Meanwhile:
Labour initially adopted a tough stance on burglary, enacting a Tory plan in 2000 to impose minimum three-year jail terms for those convicted of a third offence, although the measure was watered down to give judges more discretion.
But since then magistrates and judges have increasingly been encouraged to hand out more community punishments, and the proportion of convicted burglars sent to jail has plunged from 51 per cent to less than 40 per cent last year - down from 14,338 offenders to just 9,237 - while the number of suspended sentences has soared.
Police recorded more than 280,000 domestic burglaries in England and Wales last year but clear-up rates are low at just 13 per cent, and a quarter of all burglars caught by police are let off with a caution.
The Home Office's recent 'policing pledge' does not expect forces to visit burglary victims promptly unless they claim to be 'distressed', and sentencing guidelines published last month urge courts to consider softer punishments for burglars who steal to fund a drug habit.
Posts
93 comments:
This has got to be the dumbest bunch of legislators in existence (a mighty feat, indeed!).
Let me see - a slap on the hand for burglars. Whatever will they do? Thank their fortune in being treated so leniently and reform?
Nah.
Make a career out of busting into other people's houses, slapping them around, and taking their stuff?
But, of course.
The government has more important things to do than enforce law. Wait...
They need their own version of a second ammendment.
Next it will be required to make the burglar tea and help him make the stolen goods easily transportable. GOD forbid the burglar injure himself while engaged in "Bad Santa taking the toys back."
I say, would you like some clotted cream with that crumpet? then pull out a 12 gauge...
Britain has become a nation of pussies.
In fact, they are harder on homeowners who fight back against criminals than they are against the burglars.
But the US is adopting the same weak appeasement style, at least my town is.
I say, as in Gran Torino, Get off of my lawn.
Soon enough, Sharia Law will be the law of the land, and burglary will slowly disappear with a lot of one handed men begging for food in the street.
England confiscated all private firearms. So, in addition to minimal legal sanctions, a burglar knows that he is entering an unarmed, target rich environment.
Coming to a country near you, thanks to our new socialist overlords.
"sentencing guidelines published last month urge courts to consider softer punishments for burglars who steal to fund a drug habit."
Wow. The British government is subsidizing junkies who steal.
Why would anyone want more stealing junkies?
I mean, we subsidize single mothers here, and look what we have.
Trey
Now if they could only have a "slowly dawning realization" about tooth decay.
A man's home is his castle says the headline, but they neglect to point out that castles had both passive and active defense systems. Passive defense was things like moats, gates, and thick walls; active defense was things like boiling oil, archers atop the battlements, and fully armed defenders inside.
I'll give the Lord Chief Justice points for trying to fix things, but unless the subjects of Britain are allowed to arm themselves for defense, it is only a half-measure.
I'll also point out that the sort of crime-coddling culture UK has had to put up with since Labour won back in the 90's is about to be inflicted on us here in the US, courtesy of all you Obama voters.
I say this often in my own blog: look at UK, what you see there in the way of crime and rude behavior is what you'll end up with here in the US, if the Dems have their way.
Let me get this straight. Guns are confiscated from homeowners,and if they use a knife, then the Law gets seriously involved to protect young toughs who are engaged in the doing of their daily Hunter/Gatherer activities. So the word "homeowner" means "sacrificial Lambs". Please tell me that this phony peace at any price attitude is not a mental illness that will infect us here. The English Legal System will not protect anyone, so why do they think Moslems will ever want to become like them. No one else is that criminally stupid, are they? Come to think of it these are the same guys who say they must take control of the World Air System next to "Protect" everyone.
There is at least one study that shows the very real affect of gun ownership on the kind of home invasions you get. Hint - U.S. home invaders prefer to enter unoccupied homes. Not so in the U.K.
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm
Get off your high horse, people. I love this kind of fist pounding that Ann starts and all you syncophants sign onto every time there is an article about lax punishments in Europe.
But let's put this number in some context here:
Residential burglaries in England and Wales: 280,000 (from the post.)
Residential burglaries in the U.S. in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find, but probably little changed since then): 2,154,126 (source.
Population of England & Wales (Wikipedia): 53,390,300.
Population of the United States 306,150,000 (census bureau current estimate.)
This works out to 5.244 burglaries per 1,000 population in England and Wales, vs. 7.036 per 1,000 in the United States.
Now, granted there are many differences culturally and otherwise between the United States and England but (just like the post Ann put up a couple of months ago about murder in Germany) it is funny to see Americans jumping all over Europeans and criticizing the way they handle crime when we handle it 'the American way' and get a worse result.
You'd have a better case if you wanted to criticize the way they handle crime in South Africa, Mexico or Russia (i.e. a country with a higher crime rate than the U.S.)
Eli,
British crime statistics are full of shit, and have been for quite awhile.
Eli Blake is full of shit, and have been for quite awhile.
Fixed.
Theodore Dalrymple on one aspect of bullshit UK crime stats:
"A recent incident—the assault of a 96-year-old man—has brought home to the British public just how little it can rely on the state for protection. The assailant, 44, was frustrated that the elderly man was in his way as he tried to board a train. Shouting “You bastard!,” he punched the man in the face, blinding him in one eye. The attack occurred in full view of many other passengers, and a closed-circuit television camera captured it as well.
