Although satellite television and video downloads have made the ban on commercial theaters all but moot, the announcement highlights the diminishing power of the kingdom’s conservative clerics. The grand mufti, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious authority, publicly called commercial films a source of “depravity” and opposed the opening of movie theaters as recently as a few months ago.I welcome the liberalization of Saudi Arabia, but I want to give the grand mufti his due: Commercial films are a source of depravity.
And opening the door to such changes raises suspenseful questions about how far they will go, beginning with the issue of what movies will be shown and how they may be censored.
December 11, 2017
"In the latest in a series of gestures toward modernization that would once have seemed improbable, Saudi Arabia announced on Monday..."
"... that it would allow commercial movie theaters to open for the first time in more than 35 years" (NYT).
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61 comments:
Make muftis grand again.
Atomic Blonde starts with a tit scene. What the heck was that about.
We want fighting and blowing stuff up.
Then there's a lesbian scene later if I remember right.
Then more fighting and blowing stuff up.
So, mixed reviews.
A good action series is Battlefield by TMG, WWII films and strategy. It needs more blowing stuff up and fighting though.
Hopefully, Roy Moore doesn't hear that movies are being watched in public. It's hard enough to get him elected now.
I welcome the liberalization of Saudi Arabia, but I want to give the grand mufti his due: Commercial films are a source of depravity.
That same thought was forming in my head before I got to the end of the post.
There are imitation WWII Battlefield flicks but they're more modern and sadz about civilian deaths.
Sounds like Montreal a few decades ago when the Catholic Church had a lot of authority over what played at movie houses and when. Maybe wasn't so bad given Hollywood.
@ Althouse:
You do realize that the Grand Mufti considers you to be a source of depravity......
Dang it, Ann already posted the best comment on the story in the OP. Only other thing to point out us the depravity tends to start with the creators of the product.
Good thing the King has food testers and someone else starts his car for him already. Those Grand Mufti types don't take to being out of the 16th century too well.
Ann says
Commercial films are a source of depravity
...
Any chance you could expand that to a paragraph?
I offhand don't see movies as a source of depravity. The worst they can be is boring.
Lefty points can be so awful that nothing in the film applies to real life and then you've got nothing.
But usually there are bits here and there that apply and those are the good points.
Hollywood is just real life larger than life.
Anti-depravity discriminates against the crippled.
Commercial films are a source of depravity.
Well, no, films are just fake pictures and fake dialog and fake sounds, but the depictions, apparently, are quite harmless and perhaps beneficial.
If Everything Is Getting Better, Why Do We Remain So Pessimistic?
Seriously, this is "follow the white rabbit" level stuff. Massive changes are happening here among Saudi owned pols, and among alliances in the Levant, ever since the House of Saud figured out that the USA now has more oil to pump than they do.
It's like watching Germans suddenly act nice towards Western Civilization values after Patton's Third Army reached the Rhine River.
Judith Curry has a long if unreadable piece on the troubles of women in science
https://judithcurry.com/2017/12/10/girls-rules/
There ought to be one by an ugly woman for balance.
I welcome the liberalization of Saudi Arabia, but I want to give the grand mufti his due: Commercial films are a source of depravity.
Agree. This cannot end well.
"Commercial films are a source of depravity." I wouldn't know first-hand, not having seen any in many years. Correction: I watched Titanic on a plane. Source of hilarity, not depravity. Of course, we can argue about whether they are source or consequence, responding to demand from a public depraved by the prior transvaluation of values.
But let's assume the thesis is correct: how will we Reckon with it? When did the depravity start, who promoted it, and how did esthetic transvaluation contribute to moral depravity?
Human beings are sources of depravity. Commercial films are bait to deprive the depraved of money.
King Faisal could not be reached to comment on modernization.
He was assassinated in 1975 for doing the same thing.
It was during this period as head of the Saudi government that Prince Faisal, though still not king, established his reputation as a reforming and modernizing figure.[1] He introduced education for women and girls despite the consternation of many conservatives in the religious establishment. To appease the objectors he allowed the female educational curriculum to be written and overseen by members of the religious leadership, a policy which lasted long after his death.
In 1963 Prince Faisal established the country's first television station, though actual broadcasts would not begin for another two years.[26] As with many of his other policies, the move aroused strong objections from the religious and conservative sections of the country. Faisal assured them, however, that Islamic principles of modesty would be strictly observed, and made sure that the broadcasts contained a large amount of religious programming.
