates into good pr for..

Never mind.

Ahem ahem, lets not kick a man when he is down Freeman. Let’s remember Sodidni probably had a mom too.; 8/6/09, 12:43 PM
Smilin' Jack said...: You can almost certainly translate this guy's prose as wanting "hot" women. So, here's this superficial guy who hates women because he thinks they're superficial...

Wanting a "hot" woman is no more superficial than wanting a woman. After all, the shape of one's genitalia is just another "superficial" physical characteristic. If, say, a sparkling personality is to be the sine qua non of attraction, everyone should be bisexual. But sex is not a dinner party, it's intensely and intimately physical, and physical characteristics do matter, and there's no reason they shouldn't.

As Schopenhauer wrote, you can do what you want, but you can't want what you want.; 8/6/09, 12:45 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Way to miss the point, Jack.

Sodini was only interested in the subset of women he deemed "desirable". He felt justified in not wanting the others. That's fine, except that he then passed judgment on the "desirable" women for not including him in the subset of men they wanted. And killed a bunch of people because that irked him.

Or are you saying that men can pick and choose the women they want, but a woman is obligated to accept any man who looks at her?; 8/6/09, 12:49 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Freeman Hunt,

I see you're doing it, too: Guys want "hot" women, huh?

Not too long ago, I met a guy at work. He noticed I was different from the animals, so he asked me if I'd go out with his sister - whose husband left her after she lost both breasts and a leg to cancer - I said sure, I'm divorced, and a bit bitter myself.

Flash forward a few days, and this guy discovers I'm a conservative. Next thing I know, he's blocking my sales opportunities, talking to Human Resources (who, eventually, wanted to talk to me) and there's these mysterious flyers showing up - where customers can see them - saying "Crack Emcee for the next Republican President, 2013" (I have them hanging on my wall as I write this). I stayed at the job until I was number one and then quit - my antagonist, who's known around there as a "really nice guy", is (and always will be) number six.

My only point is people are fucked up, and until they're ready to recognize it, all this "I'm beautiful" stuff (as some chick song I recently heard wails) is bullshit. Americans, now, are a bunch of sad clowns, frantically applying more and more make-up to try and hide the ugly truth.; 8/6/09, 12:49 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: I guess our point, Crack, is that Sodini was messed up.

You are trying to use what he did to smear the innocent women he killed.; 8/6/09, 12:52 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Ekatz,

I'm using the whole episode as a symbol - and it is. If "lonely man shoots lots of women at the gym" ain't a symbol, then I'm missing the definition of symbolism.

I gotta go - catch you guys later.; 8/6/09, 12:57 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I tell you if this guy's name had been Nick Markakis or Jarrod Saltalamacchia none of this would have happened.

Obama needs to revamp the way we name babies.; 8/6/09, 12:57 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: "I'm using the whole episode as a symbol - and it is. If "lonely man shoots lots of women at the gym" ain't a symbol, then I'm missing the definition of symbolism."

I think you're missing the definition of symbolism.

If you are sitting at, say, a McDonalds, enjoying a quiet cheeseburger, and somebody comes in and shoots the place up (as you may recall, this has been done), what will you then be a symbol of?

Or to put it another way, if those women had not gone to the gym, would any problem Sodini had, have been solved?; 8/6/09, 1:05 PM
Caroline said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/6/09, 1:06 PM
Smilin' Jack said...: Or are you saying that men can pick and choose the women they want, but a woman is obligated to accept any man who looks at her?

We all have a right to be "superficial," and are, and can't help it. We want what we want, and we can't want what we don't want. Superficiality was not this guy's problem--being a nut was.; 8/6/09, 1:09 PM
Revenant said...: You seem to see it as a guy who became a killer because of neglect. I see it as a guy who was neglected because there was something off about him, that same something that led him to kill.

Well said, Shanna. That's exactly correct, in my opinion.; 8/6/09, 1:14 PM
rhhardin said...: Yesterday's blow to self esteem

PHNOM PENH, Cambodia (AP) - The Cambodian government said Monday it will not allow a "Miss Landmine" beauty pageant to take place later this week, calling it an insult to the disabled.; 8/6/09, 1:19 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Anybody who ever seen Hanoi Jane with the sexy voice and the sexy outfit, telling men to inhale and exhale, squeeze and release knows they had it coming for a long time.

This is a tough crowd today ;); 8/6/09, 1:34 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: "Would you really expect women to ignore their intuition and just run off with any lonely guy?"

Which is an awesome explanation for all the guys in prison who have acquired girlfriends and spouses from the outside.

The sheer number of women who are attracted specifically to (often violent) sociopaths is Exhibit A for the defense in this "debate".

Intuition shmintuition.

For the record, the nutcase in question didn't smoke the chicks that he actually was with from God knows how long ago - but ones who had nothing to do with that. So there's technically not a valid argument for rejecting him based on safety concerns.; 8/6/09, 1:40 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Look.. poor Sodini even had a blogg .. clearly a last ditch effort to get in touch with his feminine side.

What a guy ;); 8/6/09, 1:48 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I’m just saying don’t hate a guy because he loves woman.

That’s all I’m saying.; 8/6/09, 1:52 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Montana Legend, and what is that "sheer number" of women who are attracted to guys in prison? 100? 1000? 2000? Out of 150,000,000 female Americans?

So you think that for Person A's intuition that Person B is violent, to be valid, Person B would have to offer violence to Person A only?

