In the company of a few too many Glenns.
Or maybe yesterday was ax-grinding day. I see Glenn Reynolds was going after Glenn Greenwald, who was my least favorite Glenn until I ran across the infernal Glenn Kenny, who calls his blog "In the Company of Glenn."
But let's see what the problem was yesterday with the second-worst Glenn:
Back to Glenn R:
This incites me to go over and actually read a Glenn Greenwald post, which is something I almost never do, because Glenn G brings out the ADD in me.
Greenwald begins with the subject of how sexy and manly Fred Thompson is and quotes Chris Matthews enthusing:
So let's see how Glenn G dithers over it:
But finally he gets to his point, which is that right-wingers are always lording it over the lefties that they are mas macho.
Why write in Glennwaldese? It's a way of making the obvious look less obvious and giving off the air of intelligence... which doesn't smell like English Leather. (It's English Leather -- a men's cologne -- not "English leather" as Glenn has it up there.) It smells like an old college dorm room.
And yes, I know, I know, war and torture are serious, so why am I writing about language and rhetoric? Because I don't have anything interesting to say about the horror of war and torture. I hate war and torture. Please note.
Back to Mr. G:
Why not use a vivid expression that retains the meaning so we don't have to scroll back? Maybe "machismo" or "phony masculinity"? Glenn G probably thinks the word "dynamic" expresses the way the desire for masculinity -- he laughably says guys crave "artificial masculinity" -- interferes with rational thought... and also that it makes his observation seem more important than it is. Why this is no mere process, it's a whole dynamic!
Glenn Reynolds offers the actual context here, and it shows Glenn G's characterization to be an embarrassing distortion. Did he originally have the link and then remove it to hide his distortion? Kind of wimpy, no?
You know, I think it's really important to analyze the sexual feelings that underlie politics and warfare. I wish Glenn Greenwald would do a better job of it.
But I have two other problems:
1. Greenwald started out by mocking Chris Matthews for the analysis of sexual feeling in politics, and then he ended up analyzing sexual feelings in politics. I think he realized this was incoherent, and then, instead of rewriting his post -- why subtract when you can add? -- he just asserted: "None of this is about psychoanalyzing anyone." Get it? The thing Matthews did? Bad! The thing I just did? Must be good, cuz I did it, so different, and hence, not bad.
2. Greenwald himself is not free from the "dynamic" -- which, you might remember, is "this pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity [that] supplants rational and substantive political considerations." His long tirade tells us something about his feelings of masculinity, and he never examines what they are. If we are competent readers, though, we must look into that. He mocks Glenn Reynolds for talking about what a geek he is, but self-examination and self-deprecation are good -- and are not evidence of someone with a "pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity [that] supplants rational and substantive political considerations." Where is Greenwald's self-examination and self-deprecation? All I ever see is self-importance and preening and condemning others as inferior, which kind of seems like a "pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity [that] supplants rational and substantive political considerations."
Hey, this dynamic is depressingly pervasive, yet incomparably significant.
IN THE MAIL: Knoxwhirled sends lolglenn:

But let's see what the problem was yesterday with the second-worst Glenn:
I don't pay much attention, generally, but I'm stuck in a car with nothing but Technorati for company...Judging from the camera angle in the photo, Reynolds was in the passenger seat. I thought he was blogging and driving. You could blog and drive in stop-and-go, bumper-to-bumper traffic couldn't you? (I like to vlog and drive, myself.)
Back to Glenn R:
....and noticed that in one of his typically verbose efforts....Can someone explain why leaning left causes verbosity?
Glenn Greenwald gets around, eventually, to making two points, One is that I'm a geek, whose interest in Western culture's retreat from traditional ideas of masculinity is thus silly:So Glenn G is irked that Glenn R is calling people wimps and basically says, but you're a wimp. This is great. Reminds me of that old game show "Quien Es Mas Macho."Glenn Reynolds -- who, by his own daily admission, devotes his life to attending convention center conferences on space and playing around with new, cool gadgets in the fun room in his house, like a sheltered adolescent in his secret treehouse club -- to fret: "Are we turning into a nation of wimps?"But, see, that's the point. I'm a geek. If I notice it, it's probably real. It would be like Greenwald complaining that the country was going overboard in hatred of Bush.
This incites me to go over and actually read a Glenn Greenwald post, which is something I almost never do, because Glenn G brings out the ADD in me.
