August 13, 2017

What do we know about James Alex Fields Jr.?

I'll link to the Google news search on his name. He's been arrested and accused of driving the car that drove into a crowd of people on the street in Charlottesville yesterday. I can see that he's from Ohio.

NPR has a quote from his mother:
"I thought it had something to do with Trump. Trump's not a white supremacist," said Bloom, who became visibly upset as she learned of the injuries and deaths at the rally.

"He had an African-American friend so ...," she said before her voice trailed off. She added that she'd be surprised if her son's views were that far right, according to the AP.
NPR writes "she knew he was attending a rally in Virginia" but "didn't know it was a white supremacist rally." Notice the assumption that it's simply a fact that it was "a white supremacist rally." I'm not sure that's established. I don't think you can assume that everyone who attended that rally has a "white supremacist" ideology, but I think there's a big effort right now to lump the entire alt-right into that category. I think it's better to treat people as individuals and not throw them into stereotypes (especially if the stereotypes are going to be big and crude). To be carefully factually accurate, you shouldn't assume that a person from out of town who is driving a car is attending the rally.

More from NPR:
In a photo posted to Twitter by the Anti-Defamation League and reported by BuzzFeed, a man who appears to be Fields Jr. can be seen brandishing a black shield handed out by the self-proclaimed fascist group Vanguard America.
Are these 2 pictures of the same man?



I don't know. The second picture seems to have a sharply over-shaved space between the eyebrows. In the first picture, it's hard to see past the sunglasses, but the eyebrows may be more natural. The hair in photo #1 seems more squared off . The ears seem closer to the head in photo #2. Would he really have changed shirts? And don't men usually stick to one style of undershirt and not switch between a high and low necklines?

Those black shields may make people look like they're in the same group, but if the shields were being "handed out," then any lost soul might end up carrying something without knowing what the group that handed it out says it means. And it's just stupid cardboard held in a hand. Is "brandishing" really a sensibly journalistic word?

Plainly, no. To "brandish" is "To flourish, wave about (a sword, spear, dart, club, or other manual weapon) by way of threat or display, or in preparation for action" (OED). Even if it were a real shield and not a cardboard "mock up," a shield is not a weapon.

Let's carefully collect and examine evidence about James Alex Fields Jr. and about what happened in Charlottesville on Saturday. If you hate violence and hatred, don't take the kinds of mental shortcuts that are the machinery of violence and hatred. Let's be better than that.

ADDED: If the crowd had been right wing and the driver of the car could be connected to the left, I think the media would be imposing the mental illness template as quickly as it could.

343 comments:

1 – 200 of 343   Newer›   Newest»
Earnest Prole said...

Meh. Hair cut short on the sides and longer on top has been a great look since, what, 1933?

Michael K said...

The left has got their "Great White Defendant" to quote Tom Wolfe.

The guy may have deliberately tried to run over those protestors who were blocking the street.

As I posted yesterday, if you block traffic as a protest, legally you are on your own although a deliberate attempt to harm the protestors is not the same as a motorist trying to escape a mob.

whitney said...

Let's be better than that? That ship has sailed

Gospace said...

One thing I've read about him that says a lot. His Army career was 4 months long. Means there's something not right about him. What's not right we don't know. Didn't have a characterizatiin of his discharge, which would tell more.

Nyamujal said...

"Let's carefully collect and examine evidence about James Alex Fields Jr. and about what happened in Charlottesville on Saturday. If you hate violence and hatred, don't take the kinds of mental shortcuts that are the machinery of violence and hatred. Let's be better than that.
"
Are you usually this careful when violence is committed by Antifa types?

Etienne said...

Why do they always include the middle names of mass murderers?

Craig said...

1) "Would he really have changed shirts? And don't men usually stick to one style of undershirt and not switch between a high and low necklines?"

---

You might think that the jailers invited him to change shirts... Notice the befitting outerwear.

***

2) "Those black shields may make people look like they're in the same group, but if the shields were being 'handed out,' then any lost soul might end up carrying something without knowing what the group that handed it out says it means. And it's just stupid cardboard held in a hand. Is 'brandishing' really a sensibly journalistic word?

Plainly, no. To 'brandish' is to 'To flourish, wave about (a sword, spear, dart, club, or other manual weapon) by way of threat or display, or in preparation for action' (OED). Even if it were a real shield and not a cardboard 'mock up,' a shield is not a weapon.

---

I don't have OED access right now, but even if you're quoting the entirety of the relevant OED portions correctly, the OED is just one reporter, and every other reporter I look at suggests this is a perfectly fitting usage. I see things like, "Wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement" and "1: to shake or wave (something, such as a weapon) menacingly brandished a knife at them 2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner brandishing her intellect." So the standing on idiosyncratic, foreign authority is not convincing argument here--it's a kind of mental shortcut.

Grumpy Grandpa said...

Althouse, thank you for your great defense of this wrongfully accused young man. This crowd of anti-American scum attack him and he defended himself. Maybe they will stay home next time.

rhhardin said...

Just resist the news. It's all a business to get you to watch.

10,000 Americans died yesterday (round numbers), and this one event was designed to attract all the attention.

Even Scott Adams says it's a sport and entertainment, though he doesn't go far enough to say that's what the news biz is.

I do object to the witness report that the police helicopter stalled. Engine quit and too low to autogyro.

Laslo Spatula said...

The mouth looks very similar in both photos: small, slightly downturned corners, prominent indentation below the lower lip.

But maybe all White Supremacists have mouths like that.

I am Laslo.

Nyamujal said...

"10,000 Americans died yesterday (round numbers), and this one event was designed to attract all the attention.
"
The news shouldn't cover any terrorist attacks then. After all you have a greater chance of dying in a car accident than in a terrorist attack.

@Grumpy Grandpa

Pass along the blunt man, you're tripping balls.

JAORE said...

NPR writes "she knew he was attending a rally in Virginia" but didn't "didn't know it was a white supremacist rally." Notice the assumption that it's simply a fact that it was "a white supremacist rally." I'm not sure that's established. I don't think you can assume that everyone who attended that rally has a "white supremacist"

That is,IMO, obviously true. But, based on the media reports from the event, you are in a small group swimming upstream against the meme.

Sadly, after each of these type events bothleft and right rush to say, "He's yours!"

Mutaman said...

"Notice the assumption that it's simply a fact that it was "a white supremacist rally." I'm not sure that's established."

http://images.jpost.com/image/upload/t_Article2016_ControlFaceDetect/390754

https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/components/video/201707/f_la_kkk_rally_170708.nbcnews-ux-1080-600.jpg

What would it take to establish it in your mind professor?

Ann Althouse said...

"Are you usually this careful when violence is committed by Antifa types?"

Why don't you use the archive of this blog, which is right there to be searched, and find evidence? That is, why don't you be careful about evidence before you stir up suspicion as a way of doing political speech? If you actually care about evidence, show us. My speech -- 14 years of it -- is right here to be seen. It's no secret.

Nyamujal said...

@Grumpy

Oooh, I get the sarcasm now.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/022/138/reece.JPG

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Media completely ignores all leftwing violence.

See Venezuela too.

Ann Althouse said...

Hint for searching my archive to test my fairness. The relevant posts will have the tag "protest." There are about 500 posts in the archive. You could read them and test them. I wonder if you could do that fairly.

Ann Althouse said...

"Let's be better than that? That ship has sailed."

Yes, but you are on that ship. It's the SS Althouse... on a 14-year tour.

rhhardin said...

The news shouldn't cover any terrorist attacks then. After all you have a greater chance of dying in a car accident than in a terrorist attack.

That's right. It only produces another terrorist attack, as the reporters well know.

The news is the point for both terrorists and media. It's a business partnership.

Terrorist attacks should be covered in the right context, namely that it doesn't matter a hill of beans militarily or riskwise, and here's what else happened in other news.

No eyeballs in that.

HT said...

That's his prison uniform, not a voluntary change of shirts!!!!

rhhardin said...

Usually at the end of summer shark attacks are getting the coverage.

Birkel said...

