Althouse: Rumsfeld to Bush: "Commit to the LORD, whatever you do, and your plans will succeed

May 18, 2009

Rumsfeld to Bush: "Commit to the LORD, whatever you do, and your plans will succeed - Proverbs 16:3."

And: "Open the gates that the righteous nation may enter, the nation that keeps the faith - Isaiah 26:2." Captions for Iraq war photos.

69 comments:

Joseph said...: This seems like it should be in the Onion.; 5/18/09, 9:08 AM
Bissage said...: IM IN UR CABNITZ

QUOTIN MAI BIBILZ; 5/18/09, 9:10 AM
AllenS said...: Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition; 5/18/09, 9:19 AM
Salamandyr said...: Among the things he is accused of doing; blocking Ted Kennedy from being rewarded with the Medal of Freedom for his work on education.

So, he did one thing right.; 5/18/09, 9:23 AM
MadisonMan said...: I read that article, and I envision Michael Palin -- as Bush -- telling John Cleese (Rumsfeld, who is looking for a fish license) You are a loonie

. Wonderful Bissage, you crack me up.; 5/18/09, 9:29 AM
traditionalguy said...: Kind of reminds you of the sharpshooter in the squad sent to Save Private Ryan named Jackson who declared that God had made him into a special weapon of war and proclaimed the warrior King David's Psalms while he did what he proclaimed he could do. Now is that so strange for an American Secretary of Defense (War Department) during a war to proclaim like that too? Maybe he evolved into that from a long line of winners.; 5/18/09, 9:31 AM
garage mahal said...: Pelosi! Chris Dodd! Chappaquiddick!; 5/18/09, 9:34 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: So we have a conscientious Pentagon analyst who was "worried that if the memo covers leaked, they would inflame the Islamic world".

What action does our worried hero take? Of course, save the cover sheets, release them to a reporter and inflame the Islamic world!

It all makes perfect sense.; 5/18/09, 9:39 AM
Leland said...: Pardon me if I read that GQ article with a healthy serving of salt.

First, why would anybody caption battle photos with anything other than what the picture factually shows?

Second, why would President Bush, the man who created the Department of Homeland Security, call the Secretary of Defense about a natural disaster in the US?

Third, why would the Secretary of State be involved in rewarding a Senator with a award for work done in education?

And the thing about the turf wars is totally presumptuous.; 5/18/09, 10:03 AM
David said...: Whenever anyone leaks inflammatory information, such as this will certainly be to the Islamic world, one must always consider the motive. What possible benefit could this be to America and American soldiers now? Did the individual who deliberately leaked these Top Secret memos, thus violating the law, even stop to consider what the Islamic response, especially the radical Islamic response, could and might be?

It is immaterial whether or not one agrees with Rumsfeld's position. This is pouring gasoline on the Islamic flame that rages in many parts of Islam against the West and especially against America.; 5/18/09, 10:14 AM
former law student said...: I'm surprised the quotes in the article are all from the Old Testament -- you know, the one where as punishment for mocking His prophet, God sent two female bears to tear up 42 youths.

We were taught that Christ brought us a New Covenant, replacing the old one on which Rumsfeld supposedly relied. Rumsfeld may want to update his quote file:

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God

Luke 6:27-36 27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.; 5/18/09, 10:31 AM
Rich said...: Another Loony Toon production…

I agree with most of the comments that leaking such filth is a cowardly act. Once our President commits our TROOPS to war, his motivations should make no difference despite the loss of blood and treasure. Nothing magnifies their sacrifice like hiding why they are fighting. Should we hide the truth of why we went to war to keep sects from being inflamed, you bet! Why stop there, you can use this blog to help entrap people in this country who still think we stand for something. It could be another FBI magnet to reduce our risk by some percent as we join the filthiest intelligence undercurrent this country has ever seen. You are with us or against us but I forgot what proverb that is!!; 5/18/09, 10:32 AM
former law student said...: This is pouring gasoline on the Islamic flame that rages in many parts of Islam against the West and especially against America.