Sodini was a violent person, yes? So if a woman was not attracted to him b/c she didn't want a violent man, then was she not right not to be attracted to him? You're going to use the disturbed women who are attracted to death row murderers to demonstrate how stupid and messed up women are?; 8/6/09, 1:53 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: And maybe we should talk about the sheer numbers of violent sociopaths that apparently are in prison, for those disturbed women to be attracted to. If this is a debate with some kind of defense.; 8/6/09, 1:55 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I'm sure if he was gay everybody would have probably.. most likely liked him. Up and down how fabulous he was..

His only sin was that he was straight ;); 8/6/09, 1:55 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: And maybe we should talk about the sheer numbers of violent sociopaths that apparently are in prison, for those disturbed women to be attracted to.

Ahh.. but are they as available as the Sodinis Adonis of this cruel world?; 8/6/09, 2:00 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I match one Sodini to all of your Favios out there!; 8/6/09, 2:02 PM
Shanna said...: Women who go after serial killers have a screw loose, just like this guy. Says nothing about women in general, any more than this crazy person says all IT guys are killers.; 8/6/09, 2:04 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Look I don’t want you to get me wrong. I’m not defending this nut Sodini anymore than I’m telling you Whodini is still alive.

All I’m saying is.. I’m single and I’m available ;); 8/6/09, 2:09 PM
knox said...: The sheer number of women who are attracted specifically to (often violent) sociopaths is Exhibit A for the defense in this "debate".

sigh.

Sodini's behavior is not typical behavior.

Neither is that of women who date sociopaths.

Why are we trying to draw larger truths about humanity from a bunch of freakshows?; 8/6/09, 2:10 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: knox ... exactly.

Lem, I'm not single or available, and I can't speak for anyone but myself. I will tell you that if I were available, I would not be attracted to a man who tries to turn every cottonpickin thing into a joke, especially a horror show such as this, in the face of repeated serious communications from other people. It kind of goes to the social skills thing - when you see your jokes falling flat, it means that your audience is not receptive. Either they're not in the mood, or the jokes are inappropriate.; 8/6/09, 2:14 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: There are an infinite number of individual variables that go into attraction, some more or less prevalent than others. But certainly the "bad boy" component is far from the least common of these.

Whether or not being clinically disturbed contributes significantly to being attracted to variables that are unhealthy for us, or that turn out to be unhealthy for us, is up for debate.; 8/6/09, 2:24 PM
Chris Althouse Cohen said...: There's gotta be some angry, psychotic, bulldog-looking lady who would've connected with him on some level and whipped him into submission. He probably just went for those who were obviously out of his league (like anyone normally considered dateable) and couldn't understand why "all" women reject him.; 8/6/09, 2:29 PM
Steven said...: "I take it that means there 120 million unattractive women out there!"

Or, you know, he simply applied reasonable filters on the age of "desirable" women? There are about 30 million total women in the whole country within the age bracket of 41-55 (that is, his age plus-or-minus seven years).

Presumably his age category standards weren't that restrictive, but I find it very hard to claim he was superficial because he didn't include the 30 million girls under age 16 in his estimate of the "desirable".; 8/6/09, 2:46 PM
holdfast said...: "when running, stretching, etc., are all things anyopne can do, outdoors, for free. It makes no sense and explains our economic crisis better than most theories"

-Crack, you obviously do not live in the northeast during the winter.

This whole tradgedy reminded me of the Marc Lebine (a/k/a amil Rodrigue Gharbi) massacre, though this guy was thankfully less efficient than Lepine.; 8/6/09, 2:46 PM
Alex said...: I just find it fascinating that the killer didn't find it the least bit ironic that he had crossed off 10s of millions of women as "undesirable", and he complained about being undesired. He was as bad as those stereotypical women he hated.; 8/6/09, 2:58 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Lem, I'm not single or available, and I can't speak for anyone but myself. I will tell you that if I were available, I would not be attracted to a man who tries to turn every cottonpickin thing into a joke, especially a horror show such as this, in the face of repeated serious communications from other people. It kind of goes to the social skills thing - when you see your jokes falling flat, it means that your audience is not receptive. Either they're not in the mood, or the jokes are inappropriate.

Thanks for the polite rejection. I think.; 8/6/09, 2:59 PM
Alex said...: Lem said:

All I’m saying is.. I’m single and I’m available ;)

Get thee to a gym and work on those rock-hard abs...; 8/6/09, 3:00 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Lem, it wasn't a rejection, because you didn't approach me, so there was nothing to reject.

Consider it a bit of gratuitous unasked-for advice. Scan it, give it a half-moment's thought, accept it if useful, discard it if not.; 8/6/09, 3:02 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Is it possible that my poor attempt at humor could also have been thinly vailed rejection of the comments beign made?

Maybe not .. since I just oviously thought of that ;); 8/6/09, 3:04 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: not everything can be told the same old way Laura.

i dont want to be boring.; 8/6/09, 3:06 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: They weren't very thinly veiled.

It appears to me that either (1) you thought the situation was funny, or (2) you objected to any serious discussion of it. Or both.

You aren't the only person who does this kind of thing, BTW. I guess I'm not as good at ignoring today as I usually am.; 8/6/09, 3:07 PM
Synova said...: "...get credit for being such "nice" people, when they didn't even have the grace to say "Hi" to someone?"

I don't know if anyone responded to this yet, Crack, but sometimes you don't say "Hi" because you're an unfeeling jerk, and sometimes you don't say "Hi" because you did once and it took two weeks to get the guy to stop fixating on you. Maybe it's something that builds on itself so that an otherwise normal person gets crazy but maybe there is a pre-existing condition.

Kind, caring, women live with a knowledge of their vulnerability every day. Someone who gets too friendly just because you smile at him or say hello is outright TERRIFYING. I can't overstate that.