A real shield is also a weapon.

HT said...

The vanguard or whatever name that outfit has, is saying he's not a member and they can't control who gets one of their shields. I said in a previous post that his dad was killed by a drunk driver and his mother is a paraplegic.

Lem said...

My honest reaction to news of people driving thru street blocking protests is good for them. I have zero sympathy for protesters. And if my callous cold harted sentiment is not alone on this, I suspect more people will do this, attempt to drive thru these spontaneous grassroot gatherings.

Where does this sentiment come from?

Long hours of work I suppose.

I tweeted something about the real little reported numbers of unemployed Americans and Pinochios Kessler answered back that these were people who didn't want to work. So there.

rhhardin said...

One of Scott Adams's commenters said they were civil war reenactors.

This guy was anachronistic, weaponwise.

Craig said...

This:

"Are you usually this careful when violence is committed by Antifa types?"

Why don't you use the archive of this blog, which is right there to be searched, and find evidence? That is, why don't you be careful about evidence before you stir up suspicion as a way of doing political speech? If you actually care about evidence, show us. My speech -- 14 years of it -- is right here to be seen. It's no secret.


is in rhetorical tension with this:

ADDED: If the crowd had been right wing and the driver of the car could be connected to the left, I think the media would be imposing the mental illness template as quickly as it could.

You might reasonably think the same sort of gestalt, experienced impression that could warrant the political speech of the ADDED bit grounds the former bit. Of course, you might assume otherwise if you don't want the two to be related, but that seems to be a kind of cruel mental shortcut.

rhhardin said...

What's fair is that whatever draws the most eyeballs is the truth.

Mutaman said...


Remember Ann's friend Glenn Reynolds?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHEkjRIUQAAMdaL.jpg:large

HT said...

Even Scott Adams says it's a sport and entertainment, though he doesn't go far enough to say that's what the news biz is.

And he's wrong. He's saying it's not political, and that's not true. By his standard, the Civil War was nothing more than a mega-hit in the theater. The energies need to be turned into a sport (controlled fighting), but it's not that now.

Bay Area Guy said...

He's 20 years old. Either he's in college, possbly junior college, or working at a menial jpb or living at home.

It kinda proves the opposite point - that the White Supremecist, Neo-Nazis are more - as a political/cultural movement - is practically non-existent.

Back to the Robert E. Lee statue: can folks oppose its removal without being called a racist, white Supremecist, Neo-Nazi?

And, even if there is a small remnant of ex-Klansmen or Neo-Nazi goofballs are they allowed to peacefully assemble or organize, despite their warped views?



Ralph L said...

Black and white is the old Orange.

One can have AA friends and still hate AA-affirmative action.

Meade said...

"After all you have a greater chance of dying in a car accident than in a terrorist attack."

You even have a greater chance of dying from a domestic dog attack. Especially if you're under 10. Sorry to racially profile but — pit bulls, siberian huskies, and rottweilers top the list.

David Begley said...

"I think it's better to treat people as individuals and not throw them into stereotypes (especially if the stereotypes are going to be big and crude)."

And this is contrary to the identity politics of the Democrat party and the standard operating principle of the MSM.

Lyle said...

This is terrorism and white supremacist/nationalist terrorism... but, if these bigoted, fringe folks were allowed to protest peacefully, I don't think this violence happens.

Mutaman said...

"You might reasonably think the same sort of gestalt, experienced impression that could warrant the political speech of the ADDED bit grounds the former bit. Of course, you might assume otherwise if you don't want the two to be related, but that seems to be a kind of cruel mental shortcut."

Hey Craig:

Want to translate this into English?

rhhardin said...

He's saying it's not political, and that's not true.

No, the politics are completely parasitic on the entertainment. They're free-riding.

The business of news drives everything and they need audience.

Politicians need audience. They follow along.

What some politician wants has no effect on the media. The pol has to go with them, not vice versa.

Unknown said...

BREAKING NEWS: "Only 8 months into the Trump Presidency we are on the brink of nuclear war and Nazis are in streets of an American city. Seems about right" (Twitter)

HT said...

"This is terrorism and white supremacist/nationalist terrorism... but, if these bigoted, fringe folks were allowed to protest peacefully, I don't think this violence happens."

I tend not to think so either, but there's no way to know what else might have transpired. They may have packed up and gone home peacefully or they may have been itching for a fight and tried to find it.

Gospace said...

http://redstatewatcher.com/article.asp?id=89570
Then there's this, true or not, something no one would ever see pre-internet days. There really is no doubt that the "alt-right", or whatever label you want to place on them, had a valud permit to gather. There is also no doubt that the Democrat Party supported anti-fa showed up prepared to initiate violence. The "alt-right" is not supported or backed by Republicans. So only one of the two major political parties is in any way at all responsible for the violence in Charlottesville- the Democrat Party.

rhhardin said...

You even have a greater chance of dying from a domestic dog attack. Especially if you're under 10. Sorry to racially profile but — pit bulls, siberian huskies, and rottweilers top the list.

Big strong dogs top the list for fatalities, not bites. I think the cocker spaniel is the champion biter, if they still exist. I don't think it's a popular breed anymore.

Lewis Wetzel said...

"I don't think you can assume that everyone who attended that rally has a "white supremacist" ideology, but I think there's a big effort right now to lump the entire alt-right into that category."
"Right" is an anti-ideology. You can find people on the Right who are anti-free market and pro open borders. The Left enforces a rigid orthodoxy and is quick to identify and reject individuals who do not adhere to that orthodoxy.

roesch/voltaire said...

Videos of the incident do not show a driver trying to escape the counter protestors but rather someone who was waiting at the spot before gunning the engine and ramming into the crowd, which was retreating from the scene.

Ralph L said...

I said in a previous post that his dad was killed by a drunk driver and his mother is a paraplegic.
That could be why he left the Army, or the Army left him.
What they call on "Criminal Minds" a stressor.

HT said...

Link, r/v?

Meade said...

Mutaman said...

"Remember Ann's friend Glenn Reynolds?"

Remember Reginald Denny?

Nyamujal said...

"Hint for searching my archive to test my fairness. The relevant posts will have the tag "protest." There are about 500 posts in the archive. You could read them and test them. I wonder if you could do that fairly."

Fair enough. I don't see an "Antifa" tag BTW.

Chris N said...

It's been a matter of time before something like this happened. Such tensions are always there, but if you incentivize making them front and center, political (often exploiting them), and favor some groups over others in media coverage, value judgment and even application of law, well watch out.

After seeing the video, I was imagining a male, possibly black and sympathetic to anti-white racial nationalist causes, or possibly white and sympathetic to pro-white nationalist causes (more likely white given the facts once I found them out...I didn't know which group was which).

I would think 18-25 or so, but wouldn't have been surprised in a tail up to 60.

Key traits: An individual(s) with a lot of sense of grievance, injustice, helplessness and anger, who desperately needs to belong to something bigger and who will take the ideas very personally. Probably a pretty pathetic guy with not much going well in life willing to act out and transmute and the feelings and ideas into murder.

Very sad and very unnnecessary. A failure for all of us really, our institutions and civic life.

As for NPR, I suspect many are committed to radical ideas that never really acknowledge the authority of our institutions and civic life, unless they fit into NPR's guiding ideals and ideologies.

Mutaman said...

"You even have a greater chance of dying from a domestic dog attack. Especially if you're under 10. Sorry to racially profile but — pit bulls, siberian huskies, and rottweilers top the list."


For some reason i missed Meade's humor the last time there was domestic terror involving Islam. I guess he was busy working on those days.



Unknown said...

BREAKING NEWS: "Three people were killed and 19 others were injured during a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va." (CNN)

ALL Trumpers = Neo Nazi's + White Nantionalists.

Go on, just admit it loudly - you know you want to.

rhhardin said...

You're also more likely to be bitten by a dog if you're male.

For most, that just means learning not to jump at a dog and poke your finger in his eye.

Mutaman said...