Then:
On 25 March 1975 King Faisal was shot point-blank and killed by his half-brother's son, Faisal bin Musaid, who had just come back from the United States. The murder occurred at a majlis (literally 'a place for sitting'), an event where the king or leader opens up his residence to the citizens to enter and petition the king.[65]
In the waiting room, Prince Faisal talked to Kuwaiti representatives who were also waiting to meet King Faisal.[66] When the Prince went to embrace him, King Faisal leaned to kiss his nephew in accordance with Saudi custom. At that instant, Prince Faisal took out a pistol and shot him.
We'll see how this one goes.
The middle eastern people are resentful of the USA's heroic films like High Noon, Giant, How the West Was Won. It's like they refuse to believe them. After all Mohammed and his fake god are proclaimed every day 5 times as being the best of Everything. But Trump is reintroducing the world to Calvinist Reform Christianity's strength.
To be fair to the Grand Mufti, his opinion is much older than Islam. Plato laid out the case comprehensively - against "poets", but that should be interpreted broadly.
Why everyone is pessimistic is an easy question.
Long life and full bellies, yes, but is this what we really want?
Many metrics of well-being do not really measure what seems to be hard-coded human desiderata.
Humanity, especially that portion that benefits most from modern societies and systems, is a well-fed animal in a zoo.
The other metric to consider is the more fundamental one, the birthrate. The well-fed animals are in an unnatural environment, and severely stressed, and don't breed.
buwaya;
At one time, Islamic society respected it's poets.
Progress! Our 16th century friends are quietly moving into the 17th century.......
Yes it did; Arabic poetry was a pre-Islamic art.
Islam of the modern sort turned against it in its rationalization of pre-Islamic traditions. I.e., modernity made the education in a "pure" legalistic, quality-controlled Islam possible.
One interesting change - it used to be typical to erect tombs, monuments to revered Islamic figures. There are such tombs of Muslim "saints" all over. But modern by the book Islam sees these as pagan/Christian corruptions, and activists have been busy removing them.
Gahrie said...
@ Althouse:
You do realize that the Grand Mufti considers you to be a source of depravity......
Man, that Grand Mufti is on a roll...
Rather than Hollywood product, the Saudis might prefer Bollywood films.
Second try
Third try
This whole modernization thing will prove a pivot point for the Muslim world [at least for the Sunni Muslim world]. Will the new Saudi King succeed or will he be dispatched like other modernizers? Not just Faisal but Sadat.
Are the Saudis gonna allow Drive-in Theaters with Jerry Lewis comedies? That would still be a step in the right social direction.
I am not holding my breath for much modernization, beyond mere "gestures." The Kingdom is aware that paying lip service to "modernization" or "reform" is necessary window dressing for its western backers. But opposition to modernization does not just come from "conservative clerics" but from a rather conservative population. Custodianship of the two mosques is a major source of legitimacy for the royal family.
The reason that the Saudis are letting women drive, and the opening of movie theaters is because of Trump. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
J.Farmer: Credit where due. I agree that the Saudi population is not exactly clamoring for Hollywood.
@AllenS:
The reason that the Saudis are letting women drive, and the opening of movie theaters is because of Trump. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
How do you figure that?
Divergence, possibly. Perhaps a proper evaluation of principles.
late 14c., "corrupt, lead astray, pervert," from Old French depraver (14c.) or directly from Latin depravare "distort, disfigure;" figuratively "to pervert, seduce, corrupt," from de- "completely" (see de-) + pravus "crooked." Related: Depraved; depraving.
deprave-ity
Positive or negative progress? Time will tell.
I agree that the Saudi population is not exactly clamoring for Hollywood.
Public and private are two very different things. In private, pampered Arabs (not just Saudis but Emiratis and others) have an insatiable desire for Western consumer goods and culture. Mr. Pants is in the UAE at the moment and reported with amusement seeing an Emirati in strict traditional dress in a private lounge in the hotel, drinking a beer, watching a Marvel movie on a huge TV and being waited on by half a dozen uniformed servants.
Remember that weird tale of the Belgian Isis wife whose laptop was seized and upon examination revealed that she spent all of her time watching Hollywood movies and porn?
@I Have Misplaced My Pants:
Public and private are two very different things.