Police subsequently apprehended the man, who claimed that the 96-year-old had attacked him first. It would be difficult to imagine a more brutally unfeeling and egotistical crime or more cynical self-justification. It is extremely unlikely that the guilty man is a model of kindness in his other human relations.
The judge in the case, however, said that sending the man to jail would “do nothing to protect the public,” and therefore sentenced him to just three years’ probation. How he came to the opinion that requiring the perpetrator to have a brief chat once a week with a probation officer would achieve this objective is a complete mystery. As the judge himself conceded, “a significant prison sentence would well be justified,” and the charge was such that he had the power to sentence the guilty man to life imprisonment.
The very next day, fittingly enough, the government released figures revealing how probation endangers the public. Over the previous year, serious offenders who had been released from prison early and placed on probation committed at least 83 murders and rapes, a significant portion of the national total. Given the extremely low arrest rate for reported crimes of violence in Britain—and bearing in mind that one-half of all crimes are not even reported—the real figures for violence committed by serious offenders placed on probation after early release from prison must be significantly higher."
They need their own version of a second ammendment.
They have one, in the English Bill of Rights (1689).
Pogo:
The only British crime statistic I used was the 280,000 taken directly from Ann's post. So are you claiming that is full of shit?
Clearly, some of you have had your bluff called. I rebutted the 'hang 'em high' mentality that you all have by citing some facts, and as Matt's comment shows some of the commenters here are clueless about how to deal with logic or facts.
I rest my case.
You'd expect Britain to have burglars, because of the castles.
They ran out of treasures and are now going after homes as well.
It's etymological leakage.
Don't forget, these are the same people that spend tons of money putting security cameras all over their country. If the cameras aren't to catch crooks, what are they for?
And here's a recent case where a British judge threw out a case, stating that allowing a witness to testify would be prejudicial because of her good character and compelling evidence. He said she "was a particularly impressive witness because she showed courage, clarity of thought and was undoubtedly honest. The jury may lend more weight to her evidence than the facts allow. You cannot be sure she got it right" after only being face-to-face with the burglar for three seconds. Three seconds! That's an eternity for looking at someone's face.
Eli, Althouse only reprinted the stat the Brits use. It is a bullshit number.
And what have you proved, by doing bullshit math on bullshit numbers? You have proved nothing.
And what bluff have you called?
Are you mad?
Shit man, you seem to know next to nothing at all about crime or how to deal with it. Just like the weak-minded Brits, caving into any and all demands from the criminals. Pussies all.
Dalrymple agains:
"After the North Koreans, the British are probably the most highly surveyed people in the world. Around 10,000 publicly funded closed-circuit television (CCTV) cameras—to say nothing of the private ones—watch London every day. The average Briton, you often hear, winds up photographed 300 times a day as he goes about his business, even if his business is crime.
The problem with the criminal law in Britain today is that it neither incapacitates criminals nor deters those inclined, for whatever reason, to break the law. The crime-inclined are probably more numerous than ever before, which makes leniency doubly disastrous. The huge number of CCTV cameras in Britain—perhaps as many as a third of all such cameras in the world—is an official response to the increased lawlessness of the population. But as with so much official activity in Britain, it achieves nothing. It is para-detection and para-deterrence rather than real detection and real deterrence.
In fact, the surveillance may even make matters worse, for if people run no additional risks in breaking the law while under surveillance, they may conclude that they have absolutely nothing to fear from the law. What is certain is that we begin to feel Big Brother watching us; thus arises a strange alliance between leniency and authoritarianism."
I stole a coffetable book once from my mothers grandparents house and onto my fathers grandparents house. We were left with them for a time.
I felt it would be more "appreciated".
I put it in a book shelf for someone else to discover.
It was about the first papal visit. It had a lot of slick pictures of the pope and various dignitaries.
I was never found out.
Residential burglaries in the U.S. in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find, but probably little changed since then): 2,154,126 (source.
Look again. That is not the figure for residential burglaries.
Burglary is just below rape and assault/robbery as crimes. It is a form of assault actually, because it is a violation of your home. There is a huge difference of someone stealing stuff from your yard and stealing from your home. Plus, it often can lead to murder, rape, and assault/robbery.
That is why it is okay to shoot dead any intruder to your home.
Eli, I just stated that you are full of shit. A fact that you have proven over and over again with your turgid liberal talking points. You never had a terrorist you wouldn't coddle or a criminal you won't make an excuse for. Unless he is a Republican. Then you would "Hang Em High."
You are simply a more polite Luckyoldson.
Over the years I've noticed that when I let my son get away with one thing, he tries something else. Maybe it's just me.
Reader_iam's all-purpose, broad-brush explanation, formulated long long long ago, for why people do what they do:
Because they can.
But seriously, folks:
One thing I'd like to know about international crime statistics is whether they're compiled based on convictions, or what.
What are the rates reflecting, exactly? Do they capture what we think they're capturing? Do they mean what we think they mean?
Disclaimer: Neither statistics nor crime are my areas of expertise, and I'm more than happy to hear from/be criticized by those whose areas of expertise those are.
That said, a complete hypothetical.
Let's say there are two city blocks, just for the sake of the hypothetical. Let's say crime rates for each are based on arrests.
One is recorded as experiencing 10 burglaries in a month, based on arrests. The other is recorded as experiencing five burglaries in a month, based on arrests.
If that's as far as it goes, it's totally reasonable to assume that block A is more burglary-ridden than block B.
