Althouse: "In seeking to protect our children from bullying and aggression, we risk depriving them of a most remarkable form of social exchange."

December 7, 2008

"In seeking to protect our children from bullying and aggression, we risk depriving them of a most remarkable form of social exchange."

"In teasing, we learn to use our voices, bodies and faces, and to read those of others — the raw materials of emotional intelligence and the moral imagination. We learn the wisdom of laughing at ourselves, and not taking the self too seriously. We learn boundaries between danger and safety, right and wrong, friend and foe, male and female, what is serious and what is not. We transform the many conflicts of social living into entertaining dramas. No kidding."

Amen.

94 comments:

Anonymous said...: Ann,
Thank you for the explanation in the MTP thread about why you have avoided criticism of Bush. Though I obviously feel different about the man, I appreciate your explanation and can acknowledge that it makes a certain kind of sense.

BTW, I was posting under the user name "Twin" below.

Cheers.; 12/7/08, 6:58 PM
Palladian said...: "BTW, I was posting under the user name "Twin" below."

Is he your evil twin? Wait, what do you call the twin of someone who is already evil?

Anyway, I'm glad teasing is OK now. I'd be lost without it.; 12/7/08, 7:09 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: I wouldn't worry too much. I believe there is as much of this remarkable form of social exchange going on as there ever was, the efforts of America's school administrators and marriage counselors notwithstanding.; 12/7/08, 7:15 PM
Meade said...: In a surprise attack, one girl nearly dropped a dead crab down a boy’s pants.

A dead crab, one might add, that tasted exactly like Whizzo Butter.; 12/7/08, 7:28 PM
Anonymous said...: ROFL! Here's that old Whizzo Butter ad!; 12/7/08, 7:40 PM
paul a'barge said...: Bullshit.

Childhood teasing is nothing less than Lord of the Flies cruelty.

We're not talking about a Dad pushing his kids buttons, teaching him humor, irony and the insight that should lead to not taking himself so seriously.

We're talking about one child's attempt to damage another child for the rest of that child's life.

As soon as we stop with this romancing the barbarism nonsense we can move a bit closer to teaching children Christian kindness, fairness and justice instead of destroying the self worth of others.; 12/7/08, 7:42 PM
Jennifer said...: We're talking about one child's attempt to damage another child for the rest of that child's life.

You might be talking about that, but I doubt the rest of us are inclined to believe young children actually set out to achieve anything quite that ridiculous.; 12/7/08, 7:46 PM
Joe said...: Childhood teasing is nothing less than Lord of the Flies cruelty.

Teasing is akin to murder? Give me a fucking break.

Teasing crosses a wide spectrum; the point is that making claims exactly as you make this is ultimately destructive since it doesn't prepare a child for adulthood.

My youngest brother-in-law was shielded from everything and has turned out to be a complete, nearly useless, wimp. Nothing in Christianity says you have to lay back and take it.; 12/7/08, 7:48 PM
George M. Spencer said...: Oh, anti-bullying programs....don't get me started.

I've got a gang of kids, and I think that's all they teach in elementary and middle school. My kids are always bringing home multi-colored hand-outs about it. God knows how much time and money is wasted on this brainwashing.

And the rules! Children on the playground are forbidden from throwing those inflatable red rubber balls at/with another child....unless they bounce it. (Like a basketball bounce pass.) You see...a child hit another child with a ball. Parents of the wounded lad threatened to sue, so now all the playground monitors [a gaggle of obsessed germ-phobic mommies] also tote walkie-talkies so they can call in emergency helicopter transport for scraped knees. All the parents got a two page lawlerly letter from the principal about this. Our tax dollars.

I don't make up this stuff, folks.

There's also some connection between anti-bullying programs and protecting gay 3rd graders....; 12/7/08, 7:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Does this mean we are now free to mock and ridicule each other openly in here?; 12/7/08, 8:01 PM
janemariemd said...: I wonder of some of the absence is also due to smaller families. Many kids don't have siblings these days--those home-grown bullying/teasers that can teach a kid how to survive, and the difference between playfulness and hatefulness.; 12/7/08, 8:11 PM
Meade said...: Windbag said...
"Does this mean we are now free to mock and ridicule each other openly in here?"

Yes, Windbag, you are free.

Of course if we fail to find the humor in your ridiculing and mockery, you will be forced to walk around school all day tomorrow in nothing but your underpants.; 12/7/08, 8:21 PM
Anonymous said...: ...you will be forced to walk around school all day tomorrow in nothing but your underpants.

...and you will openly mock and ridicule me.; 12/7/08, 8:28 PM
save_the_rustbelt said...: The world has changed a great deal since I was young; there were very clear boundaries and a community consensus on what was proper and what went over the line.

The boundaries have been blown up and there is no community consensus. Some children barely have parents, other have parents who think thuggery is way ok.

Which is why my grandchildren start Tae Kwon Do at age 5.

Kids can be badly beaten for their lunch money.