Greenwald begins with the subject of how sexy and manly Fred Thompson is and quotes Chris Matthews enthusing:
Can you smell the English leather on this guy, the Aqua Velva, the sort of mature man's shaving cream, or whatever, you know, after he shaved? Do you smell that sort of -- a little bit of cigar smoke?Now that is hilarious. (Video!) But that's Chris Matthews, and in fact, he's raising the terribly important issue of our sexual response to political candidates. As Al Gore likes to write books about: We are not rational decisionmakers in this democracy. Matthews is pointing that out in a punchy, comedic way. And he's interacting with Ana Marie Cox, who takes a comedic approach to politics.
So let's see how Glenn G dithers over it:
What can even be said about that? And nobody really seems to find this odd or disturbing or objectionable at all -- that night after night, one of the featured "journalists" of a major news network goes on television and, with some of our most prestigious journalists assembled with him, speaks admiringly about the smells and arousing masculinity and the "daddy" qualities of various political officials, and that this metric is, more or less, the full extent of his political analysis.What can even be said about that? And nobody really seems to find it odd or disturbing or objectionable at all -- that day after day, Salon features a blogger who goes on and on in the most tedious way. In this case, he's criticizing Matthews but he's tone deaf to his comic style.... or would you think I was smart if I said the metric that is his analysis?
During the last week, when I was traveling, I spent substantial time driving in a rental car...Glenn G can't say "last week." It's got to be "during the last week." He can't say "a long time," he has to say "substantial time."
...and thus had the opportunity to listen for large chunks of time to The Rush Limbaugh Show...You know, Glenn G can't just "listen" to the radio, he has to have "the opportunity to listen" to the radio. So you listened to the radio? Who cares if it was last week and the car was a rental car and you were not only driving you were also traveling? It's like his little heart leaps every time he sees the opportunity to lard in a few more words, like a schoolboy assigned to write a 500-word essay.
But finally he gets to his point, which is that right-wingers are always lording it over the lefties that they are mas macho.
Virtually the entire show is now devoted to an overt celebration of masculinity -- by Rush Limbaugh -- and to claims that Democrats and liberals lack masculinity....Let's translate that last paragraph from Glennwaldese to plain English: No, you guys are wimps.
And just as Glenn Reynolds has done, Rush has developed a virtual obsession with the book The Dangerous Book for Boys, geared towards teaching "boys how to be boys." Rush spent the week hailing it as the antidote to what he calls the "Emasculation of America."
Identically, Reynolds on his blog has promoted the book a disturbing 17 times in the last six weeks alone. When doing so, he routinely proclaims things such as "maybe there's hope," and -- most revealingly -- has fretted: "Are we turning into a nation of wimps?" ...
There are few things more disorienting than listening to Rush Limbaugh declare himself the icon of machismo and masculinity and mock others as "wimps." And if you look at those who have this obsession -- the Chris Matthews and Glenn Reynolds and Jonah Goldbergs and Victor Davis Hansons -- what one finds in almost every case is that those who want to convert our political process and especially our national policies into a means of proving one's "traditional masculine virtues" -- the physically courageous warriors unbound by effete conventions -- themselves could not be further removed from those attributes, and have lives which are entirely devoid of such "virtues."
This is notable not merely because this pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity supplants rational and substantive political considerations, though it does do that. Nor is it notable merely because it is so unpleasant, even cringe-inducing to behold, though it is that, too. Instead, this topic is unavoidable, really at the center of our political discourse, because it leads directly to some of our most significant and controversial political decisions.Glennwaldese to English: Thinking about masculinity is emotional and we shouldn't be emotional about politics.
Why write in Glennwaldese? It's a way of making the obvious look less obvious and giving off the air of intelligence... which doesn't smell like English Leather. (It's English Leather -- a men's cologne -- not "English leather" as Glenn has it up there.) It smells like an old college dorm room.
... Rush Limbaugh ... parade[s] around as the icon of masculinity, and it ... drives him not only to dismiss -- but to overtly celebrate -- the abuses of Abu Grahib and other torture policies as just good, clean fun had by real men (like Rush, as proven by his support for it). As John McCain pointed out in the GOP debate in South Carolina, men who have actually served in the military find torture to be dishonorable, dangerous and repulsive. Only those with a throbbing need to demonstrate their masculine virtues would glibly embrace things of that sort.Do women not exist in Glenn G's world?