But what if those 10 recorded arrests in block A correspond to 10 actual, total incidents of burglary, while in the case of block B, there were 15 actual, total incidents of burglary?
A crime rate based on arrests etc. wouldn't give you the real picture, then, would it, in terms of incidence? Instead, it would be measuring something else and perhaps give a false picture of actual criminality (in terms of burglaries, anyway) as a result.
This is a problem with statistics in a vacuum.
Just one layperson's musings ... .
My point here is skepticism, not to come down on one side or another of the "which culture has more crime" debate.
Eli, sweetie, on the page you linked, bullet point 5 states "Of all burglary offenses in 2005, 65.8 percent were of residential structures." Adjusting for that the US has 4.63 residential burglaries per 1000 to vs. 5.24 per 1000 in England and Wales. Details are important. But don't take it too hard. You are every bit as clever and correct as a professional journalist.
Reader, Baltimore's crime statistics have been cooked so much, they are nothing but mush. When O'Malley, now Governor, was first mayor, he had a review of crime statistics performed that showed crime was 22% higher than reported by the previous mayor. Of course, crime dropped a whopping 40% under O'Malley's leadership. Funny thing, though, he refused any audits of his crime stats. Hey, it made him governor.
England. Pendulum.
Sometimes when Eli gets on a roll, he rolls down hill, gathering no moss.
When I was younger and poorer, I lived in an extremely dicey neighborhood. I was burglarized four times. According to my math, what I saved on rent versus what I lost in burglaries made my living accomodations economically sensible. I had very few portable possessions. My burglars would have made more working for miminum wage.... Although my financial losses were small, there was a psychic loss. After each burglary I felt depressed and violated. Nonetheless inertia and cheapness are the guiding principles of my life and I remained lodged in my cheap apartment....My last burglar gained entry to the roof and went down the airshaft. He robbed all four apartments that faced the airshaft. It was quite a feat of ahtleticism climbing down that airshaft and climbing thru the small windows that faced it. From me, he was able to steal a half empty bottle of Canadian Club and a small radio. For the risks he took I sure hope he did a little better with the other apartments....His hands were sooty from coming down the airshaft. His handprints were clearly outlined besides the peephole by my door. He must have kept watch when he heard someone in the hall. I had a desk by the door. On that desk was a butcher knife which he had moved from the kitchen. That at long last freaked me out, and I soon moved...Here's my question for liberals: if electronic wiretapping is such a disturbing violation of privacy that its practitioners deserve jail time, what do burglars deserve?
In a recent survey, three out of four Eli Blake's agreed that terrorists who were caught red handed on the battlefield should be released to kill more Americans because that would make the Europeans like us more.
Pogo,
"But the US is adopting the same weak appeasement style, at least my town is."
Egad, brother--but I don't know whether to advise you to push back and change things, or to cut your losses and run (where is it you live, again? Somewhere in MN maybe?)
I can say with confidence, however, that most of the rest of the country is going the other direction, with enhanced castle doctrines and stand-your-ground laws, the best of which also prevent private lawsuits against those who have been ruled to have used justifiable force in self-defense.
And you're missing the point, Eli--it isn't the raw number or the percentage incidence, but rather the trend--and this has been very bad in England, for quite some time (even if you don't try to adjust for underreporting as Pogo suggests.)
I don't know about you guys but the only "facts" I will consider are ones properly filtered and screened through a right wing website. I distrust anyone that may have an education, talk fluently, or appear smart. And never, ever listen to scientists; a.k.a. liberal environazis, who only chose their field of expertise to strip away your freedoms.
Incidentally, except for the last one, I never reported any of these burglaries to the police....The last one I thought the police could take the fingerprints and arrest the burglar. Right.
In a recent survey, three out of four garage mahal’s found that wanking in the privacy of their own home was much more productive than leaving inane liberal talking points on a right wing website.
Unfortunately the fourth one shows up here.
Garage, I think it's a fact that even scientists lean left (at least academic ones). And it is because they too nurse at the teat of big Mommy.
Eli and garage,
What is it you find satisfactory about British law enforcement: the surveillance cameras? the lighter punishment for drug addicts? probation for burglars? if you were the victim of a home invasion, would you be satisfied with these standards?
"What is it you find satisfactory about British law enforcement: the surveillance cameras? the lighter punishment for drug addicts? probation for burglars? if you were the victim of a home invasion, would you be satisfied with these standards?"
They don't find any of it satisfactory. They just know that REICH-WINGERS seem to value the enforcement of property crime law so therefore they must be against it. If REICH-WINGERS suddenly decided that the UN was the best organization ever, you'd get whiplash watching them do a 180º swirl.
For a wonderful depiction of what happens to liberals when they're "mugged by reality", see Kubrick, Stanley, "A Clockwork Orange".
There you go Knox. Palladian is a world renown expert in the liberal psyche. You don't even have to ask, he'll tell!
I can't think of a more boring subject than British crime stats. What's funny watching though is the Tough on Crime commentators like Palladian who at the same time think even looking into crimes committed by Republicans will be THE END OF DEMOCRACY. WITCH HUNT! HORRIBLE PRECEDENT.
I for one think that waterboarding terrorists to find out where they are going to attack next is much worse than beating and robbing elderly people in their homes. Those old pink people have lived long enough.
"...Tough on Crime commentators like Palladian who at the same time think even looking into crimes committed by Republicans will be THE END OF DEMOCRACY. WITCH HUNT! HORRIBLE PRECEDENT..."