(Even worse than anti-bullying is the nonsense my kids were taught - don't use violence to defend yourself - talk you way out of trouble, or run, and if that doesn't work take a beating until an adult intervenes. Bull); 12/7/08, 8:31 PM
Newtons Bit said...: There's a big difference between good-natured ribbing and hateful putting down. And I can speak from a good amount of experience in knowing the difference. I was scrawny and weak in elementary and middle school. I wasn't teased, I was put down. I was the joke. It wasn't good natured ribbing by friends. It hurt.

In highschool I joined JROTC. I bulked up. I wasn't teased anymore much because I had the ability to fight back. Now I'm a rock climber and have an athletic body*. That gives me all the confidence I need to say that I will punch any adult in the mouth who thinks what kids do to the "omega" of a group is anything less than cruelty and is acceptable. And then I'll tell them I'm just teasing. It'll probably hurt less than the hell a lot of kids go through.

*Note: I get ribbed by my friends and co-workers. It's not the same. I know.; 12/7/08, 8:50 PM
wgh said...: Honest, I wasn't bullying Timmy... I was just teasing...; 12/7/08, 8:52 PM
Zachary Sire said...: Teasing is a necessary evil and I'm glad to have been a victim of it. How else would I would endure the vicious attacks from Althouse commenters?

But endorsing it, as the linked text does? That's not necessary. Just let it happen naturally and stop talking about it.; 12/7/08, 8:59 PM
Donna B. said...: This akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Of course there is cruelty that some attempt to disguise as teasing. But that's not really teasing, is it?

It's the confusion of what's acceptable and helpful with what is hurtful and harmful.

If children are not allowed to tease and learn the difference, what do we gain?

One thing that I think the extreme right and extreme left have in common is an inability to tease and not take themselves too seriously.

Must we continue to add numbers of inadequately social humans to their numbers?

Loving teasing is a wonderful thing. I feel sorry for those who have never experienced it.; 12/7/08, 9:03 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: As others have pointed out, there's teasing and there's really malevolent teasing. I'm sure there are plenty of wimps who never had to face anyone down, but I know that there are also plenty of adults with disordered personalities who endured vicious teasing in their later school years. (I'm of the opinion that pretty much any teasing in early elementary school is something that a kid will get over, but I still don't endorse the idea that anything goes.)

As for the anti-bullying curriculum some have mentioned, I'm shocked that anyone would tell a kid not to fight back when someone is bullying him. That's awful advice. I was teased and bullied plenty prior to puberty but never for long by the same person. If you want a bully to leave you alone, you absolutely must stand up for yourself. All children should be taught that.; 12/7/08, 9:19 PM
Zachary Sire said...: Names I was called in elementary school and junior high:

Fag
Faggot
Gaywad
Pussy
Loser
Nerd
Bitch
Fairy
Gaylord
Loner
Fudgepacker
Girl
Cocksucker

Keep in mind that I was not a feminine child nor did I exhibit any homosexual tendencies. I was however somewhat awkward and reclusive, and words like "faggot" are used to describe such behavior, whether or not you're actually a gay child.

Hey, I guess all the kids were trying to tell me something! But I had no idea they were on to anything until I was in high school. And by that time, most of them had grown out of teasing me.

It hurt to be teased when I was young for the mere fact that teasing
hurts. Had I known that they were teasing me about something I actually was it probably would have hurt more. Once I came out, no one cared. Bizarre.; 12/7/08, 9:40 PM
Meade said...: Palladian still calls you all those things, Zack. I thought it was just some queer sort of male-bonding terms of endearment ritual.; 12/7/08, 9:53 PM
Jennifer said...: Of course there is a difference between playful teasing and outright bullying and aggression. Kids can be cruel, though.

I have no recollection of being teased through any of my schooling though I'm sure it happened. I guess it made very little impact. I'm certain I was never bullied.

I do have a recollection of doing some teasing but this will sound entirely made up. I shit you not, true story. My best friend and I used to tease a slightly younger girl in our ballet class incessantly. I vaguely recall accusing her of liking a fat redheaded child named Fritz. I also vaguely recall her conferring with her older sister and then informing us "I'm ignoring you." Fast forward eight years and I moved from Hawaii to a random little smallish town in Oregon. Walking down the halls of my brand new high school, I almost died when I recognized this girl. Turned out that the exact same year I moved there, her father accepted a visiting professorship at the local university. So, she was now still attending the same high school as me, just an ocean away. I was certain that was some sort of karmic payback. But, it turned out that she held no grudge and was just happy to see a familiar face. We became the best of friends and 15 years later are still close.

Teasing clearly does not cripple everyone for life.; 12/7/08, 9:56 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: My best friend and I used to tease a slightly younger girl in our ballet class incessantly. I vaguely recall accusing her of liking a fat redheaded child named Fritz. I also vaguely recall her conferring with her older sister and then informing us "I'm ignoring you."

That's hilarious. No, I don't think anyone would be scarred over that. Great story.; 12/7/08, 9:58 PM
Meade said...: "and then informing us "I'm ignoring you."

Girls can be so unbelievably cruel.

