October 26, 2011

At Occupy Wall Street, "children are becoming an increasing presence..."

"... as parents try to seize a 'teachable moment' to enlighten them on matters ranging from income inequality to the right to protest."

The NYT paints a pretty picture of the practice of taking little kids to protests. I think it's a terrible idea to bring children. I wouldn't expose a child to the various health hazards (including loud noise), and I don't think it's right to use children as props. If the child isn't old enough to understand what is going on and to choose to go, it's exploitation. Now, I know the parents who spoke to the Times portrayed themselves as teaching their children about the protest, but why do you have to go down there in person to talk about the various political and economic issues? Why overwhelm a child with crowds and passionate adult expression? Are you really developing the child's mind? Or are these justifications you've made up after you've decided, for your own reasons, to drag your child along to something that's important to you?

92 comments:

Shouting Thomas said...

And, since the Occupy guys are turning violent in Oakland, one might assume that that's pretty likely to happen on Wall Street, too.

You want to place your kids in the middle of a rioting mob?

MarkG said...

People, noise, dirt, chaos, camping, chanting & songs. So much to see! To a kid, what's not to love?

Almost Ali said...

You want to place your kids in the middle of a rioting mob?

Only as human shields.

Andrea said...

My parents used to drag me and my sister out to the bar they frequented. One night we even got to see our dad get in a fist fight! It was a teachable moment, I tell ya.

(He won, BTW.)

Real American said...

maybe they want to see smelly dirty hippies doing drugs, defecating on police cars mindlessly banging drums, raping strangers and demanding free stuff from people who actually work for a living.

ALH said...

It is important to start the sense of entitlement early on in life, I suppose.

wv: consin

Mitochondri-Allie said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

MarkG said...

Ok, maybe not so much camping for the kids.

Petunia said...

Why? Because the parents are selfish, stupid people with a sense of entitlement.

Shouting Thomas said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

Since there hasn't been a single incident of law breaking or violence at Tea Party rallies, I'd suggest that taking your kid to one of those rallies (where some people are packing heat) is an excellent lesson in principled political action and Second Amendment rights.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to say that.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Yes, maybe those kiddies helped their parents make some of those nice signs that depicted Obama as a native with a bone through his nose.

Monkeyboy said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

But what about the rapes? How can they possibly learn about rapes at a tea party rally? There is also a discturbing lack of support for murderers and anti-semitism.

Fen said...

Mitochondri-Allie is hoping a kid gets shot in the head like the "marine" so he can argue "do it for the children!"

Shouting Thomas said...

Yes, maybe those kiddies helped their parents make some of those nice signs that depicted Obama as a native with a bone through his nose.

Haven't seen that. I think you're probably making that up.

Ridiculing politicians is pretty tame compared to rioting in the streets of Oakland and chucking bottles and rocks at cops.

Nice try at invoking the left's holy racism scam, though. Good effort. I'll bet you do it all the time.

EDH said...

What stuck out to me was that all of the parents profiled in the article formed a litany of frustrated "creative class" people.

"Magazine publisher... record label owner... screenwriter... photo editor... knitwear designer."

One recurring theme I detect at O[YC] is the hope that somehow other people can be made to pay them to produce shit that nobody would buy under any regime of choice.

I don't even think they would buy the same shit they produce if it were made by somebody else.

It's about their precious contribution, and why somebody else should pay them for it.

Shouting Thomas said...

So, Mitochondri-Allie, you've told us now how much you love blacks.

Now, tell us how this (OWS) is just like Selma 1965.

It's obvious, but I can't figure it out for my life.

Please fill in the blanks.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Fen, only a hater like you could even think such a thing, oh well you all just keep proving yourselves over and over again, haters, hypocrites and cowards.

Chip S. said...

Oh, it's a "teachable moment" alright. Reminds me of the time my folks took me out to the fairgrounds for a look at some carny chicks to scare me off meth.

(Complete factual accuracy not guaranteed.)

DADvocate said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

The only guns I saw were my son's 20 inch biceps.

How many children did you teach to paint Bush/Hitler signs? Or, show how to hang Bush in effigy? Or, teach how to use condoms and participate in bisexual activities? Or, show how to roll a joint or snort coke? Or, teach how to live in Mommy and Daddy's basement?