What the fuck are you talking about? You probably don't even know.
Poor woman
Strangled in her very own bed as she read
But that's ok
'Cause she was old and she would have died anyway
Don't blame
The sweet and tender hooligan, hooligan
And he said that he'd never, never, never, never do it again
Not until the next time
I couldn't find the Smiths original on youtube. The link is to an inferior, but decent, cover.
Here is a report that suggests that the burglary rate in the UK is more like 3.3%. Underreporting is common if you don't think the police will even bother. Methodology is all laid out. I wouldn't bet my life on the study, but it is more believable than police reports:
PDF file
http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/icvs/pdf_files/EUICS%20-%20The%20Burden%20of%20Crime%20in%20the%20EU.pdf
I can't think of a more boring subject than British crime stats.
garage, that's a chickenshit answer.
Eli, any thoughts?
Great Britian has become the nanny-state that many envisioned but never thought would be a reality. It's a reality and ever since it's gone about disarming it's populace, retrained them that self-defence is immoral if not insensitive, and has taken political correctness to a state of insanity, then it's no wonder that some of the crypt keepers of the hierarchy bemoan that burglary is a serious problem. Thanks for waking up Rip Van Wankers and telling us what we already know. Twits.
garage mahal said...
I don't know about you guys but the only "facts" I will consider are ones properly filtered and screened through a right wing website. I distrust anyone that may have an education, talk fluently, or appear smart. And never, ever listen to scientists; a.k.a. liberal environazis, who only chose their field of expertise to strip away your freedoms.
Translation: Well, since I'm a liberal pussy, I really don't have an answer other than it's a smear campaign initiated by the right-wing kook fringe of the world. You know Garage, being a liberal isn't all that bad, you can just sit back and watch the inane policies you've come to know and love and watch as societies crumble because of them. How hard is it for you to sit back, make some popcorn, and not take any action or afford any judgments. Your ideas are the issue here. The same ones that are in line with the rest of the idiocy that is the left and it's policies. The same ones that England has taken upon itself to foist onto it's populace.
Yeah, it's easy for you to make little quips about how awful conservatism and conservatives are, but in totality your ideology is bullshit and always has been. You and your ideological cadre are as fathomless in your explanation of why you believe the crap that you do, but then you try to insult the rest of us by trying to explain it as a function of policy (governmental or otherwise) and societal behavior. Your ideology is a fraudulent vat of crap. The real danger is that you know it and you really don't care because deep down inside you are a totalitarian at heart; subjugation through feelings based policies.
I agree with Pogo that Eli is indeed full of shit on the British crime wave. The 5 most troubling indicators on the Brits are:
1. The public has lost confidence in their sovereign to protect them. This is evidenced by half of crimes not rising to the level of violent felony not being reported. Then people refusing to testify when people do get caught because they believe no punishment will be meted out and testimony will endanger them with the thugs.
(similar to "No Snitch! US inner-city neighborhoods where half crime is not reported and murder resolution rates have gone from 55% down to 8-10%).
2. Failure to punish "gateway" crimes like burglary and violent mugging has been tracked in the UK to perps later "graduating" to violent armed robbery, gang rape, murder.
3. The UK is experiencing a significant emigration of it's professional classes, it's most productive people. Expats asked in the WSJ about this, from the US to Brazil to China said that taxes were the main reason, second the pervasive feeling their family and friends no longer felt safe in their homes or on the streets.
4. The confidence of the British people in their government telling the truth is badly eroded from them being caught "massaging" crime and economic statistics again and again.
5. Unlike other countries where crime has been at a chronic level or slowly changing over decades, even centuries - in Europe's countrys, crime has exploded. Doubling in some cases in under 15 years. "No go areas" like America's "hoods" are multiplying instead of shrinking. All consonant with liberal criminal justice notions and directly correlated to high crime rate minority immigrants and their 2nd gen spawn. Leading to understandable racial trouble.
****************
On the other hand, right-wingers have their own form of hysteria.
1. Picturing a UK cowering in fear of "Islamofascists", when the truth is there are plenty of friends and good relations and even intimate relations between whites and Jamaicans and Asians of Sikh, Muslim, and Hindu ancestry.
Neocon-Jew alarmism about "Islamofascism will kill you all!!" is set against the reality of native Brits that may have a Jordanian doctor, play football with Caribbeans, have Asian school chums and families over for a get together, love Ahmed and all his family at the curry shop, and deep down dislike only the Scots and Liverpoolians.
2. fcai said...
England confiscated all private firearms.
Not true. Just certain classes of firearms, not "all confiscated". And, at many levels, UK is reconsidering if they went too far with those, and banning homeowners and women out doing their business from "non-lethal" forms of self-defense like MACE..
3. Bob - I say this often in my own blog: look at UK, what you see there in the way of crime and rude behavior is what you'll end up with here in the US, if the Dems have their way.
Too simplistic. Not a blanket "The Democrats". Many democrats are hard-nosed on crime. Reducing both Parties to caricatures never works.
"All Democrats take their orders from ACLU Jews out of Hollywood & Manhattan that love communists, thugs and rapists..And giving your God-given earnings to swarthy parasites after getting their cut." "All bitter, angry, less educated people are Republicans who want backwoods Theocrats who believe men once kept pet dinosaurs, in charge - Of your bedrooms and giving their wealthy thieves full access to plunder your stock portfolios."