Boys, we just slug each other and if no one rats on the other, boom - pals for life.; 12/7/08, 10:12 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Do you guys know what I did to get in here?
I taped Larry Lester's buns together. Yeah, you know him? Well then, you know how hairy he is, right? Well, when they pulled the tape off, most of his hair came off and some skin too. And the bizarre thing is, is that I did it for my old man. I tortured this poor kid because I wanted him to think I was cool.

http://tinyurl.com/6jnvdr; 12/7/08, 10:16 PM
Meade said...: Plus, we like having scars cause chicks dig guys with scars.; 12/7/08, 10:16 PM
Anonymous said...: The world has changed a great deal since I was young

No, old dude, it hasn't. You've just gotten old.

These kids today. What's the matter with them? Why can't they be like we were?; 12/7/08, 10:27 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/7/08, 10:29 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: The best way to deal with a bully is to confront him/her even if you get your ass kicked (wait this word got me in trouble with a bully here - let me look it up) ok.

What ends up happening is you become friends with the bully.

It was great in the end, its a strange way to become friends but it worked for me.; 12/7/08, 10:33 PM
David said...: "Kids can be cruel, though."

So can adults. That's the point. Life is rough and tumble, and there aren't any playground monitors there to protect you when you grow up.; 12/7/08, 10:39 PM
John Burgess said...: I was bullied up until the fourth grade. My older brother told me the next time X or Y picked on me, I should simply fly into whichever's face, swing away, and if I got him down, don't stop until the third time he cried 'uncle'.

I had to do that once with X and once with Y. End of bullying.

I sure learned a lot from that experience, as, I'm sure, did X & Y.; 12/7/08, 10:43 PM
jayne_cobb said...: I suppose I'm in the camp which considers teasing to be a necessary evil. It not only teaches you how to deal with jerks but it also teaches you how to laugh at yourself when one of your friends short drops you.

On a related note I've also always felt that kids need to get the shit kicked out of them at least once.

Now I don't mean they need to be broken and bleeding; I just think getting body checked when you're not looking during gym is great learning experience.; 12/7/08, 10:46 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Boys, we just slug each other and if no one rats on the other, boom - pals for life.

When I was teased in elementary school, it was almost entirely by boys and not the having a crush on a girl sort of teasing. None of us became pals for life, probably because I was a girl not another boy, but it's certainly true that all it takes with boys is a bit of a fight. Then everyone is good to go and gets along just fine.

Never worked that way with girls. Then again, I don't think I ever tried hitting a girl either.; 12/7/08, 10:52 PM
Anonymous said...: I agree that all kids should get their asses kicked at least once. And the younger, the better. Elementary school kids aren't likely to seriously hurt each other in the first place, and they recover quickly.; 12/7/08, 10:53 PM
Darcy said...: Yes, I think the trend is definitely over-protective. I think the kids are getting around it, though. The teasing goes on, and so does the bullying.

My kid had to deal with a bully, too. The school relies on kids reporting the bullying, and he begged me not to go to the school.
In the end, he took care of it, just like John Burgess did.

I have to admit though, I was pretty scared. This kid was twice his size, and I really did think he was going to get hurt. I didn't think he'd fight him, and I never told him to. But I did tell him that if he had to defend himself I would be on his side with the school.; 12/7/08, 10:56 PM
jayne_cobb said...: This is why God invented dodgeball.; 12/7/08, 10:58 PM
Anonymous said...: As I hit Publish, it occurred to me that I am speaking thoroughly as a boy. It's different for girls. My blog-crush Freeman Hunt beat me to the punch.

A couple vignettes. Once, in first grade, I got in a fight. I won. I was the most popular kid at school that day. Sixth graders were telling me I was great. And the next week, the poor kid I beat up invited me to his birthday party. I went, and got him a gift.

In fifth grade, I moved to a different school. At a high school football game (small town; we all went), this kid I never met challenged me to a fight. Actually, all these kids kept coming up to me and told me he wanted to fight me. We finally fought. I punched him once and bloodied his nose. Much later, in college, I saw him working at a restaurant. He was flamingly gay. It all sort of came together for me then.; 12/7/08, 10:58 PM
Palladian said...: "Much later, in college, I saw him working at a restaurant. He was flamingly gay. It all sort of came together for me then."

You punched the straight out of him?; 12/7/08, 11:05 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: It's different for girls.

I know that many would disagree with me, but I think the cruelty of girl teasing is overplayed. It's almost always highly ignorable.; 12/7/08, 11:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Maybe, Palladian. It was a good punch.

This poor kid was always getting in fights and always losing. My sense was that he was having a hard time as a 10-year-old dealing with his attraction toward boys. I hope he's happy now.

