October 2, 2016

The prospect of a merger of the basket-of-deplorables people with the baristas-in-the-basement people.

Project a year or so down the road. Imagine a scenario in which these groups, which seem separate now, merge politically. Describe your scenario.

Group 1 is currently amassed under the banner of Donald J. Trump. Group 2 had been coalescing around Bernie Sanders, but Bernie moved out of their center and left them leaderless. The election will reposition Trump one way or the other, and either way will have an effect on where Group 1 goes next. Both groups will keep getting older and wiser and stupider.

Please speculate.

123 comments:

Mick said...

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

rhhardin said...

No chance. They differ on political correctness, which is the whole game to the deplorables.

cubanbob said...

Baristas would never be caught dead with deplorables nevermind irredeemable's. They are college educated people who deserve the job their degree entitles them to unlike the unwashed masses.

Ann Althouse said...

You're resisting the hypothetical.

Ann Althouse said...

Obviously, both groups are economic losers. Why wouldn't they form a political coalition? They could either recognize shared interests and see how they are alike and not different, or they could unite against a common enemy. It makes more sense than the coalition that had been the Republican Party, RIP 2016.

harrogate said...

At its core, this is what Occupy Wall Street aimed for.

rhhardin said...

Don't tip the baristas. They'll just buy more nose rings.

rhhardin said...

Obviously, both groups are economic losers.

Not me, and I'm certainly deplorable.

Ann Althouse said...

"They differ on political correctness, which is the whole game to the deplorables."

Oh, bullshit.

1. It's not the "whole game" to the deplorables. Economic suffering/envy is more important.

2. No one cares about "political correctness" in the abstract. It's always tied to something that you don't want said or that you want to say but feel you're not supposed to say. It's why my "civility" tag is "civility bullshit." It's always bullshit. And it's bullshit on both sides. Those who complain about being repressed by others aren't really opponents of repression per se. It's political correctness bullshit.

buwaya puti said...

The whole thing turns upon events, such as for instance another 2008 economic collapse, events abroad, and also whatever the government chooses to do, or do about anything that comes along. Or for that matter what any other player does in this country.
Most of these things are, historically, contigent and reactive.
Its a very ugly mood out there.

AJ Lynch said...

I think hypothetically it leads to monthly govt stipend to every citizen and elimination of the hundreds of current govt funded social service programs.

I.E. Give every 19-22 year old $12,000 per year to spend on education or new car or drugs or booze and very very few will elect to go to expensive colleges if we have eliminated the fed student loan programs. Dems are all about choice so why should they object to this? Repubs should approve of the equal treatment aspects of this program right and the shrinkage of fed govt right?

Achilles said...

It will happen when Bernie supporters figure out that the government is what is driving income inequality. When they notice that the wealthy people who give the politicians donations are the only people getting ahead and when they notice that democrats get most of those donations. The banks they are rightly railing against overwhelmingly support democrats and they are being used.

n.n said...

The basement faction will reconnect with Clinton and the Ass Party in the chambers. Their shared twilight quasi-religion and material orientation enables them to overcome their progressive corruption, confusion, and dissonance. They're good Americans with a rainbow of special and peculiar interests, foreign, domestic, and cultish.

Meade said...

"No chance. They differ on political correctness, which is the whole game to the deplorables."

"Make America Great Again" is political correctness. It's just that it's right-wing political correctness.

rhhardin said...

Political correctness is about not being able to address problems because it would involve noticing something out loud. It's not civility but intimidation.

For instance all outcome-based affirmative action laws can't work because the IQ of US blacks is 86. These laws will always make things worse.

That's not PC but is necessary to see.

You can't find discrimination by looking at outcomes under those conditions.

Is that deplorable enough.

rhhardin said...

You can't find discrimination in math departments because women aren't interested enough to be obsessed with it, and men are. It's a difference in thinking. They can do it but don't choose to.

buwaya puti said...

Its PC bullshit until it becomes dogma.
For instance, when it becomes impossible to teach manufacturing methods unless one kowtows to environmentalism, as a sort of required sacrifice to the pagan gods before one is permitted to do something practical. To get a grant for a more modern CNC system for instance, at a trade school, one now typically has to sell it as an "environmental" upgrade, not as something with which to bring instruction up to current industrial standards.
This is not PC bullshit, this is paralyzing dogma.

rhhardin said...

The woman thing men will go along with, because they're men and that's just another accommodation that they're willing to make to women.

The black thing though will not come out well. Mostly it hurts blacks, who think good character won't matter.

Birkel said...

Political Correctness is about silencing others.

MAGA, whatever else it is, is not about silencing others.

Meade, never in doubt...

buwaya puti said...

More PC bullshit - and less specialized than engineering schools, though engineering schools are holy to me -

Teaching methods and materials in schools. The modern state of this stuff in the schools is due to pure PC dogma. Even in math classes work is typically organized as groupwork, and grading is heavily skewed towards homework, not examinations. This is also the result of PC bullshit, which cant be questioned because PC.

Another personal encounter with the practical effect of PC, its not abstract.

When we get into the swamp thats literature and history in the schooks these days - well, I think even Althouse would be shocked.

Achilles said...

"For instance all outcome-based affirmative action laws can't work because the IQ of US blacks is 86. These laws will always make things worse."

The focus here is wrong rhardin. Instead of focusing on the genetic aspect focus on the environmental aspect. Their IQs would be higher if they weren't forced into shitty progressive dominated public schools.

Once Black people find out that progressives have been keeping them on one plantation or another for all of history they will do better and they will join the coalition Ann mentioned. This will not happen as long as they misplace their animus although animus is accurately placed on halfassed statements like yours that do the progressives work for them.

n.n said...