I see Cedarford is still traveling through that craggy twilight valley between Nazism and Communism.
""All Democrats take their orders from ACLU Jews out of Hollywood & Manhattan that love communists, thugs and rapists..And giving your God-given earnings to swarthy parasites after getting their cut." "All bitter, angry, less educated people are Republicans who want backwoods Theocrats who believe men once kept pet dinosaurs, in charge - Of your bedrooms and giving their wealthy thieves full access to plunder your stock portfolios."
Why are you quoting yourself? So are we supposed to guess which quote was from the pre-2008 full-on Nazi Cedarford and which is from the post-election Obama-loving socialist authoritarian Cedarford?
How many of you want to bet that Cedarford will be voting for the Green party in 4 years? Not the Ralph Nader Green party, but a special one tailored just for Cedarford's brand of wacky socio-fascism? Or maybe another "green party" suits him better?
Matt wrote: "Those old pink people have lived long enough."
Good one, I laughed.
Trey
Don't you have some smooth, hairless student's salami to suck off, Palladian? It's the weekend and I'm sure you have some "tutoring opportunities" if you look for them...
"Don't you have some smooth, hairless student's salami to suck off, Palladian? It's the weekend and I'm sure you have some "tutoring opportunities" if you look for them..."
You sure have a detailed little fantasy going there, Cedarford. It's like you can't stop thinking about it. Creepy.
You know when there is only one or two new threads this place gets a real "Lord of the Flies" vibe. Just sayn'
Eli Blake - Residential burglaries in England and Wales: 280,000 (from the post.) Residential burglaries in the U.S. in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find, but probably little changed since then): 2,154,126 (source.) Population of England & Wales (Wikipedia): 53,390,300. Population of the United States 306,150,000 (census bureau current estimate.) This works out to 5.244 burglaries per 1,000 population in England and Wales, vs. 7.036 per 1,000 in the United States.
According to the British Crime Survey, there were 729k domestic burglaries "last" year (April 2007 - March 2008) in England and Wales.
And as Paul Zrimsek pointed out, the FBI says there were roughly 1.4 million domestic burglaries in the U.S. in 2005 (65.8% of 2,154,126).
UK: 13.65 burglaries per 1k population.
US: 4.63 burglaries per 1k population.
I stole a pineapple from a pineapple farm on Maui, and lived to tell the tale. This crime has gone unprosecuted, and I have not performed restitution.
[quote]UK: 13.65 burglaries per 1k population.
US: 4.63 burglaries per 1k population.[/quote]
The proportion of "hot" burglaries in Britain is even greater (IIRC, 5x). "Hot" burglaries are of occupied dwelling and often result in serious assaults.
Why are both crimes so low in America? Here, burglars fear being shot by the armed homeowner more that being caught by the police. Higher magnitude and frequency of possible injury yields greater deterrence. Natch!
See: Wright and Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous Ch. 7 (1986).
That Home Office report distinguishes between "number of crimes based on BCS interviews" (729k domestic burglaries) and "number of crimes recorded by the police" (280k domestic burglaries).
Maybe the latter is more comparable to the fbi stats? Using the UK police and US fbi numbers:
UK: 5.24 burglaries per 1k population
US: 4.63 burglaries per 1k population
it is funny to see Americans jumping all over Europeans and criticizing the way they handle crime when we handle it 'the American way' and get a worse result.
Yeah, you make a good point. I agree with some of these commenters who are pro 2nd Amendment. And I certainly agree that burglary is a serious crime deserving prison. But the idea that America's criminal justice system is some model to proudly hold up as an example to Europe is pretty funny. Don't even get me started on that.
We're having a big protest against our justice system here in the Cleveland area on MLK Day because Cuyahoga County Jail recently murdered singer Sean Levert and the Cleveland Plain Dealer recently had a series of articles proving that black defendents in drug cases tend to get felonies whereas white defendents in nearly identical cases get diverted to programs to avoid felonies.
We're locking a massive number of people up into disgustingly run jails and prison, and and hitting people with felonies over small fry shit (thus increasing the chances they'll feel stuck in the criminal world), and there are still whole neighborhoods in Cleveland where residents are literally prisoners inside their homes after dark because of all the violent crime.
No, I don't think we're in a position to be lecturing Europe on fighting crime.
"No, I don't think we're in a position to be lecturing Europe on fighting crime."
Of course not. Your kind thinks we're not in a position to be lecturing Europe on anything.
Are you going to have a protest march against Sarah Palin's Pussy anytime soon? It seems to be unfairly targeting you for being an unappealingly stupid and obnoxious douchebag.
Loafing Oaf is another one of the
pussies who can not excuse the criminals fast enough.
I just figured out why he hates Sarah Palin's pussy so much.
It's pussy envy.
Gee
Cedarford would find the Jooz angle in this story.
Jooz in England, it all began with Ivanhoe.
Actually those Hollywood Jooz were tricky: they got Liz Taylor to play the Joo-ess so that the goyim would be fooled into sympathizing with her.
Y'all are welcome to move down here to Kennesaw, Georgia... We have a mandatory gun ownership law. Want to guess what the safest suburban town in Atlanta is with the fewest burglaries and home invasions?
TY
I shoudda known that Ivanhoe was counterfeit history. The people not only had all their teeth, the teeth were pearly-white!