I agree completely that there is a big difference between public statements and private behavior among the elites. Part of the corrupt bargain the al Saud family has with the clerical leadership is that they will continue to support Salafism in exchange for clerics looking the other way in regards to the often ostentatious, Western lifestyles of the many Saudi princelings.
The reason that the Saudis are letting women drive, and the opening of movie theaters is because of Trump. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
How do you figure that?
I kind of agree. Trump is the singularity in world affairs right now.
Hillary promised to stop fracking and pipelines, Business as usual squared.
The Israelis would continued to be excluded from polite society as ordained by Obama's mentor Rashid Khlaidi.
Nothing would change, Corruption would rule. Nobody would interrupt the pipeline of retired State Dept bureaucrats to the Saudi payroll.
The thing would eventually come to an end but no one s=could predict,
Trump has interrupted that narrative and I don't think the Deep State will be able to go back to status quo ante, even if it kills him or sets up an impeachment that drags on for years,
It is the old story of creative destruction,
Sorry for all the typos but the font is pretty small on my screen.
The Saudis have to change, the reformist princesses must see the writing on the wall. The planned global phase-out of fossil fuels, the competition from fracking and the rising military power of Iran are heading to a bad end for the sand ticks. They have to join the modern world and get ahead of the tidal wave or be swallowed up by rapid evolution.
“Seriously, this is "follow the white rabbit" level stuff. Massive changes are happening here among Saudi owned pols, and among alliances in the Levant, ever since the House of Saud figured out that the USA now has more oil to pump than they do.
It's like watching Germans suddenly act nice towards Western Civilization values after Patton's Third Army reached the Rhine River.”
Maybe not as cynical as Tradguy but I do agree that it appears that the country is undergoing massive changes. The Ritz Carlton is/was apparently being used as a royal prison for some of the princes. One thing that appears to maybe happening is the severing of Saudi money from terrorism. And, maybe (re)approachent with Israel. Part of it may be Trump, but also a realization that their biggest foe right now is Iran and their Shiite version of Islam - as is probably also the case for Israel.
@Michael K:
I kind of agree. Trump is the singularity in world affairs right now.
Nothing you wrote supports the statement by AllenS that "The reason that the Saudis are letting women drive, and the opening of movie theaters is because of Trump. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise."
For starters, the announcement about women being permitted to drive was made before Trump was ever president.
@Howard:
They have to join the modern world and get ahead of the tidal wave or be swallowed up by rapid evolution.
Since 1970, Saudi Arabia has produced five-year development plans, up to and including one as recently as 2015. Every single one had called for diversification from the oil industry and modernization. Plus, the Kingdom is spending upwards of $50 billion on refinery and petrochemical production facilities.
@Bruce Hayden:
One thing that appears to maybe happening is the severing of Saudi money from terrorism.
What is the evidence for this? The Saudis have been deeply supportive of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in its fight against Yemen. Saudi Arabia has also long supported Al-Nusra Front and Lashkar-e-Taiba.
Bruce opines: Part of it may be Trump, but also a realization that their biggest foe right now is Iran and their Shiite version of Islam - as is probably also the case for Israel.
Yes. The Saudis [or at least Salman] want the US on their side against the Shiites. Not that we're really on either side but Trump is smart enough to know how to play that hand. They need us more than we need them and they know they have to at least pay lip service to modernization and increased tolerance.
@mockturtle:
They need us more than we need them and they know they have to at least pay lip service to modernization and increased tolerance.
But the Saudis have been paying "lip service to modernization and increased tolerance" for over 50 years now. They also pay "lip service" to anti-terrorism, while funding and providing logistical support to numerous radical Salafist groups. So I am not so sure why we should be excited about "lip service."
Who's excited, Farmer? Not I.
So, framer, the reality of fracking and the promise by Hillary to block it had nothing to do with Saudi angst ?
You don't think they know they are in economic trouble and may be they had better modernize like they should have in 1975?
The Grand Mufti also said that the free mixing of the sexes leads to increased fornication and adultery. He was right. But he said it as if it was a bad thing.
J. Farmer uses "conservative" to describe Islamic extremists in Saudi Arabia, who want clerics to have complete control over everyday life.
In the former USSR, the "conservatives" are the old timers wanting a return to communism and an all powerful state that regulates every transaction.
Here, in the US, "conservatives" are the ones who want a much more limited, less powerful government and much greater individual freedom.
Isn't it funny how "conservatives" covers such completely opposite ideologies?
