Althouse: "The government is promoting bad behavior...."

February 19, 2009

"The government is promoting bad behavior...."

Drudge is running the flashing siren over this.

298 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 298 of 298

Palladian said...: "Care to provide a link or report that substantiates this?"

Are you kidding? This is Zederfurt you're talking about.

And even if it is true, so what? 30% to 35% is not really an overwhelming number. 99% of the "big bad" players were male. Does that make all males a suspect part of some vast conspiracy?

I mean, there are those who would say "yes" to that, but they're as stupid as Zederfurt die Judenhasser.; 2/19/09, 8:37 PM
KCFleming said...: I am looking forward to the summer Chicago Tea Party.

...and the start of the second American revolution.
No joke.; 2/19/09, 8:42 PM
Revenant said...: You make an excellent argument for why conservatives shouldn't be freaking out.

Why on Earth should conservatives -- or responsible non-conservatives -- be anything other than infuriated at the thought of the government borrowing $75 billion in order to bail out communities that are capable of bailing out themselves? I admit that $75 billion doesn't sound like a lot of money these days, with the Obama administration pumping up the deficit by a half-trillion per week, but it is still $250 per American and a hell of a lot more than $250 per taxpayer.

Even if your argument held water this would still be a stupid plan unless you believe that anything worth doing is worth having the federal government do via deficit spending. That is not a traditionally conservative viewpoint, "compassionate conservatism" notwithstanding.

It's hard to see how BHO's plan is bailing out a bunch of loser degenerates

That's what the $200 billion is for.

Yes, yes, I know you've said "this $200 billion is to facilitate loans to the cream of the crop borrowers". That's a steaming pile of bullshit. The cream of the crop aren't underwater on their loans and don't need a bailout. The cream of the crop are people like me, who put down a good downpayment, bought a house they could afford even IF times got tough and the market declined, and took out a fixed-rate mortgage.

The problem is that many millions of Americans rushed out and bought the absolute most house they could possibly afford, usually with little or no money down and an adjustable-rate mortgage. THOSE fuckwits are the ones lining up for the $200 billion. They might have "good credit" if you redefine the credit rating rules so that things like "ability to pay", "responsible borrowing history", and "net worth" no longer matter, but in saner times these people are rightly identified as really lousy credit risks. It was extending credit to those lousy credit risks that got us in trouble in the first place.; 2/19/09, 8:45 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Yes, no man is an island. We are all part of a society. That is why, for the good of society, and everyone in it, we must not promote more irresponsible behavior.

Yes!

I can't believe anyone would support this. And too many supporters are hiding behind the "well, you people wanted the banks bailed out, so you can't object to this." The hell we all did. I've been against every bailout. And after each bailout, we've had another, and another, and another. No one has to deal with any consequences. Why shouldn't banks make stupid loans to bad credit risks when the ever beneficent government is happy to step in and socialize the risk?

If you get foreclosed, you get foreclosed. You move into an apartment or a smaller house. You buy a house you can afford when you can afford it. It's not a choice between a home you can't pay for or the Salvation Army shelter. It is not the end of the world.; 2/19/09, 8:55 PM
Anonymous said...: No, it is not a secret, 1pjb. The information is readily available for those who choose to find it. For example:

A Shared Effort to Reduce Monthly Payments: For a sample household with payments adding up to 43 percent of his monthly income, the lender would first be responsible for bringing down interest rates so that the borrower’s monthly mortgage payment is no more than 38 percent of his or her income. Next, the initiative would match further reductions in interest payments dollar-for-dollar with the lender to bring that ratio down to 31 percent. If that borrower had a $220,000 mortgage, that could mean a reduction in monthly payments by over $400. That lower interest rate must be kept in place for five years, after which it could gradually be stepped up to the conforming loan rate in place at the time of the modification. Lenders will also be able to bring down monthly payments by reducing the principal owed on the mortgage, with Treasury sharing in the costs.

What you've been talking about is this:

§ Incentives to Help Borrowers Stay Current: To provide an extra incentive for borrowers to keep paying on time, the initiative will provide a monthly balance reduction payment that goes straight towards reducing the principal balance of the mortgage loan. As long as a borrower stays current on his or her loan, he or she can get up to $1,000 each year for five years.

As the very well-informed and influential Calculated Risk blog says,

This plan rewards those homebuyers who speculated with excessive leverage. I think this is a mistake.

Another problem with Part 2 is that this lowers the interest rate for borrowers far underwater, but other than the $1,000 per year principal reduction and normal amortization, there is no reduction in the principal. This probably leaves the homeowner far underwater (owing more than their home is worth). When these homeowners eventually try to sell, they will probably still face foreclosure - prolonging the housing slump. These are really not homeowners, they are debtowners / renters.; 2/19/09, 8:56 PM
Anonymous said...: Hey Ron, this is just for you!"

[Canadian Prime Minister] Harper was equally anxious to avoid signs of a split. "I'm quite confident that the United States will respect those obligations and continue to be a leader on the need for globalised trade," he said, though he did not sound totally convinced.; 2/19/09, 9:06 PM
George M. Spencer said...: You have a boo-boo.