Shouting Thomas said...

Fen, only a hater like you could even think such a thing, oh well you all just keep proving yourselves over and over again, haters, hypocrites and cowards.

The rioters in Oakland are trying like crazy to produce martyrs to their cause.

Trouble is... nobody can figure out what in the hell their cause is.

Won't be long till the Occupy groups, like all the crazy 60s protest groups, start to produce a phalanx of fake veterans who are supposedly martyrs to the cause.

Revenant said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

The children were packing heat at Tea Party rallies? Dang, those 'bagger families mean business!

edutcher said...

Are we talking human shields here?

Afraid, if the NYPD moves in, this will save them?

You don't take a kid into an environment like this.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

And the only people who have acted badly at a Tea Party are the Purple-shirted goons of the SEIU.

None of the Tea Partiers has shot anybody yet, but the Sturm Abteilungen have busted some heads.

(and they didn't even get shot for that)

jim said...

Yes, how DARE parents engage their kids in what they're doing. Haven't they heard of X-BOX?

Now that the DFHs are starting to attack helpless police batons with their skulls, surely the fiends should be losing custody of those poor innocent children!

LOVE the (totally predictable) spin of "Protests Turn Violent" the moment the cops start up the ultraviolence routine. When you have no facts or logic on your side, there's always the iron fist. A lapdog media can always be relied on to blame the victims & thus (hopefully) discredit them. The cops, of course, have no real credibility to lose.

As has been said elsewhere, perhaps the most useful outcome of the Occupy protests is its public service of displaying with crystal clarity exactly who favors the rich & who favors the rest. The shills can't play Neutral Observer any more - not with protests going on around the globe. They know which side the vast majority of people are on, & it scares the hell out of them.

"First they ignore you, then they make fun of you, then they fight you, then you win."

Three down, one to go.

Shouting Thomas said...

They know which side the vast majority of people are on, & it scares the hell out of them.

I've been to the OWS encampment several times.

About 150 to 200 people there.

This strikes you as "the vast majority of people?"

You don't count so good, do you?

Revenant said...

First they ignore you, then they make fun of you, then they fight you, then you win.

And frankly I'm a little annoyed. The Oakland PD started fighting them even though the rest of us *totally* weren't done making fun of them yet.

There's a time and a place, is all I'm saying.

PETER V. BELLA said...

These people do not know how to or care how they raise their children.

Chip S. said...

"First they ignore you, then they make fun of you, then they fight you, then you win."

Three down, one to go.


Actually, Jim, I think most of us just oscillate between steps 1 and 2.

ricpic said...

The education of Red Diaper Doper Babies. You'd have to read David Horowitz's Radical Son to begin to understand the mindset of these parents. And even then it would strain credulity.

Shouting Thomas said...

The education of Red Diaper Doper Babies. You'd have to read David Horowitz's Radical Son to begin to understand the mindset of these parents. And even then it would strain credulity.

You know, I hadn't thought of that, but that is an old tradition in Manhattan.

The Red Diaper Babies used to also have summer camps in the Catskills. Indoctrination mixed with swimming and hiking.

Fen said...

Mitochondri-Allie: Fen, only a hater like you could even think such a thing,

But I got it from you. You're the one abusing an injured "marine" to rally people to your cause. So it only follows that you're hoping a child is likewise injured by police.

I bet you already have the posters made.

Carnifex said...

@ Mitochondri-allie

Project much? Those kids at the teaparties were safer there than Downtown anywhere now days weren't they?

Yeah your leftist policies have made such safe havens of such places as Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee. etc...

Name a city that's been an enclave of progressive policies, and I'll name a city that a rats nest of crime, drug abuse, and just filthy human beings. (that's even with their draconian anti -gun laws)

You must be so proud.

I am tired of suffering fools greatly. I ain't even gonna suffer them lessly. Wake the fuck up, or just shut the hell up, either way quit being so fucking dumb.

Eric said...

Sure, it's a teachable moment. "Look around, kid. This is how you'll end up if you borrow $150k to get a degree in The Classics."

bagoh20 said...