On the other hand, this casting of self-described Christians as a sort of American jihadi force may help Muslims understand the Bush administration better.; 5/18/09, 10:34 AM
Invisible Man said...: It could be another FBI magnet to reduce our risk by some percent as we join the filthiest intelligence undercurrent this country has ever seen. Wait, so the FBI are partisan hacks who we can't trust but the CIA would never not tell the whole truth when its about SPEAKER NANCY F'IN PELOSI. Got it!; 5/18/09, 10:40 AM
traditionalguy said...: FLS... You bring up the quotes from scriptures used over at the State Department. The same problems that Sgt Alvin York had with "loving your enemies" is that love must also face up to a duty not to permit your enemies to destroy the lives of the peaceful people you are charged with guarding before you have destroyed that much loved enemy. Besides, Rumsfeld is a Presbyterian.; 5/18/09, 10:43 AM
Wince said...: George Bush got memos from Rumsfeld that used Scripture to push Iraq war.

I'd say that's a deceptive headline "pushed" as a meme throughout the two articles.

The Rumsfeld memos had nothing to do with a "push" for the invasion of Iraq.

The article mentions those memos were written when US forces were outside Baghdad, well into the invasion.

Thus, rather than offered by Rumsfeld as a religious casus belli for the invasion, they were recommendations and affirmations of perserverence for the final operational "push", well after the invasion decision was made, a routine tactical recommendation for a SecDef to to make to the Commander in Chief.

Remember, at the time this was all in the context of it being accepted wisdom that Saddam's strategy was to seek a stalemate siege around Baghdad.

ASIA TIMESMarch 29, 2003
ANALYSIS
Could Saddam still win?By Marc Erikson

Saddam's strategy, as is now evident, is to sacrifice open spaces, but to hold urban areas and conduct guerrilla-style harassment operations in coalition rearguard areas. All this is to gain time, even prior to an eventual siege of Baghdad. Such a siege itself will prove time-consuming or, alternatively, be costly in the extreme in civilian lives as well as coalition casualties. Saddam's calculation is simple: Baghdad under lengthy siege could not only lead to ever-growing mobilizations of the "Arab street" in neighboring countries, but also prompt condemnation in the UN by the France-Germany-Russia axis with demands for a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement.; 5/18/09, 10:44 AM
hombre said...: The Chicago Way, tax evaders, mega deficits, Frank, Murtha, Reid, et al., and congressional corruption, Pelosi hypocricy and lies, vitiating creditor contracts, increasing unemployment, TARP fraud, pimping for the unions, etc., etc.

This absurdity is about keeping the focus squarely on the past and the Bushies instead of GQ's "man of the year" and cover model, BHO.; 5/18/09, 10:49 AM
hombre said...: FLS: ".... may help the Muslims understand ...."

Will it help them understand the continuation of Bush's middle east policies by Oblahblah?

You really are a partisan dork, aren't you?; 5/18/09, 10:52 AM
Roost on the Moon said...: It is immaterial whether or not one agrees with Rumsfeld's position. This is pouring gasoline on the Islamic flame that rages in many parts of Islam against the West and especially against America.
Oh, they're mad about this information being released? It seems to me they're mad about being invaded by a country on a holy war. Likewise the Abu Grahib stuff. They aren't mad that someone took a picture. They aren't mad that the pictures were made public. They're mad that the occupying army treated their people like Michael Vick treats dogs.

This stuff is not immaterial. This stuff is the gasoline.; 5/18/09, 10:54 AM
Rich said...: ...and a quick follow up. What a neat SOURCE of information. These METHODS are as time proven as snake oil.; 5/18/09, 11:06 AM
Beth said...: It's almost like we were on a religious Crusade or something.; 5/18/09, 11:11 AM
jeff said...: "It's almost like we were on a religious Crusade or something."