PS Does Manchester United blow the big ones as do the NYG? Do their players have more teeth then NYG players? Does it have more of Cedarford’s “Neocon Jews” than the NYG?
Stephanie
Kennesaw, the safest suburban town in Atlanta.
Say it ain't so, Joe!
Further illuminating thoughts on the economics of burglary: I was thinking that I made a greater profit being burglarized than the burglar made burglarizing me. Because I lived in a high crime area in East Harlem the rent was about one third that of an area twenty blocks south. I saved about two hundred dollars a month rent. My commute time was not significantly greatear, and I was still near Central Park. All four times I was burglarized my losses were minimal. I don't know what the total was, but it was certainly less than four or five hundred dollars. My burglar(s) on the other hand worked in a high risk profession for what probably worked out to be less than minimal wages. I certainly would not lower myself down an airshaft and attempt to squeeze through a small window for less than a thousand dollars. I had more Spartan accomodations than most people, but my guess is that my neighbors did not have loads of gold jewelry or Picasso's on the wall. Also my guess is that if you're small enough to climb through a small window, you're small enough to get thoroughly whomped by the tenant if he hears you breaking in. Burglarizing apartments in a low rent district is a dead-end job, and I would not recommend it to anyone......By facilitating their entry into this hamburger-flipper type criminal activity, liberals are putting them on a vocational path with scant rewards and harrowing failures. While crime does keep the rents down and make housing more affordable for the poor. it remains, nonetheless, a net minus. Whatever money I logically saved by living in a high crime area, I psychologically paid for with increased stress and depression....I know this is a position that liberals are not comfortable with but I believe that for the good of both the criminal and his victims, burglary should be discouraged.
As someone who works in Massachusetts and lives in New Hampshire, I occasionally hear of a burglary at a co-workers home. Whenever this comes up, I always point out that in New Hampshire, we have guns, and know how to use them. (Not me personally, but any potential felons would get better odds playing Russian Roulette than trying to break into the homes in my neighborhood.)
I own a gun and a shovel and that's really all any potential burglars need to know about me. I suspect if the UK is really this ridiculous about prosecuting crimes people will just move a bit out of town where no one will take note of their digging habits.
The thing about not locking up burglars makes me thinks of what my students who are police (a grad program) say about burglars.
They uniformly agree on a couple of things. One, only three things make a burglar quit burgling -- being in jail, dying, or becoming a fence. (One said that he did know a second-story man who got too old to climb to the second floors, so he started sneaking in back doors.)
The second is that every burglar they ever caught does many, many burglaries before they're caught (the term usually used is "dozens").
Finally, they uniformly agree that the only way to keep burglars from burgling is to keep them locked up.
I would take British crime statistics with a grain of salt. A friend of mine was attacked on the subway (or, er, "tube"), and when he went to report it the police pushed him not to make a report. Why? Well, because they weren't planning to do anything about it anyway, and too many reported crimes make them look bad.
I've heard rumors of the same sort of thing in France, too.
"Finally, they uniformly agree that the only way to keep burglars from burgling is to keep them locked up."
- - - - - -
Well, there is another way that's just as sure and certain, plus it involves a permanency that a determinate sentence just can't match.
Palladian: Of course not. Your kind thinks we're not in a position to be lecturing Europe on anything.
"Your kind"? You're a complete idiot, Palladian. If you must know, I most identify with libertarians, so actually I don't agree with much in European governments. Althouse can encourage your trolling of people all she wants, whatever. All you engage in are personal attacks on people who are not lock-step Republican partisans. Which is funny, as you barely know a thing about me, or most of the people you post your tiring and obsessive troll attacks against (you actually seem to live online 24/7).
If anyone follows this blog enough, they know that this blog post by Althouse was mostly intended to court another InstaPundit link, and secondarily to please her right-wing commenters. (I haven't checked InstaPundit, but I'll bet a thousand dollars he instantly linked to this the moment he saw it.)
Are you going to have a protest march against Sarah Palin's Pussy anytime soon? It seems to be unfairly targeting you for being an unappealingly stupid and obnoxious douchebag.
So I say I have a lot of problems with America's (especially my county's) criminal justice system, and give a couple of recent reasons why (the outrageous killing of singer Sean Levert at my county's jail, and the racism rampant in my county's prosecutors office), and you start talking about Sarah Palin's pussy again. Yes, I will be part of the "Ring Around The Justice Center" protest in Cleveland on MLK Day because I can't tolerate what's going on in my justice system at the local level. I'm sure there are problems in Britain's justice system, and many policies they should change. But I have enough problems here where I live to worry about.
Not sure why you bring up Palin, but if Sarah Palin's son, Track (whom you've said you wanna fuck), resided in the inner city of Cleveland and had darker skin, he wouldn't be enlisted in the military right now. He'd be saddled with felonies due to his drug problems.
If you wanna make everything partisan, my county is almost entirely run by Democrats. But don't tell me I should be busy condemning Britain's criminal justice system when the one I have in my county here in the USA is absolutely obscene and mentally ill and no model for anyone. I often wonder if the law schools are proud of all the out of control, un-ethical prosecutors they have produced. Parts of America are a police state and it's done nothing to reduce violent crime, but I know you're quite wealthy, Palladian, and you don't give a shit. Just as you don't give a shit about Bush and Cheney supporting torture in violation of American law and principle.