This dynamic is depressingly pervasive, yet incomparably significant.A classic Glenn Greenwald sentence if there ever was one. It's such a perfect embodiment of Glenn Greenwaldese that if he were a sitcom character his catchphrase could be "This dynamic is depressingly pervasive, yet incomparably significant." He'd be like Aunt Sassy in "Room and Bored." The other characters would be doing whatever they do and -- Aunt Sassy would say "I don't want see that" -- he'd go: "This dynamic is depressingly pervasive, yet incomparably significant."
And yes, I know, I know, war and torture are serious, so why am I writing about language and rhetoric? Because I don't have anything interesting to say about the horror of war and torture. I hate war and torture. Please note.
Back to Mr. G:
It's what causes someone like Glenn Reynolds...What's the "it"? Scroll back. Oh, I see: it's the "dynamic." And what was the dynamic? I seem to remember that it was depressingly pervasive, yet incomparably significant. Scroll back more. Oh, it was "this pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity [that] supplants rational and substantive political considerations." So then, the pervasive craving is depressingly pervasive. Egad! I hate when things that are already pervasive become, you know, pervasive. People, listen, can't you see? It's so horrible! It's the dynamic! The pervasiveness of it is getting pervasive. I'm so depressed.
Why not use a vivid expression that retains the meaning so we don't have to scroll back? Maybe "machismo" or "phony masculinity"? Glenn G probably thinks the word "dynamic" expresses the way the desire for masculinity -- he laughably says guys crave "artificial masculinity" -- interferes with rational thought... and also that it makes his observation seem more important than it is. Why this is no mere process, it's a whole dynamic!
It's what causes someone like Glenn Reynolds -- who, by his own daily admission, devotes his life to attending convention center conferences on space and playing around with new, cool gadgets in the fun room in his house, like a sheltered adolescent in his secret treehouse club -- to fret: "Are we turning into a nation of wimps?," and directly in response to that concern, to urge "more rubble, less trouble" -- meaning that he wants to watch on his television set as the U.S. military flattens neighborhoods and slaughters more people in the name of "strength," "resolve," and "power."When you point your cursor at "more rubble, less trouble," it highlights as if there's supposed to be a link there, but clicking goes nowhere. So is that a quote from Glenn R or not?
Glenn Reynolds offers the actual context here, and it shows Glenn G's characterization to be an embarrassing distortion. Did he originally have the link and then remove it to hide his distortion? Kind of wimpy, no?
You know, I think it's really important to analyze the sexual feelings that underlie politics and warfare. I wish Glenn Greenwald would do a better job of it.
But I have two other problems:
1. Greenwald started out by mocking Chris Matthews for the analysis of sexual feeling in politics, and then he ended up analyzing sexual feelings in politics. I think he realized this was incoherent, and then, instead of rewriting his post -- why subtract when you can add? -- he just asserted: "None of this is about psychoanalyzing anyone." Get it? The thing Matthews did? Bad! The thing I just did? Must be good, cuz I did it, so different, and hence, not bad.
2. Greenwald himself is not free from the "dynamic" -- which, you might remember, is "this pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity [that] supplants rational and substantive political considerations." His long tirade tells us something about his feelings of masculinity, and he never examines what they are. If we are competent readers, though, we must look into that. He mocks Glenn Reynolds for talking about what a geek he is, but self-examination and self-deprecation are good -- and are not evidence of someone with a "pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity [that] supplants rational and substantive political considerations." Where is Greenwald's self-examination and self-deprecation? All I ever see is self-importance and preening and condemning others as inferior, which kind of seems like a "pervasive and insecure craving for artificial masculinity [that] supplants rational and substantive political considerations."
Hey, this dynamic is depressingly pervasive, yet incomparably significant.
IN THE MAIL: Knoxwhirled sends lolglenn:

Labels: blogging, Chris Matthews, Fred Thompson, Greenwald, lameness, masculinity, movies, rhetoric, writing
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234 Comments:
Dang, that was a long blog entry ...
Greenwald begins with the subject of how sexy and manly Fred Thompson is
God you suck. The post is obviously about Chris Matthews' interest in Fred Thompson's sexiness and masculinity.
Duh, Doyle, that's why I have the word "begins." I can only bite off one chunk at a time of Greenwald's deadly prose. So, no, you suck.
But don't let Doyle hijack this thread. Talk about the post, not Doyle's distraction. He's only here to screw things up. He's a troll.
I'm here to expose you for the mindless hack you are.
The point is Greenwald isn't personally concerned with Fred Thompson's sexiness. Chris Matthews is.