Not to say at all that some women are not bitches. You know they are. So do I. But I also know that when I was young there were times when it broke my heart and made me sick to my stomach and I prayed to God (not figuratively, but actually) that the young men at my school would be kind and hold out friendship to a particular young man with whom it was impossible for any young woman to be kind because the young man wasn't *well*. It didn't mean that I lacked compassion for him or was unkind. It was that it was not possible for me to *be* kind without that kindness being misunderstood. It had to be the guys offering friendship or else, perhaps, a woman who was unavailable.; 8/6/09, 3:11 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I rather be rebuked than boring.

Wait, no

Actually.. I rather be rebuked than ignored.

So I guess t should thank you.; 8/6/09, 3:13 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Its ovious I’m not as eloquent as some here.
Tough. I’ll have to live with that.

But I’ll be dammed if I’m not work my way up the sycamore tree even if I look like a dam fool doing it.; 8/6/09, 3:18 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Thank you, Synova. Exactly.; 8/6/09, 3:19 PM
Alex said...: The problem with sociopaths like this is he believes(maybe Crack also) that women exist to be consumed by them. He never saw women as 3-dimensional beings with hopes, fears and problems. They simply were objects of desire.; 8/6/09, 3:29 PM
Synova said...: "Yes. Notice that he wanted DESIRABLE women. It was fine for him to cross women off his list if they didn't meet his criteria, but no woman that he wanted was supposed to not want him."

One of my husband's best friends and my friend in college (he actually lived with us for a while) was a brilliant guy, a really *nice* guy, beyond goofy looking, and couldn't get a girl.

We lost track of him over the years and I hope he found someone and has made a family. At the least, I hope he never went off the deep end.

In any case... he was like this. He could never get the attention of a girl but the only girls he ever looked at were the tens. He's maybe a two appearance-wise, and he doesn't even consider anyone who is more than a degree or two south of super-model? What's up with that?

I could never decide if this was deliberate self-sabotage or what. Was he afraid and this was his way to stay safe and risk free? No *real* rejection because he never decided to approach a girl who was possible?

He was brilliant, and nice, and funny, without any major bad habits, and absolutely employable (which does matter) and you'd think he'd understand to look beyond the surface of the glam'ed up cheer-leaders to notice that some of the mousy girl-nerds who might have appreciated him even while meeting him on the intellectual level he occupied were actually rather shapely and cute.

I hope he eventually managed to see it.; 8/6/09, 3:34 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Ok lets put it this way.

What I don’t understand is why we insist in extrapolating desirable outcomes from events like this?

When there are so many others that do the job just fine.

Just so Laura is happy ;); 8/6/09, 3:35 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: By calling extra attention to this we inadvertently and inappropriately validate it.; 8/6/09, 3:37 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I got to go now mysefl..

to be continued.; 8/6/09, 3:38 PM
Alex said...: Synova - you just reiterated my previous point. Too many guys who are below 5 only look at women who are 10s. It's called "being out of your league buddy" for a good reason.; 8/6/09, 3:40 PM
Synova said...: And I should say... I've always doubted that I was pretty enough so that being his friend was a risk for me, but I realize that I was not available because I was either dating or married to his good friend at the time.

So pretty enough or not, I was able to *be* his friend.; 8/6/09, 3:42 PM
Alex said...: I can't believe this guy went through his entire 30s pining after 9s & 10s, never did anything to rectify his own personality. Sounds like a typical selfish asshole, it was always about what he wanted. He wasted all that time, letting the rage build and build. The outcome itself was never in doubt, but I hope it serves as an object lesson to average guys in their late 20s, FIX yourself first.; 8/6/09, 3:44 PM
Alex said...: BTW by "fixing", I don't necessarily imply getting washboard abs. I mean fix your personality, stop thinking YOU are the center of the universe and have some fucking empathy for your fellow human beings.; 8/6/09, 3:45 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Having just returned from 4 days in Reno looking at hot rods with my wonderful husband, and being disconnected from the internet (a pretty good thing IMO),I have a a few things to say regarding Crack Emcee's comments and the terrible incident.

First: Crack. Get over yourself and your wife's bitchy actions. Maybe, just maybe, you might want to examine your own soul and see if you bear some of the responsibility for your situation. It seems that everyone besides you is to blame.

Second: Crack, you need to hang out with a better class of people. Maybe it is something to do with the geographic area that you are in where people ARE superficial.

Third: There are plenty of men and women who are in love and have remained so for decades. In Reno, during the week and before the huge blowout crowds arrive on the weekend, the average hot rod aficionados were either middle aged couples walking along holding hands or young people who obviously live locally and had children who were enjoying the event.

For every bitchy woman or weirdo guy there are hundreds of thousands of happy, loving, adjusted people.

The other ladies have pointed out that our deranged killer was only looking for the "desirable" women and overlooking the hundreds of women who would probably have been good matches for him. But....alas....he fixated on what was beyond his reach and ignored the opportunities that might have come his way if he had only been realistic.

Not every woman can have the most "desirable" man in the room either.

I guess it depends on what your definition of desirable is. If it is only the outside of the package even if the contents are shit, well....you get what you deserve. My definition of desirable has much more to do with the character of the person.

Sure it is great if the packaging is a good as the interior, but just remember, the packaging will fade away and get crumpled in time. The inside of the package is what counts.; 8/6/09, 3:55 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Research shows that men have an emotional reaction to women they consider physically attractive. Women notice other women whom they find attractive as well, but the reaction is not an emotional one.

