ADDED: Caption contest!
(Photo from a Daily News article titled "Hillary Clinton suddenly vulnerable as bruises start to show.")
November 12, 2007
"There's always that doubt in the back of the minds of people of color... that you believe that somehow someone is better than you..."
Michelle Obama tries to explain why Barack Obama does not have more support from black Americans: "What we're dealing with in the black community is just the natural fear of possibility... I think that it's one of the legacies of racism and discrimination and oppression."
ADDED: Caption contest!
(Photo from a Daily News article titled "Hillary Clinton suddenly vulnerable as bruises start to show.")
ADDED: Caption contest!
(Photo from a Daily News article titled "Hillary Clinton suddenly vulnerable as bruises start to show.")
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160 comments:
Makes sense to me. You always see photos of only white guys hanging with Dr. King. And Jesse Jackson can't buy a staff person of color.
Please.
Trey
The natural fear of possibility? Does Mrs. Obama mean the fear of a black man succeeding at something really, really big and totally blowing away the whole America is a racist hellhole baloney?
It might be worth electing Obama just to shut the anti-white racists up for a while so we can have an honest discussion about racial issues.
It would be money well-spent by the Obama campaign to send a copy of this book to every voter of color.
I can't get outta my nice warm bed:
The white man made me did it!
I hit that honkie upside his head:
The white man made me did it!
I got no hope all hope is dead:
No clue: damn white man hid it!
So, the reason blacks won't vote for a black candidate is "white racism"?
On the surface a silly response but actually its quite clever. It sends the message to the AA community in a subtle way - vote for a Brother.
And it also lays a guilt trip on the white liberals. Of course, only 2 black people actually watch "Morning Joe".
It sounds like a variation of what is termed crab mentality.
What a strange statement. There is absolutely no doubt in my that there are lots of people better than me. All I have to do is look around. Why does she imagine that this is some kind of affliction of people of color?
It might be worth electing Obama just to shut the anti-white racists up for a while
Ladies and gentlemen, the Althouse reader.
It's a we be dumb speech.
It's talking about herself and attributing it to Blacks generally.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the Althouse reader."
Ladies and gentlemen, the guy that has to have Althouse read and explained to him.
So, it's a racism induced inferiority complex? So, you feel so hopeless you *purposely* underachieve?
Nice, circular argument. It can justify about any sort of behavior you want it to.
Doyle said...
It might be worth electing Obama just to shut the anti-white racists up for a while
Ladies and gentlemen, the Althouse reader.
A fish rots from the head.
Oh wait, I forgot. She's a liberal.
Ann,
Take not of this thread for your answer for why we can't have a decent dialogue on race. Michelle didn't even attack anyone personally in her statement, yet instead of you know, actually considering that there might be just a little truth to it, people would rather dismiss it with snark and talk of anti-white racists.
I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with Michelle, but those who find it easy to disregard that the historical racism and oppression in this country might have had some lasting effects, don't understand history or would just rather wish it all away.
Of course, she, Charles Murray, and Larry Summers are right: any scientist will have to seriously entertain the thought that there are probably great differences among races of humans, just as there are among the races of dogs and of pigeons. Even more likely is the existence of big differences between men and women, on account of the Y-chromosome (and missing duplicate X-chromosome) alone, which can't ever be eliminated by miscegenation.
Original Mike's comment that almost everyone can find superior beings just by looking around is silly, since even the Bell Curve accepts that as a truism.
The point is that we as a society may well be wasting a lot of our wealth trying to rear boys not to play with guns or girls with dolls, trying to teach math to anyone but Asian and White males, and trying to turn Asians and Whites into track stars and basketball players.
The Democrats have entire social programs aimed at making silk purses out of sows' ears, which need to be stopped before we all go broke.
First of all, it is primarily people of Black color, and not people of color. I seriously doubt that the new governor of LA has very many doubts about himself at all.
The difference? The Blacks in this country have a very different history in this country than do most people of color here. Most of the rest are immigrants and act like it. They are often the best and the brightest and come here to succeed, as many of them do.
Contrast this with many of the Blacks who have grown up here. Many of those who don't think that they can compete had ancestors who came here as slaves, and then other ancestors who lived under Jim Crow.
But the other thing to keep in mind is that this is precisely why quotas and affirmative action are so detrimental to Blacks in this country. Did Clarence Thomas get into Yale or Barack Obama into Harvard on their merits? Or due to the color of their skin? One is on the Supreme Court, and the other is making a credible run for the presidency. Yet, the question remains, in our minds, and more importantly, in theirs. In the color blind society of the Dream Speech of Martin Luther King, Jr., this would not be an question for either of them, nor for Blacks in this country in general.
jimbino said...
Of course, she, Charles Murray, and Larry Summers are right
Translation: I'm a racist fuckwit who likes to hide my racism behind discredited pseudo-science.
Ann most be so proud....
Oh wait, I forgot. She's a liberal.
Yeah, why do people assume that Ann is antagonistic towards this quote? It's totally unfair and partisan. She's just raising issues for her readers to discuss.
It's not that she believes in the narrative of the persecuted white volk, just because so many of her supportive Limbaugh-listening, Reynolds-reading pod people do.
It's just a coincidence, really.
I think that Doyle has it exactly backwards. If there is discrimination against Blacks now days, it is primarily from those who want to continue the plantation system through their benevolence towards the inferior blacks. To me, it is no surprise that the same party that was formed by slave owners, left the Union to preserve slavery (and those who remained mostly opposed the Civil War), gave us Jim Crow, and then were the primary opponents of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, is the party that supports affirmative action and seems to have greatly lowered expectations for Blacks, even today, with a Black Secretary of State and a credible Black running for president.
It's just a coincidence, really.
Duh! Of course. What was I thinking?
Bruce did your skinhead nephew steal your Blogger login again? I don't remember you that dumb.
I can't imagine Colin Powell or Condi Rice or Clarence Thomas making that argument. It's not that they are strangers to the occasional bout of self doubt. To be alive is to know that there is (or soon will be) someone coming along who will break whatever record might currently stand. Mrs. Obama's statement smacks of victimology on steroids, offered to take the sting out of Obama's second place showing in polls of black voters. Why he should be expected to be in first place goes unsaid in both the question and the answer. The presumed answer (racial identification with the polled voters) suggests that both the questioner as well as Mrs. Obama are starting with a pretty simplistic view of a larger and diverse voter pool. reductionist .