Get it? You may like that Chris Matthews has weird fetishes about the Clenis and the GOP's various "daddy" figures, but not everyone does. Some people actually appreciate substantive as opposed to superficial political discourse, as hard as that may be for you to imagine.
Did I read that far-too-verbose GG link correctly? How do I put this delicately.....is the fellow least likely to be named 'most physically masculine person in the world' really attempting to smear righties who worry about American males turning into wimps by hinting that they're not physically intimidating enough (thus they don't qualify)?
BTW, lambchop (I know you're reading), I'm 6'5" & 235 lbs, so yeah, I qualify & I'm masculine enough to know that sock-puppets are barely 'real men'. I know we're all subjects to the DNA enshrined upon us by our parents, but really.....you're too small & delicate to decide which guys don't look tough enough.
Can someone explain why leaning left causes verbosity?
So it's true -- you do still lean left.
****"Some people actually appreciate substantive as opposed to superficial political discourse"***
Sorry, you lost us with 'clenis'. Nice attempt at recovery, though.
Great post, Ann. Start-to-finish fantastic, but especially when you start tracking the pronouns. Very well done.
I'm here to expose you for the mindless hack you are.
Wow, Someone defending Glenn Greenwald calling someone a mindless hack.
Oh, the Irony.
Introduction to Hypocrisy 101
(a) Greenwald decries innuendo on the right
...
(b) Greenwald engages in rank innuendo
"Can someone explain why leaning left causes verbosity?"
Yes: because the more terse a post is, the more exposed the central argument(s) are to the reader. Thus, weaker arguments much be camouflaged with more surrounding prose.
I immediately wondered if Greenwald was a vegan. I think he protests to much and makes the case against him by proving the verbosity charge.
Apparently GG likes to substitute quantity for quality.
Yeah, sorry for the length of this post. Greenwald does tend to make himself impervious to criticism by being so verbose. If you hate verbose, how do you avoid being verbose talking about why something verbose is bad? Quite the conundrum, no?
Okay, I get you correcting Greenwald's writing, although it's annoying, but your psychoanalysis really blew me away!!! I'm in such awe! The multi-talented Althouse. Btw, did you know that a LOT of people out there think you're a basket case?
Also, instead of blindly defending Reynolds, which is telling, why don't you address Greenwald's real point, that those daddy-macho guys like Limbaugh, Krystol, Goldberg, Reynolds, Hagan, Cheney, etc., did not serve this country when they had the opportunity. And when they could have blown up a bunch of commies in Vietnam, they all hid behind they're privileged families?
Romney, big talker about war and fighting terrorism, he has five manly-masculine sons that could serve, how many are over there?
Do you have any sons of age?
Simon: "because the more terse a post is, the more exposed the central argument(s) are to the reader"
Yeah, I have a general rule about reading. If I have to translate into plain English and then seeing what you're saying in plain English was not worth the effort of translating, I quit reading. I've saved myself from the task of reading so many law review articles that way.
I take it vrse (nor Greenwald) will end up voting for pro-war-didn't-serve Hillary Clinton should she win the nomination.
Vrse: Yes, I have sons "of age," but age is not the only qualification, and moreover, because they are of age, they are not within my control. So what's your point, if any?
Ann,
I don't suppose Blogger would let you do this, but really a single instance of the "lameness" label doesn't begin to do justice to Greenwald's writing.
As to the prolixity of the left, I'm not sure there really is much difference there when you consider equal distances from the "center". That is, the David Dukes and John Birches of this world gas on just as interminably as GG does; it's just that nobody gives them a polite hearing so we tend not to notice them.
Finally, regarding this point of Reynolds:
"Greenwald's acolytes are mocking this picture [with the santa hat] as insufficiently manly. "
There's just no pleasing some people. Remember how nuts the left side of the blogosphere went when the professor wore this shirt?
I've saved myself from the task of reading so many law review articles that way.
I bet you have.
Ann said:
"And yes, I know, I know, war and torture are serious, so why am I writing about language and rhetoric? Because I don't have anything interesting to say about the horror of war and torture. I hate war and torture. Please note."
Well, that's perfectly summarizes my problem with Ann's preference with style over substance. When you say "I hate war and torture", it sounds so banal. Who doesn't? The point is that this administration uses fear mongering to make us accept torture (or, as they call it "advanced interrogation techniques" or some other euphemism) as unavoidable in this great war on terror. While you don't have to write about anything (it's your blog), it would be nice if you could provide some more LEGAL analysis, along the lines of Marty Lederman, Orin Kerr, and yes, Glenn Greenwald. And on the substance, Greenwald's logic is unassailable.