I feel compelled to mention that I am 3-1 as a fighter and haven't been in one since my loss, in ninth grade.; 12/7/08, 11:07 PM
Chip Ahoy said...: I had a dream about this very thing the other night. It was most disturbing. Wanna hear it? OK. Goes a little something like this:

I'm at a grocery store and have to go to the bathroom real badly. When I get in there, there's a big crowd waiting to go. I notice the stalls don't have doors. This was the disturbing part. But oddly, the doorless stalls shrank incrementally. That was weird. Luckily, when it was my turn I got the largest stall. I wasn't done when this guy comes along and hangs his jacket on a nail indicating he was marking that stall (my stall) as his. For some reason this angered me, this marking his territory like that and ignoring my presence or my present temporary ownership. I tossed his jacket, which didn't make sense because it worked well as an ersatz door. Anyway, when he was done he attacked me for tossing his jacket. He ran up at me aggressively and I held firm. We bumped our chests ridiculously as males do. Because he had momentum and I was standing, my bump wasn't all that great and the impact bounced me back. I thought in that moment, "I'll have to use leverage here to take him down. This is where my advantage in height will work in my favor. I took him down easily. I pinned him but then didn't know how to follow up, so I berated him. He just lay there taking it, no struggling at all, as if he just gave up. It was all too easy, but I honestly didn't have much of a point to make beyond my not caring for his hanging his jacket on the stall I was using. I woke up feeling incredibly stupid.; 12/8/08, 12:03 AM
Palladian said...: "This poor kid was always getting in fights and always losing. My sense was that he was having a hard time as a 10-year-old dealing with his attraction toward boys. I hope he's happy now."

He figured out that he really wanted to punch with a different appendage.; 12/8/08, 12:13 AM
Joan said...: It helps a lot to have more than two kids in the family, because then you cover all the possible teasing dynamics: one-on-one, groups, teasing up (older), teasing down (younger) -- which can easily morph into bullying -- etc. As parents, my husband and I tease our kids by saying the exact opposite of what we mean sometimes. It's not sarcasm, it's seeing if they're paying attention. Of course we have to be careful with that sort of thing because now they're old enough and have caught on, and you can easily paint yourself into a corner with that sort of teasing.

I deal with a lot of teasing at school -- as a sub, I see it happening in every grade level, and I handle it pretty consistently no matter the age level: if you don't like how someone is treating you, tell them. You don't have spend time with someone that's making you feel bad. If they're just teasing as a friend, they'll apologize. if they're being mean, they'll have a hard time apologizing, and you'll have your answer right there.

As for bullies, the above tactic works to nip them in the bud, but if it escalates to violence, I've told my kids repeatedly (and they learn the same thing in karate) that they should never let anyone hit them. Never. They know how to block slaps, punches, kicks, you name it. We practice. They know if someone comes at them swinging, they're perfectly justified in pushing them away, and I'll be 100% behind them.

When I was in third grade, the class bully was a tough girl. She called out girl after girl in our class to fight after school, and she always won. She finally called me out, which was weird, since I was this mousy little bookworm thing, and beating me up couldn't possibly give her much satisfaction. She waited for me after school, but I didn't stop, and for some bizarre reason, she never stepped in front of me to get me to fight her. She followed me all the way home, swinging her bookbag at me and being a total asshole. I think I turned around once after a particularly hard thump with the bookbag, but then I turned back around and kept walking home. I remember being terrified the entire time, but she never hurt me -- the last fight she'd been in, she'd given Maureen a bloody nose. I wonder if you can imagine this scene of a gaggle of 4th-grade Catholic school girls in their green plaid uniforms, white blouses, and green knee socks, pestering a skinny, knobby-kneed girl all the way home? Those three blocks seemed infinite. I remember I made it home OK but I don't know if I even told anyone about it, and I don't know if the bully was ever reprimanded or not. I vaguely recall that I had taken the fun out of it for her, and I earned a weird sort of respect because even though I didn't fight, I didn't just let her beat me up, either.

No lie: the next year, circumstances transpired such that we became best friends.; 12/8/08, 1:05 AM
Methadras said...: paul a'barge said...

We're talking about one child's attempt to damage another child for the rest of that child's life.

And yet here we are 3 million years and over 100 billion humanoids later with currently 6 billion people who would disagree with your assessment as to what constitutes childhood damage? I can think of a lot worse things in life that can damage another child for life.

As soon as we stop with this romancing the barbarism nonsense we can move a bit closer to teaching children Christian kindness, fairness and justice instead of destroying the self worth of others.

Christianity is about securing ones soul through the belief in Christ as your lord and savior for absorbing the worlds and your sins as one of the conditions by which you get into heave. Not your romanticized belief that Christian kindness, fairness, and justice are somehow more worthy than what Christ did for you. Good works don't supplant His sacrifice and worrying about a child's self-esteem in the face of being teased or dare we say bullied. If you don't want a child or your child to be teased or bullied, then teach them how not to be. If they still are, then teach them how to counteract it by either telling you, a teacher, or some other authority figure and if all else fails maybe you can show them how a good kick to the nuts, the shins, or a left cross and a right hook can fix that problem fairly quickly.; 12/8/08, 1:12 AM
Bender R said...: Clearly the answer is to punch the bully or teaser in the face. That's the only way you will get respect.