Environmentalism as feminism as liberalism are progressive and unqualified. The environmentalist faction of the Pro-Choice Church advocates for the green blight in contradiction to the principles appropriated in the outlook, businesses, and politics of their predecessors. Not unlike the class diversitists who judge people by the "color of their skin", the liberal economists who support trickle-up poverty, and the social justice adventurists who pursue progressive wars, anti-native policies, trial by sodomy and abortion, and, apparently, Democratic leverage through mass emigration.

rhhardin said...

The focus here is wrong rhardin. Instead of focusing on the genetic aspect focus on the environmental aspect. Their IQs would be higher if they weren't forced into shitty progressive dominated public schools.

The public schools aren't teaching good character, and they'd do fanstastically better out of that environment. But it wouldn't change the IQ scores.

n.n said...

Groupwork, groupthink, etc. are first-order anthropogenic causes of mental and physical retardation for survivors of abortion rites and planned parenthood during the formative years of human evolution.

The class diversitists lurking in the basement and clinging to chambers will not reconcile their differences, let alone logic, with diversitists, who do not share their fantasy and religious/moral orientation. The critical mass will have to be achieved through coalescence with a less contaminated group.

Michael K said...

"Obviously, both groups are economic losers."

You seem fixated on this. It's not true.

Many Trump supporters are losers in the game that is presently going on with ZIRP and the stock market balloon.

Many more are trying to run small businesses. They spend years trying to figure out the latest assault from a government run amok.

The little Oregon bakery has finally closed,. The Huffington Post is ecstatic.

They are "losers" in the war on civilization that is being waged by the Gramscian left. It's not economic. It's social.

Laslo Spatula said...

I'll take the request.

If Hillary wins:

A year from now the Bernie supporters splinter: these groups always do. The two main factions:

The idealists who refuse to participate in the system because it is, and always will be, corrupt; they will most likely hitch to Elizabeth Warren, with dream-dashing results.

The idealists who grudgingly realize they do need a job, and have had disappointing interaction with the world outside of a campus.

The first idealists will splinter itself, with a faction leaving to merge with BLM and the assorted aggrieved groups, a fringe on the Democratic party in perpetuity.

The second group will realize that the Democrats have no intention to have a post-Clinton party that accepts Sanders-style beliefs. These will split into apathy and those who really want a worthwhile job because: real world.

So, of the original Sanders group, there will be 20-to-25% that may be open to new coalitions. With the 'evil Trump' figurehead having been defeated, the Trump followers divide into apathy and those that will look for whoever can best fight against the crony system.

The Perfect Storm candidate comes that unites the 25% Sanders people with the 'more moderate' Trump followers. The focus becomes wealth inequality -- these Sanders people are not social warriors first, just against the system as it stands. Again: jobs.

These people will attract independents, who don't want the social crap either way -- they want an economy that helps everyone.

The Republicans will not coalesce around these people -- they will revert to pre-Trump Republicanism -- meaning a Third Party with no actual party behind it -- just those that will follow the Perfect Storm Candidate as an Indepent (who will run much like Trump, i.e. on the relative cheap).

The Deplorables and the Forgotten.

Of course, the need for the Perfect Storm candidate shows just how rickety the possibilities of this actually happening are, but it fits under Althouse's proposition.

I am The Replacement Laslo.

AReasonableMan said...

I think these comments effectively answer what was a good question.

dustbunny said...

Mead, I always thought of political correctness as a historically a left wing concept. It emerged out of communist ideology, where anyone who questioned the party was to be 'corrected'.
'Saying something is right wing PC is a contradiction in terms. I understand that the right certainly tries to control thought but it needs a different term. I've also heard lefties say PC is simply being polite. in fact it is a specific description to identify anyone who strays from a purely left position.
As to Althouses hypothetical, it seems logical that two economically oppressed groups would unite but the Sanders baristas are so baked in a leftist ideology and convinced of its truth it's difficult to imagine them uniting with out of work coal miners who've never ordered a non-fat soy latte.

buwaya puti said...

In fact the real US problem set begins long before one gets to politics and economics. The decadence begins in the minds and hearts of the people, the corruption in politics and economic paralysis are merely manifestations of what underlies them.

PC and civility bullshit are much more fundamental to whats going on, and Alan Bloom was closer to the root causes than the WSJ has ever been.

This is why I am pessimistic about recovery from the current decline, whatever happens in politics.

Achilles said...

"The public schools aren't teaching good character, and they'd do fanstastically better out of that environment. But it wouldn't change the IQ scores."

IQ tests are not standardized and weighting of different subjects is off. There is huge subjective bias involved.

IQ tests are written by intellectuals who magically score higher than everyone else. Self awareness is not one of the areas covered by IQ tests and is probably one of the most important.

n.n said...

The public schools are not the problem per se. Every American institution has been infiltrated by alien influence. Even the last bastion of resistance in the military has suffered a progressive breach through the Church's works. Americans are fighting the long retreat. I think it was Christianity that first predicted the progress of a twilight quasi-religion with a notably material orientation. Then again, while progress is a monotonic process, it is also unqualified, and with a notoriously selective outlook which engenders corruption, confusion, and chaos. Think of Iraq following Obama's premature evacuation, or Libya following Clinton's social justice adventurism.

AReasonableMan said...

Achilles said...
IQ tests are written by intellectuals who magically score higher than everyone else.


I kind of agree with this. The first step when observing the typical academic change a flat tire should be to call 911.

Achilles said...

Blogger AReasonableMan said...
"I think these comments effectively answer what was a good question."

Don't worry. We expect sarcasm from the left during any serious discussion. There is no serious thinking on the left anymore.

n.n said...

The good character of Posterity originates with the individual; is biased by Mom, Dad, and other near influences; and is normalized or reinforced by the People (e.g. community) and Church (i.e. organized moral or behavioral center).

Achilles said...

Blogger AReasonableMan said...
Achilles said...
IQ tests are written by intellectuals who magically score higher than everyone else.