I've dated/been involved with women that were considered attractive, but made a conscious decision five years ago to overlook appearance - especially as it became more and more apparent that very good looks are conducive to a shallow personality. Women who are perceived as "10"s are well aware of the advantages this confers them and tend to accomodate their personalities (in a narcissistic, downward direction) in response to this fact.

This worked well for me until about four months ago when I was pursued by a very vivacious, very attractive and intelligent woman working and living in the States as a research fellow. We thought we were in love. Until one week when things didn't go absolutely perfectly (both between us and for her personally). Before this she had indicate a sincere long-term interest.

I now find it impossible to accomodate the criteria I preferred before I met her. The same sense of comfort that she said she found in me used to be #1 on my list of what to find in a woman. I also used to be incapable of noting whether I personally found a woman physically very attractive or not until deeper feelings were involved (which, I know, makes me atypical). But I am utterly struck by how unattractive everybody looks to me now, which was never the case in the aftermath of previous break-ups.; 8/6/09, 3:57 PM
Alex said...: DBQ - hear hear! If that psycho had been willing to be less superficial 15 years ago, 3 people might be alive right now.; 8/6/09, 3:58 PM
Alex said...: montana - so you can only contemplate lucking out with a perfect 10 from here on out? A 7 with all the other criteria just won't do?; 8/6/09, 4:00 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: I suppose the other factor was the fact that she was more satisfying to be with in bed than any other woman I've ever been with. That definitely played a role.

Americans are rote in their preferences. There is nothing like a sense of confidence, passion and an unapologetic will to focus on mutual pleasure in one's lovemaking. Low-pitched descriptions/utterings and other vocalizations also help, as does a nice accent.

Yes, you should all be jealous.; 8/6/09, 4:04 PM
Alex said...: Yes, you should all be jealous.

LOL, if you insist! Right now I'd be satisfied if I got a hug much less all that other stuff.; 8/6/09, 4:05 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: "so you can only contemplate lucking out with a perfect 10 from here on out? A 7 with all the other criteria just won't do?"

The funny thing is that, as with the others, I didn't find her VERY attractive until the involvement deepened. She actually seemed a bit tired when we first met. But I could tell there was something there.

Even model "10"s don't look attractive to me right now. (As before). There has to be something in the personality to bring it out.

I also think the fact that she found me very attractive (physically) and had no problem mentioning the importance of that fact had something to do with the way I'm processing all of this.; 8/6/09, 4:07 PM
Alex said...: montana:

so what you're really saying is that "she was a goddess because she found me studly". Not that there's anything wrong with that line of reasoning!; 8/6/09, 4:08 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Hugs are good. Make sure to develop platonic friendships with women of any degree of attractiveness - maybe you were once involved with them maybe not. Find someone who will provide a good shoulder to lean on every now and then and an ear to listen with. It will provide perspective and hopefully the added benefit of steering you away from focusing on the tricks women play to mess with mens' minds - both in terms of appearance and other games. They will also give you an idea of how other women you are seeing are good for you or instead may be up to something less healthy and noble.; 8/6/09, 4:11 PM
knox said...: Until one week when things didn't go absolutely perfectly (both between us and for her personally). Before this she had indicate a sincere long-term interest.

That sucks. I mean that sincerely. Fortunately, you found out she was secretly a loser before it was *really* too late.

The world is full of people who can't get past one bad relationship. Don't let her do that to you.; 8/6/09, 4:14 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: She was a goddess because her kisses were so passionate, creative and fun that they brought me a deep sense of satisfaction, and left a slightly awkward smile on my face that seemed to provide her with a sense of accomplishment, and an even bigger smile.; 8/6/09, 4:14 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: That's precisely why it's easier for me to understand that women get hung up on traits in guys that aren't necessarily the healthiest, Knox.

To this day, I've known shallow seductresses with whom I'm always surprised to keep finding other traits about them that I can still admire nonetheless - regardless of how far I'd like to think their values lie from my own.; 8/6/09, 4:16 PM
Nichevo said...: Again, I am only tentatively aware that somebody went on a rampage and killed a bunch of women somewhere. I just want to repeat, with Steve, that 30 million out of a US population of 150 million women, many of whom are underage, overage, married, etc., is not necessarily too selective. 20% of all US women - probably 40-50% or more of all available women - is a lot of women.

And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Women, some women at least, seem to find me much more attractive than I do myself. I haven't seen a photo of the killer but for every warthog there is a lady warthog.

One wonders what outlets if any this man found for release. Prostitutes, porn, prayer, physical exercise, cold showers, what?; 8/6/09, 4:17 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: And thanks for the kind words.; 8/6/09, 4:17 PM
knox said...: Kind, caring, women live with a knowledge of their vulnerability every day. Someone who gets too friendly just because you smile at him or say hello is outright TERRIFYING. I can't overstate that.

I used to work in a bookstore. I was stalked by a customer for years. Literally. After I was merely cordial in a professional way.

Since then I am far more reticent to be friendly to strange men. It's true, women have to be careful. And some men *do* radiate scary vibes.; 8/6/09, 4:21 PM
Shanna said...: Thank you, Synova. Exactly.

Seconded. I was thinking about making this point, but couldn't put it into words.; 8/6/09, 4:24 PM
knox said...: To this day, I've known shallow seductresses with whom I'm always surprised to keep finding other traits about them that I can still admire nonetheless

Well all jerks have *some* good traits. As long as you remember that they are ultimately no good for you, and don't get sucked in... it's all good right?; 8/6/09, 4:28 PM
Chennaul said...: montana-

This:I've dated/been involved with women that were considered attractive, but made a conscious decision five years ago to overlook appearance -

Probably got you -

That:shallow seductresses

If you are playing games with yourself and fighting what would be your natural inclinations then you might be-presenting as- "hard to get".