Ann,
"If you hate verbose, how do you avoid being verbose talking about why something verbose is bad?"
As Simon pointed out, "Thus, weaker arguments much be camouflaged with more surrounding prose." Yes, and sometimes there's so much camouflage the reader misses out on the important fact that the camouflage is all there is.
So you could just say, "There's no there there" and challenge your readers to find any item of substance therein. Although there is certainly good entertainment value in watching the disassembly of GG's "prose", so I don't think you should be too apologetic about the length.
Mark,
"And on the substance, Greenwald's logic is undetectable."
There, I fixed your typo for you.
Well, Ann, how would you feel about Iraq if you're son were out there?
The thought of your son patrolling streets without body armor waiting to be IEDed?
The thought of your son torturing someone because Cheney tells him to?
My overall point is that it's easy to talk tough about war from afar. It's easy to be macho about something when it doesn't affect you or anyone near you? That's what I take Greenwald's overall point to be, and I wholeheartedly agree with him.
This post is awesome.
Ricky said...
"I take it vrse (nor Greenwald)..."
You assume there's a difference.
Good lord, and I thought I was wordy! Greenwald could run rhetorical circles around my circumlocution. At least I do it for a (perhaps mistaken) attempt at clarity!
Be that as it may, this is the funniest dang thing I've read all week. I love me the Althouse.
Simon, why are you such an idiot?
"Why write in Glennwaldese? It's a way of making the obvious look less obvious and giving off the air of intelligence... which doesn't smell like English Leather. (It's English Leather -- a men's cologne -- not "English leather" as Glenn has it up there.) It smells like an old college dorm room."
Ann, it would be nice if you mentioned that "English leather" is what appears in the transcript of Chris Matthews' show which is linked to by Glenn Greenwald.
And, Kirk, please refute Greenwald's logic, if you can. Noone in this thread provided any substantive arguments; the only substantive argument so far was by Ann that Matthews was joking and Greenwald was overreacting. I disagree with the argument, but at least it's on substance.
vrse, you're making a fool of yourself. There is not a draft, and even if there were, many suitable people are still ineligible. Because of this, those who serve in the military do so by choice. Try to think of a better way to appeal to hearts 'n minds.
the only substantive argument so far was by Ann that Matthews was joking and Greenwald was overreacting.
No, no, Ann's getting at something much deeper: Namely "Don't be mean to my benefactor, Glennda the good witch of Tennessee."
Little GG is all pissy because the right is so masculine, yet does he ever look at his good buddies on left? The left wing nut roots community is all about praising those who have the "balls" and "cojones" to speak truth to power, while the mealy mouthed moderates like the DLC, the MSM and the pundit class are just a bunch of wimps, sissies and sellouts. No double-standard there Glenn
Daily Kos constantly promoted the "Fighting Dems" to celebrate the warriors inside the democratic party during the last election. The ladies at the feminist sites even have lashed out at the lockerroom mentality of male leftwing bloggers saying they aren't any better than the religious right on feminine issues.
There is also the machismo on the left when it comes to calling Bush, Cheney, etc Chickenhawks. Many of these lefties support the Afghan invasion, so if every supporter of the IWR is expected to enlist, so are those who oppose the Taliban. Though I think Greenwald has a convient exemption from serving.
"Because of this, those who serve in the military do so by choice."
See, this is the type of crap that gets me going. Let me take a wild guess Price, go ask the scores of national guard people and poor young kids, most of which are minorities, whether they joined the military to go to Iraq.
But even if you volunteered to go to Iraq, does this mean that it's okay for civilians to order their kids to torture other human beings? Is this what you're saying, cause as you pointed out, I'm too much of a fool to figure stuff out.
vrse
Nice list of "untrue" talking points.
The thought of your son patrolling streets without body armor waiting to be IEDed?
Can you post a link to story of US soldier patrolling streets without body armor?
BTW, body armor is worn by the soldier. It is not the Humvee armor that the democrats were complaining about.
The thought of your son torturing someone because Cheney tells him to?
You have proof of Cheney walking around Iraq or Gitmo telling individual soldiers to torture people?
How to you respond to the talking point that the only members of congress that wish to bring back the draft are democrats?
Ann says: "Can someone explain why leaning left causes verbosity?"
and follows up with about 1,500 words.
duh.
Maybe Greenwald's just desparately in love with Justice Kennedy, and his blog is a misplaced attempt to take a bullet for Tony by putting out prose that makes Kennedy's writing look terse, workmanlike and pizazzy by comparison?
vrse said...