"Remember Reginald Denny? "

Whataboutism is a propaganda technique formerly used by the Soviet Union in its dealings with the Western world, and subsequently used as a form of propaganda in post-Soviet Russia. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.
Wiki

Michael K said...

"Didn't have a characterizatiin of his discharge, which would tell more."

That is the best comment so far. A discharge at 4 months is either an injury in basic or an "unsuitable" discharge and that will tell a lot.

I see these from time to time and the person is trying to get back in. They cannot even get an interview without a waiver from the service.

Psychiatric problems is the most common cause of :unsuitable" discharges.


MayBee said...

We are hearing so little about the "counter- protesters", who are the Anti-Fa as far as I can tell. Which means violence follows them wherever they go, but criticism and denunciation from leftist politicians do not.

Now, obviously, the car through the crowd is a despicable act of murder/attempted murder.
But I want to hear more about the clashes before that, too.
I know the left and the media are too busy talking about Trump's statement, because it has been their goal to tie him to the White Supremacist movement from the get go. All Republicans, really. Mitt Romney was racist too. Mormons didn't accept blacks, you know.

But Trump not denouncing the original protest has become *the* story now. Whereas I think the people who travel the country and the world (thinking of Hamburg, now) setting fires and disrupting businesses also deserve criticism. And I'm not seeing calls for that.
Anyone pretending the way this story is being covered *isnt* to turn Trump into a White Supremacist is doing the same thing as those who insisted on saying "Barack Hussein Obama".
I think both the White Nationalists and the Anti-Fa are equally bad for our country. Who here disagrees?

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"ADDED: If the crowd had been right wing and the driver of the car could be connected to the left, I think the media would be imposing the mental illness template as quickly as it could."

Sometimes big crude stereotyping isn't enough. Then, ya don't simply comment on reality based on your bias. Ya gotta makeup an imaginary world that is based on your big crude stereotyping.

Funny stuff.

HT said...

Mental illness template.

Where to start - one, they did that with Jared Loughner, who shot the congresswoman from Az. (who's Democratic, BTW). Two, did they do that with the guy who recently shot those members of Congress?

Lyle said...

HT,

True. This guy may have intended it all along.

Bay Area Guy said...

1. It is terrible to be a racist.

2. It is equally terrible to falsely accuse someone of racism.

In modern day America, there are many more people doing 2, than doing 1.

Meade said...

"Big strong dogs top the list for fatalities, not bites."

Beware of the big strong dog. Especially the one trained to rip, maul, crush, tear, and mangle.

Ralph L said...

The early photos showed many of the protesters carrying long guns, but I've heard no reports of "gun violence."

Both sides looked very white.
Hipsters v. Hicks

MayBee said...

Two of the people killed were in the police chopper, right? I think it's weird that number is being added to the rally total. Why is that? Isn't it bad enough already?

Chris Arabia said...

The middle name thing is (at least in part) because the caption in a criminal complaint typically has the middle name; this is a good way to minimize mistaken perceptions, i.e. JOHN MICHAEL SMITH is an easy way to be much more specific than JOHN SMITH. Of course, I don't recall JOHN HINCKLEY being described as JOHN WARNOCK HINCKLEY (though often as JOHN HINCKLEY Jr.) but that was DC not VA.

Chuck Mayhew said...

So, his Mom begins to say that Trump is not a White Supremacist and, at that point, the video is interrupted. Wonder why? Or do I wonder why?

Ann Althouse said...

"You might think that the jailers invited him to change shirts... Notice the befitting outerwear."

You think it's that old-time striped prison wear?

Ann Althouse said...

"The mouth looks very similar in both photos: small, slightly downturned corners, prominent indentation below the lower lip. But maybe all White Supremacists have mouths like that."

It's a crisply articulated outline to a small mouth. You noticed the underside of the lip, and I'm noticing the upper side, the sharp philtrum. It made me think of Andrew Breitbart.

Ann Althouse said...

"I don't have OED access right now, but even if you're quoting the entirety of the relevant OED portions correctly, the OED is just one reporter, and every other reporter I look at suggests this is a perfectly fitting usage. I see things like, "Wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement" and "1: to shake or wave (something, such as a weapon) menacingly brandished a knife at them 2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner brandishing her intellect." So the standing on idiosyncratic, foreign authority is not convincing argument here--it's a kind of mental shortcut."

Well, of course, just about any word that expresses something concrete can also be used figuratively. The OED has a section on "brandish" used figuratively, with examples:

1649 Milton Tenure of Kings 2 Laws which they so impotently brandish against others.
a1764 R. Lloyd Familiar Lett. Rhimes in Wks. (1774) II. 78 Your eyes that brandish burning darts.
1847 J. Martineau Endeavours Christian Life II. x. 163 Brandishing the threat of infliction.

Notice that the idea still needs to be that the thing that is brandished is a weapon. My observation is that a shield is not a weapon. It's the opposite. It could be repurposed as a weapon if you lifted it up and moved it with a gesture that made people feel that you were going to hit them with it, but the normal way a shield is held is the opposite of brandishing.

If they couldn't say he was threatening to hit people with his shield, they shouldn't say he was "brandishing" it. Journalists should be especially careful about using figurative language. Sometimes they are lazy about language and are just carelessly groping for different words that seem colorful. That's bad writing even if it isn't slanting in some particular direction.

Ann Althouse said...

""Notice the assumption that it's simply a fact that it was "a white supremacist rally." I'm not sure that's established." What would it take to establish it in your mind professor?"

More than a framed shot of a couple dozen people within a crowd of (what I hear was) thousands. Here's related question that comes to my mind. Sometimes you have a parade, maybe a St. Patrick's Day Parade, and a gay rights group wanted to have one float in the parade and is told no. Do you think the parade organization is right to exclude them on the ground that it makes the whole parade seem to be pro-gay rights? Or do you think the gay rights float only speaks for that float and the rest of the parade is not having its message changed?

HT said...

But I want to hear more about the clashes before that, too. I do too and there is video here and there, like the guy using a can of spray, lighting it on fire and aiming it at a white nationalist protester. Then there are fights, but it's hard to see if there was provocation. There should be a full airing, agreed.

Michael K said...

"Videos of the incident do not show a driver trying to escape the counter protestors but rather "

Liar.

Video shows the car rear ending the last of a row of cars caught in the mob. If you were deliberately going to run down protestors why would you do so when there were cars in front of you, not people?

The injuries were cause by shoving the car in front into people and maybe when he tried to escape by backing up.

Michael said...

Some years ago, with the help of the ACLU, the KKK was able to stage a march in the largely Jewish community of Skokie ILL. The march took place. The KKK was ignored. It was a victory for free speech, humiliation for the KKK and a quiet triumph for the Jews of Skokie ILL. We live in a different universe today. How did the Jews of Skokie survive without the Antifa to fight off the KKK? How did the Jews of Skokie survive the onslaught of the anti-Semitic KKK?

Why won't the Democrats condemn the Antifa? Why is there always silence from the left on the violent Antifa?

Meade said...

"Whataboutism is a propaganda technique formerly used by the Soviet Union in its dealings with the Western world, and subsequently used as a form of propaganda in post-Soviet Russia."

So is the technique known as smearing.

Angel-Dyne said...

I don't think you can assume that everyone who attended that rally has a "white supremacist" ideology, but I think there's a big effort right now to lump the entire alt-right into that category. I think it's better to treat people as individuals and not throw them into stereotypes (especially if the stereotypes are going to be big and crude).

How tiki-torch white nationalism fits into the alt-right.

HT said...

"You think it's that old-time striped prison wear? "

Come on. Just google image Charlottesville mugshot.

buwaya said...

I got a very different impression of the rally membership.
Unlike the old KKK and Nazi lot, these people were on the whole far more normal, solid citizen types. They look like mo st of the people I have worked with through my US career.

They were also not, for the most part, hiding their identities.

And there certainly were more of them there than there ever have been.

How many people can participate in a movement before it stops being marginal?

The rhetorical approach of all the media and politicians is also extremely counterproductive. Its the old better hung for a sheep than a lamb thing - might as well be a Nazi anyway, if one is to be hated regardless.