I have friends, acquaintances, and former clients who have been abused by our criminal justice system, and it's no laughing matter to me. Take your stupid "Sarah Palin's pussy" shit to another thread, please, or just ignore me. But don't ask me to hold up America's criminal justice system as the model Europe should be worshipping, because it's pretty fucked up. If you don't know that, you're sheltered.
LoafingOaf... I vaguely recall a time when you weren't objectionable, but since Sarah Palin's nomination to the Republican ticket, you've basically been a complete and utter asshole. You and your sickening ilk (Oh, you're a "libertarian"! That explains a lot) have been hurling buckets of filth at Palin and her family, and for some completely sick and twisted reason you continue to do it. Take your recent comment as an example, wherein you couldn't resist sliming Track Palin. If anyone has any doubts about what a nasty little fruitcake you are, they can search almost any post Althouse has ever made about Sarah Palin and your droppings will appear therein and will certainly speak for themselves.
And save me your sanctimonious lectures about the downtrodden and discriminated. I never claimed that the American justice system was perfect. But for fuck's sake, I'm going to claim that it's a hell of a lot better than any shithole in Europe or the UK.
And don't tell me how or when to address your comments. I'll write what I want and when I want. As long as you continue to write things I find objectionable or stupid (or both, usually) I'll continue to counter them with my own objectionable, stupid crap when it pleases me.
In short, as long as I'm around, Sarah Palin's Pussy will always be with you.
Ta ta for now!
FWIW, I've been robbed of photographic equipment in 3 countries: France, the US, and Mexico, so it's easy to compare police work in comparable situations.
In France, I had a new Nikon EM stolen about 20 years ago. I was visiting a firm my company was to do business with, and, being in Paris on a nice day, had my favorite small camera with me. I left the camera with the receptionist, and when I came out of the meeting, it was gone. Another visitor had walked off with it. The receptionist was an idiot. The police took 45 minutes to arrive, and their attitude was that I was wasting my time and theirs. Adieu, appareil photo.
In the US I had a Nikon FG stolen (along with other valuables) from my hotel room when I was visiting the Grand Canyon. The police came promptly, were polite if a little curt, carefully took a thorough report and did an investigation of the scene. I actually got a letter from them a few weeks later. Never got my camera or other stuff, but I felt they were actually doing their job.
In Mexico City, it was much more serious. I had a Hasselblad and several lenses stolen from the locked trunk of a friend's Mercedes 240. I couldn't believe it, as the thieves had managed to open the trunk very neatly, w/o noticible damage. The police came very promptly, and made a great show of being at my service, and doing anything we possibly can, Señor, etc. They also gave me to understand that there was this gang in the area, and that if I were willing to pay a ransom, they had contacts and could get my equipment back. I asked if they knew so much about the gang, why they didn't just arrest them. The police said, ever so politely and earnestly, as if taking me into their confidence, that there was little good that could come of that, as the gangs were just too powerful, and the police, to keep public order, had to choose their targets carefully. It all made sense and seemed insane at the same time. In the end, I paid about $300 and got my camera back that day. Whether there was a 'gang,' or whether it was the police, or some combination of the two, I had been ever so smoothly extorted. Á su servicio, Señor.
Having lived in both Europe and the US, I've always had the impression that the US criminal justice system was tough but fair in the end, but that the US was more willing to put people in jail and have them serve longer sentences than is usual in Europe. And, yes, the US racial problems always loomed, sometimes grotesquely, over the enterprise, but I must say, from what I have personally observed, the French are more openly racist with Arabs than the US criminal system with African-Americans. The French are also more overtly brutal in general, as anyone who has hung around the Palais de Justice and Conciergerie and watched the treatment of prisoners can tell you.
However we might compare criminal justice systems, I do want to agree with Loafing Oaf about Palladian. I've lurked and occasionally commented on this blog for years, and one thing that I've never understood is Althouse's promotion and coddling of this unpleasant character. Indeed, his comments all seem to be either foulmouthed promotion of his rather right-wing (as opposed to conservative) views, or personal attacks on those whose substance or even tone he disapproves of. He is a seeming virtuoso of vituperation, having a large supply of obviously pre-made insults at the ready. Unfortunately, his venom frequently has nothing to do with either what the person had written or the topic at hand.
In the past, I had been a little preoccupied with trolls on this blog, as it seemed potentially such a wonderful place for intelligent conversation, if only the Luckyoldsons would go away. Unfortunately, it's slowly dawned on me that Althouse comes pre-trolled, and a number of her regulars, Palladian first and foremost, serve primarily to keep the pot boiling.
Palladian and Titus, two of the most regularly grotesque characters you'll find on the blogosphere, are the gargoyles on either side of this edifice. As with gargoyles in general, it's usually not a good idea to get anywhere near them.
I just have, and I'm sure you all will be treated presently to more of the classic Palladian stream of invective, already begun so early on this Sunday morning, like so much water off the snout of a bloated gnome.
Inspektor Friedrich, you are entirely mistaken about Palladian.
His comments are always intelligent and funny. He has a rapier wit and it is clear he does not suffer fools gladly. He has a good bullshit detector, and an enviable memory. Like Revenant, he has a keen and logical mind; both seem to enjoy bopping you over the head with your own mistakes.
Denizens of the left are used to adouble standard, hurling invectives and yet crying mommy when the same is done to them.
Loafing Oaf is in this post appearing to be entirely reasonable, but his past is littered with trolling, especially about Palin. Palladian likes to remind him of it. Anti-trolling is not trolling, it's like pulling weeds or scraping dogshit off your shoes.