"It sounds like a variation of what is termed crab mentality."
Also known as "tall poppy syndrome".
"See, I'm the really big chesse here, see, so don't you forget see..."
Hayden - I think that Doyle has it exactly backwards. If there is discrimination against Blacks now days, it is primarily from those who want to continue the plantation system through their benevolence towards the inferior blacks.
Then the Plantation done got flooded and the entire network of taxpayer benevolence ceased to function. The thin veneer of civilization vanished, the results were plain for all to see.
Which the liberal media instantly recognized would be a problem showing the dramatic failure of the Welfare State they pushed faithfully. So they did the post-Katrina saturation media scapegoating campaign so people would not believe their own eyes, but blame Government for the NOLA underclass's inability to cope or behave.
***************
Michelle Obama has to dance around some difficult topics that PC says must not be "aired out" about pathologies in the black community.
1. Blacks have always made racial distinctions on skin color of other blacks and what behavior is expected. High Yellers, blacks with a lot of white ancestry, formed the black elites in many Southern regions and also up North in places like Harlem and Chicago.
Blue-blacks, the darker-skinned back country folks - had a different set of behaviors they needed to follow to be "authentic" to other darker complected blacks. Part of the rage against Clarence Thomas was he was a blue-black acting High Yeller. Though they dislike real High Yellers, and High Yellers tend to look down on those with darker skin..
2. Obama is not a real American black in many blacks eyes - he is an exotic creature with no slave lineage, no life in a real hood. Hawaii, private schools, Harvard - raised by a white family so he talks white? Those are unfortunately strikes against him in many black circles.
3. The black rage against overachievers who "put on airs". Also known as the African-American crabs in a bucket theory. One crab tried climbing up and over, the other crabs will try and pull it back down. (Sorry Ronin, I noticed you too had the same thought in an earlier post - scary we think alike at times) To them, the 1st black President - ought to, if there is any justice in America on the higher status they should have on historical grievances, victimhood over immigrants - have the 1st Black President come from the descendent of slaves. A real black.
But like it or not, blacks have to realize that generations after the Boomers think that they owe blacks no extra consideration..it's not 1963 in Selma, much as the old Civil Rights reenactors love to set up their little spectactular media events to piss and moan for more government favors and goodies owed to them as a racial identity group.
The days of the old civil rights era rearguard of the Jesse Jacksons, Saint MLK, Al Sharptons, John Conyers, Bob Heberts, and Cynthia McKinneys, Barbara Lees, Maxine Walters types are over.
Meet the future.
Which is the likes of Harold Ford, Michael Steele, Barack Obama, Clarence Thomas, Halle Berry, the black CEOs of over a thousand businesses, including Oprah. (America's most well-liked woman and our 1st black billionaire.)
hmmm... I see the trolls are in High Rut...le plus ca change...
The pic perhaps inspires a Vivien Leigh GWTW reference, but wow is that a landmine around here, so I'll pass...
"Leave the VAT, take the canolli"
"There's always that doubt in the back of the minds of people of color... that you believe that somehow someone is better than you..."
Well then. Very clearly what we need is another affirmative action, voter preferential set-aside program from the federal government. Let's start by repealing the Bush tax cuts for the rich and defunding his endless bloody war for oil.
To them, the 1st black President - ought to, if there is any justice in America on the higher status they should have on historical grievances, victimhood over immigrants - have the 1st Black President come from the descendent of slaves. A real black.
Someone forgot to tell Toni Morrison.
"You know, my husband thinks you look like Chris Tucker in Rush Hour. But he said he'd still do you in a hot minute."
Caption contest entry: “Here, smell my finger and guess what I had for lunch.”
Christopher said:
"Duh! Of course. What was I thinking?"
Generally, you don't.
Huh. Just got a email from my first cousin. Apparently 60 minutes did a story on DNA testing last month that featured part of my family. I have black relatives. Technology is a wondrous thing. I wonder just how interconnected we all actually are.
jeff said...
Christopher said:
"Duh! Of course. What was I thinking?"
Generally, you don't.
Man, now there's a putdown worthy of after dinner badinage at the Algonquin Round Table.
I assume you'll follow up with "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah."
"Man, now there's a putdown worthy of after dinner badinage at the Algonquin Round Table."
I have no idea why you continue to confuse statements of fact with a put down. I assume it was the lack of formal education. See? THAT was a put down.
"I assume you'll follow up with "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah."
Well, no. And this coming from someone who's favorite response is "go fuck yourself"?
Where in your list of put downs do you score that one?
I have no idea why you continue to confuse statements of fact with a put down. I assume it was the lack of formal education. See? THAT was a put down.
And a withering one at that, thoroughly worthy of George S. Kaufman or Noel Coward.
"go fuck yourself"?
Where in your list of put downs do you score that one?
"Go fuck yourself" is poetry.
CAPTION: Michelle Obama humors an old white lady at an Iowa event.
Doyle sets a new record on his postings. First: It's not that she believes in the narrative of the persecuted white volk, just because so many of her supportive Limbaugh-listening, Reynolds-reading pod people do.
And then, in response to my arguments: Bruce did your skinhead nephew steal your Blogger login again? I don't remember you that dumb.
I wouldn't exactly call that a response on the merits, but rather ad hominem, or more accurately, ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam.
Those are unfortunately strikes against him in many black circles.
Where are these magical black covens you speak of. I remember in kindergarten I had a very intellectual discussion with one of the "dumb" kids, who it turned out was very intelligent but shy. Then when his parents and friends came around, he started acting "dumb" again. Different mode of speech, demeanor, everything. I am not sure what "talking white" means, but I am sure many blacks "talk white" with other blacks when not in the company of hostile white people intent on distorting their language.
"And a withering one at that, thoroughly worthy of George S. Kaufman or Noel Coward."
When I feel you deserve one of that magnitude, I will apply myself and give you one.