Michael K said...

Somebody pointed out that his father was killed and that could also be a reason for an early discharge.

I had not seen that.

HT said...

How did the Jews of Skokie survive

of course they survived. But ask them how or if they have dealt with it. That is, if you really care. It wasn't some toss away event. Left serious scars.

rhhardin said...

White supremicists. It's a really good time to read Derbyshire's list of the varieties of belief and suggested names for them. A riff on something McWhorter wrote.

http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2016-12-02.html

Item 05.

Ralph L said...

I think both the White Nationalists and the Anti-Fa are equally bad for our country. Who here disagrees?

One side is much smaller but much better armed. For now.

As far as I can tell, which ain't much, the WN aren't anti-free speech, yet.

buwaya said...

Skokie was Nazis, not the KKK.
And there were only 20 Nazis there.

Ann Althouse said...

"Videos of the incident do not show a driver trying to escape the counter protestors but rather someone who was waiting at the spot before gunning the engine and ramming into the crowd, which was retreating from the scene."

What does that mean? Waiting?

It's possible that he was driving down the narrow street and saw ahead of him a crowd in the street. The crowd might have looked angry and scary to him and be all around his car. If, under those circumstances, he waited, that could mean that he was scared and confused and trying to figure out what to do. What was the crowd doing/yelling during that time? Gunning it is a terrible idea, but subjectively, he might have felt they were going to treat him like Reginald Denny.

(I asked Meade how to spell Denny, and he told me he'd already written about Denny in this thread. But I hadn't read that when I wrote this.)

rhhardin said...

The education department should add driver training to national curriculum.

Michael K said...

A comment from a Roger L Simon post:

This was about the removal of a statue. Breitbart says the it was white supremacists and the KKK. Maybe these are the groups who were willing to take it to the streets, but there is a huge (and still growing) resentment to the left attacks on Western Civilization and all that remains of America's founding principles of Liberty. The fact that the left continues to redefine this as some kind of White Supremacy movement further angers the good American people.

I pretty much agree with this and I also agree that the sort of people who are willing to go to such a rally and march around are probably young and might not be that smart but there are a lot of people who are in at least partial agreement with them.

rhhardin said...

What a day, what a day, for an auto de fe.

- Candide

rhhardin said...

auto da fe

Craig said...

The OED isn't some lawmaker. It is a foreign dictionary, and it is just one of many, many English dictionaries. I gave you evidence that many other English dictionaries do not fetishize weapons the way that you and the OED do. As best I can tell, you want to establish a concrete / figurative divide, or you want to conservatively claim that the OED establishes some such thing for us speakers of ordinary, American English. But you're going against the grain of the descriptively picked out usage, as I showed. And, of course, the language evolves. What the OED thinks is central -- that something is a weapon -- might have been replaced in the language by something else -- perhaps by being threatening, in the way that even defensive equipment can be threatening.

More succinctly, you're either ignoring or incorrectly reading the definitions: "something, especially a weapon" and "something, such as a weapon" both make clear that you could brandish something other than a weapon.

Mutaman said...

"Gunning it is a terrible idea, but subjectively, he might have felt they were going to treat him like Reginald Denny. "

The old profeser is really big on subjective opinion. Objective truth- not so much.

madAsHell said...

He looks like he would drive a Dodge Challenger.

Ralph L said...

Someone posted a video yesterday taken from up the block from the crash. Very few people nearby, and he could have turned the corner onto an empty street if he weren't already driving so fast. Looks like his airbag should have deployed.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Mutaman -- not man, but object!

Ann Althouse said...

"""Notice the assumption that it's simply a fact that it was "a white supremacist rally." I'm not sure that's established." What would it take to establish it in your mind professor?" More than a framed shot of a couple dozen people within a crowd of (what I hear was) thousands. Here's related question that comes to my mind. Sometimes you have a parade, maybe a St. Patrick's Day Parade, and a gay rights group wanted to have one float in the parade and is told no. Do you think the parade organization is right to exclude them on the ground that it makes the whole parade seem to be pro-gay rights? Or do you think the gay rights float only speaks for that float and the rest of the parade is not having its message changed?"

To continue this thought...

At the Wisconsin protests, I sometimes saw people in the Anonymous mask, but I did not assume that the overall group were whatever the hell Anonymous is supposed to be. I assumed the great majority of the people were actually pretty moderate types — liberals sympathetic with the traditional labor movement, Democrats unhappy that Republicans won in the last election, students with amorphous idealistic values.

The bigger a protest is, the more diversity I would assume there is in the groups. Going to Charlottesville became a thing for people, including people who like to look on Robert E. Lee as a great man or who care about not tearing down historical statues or who love Thomas Jefferson and worry that those with political power in Charlottesville are going to set their sites on him.

buwaya said...

I wonder about the sides being much smaller or larger argument. I suspect that the population of radicalized white people as an ethnic movement, is enormous. Only a small minority are Nazis in ideology or choice of symbols.

There almost certainly are far more of them than there are of the population that generated the counter-protesters on Saturday.

They COULD be Nazis, if this American Cold Civil War continues. Taking down Confederate monuments for instance is a privocative and radicalizing act.

Paco Wové said...

"The OED isn't some lawmaker. It is a foreign dictionary"

Foreigners. You know who else is foreign ....? The Russkies. It all fits. Open your eyes, people!!

Ralph L said...

One odd thing: the Tiki torchers had no visible group ID or signs, but yesterday's had flags and emblems. The other side had more signs.

Angel-Dyne said...

Mutaman: Whataboutism is a propaganda technique formerly used by the Soviet Union...

Yeah, we know. A few weeks ago, every SJW on the net was slinging "whataboutism" around, after it was sent down as the word-of-the-day from shitlib central command in the latest lame maneuver to deflect attention from SOP lefty hypocrisy. I hope y'all impressed each other.

roesch/voltaire said...

There are reports from eyewitnesses that noted they had seen the car sitting there for some time.( probably five or ten seconds) The crowd was in retreat and had their backs to him-- from the video very few of them were even near the car, but I suppose the hysteria generated by his involvement in the rally charged him to feel justified to ram into the crowd and kill people? I can't speculate on his motives but the police have charged him with murder.

Bay Area Guy said...

To the Left, anyone who is not passionately devoted to eradicating every last vestige of racial discrimination, is by definition a racist.

Ann Althouse said...

"The old profeser is really big on subjective opinion. Objective truth- not so much."

The law professor is aware that this is a criminal case and mens rea is part of the definition of crimes.

Compare it it to cases where cops shoot somebody because they believe they see a weapon, but the objective truth is that it was not a weapon. Self-defense is looked at from the point of view of the person charged with the crime.

HT said...

r/v

"there are reports from eyewitnesses" - earlier you said there was video.

MayBee said...

I'd never heard the term "Whataboutism" until Barack Obama was no longer President. I don't remember anybody using it during the 8 years he blamed George W Bush for all of American's trouble.

Paco Wové said...

"To the Left, anyone who is not passionately devoted to eradicating every last vestige of racial discrimination"

I don't see any evidence that the left has problems with racial discrimination, as long as the right people are hurt.

Bay Area Guy said...

"I can't speculate on his motives but the police have charged him with murder."

Correct. And, in the Court of public opinion, the Left and its allies have charged and convicted him (and anyone who doesn't condemn him) as a racist. A 20-year old kid/man.

Maybe he was just drunk and stupid.



Earnest Prole said...

The crowd might have looked angry and scary to him and be all around his car . . . subjectively, he might have felt they were going to treat him like Reginald Denny.

Watch the video: the crowd looks to be about a block away before he accelerates toward them. The law of self defense would allow deadly force (including a car) against individuals who present an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm (Virginia law probably varies somewhat in the details but you get the basic idea). But there is simply no way that people a block away could reasonably be said to present an imminent threat.

David Begley said...

Ivanka Trump on Twitter this AM, "There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis."

Ann Althouse said...

"Someone posted a video yesterday taken from up the block from the crash. Very few people nearby, and he could have turned the corner onto an empty street if he weren't already driving so fast...."