Once upon a time the popular culture even taught that (Andy Taylor telling Opie to fight the bully, Ralphie laying into the bully in The Christmas Story). Even in Catholic school that was the answer (Ingrid Bergman teaching the kid to fight in The Bells of St. Mary's).; 12/8/08, 1:38 AM
Bender R said...: if all else fails maybe you can show them how a good kick to the nuts

Today's culture, of course, abhors the fight-back-against-the-bully stategy (except for Hank Hill, I tell you what, but even then Bobby's idea of fighting back was to do the above-mentioned kick).; 12/8/08, 1:41 AM
reader_iam said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/8/08, 2:02 AM
reader_iam said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/8/08, 2:13 AM
Kirk Parker said...: "Boys, we just slug each other and if no one rats on the other, boom - pals for life."

Sure, that's the storybook ending, but even w/o that, you at least usually get mutual respect. The one guy who bullied me in Jr High, I certainly would not have wanted to be pals for life with (totally apart from the bullying aspect.)

Seven,

"My blog-crush Freeman Hunt..."

Stand in line, buddy, stand in line. I expect I'm quite far from the first myself. :-); 12/8/08, 3:09 AM
Mortimer Brezny said...: I was stalked by a really fat and not very intelligent girl in college. She lied about me, making my tolerance of her seem like reciprocation, ruined more than one of my actual relationships, and tricked my friends into believing I was interested, which was incredibly damaging to my self-esteem. To have everyone believe that you are ashamed to admit your secret liaison with a disgusting creature that is stalking you and slandering you is a nightmare. To have them attempt to convince you that you are mistaken about your dislike of that person and attack your self-concept to accomplish that goal is too a nightmare. Once it became clear that this delusional stalker had manipulated all my friends and acquaintances into a delusional mob, the unwitting idiots backed out of the situation by claiming they had just been teasing and weren't responsible for any of the harm they had caused. For awhile I had flashbacks, because I had been stalked. You may simply call it teasing if you like, but what appears to be teasing may in fact be torture because a psychotic stalker is in your midst, egging on the "teasing."; 12/8/08, 4:08 AM
Einstein's Brain said...: I do think that kids do need to learn to work out some social situations for themselves. If adults are always playing the referee the children will never learn to be socially smart.
I do think that teasing does hurt a lot. I was teased, called a geek/nerd/ and such (I'm proud of those terms now). I was also called "Shrimp".
I do think that there just needs to be a balance, when adults should intervene and when they should not bother.; 12/8/08, 5:15 AM
Anonymous said...: Zachary Paul Sire said...Teasing is a necessary evil and I'm glad to have been a victim of it. How else would I would endure the vicious attacks from Althouse commenters?

Don't confuse teasing with genuine hatred.; 12/8/08, 5:56 AM
Anonymous said...: The refined art of teasing is the roast.

Here's Norm MacDonald roasting Bob Saget and doing a great job roasting the roast format and Saget's godawful commenting style on America's Funniest Home Videos.; 12/8/08, 6:10 AM
Steven said...: Nothing in Christianity says you have to lay back and take it.

Well, you know, except the bit where Jesus says "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

And the next sentence, "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also."

Followed by "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two."

And then there's the example of the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus decided to just let the Romans kill him. And then not only stopped his followers from defending his life, but actually healed the people coming to take him away to die.

So, er, yeah, there's nothing in Christianity that says you have to lay back and take it, except, well, the commands and the example of Christ Himself.; 12/8/08, 6:15 AM
Deb said...: I do believe there's a culture of overprotectionism in schools these days. My daughter was teased and chase by an obnoxious little boy in kindergarten. I encouraged her to punch his lights out. I'm sure if she had, she would have been the one to be punished, but still, it would have empowered her! As it turned out it wasn't necessary; her father had a friendly word with his father. Yet, she is my most self-reliant child. I like to think it's because I always gave her permission to defend herself.

As a band nerd, and somewhat overweight teenager, I was called "Tank" throughout high school. I thought it was a compliment.; 12/8/08, 6:19 AM
blake said...: The problem is "zero tolerance" which is shorthand for "we want to not have responsibility (especially legal) and we also don't want to have to think or use judgment."

There are different kinds of teasing. It can be friendly, it can be malicious, and it can be psychotic. Enjoy the first, ignore or confront the second, circle the wagons for the last.

I do think it's interesting that in school (traditionally) lawlessness was the rule of the playground. What happened to "civilizing the children?"

If enduring teasing is something that has value, why not teach it formally?; 12/8/08, 6:44 AM
KCFleming said...: Mixed feelings.

I was both teased and teaser. I fought back and was left alone.

When I was in my twenties I apologized to a girl I had teased in high school. She grew up into a perfectly lovely person; of course, she was lovely in high school, too, but I was an asshole. There was one girl I teased that I think I'll go to hell for. She died suddenly in her 30s and I was ashamed all over again.

My 3rd grade son was being beat up by an 8th grade boy. I sent my other son, a freshman in high school, over to the grade school. The bully and he had a chat. He told him Next year, you'll be a freshman, and I'll be a sophomore. If you don't stop messing with my brother, I'm going to fuck you up every day next year. And my friends will help." Problem solved.