"Go fuck yourself" is poetry."
Really? But it doesn't rhyme.
Perhaps we just travel with different classes of people. That's ok. Like the great Judge Smails once said. "The world needs ditch diggers too".
"I wouldn't exactly call that a response on the merits,"
But it's Doyle. You have to grade on a sliding scale. It's unfair to hold Doyle, christopher and Lucky to the same standards of normal people. Think of it as affirmative action for the challenged.
CAPTION: Richard Nixon gabs with Michelle Obama in New Hampshire.
"Where are these magical black covens you speak of."
Are you seriously denying the existence of people like that?
"I am not sure what "talking white" means"
Then ask someone. Like in the DC school system. Or Detroit. This is common knowledge, despite the fact you don't approve.
"I am sure many blacks "talk white" with other blacks"
I am equally sure many do. What does that have to do with anything?
"when not in the company of hostile white people intent on distorting their language."
What exactly are you taking about? Intent on distorting their language? What is that supposed to even mean?
"Go fuck yourself" is poetry."
Really? But it doesn't rhyme.
It isn't haiku, either.
Now in christopher's defense, it is the punchline in a knock knock joke.
Not sure if that could be considered poetry. Still.......using that sliding scale I was talking about....maybe.
But it's Doyle. You have to grade on a sliding scale. It's unfair to hold Doyle, christopher and Lucky to the same standards of normal people. Think of it as affirmative action for the challenged.
I do like that, AA for the challenged. And that may suggest why at least Doyle here won't address AA on the merits.
It is one of the legacies of racism that Barack Obama's considered black! Racially speaking, he's no more "black" than he is "white" -- and culturally speaking he's a lot less. He's called "black" because as a culture we still haven't totally gotten away from the old one-drop rule.
But it is certainly odd to hear it said that the "lingering effects of racism" are to blame for the fact that black people *aren't* eager to vote for a guy just because of the color of his skin...
It's a silly argument to begin with. I suppose some people might not vote for Obama under this rational, but how many? And of that subset, how many actually vote? The people who have succeeded or want their kids to succeed don't think like that. I think if he gets the nomination, he will do just fine with the black vote. If he is still in it after Iowa and New Hampshire he will do just fine in the primaries with the black votes. I suspect he will get very few black votes in Iowa or New Hampshire.
Heh. I am a little slow today.
"He's called "black" because as a culture we still haven't totally gotten away from the old one-drop rule."
I first read that and wondered what golf had to do with anything.
What exactly are you taking about?
Well, it's only "talking white" to you if you never hear black people talk that way because they are never comfortable in your company. For them it isn't "talking white" -- it's just how they talk to people who don't project racist stereotypes onto them during social interaction.
As for some blacks attacking the diction of other blacks due to class differences; that isn't racial or confined to any racial group.
Intent on distorting their language? What is that supposed to even mean?
I am sure that at least once you have been condescended to by someone who repeatedly misinterprets your statements due to false assumptions. And I am sure you have met someone who did it to you on purpose. Some people do this to others simply because of their race.
Are you seriously denying the existence of people like that?
Of people like what?
"Well, it's only "talking white" to you if you never hear black people talk that way because they are never comfortable in your company. "
Again, what are you talking about? I totally disagree with the notion that there is such a thing as "talking white" and it is a disgrace that some kids dont fullfill their potential in school because being good at math is "acting white".
"For them it isn't "talking white" -- it's just how they talk to people who don't project racist stereotypes onto them during social interaction."
I think you have this whole "talking white" thing totally backwards. You do understand no one is talking about any white people making fun of any other race for this so called talking white thing, right? It's a black on black thing.
Of people who disparage black kids for "speaking white".
The only people I have met are people like you, who claim the phenomenon exists without any proof. Class differences are not necessarily the same as cultural differences.
You know, what we are talking about?
You don't know what you are talking about.
"who claim the phenomenon exists without any proof. Class differences are not necessarily the same as cultural differences."
Your seriously denying this exists, and is a major issue in some inner city schools. Wow. Well, let me know how that burying your head in the sand method works out for you.
Swear to God, it's like talking to lucky. "You haven't PROVED we landed on the moon, so you're a dumbass" Unfrickenbelievable.
You do understand no one is talking about any white people making fun of any other race for this so called talking white thing, right?
My point is that the phenomenon is likely a manifestation of differences in class, where "white" is taken as synonymous with "bourgeois". It has nothing to do with racism, unless you insist on seeing it that way.
I totally disagree with the notion that there is such a thing as "talking white" and it is a disgrace that some kids dont fullfill their potential in school because being good at math is "acting white".
Again, this is your own bias. Who says that black children are purposely failing at math? The likelier problem is that experienced math teachers opt to teach in affluent, white neighborhoods and schools in iminority neighborhoods are inadequately funded. You are exactly the kind of person who a normal black would take as hostile, and so you would never be exposed (or introduced) to the vast masses of black people who "talk white".
google "talking white". Christ.
Talkin' white, talkin' black, talkin' anywhichway,
I talk any way I like fronta dat white ofay!
google "talking white". Christ.
Can you point me to a peer-reviewed sociological study? I'd be happy to read it.
"Can you point me to a peer-reviewed sociological study? I'd be happy to read it."
Yeah, probably. But then we would start talking about the sun coming up in the east and you would want me to send you a paper from NASA confirming that. As it has been stated before:
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
You want to pretend this doesn't exist, fine by me.
"You are exactly the kind of person who a normal black would take as hostile, and so you would never be exposed (or introduced) to the vast masses of black people who "talk white".
Stereotype much? "normal" black? I rarely spend time in any places where black people talk any different from me. What in the hell are you talking about? What have I said here that would lead you to believe an entire race would assume I was hostile? Quote it.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
Exactly, which is why I am asking you for your facts. It presently appears you have none. All you have to do is link to the study.
JohnTaylor88
What makes you think someone in lefty acadame' would deign to study 'talking white'?
I have heard the phrase. If you haven't, you're awfully sheltered. Can't be helped.
What have I said here that would lead you to believe an entire race would assume I was hostile?
nor·mal (nôrml)
adj.
1. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
2. Biology Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.
3. Abbr. n or N Chemistry
a. Designating a solution having one gram equivalent weight of solute per liter of solution.
b. Designating an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight and unbranched chain of carbon atoms.
4. Mathematics
a. Being at right angles; perpendicular.
b. Perpendicular to the direction of a tangent line to a curve or a tangent plane to a surface.
5.
a. Relating to or characterized by average intelligence or development.
b. Free from mental illness; sane.
n.
1. Something normal; the standard: scored close to the normal.
2. The usual or expected state, form, amount, or degree.
3.
a. Correspondence to a norm.
b. An average.
4. Mathematics A perpendicular, especially a perpendicular to a line tangent to a plane curve or to a plane tangent to a space curve.
An average. A sane person. A person of average intelligence. A typical member of the group. Any of those uses of the word normal does not categorically refer to "an entire race".
Lt. Androzzi:Well, I thought you might know something I wanna know. Seems there been a lot o' low quiet rumbles goin' on uptown... our people have been able to pick of the sounds of it, but no words.
Shaft:That's cuz us black folk talk mush mouth, Lieutenant.
Lt. Androzzi:I thought we were gonna to get to it?
Shaft:We did, but you want me to pidgeon. I just said 'Up yours, baby!'
Lt. Androzzi:How come a couple o' cats from Harlem come downtown this mornin' lookin' for John Shaft?
Shaft:Well, they're soul brothers. They came down so I could each 'em the handshake.
(Shaft, 1971)
I have heard the phrase.
I have heard the phrase "Martian invaders," too, but that doesn't mean Martian invaders exist independent of the mind.
Here are some other phrases:
1. unicorn
2. Hamlet
3. Jack Bauer
4. Thor
Yep another lucky.
Parsing out his bullshit.
As I am sure you know, if I referred to "normal" blacks I would be called a racist from people like you.
Much as you are now for bringing up the issue of "talking white" and how the accusation can effect black kids in school. You would prefer to cut and paste out a dictionary, rather than address the problem. Again, fine by me. There is no law that says you have to care about what happens to black kids.
Donald Blake: Mine name is Donald Blake, but you can call me Thor, God of Thunder.
Mary Jane Watson: That's the cheesist pick line I have ever hear. Yeah and I'm Wonder Woman.
Lana Lang: But he is kinka cute in a scandi sort of way.
(Thor, 2006)
As I am sure you know, if I referred to "normal" blacks I would be called a racist from people like you.
Not if you were referring to a sociological phenomenon for which there is a statistical norm.
Much as you are now for bringing up the issue of "talking white" and how the accusation can effect black kids in school.
There is no proof this phenomenon exists. If you have a peer-reviewed sociological study, cite to it. In the absence of that, talking about "talking white" is just a diversion from talking about real problems, like inequities in funding education and the habit of experienced teachers migrating to affluent neighborhoods where blacks do not live. Which you would be talking about if you cared about black kids, as opposed to insisting on viewing the world through the lens of race.
Wait. I see where he does admit it exists.
"My point is that the phenomenon is likely a manifestation of differences in class, where "white" is taken as synonymous with "bourgeois". It has nothing to do with racism, unless you insist on seeing it that way."
I don't think I ever mentioned racism. I know you did, since you spent your first 1/2 dozen or posts accusing me of telling black people they "talk white".
What I said, and what my point has been is that it is a serious problem in some inner city schools.
If you feel it is a class thing, ok. It still exists, as you stated in that paragraph, so I am baffled at this last batch of crap where you pretend you never heard of such a thing.
"Which you would be talking about if you cared about black kids, as opposed to insisting on viewing the world through the lens of race."
Again with the mind reading. Justify that.
"Of people who disparage black kids for "speaking white"."
The only people I have met are people like you, who claim the phenomenon exists without any proof.
What would you consider "proof"? Growing up in the South I knew a lot of black kids who had that attitude, disparaging literate or studious black kids for "talking white" or "acting white". But I can't "prove" I experienced that, because, darn it all, I didn't have the presence of mind to videotape my childhood for use in later online arguments.
If you're looking for evidence that the phenomenon exists, Google's your friend. There's plenty of research (and even more anecdotes) about the phenomenon.
"In the absence of that, talking about "talking white" is just a diversion from talking about real problems, like inequities in funding education and the habit of experienced teachers migrating to affluent neighborhoods where blacks do not live."
Actually, I haven't talked about that HERE in THIS thread. And that's really all you know about me.
Growing up in the South I knew a lot of black kids who had that attitude, disparaging literate or studious black kids for "talking white" or "acting white".
That could be class related. All the man wants is a peer-reviewed study. Pretty low standard.
If you're looking for evidence that the phenomenon exists, Google's your friend.
No. Urban myths "exist". Doesn't mean the events happened. The study, I presume, would link the fact that people say "X talks white" with the other behavior, e.g., lower math scores, and show that (1) black kids do it because of race; (2)black kids perceive it racially; and (3) it, and not social inequities, causes kids not to perform academically.
What I said, and what my point has been is that it is a serious problem in some inner city schools.
Right, but where is the proof that it has any causal connection to anything? If kidsjust say it for class reasons, it's meaningless. I'm poor, he's rich. That causes kids to fail math class? Come on. Please.
I sincerely doubt this is a serious problem. If that's your assertion, prove it.
I know you did, since you spent your first 1/2 dozen or posts accusing me of telling black people they "talk white".
I don't see this on the thread.
He Talk Like a White Boy: Reflections on Faith, Family, Politics, and Authenticity
By Joseph C. Phillips
"Unfortunately, it is still very difficult for a leftist like me to stomach Phillips’ going overboard to extol the virtues of Bush II as “a man of vision, conviction and faith,” and of Reagan, who I remember repeatedly referring to Nelson Mandela as a terrorist while supporting South Africa’s apartheid regime. Such infuriating asides makes one wonder whether this brother only talks like a white boy or maybe might even think like one.
Speaking of “talking white,” the book takes its title from an incident which occurred in a classroom back when Joseph was in junior high school, the first time his absence of a ghetto accent was pointed out and made an issue. He recounts how felt hurt that his African-American credentials had been questioned on the basis of how he spoke. Yet, he simultaneously asserts that rather than being scarred by the experience, “The man I am today had its genesis in that moment."