If you're a 20-year-old driving a car, trying to get somewhere in an unfamiliar town, you might think you need to go where your phone is telling you to go.

On the other hand, if you violate the instructions and go a different way, the phone will re-route and you'll still be able to get where you want.

But if you believe scary crowds are converging from all around, you may think, I've got to get out of here fast. I'm not saying you're right to plow into people, just trying to understand the facts at the level I know them. The guy did something very extreme, and it might be because he's an extremist -- a terrorist (I'm seeing that word) -- but it could be that he's more like you and me, caught in a sudden situation and beset by fear.

I'm saying that if we really hate hate, we should put ourselves in the other person's position and try to understand them as a human being. Before you isolate him and treat him as an evil "other," imagine him as a real person, with a mind that you can understand as a fellow human being.

This is what a criminal defense lawyer would ask you to do.

MayBee said...

People are angry Trump denounced bigotry and violence, and not specifically the White Nationalists.

But- serious question- do we want the President of the United States to tell groups their thoughts are not welcome here? If we do want that, do we want those thoughts to be illegal?

I always thought you could have whatever thought you wanted in America. You could express it (unless it's a direct threat), and you can demonstrate about it. But you can't be violent, you can't harm others, you can't infringe on the rights of others while you hate.

I'd much rather POTUS condemn actions, not thoughts.

MayBee said...

David Begely- what does it mean to have no place in society for racism? Should it be illegal to be a Nazi?

HT said...

At the risk of overgeneralizing, many if not most white Southerners (at least of Scottish and English extraction) have a moderate to strong feeling about the generals who fought in the Civil War, and it will be painful for them (in some cases, extremely so) to have them removed as they are a definite part of a particular town or city. I do not consider such persons racist. Among themselves, they do not consider each other racist for being attached to them. We do not really care what other people think - in this regard. Actually, that's not entirely true - many of us would care what African Americans in the same community think. And such consideration is likewise painful.

Sam L. said...

The edge of a shield can be used as a weapon.

Ann Althouse said...

"or who love Thomas Jefferson and worry that those with political power in Charlottesville are going to set their sites on him."

sights

(Sorry!)

buwaya said...

A philosopher-king, with unlimited power and irreproachable legitimacy of course, as philosopher-kings must be blessed with in all such theoretical exercises, would address the reasons for white disaffection before there really is an established white ethnic tribal movement, to match and counter all the others.

The philosopher-king would do everything possible to raise the morale of these people through prosperity, and to protect them from harassment by their enemies, that they not be tempted into revolt. Of all revolts, the worst are the revolts of the majority.

To a great degree Trump is this philosopher-king, but of course this is real life and not a Platonic fantasy.

Ann Althouse said...

Living on the internet too long...

Mutaman said...

"What would it take to establish it in your mind professor?" More than a framed shot of a couple dozen people within a crowd of (what I hear was) thousands. "

Let's see:

1. The event was organized by Jason Kessler who calls himself a “white advocate,” and who said in an interview that his goal was to “de-stigmatize white advocacy so that white people can stand up for their interests just like any other identity group.”

2. Mr Kessler files a successful lawsuit to keep the event at Emancipation Park.

3. In granting Mr Kessler's request, U.S. District Court Judge Glen E. Conrad held that the city’s attempt to move the rally to McIntire Park was in response to the rally’s content - advocating the rights of White Supremacists.

Facts are stubborn things.

Bay Area Guy said...

After they take down the statues of Robert E. Lee, they really need to take a look at removing all statues of Thomas Jefferson. He did own slaves, you know.

Mutaman said...

"The law professor is aware that this is a criminal case and mens rea is part of the definition of crimes."

I thought you guys had gotten rid of the "mens rea" requirement- see HRC, emails, Comey.

Ann Althouse said...

He's charged with murder in the second degree.

From the Virginia statute:

"Murder, other than capital murder, by poison, lying in wait, imprisonment, starving, or by any willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or in the commission of, or attempt to commit, arson, rape, forcible sodomy, inanimate or animate object sexual penetration, robbery, burglary or abduction, except as provided in § 18.2-31, is murder of the first degree, punishable as a Class 2 felony. All murder other than capital murder and murder in the first degree is murder of the second degree and is punishable by confinement in a state correctional facility for not less than five nor more than forty years."

Why isn't it capital murder or murder in the first degree?

HT said...

Can the charge change as more information is gathered?

Unknown said...

Actually,

Trumpers = Neo-Nazi's + White Nationalists

isn't quite right. More correct to say

Trumpers = Venn Diagram of Neo-Nazi's and White Nationalists

Now, you can choose how much of a Neo-Nazi and White Nationalist you are. Enjoy working out where you are on the spectrum.

Lem said...

I read Japan is dying from an overworked population unwilling to and not having time for and too tired for procreating. They are dying out because they are not having babies.

We don't have that problem.

How does that connect with what we are talking about here?

I'm too tired to go into it.

Ann Althouse said...

"Come on. Just google image Charlottesville mugshot."

I don't know what you mean. The mugshot appears in this post.

Ralph L said...

I never thought my mother's Tobacco Road hometown would be more advanced than hip Charlottesville:

Wiki with my added link:
Following the Oxford race riots, in which the movie correctly depicts protesters trying to topple the monument using ropes, the monument was moved in 1971, from the courthouse square [middle of main intersection downtown] to a location in front of the Richard H. Thornton Library. Since 2009, there has been a movement to have the monument moved to a graveyard located down the street.

Movie reference: "In 1970, [black] Henry Marrow was killed in Oxford. The killing resulted in a racial protest [riots after white perps were acquitted]. The events were chronicled by Timothy Tyson in the book Blood Done Sign My Name and a movie with the same name." My lefty cousin wasn't allowed to enter town during the riots.

Michael K said...

Mutaman Another blank profile appears. Guess what ? A leftist !

"Watch the video: the crowd looks to be about a block away"

It would be a big help if you would include a link to the video you refer to, unless like R/V your story keeps changing.

I have watched several videos including one that was made next to the Cadillac he rear ended. That car had another in front of it. Both were surrounded by the Resist and Antifa mob. I did not see where the Charger came from so, if you have another video, how about a link ? The crowd was definitely not "a block away"from those two cars which actually hit the people around them.

Craig said...

"Come on. Just google image Charlottesville mugshot."

I don't know what you mean. The mugshot appears in this post.

---

I think the point was that if you google image searched "Charlottesville mugshot" (as I did and I presume the other commenter did), you would see interspersed among the mugshots several pictures of other people wearing what looks to be the same "old-time striped prison wear".

Bruce Hayden said...

"Two of the people killed were in the police chopper, right? I think it's weird that number is being added to the rally total. Why is that? Isn't it bad enough already?"

Personally, I would have attributed those two deaths to the Antifa people, since they were the counterprotesters inciting more of the violence. Absent their presence, there may have been no reason for the chopper to be flying.

Birkel said...

Unknown714 is a new Inga account?

Ann Althouse said...

"The event was organized by Jason Kessler who calls himself a “white advocate,” and who said in an interview that his goal was to “de-stigmatize white advocacy so that white people can stand up for their interests just like any other identity group.”"

That sounds like a denial of a belief in supremacy.

Mutaman said...

"I'd much rather POTUS condemn actions, not thoughts."

I think people are angry he didn't condemn actions. For an example of these actions- read a history book. Start with this chapter:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDoU8XU0AAt97b.jpg:large

Then read this one:
https://twitter.com/tomwatson

You can finish here:

https://twitter.com/tomwatson

Ann Althouse said...

"In granting Mr Kessler's request, U.S. District Court Judge Glen E. Conrad held that the city’s attempt to move the rally to McIntire Park was in response to the rally’s content - advocating the rights of White Supremacists."

You didn't give me the text of what the judge said. I'm going to look it up, and it better say "white supremacy" or I'm going to be very annoyed that you wasted my time.

Gospace said...