To the mentally challenged, I suppose so.; 5/18/09, 11:25 AM
Wince said...: Beth said...
It's almost like we were on a religious Crusade or something.

Yea, except for the facts.; 5/18/09, 11:26 AM
Beth said...: Yeah, it's a mental challenge alright, understanding just how stupid that administration was.

Joseph is right; this looks like an Onion parody.; 5/18/09, 11:37 AM
traditionalguy said...: Beth...Amerca stopped the Crusade stuff when the Mexican War was over. We've been on an World Oil Supply controlling mission since 1972 when the Arabs embargoed the Oil. Bush read Sharanski and decided to try a new tactic hoping to free the mid-east countries from the Dictatorships that had resulted from our earlier Bush I covert balance of power strategies. So far we are not paying $50 per gallon for gas, so good work Bush/Rumsfeld.; 5/18/09, 11:42 AM
Chennaul said...: I like how they title the link to the images -

Never-before-seen cover sheets of Rumsfeld's intel reports made for Bush....

Truth in advertising-I'm almost willing to bet.; 5/18/09, 11:52 AM
Beth said...: tradguy, it would be a lot smarter, then, not to dress up your plans in Crusade images and mix your military with religious lingo, wouldn't it? If you don't want to be perceived as on a Crusade?

Rummy was a terrible choice, and we're well rid of him.; 5/18/09, 11:52 AM
Chennaul said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/18/09, 11:56 AM
Chennaul said...: Invisible Man-
You bring up an interesting paradox for yourself and Liberals-

CIA vs. Souter Libby.

Gospel Truth.

CIA vs. Nancy Pelosi-

Liars! Damn Liars!; 5/18/09, 11:57 AM
former law student said...: Will it help them understand the continuation of Bush's middle east policies by Oblahblah

In terms of handling a big fat mess bequeathed him by the previous administration, so far Obama's looking better than Nixon, who prolonged our involvement in Viet Nam till his second term.

And in terms of getting enmeshed in a foreign invasion set up by a previous Republican administration, using information provided by the CIA, so far Obama's looking better than JFK, who gave the go-ahead for the Bay of Pigs invasion, which failure made him look like a pussy and gave Khrushchev the confidence to put nuclear-tipped missiles in Cuba.

So grading on the curve established by the last half-century's worth of Presidents, right now, Obama gets at least a B+.; 5/18/09, 11:58 AM
Chennaul said...: Ooooooh

And let me guess "anonymous" sources -natch who sat on this until now.

Uh huh.; 5/18/09, 11:59 AM
jeff said...: "Yeah, it's a mental challenge alright, understanding just how stupid that administration was. "

Keep twisting, you will get there.; 5/18/09, 12:14 PM
Moose said...: *groan*

Honest to god (or whomever), while I don't envy the job that Rummy & Co. had to do, in retrospect his total lack of control over his mouth makes me sad.

Given the amount of time we spent messing up our strategy in Iraq, you'd think that W. would have canned him sometime well before the surge.; 5/18/09, 12:26 PM
traditionalguy said...: Beth... You are correct about Rummy not being sensitive to the likelihood of his secret memos being used against us. He was from the old breed that expected to win by toughness and brutal weapons systems. I don't think Rummy expected to see a much more sophisticated game being played before the world wide web media. Let's HOPE our enemies don't take over the toughness and brutal weapons systems tactic and win in our place while we are busy sweet talking their highly honored cultures built on peace when they are weaker and wars of conquest when they are stronger.; 5/18/09, 12:31 PM
hombre said...: In terms of handling a big fat mess bequeathed him by the previous administration, so far Obama's looking better than Nixon, ... JFK, [blah, blah]....

How did a question pointing out the silliness of your "helping the Muslims understand" comment call for a Nixon/JFK comparison?

Q: Why are people who characterize themselves as "progressives" spending so much energy looking backward?