There is a Band-Aid brand adhesive bandage on it.

It needs to be changed.

Do you want Dad to rip it off it one swift stroke?

Or...

Do you want Mom to gradually peel it off ever so slowly?

This is the difference between Republicans and Democrats.; 2/19/09, 9:34 PM
Henry said...: 1jpb -- the fact that a program is simple in theory doesn't make it simple to administer. The fact that a government program can be ended easily doesn't mean it will be ended easily.; 2/19/09, 9:35 PM
traditionalguy said...: The mortgage loan industry was always ripe for the picking because it is a business that pays Loan Officers on commission. In other words they were not payed to turn down bad loans, but were only paid to approve loans. As soon as the loan officers who had learned the profits to be made from this scam started up their own companies there was no thought of losing their equity since they had none invested.The Regulators from DC down were winking and hinting that 100% loans on homes for every living being was a good public policy since the oil money that went out would then come back as investments into US mortgage backed securities. The middlemen in this circle of Gold were the same political interests in DC refusing to slow the perfect scam down. They refused to drill for oil and gas in the .0001% of ANWAR that was set aside for oil and gas drilling This unexplainable agreement of the Dems and Repubs had a reason and it was not caribou dreaming. Likewise the oil and gas drilling in US coastal waters was killed by Obama as his gang's #1 order for that same reason. Without that circular golden flow of dollars out for foreign oil and then dollars back for loans to Americans the politicians would run dry and with no more Money Flow to divert to the Bosses. Hence their new plans now being implemented to send out our Dollars to fake Green Energy scams and pretended Co2 lowering scams where they can again divert the Gold flow into the pockets of the same political bagmen. I wonder if Obama will stop there, or turn and throw his co-bosses under the bus, like poor Blago, and aim at much higher stakes than just Middleclass American wealth.; 2/19/09, 9:38 PM
Cedarford said...: My original shit sandwich analogy cast blame far and wide, from Reaganites to Obama to dumb Fundies thrown off by "values distractions to Clinton's people and in that context, I said "(...Republican Corporatists urged, and the Dems own Wall Street and Progressive Jew Tycoons urged.)"

Progressive Jews formed 50% of Clintons cabinet, and 50% of donor dollars to Clintons DNC, by AIPACs own boasts of Jewish clout with the Clintons.

They are part of the story of the catastrophe.

As much as Republican deregulators, black Congressmen wanting mortgage loan relaxations.

But what is disgusting, Michael Hasenstab, is the continued Jewish aggression against any criticism when they see members of their Tribe get their hands caught in the till, or in the case of Israel, get involved in tawdry actions. It continues to alienate others internationally. And growingly, here in America, who see Jewish refusal to acknowledge Jewish wrongdoing in the face of a staggering number of well-placed Jews in cons and Wall Street machinations as arrogance, or simply thinking that American laws and morality do not have much weight with them. Whatever you can get away with in the pursuit of wealth....

We have gone through blacks screaming "racism!!" whenever growing, obvious dysfunctions in the black community were pointed out or groups of black thugs were locked up...until it got so bad even blacks rethought "Victimhood!! It's all Whitey's fault!" as a defense against their self-inflicted problems.

Now on top of Jews, we have Muslims that use the same strategy - hypersensitive to any outside their Tribe criticism, determined to dismiss any dysfunction pointed out as "Islamophobia".; 2/19/09, 9:45 PM
somefeller said...: I am looking forward to the summer Chicago Tea Party....and the start of the second American revolution. No joke.

You really do like to talk a lot about revolutions and the risk of coming political violence, don't you, Pogo? Kind of a Walter Mitty thing with you?

I suspect that this second American Revolution will look more like the sort of thing discussed here than something worth talking about, particularly given that, despite the static from conservative bloggers and ranting CNBC hosts, Obama and his policies are quite popular. Sort of like the Whiskey Rebellion, but with less impressive characters at the helm, and less consequence for the larger society.; 2/19/09, 9:45 PM
Titushadacreamyloaf said...: I am fucking furious. This is just outrageous. I played by the rules. Where is my fucking bailout?

Anyone else notice the economy went south after Obama became president? Hardly a coincidence.

Any also write all of your republican governors. If any republican governor takes a penny of that stimulus money they can forget their future presidential ambitions.

I am fucking mad. I can't even spring a hardon...well maybe I can still get a hardon. I am trying right now. I am thinking of Palladian on his knees in front of me begging for my hog. OK, got a hardon now. Palladian get over here now bitch. I hope you are ready for rough sex because I am pissed.; 2/19/09, 9:46 PM
Titushadacreamyloaf said...: Don't forget the gays Cedarford. Their attempts to ruin the sancitity of marriage haven ruined our culture.

Now our young people think gays are ok. Disgusting

I am fucking mad.; 2/19/09, 9:51 PM
Anonymous said...: I am fucking mad.