"I kind of agree with this. The first step when observing the typical academic change a flat tire should be to call 911."

Is there anything more useless to society than an intellectual who lacks self awareness? The IQ test is merely a sop to make useless people feel better. The average black person with an "86" IQ would be more useful to society if they weren't put into hellholes run by douchebags who scored "150." Inner city governments are run and dominated by high IQ jerks who make black peoples lives miserable.

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

Scene: a forest, far from the city with its corruption and untrustworthy elites.

Montag arrives at the front gate. He addresses two people: one female person of colour in style of professor/fake peasant (work shirt, jeans, fashionable combat boots); the other white male in fraying nerd clothes.
Montag: I'm ....
Prof and Nerd in unison: We know who you are. Have you memorized a book?
Montag: Book? What's a book? Who are you?
Prof and Nerd:
We're a minority of undesirables
crying out in the wilderness.

But it won't always be so.
One day we shall be called on, one by one, to recite what we've learned.
And then books will be printed again.

Unfortunately, we are split into two camps: basket of deplorables (BD), and baristas in the basement (BB). You must choose between the two.

Montag: I must say I wasn't expecting this. I struggle to remember something I've read on the Internet for five minutes.

Prof and Nerd: You can choose the books you prefer. Nerd: The BDs memorize The Art of the Deal, Iacocca, and Leadership by Guiliani. Prof: the BBs memorize The Whole Earth Catalogue, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and Outsider in the White House by the great Bernie Sanders.

Prof and Nerd together: There was originally one big oval track here we could all walk while we memorized and recited. Unfortunately,the track has been split, and we regularly trip over each other. Still, it's better than living under the oligopoly of crooks.

EDH said...

When enough Bernie people take up the challenge to start small businesses, like George McGovern?

A Politician's Dream Is a Businessman's Nightmare: A 1992 column on the realities of running a business

George McGovern
WSJ Commentary, Oct. 21, 2012 10:57 a.m. ET

Wisdom too often never comes, and so one ought not to reject it merely because it comes late.

-- Justice Felix Frankfurter

Yancey Ward said...

The Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street crowd had a lot in common. What kept them from coalescing into one political unit is that they disagreed which side the federal government was on. It isn't impossible that Occupy members eventually realize the source of the problem. However, a key clue for them should be the intensity of support from D.C. itself for the two major candidates, along with who the media is supporting. Until the Millenials figure that out, there is no chance of such a political realignment. I am guessing they won't figure it out until they reach their 40s.

buwaya puti said...

Lloyd,
Well done.
You are coming closer to the truth than is comfortable. The silliest people in the universities these days can be dismissed as a minority of cranks, but the truth is that they are your next leaders. And the books will burn.
They may be preserved in non-volatile storage in China or Russia until the time of troubles passes.

buwaya puti said...

Canaries in the coal mine -
San Francisco public Middle and High Schools last year and this year, I have seen personally, have purged Orson Scott Card's "Enders Game" from the stacks. It used to be this was a perennial in assigned reading but no more. I was never too fond of that, there are better books IMHO, but even so. It was one of the few things even vaguely appealing to a person of testosterone, and its only saving grace to the powers that be was that it is a veiled criticism of militarism and the Cold War. The purpose of effective banning was political and cultural, because Card is now persona non grata to TPTB.
Expect much, much more of this.

Jupiter said...

FIDE, the World Chess Federation, has decided that next year's championships will be held in Iran. It is apparently the law in Iran that women must wear hijabs, and FIDE is telling the female chess players that they will have to compete in hijabs. Some of them are not pleased. I wonder if "trans femmes" have to wear hijab. Can I get a ruling?

Jupiter said...

Plus, who knew; there is a US Women's chess champion, named Nazi Paikidze (spellcheck objects to her last name, but not her first). I can understand why there are separate competitions for women in track and field and tennis, and even golf, but chess?

buwaya puti said...

The child is the father of the man ... -Wordsworth

The certainly don't teach Wordsworth, or Longfellow, or Blake, or Shakespeare, or anything at all other than their political tracts.

I have seen those children, that next generation, those men of the future. I hope for all your sakes that your next leaders, or more likely those who come after them are a set of races with roots in Hong Kong, Shanghai, Bangalore and Chennai. They really are your only hope, rescue through replacement of your leadership class by rational foreigners.

coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rhhardin said...

IQ tests are not standardized and weighting of different subjects is off. There is huge subjective bias involved.

I don't know what goes into them but it seems to be a rigorous science. They know very well what factors have to be unconfounded from each other. It's supposed to measure something you're born with independent of all that stuff, including age.

IQ by country pdf

It doesn't seem very subjective to me.

They certainly know what criticisms are out there; only a novel criticism would cover new ground they'd have to reconsider at this point.

exiledonmainstreet said...

The purpose of effective banning was political and cultural, because Card is now persona non grata to TPTB.
Expect much, much more of this.

10/2/16, 12:44 PM

Not just bookbanning either. I predict that within a few years, clergy (Christian, not Muslim) will be sued and jailed if they refuse to marry gays in church. What has happened in China will happen here (in fact, it already has, if you take a look at PC mainline Protestantism): there will be churches which toe the government line and are tolerated and churches which will be persecuted and driven underground. And the media will cheer it on because we should be diverse and tolerant and that's what you get when you don't get with the program, haters!

In the meantime, gays in the Middle East will continue to meet up with the pavement in a most unpleasant way.

buwaya puti said...

In tutoring math in schools as a volunteer - well, one does not tutor the best, certainly, but as a rule you get those who are at least aspirational, who want to do better, and that counts for a lot.
Just some observations.
There is much less wrong with their character than their skill. But their skills are terrible, all skills.
Its the case that whatever these poor kids are lacking in mathematics, they are far, far worse off in curiosity (about anything), general knowledge, language and ability to reason.
I used to throw in bits of, say, Longfellow or Blake, to get them to think a bit outside of pure algorithmic solutions, but that is a frustrating path. They simply havent got the background in complex thought, and this goes about the same for their brighter peers.