It's fine with me. The kids raises the average wisdom level a little. At least they probably know where not to poop. Explain to your kids why you are part of the group that poops on cars, and spreads your garbage, and leaves it for others to pick up. Let them take that lesson home too.

Eric said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

Heh. There were probably about the same percentage of open-carry Tea Partiers as there are OWS hippies defecating in public. I know who I'd rather have at my protest.

Petunia said...

I'm sure the liberals' kiddies here in Madison helped their parents make signs calling the Governor and other Republicans "Hitler" and "fascist", write obscenities and swastikas on the signs, shout down a teenage girl attempting to speak at the Palin rally, occupy the Capitol for weeks, send death threats to Republican legislators, etc., etc.

The OWS protestors haven't displayed ANYTHING with crystal clarity apart from their cluelessness and hypocrisy, as they drink their Starbucks coffee, wear their Abercrombie sweatshirts, and use their iPhones to rail against the eeeeeeevil corporations.

bagoh20 said...

Mommy, is this how you want me to behave, what you want me to become? Because, I think I was there when I was two, and you didn't appreciate my social consciousness then.

Chip Ahoy said...

Where 'teachable moment' means not having to find a babysitter.

YoungHegelian said...

"Son, smell that smell? That's what the whole house will smell like if you don't do your bathroom cleaning chores like your mom and I tell you to."

TmjUtah said...

It's only exploitation if the kid is standing on a sidewalk with a flag in one hand and popcorn in the other, on the fourth day in July.

Red tshirt, Guy Fawkes mask, and a half brick in their hand?

Useful fools are created, not born.

Monkeyboy said...

So OWS Oakland is causing rat problems, and sanitation problems (anyone want to guess where the storm drains go?) They are there without a permit, the cops move in and are met with rocks and water bottles. My guess is that the bottles are full of pee, its a tactic from the G20 riots.

Thats exactly where I would want to put my kids. "See monkeyboy jr., this is what Iraq smellied like, except it was hotter and the people were a lot less crazy."

Even if was the protest that is occuring only in lefty heads with evil pinkertons killing defensless wobblies...why would I bring my children to that one?

cassandra lite said...

Poor dears, they have to be taught early that it's a hard world to get a break in; all the good things have been taken.

Palladian said...

"Sure, it's a teachable moment. "Look around, kid. This is how you'll end up if you borrow $150k to get a degree in The Classics."

If only the douchebags had gotten degrees in the Classics! The Classics are total patriarchy, man! The hegemony of whiteness over the Other... that paradigm has, like, totally, totally collapsed! My degree is in Post-Colonial Studies!"

Chuck66 said...

My parents made me start delivering newspapers at age 8 (some from my older brothers route). And I started mowing lawns at age 12.

I think that is a better way to go then taking your kiddies to a bitch fest with a bunch of smelly hippies.

YoungHegelian said...

You might think that a bunch of folks who are suffused with green consciousness might think long and hard about the environmental damage their continuous stream of raw sewage going into the storm drains is doing.

You might think that. You would be wrong.

Palladian said...

The other day I saw a young, handsome "Occupy Wall Street" protestor, wearing expensive sunglasses and clean, well-fitting, quasi-military clothes, standing near the stairs down to the 6th Avenue F/M subway station, waiting for his friend who had gone into the corner store to buy a corporate beverage. He had a whole bundle of signs on wooden sticks bearing various neatly-written anti-corporate, anti-capitalist messages. Standing a few feet from him was a guy, probably from the Indian subcontinent, wearing a "sandwich board" type sign that read "Eyebrows Threading" and had information about a nearby salon that offered that service.

There is something meaningful to be discovered when contemplating that chance meeting of sign-bearers, I think.

Palladian said...

"You might think that. You would be wrong."

Organic fertilizer, man.

Alex said...

Tea Partiers pack heat, but they don't defecate on cop cars.

MayBee said...

Reminds me of the parents who used to put their babies in t-shirts calling Bush an idiot, etc.
I'm certain Althouse wrote about the phenomenon.

rcommal said...

...I don't think it's right to use children as props. If the child isn't old enough to understand what is going on and to choose to go, it's exploitation. ...

Hmmm. So many applications; which one or ones to choose.

walter said...