A: Because that's where the red herrings live.; 5/18/09, 1:05 PM
Beth said...: tradguy, it's not a dilemma. We can rely on toughness and weapons, AND not play Holy War in our secret memos. Rummy's been around a long time; he had no reason not to think that there's any such thing as truly secret memos. There's reams of evidence to show Rummy is an idiot. Bush waited way too long to replace him, and this is just another piece in the Jenga puzzle of bad decisions.; 5/18/09, 1:14 PM
Ralph L said...: They're mad that the occupying army treated their people like Michael Vick treats dogs.They were treated far better than they treated the Shia and Kurds for decades. It was Al Queda that was blowing up civilians in large numbers. The rest of the Arab world seems to suffer from battered wife syndrome: they can't quit their bloody tyrants.

Moose, the post-invasion strategy was Abizaid and the Army's, not Rumsfeld's. The Army doesn't like counter-insurgency and wasn't designed for it. They were just going to hold on til they could pass the buck to the Iraqi Army.; 5/18/09, 1:15 PM
Jeremy said...: Maguro said..."What action does our worried hero take? Of course, save the cover sheets, release them to a reporter and inflame the Islamic world!"

Why aren't you more concerned with the memos being created in the first place?; 5/18/09, 1:19 PM
Jeremy said...: Ralph - "the post-invasion strategy was Abizaid and the Army's, not Rumsfeld's."

That's a crock.; 5/18/09, 1:22 PM
Chennaul said...: And actually the article which is of a certain quality-[not even The Washington Post is buying it, and the NYT goes with it only long enough to actually refute a lot of it...]

But! given all that-hold on!-even GQ and The NY Daily say that these were supposedly created by underlings in the military or at DOD to brief Rumsfeld and then the "reporters" at GQ and NY Daily ask you to assume that he just marched over to Bush with the same brief.

So let's get this straight GQ and NY Daily are accusing either professional military officers and/or DOD underlings of this.

Not Rumsfeld.

The photos and quotes again not even GQ and NY Daily News are saying that Rumsfeld did those.

So you are going to have to take a deep breath go re-read the articles even the less than credulous ones and heap all the vindictive that you spewed here against Rummy and Bush and apply it most likely to field grade officers at the Pentagon.

And you'll look like haters too because plenty of people have slaved away at the Pentagon and know what a vast majority of the briefs look like.; 5/18/09, 1:26 PM
rhhardin said...: Blessed are the beekeepers.; 5/18/09, 1:34 PM
Palladian said...: Obama's ordering that this stuff get leaked. It's his way of saying "Hey! Look over there!"; 5/18/09, 1:43 PM
hombre said...: We can rely on toughness and weapons, AND not play Holy War in our secret memos.

Armies and their civilian commanders have looked to their gods for inspiration and support for centuries. It is only in the minds of secular progressives and other heathens that such action necessarily mestastacizes into "holy war"; 5/18/09, 1:46 PM
TMink said...: First, before any President sends our troops into harm's way I hope that they pray dilligently before doing so.

Secondly, this cannot be proof of Rummy using religious imagery and persuasion to talk Bush into the war, these were sent at the climax of the war. So the article is a bust.

Third, I try to talk to people in their metaphorical language 5 days a week. Understanding and adopting another person's metaphors and belief system can greatly enhance communiction if done correctly.

Fourth, I thought Bush was the corrupt mastermind, everything is his fault after all, especialy those horrid spending decisions he made when the Democrats controlled Congress!

Now you are telling me it was Rumsfeld? Just stick to one scape goat please, it tightens the narrative.