Kathryn51 said...

Ann Althouse said...
Obviously, both groups are economic losers.

I'm floored - is this part of your hypothesis or do you truly believe this?

What is your definition of "economic loser"? People don't make as much money as lawyers? as much as politicians? hedge fund managers?

I know many small business people (dress shop owner; hair salon owner; landscape business; real estate developer) that are going to vote for Trump. All of them are successful, pay their taxes, support their community. Are they economic "losers"

Without a doubt they fall into Hillary's "basket of deplorables" but I don't think there is one that feels any affinity for the slackers that abound amongst the Millennials.

Professor - do you personally know anyone that strongly supports Trump?

rhhardin said...

Vicki Hearne, a great writer on philosophical and social matters, suggested that IQ tests test how quickly you can believe things, and minorities do worse because of slowness in believing stuff, a kind of knowledge that quick believers lack.

Testing how quickly you can believe things is a a great line.

I don't think it's true for IQ tests, but it's a great line; get the upper hand from the bottom.

sunsong said...

“For instance all outcome-based affirmative action laws can't work because the IQ of US blacks is 86. “
~ rhhardin

“The focus here is wrong rhardin. Instead of focusing on the genetic aspect focus on the environmental aspect. Their IQs would be higher if they weren't forced into shitty progressive dominated public schools.”
~ Achilles

“ The public schools aren't teaching good character, and they'd do fanstastically better out of that environment. But it wouldn't change the IQ scores.”
~ rhhardin

Deplorable. Idiotic. Unbearable. Tragic and RACIST
Those people ( and they are NOT a majority of Trump fans ) will be more and more seen for what they are, I believe. And they will continue to express their racism, sexism, homophobia, Islamaphobia , and fear of others including other countries.

The economy is rigged…by the wealthy
That’s why Trump could pay no taxes whatsoever on a nine million dollar yearly income.
The billionaires write the tax laws. Why lie to yourselves about that?

Unknown said...

Althouse, you're wrong on Clinton's meaning of who the deplorables are. It has nothing to do with their earning potential. It has to do with political philosophy. The deplorables are the outright racists and bigots who have glommed on to Trump because what he says resonates with them. There will be no merger of both groups because they are diametrically opposed in their world views.

Unknown said...

And yes, not all of Trump followers are members of the deplorables, but too many of them are.

Unknown said...

Read rhhardin, his comments about women and minorities puts him squarely in the basket of deplorables.

Achilles said...

"I don't know what goes into them but it seems to be a rigorous science. They know very well what factors have to be unconfounded from each other. It's supposed to measure something you're born with independent of all that stuff, including age.

IQ by country pdf

It doesn't seem very subjective to me.

They certainly know what criticisms are out there; only a novel criticism would cover new ground they'd have to reconsider at this point."

1. These are the same people who are calling global warming science.

2. What is intelligence? Is it how fast you can memorize? Is it your ability to plot limits? Can you convince a group of people of something that isn't true?

By definition IQ is subjective. The armed forces have a similar test. SAT, LSAT, etc. Every test is subjective in the determination of subject matter.

tcrosse said...

Life under President Trump would be dog-eat-dog. Under Hillary it would be the other way around.

buwaya puti said...

Sunsong,

Try tutor calculus sometime. Or train people in CNC setup and programming. You will quickly become a believer in IQ. There is no good substitute fir this stuff. Down at the coalface, outside of politics, this is real. And this is one of the places this society is failing, being unable to face facts, it insists on comfortable fantasies.

Unknown said...

False equivalencies don't cut it anymore. Trump as President would be an unmitigated disaster. The man is completely unfit to hold the office.

buwaya puti said...

IQ is very highly correlated with all the Armed Forces aptitude tests.
IQ no doubt is at the root of why one kid will do all simple integration problems perfectly upon being shown how, once, while another will still get nothing right after diligently working through twenty examples.
That first kid may well be an unreliable slacker and the second one who you could trust with your life, but their mental abilities certainly arent equal.

buwaya puti said...

The present US political system is an unmitigated disaster.
Full stop. Its crushing everything. Only the stored capital - material, institutional, human - of centuries is holding things up, but this capital is being rapudly drawn down.
Unknown here is one of the Wormtongues, the drawers-down, the destroyers of your capital.

Achilles said...

Blogger Unknown said...
"And yes, not all of Trump followers are members of the deplorables, but too many of them are."

We are not the problem nor are we the racists. The progressives have built and maintained all of the institutions that plague black people in this country. Progressives run the public schools that are failing them on purpose. They run the inner cities that are turning into hellholes because of progressive policy by design. They run the colleges that are turning out graduates and dropouts with more and more debt and worthless studies degrees.

And to mask your failure you cry racist. You are the racist.

Paco Wové said...

Quick, somebody fetch Sunsong her smelling salts.

As has been mentioned earlier, the comments here are good data for the argument that any sort of 'coming together' is unlikely.

Yancey Ward said...

Like Buwaya, I have have tutored people in science in mathematics, and I can tell you without any real doubt IQ is a real thing, and it is all but certain that standard IQ tests pick up on this difference in mental acuity in a nearly objective fashion. You can always tell the people who are simply doing things by rote and those whose understanding is much deeper.

Now, having written that, there are other kinds of intelligence that are beneficial, and it is clear to me that not all them are well-correlated with the things the Standford-Binet test will measure, and I would argue that a good number of high IQ people are deficient in a lot of these areas.

Paco Wové said...

Perhaps the ever-increasing polarization and division of the populace is actively encouraged by those in charge as a way of preventing such a merger.

Anglelyne said...

Achilles: By definition IQ is subjective. The armed forces have a similar test. SAT, LSAT, etc. Every test is subjective in the determination of subject matter.