"If the child isn't old enough to understand what is going on and to choose to go, it's exploitation. Why overwhelm a child with crowds and passionate adult expression? Are you really developing the child's mind? Or are these justifications you've made up after you've decided, for your own reasons, to drag your child along to something that's important to you? "

Sounds like church on Sunday.

n.n said...

When income inequality is a concern, they are right in principle, but wrong in fact.

The issue of merit is not relative but absolute disparity. We should not envy legitimate success and the return that follows. We should be concerned about policies which promote progressive distortion of the market, thereby prompting further distortion through compensating measures of income redistribution. We should also avoid conflating necessity and luxury.

There is a reason why indigence, and even homelessness, is a progressive condition, and it is not helped by denying the existence of individuals who choose to fail, or an official ignorance of fundamental economic principles (i.e., independent of any particular philosophy).

The American welfare system promotes its own existence. It accomplishes little more than to promote corruption of individuals and society.

The "occupy" movement would do well to focus on corruption of authoritarian interests first and foremost. Once integrity is restored to our government, then a proper review can be held to assess corruption in the exception, and correct it through the rule of law.

Unless they intend to correct fundamental corruption, and corruption of authoritarian interests, their movement will foster a civil conflict which is not in anyone's best interest.

Revenant said...

Sounds like church on Sunday.

Although with more than the usual smell of marijuana and poo.

damikesc said...

M-A, I will bet the percentage of "racist" signs at the Tea Party rallies are dwarfed by the rank anti-Semitism of the Occupiers.

....and that whole rape problem

...and the violence issue

...and the public defecation

...and public sex

new york said...

There are certain things in our nation and in the world which I am proud to be maladjusted and which I hope all men of good-will will be maladjusted until the good societies realize — I say very honestly that I never intend to become adjusted to — segregation and discrimination. I never intend to become adjusted to religious bigotry. I never intend to adjust myself to economic conditions that will take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few. I never intend to adjust myself to the madness of militarism, to self-defeating effects of physical violence....It is no longer the choice between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence… MLK

Jamie said...

walter, you have a point - I am indeed trying to "indoctrinate" my children by taking them to church every week. (And making my oldest go to the youth Halloween party by means of being its organizer. Graveyard scavenger hunt by flashlight. A good time to be had by all.) But the experiences are not equivalent, are they? One promotes being nice to everyone you meet, even if they're not nice to you, as well as recognizing the great, um, siblinghood of humanity ("brotherhood of Man" just sounds better, I'm sorry), and the other promotes chanting negative slogans and scowling at people.

phx said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jamie said...

new york I yield to no one in my admiration for the great work of the civil rights movement and its prophet Dr. King. (I use the term "prophet" absolutely accurately. I wish I could have met him.) But this - "I never intend to adjust myself to economic conditions that will take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few" - is a false choice, and the past, oh, at least fifty years demonstrate that fact with crystal clarity.

I also should have added "at best" to the last sentence of my previous post.

(And lest anybody think my graveyard scavenger hunt is disrespectful of the dead in my churchyard, I'll say that I read every headstone in the place looking for items for the hunt, and came away elevated, moved, and crying; I anticipate a similar result for the kids, and they won't know what hit 'em.)

DADvocate said...

Time to take the children to the "What to and How to Throw Things At Police" class.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

LOL. And the fantasy life you'd prefer to raise them in, which is a world where economic power isn't challenged, is sooooo not dangerous. Whatever.

Tell them that your allies prefer they die if they don't have insurance, you coddled, privileged, sheltered sycophant.

(I say that respectfully, of course. Just trying to be as intentionally controversial as my host).

J said...

Moe Howard house!

featuring nn-Petunia-Rev, aka Nurse Mumbles, and the ...usual suspects

NYTNewYorker said...

"Are you really developing the child's mind?"

No, not at all.

They are indoctrinating the child's mind and they know that.

Michael said...