My daughter got bullied by a boy in first grade. The teachers were then promoting some sort of DIY student "conflict resolution", which meant that victims got punished if they fought back, and had to "negotiate" (by themselves) using terms only a moron could discuss ("I feel bad when you tease me" ....no shit, girl, that's the point).

Over my wife's objections, I went to school and took this young boy aside and said that if I ever hear from my daughter again that he was bothering her, I would find him, and beat him until he bled from every hole in his body. Problem solved.

I agree kids need to be taught the best responses. Some parent s are total wimps though, and tell their kids to be wimps. And teachers need to start acting like adults again, and punishing bullies.; 12/8/08, 6:54 AM
Jennifer said...: I know that many would disagree with me, but I think the cruelty of girl teasing is overplayed. It's almost always highly ignorable.

I completely agree. Besides, it's cyclical. I know in my circle of girlfriends in high school, there was always someone a little on the outs. But, it was never the same person for long. Once the circle expanded and went co-ed, things got a lot less catty. We did not, however, start punching each other when we got angry. So, I'm not sure what the addition of the boys changed. Maybe we just grew up a little.; 12/8/08, 7:33 AM
wgh said...: These days I would think threatening someone's child with a beating of blood-from-every-orifice magnitude is one of the quicker ways to get sued.

In any event, little Johhny wasn't bullying, he was teasing.; 12/8/08, 7:35 AM
MadisonMan said...: Teasing prepares you for bosses.

So I'm told. My own bosses are wonderful.; 12/8/08, 7:50 AM
save_the_rustbelt said...: "No, old dude, it hasn't. You've just gotten old."

Bull. You are clueless.; 12/8/08, 7:51 AM
rhhardin said...: Being teased and bullied gives you immunity to assholes later in life. Which, in the case of bosses, leaves you free to participate in what the company claims to offer rather than in what the boss is trying to change it to. Which is to say, in what it was that interested you in the first place.

So you wind up the only person in the organization having a good time.; 12/8/08, 7:53 AM
KCFleming said...: "These days I would think threatening someone's child with a beating of blood-from-every-orifice magnitude is one of the quicker ways to get sued."

It might.
It didn't.

Plausible deniability.
Don't be such a wimp.

Hah!; 12/8/08, 8:03 AM
Darcy said...: LOL, rhhardin. I've been there! A matter of perspective. ;-)

I was called "Tank" throughout high school. I thought it was a compliment.

Hmm...making me rethink the "Long Legs McFuzz" thing. Not that I was ever called that! Ahem. :); 12/8/08, 8:13 AM
wgh said...: Plausible deniability.
Don't be such a wimp.

But when the kid keeps harrassing your daughter, how plausibly can you deny the subsequent assault you promise to perpetrate? After all, not following through with your threat would be, you know, kinda wimpy....; 12/8/08, 8:40 AM
Darcy said...: I'm sure Pogo would bring along a couple of bandaids, wgh.; 12/8/08, 8:50 AM
Richard Fagin said...: I'm all for a little violence every now and then, but what's a parent supposed to do with schools having zero-tolerance policies? Around here, any kids fighting on school property, irrespective of fault, get sent to an "alternative learning center", which is what used to be called reform school. No ifs ands or buts about it. You take otherwise reasonably normal kids and ship 'em off for a few weeks to class with some real doozies: drug dealers, felons, you name it. It's like sending pot users off to prison.

No wonder Limbaugh refers to them as the public "screwels."; 12/8/08, 8:53 AM
Paddy O said...: Christianity is about securing ones soul through the belief in Christ as your lord and savior for absorbing the worlds and your sins as one of the conditions by which you get into heave. Not your romanticized belief that Christian kindness, fairness, and justice are somehow more worthy than what Christ did for you.

Are you reading the Roman Road version of the New Testament, the version that cuts out all the rest of the 'non-heaven-securing' stuff? Seems like a great, great deal of the New Testament, and thus Christianity, talks about how we interact with others in right and wrong ways. There's, for example, that little story about the good Samaritan and the bit about loving others as ourselves. Key parts, you know.

Christianity, at its very heart, is both about horizontal and vertical relationships, not the romanticized limitation of it that only insists on individualized soul saving.; 12/8/08, 8:56 AM
MadisonMan said...: but what's a parent supposed to do with schools having zero-tolerance policies?

You point out long and loud to Administrators and the School Board that zero tolerance is zero thought.; 12/8/08, 8:57 AM
wgh said...: I'm sure Pogo would bring along a couple of bandaids

I would hope so, that's a lotta holes....; 12/8/08, 9:04 AM
KCFleming said...: "After all, not following through with your threat would be, you know, kinda wimpy...."

Fear is a funny thing.
Didn't need to follow though. That's the point of a good threat. Fear does the rest.

What's your great answer? Teachers won't intervene. My kids in trouble for fighting back, and she was small and it didn't work. What then? Screw that. You can live in fear or not. I choose not to.

I hate to tell you this, wgh, but the world is hard and full of bastards. And the authorities have abdicated the schools to the kids because of lawsuits. Well I say screw 'em.; 12/8/08, 9:11 AM
TitusTakesABowWowWow said...: I was bullied as a child and it hurt and I am damaged.