But strangely, all those utterly "subjective" tests correlate.

It's almost as if some people really are more intelligent than other people, no matter what kind of test you come up with.

Achilles: IQ tests are written by intellectuals who magically score higher than everyone else.

This reminds me of the people who sneer that "IQ tests are written by people whose own race magically scores higher than everyone else". Except, they're not and they don't.

cubanbob said...

Unknown said...
False equivalencies don't cut it anymore. Trump as President would be an unmitigated disaster. The man is completely unfit to hold the office.

10/2/16, 1:42 PM"

So I gather you are not voting for the criminal and traitor. Now that would be an unmitigated disaster and beyond any consideration of fitness for anything other than a long prison term.

Sunsong I'm sure you can find low IQ people who can design spacecraft.

Unknown said...

Cubanbob, so Trump is the cat's meow to Cuban immigrants, huh? I bet they love him for trying to do business in Cuba during the embargo. I bet Trump will get lots and lots of votes from Cuban Americans.

buwaya puti said...

The division of the populace is a natural consequence of a divergence of interests. The degenerate parts of the populace, those who are sufficiently perverted and demoralized as to prefer life granted by the state, to live on the corn-dole and be entertained by circuses, are the natural clients of those patricians who grant them their subsistence.

The middle, those self-supporting citizens, landowners, settlers in the coloniae, their interests are fundamentally opposed to the clients and would-be clients of the patriciate.

Sanders people and OWS seem to me to consist mainly of would-be clients.

rhhardin said...

[on IQ remarks] Deplorable. Idiotic. Unbearable. Tragic and RACIST
Those people ( and they are NOT a majority of Trump fans ) will be more and more seen for what they are, I believe. And they will continue to express their racism, sexism, homophobia, Islamaphobia , and fear of others including other countries.


In a curious reversal, the literal racists (like myself - average US black IQ is 86) are the ones who wish the blacks well, and the left wishes the blacks ill, if nothing else than through perverse consequences.

Perhaps some difference can be found between the redneck racist and the modern racist that's worth noticing.

Forget outcome-based affirmative action - it makes everything worse - and go with good character. Good character gets you a job, for instance.

At least if PC hasn't defined good character out of existence.

Jupiter said...

sunsong said...

"Deplorable. Idiotic. Unbearable. Tragic and RACIST"

Mmm, yes. Probably Islamophobic, too. But true. Accurate. Correct.

It's genetics, sunsong. And it's coming for your pious certainties. And it is going to rip them to shreds.

Unknown said...

"And to mask your failure you cry racist. You are the racist."

As I said, false equivolencies just don't cut it anymore. The real racists who are the deplorables Clinton speaks of are obvious to anyone with a normal IQ, speaking of IQs. If you don't consider yourself a racist or a deplorable don't put a man who white supremacists love in the White House. Think about why they love him, what does he say that so resonates with them?

Jupiter said...

As to the coming together of the Bern-outs and the Deplorables, I think it will occur, to an extent. As the Bern-outs get older, they will get wiser. We all do. Many of them will come to realize that the Professors who told them all those fatuous lies were, at the same time, chaining a millwheel of debt around their necks before kicking them into the deep end. And the Profs did it simply so they could lead a comfortable and undemanding life while priding themselves on their immense but cost-free virtue. We may hope that at some point the peasants will get out their pitchforks.

Unknown said...

"And it's coming for your pious certainties. And it is going to rip them to shreds."

Oh bullshit.

buwaya puti said...

As for unbearable - unreconstructed troglodytes like myself, those who actually make stuff out of rocks, seem to deal quite well with starry eyed fantasists like Sunsong, at least as far as not blowing up at every expression of silliness. A roll of the eyes and get back to facts and reason and getting things done.
The opposite though does not seem to be possible. Any opposition to the feeling-based positions of the PC is apparently unbearable.

Unknown said...

" We may hope that at some point the peasants will get out their pitchforks."

Keepin' the dream alive, lol. Don't hold your breath. More than half of America which includes people from all walks of life will not ever join any treasonaous plots against the government. All you wanna be insurrectionsists are pathetic.

rhhardin said...

On IQ, it can't be white supremacists. Hong Kong and Singapore both average 108; Ashkenazi Jews 115.

Unknown said...

It's interesting how everyone here wants to be a deplorable, lol. So are you all white supremacists or something?

buwaya puti said...

You know, speaking as a foreigner and a (partial) Asian, white supremacists dont seem like an ultimate evil, frankly. They seem more like a rhetorical construction, Orwells Snowball (its obvious that such characters as Unknown don't do Orwell).
The schools dont do Orwell anymore btw.
I expect his stuff will be very early in the furnace-chute.

Unknown said...

Interesting how the George Orwell fans don't see the danger of an Orwellian future under Trump. Why so blind? Why so confused?

rhhardin said...

It's interesting how everyone here wants to be a deplorable, lol. So are you all white supremacists or something?

The world works better if you can say what you notice.

That would include blacks noticing ill treatment, which may happen if they don't stay with PC.

buwaya puti said...

It is quite a romantic fantasy to be "deplorable".
The Les Miserables positioning is very apt. You will see this in every case of populist agitation and propaganda, ever, from the Paris tracts of 1789 to the lyrics of the Internationale. A populace ripe for a populist revolt (of any kind) certainly does see that it is perceived as "deplorable", and tends to take that as both a reason to take offense against their "betters" as well as a badge of distinction. The Paris mob knew that the aristos thought of them as canaille.
That was a good reason to take the aristos to the lanterne.
Ca ira.

buwaya puti said...

Orwellian future under Trump?
How do you get there from there?
Have you read Orwell?
Your Orwellian future is right here, now, actually.
Owned and operated by your friends.

Unknown said...