Once they get past that..well you're attracting what you supposedly want the least.; 8/6/09, 4:43 PM
Chennaul said...: Don't game yourself and maybe you won't get gamed-at least that's what I think might be going on from the brief read here.; 8/6/09, 4:45 PM
Alex said...: Don't game yourself and maybe you won't get gamed-at least that's what I think might be going on from the brief read here.

Exactly. I think game-players attract game-players. Sincere will seek out sincere. That's thew way the cookie crumbles. Sincere people also tend to be less demanding in terms of looks.; 8/6/09, 4:47 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Lem said...

Ok lets put it this way.

What I don’t understand is why we insist in extrapolating desirable outcomes from events like this?

When there are so many others that do the job just fine.

Just so Laura is happy ;)

What?

8/6/09 3:35 PM
Blogger Lem said...

By calling extra attention to this we inadvertently and inappropriately validate it.

Well, I could see your point here, except that by making irrelevant and glib cracks it appeared to me that you were inappropriately dismissing the seriousness of what happened here. It's not fiction, it's not a funny story or film noir movie or dark short story.

I think there are three undesirable reactions that could be had to this story: (1) make Sodini out to be some kind of tragic hero, (2) blame the women for what happened to them, and (3) act like it's just a bunch of women nobody here knows, so no big deal. Well, I've not seen anyone here try to make Sodini out to be a tragic hero, which inappropriate validation would do.; 8/6/09, 5:02 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: ..it appeared to me that you were inappropriately dismissing the seriousness of what happened here.

I really dont know if that was my intent, to be honest, and I also didn't know we were in the seriousness blog.

Again I'm sorry I keep offending your sensibilities.

You are not the only one.. Women just don't like me.; 8/6/09, 5:16 PM
Shanna said...: Women just don't like me.

Ok, that gets half a point for funny, half a point for creepy. Be careful :)

Seriously, though, I think there is a reason the women on this blog have been commenting more than usual on this story.; 8/6/09, 5:21 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: I appreciate the advice, Guys(?). But honestly, I think I can make a distinction between game players and non-players. The problem is that this one, despite her (nominal) professional accomplishments, was a bit immature for 30, the youngest of the family (so prone to manipulation), and might have had problems seeing the difference. Probably didn't know herself all that well. Relied on mom (a psychologist) for at least a free hour's worth of instruction (not advice, but "instruction") just about every night.

She seemed to honestly love the romantic declarations and exchanges. And she was out of a previous LTR long enough for me to think it might not just be a rebound.

I think the problem is that she was just plain immature (emotionally). I hoped it was just a sign of being from a more passionate culture. Although I looked past it, as I did some select other things, I think that the line between serious and frivolous was just a little bit too blurry for her. But both inclinations existed in her, obviously. She wanted me to (and got me to) spend time with her and her family.

I think I was just dealing with someone who, much like I might have done in my twenties, gave out mixed signals and didn't have a good idea of whether something was potentially permanent or just long-term.

Her loss, though. Thanks for the perspective.; 8/6/09, 5:24 PM
Alex said...: montana - the part that creeps me out is the part where she needed 1 hour of instruction from mommy EACH night. That goes beyond immature to weird.; 8/6/09, 5:25 PM
Alex said...: You are not the only one.. Women just don't like me.

Lem - now you're creeping out everyone.; 8/6/09, 5:26 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: I really dont know if that was my intent, to be honest, and I also didn't know we were in the seriousness blog.

Again I'm sorry I keep offending your sensibilities.

You could not read seriousness cues in the comments that your jokes came in between?

You aren't offending my sensibilities. I actually responded b/c I thought it was better to express why your comments were being ignored, rather than to keep ignoring them. You don't strike me as the kind of person who would be crass just for the hell of it.; 8/6/09, 5:30 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Glad to know I wasn't the only one who took note of the talk sessions. (And things she told me later make that sound even worse).

But what do you do in such a situation? Just get out? You enjoy what's going on, and you can't usually critique (some are so sensitive that a mere question counts to them as a critique). So you take note.

And talk about it on the web later.; 8/6/09, 5:34 PM
Alex said...: montanta - what I've learned is that if you feel like you have to walk on eggshells around a woman, you're better off with another woman.; 8/6/09, 5:36 PM
KCFleming said...: Men generally don't understand (or even reject) the fear many woman walk around with everywhere they go.

It took me a long time not to take it personally that women decline to smile or say hi. Too many creeps take any acknowledgement of their existence as a yes, I have been waiting my whole life for you, finally!!!.

What a drag, seems to me. But what do I know?

Anyway, finally seeing that fear, I try to protect women when needed, as inobtrusively as possible. Like making sure a creepy guy knows he's being watched, or making sure she made it into her building on an iffy street.

Yeah, weird hobby.; 8/6/09, 5:37 PM
Shanna said...: Anyway, finally seeing that fear, I try to protect women when needed, as inobtrusively as possible. Like making sure a creepy guy knows he's being watched, or making sure she made it into her building on an iffy street.

That's nice. I always think when you drop someone off at their house, you should wait for them to get in the door.

It's not like all women walk around terrified all the time, it's just a little more caution than men seem to need. For a while, my brother lived with me and he would actually leave the door unlocked when he left! And I actually had somebody try to break in the house (when I was home alone) who was scared away by the dog, but if he simply tried to open the door instead of getting ready to break in the window he would have found it unlocked. Gah! Guys just don't have to think about these things.; 8/6/09, 5:43 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Nice way to coddle and justify female insecurity, Pogo.

They're not children, you know.