So does nothing exist unless it's been studied and peer-reviewed?
A quick google search turned these up:
http://econweb.fas.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers/fryer_torelli.pdf
"Using a newly available data set, which allows one to construct an objective measure of a student’s popularity, we demonstrate that there are large racial differences in the relationship between popularity and academic achievement; our (albeit narrow) definition of ‘acting white.’"
http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3212736.html
Maybe that will liven things up.
"I don't see this on the thread."
Then read it again.
Then read it again.
Wow. You're not a condescending jackass at all. You're right, all black people must love you!
Sorry, the links got cut off. Try these:
Harvard study, 2006
something from the Hoover Institution
According to the Amazon summary of the book you cite: "With a memoirist's eye for incident, he writes about sitting out eighth-grade pickup football games, caught between the team of white boys he'd grown up with and the team of black boys who complained he lived in "Honkyville.""
In other words, he grew up in a white neighborhood because he was affluent. The black kids who saw him as different were poorer than he was. How is that not a class issue?
Ron Jackson's Perspective
in Ebony Voices
June 6, 2004
Talkin' White
"The accusation of educated blacks talking and acting white has been around longer than the Brown decision. It continues today. Many black youth who make education a priority and excel in academics are ridiculed by other blacks, as if failure is a "black thang."
Speaking like professionals on the evening news or the director of a funeral home is not talking white. Being able to hold an intelligent conversation in English with anyone is not talking white. Being able to effectively express you goals, values, or intentions verbally is not talking white.
"
"Well, it's only "talking white" to you if you never hear black people talk that way because they are never comfortable in your company. For them it isn't "talking white"
"You are exactly the kind of person who a normal black would take as hostile, and so you would never be exposed (or introduced) to the vast masses of black people who "talk white"."
You can start with these, Joe. I will start working on getting those reports from NASA on the likely hood the sun will be coming up in the East tomorrow morning.
"Well, it's only "talking white" to you if you never hear black people talk that way because they are never comfortable in your company. For them it isn't "talking white"
"You are exactly the kind of person who a normal black would take as hostile, and so you would never be exposed (or introduced) to the vast masses of black people who "talk white"."
You can start with these, Joe. I will start working on getting those reports from NASA on the likely hood the sun will be coming up in the East tomorrow morning.
Mortimer, you miss the point entirely.
JohnTaylor88 said that there is no such thing as "talking white". He's wrong. We're showing why.
You want me to do all your work for you but I am the condescending one.
And where do I or anyone else claim I am beloved by all black people? Or white for that matter?
Here are some published articles on Ebonics.
http://www.cal.org/topics/dialects/aae.html
The links are at the site.
This discussion reminds me of a segment on "The story of English" that I saw on PBS. It interviewed some rich black men who sent their children to private schools. The wealthy men, who in this case had come from humble beginnings, noticed and complained that their children spoke quite differently than they did.
PBS is not known for their reactionary stances. Before the advent of television, people went around to county fairs and could identify, often to the county, where someone grew up based on their dialect and accent.
Trey
Here's from the Harvard study:
Finally, we argue (and provide circumstantial evidence) that ‘acting white’ is an
equilibrium phenomenon, the consequence of two-audience signaling; not self-sabotage
among blacks or the result of an oppositional cultural identity that declares education
useless. While the evidence in favor of the two-audience signaling model is far from
overwhelming, it is the only model we consider that does not directly contradict the data
in fundamental ways.
How does this study support your hypothesis? This study says your hypothesis is not borne out by the facts!
Kevin Martin in
Black Voice News
Reaction to Cosby – Are We Bilingual or ESL?
Friday, 16 July 2004
"Worst of all, in some cases current Black culture denigrates and discourages the speaking of standard English. Growing up, how many of you remember being accused of “talking white” or being a “sell out” or “Uncle Tom” for speaking standard English? I sure have these memories. But, not speaking English when you grow up in an English-speaking country is ridiculous. "
Mortimer, you are totally off.
Jeff - jeff said...
Huh. Just got a email from my first cousin. Apparently 60 minutes did a story on DNA testing last month that featured part of my family. I have black relatives. Technology is a wondrous thing. I wonder just how interconnected we all actually are.
Get the test results. As long as the "Oracle from Arizona's" magical rectal pluck for 25 more years of Affirmative Action based on her being the "diviner" of the Constitution is valid, you have a gold mine. I'd have a talk with your boss about the promotional opportunities you are now due as a DNA-certified member of the oppressed, victimized minority. And, your kids, if you have any, may get the college or job "upgrade and scholarship" package deal as blacks deserving better than equal treatment.
Congrats!
I'm part Hispanic, but the wrong type of Hispanic..the ones from Spain. If only my white ancestors had become white Mexicans, I'd have special privileges thanks to Nixon's "race-progressive" Jewish lawyers at EEO.
Then again, the same EEO lawyers royally screwed a good friend of mine who is Filipino. He is not classified as a "Pacific Islander". Wrong Pacific Islands to get the entitlement to extra Gov't bennies.
***************
is just a diversion from talking about real problems, like inequities in funding education and the habit of experienced teachers migrating to affluent neighborhoods where blacks do not live.
The idea that black success or failure is defined by the Hero-Teacher and how much money taxpayers are forced to throw into the public school system is crap the teachers unions and Lefties have pushed for 40 years.
1. Blacks that are bused to white schools perform substandard.
2. Whites and Asians stuck in a school where minority underclass values prevail perform slightly below their white "well-off" counterparts in better area schools, but substantially above blacks in ritzy schools.
3. Experiments where the Feds poured money into magnet schools or made Islands of Excellence in an underclass school with the most superb teachers and up to 20,000 dollars spent a black student per yr show the money and "superteachers" - is money down a rathole. No significant rise in black underclass performance.
4. Private and Catholic schools and home study students that cost far less than public school per student expentures, outperform those public schools. They even rise to nearly being in the ballpark of our educational betters in Europe, Russia, India, and Asia. (All who spend far less taxpayer money on each student).