Bay Area Guy said...
After they take down the statues of Robert E. Lee, they really need to take a look at removing all statues of Thomas Jefferson. He did own slaves, you know.


Day late and a dollar short. The movement to remove his statues already exists. One example: https://www.change.org/p/the-university-of-missouri-remove-the-statue-of-thomas-jefferson-from-campus

MayBee said...

Mutaman- he did condemn actions. What history book do I need to read about yesterday?

Lem said...

Althouse is citing Virginia law.

A indelicately forced into retirement employee (at the old job I had) was from time to time contacted about previous jobs he had worked on, nothing unheard of in the field of his profession.

The guy wrote back a cease and desist letter to the company about contacting him ever again.

Ann Althouse said...

Okay. I'm very annoyed.

From The Daily Progress, August 11th:

"U.S. District Court Judge Glen E. Conrad ... said he granted the injunction because testimony indicated that Kessler could successfully prove that the city revoked his original permit based on his ideas.

"The injunction was filed early Friday by civil rights organizations American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia and the Albemarle County-based Rutherford Institute.

"“Based on the current record, the court concludes that Kessler has shown that he will likely prove that the decision to revoke his permit was based on the content of his speech,” Conrad wrote. “Kessler’s assertion in this regard is supported by the fact that the city solely revoked his permit but left in place the permits issued to counter-protestors.”

"Conrad said information presented at the hearing indicated the city’s decision was “based on the content of his speech” rather than public safety factors.

"“This conclusion is bolstered by other evidence, including communications on social media indicating that members of City Council oppose Kessler’s political viewpoint,” Conrad wrote. “At this stage of the proceedings, the evidence cited by Kessler supports the conclusion that the city’s decision constitutes a content-based restriction of speech.”...

The word "supremacy" doesn't appear there.

Maybe you have a more comprehensive text and I have missed where the judge said the point of view of the whole rally was white supremacy. I'm guessing that at most you have the idea that the people who denied the permit associated the whole group with what they thought of as white supremacy.

Dr Weevil said...

If only we had journalists who were willing, or even able, to do their job professionally, maybe we'd know the answers to the obvious questions that follow the statement that this guy's father was killed by a drunk driver and his mother is paraplegic (assuming that's true):

1. Was his mother paralyzed in the same accident that killed his father? That would tend to increase the trauma.

2. Does he have any brothers or sisters, or is he the only caretaker for his mother? (Or rather 'was he': she's obviously going to need a new one for the foreseeable future.)

3. Already asked by Ralph L. above (10:02am): when did this happen? If it was four months into his Army career, that would explain his separation from the military without any need to assume that he was substandard in any way. Especially so, if the answer to #2 is that he's an only child. He may (note: may) have been well on his way to a successful and happy life when some drunk asshole wrecked it forever. (I know someone who had to leave school and go back home to the farm to take care of a disabled parent for 6-8 years: s/he is still feeling the negative effects decades later, embittered, though not against the parent, who was certainly not responsible. And that was caused by an act-of-God medical condition, not a drunken asshole human.)

4. What I would have thought an obvious followup question on a racist orphaned by a drunk driver: what race was the drunk driver, and how many times had he been arrested and then let go to drive drunk again? Was he black or Hispanic? Was he an illegal immigrant who'd been caught repeatedly driving drunk and/or without a license but released early by a fool judge so he wouldn't be deported? If so, was the judge black or Hispanic? Had the drunk driver been deported repeatedly for drunk driving or other crimes and come back each time, because (assuming the timing is right) a black president couldn't be bothered to enforce existing border-control laws? I have no idea whether any of these things are true, but it's odd that no one seems to be asking. Maybe they're afraid the answers will force them to feel some sympathy for a guy they're determined to hate. Or maybe journalists are just too stupid to think of them.

exhelodrvr1 said...

I found it interesting that in his speech the governor said that people should be looking to Jefferson and Washington instead of to Robert E. Lee. Of course, they were both slaveholders, too. They are farther down the list, but eventually it's going to get to them, too.

Ralph L said...

Here's the upstreet video:
Down the hill
Sorry, that was a pedestrian mall, not a side street, but he still could see the crowd at the end well before he drove into it.

buwaya said...

If the Trumpers are Nazis and white nationalists, as no doubt many already are, then you should be very scared of provoking them.

Such an enormous group with such a great deal of fundamental leverage (they are the people with hands on the switches of the modern world), if organized and active and unified and hostile through fear and resentment, would be extremely powerful.

The best approach is to avoid provoking them, and to reduce their anxiety. But this does not seem to be the approach their opponents have chosen.

Ann Althouse said...

Even if we can pin white supremacy on Kessler and he got denied the permit because of that, it doesn't mean that everyone who showed up was also a white supremacist. This guilt by association approach is really dangerous and wrong. People assemble for all sorts of reasons, and assembled people are still individuals.

And denying Kessler a permit on the ground that he's a white supremacist -- whether he is or isn't -- would be viewpoint discrimination and obviously a violation of the First Amendment. I'm sad that I feel I need to say that.

Ann Althouse said...

The ACLU represented him for a reason.

Michael said...

Maybee at 10:40. Exactly

HT said...

"I found it interesting that in his speech the governor said that people should be looking to Jefferson and Washington instead of to Robert E. Lee. Of course, they were both slaveholders, too. They are farther down the list, but eventually it's going to get to them, too."

The governor is from Massachusetts I think.

Thanks Craig, though I suspect had Ann read my comment (and yours before) at 9.52 am, she really did know what I was referring to, and was just playing or something.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Should the police casualties be included in this? I don't think so, unless they crashed because of some actions taken by protesters. You shouldn't be blaming the protesters (of either side) if the crash was caused by a mechanical problem or pilot error.

exhelodrvr1 said...

"The governor is from Massachusetts I think."

It was GOvernor McAuliffe from VA

HT said...

McAuliffe is from Massaschusetts.

Ralph L said...

de-stigmatize white advocacy
Massive fail. Which he should have known when he invited the KKK and other thuglies.

Michael said...

My hat is off to Trump for not kowtowing to those screaming that he must, must, denounce the white supremacists, Nazis nationalists for daring to assemble. He is right to steer clear of what our former POTUS would have leapt into with both well shod feet.
We are a long long way from the liberal world I so loved and fought for. gone with the fucking wind.

Mutaman said...

"or I'm going to be very annoyed that you wasted my time."

Wasted your time? You mean time better spent looking at kids's pajamas to see if they have the letters "N.I.G." written on them?

Are you seriously arguing that Kessler's "ideas" and his "political viewpoint", which the court found was the basis for the City's opposition, is not "white Supremacy"? Maybe we need your definition of
"white Supremacy".

Birkel said...

I'm just glad we can all condemn La Raza now that Leftist Collectivists have defined the terms of the debate.

Paco Wové said...

"Okay. I'm very annoyed."

I assume Mutaman is one of those people who sees "white advocacy" and their brain immediately changes that to "white supremacy".

Earnest Prole said...

It would be a big help if you would include a link to the video you refer to, unless like R/V your story keeps changing.

For the benefit of older commenters who may not yet have installed that new Google software on their mainframe computers:

Here’s your link.

Angel-Dyne said...

buwaya: I wonder about the sides being much smaller or larger argument. I suspect that the population of radicalized white people as an ethnic movement, is enormous. Only a small minority are Nazis in ideology or choice of symbols.

There almost certainly are far more of them than there are of the population that generated the counter-protesters on Saturday.

They COULD be Nazis, if this American Cold Civil War continues. Taking down Confederate monuments for instance is a privocative and radicalizing act.


I don't think any development in the direction of "white identity" will tend toward "Nazi". The whole Nazi wah is alien in sensibility to most white Americans. Nazis are, essentially, ridiculous. Among American whites, those temperamentally most in line with that "civic style", as it were (conformity, obedience, love of authority), are Germans and Scandinavians, and as identifiable ethnicities they are pretty much wholly given over to the most shitlibby of shitlibbery these days. Not that you can't find some who are "woke" (Trump didn't elect himself in Iowa after all), but Nazis? No.