"Simon, why are you such an idiot?"
Take your pick from: funsies; everyone needs a hobby; the designated hitter rule; the Jester was the only vacancy available in the Court of Queen Ann; I just get up in the morning and do what Karl Rove tells me to, on the assumption King George knows what he's doing and that it's all to the greater glory of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy; Hugh Jackman. Or make up your own fun and exciting reason!
Ricky commented above, take it vrse (nor Greenwald) will end up voting for pro-war-didn't-serve Hillary Clinton should she win the nomination.
... wait, before I begin the meat of my own personal comment upon this important subject, a momentary digression with regards to the source of my consternation regarding that particular comment (which I perused in the course of reading all the other comments, which I only read because being stuck at the airport at the moment (the reasons for being at the airport may be one digression too many (but then again, to rob you of the knowledge of why I am in the airport, why that leads to downtime which affords me the opportunity to delve deeply into this post and the comments it supports may make understanding what follows more arduous, so to make a long story short, I blame Bush for his draconian methods turning the entire nation into his personal panopticon for causing the experience of waiting in an airport into one of interminable tedium)))
The nature of identity on the internet is a fluid one. An entity can go about carefully cultivating a consistent identity, even create an identifiable character with a series of posts, but nobody but the original poster can know if the person representing themselves under a particular handle is or isn't the same person who claims to be that person in all cases. Furthermore, there are the times when people assume multiple identities (sometimes even within the same comment thread), a practice which has become known in the vernacular as, "sock puppetry", or even in some circles, "being a total greenwald".
In other words (see this proves I'm not Greenwald, I sum up my own bloated prose, so you don't have to)
vrse=greenwald
doyle=greenwald
mark=greenwald
(d'oh! Simon went straight for the punchline while I was composing all this, oh well)
Let me take a wild guess Price, go ask the scores of national guard people and poor young kids, most of which are minorities, whether they joined the military to go to Iraq.
Why are you trying to paint our soldiers as being helpless, brown-skinned pussies? Why must you emasculate and condescend to our soldiers? Go home and sit down.
Not only do the lizard brains not get tired of flogging the Patterico-generated sock puppet accusations, they actually think there are people left who haven't heard of them.
If they were true, he wouldn't have been hired. But you kids keep having a good time with it.
Simon said...in regard to being "left" causing verbosity:
"Yes: because the more terse a post is, the more exposed the central argument(s) are to the reader. Thus, weaker arguments much be camouflaged with more surrounding prose."
*could you edit that down a bit?
Doyle said...
"Glennda the good witch of Tennessee."
LOL! That's pretty good!
But that metaphor would make Ann the Good Witch of the North, would it not? I suppose California-based Kos could be the Wicked Witch of the West. And NY-based Greewald would be the Wicked Witch of the East. Who of course dies at the start of the first book. Hang on, I'm starting to warm to this metaphor.
)
vrse said..."Also, instead of blindly defending Reynolds, which is telling, why don't you address Greenwald's real point, that those daddy-macho guys like Limbaugh, Krystol, Goldberg, Reynolds, Hagan, Cheney, etc., did not serve this country when they had the opportunity. And when they could have blown up a bunch of commies in Vietnam, they all hid behind they're privileged families?
Romney, big talker about war and fighting terrorism, he has five manly-masculine sons that could serve, how many are over there?"
*correcto mundo...(what are you doing here? these people don't want to hear any of this.)
XWL - sorry to pre-empt you. And of course, it's ironic, because I myself am a sock puppet for Justice Scalia! ;)
Ann Althouse said..."Vrse: Yes, I have sons "of age," but age is not the only qualification, and moreover, because they are of age, they are not within my control. So what's your point, if any?"
just a guess, but...uh...maybe...why aren't they serving in iraq??
Luckyoldson said...
"([VRSE,] what are you doing here? these people don't want to hear any of this.)"
On the contrary, it's the best entertainment on the internet right now. Carry on!
Lucky: I don't accept your inviting people to look into invading my sons' privacy.
simon blathers on..."Take your pick from: funsies; everyone needs a hobby; the designated hitter rule; the Jester was the only vacancy available in the Court of Queen Ann; I just get up in the morning and do what Karl Rove tells me to, on the assumption King George knows what he's doing and that it's all to the greater glory of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy; Hugh Jackman. Or make up your own fun and exciting reason!"
what happened to your rule about the "left" being sooooooooooooooo verbose?