Only dandelions and dung object.
it is funny to see Americans jumping all over Europeans and criticizing the way they handle crime when we handle it 'the American way' and get a worse result.
Um, England has a higher rate of property crime and home invasion than we do.
We just have a higher murder rate -- but most of THAT is criminals shooting each other. Good riddance.
BTW, Inspektor, your comments are always good to read.
You've just got your troll sensors capturing both shit and shinola, which is an error.
Revenant says: "Um, England has a higher rate of property crime and home invasion than we do." It's my understanding that with the exception of murder, overall violent crime such as armed robbery and rape is significantly higher in Britain.
Nice Mr. Howes - you keep your leftist bona fides by not owning a gun, but depend upon the readiness of your neighbors to scare potential burglars.
Given the rate at which New Hampster is becoming a liberal cesspool, soon none of your fellow travellers will have guns. Be a man, step up, protect yourself. Being a weenie only gets you so far in life.
Dave:
"They uniformly agree on a couple of things. One, only three things make a burglar quit burgling -- being in jail, dying, or becoming a fence. ...
Finally, they uniformly agree that the only way to keep burglars from burgling is to keep them locked up."
There IS another way, and your students who are police are well aware of what it is.
Apparently they can't bring themselves to say that killing burglars will certainly keep them from burgling.
First of all, it's Dr. Howes, I didn't spend 7 years at evil Chemistry school to be called Mister. (Austin Powers reference.)
Second, you are right that I rely on the deterrent effect of my well armed neighbors. I don't keep guns in the house because they are low on the priority pyramid of things I could spend money on, not because I have some political distain for them, far from it.
There's a big sign on the Mass. Turnpike just under Fenway Park which insults New Hampshire's liberal gun laws, and it nauseates me every time I see it with its smugness and willful ignorance. But that's Mass. for you. I hope it won't be what NH becomes.
LoafingOaf said..."If anyone follows this blog enough, they know that this blog post by Althouse was mostly intended to court another InstaPundit link..."
There are some things Althouse does not even have to try to do.
Inspektor Friedrich said..."In France, I had a new Nikon EM stolen... "
Wow. I got robbed in Rome, by a gang of children. 2 of them were caught by citizens on the scene, and the police took them into a room where the children cried and the police let them go and told me they're children. Meanwhile a cop came in with a stack of wallets, including mine. The money had been removed, but why did the cop have all the wallets?
"I've lurked and occasionally commented on this blog for years, and one thing that I've never understood is Althouse's promotion and coddling of this unpleasant character.... He is a seeming virtuoso of vituperation, having a large supply of obviously pre-made insults at the ready."
Yes, it's biting humor. I let the lefties do it too. The reason you remember Palladian is that he does it so well.
"Palladian and Titus, two of the most regularly grotesque characters you'll find on the blogosphere, are the gargoyles on either side of this edifice. As with gargoyles in general, it's usually not a good idea to get anywhere near them."
You may not know it, but the gargoyle is the UW Law School mascot. Anyway, I like the free speech around here, and people who write well and are interesting get to push the envelope. Boring people are treated harshly.
Pogo said..."His comments are always intelligent and funny. He has a rapier wit and it is clear he does not suffer fools gladly. He has a good bullshit detector, and an enviable memory. Like Revenant, he has a keen and logical mind; both seem to enjoy bopping you over the head with your own mistakes."
Agreed.
It is always interesting to hear other commenters opine about which of their fellows piss them off. I am sure I piss off a whole legion of people who post or lurk here. So I can understand how Palladian’s acerbic commentary is not your cup of tea. Or how Titus might not be your cup of pee. There are several people who I skip over whenever they post just as I am sure many of you do to me. I want to thank the professor for providing an open forum for the free exchange of ideas no matter how profound or juvenile they may be.
However Loafing Oaf is in my view a special case. He is one of a small group of commenters who I personally feel has forfeited any measure of forbearance by decent people who have any respect for themselves. Along with such other denizen of the lower depths such as Andrew Sullivan, Luckyoldson, and UWS guy in the matter of Sarah Palin they went far beyond the bounds of reasonable opposition and partisan politics that they deserve no quarter. The continual personal attacks on the family of Governor Palin indicate that there really is something wrong with them. They have passed beyond the bounds of malice into what I would term “evil.” I scorn and shun them and join fully in the remarks of the honorable homosexual from Williamsburg.
I yield the remainder of time to the Chair.
Back when I lived in a lovely 4 by 5 block area of Baltimore surrounded by ghetto, I drove monthly with a police officer on a Citizens on Patrol in the neighborhood. From conversations during this incredibly tedious task, I gathered that insurance statistics prioritized the Baltimore Police interest in burglaries. Not so much reducing burglaries per 1000 but $ per burglary. Makes sense. Also I suspect it is what drives quicker response in nicer neighborhoods.
Who votes for these people?
A. Friend,
"Who votes for these people?"
I think maybe all the self-reliant Brits have already emigrated to the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc., or something.
Palladian: W'burg? Where? I am 3 blks from the Bedford L. Not that I want a date, no offense ;>, but perhaps we could hoist a couple sometime.
This Lord Chief Justice is just trying to fix the problems created by his predecessor who, in an effort to reduce the prison population, pushed to have those convicted of all but the most heinous crimes sentenced to community service.
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