The orneriest American whites - the Scots-Irish - well, they're too ornery. Nazis don't tell properly constituted government authority to get the fuck off their land. (The bow and get off their land.) The Irish? Also ornery, and would be temperamentally incapable of keeping a straight face or not taking the piss in the presence of Nazi mummery. Same for Italians, a people who couldn't even be proper fascists when they were fascists. "Nazi" will never appeal to more than a few lost souls susceptible to operators like Richard Spencer.

Hell, buwaya, I'm as ornery a reactionary as they come, and I'd have a hard time not laughing at a Nazi even if he were pointing a gun at my face. If it goes, it'll go in another direction.

Among the set of Americans I know who are most upset and angry about the current Red Guard memory-holing crusade (and you're right, there's an enormous amount of anger out here), not a single one evinces anything but disgust and contempt toward the Nazi-larpers. It's fundamentally alien, pace the prog hysterics who look in the mirror and think they're looking out the window and seeing Trump.

Mutaman said...

"The ACLU represented him for a reason."

The ACLU has represented the KKK on numerous occasions.

https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-em-defends-kkks-right-free-speech

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/19/a-history-of-the-aclu-defending-confederate-veterans-the-kkk-and-rush-limbaugh/?utm_term=.283a2f7ab2f2

So what?

n.n said...

Elective abortion. Left vs Left. [class] diversitists vs color supremacists. Ideally, the factions can be recruited to fight each other a la socialists vs fascists vs communists.

Ralph L said...

I'm sad that I feel I need to say that.
I helped mansplain that to a college lefty friend about the Skokie march at the time. She's now a Presbyterian minister spouting God knows what. She was the first person I knew to talk about "diversity."

Birkel said...

The court found nothing about Kessler's point of view. The court found the city considered an impermissible criteria when denying his permit.

That impermissible criteria is ANY point of view.

HT said...

BTW, the same video keeps getting posted that is .... everywhere else on the internet. It is telling us nothing new, like whether he was having his car banged on or was surrounded or not.

buwaya said...

If there are enough people in the movement for white advocacy, the thuglies get destigmatized by default, being just small parts of a larger whole.

Its one thing to stigmatize a few marginal types, its quite another to go after millions. That is a formula for real civil unrest, for a Civil War.

Everyone has been playing with fire for too long.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

The hackD- MSM Chuck Todd media are on over-load painting this as Trump is a White Supremacist.

Jupiter said...

Mutaman said ...
"1. The event was organized by Jason Kessler who calls himself a “white advocate,” and who said in an interview that his goal was to “de-stigmatize white advocacy so that white people can stand up for their interests just like any other identity group.”

3. In granting Mr Kessler's request, U.S. District Court Judge Glen E. Conrad held that the city’s attempt to move the rally to McIntire Park was in response to the rally’s content - advocating the rights of White Supremacists."

The judge -- and you -- characterized them as White Supremacists. They did not. Kessler was very clear as to what he wants, and he did not say anything about "supremacy". Is it your contention that white people demanding the same rights as others are demanding supremacy? If so, what are the others demanding?

exhelodrvr1 said...

HT,
Stop digging.

Michael K said...

For the benefit of older commenters who may not yet have installed that new Google software on their mainframe computers:

Here’s your link.


Slightly amusing but that is a different video from the two I saw yesterday which were taken by someone in the crowd that was next to the Cadillac he hit. It does make a better argument that he was not caught in the mob but still does not explain motive.

I wonder if there are other videos ?

Ralph L said...

The orneriest American whites - the Scots-Irish - well, they're too ornery.
Hey, don't talk about me and Tradguy like that!

HT said...

I wonder if there are other videos ?

Look in your history.

Quaestor said...

Would he really have changed shirts?

The man in photo #2 is wearing prison stripes.

The two men are very similar. Both have long ears. Each parts his hair on the left. The odd thing is the beard. Man #2 seems to have less beard showing than man #1. That could be the lighting, however. I conclude they are the same person.

Paco Wové said...

"The judge -- and you -- characterized them as White Supremacists."

As Althouse pointed out (with annoyance), the judge didn't. That was Mutaman's own invention.

buwaya said...

Angel-Dyne,

I agree the Nazi symbolism is silly and alien. But, well, it seemed that there were an awful lot of them there yesterday, far more than I had imagined could be turned out.

You can get a few dozen to sign up for nearly anything. Heck, you can sign up a few thousand to get their genitals hacked on, apparently, with enough propaganda.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

The media is doing a Ferguson.Not reporting facts they find uncomfortable - like ANTIFA starting the violence, while misrepresenting actual facts - such as the officers dying in a unrelated crash.
The VA ACLU tweeted that a rock thrown at the grey mustang may have sparked the vehicle attack. http://www.ajc.com/news/national/driver-car-that-plowed-into-crowd-protesting-white-nationalists-identified/ERteAyGOI0wQwXlm1dmxKP/

Michael K said...

"Maybe we need your definition of "white Supremacy".

Maybe we need yours, whoever you are. There is a war against white people in this country right now by the left and the BLM types.

The kids who go to marches are a small portion of people who are angry about this carp, like Stanford putting on "whiteness" courses."

I don't know yet what this kid's motive was. Maybe he's crazy and maybe he's just looking for fights.

The "White Supremacy" is about as real as your "Black Lives Matter."

Michael K said...

I wonder if there are other videos ?

Look in your history.


What does that mean ?

Ralph L said...

But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao....

At a time like this, at what point does any President singling out a group for their thoughts sound like censorship? Or tainting the jury pool?

hombre said...

A lot of trolls turning up today. Special Soros appropriation waiting for, f-I-n-a-l-l-y, some right wing violence on protest day.

Although two thing are evident: 1. An essential element to street protest violence is the presence of left wing stooges in the streets. 2. The trolls here today don't distinguish between a critical analysis of evidence and an argument for or against a conclusion. Nothing new about either.

HT said...

Sorry, your history FOLDER (as you said you saw a video yesterday)

Birkel said...

Can anybody remember President Obama peppered with questions about condemning violent protests by his fellow travelers?

Why does the Left (and the LLRs) advocate unilateral disarmament in identity politics? What happens when people refuse to unilaterally disarm?

The media has lost its control. Democrats and Republicans have lost control. This is decentralized.

Snark said...

1) Yes, it's clearly the same guy. You can see those oddly shaped eyebrows above his glasses, and it's particularly apparent on his left eye. As has been pointed out, either that shirt is police issued or a lot of Charlottesville arrests involve people with remarkably similar fashion instincts.

2) What a horrible inadvertent ambush of his mother. As they say on Twitter, "Sad!"

Michael K said...

Here is a series of videos and more info on the suspect. The Live Leak video is the one I saw or very close to it. There are several there.

Snark said...

"Meh. Hair cut short on the sides and longer on top has been a great look since, what, 1933?"

I LOLd.

Earnest Prole said...

Here’s a good primer on Virginia deadly-force self-defense law. Based on the longer video taken from up the street, the suspect in this case will likely fail all four tests.

“Virginia law allows the use of self defense where a person:

1. Reasonably believes

2. He is in imminent danger of an overt act

3. Threatening unlawful force, serious bodily harm, or death; and

4. Uses the amount of force reasonable in relation to the harm threatened.”

Birkel said...

"...inadvertent ambush..."

Would you care to revise?

Rabel said...

"or who love Thomas Jefferson and worry that those with political power in Charlottesville are going to set their sites on him."

I thought it was excellent wordplay as originally written.

Michael K said...

One of the photos of the suspect in the linked site shows him with very short hair.

buwaya said...

The war against white people, and Western Civilization, goes on mostly in the schools, especially, in the immediate sense, K-12. That is the Western front of this stuff, where the masses are made to suffer in the trenches.

K-12 gets it because of how teachers are selected and trained, and this goes to colleges of education, and these, for their ideological and philosophical themes, get it from the rest of the university consensus.

Thats the ultimate source of the culture war aspect of these conflicts.

Few people get this. Its not in the news.

BLM is a marginal media creation.

Birkel said...