*right wing bullshit, as usual.
Price, you bright, wise, beautiful human being,
Where did I say they were pussies. Are you suggesting that by saying that they don't want to go to Iraq, I'm calling them "pussies"? So, are you in Iraq, because I'd like to know if I'm talking to a "pussy" right now.
For the record, I was a poor and "brown-skinned" once, now I'm just "brown-skinned." So I know what it's like to have recruiters come up to you at the mall promising the world.
So, you're not a "pussy," nor "brow-skinned," and I'm guessing you're not poor, so it's time to STFU.
ann,
i and i suspect most others here could care less about your kid's "privacy."
the query related to how you would feel about the iraqi fiasco...if your own kids were serving their country in iraq.
talk is cheap...but you already know that, being a republican and all.
Is there something about Fridays that lead to threads like this?
i think cheney and the rest of the neocon gang are pussies.
roger,
it's friday??
Well, there's ax-grinding, and then there's The Fine Art of Ax-Grinding.
That's what Reynolds said:
"On the other hand, it's also true that if democracy can't work in Iraq, then we should probably adopt a "more rubble, less trouble" approach to other countries in the region that threaten us. If a comparatively wealthy and secular Arab country can't make it as a democratic republic, then what hope is there for places that are less wealthy, or less secular?"
He tries to justify it thusly:
"I've made clear, in that post and elsewhere, that I think democracy can work in Iraq -- this comment was aimed at advocates (like Greenwald) of giving up."
I don't know how ANYONE can accept Reynolds' explanation that his bloodthirsty comment was "conditional." He clearly states that "if democracy can't work", we should basically just bomb indiscriminately. There is nothing in his comment that suggests he was being ironic or sarcastic; his view was that if democracy in Iraq can't work (although he hopes it can), US should reduce other countries that we think threaten us to rubble.
It's a despicable viewpoint and Glenn Greenwald was right to call him on this!
And when Ann says that "Glenn G's characterization [is] an embarrassing distortion," it is false. Greenwald did not distort anything: he accurately summarized Greewald's position.
price,
where did you come up with vrse intimating our soldiers were "pussies?"
That wasn't an invitation to invade anyone's privacy, but it doesn't matter what Ann's son is doing, be it serving in Iraq or trying on hats. It has no bearing whatsoever.
Ann, are you sure you didn't miss your calling?
I think you should of been an English teacher.
You would of been a hard ass with grading term papers.
I think writing are skills and important and unforutnately I am not too good at writing.
I am impressed with our diva's knowledge of the written word and this is not being sarcastic.
I am just curious when grading you law students do you comment on their writing? I think this is an invaluable skill and I wouldn't be able to pick it apart like Ann does.
I am a decent business writer though (memos etc at work). For some reason I can manage those ok.
How did you get so good at the writing thing?
Excellent dissection!
"...meaning that he wants to watch on his television set as the U.S. military flattens neighborhoods and slaughters more people in the name of "strength," "resolve," and "power."
What is this tiresome old douche talking about? Who is actually "flattening neighborhoods" in the world right now? Is it the US military? Do soldiers possess "artificial masculinity"? What is "real masculinity"? When Greenwald's testosterone-popping spiritual sugar daddy Andrew Sullivan puts on his leathers to take in the "bear" festival in P-Town?
Lefties are sometimes verbose because the current generations of the left grew up reading Continental "theory" - the Foucaults, the Derridas, the Deleuze and Guattaris, the Baudrillards, the Habermas' and Adornos; their first helping of Marxism came buried in a thousand pounds of textual packing peanuts and they unconsciously picked up the habit. And, as pointed out by other comments, the worst thing a lefty with intellectual pretensions can do is express their poorly-reasoned beliefs clearly. Without the rivers of textual filler, you wouldn't understand that the person expressing such dumb ideas fancied himself smart.
And as far as fragrances go, English Leather is swill. If you want a "leather" fragrance, the real masculine gentleman wears Knize Ten.
mark, stop that! don't you know that Ann hates Glenn G and really really likes Glenn R?
She'll start deleting your comments for pointing out the obvious.
doyle,
of course it does...especially if you appear to condone what we're doing in iraq or support the bush administration's actions.
it was just a simple question...and what's wrong with saying whether your kids serve or not?
you consider that a huge INVASION of privacy?
palladian asks: "Who is actually "flattening neighborhoods" in the world right now?"
familiar with the term; "shock and awe?"