As I've just related, some women not only know how to get beyond a realistic and appropriate sense of caution, but how to work their way all over others by figuring out how to get just what they want.

Did I mention my ex cried when the cable company said they might not be able to fix her DSL immediately.

Yes, it worked. She gave me the phone and I told them what to do.; 8/6/09, 5:43 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: So Pogo and I actually have something in common: The rescuer complex.; 8/6/09, 5:44 PM
Alex said...: Did I mention my ex cried when the cable company said they might not be able to fix her DSL immediately.

Amazing the things men will put up with if she's a tiger in bed.; 8/6/09, 5:45 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: You don't strike me as the kind of person who would be crass just for the hell of it.

Did you just compliment me? How dare you ;)

Most of the writing I've done here today was about me.

The subject, a childless, wifeless 44 year old man, is not very pleasant (you would have to be there).

I find that making myself the object of ridicule through this story creates in me an illusion of fellowship here. The monologue does that for me.; 8/6/09, 5:46 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: It's more fun successfully barking orders to the otherwise obstructive cable guy than walking down dark alleys.; 8/6/09, 5:47 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Gotta get social for an hour or two now. Ahh'll be baaack.; 8/6/09, 5:48 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I hate to make it sound like theraphy but I know of no other handy language for it.; 8/6/09, 5:50 PM
Alex said...: Lem - you coulda been a contender. You coulda been somebody...; 8/6/09, 5:54 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: ..you coulda been a contender. You coulda been somebody...

I hit over 300 w men in scoring position..

OMG that sounds so gay here.

BTW The Bosox better win tonight or else I'm going over there and .. ;); 8/6/09, 6:03 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: "I find that making myself the object of ridicule through this story creates in me an illusion of fellowship here. The monologue does that for me."

Making yourself the object of ridicule ... is that what you want?; 8/6/09, 6:09 PM
Alex said...: Making yourself the object of ridicule ... is that what you want?

He's looking for a pity party. I suggest not to feed him. Believe me, I've been down that road before, but at least I could site immaturity. I was in my 20s.; 8/6/09, 6:12 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: ..is that what you want?

Like they say.. anything for a laught.; 8/6/09, 6:13 PM
The Dude said...: Stating that men don't have to think about security is bullshit.

I always think about it, and take steps to protect myself.; 8/6/09, 6:17 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: I'm not pitying him.

I'm thinking that social skills come very naturally and easily to some people, and other people need to have things spelled out to them. It's no different than math, or grammar, or anything else.

If you want to have a substantive conversation, you have to be on the same page as the people you are conversing with. Otherwise you end up with a monolog on the side while everybody else talks around you. If that's what you want, fine, but if you're lonely, you might think of changing the way you communicate in case that's what is not working for you.; 8/6/09, 6:18 PM
Alex said...: Laura - I'm thinking with a lot of these misanthropic guys their inability to engage in a social discourse is a security blanket of sorts. It becomes a persona over the years and breaking out of it can be very traumatic.; 8/6/09, 6:22 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Alex, I can see how that could be.

I can also see how a person can honestly not know how to engage in some kinds of conversation. I've had to figure out, by trial and error, how to act in some situations that other people wouldn't have any difficulty with, and I still miss cues sometimes. So I don't think ill of anybody who possibly could use some straightforward advice.; 8/6/09, 6:26 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: If you want to have a substantive conversation, you have to be on the same page as the people you are conversing with.

Its not that easy Laura. My pace is too slow for some.
Not to mention the second language spelling problem.

The monologue just says I'm here.

How about that?; 8/6/09, 6:26 PM
Alex said...: I have to admit I'm not the type to arrive at a party and start shmoozing with everyone. My best hope is to come with somebody and be introduced. A few adult beverages later, and I'm fine. Parties are just not my thing.; 8/6/09, 6:27 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: So you actually are satisfied with just the monologue? It doesn't bother you to be ignored after all?; 8/6/09, 6:27 PM
Alex said...: Also if you ever notice, it's always the A-types that can work a room eith ease. They usually are very successful in their business/profession, everyone already knows that they're somebody important to begin with. But you take an average Joe like myself, and it would look ridiculous if I started working a room.; 8/6/09, 6:29 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Alex, I'm OK if I know that I have something in common with at least some of the people.

Usually the get-togethers I go to are with other technical people and we speak the same language. Mutually understood jargon is a great ice-breaker. We even have the same expressions on our faces. If I had to go to a party where people were more concerned with celebrities or clothes and makeup or whatever I'd probably never say a word.; 8/6/09, 6:29 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: It doesn't bother you to be ignored after all?

You didnt.; 8/6/09, 6:29 PM
KCFleming said...: "coddle and justify female insecurity"

Whatevs, dude.

If I see a woman behaving as if she is afraid, or there's an obvious stalking, it's my duty to help.

To hell with ignoring it.; 8/6/09, 6:31 PM
Alex said...: Laura - good point about the nature of the crowd at the get together. I definitely have an easier time at company events then weddings. Last time at a wedding I was accosted by several drunk women.; 8/6/09, 6:31 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: This is an irritable day for me, though.; 8/6/09, 6:31 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: I can't remember ever being at a wedding where alcohol was served.

Hm. One of those cultural things, I reckon.

Back in June I went out of town for a tech conference and spent the first evening happily talking about analytical chemistry with someone I'd only exchanged emails with. Had a couple of glasses of wine, I ordinarily don't drink at all. I enjoyed the hell out of that, sincerely.; 8/6/09, 6:34 PM
Alex said...: No drinks at a wedding? Is it a Southern thing not to serve alcohol at weddings? God, without the wine I would not have maintained my sanity for those 3 hours!; 8/6/09, 6:36 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: It's a Southern Baptist thing. And it spills over into other denominations in very small towns.