I took my son to an anti war protest a few years ago. Actually i took him to see the Constitution at the Nationa Archives in D C. A and a protest had occupied the lawn. As we waited in a long line we were able to observe what the document we were about to see protects. The protest was made up of mostly old hippies and anti war vets and people with large puppets of war criminals like the then President of the US and his VP. My son was unimpressed with the protesters

Parents taking their children to be protesters is fine by me. They are simply making a new generation that sees protest as a form of party and play and another generation who will compete poorly against my own children who were at home studying or at the rink playing hockey.

gerry said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

Profound ignorance. Amazing.

Fen said...

And the fantasy life you'd prefer to raise them in, which is a world where economic power isn't challenged, is sooooo not dangerous. Whatever.

Tell them that your allies prefer they die if they don't have insurance, you coddled, privileged, sheltered sycophant.


Fantasy life? Better to tell them that there won't *be* insurance when they come of age, and teach them to behave accordingly.

Fen said...

"Son, when the walls come down, this is the mob to watch out for. Remember to aim center mass."

DADvocate said...

How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

Profound ignorance. Amazing.


Not ignorance, willful lies in an attempt to justify themselves.

ElPresidenteCastro said...

Maybe I misunderstand but aren't most of the demonstrators children that aren't old enough to understand what is going on?

I do agree that using them as props is exploitation.

Clyde said...

So not only are they knuckleheads, they're too damn cheap to spring for a babysitter!

Better they should learn from Sesame Street. At least it would be more sanitary!

Jay said...

The NYT paints a pretty picture of the practice of taking little kids to protests

Of course. Indoctrination is the left's MO.

Jay said...

Mitochondri-Allie said...
How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?


And yet the number of rapes and sexual assualts at Tea Party rallies remains at zero (despite being orders of magnitude larger than these OWS camp-ins).

Fen said...

Libtard: How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?

I learned to shoot when I was 6.

There was a time children would walk to school with their rifles.

You need to get over your fear of guns.

Roger J. said...

IIRC the only picture of a tea party participant with a weapon openly and legally displayed was in Arizona--and it turned out the dude was black. The media, also IIRC, showed pics of the hogleg, but not the ethnicity of the man.

So, MA--does that square with your recollection? I am sure you have hundreds of pics of tea party participants carrying weapons. Love to see them--please post. Oh, wait, there arent any. Except for the black dude

Kit said...

So not only are they knuckleheads, they're too damn cheap to spring for a babysitter!

Ah, maybe it's because they can't afford one.

Anyway, if my child were interested, if it were deemed safe (easy enough to follow via twitter), and we had the time, it would be an easy decision to take my kid. Thanks for sharing.

As for the prop argument,those who see props want to see props. It fits your meme, doesn't it? Folks that I know who bring their kids have their own reasons for doing so, and it has little to do with you, I suspect.

Roger J. said...

The libertarian in me sides with Kit--People are free to do what they want to--take your kids to a demonstration--great; dont have them immunized against MMR--hell, have infection parties.

Ultimately it will come down to darwinian natural selection.

On this one I really side with darwin.Although the child's well being should, possibly, enter into the decision calculus of the parents.

J said...

The kids--at least of the non-wealthy-- should learn from an early age who their enemies are--financial predators, corrupt zionist bankers and academics, white trash zombies, klanscum, thug-cops etc.

Ergo, the protests provide a learning experience.

chrisnavin said...

Maybe someone can give birth at OWS as street performance?

Ken said...

"If the child isn't old enough to understand what is going on and to choose to go, it's exploitation."

Indeed. Did you take the kiddies to church though?

Fen said...

The kids--at least of the non-wealthy-- should learn from an early age who their enemies are--financial predators,

Universities that offer useless degrees for $100k of debt?

Roger J. said...

chrisnavin--wait nine months

Jay said...

said...
The kids--at least of the non-wealthy-- should learn from an early age who their enemies are--financial predators, corrupt zionist bankers and academics, white trash zombies, klanscum, thug-cops etc


You're the enemy of sanity and coherence, clown.

J said...

Fen-tard...your ludicrous generalizations don't mean squat, hayseed. Nor does your cert. in meth lab studies, or ebonics MeinKampf

J said...

Touched a nerve, eh Jay-Bellami the klans-man--you don't know what coherence is, masonic bag of shit--like you didn't know what a syllogism was on the other thread. How pathetic.