Are you sure you haven't transposed two words in that sentence? ;-); 2/19/09, 9:59 PM
Palladian said...: I'd rather Titus post his tiresome descriptions of defecation than read one of his painfully unfunny faux-outrage "rants". Titus doesn't do sarcasm well.

In fact, Titus doesn't really do anything well.; 2/19/09, 10:03 PM
KCFleming said...: Well somefeller, I hope you're right. Democrats think this is no biggie, and things will straighten out after a short 1-2 year downturn, followed by the liberal nirvana, a collectivist wetdream.

I don't think that will happen, however.

The US money supply doubled from 1994 to 2008, and has doubled -again- just in the last six months.The risk for a Weimar-level hyperinflation is huge. In less than a year, we face financial armageddon. This stimulus plan is a Ponzi scheme, a perpetual motion machine banking on the idea that somehow having the gummint print money with ever-diminishing value will create a net positive, via some magical multiplier.

Bullshit, however, won't put off the reckoning day.

Do you think I talk tough?
Well go screw.
Atlas is shrugging, and we're heading into a disaster that might mean the end of the US. I take no pleasure in that thought; it scares the shit out of me. But it's increasingly apparent that this is happening.; 2/19/09, 10:06 PM
traditionalguy said...: The mortgage loan business ran wild since the business had always had a fatal when not watched over by the Owners: the loan officers were not paid to turn down a bad loan as good underwriting rules require. Instead the commission was only paid when a loan was approved. The Owners hired professionals to police themselves or faced buy-back of bad Loans.Then the loan officers who make these loan papers so well started up their own companies. They sought production to get high volumes and to sell out to a bigger player. Then the new word in 2000 in all the latest FNMA approved products was to make 100% loans to any living being with , wink-wink, underwriting issues. What was going on was a carefully crafted government policy to tap into the Golden Flow of the American middle class' Petro-dollars out to foreigners who had no other place for the money and parked it back into US mortgaged-backed securities. Now the golden flow took off. No one wanted to kill the goose. Suddenly both the Dems and the Repubs agreed on pristine Caribou Dreams that stopped in its tracts normal US oil production, such as ANWR's .0001% set aside for oil and gas drilling. Then offshore oil and gas became suddenly too pristine to touch, and last week Obama's first Act was to kill it off again. But the golden Flow has locked up, and their next target will be to ship your dollars out for Green Energy scams and Co2 Clean-up scams Then the political gangs can resume vacuming up American middleclass retirement wealth.The unknown is whether Obama will play along or set his next goal higher than mere American wealth. Obama is not a smalltown Blago. He thinks Globally.; 2/19/09, 10:06 PM
KCFleming said...: And you forget; the first American Revolution was over a little thing called taxes.; 2/19/09, 10:09 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Pogo,

Who would you put in charge after the revolution?

I'll start praying that your response isn't a trite media whore conservative. Who knows, maybe you'll surprise.

Randy,

Thanks for the link, I already acknowledged in an earlier comment that I was too lazy to look for the details.

Regarding the opinion you quoted. This plan is sensible for folks who don't need to move, because they will remain stuck w/ their principle. Which is an argument against the idea that this is some great giveaway to folks who didn't have any skin in the game. They're still on the hook for their debt, which seems fair. They'll get a financially feasible chance to do the right thing by not mailing in the keys, but they will be paying for their irrational exuberance for a very long time. Or, they'll mail in the keys and this program won't cost anything.

Both of the detailed excerpts in your comment are related to the $75 billion. The $200 billion part, that is for good borrowers who did have skin in the game (now wiped away because of dropping values in their hoods) doesn't seem to restrict loan types at all, so these folks would be most wise if they chose a 30y fixed, or a fifteen year, if they can afford it. This program should not be controversial, it's for good borrowers, it doesn't increase debt, and it will likely only help borrowers who didn't max out LTVs before the values started dropping because it only allows folks to be 5% underwater, so they must have had decent equity before the big declines in housing values.

The $75 billion part is very complicated. Initially it sets up a rate that has the bank giving in a lot more than the gov. For example in the example you noted the borrowers housing expense as a portion of their income was dropped by 12% w/ the gov only picking up 3.5% (which would be about $33/week if someone makes $50M/y), which is the maximum that the gov would ever pick up, with the bank matching dollar for dollar. And, this is phased out starting in five years, until just the non-subsidized initial rate finishes out the loan's duration.

Then, on top of that the gov provides up to (not sure what factors determine all the way up to, or not all the way, perhaps it's proportional to loan size) a $1000/year principle reduction for each of the five years if the borrowers don't default. And, the servicer is paid a grand per year for three years if there is no default. So, this program

So, all told the government is paying on average about 63$/week (for a $50M income person, more for higher income, less for lower; because the rate subsidy is related to income) for five years to keep folks out of foreclosure. And, the lender is paying on average (even after crediting them w/ the $3000 they get for servicing) about $70/ week for five years.