...Come to think of it, I do remember one Episcopalian wedding where wine was served at the reception. No one had more than a glass, though. That was in Vicksburg, MS.; 8/6/09, 6:38 PM
Alex said...: Laura - you see out here in the Puget Sound area if you don't drink enough wine the sheer obnoxiousness of it all will drive you batty.; 8/6/09, 6:39 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Well, that explains it. We are already batty. We have embraced our battiness and are perfectly OK with it.; 8/6/09, 6:41 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: Back from sailing, feel much better. There's too much here to answer individually (though I'm reading it all) but here's a few thoughts as I'm scrolling down:

Lem, you're funny. Don't let 'em get you down.

Freeman Hunt, "women's intuition" is bogus NewAge bullshit. I remember a woman who didn't want to go out with me, but eventually went on a date and spent half of it cursing and apologizing because - since she didn't think she'd like this "macho" man - she made a later date with someone else, and then didn't want to go. She went, but later *made it up* to me. I think a better phrase for what women do is "make assumptions" and we all know what that does, right? (ASS-U-ME). And for anyone to assume this guy was "violent" before he killed anyone - thus giving women a reason to reject him - is just more of the same. Assumptions are for assholes.

"Kind, caring, women live with a knowledge of their vulnerability every day."

Any woman who thinks there's anything special about living in fear of others, like men have to do every day, have no idea what it's like to be a man. As a matter of fact, if you're a man, it's much more likely that fear will manifest itself as a reality, at some point, so can it, ladies: I told you, you get no special treatment here. Generally speaking, you think you're special - "Daddy's Little Princess" and all that - and it's only when you get brought down a peg that you decide consider other people as being as special as you are.

Beta males, identifying with women more than the reality of being a guy, are worthless human beings. (Hello, Alex!)

Dust Bunny Queen, I didn't kill anybody (as my ex did) or cheat on anybody (as my ex did) and I always took my wife's hand everywhere we went (while I, a guy, was supposed to take the world at face value) so, no, I'm not going to do much soul-searching about my role in the crazy lady contest. I refer to my ex a lot because she was the ultimate NewAger - there was no NewAge shit she wasn't into, so she could attract a large swath of "friends" from the NewAge/progressive/liberal camp for me to study - and the people I hang out with are fine. The people I work with? Debatable. And most of the superficial people I've known were in San Francisco, where I ain't anymore, though NewAge "progressives" are EVERYWHERE, so there's no escape. Sorry, Freeman, but there is no "open system" in NewAge America: My grocery store is demanding I "go green". Television programs and movies have NewAge shit written into their scripts. Oprah is my country's "moral authority", etc. All it leads up to, in my opinion, is a war - which is what I think this shooter was getting at. Not everyone is going to stand for this shit, and shouldn't have to - it's wrong.

"I am utterly struck by how unattractive everybody looks to me now,...."

Amen, brother. They're ugly as fuck. That's why the NewAge self-esteem movement was so important to them: They had to find a way to cover up all the gross shit they do, so they settled on self-delusion, and their denial of that fact makes them even worse.

At least, to The Macho Response; 8/6/09, 6:58 PM
Darcy said...: Geez.

I can't believe someone would go after dear, sweet Lem.

Hang in there, Lem. You are just fine.; 8/6/09, 7:01 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: "Guys just don't have to think about these things."

See? You tell yourselves such lies. Guys have to make a choice not to live in fear - just as women do - but women are just too caught up in their own assumptions, about what could happen, to get there.

Men have to learn to say "Fuck it" and gather up their fear and just go with The Macho Response

Those who can't are pussies. And there's a reason why we call them that.; 8/6/09, 7:02 PM
Shanna said...: Well, I wish they wouldn't make the choice not to lock the door when their sister is home alone and a burglar is coming. That's all.; 8/6/09, 7:09 PM
JAL said...: Lem -- you and my husband can have an anxiety attack together over the Red Sox tonight, okay?; 8/6/09, 7:19 PM
JAL said...: As for drinking at weddings -- yeah it tends to be more limited in the South. Local mega Southern Baptist church has a restriction on its pastors that they cannot be at a reception off church property where alcohol is served.

Niece and nephew (more northern) had wine served at sit down dinner and, I think, hard stuff later -- (maybe a cash bar). People were okay.

But then a young acquaintance of ours got married a couple weeks ago (by a Southern Baptist pastor, so it does vary) and the reception had wine and hard stuff, I think .... The bride got so drunk 2 of her friends had to drive her home. (She insisted she was good. Ha!) Groom also must have been wiped out as he went to his parents to pack for the honeymoon drive down to FL.

What a sad way to start married life.

On the other hand -- we had a lot of fun at a recent family wedding (dry) and it wasn't obnoxious. 'Twas truly lovely, sweet, and fun.

How did we get from a psycho mass murderer to weddings?; 8/6/09, 7:32 PM
Laura(southernxyl) said...: Social skills.; 8/6/09, 7:36 PM
knox said...: I hoped it was just a sign of being from a more passionate culture. Although I looked past it, as I did some select other things...

Well we're all guilty of that at some point. In the future, give yourself more credit, listen to your intuition.

THAT'S RIGHT, I SAID IT: INTUITION!!!

INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!INTUITION!!!; 8/6/09, 8:22 PM
knox said...: Well, I wish they wouldn't make the choice not to lock the door when their sister is home alone and a burglar is coming. That's all.