Trey; 5/18/09, 2:25 PM
Melissa said...: madawaskan, the voice of reason. When I first saw these I was pretty shocked and also didn't really believe that they went to the President of the United States. Thank you for clearing up the actual origin of these cover sheets. And yes, the timing of their release is most curious.; 5/18/09, 3:05 PM
hdhouse said...: This story broke several days ago and was rumored a year ago. No one, not even President CheneyBush could keep a farce like this secret.; 5/18/09, 3:06 PM
Alex said...: To loonies like Beth, praying before a war = holy war/Crusades. Do you have one shred of logic or decency?; 5/18/09, 5:52 PM
sakredkow said...: Praise the Lord, take a pass on the ammunition.; 5/18/09, 7:16 PM
CarmelaMotto said...: wasn't Rumsfeld long gone by the time Ted Kennedy was diagnosed with cancer?; 5/18/09, 7:25 PM
Jason said...: I served in Iraq in 2003 and 2004, and commanded hundreds of convoy sorties over there, all over the Al Anbar province.

The division I was attached to published a little card for soldiers so inclined to keep in their wallets and pockets. It came with the 82nd Division logo and a unit crest, and read as follows:

CONVOY PRAYER:

Rescue me, O Lord, from evil men; protect me from men of violence, who devise evil plans in their hearts and stir up war every day... who plan to trip my feet.

O Lord, I say to you, "You are my God." Hear, O Lord, my cry for mercy. O Sovereign Lord, my strong deliverer, who shields my head in the day of battle - do not grant the wicked their desires, O Lord, do not let their plans succeed...

My Eyes are fixed on you, O Sovreign Lordl in you I take refuge -- do not give me over to death. Keep me from the snares they have laid for me, from the traps set by evildoers. Let the wicked fall into their own nets, while I pass by in safety.

Amen.

Psalm 140:1-8 and Psalm 141:8-10.

The prayer card was taken, universally, as it was intended - as a salve to the spirits of dirty, exhausted, nervous, scared, but resolute young men and women who faced the imminent possibility of death or dismemberment on every mission - all of us had witnessed it happen to our friends at some point or another.

I'd seen convoy briefings where there was a silent prayer together before hand, but at mine, we each did it quietly, in our own way.

Leaving the gates, it wasn't unusual to see a Catholic soldier quietly, genuflect, or kiss a rosary bead, leaving the gate.

I myself just performed one last functions check on my weapon, and then charged my weapon, chambering a round.

For some reason, I also sang a little song: "The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round."

Hey, it worked for 100 sorties in a row, who was I to stop?

The point was that when people are under stress, some people take comfort in religious expression as a salve or affirmation. In Iraq, we did it to prepare ourselves to meet our maker.

Back in D.C., there was a different kind of stress that planners know: The knowledge that they had just committed over a hundred thousand men and women - many of them known to these planners PERSONALLY.

They needed some of that grace, themselves.

But Beth and former law student have us figured out: Clearly, we were all, to a man, religious maniacs embarking on a "religious crusade," I guess.

Twits.; 5/18/09, 7:39 PM
traditionalguy said...: Jason... That 82nd Convoy Prayer would also make a great hand out for male divorce clients facing hearings, depositions and trials of their case. The point that you made about the Pentagon Posting being a stressful place(when hi-jacked airliners are not burning you alive)is often overlooked. The Colonels of Units seeing deployment are like Fathers of a family in harm's way. If these guys did not talk to their God, and to anyone on whom they could unload their feelings in secret,then they could become depressed and screw up. They say Gen Patton, who had trouble with this stress in the field resulting in the slapping incidents, found help reciting scripture like Psalm 69 in which David asked God to remember to do his part in the upcoming fight.; 5/18/09, 8:13 PM
TMink said...: Jason, God bless you brother. That is real soul in what you wrote.

But Beth is OK, even when she is wrong, which is less often than I am I'll wager, she is OK.

Trey; 5/18/09, 8:15 PM
traditionalguy said...: Correction: psalm 63.; 5/18/09, 8:21 PM
Jason said...: Well, speaking of Patton, during the Battle of the Bulge, he did direct his chaplain to compose a prayer to God for better weather, so that the cloud cover would lift and the full righteous might of US air power could blow our Nazi enemies to tiny bits (in His infinite mercy.)