More bullshit. So much bullshit on these threads from Trumpists. I think that it will take some time after he loses for them to get he stink off of themselves.

buwaya puti said...

The Internationale is an interesting rhetorical case.
Is being happy to be "deplorable" different in condition than to be proud of being "damnes de la terre" ?
That was a damned popular song.
Granted the Internationale was eventually sung mostly by people who were not in any way lacking in power and material comfort, but at one time this was not so.

rhhardin said...

More bullshit. So much bullshit on these threads from Trumpists. I think that it will take some time after he loses for them to get he stink off of themselves.

Go for good character.

rhhardin said...

A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of political correctness.

buwaya puti said...

Er, Unknown, you arent in the spirit of this. Dispute, use knowledge, erudition, logic, make something of yourself, surprise with your wit, use your rapier expertly against your enemies. You wander here, all hairy, ill-groomed, ill-washed, foul-mouthed, wielding a club, and that simply won't do.

I recommend education. Consider a study of Rostand's Cyrano, or for that matter, Sabatini's Scaramouche.

Michael K said...

"don't put a man who white supremacists love in the White House."

I see Inga/Unknown leftist is back.

The communist party endorsed Hillary but that's OK because you are a member or at least a fellow traveler.

This is so silly.

n.n said...

If the "basement people" are ever to emerge from the twilight zone, they will need to deny their gods and quasi-religion, and reconcile moral, natural, and personal imperatives.

That said, this is a leverage game. Once people discover their principles, they will be able to stand their ground against class diversitists, abortionists, social justice adventurists, progressive warriors, selective exclusionists, female (and male) chauvinists, anti-native planners, green blighters, trickle-up poverty mongers, scientific mystics, and other acolytes of the Pro-Choice Church. Then the baby hunts will end, the baby trials will be overturned in a final solution, and Planned Parenthood will be cannibalized and redistributed.

buwaya puti said...

White supremacy has a very short life left as a rhetorical trope, because the coming master-class isnt "white".
And of course those whites that "white supremacy" is being used against aren't actually "supreme" anyway.

HT said...

Some of the predictions are so wordy and silly. Why would the question be asked of people who have no idea? The fact is that many Bernie supporters were already involved in different things and then hitched up to the candidate, with varying levels of enthusiasm and dedication. They will go back to what they were doing before he came along. It's not like they think everything hinges on who is president.

chickelit said...

Michael K said...I see Inga/Unknown leftist is back.

What's scary is that Hillary and Inga are the same cohort: age, sex, upbringing.

Jupiter said...

Are there really white supremacists? I guess to me, a white supremacist is like, the Aftikaners, or the antebellum American southerners. Someone who literally advocates the disenfranchisement of all non-whites, with the idea that whites should rule over all others. I suppose there may be a few running around somewhere, but I think most unapologetic white racists are more like John Derbyshire. His commitment to Whiteness Triumphant is so intense that he married a Chinese woman. But he was expelled from National Review for the thought-crime of noticing that blacks are dangerous, particularly in groups. Of course, all non-blacks know that, as you can tell if you consider their living arrangements, rather than their self-satisfied pronouncements.

I will point out, that if the liberal fantasy of happy integration were a reality, "blacks" would cease to exist in America, as their genetic material vanished into the melting pot. Not bloody likely. It's like Star Trek; here is the Starship Enterprise, 200 years from now, the glorious fruit of the peaceful integration of all Terra's nations into the Federation. And half the officers are crudely stereotypical physical types speaking English with some corny accent. Of course, the crew are all Deplorables, and indeed Expendables.

sunsong said...

buwaya,

Try tutor calculus sometime. Or train people in CNC setup and programming. You will quickly become a believer in IQ. There is no good substitute fir this stuff. Down at the coalface, outside of politics, this is real. And this is one of the places this society is failing, being unable to face facts, it insists on comfortable fantasies.


You are expressing the idiotic spectrum here. Intelligence is the ability to process your thoughts and emotions and learn from the process. Blacks do that very well. The chauvinistic IQ definition is designed to RESULT in low numbers for minorities.

To be good at math or science is wonderful, as it is to be a poet or a gardener, but it is not determinative of intelligence.

cubanbob said...

Unknown said...
Cubanbob, so Trump is the cat's meow to Cuban immigrants, huh? I bet they love him for trying to do business in Cuba during the embargo. I bet Trump will get lots and lots of votes from Cuban Americans"

First your assertion about Trump has yet to be verified as true. Second it wasn't Trump who opened relations with Cuba, your guy Obama is responsible for that. Third Trump for all his failings isn't a fascist, grifter, criminal and traitor. I'm sure Trump won't be getting the criminal vote, the grifter vote, the crony capitalist vote, the parasite gimme dat vote. He's not Hillary. And by the way, Trump is getting most of the Cuban vote.

Luke Lea said...

Hillary's disdain for both groups, and this from a woman running as a Democrat, is what I find deplorable . . . and inexplicable. Fifteen years ago she was criticizing mass illegal immigration for much the same reasons as Trump is today. You can view it on YouTube. What happened? Has she no principles? And then when she became Senator from New York she voted for the war in Iraq not because she really favored it, I suspect, but because, given her countercultural background, she did not want to appear weak on the military. In other words, for political ambition. Is she a Lady Macbeth? How come no one makes the obvious point that she got where she is today not on her own as a woman, but because she was married to a previous President. Indeed, why did she marry Bill in the first place? To hitch herself to a shooting star? I find her despicable.

Jupiter said...

sunsong said...
buwaya,

"You are expressing the idiotic spectrum here."

Got that, buwaya? Knock it off with the idiotic spectrum expressing, OK?

cubanbob said...

"To be good at math or science is wonderful, as it is to be a poet or a gardener, but it is not determinative of intelligence."

God spare us from such tripe. Tell us O Wise One what are the odds a gardener can be a rocket scientist versus the odds a rocket scientist can be a really good gardener. Here is a clue: the ability to do things that require high level cognition is determinative of intelligence.