Just shit, like yr white trash mama .heh heh. And....many people now realize that yr ..a white supremacist, joto--so put up yr dozens of -s-names and brainfarts--we need the evidence.

Jay said...

J said...
Touched a nerve, eh Jay-Bellami the klans-man--you don't know what coherence is, masonic bag of shit--


Hi dum-dum.

I don't know if your screed was English, but it confirms my point.

Thanks for participating.

Browndog said...

Teachable moments:

What is more "teachable" than having the Vice-President of the United States go to a 4th grade class and teach the children directly.

Last week...

Here in this school, your school, you've had a lot of teachers who used to work here, but because there's no money for them in the city, they're not working. And so what happens is, when that occurs, each of the teachers that stays have more kids to teach. And they don't get to spend as much time with you as they did when your classes were smaller. We think the federal government in Washington, D.C., should say to the cities and states, look, we're going to give you some money so that you can hire back all those people. And the way we're going to do it, we're going to ask people who have a lot of money to pay just a little bit more in taxes.

Last week..

U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, interrupted an interview with a reporter Saturday in Charleston to speak with two elementary-school age children that she quickly labeled “little Democrats.”

“We are leaving no stone unturned,” she said once she returned to the interview.


Drag them to #occupy?

Why, there is no place they'd rather be!

fired up...ready to go!

mmm...mmm...mmm

Fen said...

J: your ludicrous generalizations don't mean squat, hayseed. Nor does your cert. in meth lab studies, or ebonics MeinKampf

Anyone else think J is parody?

new york said...

“We've got a sort of brainwashing going on in our country. Do you know how they brainwash people? They repeat something over and over. And that's what we do in this country. Owning things is good. More money is good. More property is good. More commercialism is good. More is good. We repeat it--and have it repeated to us--over and over until nobody bothers to even think otherwise. The average person is so fogged up by all of this, he has no perspective on what's really important anymore.
Wherever I went in my life, I met people wanting to gobble up something new. Gobble up a new car. Gobble up a new piece of property. Gobble up the latest toy. And then they wanted to tell you about it. 'Guess what I got? Guess what I got?'
You know how I interpreted that? These were people so hungry for love that they were accepting substitutes. They were embracing material things and expecting a sort of hug back. But it never works. You can't substitute material things for love or for gentleness or for tenderness or for a sense of comradeship. "
-Mitch Albom

bearing said...

This is a tentative thought, but don't forget that if parents are demonstrating, occasionally children must come along just because that's what mom does: take kids along. It doesn't have to be "a teachable moment" any more (or less) than going to the grocery store together is a teachable moment.

Of course, the press will always read it as exploitation.

But if you're the kind of parent who likes simply letting your kids observe what you do, well, then as long as it isn't an unsafe place to be, I don't see anything inherently exploitative about it. Obviously the nature of the crowd should be considered.

I'm a mom at home, and it would be pretty hard for me to attend a daytime protest of any kind if I didn't tote a couple kids with me.

Jay said...

Mitochondri-Allie said...
How about taking children to Tea Party rallies where they are packing heat on their hips?



OOPS!

there’s a bunch of guys at Occupy Phoenix wearing camo, tactical gear and carrying around AR-15s

Now what, you silly little ignorant moron?

new york said...

the address of the clinic where Scott is hospitalized so you can send your postcards to support him and his family through these difficult times:

USMC Scott Olsen
Highland Hospital
1411 East 31st Street
Oakland, CA 94602

Monkeyboy said...

Who names their kid USMC?

Michael said...

New York: Thanks for the address. I hope that the liberal Democratic administration in Oakland that ordered the crackdown is made to pay for this. The tea party people voted out the people they thought were not representing them, perhaps the Occupy movement will do the same with the Democrat Mayors of Oakland and Atlanta.

Christopher in MA said...

"Who names their kid USMC?"

Gomer Pyle's folks did. Of course, they put the initials on the other end, but. . .

Oh, and Jay, I saw that report about the people in Phoenix packing heat. Right now, no one is sure if they're 2nd Amendment supporters (which I doubt), wannabe revolutionaries wating to get their freak on (likely) or agent provocateurs (very likely, in the land of Little Black Jesus). As they say, "watch this space."