Superior school performance is mostly a function of the student's brains and proper attitude, and the culture and earnings of their parents.
Our biggest problem is not buying black underclass students more brains and better attitudes about learning. It is working with immigrants so that American-black underclass attitudes, dysfunctionalism, laziness about learning - does not affect other groups to the greater detriment of society.
Its one thing to have tens of thousands of clueless NOLA parasites wandering around chest deep in sewage with a "liberated" plasma TV balanced on each shoulder screaming the goverment isn't doing enough to cook you hot meals and get you in a nice hotel with cable TV.
It's another if immigrants think that sort of behavior is rewarded by the American Gov't and worth emulating instead of studying and working hard.
JohnTaylor88 said that there is no such thing as "talking white".
No, he said that at most it's a matter of perception, based in class differences, not a racial thing. It most certainly does not exist independent of the mind as Joe has conceived of it. And the studies you cited and the book you cited confirm that.
Mortimer, you are totally off.
I'm off? I cited from the materials you provided. Why don't you read them!
mortimer, read the freakin thread. He denies it exists. Read the majority of his comments. Like you, he prefers to just cover his ears and sing NANANANANANANA. I am not sure that will help.
Like you, he prefers to just cover his ears and sing NANANANANANANA.
The study you cited point-blank says your hypothesis is false: '[A]cting white’ is an
equilibrium phenomenon, the consequence of two-audience signaling; not self-sabotage
among blacks or the result of an oppositional cultural identity that declares education
useless. While the evidence in favor of the two-audience signaling model is far from
overwhelming, it is the only model we consider that does not directly contradict the data
in fundamental ways.
Here is your first cite.
"In other words, he grew up in a white neighborhood because he was affluent. The black kids who saw him as different were poorer than he was. How is that not a class issue?"
But according to you, there is no proof the above happens, so how is it a class issue? And again, who cares if it is racial or class?
What were your other cites?
"I cited from the materials you provided."
I see you have cited from one source supplied. How about all the others?
"It most certainly does not exist independent of the mind as Joe has conceived of it."
You're missing the point, and ascribing views to me that I have not stated.
I'll repeat the quote that I included in my first post:
"Using a newly available data set, which allows one to construct an objective measure of a student’s popularity, we demonstrate that there are large racial differences in the relationship between popularity and academic achievement; our (albeit narrow) definition of ‘acting white.’"
The point isn't what the motivation is with the "acting white" phenomenon. The point is that the phenomenon exists, and you can't explain it away.
And as for what constitutes "self-sabotage," that's another argument, so let's not get into that here.
"does not exist independent of the mind"
Hooey.
That could be said of damn near anything.
He doesn't want to admit what's right in front of him, however obvious.
I see you have cited from one source supplied.
No, I cited from two:
1. The Amazon summary of the Joseph Phillips book.
2. The Harvard study.
If you cannot even count, it reflects poorly on your ability to link the fact that a phrase exists in the English language with a real social phenomenon that matches the connotations of the phrase. The potential for mismatch should be obvious, e.g., women working outside the home does not = "feminazi takeover".
The point is that the phenomenon exists, and you can't explain it away.
Before I disagree with you, I meant to refer to Jeff. Not you.
In any event, it isn't about "explaining it away." What Jeff was talking about doesn't exist. Jeff was talking about black kids telling other black kids that they act white for cultural/racial reasons, which is causing academic failure amongst blacks. There is no proof that phenomenon exists outside of Jeff's head.
As for poor black kids name-calling richer black kids, okay. But that isn't what Jeff was talking about, and there's no proof that, and that alone, causes academic failure, either.
The study quite obviously rips apart Jeff's urban myth (indeed, that was the point of the study):
[A]cting white’ is an
equilibrium phenomenon, the consequence of two-audience signaling; not self-sabotage
among blacks or the result of an oppositional cultural identity that declares education
useless.
There's a new generation takin' up the challenge
To raise the conciousness of all mankind
Tellin' it straight without a chaser
Like Train the motivator
Bringin' on new dimensions to fundamental vibes
Unfoldin' revelations from a universal source
Deep awareness for the wonders of the world
People yearnin' for the learnin'
Positive where life's concernin'
Optimistic in the quest for peace
So detach yourself from stress and ignite
The cultural feel
We're standing in the frontline with
A message clear for all
We've come in search of wisdom
The inspiration, information
Listen and learn
Talkin' loud
And sayin' something
'Bout the way we live our lives today
Talkin' loud
And sayin' something
Revelations from a risin' generation
Buildin' on solid ground foundation
Complete with soul seduction
Come together, elevate your mind
What have we got if not each other
You can lean on me my brother
We got clear intentions
On planetary vibes
Detach yourself from stress
Ignite the cultural view
We're standing in the frontline with
The message clear for all
We've come in search of wisdom
Inspiration, information
Listen and learn
-- "Talkin' Loud" by Incognito
"There is no proof that phenomenon exists outside of Jeff's head."
Gee, it was all just an urban myth! I guess there's nothing wrong at all for blacks in school then. QED, Mortimer.
Criminey.
Gee, it was all just an urban myth! I guess there's nothing wrong at all for blacks in school then.
No. But I imagine there are real causes that explain the problems. What Jeff was talking about just isn't one of them.
"Jeff was talking about black kids telling other black kids that they act white for cultural/racial reasons,"
No that is not what Jeff was talking about.
"As for poor black kids name-calling richer black kids, okay. But that isn't what Jeff was talking about"
Are both of you guys mind readers now?
Here is what Jeff is talking about. He is talking about black kids accusing other black kids of "talking white". This can have the effect of those kids purposely doing poorly in school so that they fit in. I have NEVER assigned a motive as to why these kids do that.
"There is no proof that phenomenon exists outside of Jeff's head."
Please inform 60 minutes. Please inform my local paper. Please inform any number of parents in the DC area where I last saw this referred to.
Caption: "Hillary Robs Obama at Gunpoint!!".
Bruce Hayden said:
But the other thing to keep in mind is that this is precisely why quotas and affirmative action are so detrimental to Blacks in this country.
I think Bruce kind of understands Michelle's comments, and this is how it plays out in one area of real life.