Luke Lea said...

Speaking of Lady MacBeth: https://goo.gl/YPRLrB

Char Char Binks said...

Are baristas necessarily lefty Bernie-backing hipsters? I'm not saying they aren't, and probably they are, in general, but do we really know that?

Paco Wové said...

Sunsong, I for one am glad you've moved beyond the point-and-sputter technique of argumentation. That said:

"Intelligence is the ability to process your thoughts and emotions and learn from the process.": I have never heard this as a definition of 'intelligence' before. Where does it come from?.

"Blacks do that very well.": They do? How do we know?

"The chauvinistic IQ definition is designed to RESULT in low numbers for minorities.": That's a strong accusation, do you have evidence? Also interesting in light of the fact that some minorities do extremely well on standard IQ tests. I would think if they were indeed 'chauvinistic', then the chauvinists would make sure they came out on top.

"To be good at math or science is wonderful, as it is to be a poet or a gardener, but it is not determinative of intelligence.": Not determinative. But a pretty strong correlation, no?

richardsson said...

Well, I doubt that these two groups, lets called them the deplorables and the basement dwellers, will merge for all sorts of reasons. These are profoundly disillusioned people but for very different reasons. The institutions they relied on for their security have failed them. The unions failed the deplorables because their weapons for maintaining power became obsolete. For the basement dwellers, their disillusionment began the day their job seeking began. That degree that cost so much money and was so esteemed had turned to bullshit. Actually, many of us who graduated in the 70's had the same "coming to grips" moment but at least our debts were not soul breaking. For the basement dwellers there will be at least a decade of Kubler Ross stages of mourning: RIP BA MA PhD JD. The turn to the left---Bernie---was foreseeable. It's all they've known. But Bernie is the personification of the left. He never had a stable source of income until he got elected to public office. HE COULD NOT EVEN SUPPORT HIMSELF.

I think both the deplorables and the basement dwellers will come to realize that neither Hillary nor Trump has the answer to their problems. The answer to their problems are what they've always been: cleverness and adaptability.

buwaya puti said...

Sunsong, your argument is semantic. You want to define intelligence your way. Which is fine as far as it goes, but it's just dodging the point. Let's take it another way - call it x, defined as a general factor that determines a host of economically valuable traits, which for some reason seem to go together, are highly correlated. So people with x tend to learn math well, are good technical troubleshooters, write good code quickly, play chess well, etc. ad infinitum. X is important. People pay premiums for x.
Intelligence as you define it, not so much.
Chinese peasants, even those from rural Fujian (Chinas Dogpatch) have x. I haven't had a single Chinese math student, and this in a city full of FOB Chinese from poor backgrounds. And to your point about it as a specific skill set - those ace Chinese math students do darned well on English tests in spite of it being a foreign language (here) for most of them. And pretty much everything really, they are high performers on everything you test them on. Except being large, tall, or physically powerful.

wildswan said...

I think that if people could be got to think that there was a way to improve the economy, that there was a way in which they could have a job then they would stop fighting about how much welfare there should be. If the basement dweller and the deplorable were getting cash in their pockets as they worked together building a pipeline or as they worked together in a manufacturing sector somewhat restored by cheap energy or if they both worked in a thriving artisanal sector resting on a restored manufacturing sector - or if they could form the picture of that happening if they voted for the right party - then they would vote together. It's the hidden assumption about the job situation and the possibility of that improving that divides them: basement dwelling Trogs think there is no way to get a job and the Deplorables think the Trogs aren't working on purpose because Trogs are lazy and want the Deplorables' money which is in short supply due to the work situation which keeps deteriorating. Neither thinks: a politician could improve this, globalization could have been done better. Neither thinks: and even now globalization could be improved to our benefit. Stop trying to abolish fossil fuels, nations and culture by order of the judge. If you can't persuade, do you really have an argument?

Anglelyne said...

buwaya puti: I hope for all your sakes that your next leaders, or more likely those who come after them are a set of races with roots in Hong Kong, Shanghai, Bangalore and Chennai. They really are your only hope, rescue through replacement of your leadership class by rational foreigners.

No thanks, bp. As far as I can see, lots of "future leaders" here with roots in Hong Kong, etc. are here to pursue their own interests, not to join and share a national destiny with we deplorables, and appear to very well-integrated into the useful interest-advancing vehicle that is the West's rotten leadership class. Not being infected by virulent soixante-huitardisme is a fine thing in a leadership class, but not in itself a sufficient qualification for running the show for any particular people.

Though we could probably do worse than letting you be king for a season or two.

Anglelyne said...

Jupiter: Are there really white supremacists? I guess to me, a white supremacist is like, the Aftikaners, or the antebellum American southerners. Someone who literally advocates the disenfranchisement of all non-whites, with the idea that whites should rule over all others.

No, there are no white "supremacists". What there are are white people reacting in an entirely predictable way to the preceding decades of identity politics.

They exist on some "identitarian" spectrum, at one end of which are "white nationalists", and, at the other, lots of white people who've figured out that the "non-racist" game doesn't work if there's one set of rules for whitey and a different set of rules for everybody else.

chickelit said...

buwaya puti: Your anecdotes are pretty much correct, but you are leaving out the part which began happening about 20 years ago or so. This is when American science (chemistry at least) said "there are just too many white men in math and science: we need to start actively recruiting women and minorities." This became a mantra for the American Chemical Society's flagship publication, Chemical & Engineering News and the newly hired (female) editor, Madeleine Jacobs. And so it went. Just like that.

When Republican political leaders conspired with Democratic leaders to begin replacing both low-skilled and highly-skilled professions was the beginning of political Trump appeal as we know it. If they had simply stuck to importing low-skilled workers, they'd probably still be getting away with it.