I have scars to prove it.

Hold me please. Love me. Respect me. I act out my hurt in unhealthy ways. I was rejected as a child so in order to gain acceptance I go to the gym religiously and hope for affirmation through sex.

Wow, I feel cleansed.

thank you for listening.; 12/8/08, 9:22 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I was teased a lot in elementary school. We moved quite a bit because of my parent's jobs and my brother and I were always the new kids in school who are the prime targets for teasing.

In 2nd grade I went to school in Ann Arbor, Houston, Walla Walla,and Anaheim. Four schools in one school year. We finally settled down in one place when I was in the 4th grade. I learned that there was no point in getting worked up about teasing, because those people would be long gone in a short while.

I also learned that there is no point in developing deep friendships with people because those don't last either: but that your family will always be there and that you can depend on them. Probably not a really great lesson but explains why I don't need to have close friends. Lots of acquaintances, but no close friends, especially girlfriends.

Teasing and coping with it makes you what you are. I bet that Newton would not have joined JROTC or gotten as strong physically or mentally as he seems to be without the teasing.; 12/8/08, 9:24 AM
TitusTakesABowWowWow said...: I was beat up in physical education.

I had to go to a child shrink in order to get out phy ed with the boys.

My options were to take gym with the girls or the mentally challenged.

I chose the mentally challenged.

So on the soccer field were the girls in one corner, the boys in another and the mentally challenged and myself in the other corner.

Embrace me now. Feel my pain. Walk with me through the light. Hug me.

thank you.; 12/8/08, 9:25 AM
TitusTakesABowWowWow said...: I am having grape juice right now.

Grape juice tastes good.

Yum, grape juice.

Last time I was home one of the kids that bullied me was pumping my gas. He actually wanted to have a conversation with me. I was nice and all and have no hard feelings but I certainly didn't want to have a conversation with him. He is really fat now and that is redeeming. He was actually hot in high school. Not anymore.; 12/8/08, 9:29 AM
TitusTakesABowWowWow said...: On Saturday nights my parents would go bowling and the gets would come to our house and knock on all my windows and pretend to open the doors. I was like 14-15.

I would hide under the couch scared.
The next morning Fag was written on soap on the windows and driveway.

Touch me. Be kind to me. Help me. Please care.; 12/8/08, 9:33 AM
wgh said...: What's your great answer?

Not sure I have one, although I have a similar story. My daughter was in second grade at a school that congregated all the kids in a big gym each morning. One day I brought her to the gym, waved goodbye, and saw a boy push her to the ground just as I was leaving. No forethought or planning, just a blurred memory of me rushing back to the kid, grabbing him by the shoulder, kneeling down and saying DON'T YOU EVER PUSH HER AGAIN. Unfortunately in my case this was in view of the entire student body, faculty, and a number of parents. Oops. I was gently advised by the teacher that they would handle the discipline and that I should refrain from physically addressing the children, or something like that... I was still fuzzy at this point.

When the rage abated later, I figured she was right. Now if I have a problem with a kid, I find out who the parent is and we have a talk.

And the authorities have abdicated the schools to the kids because of lawsuits. Well I say screw 'em.

This glut of stupid litigousness we're mired in will kill us all bro.; 12/8/08, 9:48 AM
Anonymous said...: TitusTakesABowWowWow said...I am having grape juice right now.

Grape juice tastes good. Yum, grape juice.

Welch's 100% Grape juice is almost too good.

I cut it with water to reduce the intoxicating effects.

Why the hell would anyone want to spoil grape juice and make wine? Yuck.; 12/8/08, 9:49 AM
MadisonMan said...: Welch's 100% Grape juice is almost too good.

It has to be 100% Concord Grape juice, though. Don't be fooled into buying that oversweetened bilge with White Grape Juice in it.; 12/8/08, 9:59 AM
KCFleming said...: Don't tease me, bro!; 12/8/08, 10:02 AM
kjbe said...: Loving teasing is a wonderful thing. I feel sorry for those who have never experienced it.

Count me as one who was not blessed with loving teasing, growing up. I do now count myself as blessed (though I was slow to come to it), for having married into a family that does practice it. Our daughter, luckily, was raised with it, via her dad and in-laws, and I do believe is stronger for it.

The cruelty of the bully is not overplayed and is very real for those without the tools to handle it. These coping tools come from our parents. Be grateful if your standing up to a bully came naturally – try to remember that not everyone is dealt the same cards.

I do also believe that kids, or later as adults, need to work out social situations for themselves. Experience is the best teacher.; 12/8/08, 10:32 AM
TitusLoveLookWhatYouDoneToMe said...: I was even bullied by my sister.

She called me Sissy Sally constantly. She was older than me. When her friends would come over to the house they would all call me Sissy Sally and walk around wiggling their butts and putting their hands in the traditional fag position.

It is Welshs Grape Juice. Yum. So good.; 12/8/08, 10:56 AM
TitusLoveLookWhatYouDoneToMe said...: I didn't get my coping skills from my parents.