Seems effective and IMHO as good of a balance as we're likely to find. And, this $75 billion is quite evenly spread out over five years, so it's not a huge hit to the budget in year one. And, if folks quickly default, this program could be really cheap, likewise if the lenders decide that it's not worth paying on average about $71 a week to avoid underwater REO in a terrible market.

Randy, thanks again for providing the info. I should be less lazy.

Henry,

Thanks to Randy, I've seen that the nuts and bolts are a complicated. But, all modern loan underwriting standards do have this level of detail and precision, it's impossible to devise a conforming loan product w/o reams of paper explicitly identifying what is and what isn't allowed.

And, a bit more complicated deed of trust is not a big deal, a few more forms to print out. And, the servicing of the loan wouldn't be any more dificult than any other fixed, balloon, or ARM type loan; just setup the computers to tell us what to do, and when.

IMHO, the problem w/ the mortgage industry isn't a lack of capacity for handling complexity.; 2/19/09, 10:10 PM
Palladian said...: "And you forget; the first American Revolution was over a little thing called taxes."

The left hopes that their propaganda arms in the media, television and the entertainment industry has so sapped our national will and spirit that Americans will just roll over when told. Their hopes seem to be well-founded.; 2/19/09, 10:20 PM
somefeller said...: The risk for a Weimar-level hyperinflation is huge.

Given that the deflationary pattern in this economy seems to be quite strong, I suspect even if that were true, deflationary trends will more than counter that.

Atlas is shrugging, and we're heading into a disaster that might mean the end of the US.

From what I've seen, the Atlases in American society are increasingly Democratic, or at least pro-Obama and anti-Limbaugh/Palin conservative. Just look at the trends regarding where the votes of educated professionals are going. If Atlas shrugs, he's more likely to toss the GOP, or at least the more rabid parts of it, from his shoulders.

I take no pleasure in that thought; it scares the shit out of me.

I've never been one for panic, but to each his own. Off to bed.; 2/19/09, 10:23 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Palladian,

Who would you want in charge after the theoretical revolution?; 2/19/09, 10:23 PM
KCFleming said...: "I'll start praying that your response isn't a trite media whore conservative. Who knows, maybe you'll surprise."

Your concern is noted.

I am getting tired of the liberal tendency to think the financial debacle is cute or funny. It's neither.

One year from now, things won't be so humorous., for you or me. Laugh while you can.; 2/19/09, 10:26 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: The left hopes that their propaganda arms in the media, television and the entertainment industry has so sapped our national will and spirit that Americans will just roll over when told. Their hopes seem to be well-founded.

Too true and too depressing.; 2/19/09, 10:27 PM
KCFleming said...: What makes you think 'educated professionals' are Atlases?
WTF?; 2/19/09, 10:28 PM
Jason (the commenter) said...: Obama is using this money to buy Florida and the southwest for the Democrats.; 2/19/09, 10:31 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: What makes you think 'educated professionals' are Atlases?

LOL; 2/19/09, 10:32 PM
Palladian said...: "Who would you want in charge after the theoretical revolution?"

Me, of course.

Or maybe the Revolution can wait until genetic and cloning technology has advanced to the point that I can make a new Washington, Franklin, Madison, Adams and Jefferson from the strands of hair in my collection.; 2/19/09, 10:37 PM
blake said...: What makes you think 'educated professionals' are Atlases?

Right, Pogo, as if the world could get along without Transgendered Studies Professors! Duh!; 2/19/09, 10:37 PM
Palladian said...: Who is the Franklin or Washington of our age?

Jesus, I need another scotch. This is getting really depressing.; 2/19/09, 10:38 PM
Palladian said...: Because I've heard that Obama is the Lincoln and Dr King of our age, but ya know, I just don't see it...; 2/19/09, 10:39 PM
blake said...: Obama is a modern Charles Ponzi.; 2/19/09, 10:41 PM
Revenant said...: Obama and his policies are quite popular.

Obama is quite popular. His policies are a different story; they enjoy only narrow majority support. This is probably a contributing factor in the rapid decline in his approval ratings (down 8% in the last month).

Presidents tend to be initially very popular during a crisis. Bush went over 90% approval following 9/11, and well over 70% when we invaded Iraq. Didn't do him much good in the long run, though. :); 2/19/09, 10:45 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Because I've heard that Obama is the Lincoln and Dr King of our age

Oh, he is, he is. See, he's male, and he's black, and both those other guys were male and had something to do with black people, so all three are the same.; 2/19/09, 10:46 PM
Sprezzatura said...: make a new Washington, Franklin, Madison, Adams and Jefferson

Is the exclusion of Paine purposeful?

You know, because he's an anti-god socialist, as some (Beck) on the right like to summarize his accomplishments.

P.S.
What ya drinking?; 2/19/09, 10:46 PM
Palladian said...: "Obama is a modern Charles Ponzi."

I'm thinking more a black Bernie Madoff...; 2/19/09, 10:47 PM
Palladian said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/19/09, 10:50 PM
Palladian said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/19/09, 10:52 PM
Palladian said...: "Is the exclusion of Paine purposeful?