LOL.; 8/6/09, 8:23 PM
knox said...: Like making sure a creepy guy knows he's being watched, or making sure she made it into her building on an iffy street.

This is appreciated by me, if no one else!; 8/6/09, 8:24 PM
rhhardin said...: Superficiality is taking it on the chin today.; 8/6/09, 8:33 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Thanks everybody..

After the pounding the Sox are taking its not bad.. not bad at all.

Laura was just concerned (a little Obama lingo there) thats all.

its all good.; 8/6/09, 8:42 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Freeman Hunt, "women's intuition" is bogus NewAge bullshit.

TCE, I'm not talking about some wooty-woo psychic power. I'm talking about the ability to size somebody up very quickly. The same thing that, for example, cops do all the time. Women are generally pretty good at picking up cues that a guy is a creep. Now there may be other reasons that women reject a guy out of hand that have to do with biases, but that is not the only reason that a man may be ignored.

And again, I repeat, the women who ignored this guy have been totally vindicated. He was a complete psycho.; 8/6/09, 8:52 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: He could never get the attention of a girl but the only girls he ever looked at were the tens. He's maybe a two appearance-wise, and he doesn't even consider anyone who is more than a degree or two south of super-model?

Yes, yes. And as others have now described. That's what I'm saying you see all the time.

Not only that, but then the guy will often say that those girls he went after were bitches just because they wouldn't go out with him. As if they're supposed to go out with every single guy who makes a pass.; 8/6/09, 8:58 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I will also say that this thread is evidence that some men have absolutely no idea what it is like to be a woman. And some do.; 8/6/09, 8:59 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: I'm sure it helps for John Q. Citizen to make an appearance in front of a stalker. But at some point I'd guess that a police report might not hurt, either.; 8/6/09, 9:00 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: I will also say that this thread is evidence that some women have absolutely no idea what it is like to be a man. And some do.; 8/6/09, 9:02 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: But at some point I'd guess that a police report might not hurt, either.

Ha ha ha. Yeah, if you want to escalate his actions, that's a great move.; 8/6/09, 9:09 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Beauty is a real problem for women... sometimes ;); 8/6/09, 9:11 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: What is your point, Freeman? Are you advocating vigilantism again?

I can see how a known confidant might be more intimidating. But who would seriously advocate against filing a report? Are paper trails a bad thing?; 8/6/09, 9:12 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Vigilantism? Having another, larger man around is vigilantism now? Who knew?

I advocate
(1) Telling him in no uncertain terms never to talk to you or come around you again.
(2) Being around a man who the stalker would find intimidating.

You can call the police if you'd like, but if the stalking thing is long standing, and they guy likes the power, he will absolutely love the power of laughing in the cop's face since the cop can't really do anything about it.; 8/6/09, 9:16 PM
Shanna said...: I'm talking about the ability to size somebody up very quickly. The same thing that, for example, cops do all the time.

Exactly. I also think your brain picks up clues subconsciously and you act on that before you consciously have a chance to sort it all out.; 8/6/09, 9:16 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Oh, and if the situation is dangerous, I definitely recommend a third thing:

Get a concealed carry permit and use it.; 8/6/09, 9:17 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: And BTW, Knox - I owe you for this:

"That sucks. I mean that sincerely. Fortunately, you found out she was secretly a loser before it was *really* too late."

I guess the fact that she lied and used the excuse of not having tme for dating/being in a relationship just weeks before I saw her with a known loser says it all.

Jealousy is weird. If an ex subsequently ends up with a guy I can respect, or even befriend, a guy that would be good for her, I would feel happy for her. If she subsequently ends up with a complete waste of human space, then it makes me feel sleazy to have known/been with her.

BTW, this all happened as she was threatened with losing the funding for her fellowship and being deported. There's something to be said for not being a lazyass.; 8/6/09, 9:19 PM
Shanna said...: It isn't uncommon for someone to act more violently when they hear of a restraining order. I had a friend who wouldn't get a divorce for 5 years because she was afraid her husband would react violently (he had been abusive) even though they had been separated all that time and she was with someone else. She only finally divorced him when he was going to marry someone else or had a girlfriend or something.; 8/6/09, 9:20 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Ok. In this instance mere intimidation is not vigilantism.; 8/6/09, 9:20 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: And again, whom does it benefit to not leave evidence, a paper trail?

Perhaps you have a good explanation. But I fail to see why lacking official documentation is somehow a good thing.; 8/6/09, 9:23 PM
Shanna said...: I don't know if it's a good idea or not, thankfully I have never been in that situation. I've read that some men are set off by it, and I definately think the police can't do a damn thing. Maybe they can prosecute somebody after they've already attacked but what good does that do?; 8/6/09, 9:26 PM
Synova said...: "Any woman who thinks there's anything special about living in fear of others, like men have to do every day, have no idea what it's like to be a man."

Sure thing, Crack.

When you're five nothing and weigh in at 120 pounds you can talk to me.

Not that there are not men who are vulnerable but *most* women are far more physically vulnerable than *most* men on size and strength alone.

I don't live in fear. I made a choice not to. Just as I've made a choice to look at strangers as a potential source of help rather than a threat.

But I also do not do anything to attract undesirable attention and saying "Hi" to an emotionally needy, unstable fellow is the physical-safety equivalent of walking alone into a dark alley.; 8/6/09, 9:26 PM
KCFleming said...: But I fail to see why lacking official documentation is somehow a good thing.

Having it can cause the woman to be killed, as the abuser reacts violently to being accused/questioned/detained/arrested.

Lacking it might save her life, should she decide to flee, and hide in the underground railroad of safe houses for abused women. No official record of places she might be found.; 8/6/09, 9:29 PM