I didn't want to tell them about all the bullying. I was fucking embarassed. My father was a big jock in the town and knew the phy ed teacher and all of the other old jocks from the town.

The last thing I wanted was him to know what was going on.

I coped with it on my own. I always knew that I would be out of there immediately and that there was a world outside of my small town. The thought of knowing I would leave gave me strength. And leave I did. I graduated in June and was gone in July.; 12/8/08, 10:59 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: I was gently advised by the teacher that they would handle the discipline and that I should refrain from physically addressing the children, or something like that... I was still fuzzy at this point.

Wow, I can't believe she had the nerve. I would have told her exactly where she could shove her ineffective discipline. If a child would dare shove a girl with the father right there, the teacher has obviously lost control.; 12/8/08, 11:18 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: Plus, that kid needed to learn that actions have consequences. If you attack someone right in front of the person's family, you should expect the family to strongly rebuke you. It was a good lesson for that kid that that's exactly what you did.; 12/8/08, 11:20 AM
Trooper York said...: Teasing is just the grown up word for ball busting. You need to bust other peoples balls and they need to bust yours right back.

Remember the golden rule:
Do unto others before they do it to you.; 12/8/08, 11:32 AM
Freeman Hunt said...: And you showed your daughter that you had her back. What would she have thought if you just walked away when someone shoved her down right in front of you? I bet, whether she showed it or not, that she thought her dad was pretty cool.; 12/8/08, 11:37 AM
TitusLoveLookWhatYouDoneToMe said...: What about me? Where is the compassion for me?

Can you all feel my pain?

I want some love. I am grieving here.; 12/8/08, 11:56 AM
Methadras said...: Steven said...

Well, you know, except the bit where Jesus says "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

Except the part where Jesus wanted you to learn that if you were struck on the left cheek and you turn and offer the right, well then what do you do when that gets struck too?

Doing good works is one thing. Having Christ heal and love those that came against him to kill him is something completely different. He knew he could do those things and he knew that we can only aspire to do those things. There are distinctions that have to be made, but the knowledge that even human tolerance has it's limits too. Even Christ wasn't that naive when he saw the money lenders in the temple blaspheming against his Father's house. He went bat-shit crazy and started kicking ass. Guess he reached his limit too right then and there, huh?; 12/8/08, 1:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Titus -- We love you sweetie. Sometimes. Other times we want to twist your panties. Hmm. Maybe not much of a threat.

I always told my daughter she should defend herself. It helped that she grew up amongst the stunt group. When in third grade a sixth grade boy always picked on her until one day he was continually bopping the back of her head and she spun and punched his nose, breaking it.

The Montessorial school she was at was one the held responsibility up to the perp. Jason got no sympathy and his parents didn't give him all that much either. Then he had to live with the fact the little fifty pound girlie broke his nose.; 12/8/08, 1:59 PM
blake said...: Schools are like prisons.

Behavior is pretty much as expected.; 12/8/08, 4:12 PM
Shanna said...: I know that many would disagree with me, but I think the cruelty of girl teasing is overplayed. It's almost always highly ignorable.

I think it is as cruel as people say, but it is ignorable. It mainly teaches you when it’s time to cut people out of your life. Which is a valuable lesson. Guys and girls learn totally different lessons, but I wouldn’t have wanted to be on the receiving end of the kind of physical bullying that sometimes gets mentioned. I would far rather just have to deal with catty bs.

My worst teasing/bullying was in 7th grade. Somebody decided to spread some dumb lie about me smoking and stealing. This was a Christian school and the boy who was the worst about it was the principles son and ended up receiving no lie the “christian conduct award” for that year, despite the way he acted towards me. I haven’t been scarred by this experience but it maybe made me a bit more cynical, particularly about religious authority.

But I think in second grade I accidentally pushed that little boy and he fell down and whined and cried to his mother. We really never got along, but I ended up leaving the school and going to public school, which I was supposed to have done that year anyway and never ever had any similar problems.; 12/8/08, 4:20 PM
Steven said...: Methadras:

"He knew he could do those things and he knew that we can only aspire to do those things."

Really? At Matthew 5:48, we have another direct command:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Really, go, read. Matthew 5:39-48.

I'm not a Christian. But if I were, I wouldn't want to face the Final Judgment and try to explain that, well, I thought this passage was just an inspirational ideal, not a set of commands that I was expected to do my best to actually obey.; 12/8/08, 8:16 PM
save_the_rustbelt said...: "My daughter got bullied by a boy in first grade. The teachers were then promoting some sort of DIY student "conflict resolution", which meant that victims got punished if they fought back, and had to "negotiate" (by themselves) using terms only a moron could discuss ("I feel bad when you tease me" ....no shit, girl, that's the point)."

Pogo:

My kids got this same crap, so I went and talked to the powers that be. One day some big kid pushed my son into a locker. My son turned around, grabbed him by the shirt collar, put him up against the locker, and told him to stop the crap. Another discussion at the school, but my son was left alone.

40 years ago common sense prevailed with both parents and school officials. Now, common sense is dead in at least half the population.; 12/9/08, 8:55 AM