You know, because he's an anti-god socialist, as some (Beck) on the right like to summarize his accomplishments."

Dammit! I should've included Paine. I love Mr Paine. And Hamilton.

"P.S.
What ya drinking?"

Cragganmore 12, with just a drop of water.; 2/19/09, 10:52 PM
Jason (the commenter) said...: Who is the Franklin or Washington of our age?

Limbaugh could stand in for Franklin, minus the scientific knowledge.

But who would want another Washington? Look at his circumstances. He started a world war in his youth and later on rebelled against his countrymen. He led a starving, ill equipped, army around and begged foreign troops onto American soil.

The only way we'll see another Washington is to have similar hardships. What we have now is nothing compared with what number one had to put up with. Let's hope it stays that way.; 2/19/09, 11:03 PM
Peter Hoh said...: It's not like there was a principled libertarian on the ticket last November.; 2/19/09, 11:07 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Right, Rush would be a great leader.

That guy is obviously the best leader our country could find. Though, Peter seems to be a Barr-Root man (or maybe thinking of something else .); 2/19/09, 11:28 PM
blake said...: Actually, if we were to have another revolution, I'd hope we'd be smart enough to make it relatively unimportant "who was in charge".; 2/19/09, 11:35 PM
Sprezzatura said...: Actually, if we were to have another revolution, I'd hope we'd be smart enough to make it relatively unimportant "who was in charge".

What historical analogies do we have that make you confident that the smartest revolutions were the ones where it is "relatively unimportant who was in charge?" Or, are you working more in the realm of untested (but very strongly felt, so that testing is not needed) theory?; 2/19/09, 11:44 PM
blake said...: What historical analogies do we have that make you confident that the smartest revolutions were the ones where it is "relatively unimportant who was in charge?"

I never said that but thanks for the bonus condescension:

Or, are you working more in the realm of untested (but very strongly felt, so that testing is not needed) theory?

I'd say the Founding Fathers worked very hard to limit the powers of the government--in other words, to reduce as far as humanly possible the significance of who was in charge.; 2/19/09, 11:51 PM
Peter Hoh said...: 1j, I am only trying to highlight the fact that we had a choice between two big-government pols in November.

Iirc, McCain was proposing a bailout for bad mortgages in September or October. I have little doubt that were he president, he would not be doing something quite similar with respect to intervening in the mortgage mess.; 2/20/09, 12:01 AM
Sprezzatura said...: I'd say the Founding Fathers worked very hard to limit the powers of the government--in other words, to reduce as far as humanly possible the significance of who was in charge.

So, your point was that we already have the best possible government? If not, what do you propose we could modify in order to further limit humans (which in some ways seems to be your goal) in government? Seems like we should at least identify some specific goals for this revolution since, so far, we've only identified Palladian, dead folks, Barr-Roots (or maybe Palin), and Rush as it's leaders.

Or, we may need to call off the revolution to rework the details.; 2/20/09, 12:01 AM
Derek Kite said...: Daniel: Have you ever lived through a housing bust? The faster it adjusts without someone trying to 'fix' things, the faster it gets back to normal.

In the meantime, people learn to read what they sign. People learn that $750,000 is alot of money. People learn to save. People don't take for granted that they can live off credit cards.

Other people who are smart get into houses they couldn't otherwise afford.

Then it gets back to normal.

All this does is make the problem last longer and get worse. And teach people to make the same mistake again.

Derek; 2/20/09, 12:15 AM
Peter Hoh said...: If only the GOP had used their majority to enact some of the items in the Contract With America when they had the chance.

Then we wouldn't have this deficit spending, and the President could have been using the line item veto these past 8 years to eliminate all those wasteful earmarks.

sarcasm off; 2/20/09, 12:16 AM
Anonymous said...: Peter, if you're going to be sarcastic, it helps to be reasonably accurate. See :http://tinyurl.com/yu66dj. Distortions such as yours only make it easier for those defending the GOP.; 2/20/09, 12:28 AM
Peter Hoh said...: thanks, Randy. I had forgotten about that part.; 2/20/09, 12:31 AM
TitusFreezeFrame said...: We all need to drink and then kill ourselves.

It is our only options.

We are so fucked I can even deal with it.

I am so angry. I worked my ass off this year and got my 40k bonus-big fucking deal-that bonus is going to pay for the idiot liberals.

Write your republican governors now!!!! They can not take the stimulus money. If they do they are toast. Are you with me? We are so fucked.

I am outraged I can't even type straight or see straight or do anything straight. I am like a big fag. I am mad, did you hear me? Mad. And Furious and Angry and Outraged.

When will this insanity end?

Help, Everyone needs to keep typing. We will get to the bottom of this.

Someone grab Palladian's really large love handles, which are a gay cardinal sin, and hang on for dear life!; 2/20/09, 12:57 AM
Eric said...: I listened in amazement, wondering if I was witnessing the beginnings of a groundswell of outrage among 'regular people.' This clip makes me wonder again.