Pick up a copy of Black Enterprise. Any copy, any year. Read the profiles of the entrepreneurs or the lists of the largest black businesses.
Now look for revenues. Good you see them. Now look for profits, or net.
Nothing. So here the premiere Black business magazine, which ought to be somewhat comprehensive, manages to avoid the type of net profit and margin data that allows one to truly analyze the worth of a business. There is no way to value the business against the wider world.
And you will see this replicated in nearly every black publication. If you are black, and not openly conservative, then the coverage will be glowing and lacking in informative detail.
Then you ask yourself, "Why is that?"
Would revealing faults help highlight the fact that you may not be as good as someone else at something? Will revealing net profits indicate that your business is not as successful as some white verion of the same business? In cases, yes.
You end up with possitivity as a mask for insecurity.
And the remedy for that is not MORE affirmative action (whose true beneficiaries are white women),and which only creates an environment where Black achievements can be diminished by white liberals and conservatives alike.
I would imagine that Ms.Obama is voicing thoughts that most blacks would not admit to, and thoughts that reflect the reality of certain blacks, but not all.
What is probably more accurate is the fear that OTHERS think that someone is better than you.
He is talking about black kids accusing other black kids of "talking white". This can have the effect of those kids purposely doing poorly in school so that they fit in.
There is no proof of a causal connection between such accusations and academic performance or proof that the accusations are of cultural origin. Which is the point of the Harvard study. The "[t]his can have the effect of" part is just speculation that is necessarily valid only in your head.
You know what. I just don't care enough about this to continue. The absolute best part about this entire conversation is that if Ann had posted that "talking white" was a urban myth and I agreed, both Mortimer and John Taylor would be accusing me of being a racist. Well, actually, John Taylor already has.
"There is no proof of a causal connection between such accusations and academic performance or proof that the accusations are of cultural origin. Which is the point of the Harvard study."
Looks like new rule is you only have to have one study to prove anything.
All those other things mentioned? Doesn't matter.
No. But I imagine there are real causes that explain the problems.
I just finished reading the Harvard study.
My read? It's crap.
Example?
"Eliminating racial differences in the relationship between popularity and achievement has no effect on the mean student or students who attend predominantly
black schools – but could potentially be a major reason for the underperformance of minorities in suburban schools or the lack of adequate representation of Blacks and Hispanics in elite colleges and universities."
So acting white isn't a racial issue, unless black kids go to schools with whites in them.
So stupid only an intellectual would believe it.
Anyway, Mortimer, I have known two white kids who were physically attacked by blacks for doing well in their grade school, and those students knew black kids who suffered the same.
Harvard is full of shit if they think the phenomenon is one of popularity alone, and that it doesn't damage kids.
"Where are these magical black covens you speak of."
Oh, I thought that was an entry in the caption contest!
The absolute best part about this entire conversation is that if Ann had posted that "talking white" was a urban myth and I agreed, both Mortimer and John Taylor would be accusing me of being a racist.
I don't think anyone called you a racist. I don't think you're a racist. I just think you're factually incorrect. And you haven't shown a causal link between the "talking white" phenomenon and academic performance among blacks.
Oh, I thought that was an entry in the caption contest!
That IS a pretty good line.
I guess I find it all somewhat funny as I do not see Obama as the "black" candidate but rather as the liberal yuppie candidate.
I think this is from the same harvard study.
"The effect is intensified
among high achievers and in schools with more interracial contact, but non-existent
among students in predominantly black schools or private schools."
Page 2.
The first 13 words in the quote mean what?
jeff
They mean nothing at all. Just academic gobbledy-gook.
" Children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white."
-- Barack Obama, keynote speech, 2004 Democratic National Convention"
Huh.
That's rhetoric in a speech.
oh, I went ahead and read the study too. My point is that rather than disputing what I have been saying as Mortimer has been saying, it does nothing of the sort. Those 13 words verify it. I wonder how Mortimer missed them, since they are at the beginning of the whole thing. It's like those guys at Harvard found the space in my head in which this only exists.
"That's rhetoric in a speech."
But how would he know something that only exists in my head?
And what does Obama know anyway?
He's not a Harvard researcher.
"2 It is imperative to note that there is nothing unique about Black culture. A version of ‘acting white’ is also
prevalent in ethnographies involving the Buraku Outcastes of Japan (DeVos and Wagatsuma 1966), Italian
immigrants in Boston's West End (Gans 1962), the Maori of New Zealand (Chapple, Jefferies, and Walker
1997), and the working class in Britain (Willis 1977), among others. In all cases high achievers receive a
derogatory label from their peer group. For example, in the peer group society documented in Gans (1962),
upward mobile youth interested in education were labeled “mobiles” and “sissies.” See Fryer (2004) for a
detailed discussion of these groups. Furthermore, we examine Hispanics in addition to blacks throughout
this paper."
Footnote number 2. Same paper.
Caption:
"You picked 'stone' again? Darn it; I'm scissors!"
Personally, I'm good with knowing black parents who are worried about their kids education to tell me this exists, but you wanted a study. There is the Harvard one for you. My question is, just how did you miss all this stuff when you read it?
"For Blacks, higher
achievement is associated with modestly higher popularity until a grade point average of
3.5, when the slope turns negative."
page 5
"Eliminating ‘acting white’ would have no
effect on the average student, but can potentially explain 11.3% of the black-white test
score gap and 23% of the Hispanic-white test score gap among high achievers."
page 7
Jeff -- As an Italian American I see that there was a meniton of teh same issue with Italians in Boston. I joke that I was part of the first generation to leave the "Italian ghetto" as I grew up in the suburbs. Most of the Italian families tended not to be big on education. Many of my friends did not go to college, or drifted through many years of community college and/or trade school.
My parents felt that a lack of education held them back (my mother was a high school drop out and my father went from high school to the Korean War). So they pushed me to go to college then law school (though they wanted me to be a doctor) and had some ribbing from the people in the neighborhood.
I think that has thankfully changed with this generation.
despite that, jeff, their conclusion is negative.
Or not. Hard to decipher.
"despite that, jeff, their conclusion is negative.
Or not. Hard to decipher."