Again, clearly, George Patton was a religious holy roller on some damn fool ideological crusade (TM).; 5/18/09, 8:32 PM
Jason said...: From Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace, a scene on the eve of the Battle of Borodino:

"There they are... bringing her, coming... There they are... They'll be here in a minute..." voices were suddenly heard saying; and officers, soldiers, and militiamen began running forward along the road.

A church procession was coming up the hill from Borodino. First along the dusty road came the infantry in ranks, bareheaded and with arms reversed. From behind them came the sound of church singing.

Soldiers and militiamen ran bareheaded past Pierre toward the procession.

"They are bringing her, our Protectress!... The Iberian Mother of God!" someone cried.

"The Smolensk Mother of God," another corrected him.

The militiamen, both those who had been in the village and those who had been at work on the battery, threw down their spades and ran to meet the church procession. Following the battalion that marched along the dusty road came priests in their vestments- one little old man in a hood with attendants and singers. Behind them soldiers and officers bore a large, dark-faced icon with an embossed metal cover. This was the icon that had been brought from and had since accompanied the army. Behind, before, and on both sides, crowds of militiamen with bared heads walked, ran, and bowed to the ground.

Much more here:

http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/211/

(See also Bundarchuk's incredible 7 hour adaptation of the novel, with a cast of over 100,000 reenactors!)

So soldiers, under stress, express religious sentiment - throughout history.

In Lev Tolstoy's The Cossacks, he describes a 19th century sniper shooting Chechens and controlling his breathing, sight picture and trigger squeeze by reciting "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" to himself.

CHRISTIAN WHACKJOBS! THE LOT OF THEM!!!!!!; 5/18/09, 8:40 PM
hdhouse said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/18/09, 9:21 PM
hdhouse said...: elHombre said...
"Armies and their civilian commanders have looked to their gods for inspiration and support for centuries. It is only in the minds of secular progressives and other heathens that such action necessarily mestastacizes into "holy war"

Oh my. Where or where to begin.

liberals believe in God too. Conservatives don't own God or access to God. Got it?

I noticed that you wrote "commanders have looked to their gods"...

noting your use of the small "g" god like praying to Zeus or Mars or whatnot..right? Not God? You know...the capital G God? That one?

Heathens? "commanders have looked to their gods"...well what is a heathen? you don't know do you? are you saying that commanders pray to small "g" gods? Did Bush?...'oh ye Mars, give me strength'??? Heathens? (here it is): an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.

If you insist on writing stupid things at least take the time to understand what you are writing?

I'm reminded of Hezakiah 4:4..."Thall shall not piss in the lake if a punch bowl is present".

Ya'betcha ass.; 5/18/09, 9:25 PM
former law student said...: The point was that when people are under stress, some people take comfort in religious expression as a salve or affirmation. In Iraq, we did it to prepare ourselves to meet our maker.

WWJK? -- Who Would Jesus Kill?

Don't pretend to be Christian when your actions are the antithesis of Christ's teachings.; 5/18/09, 9:54 PM
Jen said...: Former Law Student said, "Don't pretend to be Christian when your actions are the antithesis of Christ's teachings."

I tried to go there the other day with respect to non-violence. It seems that violence is completely justified in most religions.

Synovia quoted something about a sword, and carrying the sword. . . .

I'm all confused. I always thought Jesus was a peaceful man, who preached peace, non-violence, tolerance/acceptance whichever.

This is rich.

I should have just let Rumsfeld and Bush make my case against organized religion for me.

As AllenS noted: "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition."

Former Law Student said, "I'm surprised the quotes in the article are all from the Old Testament -- you know, the one where as punishment for mocking His prophet, God sent two female bears to tear up 42 youths."

Which just cracked me right up.; 5/18/09, 11:37 PM
Beth said...: To loonies like Alex, saying we ought not to frame our war in the Middle East in religious terms in our official memos means "praying before a war = holy war/Crusades." Sure, that's exactly what I said.