Unfortunately, no. You see, we're past the tipping point - there are more people collecting than paying in, so this will go on until enough payers drop out to precipitate a crash.; 2/20/09, 12:58 AM
TitusFreezeFrame said...: I am just grateful that palladian is able to keep her saftig figure through all this commotion.

Let's throw palladian in the atlantic, hop on her, and sail for better seas.

Who's with me?

Did you hear Palladian is a fat gay? The indignity of it must be overwhelming. The invisible factor must be crushing. Being fat in the gay world is literally the gay cardinal sin. Gays hate other fat gays. How she manages no one really knows. It must be so debilitating and damaging. Thank God she is a good typer!

I beg of your Palladian. Put down the cheesecake and pick up a barbell. I am here for you girl. I care and want you to feel good about yourself.

Now let's work it.; 2/20/09, 1:05 AM
TitusFreezeFrame said...: Oh and liberals made palladian fat.; 2/20/09, 1:07 AM
blake said...: So, your point was that we already have the best possible government?

No, but we could do a lot worse than hit the reset button.

Seems like we should at least identify some specific goals for this revolution since, so far, we've only identified Palladian, dead folks, Barr-Roots (or maybe Palin), and Rush as it's leaders.

I wouldn't care if Obama or McCain or whoever was the President if the government were as limited as it was in 1800.; 2/20/09, 2:43 AM
KCFleming said...: I really wish the Democrats could better defend their polices than saying the GOP has also engaged in similar excessive spending, so why not make it 5 times worse? The logic escapes me; it's on the order of going on a bender to cure your hangover.

I also wish the left would not point out how popular their spending schemes are, as if that somehow meant it was the correct goal. People who throw money in the street find this is a really popular method. Until the money runs out and the people discover it was their own, there is none left, and their kids are on the hook for the deficit.

We are headed for a depression, and now, thanks to this Ponzi spending, a severe and maybe even brutal one. Economic hardships like that often involve violence on scales both large and small.

I really do hope the democrats have merely made a mess of things for a few years and then we can readjust, but I really really doubt it. I think they have screwed the pooch for the very last time.; 2/20/09, 6:31 AM
Paul said...: Palladian sez;

"That's because you're a pretend country operating with play money. The only good thing about this economic collapse is that it's going to toss you smug maple-sucking subjects of the Queen squarely on your poutine-fattened asses. You've been parasites on our heads for far too long. It will be wonderful to watch your paradise (such as it is) unravel.

Are you sure you're allowed to comment here in such an inflammatory manner? You have speech laws to consider. If you hurt my feelings again I may have to report you to the Ministry of Love."

Well done!! Are you sure you're not P.J. O'Rourke?; 2/20/09, 7:29 AM
ricpic said...: Bissage - The lead singer of the Raspberries? I was surrounded by that guy (that's right, there are many duplicates of his face) in the Ketskills, or as you goyim say, the Catskills, back in the day. Of course back in the day they weren't bobbing their hair, but the same type? absolutely.
Listen, if your life is supposed to be so blanking fascinating to the rest of us, why shouldn't my life return the favor?; 2/20/09, 7:53 AM
somefeller said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/09, 7:55 AM
somefeller said...: Pogo says: What makes you think 'educated professionals' are Atlases? WTF?

Well, if memory serves (I didn't read the book - 1000 pages of Ayn Rand is about 800 pages too much), the Atlas Shrugs concept was the idea that those who are productive in society, particularly those who work with their minds (architects, scientists, etc.), might withdraw from a decadent society, thus causing that society to fall because they were the ones holding it up. Atlas and all.

From what I've seen, in modern America, that's the educated professional class, which includes architects, scientists, engineers, doctors, lawyers, businesspeople and creative class types. And also from what I've seen of the polling trends, that previously GOP-leaning group is moving towards the Democrats. So yeah, that Atlases (to the extent Rand's little pet theory is even worth talking about) aren't the ones flocking to conservatism these days. I suspect part of the reason for that is because they don't want to be around the Palin Prole types who make comments like LOL or Right, Pogo, as if the world could get along without Transgendered Studies Professors! Duh! to (failingly) critique my comments. But for the record, I'm not including you in with that crowd. The doctors are always the last to get the picture, but sooner or later they come around.

Anyway, off to work! Can't let the world fall down from my shoulders.; 2/20/09, 8:00 AM
KCFleming said...: You include businessmen? Why?

Anyway, it's clear that the consumers now outvote the producers, and that a goodly number of producers believe the Democrat fairy tale that wealth can be built from a Ponzi scheme.

If wishes were horses, and popularity determined economic outcomes, you'd all be right. But, as in the 1930s, you are all crushingly wrong.

Since the US money supply has quadrupled in the last 15 years, and doubled in just the last 6 months, the party's gonna end quite soon. Deflation will be rapidly followed by Zimbabwean inflation.