Michael K said...

Chinese math students do darned well on English tests in spite of it being a foreign language (here) for most of them. And pretty much everything really, they are high performers on everything you test them on. Except being large, tall, or physically powerful.

I don't disagree except that my Asian students have a real problem with social signaling. We used to have a workshop on taking a sexual history from a patient. These were all trained actors who were supposed to respond according to a script.

About half the Asian students, most Chinese American, were unable to ask the questions or deal with ambiguity.

One example, a male patient comes into an ER with symptoms fairly typical of AIDS. The student is supposed to ask if the person has sex with females or males. The scenario answer was "Well, I like girls." The students, about half the Asian students, did not ask any followup questions.

Sexual history was no big deal when I was a student but that was before AIDS became a huge problem in the 80s.

It's a little like mild Aspergers. Aspergers also goes with math skills.

It may be cultural but I had a Lebanese student who told me he would have a hard time asking sexual questions of a female patient but he adapted well and became one of my best and most empathetic students.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

Bullshit. Hammond is voting Libertarian.

buwaya puti said...

Customer service and salesmanship are where Chinese don't do well. That I think is a cultural problem, as they do just fine with each other. I wouldn't rule out a general mild Aspergers either.
Indians though can be very much the opposite, some are great salesmen.

The collapse of most American professional associations began I think when corporatism began to bite hard, when manipulating rules began to trump operations and technology. If it doesn't matter that you have the best worker bees in your core business then other goals take over. There are fashions in management, and these take over when the business is insulated from the cold world.

HT said...

It's folly to expect people allied with Bernie to give up their environmental work. The same as asking Trump supporters to give up the immigration fight, which is the one obvious area of potential commonality given the economic consequences of illegal immigration.

Milwaukie guy said...

IQ is also cultural. In studies done of army recruits during WW1 and WW2 it was found, for example, that second generation immigrants from say Poland or Italy in WW2, had a 10 point increase in IQ over the their first generation fathers.

America, where the brilliance can just rob off onto you.

Milwaukie guy said...

rub off [dammit]

rhhardin said...

had a 10 point increase in IQ over the their first generation fathers.

That's the sort of data that would get them to fix the test. They're interested in the genetics, not the social influence.

Paco Wové said...

Spurred by Sunsong's first post, I searched for Crimestop at Ye Olde Wikipediæ. I had forgotten how perfectly Orwell foresaw our current mode of political discourse:

Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.

buwaya puti said...

Forgot that, thanks Paco.
You see, there are good reasons to "forget" Orwell.

Fabi said...

It's been a long time since I read that, Paco Wové. He was only off in his predictions by a few decades.

Harold said...

Milwaukie guy said...
IQ is also cultural. In studies done of army recruits during WW1 and WW2 it was found, for example, that second generation immigrants from say Poland or Italy in WW2, had a 10 point increase in IQ over the their first generation fathers.


Partially cultural, no argument. Partially.

Also nutrition dependent. Google iodine and IQ. Lot's of studies on iodine. In particular, Kazakhstan conducted a nationwide experiment with it. Well, not really experiment- because everyone knew what the end result would be. This
is an article on that.

I have read that efforts in different African countries have been made to devise any kind of written test where blacks perform better then whites or Asians. And that to date, the efforts have been futile. If you buy into the idea that the tests show differences between identifiable groups only because they're biased that way, then you should be able to devise a test showing biasing it to favor the unfavored group. But apparently, it cannot be done.

MPH said...

Impossible. The primary motivating factor for the barista set is status.

Achilles said...

Blogger Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...
"Bullshit. Hammond is voting Libertarian."

Who in this race is the libertarian?

Rusty said...

Blogger Unknown said...
"Interesting how the George Orwell fans don't see the danger of an Orwellian future under Trump. Why so blind? Why so confused?"

buwaya puti said...
"Orwellian future under Trump?
How do you get there from there?
Have you read Orwell?
Your Orwellian future is right here, now, actually.
Owned and operated by your friends."

Because, my dear friend, his future has come round at last. he does not see political power as an instrument of democracy. He sees political power as an instrument to punish. He is enjoying the direction the country is going. His greatest fear is that the republic will somehow survive.

David said...

The barrrista crowd is so thoroughly indoctrinated and socially conditioned that there is little hope of this happening, absent a large scale economic or other disaster that confronts them with reality.

Francisco D said...

As a former organizational psychologist turned clinician, I assure you that "measured intelligence" used to be the most studied research subject among psychologists, until it became politically incorrect.

IQ is culturally determined, but that is not very important. What matters is what measured intelligence predicts.

Frank Schmidt and John Hunter (I/O psychologists from Michigan State) have done some of the most extensive and impressive research correlating measured intelligence with job outcomes, using tens of thousands of studies.

IQ is undeniably the best SINGLE predictor of positive job and educational outcomes. There is no real debate there. Of course, there are other factors that we use, along with IQ, to hire people or select college students.

It is unfortunate that longstanding group differences in IQ make people uncomfortable. I don't know why we have those differences, but I suspect is has more to do with parenting than schools. Teach your infants to be curious and reward young children for exploring and asking questions. Make them exercise their brains.

Static Ping said...

Ann, I compliment you on a good question. If you could convince both the Tea Party and the Sanders folks that both parties are playing them for suckers, then I could see a coalition. It is a very dangerous coalition, perhaps violently revolutionary. Both parties seem to be insistent on making that impression these days between Hillary treating Sanders supporters as useful idiots and the Republican establishment seemingly more upset with the Tea Party than anything the Democratic Party does.

A few years ago, I found the idea that there was no difference between the political parties to be silly. Today, I am not so sure. I think one is more likely to work in my interests than the other, but I am not confident that when faced with any adversity at all that the Republicans will do anything other than bluster and then give the other party 100% of what it wants. It is starting to seem like it is all theater for my benefit.