Earnest Prole:
#1 in your list is subjective reasonableness.
Bernard Goetz holding on Line 1.

William said...

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near either of those two protest groups. I suppose some people on both sides are legit citizens, but both groups and the event itself were magnets for assholes. If you put such people in close proximity to each other, bad things are bound to happen...... .I have blood relatives who were fired on and wounded by the army of Robert E. Lee. If I'm willing to forgive him, why can't the protesters? Who has standing to forgive a historical wrong that no one presently alive suffered from?.......Why stop with Jefferson? Franklin later adopted an anti-slavery position, but early in his life he owned slaves. He was also against German immigrants at the time of the French & Indian War.

Grumpy Grandpa said...

Michael K is telling the truth, there is a war against white people in this country. It is time that those who built this nation into being the greatest on earth fight back against those who are trying to take over and tear it down.

Angel-Dyne said...

Mutaman - I don't understand the difficulty you have distinguishing between "advocate" and "supremacist".

If you wanted to argue that all racial/ethnic advocacy groups are by nature implicitly "supremacist", I would not agree, but that could be an interesting argument, and at least I could give you some credit for consistency.

wwww said...

If you're a 20-year-old driving a car, trying to get somewhere in an unfamiliar town, you might think you need to go where your phone is telling you to go.


I do not find this credible.

There is a video that is shot from a couple of blocks away from the crowd. The car comes racing into the picture, and drives right into the crowd at speed.

I don't know if anyone else has been to Charlottesville, but a significant portion of the downtown is a pedestrian mall. It's not a "normal" drive through the city type of place. It's not "easy" to race or cruise through the downtown area of that town in a car. Many roads are blocked to traffic, and restricted to pedestrians.

EDH said...

The second picture seems to have a sharply over-shaved space between the eyebrows.

Those are no longer eyebrows. Instead, they are well on the way to becoming TWO carefully cultivated Hitler mustaches.

mockturtle said...

William asks: Why stop with Jefferson? Franklin later adopted an anti-slavery position, but early in his life he owned slaves. He was also against German immigrants at the time of the French & Indian War.

For that matter, will the Lincoln Memorial be safe when SJWs learn that Lincoln favored sending freed slaves back to Africa?

Big Mike said...

I'm trying to figure out why people are hung up on the shield. If I was attending what I had expected to be a noisy but non-violent demonstration, like the previous two demonstrations, and had been confronted with a rock-throwing, bottle-throwing, club-waving mob of people intent on violence, I might grab a shield myself. Not to mention how simple it is to photoshop a round, black shape onto an ordinary picture.

I understand that Charlottesville does, indeed use black and white striped prison garb. I've seen a photo of Jesse Matthews behind bars, the man convicted of murdering coeds Heather Graham and Morgan Harrington there in Charlottesville, and he's wearing the same black and white patterned clothing. Still, I think the man photographed in the white shirt and sunglasses is not the same person as Fields in prison garb.

The area where the incident took place features narrow, one-way streets, a situation no doubt exacerbated by police barricades. Young Mr. Fields was no doubt trying to get to US 250 to head out of the city when he found his way blocked by a car surrounded be antifa thugs pounding on it. He stops, trying to figure out what to do, and now antifa thugs start pounding on his nice car. He panics, and drives forward hoping to push the car in front out of the way (not his best move, but he's panicking). It doesn't work, so he accelerates backwards to get out. Yeah, if I was on his jury and that was the storyline pushed by his defense attorney, I'd vote to acquit. If he said someone was screaming and pounding on his car, I'd believe him over a thousand antifa thugs who said no one touched his car. They came looking for a fight and are all butt hurt that they found one.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Just how many white supremacists are there?

Roger Simon does the math.

mockturtle said...

Let's say a peaceful group of ordinary citizens encircled, hand-in-hand, the R.E. Lee statue when it was supposed to be taken down. Would the Antifas attack them? Was there ever a vote taken regarding this statue?

Angel-Dyne said...

Grumpy Grandpa - changing your name won't improve the quality of your posts, or render your characteristic plodding attempts at wit unrecognizable to regular readers.

No matter how many times you do it.

Laslo Spatula said...

What confuses me is -- if he intended to run into protesters -- why did he go in the direction of a rather narrow street with stopped cars blocking the exit?

It would seem you would be going after people on a sidewalk of an open street -- a sideswipe where you could escape forward, with less damage to the car.

I would almost say he wanted to be caught, save for the quick reverse from the scene.

Seems like he short-circuited. Whether that was from malice or fear I do not profess to know: I imagine that information will be coming shortly...

I am Laslo.

mockturtle said...

Aside from the apparent murder-by-vehicle incident, I would like a frame-by-frame analysis of all the videos of the protests including those from surveillance cameras to determine who was committing violence first, and how, and what individuals were involved. Of course, this would require a neutral party. Is there such an entity today?

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

After watching videos it is unclear if Fields intended to ram people or just freaked out in fear, like the case in NYC were a man ran over motorcycles after they surrounded his vehicle. On unfamiliar streets, surrounded by mobs and with someone allegedly throwing rocks at his vehicle (as at least one witness claimed) he may have just freaked out in desperation to get away.

Michael K said...

A bit more info on the driver.

Fields Jr. was raised by a single mother that is paraplegic, after his father was killed by a drunk driver a few months before his birth, according to a family member who requested confidentiality.

That site also says he was "denied entry to the Army because of antipsychotic medication he takes. "

If he concealed some medical or psych history, that might be a reason to discharge him and it is also a felony.

The video at that sire looks like the same one I saw yesterday. The audio is similar or the same. There were two cars in front of him, both slowly negotiating the crowd blocking the street, They are seen in that video.

Achilles said...


Blogger Mutaman said...
"The ACLU represented him for a reason."

The ACLU has represented the KKK on numerous occasions.

Democrats and KKK and ACLU and racism all overlap in the Venn diagram.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Seems like he short-circuited."

Fight or Flight, perhaps.

I am Laslo.

Bay Area Guy said...

The "Democrat Party" supported slavery and Jim Crowe laws for decades. I insist that they change their name and disassociate themselves from the racist connotations that the term "Democratic" represents.

wwww said...

The video at that sire looks like the same one I saw yesterday. The audio is similar or the same. There were two cars in front of him, both slowly negotiating the crowd blocking the street, They are seen in that video.


He wasn't driving behind those cars. The video shows him screeching into a video frame from the blocks behind, and racing into the crowd. You can't even see the two cars from that video. Pedestrians are racing out of the way as he races up the street.

There were two men interviewed who were on that corner that the video I'm taking about was taken from. He's driving for a couple of blocks at speed and races directly into the crowd. There's no attempt to slow -- in fact it looks like he's accelerating.

Dr Weevil said...

mockturtle:
I would also like that, and have a related question. Was anyone at all arrested other than this guy? If anyone was, why aren't we hearing about it? Where are the mugshots? If no one else was arrested, why not? I've read that 15 people were hospitalized, NOT counting the 19-20 hit by the car (or hit by the other cars it hit). They can't all have hurt themselves accidentally. And there are easily-identifiable pictures of people committing what look like obvious felonies: e.g. the shirtless black guy aiming an improvised flame-thrower at a guy brandishing a rolled up Confederate flag. It can't be legal to aim a 4' stream of flaming aerosol at someone, even from 6' or 7' away, can it? Even if you don't care about the guy he's aiming at - most people on Twitter think the picture's hilarious - he's lucky he didn't set himself or one of his buddies on fire. Seems like a flaming aerosol can could easily explode.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

This USA Today article does a fairly good job documenting the ugly behavior of the left/ANTIFA. They attacked the right with paint filled water balloons, urine, mace..... In videos/photos you can see plenty of them carrying sticks and wearing masks. The left went with the intention of causing violence - and they succeeded. Most BIG media give zero coverage.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/08/12/protesters-draw-blood-toss-urine-virginia-white-supremacist-rally/561939001/

Michael K said...

"There's no attempt to slow -- in fact it looks like he's accelerating."

One video shows brake lights on.

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