Thanks, US gummint; we hardly knew ye.; 2/20/09, 8:10 AM
ricpic said...: somefeller - My guess is that the Atlas Shrugged effect would be not so much that productive-creative types would walk off the job, rather that they would respond to the disincentive of confiscatory taxes by not putting in the extra effort and extra hours that keep a dynamic society dynamic.; 2/20/09, 8:13 AM
KCFleming said...: ricpic is absolutely correct. Add in the fact that the productive will avoid spending except in areas that increase their own self-reliance.

Grey and black market tax avoidance schemes usually proliferate, however, and are treated with a blind eye, because even the USSR recognized that this was essential to keeping their fake economics afloat.

But is does mean stagnation.; 2/20/09, 8:18 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: somefeller, yes, you obviously didn't read the book.

The "Atlases" were not all doctors, lawyers, scientists, businesspeople, etc. Plenty of those people were "looters" and villains. The "Atlases" were the people who actually moved technology and wealth forward. Job title was not determinative.

Advances aren't made by the collective. Advances, though they benefit the collective, are made by individuals. That was sort of the whole point of the book.; 2/20/09, 8:36 AM
Bissage said...: [R]icpic, it’s funny what you said about Eric Carmen’s appearance. I never knew what he looked like until I watched that video and my first thought was: “Hey! I knew a guy in high school who looked just like that with different hair.”

I was also surprised to learn that that song was dirty. I was a little kid when it came out and I thought the lyrics were “I love you so please go-oo away” sort of like “Go Away Little Girl” by Donny Osmond or “Young Girl” by Gary Puckett and the Union Gap.

Hey, wait a minute! Those songs were kind of dirty too!

Man, I’d better catch up!; 2/20/09, 9:01 AM
Sofa King said...: From what I've seen, in modern America, that's the educated professional class, which includes architects, scientists, engineers, doctors, lawyers, businesspeople and creative class types. And also from what I've seen of the polling trends, that previously GOP-leaning group is moving towards the Democrats.

sanction of the victim; 2/20/09, 9:06 AM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: somefeller-

Also note that the Atlases of the book were small in number. I don't think the book ever states how many, but the impression I got was on the order of a hundred or so.

In other words, they're not going to show up in a poll of Democratic / Republican trends. Not that they would have any interest in voting for the sorts of Republicans who have been running for office recently anyway.; 2/20/09, 9:09 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Well, if memory serves (I didn't read the book - 1000 pages of Ayn Rand is about 800 pages too much)

Would illustrations have helped?; 2/20/09, 9:16 AM
Anonymous said...: Where's Althouse?; 2/20/09, 9:22 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: Where's Althouse?

Maybe there's a sale on mead in Indiana.; 2/20/09, 9:23 AM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: Would illustrations have helped?

I could have used some pictures of Dagny. She seemed to have that "There's Something About Mary" thing going on.; 2/20/09, 9:23 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: Well, if memory serves (I didn't read the book...

Also, if you didn't read the book in the first place, what memory is serving you?; 2/20/09, 9:24 AM
Peter Hoh said...: Pogo, some of the spending is defensible, but the mortgage bailout idea floated around is not, which is why no one can offer a defense of it, other than point out that it is exactly the kind of thing that those in power have been doing for most of recent memory.

It appears that Althouse has fled the country. I expect that she's somewhere in the South Pacific right now, not particularly caring if they have wi-fi to go with the Mai-Tai.; 2/20/09, 9:27 AM
Anonymous said...: Maybe that pin in the middle of the ocean yesterday was actually her cry for help.

Also, my pin includes a joke, that I'm sure no one would realize, but zoom in really close and see.; 2/20/09, 9:32 AM
MadisonMan said...: Somewhere warm and non-dreary.; 2/20/09, 9:39 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Palladian said..."I'd rather Titus post his tiresome descriptions of defecation than read one of his painfully unfunny faux-outrage "rants". Titus doesn't do sarcasm well."

I loved Titus's rant! And I was just talking about how great his "morning loaf" posts are. Don't you realize Titus wants all of us to think of him when we produce our "loaves." Oh, look! I think Titus would think that was just adorable!; 2/20/09, 9:48 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Don't you realize Titus wants all of us to think of him when we produce our "loaves." Oh, look! I think Titus would think that was just adorable!

The other day you professed your love and understanding of DTL and now this.

I'm starting to worry.; 2/20/09, 10:00 AM
Peter Hoh said...: Henry, I zoomed in. Always wanted to visit, but never got around to it on any of my trips to Philly.; 2/20/09, 10:13 AM
Palladian said...: "I loved Titus's rant! And I was just talking about how great his "morning loaf" posts are."

Your standards have really slipped.

Anyway, thanks for all the brilliant and original fat jokes, Titus. Here's hoping you'll be able to continue to get all your anti-viral drugs during the coming depression!; 2/20/09, 10:24 AM
Bart DePalma said...: I cannot imagine why the Chicago traders were catcalling Obamanomics just because we are now at Dow 7326 and $1000+ gold.