Yeah, I know. That's the reason I avoided wading thru this thing. They certainly could have used a good editor. I think they concluded that it doesn't exist. Except where it does.
Anthony, that's interesting. AFAIK that could be because this is a class thing. However, it seems that recent black immigrates push their kids to excel in school. Like Vietnamese immigrates did. Look at the Asians in California. Yet this study we are discussing says Hispanic kids are hit by this harder than the black ones. I have no idea what this all means. Waiting for the next study from Harvard.
It is imperative to note that there is nothing unique about Black culture.
Yes. And your assertion is that it was a black cultural thing. Not a universal phenomenon related to class that has no effect on the average black person. Which the study does not say.
AFAIK that could be because this is a class thing.
Which is not what you said before you looked at the study.
>Anthony, that's interesting. AFAIK that could be because this is a class thing.
That could be a big part of it. Where I grew up, most of the kids were either Italian or Irish, with a handful of Jews. The idea that doing well in school was bad seemed to be more of an Italian thing than an Irish thing, and stereotypes aside, it definitly was not a Jewish thing.
despite that, jeff, their conclusion is negative.
Because a universal sociological phenomonon tied to class is not the same as a unique cultural one related to racial psychology.
I have no idea what this all means.
That much is obvious.
That could be class related. All the man wants is a peer-reviewed study. Pretty low standard.
What he wants is to have an argument. He could do the Google searches jeff and I suggested and find citations of a number of peer-reviewed articles in the first couple of hits.
No, he said that at most it's a matter of perception, based in class differences
You keep going on about "class differences". Could you offer some proof that "classes" exist in America, please?
"Yes. And your assertion is that it was a black cultural thing. "
No it wasnt. My assertion is that it exists and is an issue with black kids.
Why are you making things up?
"Which is not what you said before you looked at the study."
Would it be at all possible for you to actually read the posts before you quote me on things I didnt say, and deny things I did. Keep scrolling up. You'll find the one way before you got involved where I said it could be a class thing.
"Because a universal sociological phenomonon tied to class is not the same as a unique cultural one related to racial psychology."
The only people talking about this being a unique cultural one is you. All I have said, repeatedly, is that it effects black kids. It does. You spent most of your time saying it doesn't exist. Now your point is it exists but doesn't just effect black kids? Try not to hurt your back moving those goal posts.
"I have no idea what this all means.
That much is obvious."
Well sure. I am still waiting for you to explain all those quotes I pulled from the study. You know, the ones you skipped.
jeff said... " tc-really. What the hell? You know absolutely no one reads that stuff, right? I mean, dude. I have nothing against crazy people, but come on.
Hey, when I said the above, what I meant was....pretty much what I said.
Up the dose, brother.
TC, -- you've got 94 posts up on your blog, all with contents enabled, and not a single one of them with a comment. Ever wonder why nobody cares what you write? Hint: its because you're mentally ill.
Revenant said...
TC, -- you've got 94 posts up on your blog, all with contents enabled, and not a single one of them with a comment. Ever wonder why nobody cares what you write? Hint: its because you're mentally ill.
Hey boy, "mentally ill" is what you do with what you've got. As I am 58, and I have an extensive list of accomplishments try on "res ipsa loguitur" for size,little man with a tiny prick. What have you done ?
And if you're female, stop expecting me to provide you with material for your wet dreams.
jeff said...' Children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white."
-- Barack Obama, keynote speech, 2004 Democratic National Convention"
"Huh."
*Jeff, are you saying you really don't understand this?
There's nothing like a bunch of white people discussing...black people.
Good Lord...
jeff said... " tc-really...You know absolutely no one reads that stuff
... I have nothing against crazy people, but come on."
You know what Jeff, there aint no such thing as "mental illness". All there is is people who think their own way and disagree with the way everybody else thinks. And "crazy" is as "crazy" does. Ever hear the term "crazy like a fox" ? And do do know what it means ?
Think carefully now and dont put your foot in your mouth again. As for the boyo below, nobody comments after my posts because they aren't smart enough -or patient enough- to try and refute every point I make.
Of course I dont make it easy for them to do so, but that's not my point. My point is that I disagree with just about everything today and I have good reasons for doing so: I'd like to see all our children survive and prosper into the future -especially my own. Tom
oh this is a mistake, but what the hell. Lucky, please elaborate. Do I understand what?
"There's nothing like a bunch of white people discussing...black people."
No one discussing black people lucky. Discussing a issue that concerns black people. As stated by Obama.
Well, I'm not staying up waiting for Lucky to find someone to read this thread to him.
I put the quote from Obama up because he supported my point. The one I was making for about 1/2 this thread. Lucky's question, as per usual, makes no sense.
"There's nothing like a bunch of white people discussing...black people."
I know. Crazy the way those stupid white people marched with Dr King during the 60's. Those crazy union soldiers who went to war over slavery. The white congressmen and Senators who voted in civil rights. The idiot white people who donate money to United Negro College Fund, or who joined the NAACP. Lucky thinks it really wasn't any of those stupid white people's business discussing black people's issues. Apparently Lucky is joining the bandwagon of those who are denying that kids have to deal with the accusations of "acting white", and more importantly denying that white people can even discuss it.
So we can add racist to Lucky's resume.
Jeffrey says: "No one discussing black people lucky."
Are you for real?
Caption:
"That had better be your index finger pointing at me, you pasty ol' half-pint."
As I am 58, and I have an extensive list of accomplishments try on "res ipsa loguitur" for size
Apparently "learning Latin" wasn't among those accomplishments.
tc,
Res ipsa loquitur
"Jeffrey says: "No one discussing black people lucky."
Are you for real?"
Yes I am. What black people do you think were being discussed? Work on the reading comprehension.
jeff -- although things become confusing after the first 100 comments, los just might be referring to the subject of Ann's post
""There's always that doubt in the back of the minds of people of color... that you believe that somehow someone is better than you...""
Michelle Obama tries to explain why Barack Obama does not have more support from black Americans: "What we're dealing with in the black community is just the natural fear of possibility... I think that it's one of the legacies of racism and discrimination and oppression."
Caption:
"No one discussing black people lucky."
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