Until you realize it's just lefty shorthand for "the side you are not supposed to like".
Putin, An atheist who dreams of a return to communism: Conservative.
Saudi princes, who demand all of Saudi society be subservient God's will express through the Koran: Conservative
DanTheMan: A Christian who wants less government spending, and doesn't really care who you marry. "Conservative"
Yep, the three of us have so much in common, that's what makes us all "conservatives"
The kingdom is still a 'mystery inside a riddle inside an enigma hence some of the fake nwnews spun to carlos slims and to Al jazeeras new outlet middle east eye.
There was an interesting little novel by a former recon marine, Anderson harp, retribution set a few years ago during a succession crisis not unlike the one we saw with abdullah passing the villain is a Arabian businessman of sorts with designs on central Asia and a more effective way of achieving success than binladin, he carries the surname of a real life terrorist financier, he mentions prince talal by name and makes some interesting conjecture.
Re events in balkans as well aspects of Abe nidal's organization three is an even a character that resembles general petraeus. The hero is a former anglico crew chief much like himself, tasked to infiltrate the terror masterminds organization.
@Michael K:
So, framer, the reality of fracking and the promise by Hillary to block it had nothing to do with Saudi angst ?
You don't think they know they are in economic trouble and may be they had better modernize like they should have in 1975?
I do not doubt that the Saudi regime believes it needs to economically modernize in order to stay competitive. What I am expressing doubt in is its ability to actually accomplish this. The regime has recognized this need since at least the early 1970s but has made little to no progress on this front. I do not think the signs for the future are promising. Salman's reign has been marked by one blunder after another. I see no reason to have confidence in the regime going forward.
@DanTheMan:
Isn't it funny how "conservatives" covers such completely opposite ideologies?
Until you realize it's just lefty shorthand for "the side you are not supposed to like".
Actually, it clarifies matter greatly if you free yourself from the contemporary American definition. A lot of what are called "conservative" values in American history would have been labeled "classically liberal" in the past. Here is the Dictionary.com definition for the word "conservative:"
holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.
In this context, it is perfectly acceptable (and accurate) to describe the Putin regime in Russia and the clerical establishment in Saudi Arabia as "conservative." It describes more of a disposition than a set of related policy aims. From my perspective, most regimes are inherently conservative to one degree or another. Revolutionary regimes have a way of burning themselves out rather quickly. America is a bit unique in that regard. It is easily the most revolutionary power in the world today. In Robert Kagan's terrific essay Neocon Nation: Neoconservatism, c. 1776, he correctly identifies that one of the characteristics of the so called "neoconservative" foreign policy is how completely un-conservative it is.
" What I am expressing doubt in is its ability to actually accomplish this."
I don't disagree but I am puzzled by your insistence that Trump's election had no effect on this.
You don't think Hillary would have been a guarantee of no changes ?
No fracking.
No pipelines, from Canadian tar sands ?
Is this just a reflexive refusal to see anything positive about Trump ?
The regime is very brittle, even more than in 1975, although one wonders sans watergate would king faisal have prevailed.
@Michael K:
I don't disagree but I am puzzled by your insistence that Trump's election had no effect on this.
Since these same modernization programs were announced and implemented years before Trump was even a candidate, let alone the President, I don't think it is very puzzling to view his election as having either a minimal. The Saudis have been attempting to diversity their economy for more than 50 years with little to nothing to show for it. And the most consistent characteristic of the current Saudi regime is its incompetence, from the execution of Nimr al-Nimr to the Mina stampede to its blundering in Yemen.
It is also worth remembering that the "modernization" the kingdom speaks of is by and large economic modernization with small loosening of social controls. As China and Singapore demonstrate, it is possible to economically modernize and remain an authoritarian one-party state.
Is this just a reflexive refusal to see anything positive about Trump ?
That is not how I judge events. I am more than happy to give Trump credit when he does things that I like (e.g. immigration reform), and I criticize him when he does things I dislike. I said from the beginning that while I voted for Trump, foreign policy was the area I was most worried about.
A radical shia activist like macdidsi in the 70s, isn't often dispateced. The stampedes at the hadj are safely too common, and there have been iteraTions of the Yemeni civil war since the 60s.
He sees himself as a czar, and what us that but a warlord allied to the church I. Point of fact.
If prince salman had been educated in the west, he might have seen himself akin to a renaissance prince, but the kingdom is more like the old czarist regime.
Trump.
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