Interestingly, the Chicago Tea Party was also the subject over at Air America when I drove home from Court. The expert economists over at this failing entity told their entire listener base of 200 watching their 401Ks shrink that the Tea Party was just sour grapes by former "Masters of the Universe" and that folks simply have to get used to not making money on the markets anymore.

Given that Obama added an Air America host to his WH press corps and entertained these wingnuts at a private meeting at the White House last week, one can assume that this White House at least partially shares Air America's viewpoint on the markets.

I pulled all of my retirement out of the markets the day Obama signed the Porkulus. God help you folks stuck in 401Ks.; 2/20/09, 10:39 AM
Revenant said...: And also from what I've seen of the polling trends, that previously GOP-leaning group is moving towards the Democrats.

"Moving towards Democrats" is just a euphemistic way of saying "currently prefer Republicans". And it is unlikely that four years of having their pockets picked for the benefit of Democrats is going to endear them to the party.; 2/20/09, 11:17 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I pulled all of my retirement out of the markets the day Obama signed the Porkulus. God help you folks stuck in 401Ks.

Then again it's also a wonderful buying opportunity.; 2/20/09, 11:21 AM
Revenant said...: So, your point was that we already have the best possible government?

You can't possibly be stupid enough to think our current government bears much resemblance to the one established at the founding of the country. Can you? Hell, a good 90% or more of the current non-military federal budget would have been flat-out unconstitutional in 1800.

Welfare? Unconstitutional.

Medicare? Unconstitutional.

Social Security? Unconstitutional.

War on drugs? Unconstitutional.

"Stimulus" package? Unconstitutional.

Etc, etc.; 2/20/09, 11:31 AM
Revenant said...: Then again it's also a wonderful buying opportunity.

Maybe not. I wouldn't be surprised if the market declined into the 4000s. I wouldn't be THAT surprised if it went even lower. It'll come back, of course.; 2/20/09, 11:32 AM
KCFleming said...: Agreed, Rev. 4-5000 it will be.

Maybe for a decade.; 2/20/09, 11:35 AM
Peter Hoh said...: Seems to me that the same logic that one applies to the housing bubble ought to apply to the stock market bubble.; 2/20/09, 12:04 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Peter, but now it's lower than in 1999? Have we been in a bubble for ten years?; 2/20/09, 12:13 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Freeman, I remember hearing an old-school investor talk about how the market had divorced itself from reality back in the early 90s, so yeah, I can believe it.

I don't hold myself up as a stock market expert. If I recall his point, though, it was that the primary driving force in the modern market was speculation about how much a stock price would rise, not dividends.; 2/20/09, 12:25 PM
Bart DePalma said...: Everyone who owns a 401K, all aboard the Obamanomics Scream Machine roller coaster. The Dow has now plunged to 7299 as financial sector stock turns to toilet paper on rumors that Obama will nationalize the banks.

Mr. President, get on TV and reassure the markets before we relive 1929.; 2/20/09, 12:53 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Bart, you mean stock prices can go down? Why was I never advised about this?

The whole thread is about how homeowners should not have counted on a continually rising housing market. But somehow, a continually rising stock market is a birthright about to be stolen by Obama?; 2/20/09, 12:59 PM
KCFleming said...: But somehow, a continually rising stock market is a birthright about to be stolen by Obama?

No, it's been about how the Obama Democrat financial clusterf*ck bailout bill will create a massive Depression that lasts 10 years.; 2/20/09, 1:17 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: But somehow, a continually rising stock market is a birthright about to be stolen by Obama?

No, I think the carping is more about Obama causing a crashing stock market. There's no good reason for him to cause it to crash, and yet he is. And on housing, rewarding bad behavior will not stop a housing crash, it will only make the problem recur.; 2/20/09, 2:12 PM
Peter Hoh said...: So there's no way that the stock market was overvalued before January 20?; 2/20/09, 2:21 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: So there's no way that the stock market was overvalued before January 20?

Could have been but that's irrelevant. This isn't a natural correction. It's investors being spooked, I think on purpose, by Obama.; 2/20/09, 2:32 PM
Bart DePalma said...: peter hoh said...

So there's no way that the stock market was overvalued before January 20?

No way.

There are dozens of undervalued stocks for solid companies out there. The P/E absolute and relative ratios are in K-Mart blue light special territory.

Money is flowing out of the market and into gold because investors figure expansion of government ala the 70s will lead to stagflation.

Money is fleeing financial sector stocks because investors figure Obama plans to nationalize the banks and stiff their shareholders.; 2/20/09, 2:42 PM
Bart DePalma said...: Bart DePalma said...

Money is fleeing financial sector stocks because investors figure Obama plans to nationalize the banks and stiff their shareholders.

To further illustrate the market is reacting to Obama's interventions in the economy, the market stopped its free fall for the moment after the White House backed away from widely reported plans to nationalize the banks.; 2/20/09, 3:08 PM
Peter Hoh said...: Why do I get the feeling that Wall Street has been playing an extended game of stock flipping?; 2/20/09, 8:59 PM