Trey, thanks for the kind words, and I'm glad we can maintain respect despite seeing things differently. In my view, there's a deep, wide gulf between soldiers praying for themselves and their comrades in the battle zone, and framing the war on the administration level in Biblical terms.; 5/18/09, 11:41 PM
hdhouse said...: Let's ask Rummy. I'm sure he can manufacture an explanation for his behavior.; 5/19/09, 6:01 AM
Jason said...: Don't pretend to be Christian when your actions are the antithesis of Christ's teachings.Evacuating wounded, delivering food, delivering medical supplies, safeguarding detainees, taking a soldier to the landing zone to fly home to be with his wife while she gives birth, or taking Jewish soldiers to the landing zone to fly to Baghdad for Yom Kippur services are "the antithesis of Christ's teachings?"

Did they teach you to be this stupid in law school?; 5/19/09, 8:13 AM
TMink said...: Jen wrote: "I always thought Jesus was a peaceful man, who preached peace, non-violence, tolerance/acceptance whichever."

See, that is what you get for not reading the source material: confusion and cluelessness.

MAtthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law 36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

Just a little more complicated once you read what was written.

Trey; 5/19/09, 8:51 AM
TMink said...: Beth wrote: "Trey, thanks for the kind words, and I'm glad we can maintain respect despite seeing things differently."

Me too. Although we agree about a lot of things, perhaps the most important to treat respectful posters with respect! 8)

"In my view, there's a deep, wide gulf between soldiers praying for themselves and their comrades in the battle zone, and framing the war on the administration level in Biblical terms."

Me too.

But our enemies see the situation in Apocalyptic terms. Recall that "communications" satellite that Iran launched? It broadcasts the word of the prohpet across the earth. This was done to hasten the coming of their 12th Iman, many Christians have read of this figure, but we call him the Antichrist.

I am not at all in favor of declaring war based on my spirituality, and believe that protection is the only reason worth going to war in general, but the people who want to destroy us view this conflict as spiritual.

It would be easier to ignore them if I did not have a gnawing fear that they are the correct ones on this issue.

Peace.

Trey; 5/19/09, 8:56 AM
Beth said...: the people who want to destroy us view this conflict as spiritual.

It would be easier to ignore them if I did not have a gnawing fear that they are the correct ones on this issue.

Thanks, Trey. That sums up the crux of our difference right there. I think it's vital that we not follow them into that realm - our strength is the separation of church and state, by which I mean we have a consistent, reliable form of government that does not waver based on the faith of whoever is in power, that our government recognizes the rights of people of all faiths, and we don't put them into actual physical conflict with one another. I think it's catastrophic to see our role in the Middle East as a conflict between religions. Isn't the West to be valued precisely for crawling out of that kind of thinking over the past several hundred years? We'd do much better to see the moderates of the Middle East follow our path, rather than us crawl back down into the Islamic fundies' medieval swamp.; 5/19/09, 10:09 AM
Jason said...: I get it.

A powerpoint flunkie in the Pentagon.. probably some bored major or master sergeant working in a cubicle.. illustrating a briefing for the SecDef with a few photos and some biblical verses equals "crawling back down to the Islamic fundies' midieval swamp."

Where do you people get this stuff?; 5/19/09, 10:30 AM
TMink said...: Beth I agree with you. But I also fear that we are the odd folks out on this issue. Not that it would be right or advantageous to think of this as a religious war, we are a pluralistic society, and I value that.

More that we cannot understand and intervene in the situation while we view it in our terms. Without at least understanding their terms, I think we are handicapped in knowing what to do or what will be effective.

Frankly, I am not optimistic that anything will be effective. But, the answer is not treating this as a crusade. There, we are simpatico!

Trey; 5/19/09, 10:59 AM
Largo said...: """
Blessed are the beekeepers.
"""
No, rhhardin. Blessed are the cheesemakers.; 5/19/09, 12:51 PM
Jason said...: No, no... his remarks weren't meant to be taken literally. The term refers to any manufacturer of dairy products.; 5/19/09, 1:55 PM