Luckyoldson said..."ann,
i and i suspect most others here could care less about your kid's "privacy.""
Then you are a slimy, unethical sh*t, and I see no reason ever to respond to you.
Luckyoldson, verbosity is not a function of how many words one uses, it's a function of surplusage: the ratio of words to ideas. In Greenwald's case, that's usually in the ratio ∞:0
Boston70:
"How did [Ann] get so good at the writing thing?
She's been a successfull writer for many more years than she's been blogging. That's basically what law professors do - they teach and they write.
Palladian,
be less verbose.
thanks.
simon:
ver·bose
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin verbosus, from verbum
1 : containing more words than necessary : WORDY: impaired by wordiness
2 : given to wordiness
*but thanks anyway.
Are you serious, Annie? He wasn't disparaging your sons privacy, he was pointing out that your son's privacy has nothing to do with the question. I thought you were good with words, poems, Yeats, Sopranos, etc etc.
Either way, okay, respond to me instead, unless you think I'm an "unethical sh*t" as well.
Lucky and vrse:
I object to your insistence that our poor, helpless soldiers need blog commenters to protect them from the world. Stop using this rhetoric. If you want to be against the war, then argue that point. Don't bring in how the soldiers feel because you'll just look like a condescending jackass.
Lucky -
Everyone knows Ann's son isn't in Iraq, or if he is it's being kept secret (and those photos a few months back were of some other dude).
So for however much that undercuts Ann's support for the war, you can make the "your kid isn't over there" argument, but it's a weak one. For one thing, military parents are probably in some cases MORE hawkish as a result (i.e. Don't tell us we invaded for nothing!).
ann,
geeeeee, that was an awful thing to say.
now i really do care about your kid's privacy.
thanks.
vrse said:
Let me take a wild guess Price, go ask the scores of national guard people and poor young kids, most of which are minorities, whether they joined the military to go to Iraq.
Ok let me ask you if you think any of them joined the military to go to Afghanistan, or Somalia or Bosnia? What part of ‘volunteer army’ don’t you get?
If someone enlists, I think there is an expectation that they just might have to go into combat at some point. Kind of like a cop who doesn’t join the force with the intent of shooting someone but knows it is a possibility because it comes with the job.
And do you have any sources which show that the poor young kids are mostly minorities? I thought this was pretty much debunked after Kerry’s Stuck in Iraq comment.
Luckyoldson - you do understand that the definition that you just posted SUPPORTS my point, right? That verbosity is using language that "Contain[s] more words than necessary," emphasis added, is precisely the point that I made - verbosity is measured by surplusage, not aggregate word count.
doyle,
we invaded for nothing...and history will prove that to be the case...if it hasn't already.
I went into Greenwald's site and he does have a delicious spread of all the he-men. Those pictures are hilarious. It looks like a group of men that would run if you said boo to them.
They are all incredibly unattractive also. Is that a attribute that they must share? Being butt ugly?
The Muscle Boys at Boston Pride could definitely kick their asses.
simon,
give it up, dude.
here's what YOU posted: "verbosity is not a function of how many words one uses, it's a function of surplusage: the ratio of words to ideas. In Greenwald's case, that's usually in the ratio ∞:0"
here's webster's definition:
ver·bose
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin verbosus, from verbum
1 : containing more words than necessary : WORDY: impaired by wordiness
2 : given to wordiness
i'll stick with the dictionary version.
BTW, LuckyOldSon, when even Doyle's saying that your line of attack against Ann's futile - no fan of her, he - it's time to give it up as a bad job.
simon,
what is it you do not understand about the term;
"containing more words than necessary??"
duh.
simon,
oh, okay...if YOU say so...suck-ass.
LuckyOldSon, you're a moron. You have the reading comprehension of a four year old. The dictionary definition you want to stick with says exactly the same thing that I said. I said, as you quoted, "'verbosity is not a function of how many words one uses, it's a function of surplusage: the ratio of words to ideas.'" Webster's primary definition, that you quoted is that verbosity is "containing more words than necessary." Those are identical concepts.
Maybe you just don't understand what "surplusage" means. Surplusage means "an excess amount" or "more than necessary." Try reading my post again with that definition substituted in, and compare it to Webster's. If you're still confused, your kindergarten teacher will be able to explain it when you get there next year.
simon,
you are dumber than a fucking post...and evidently LOVE to hear what YOU have to say.
the point i'm trying to make is this: YOU, by being overly "verbose" in your descriptioin of what being "verbose" is...are doing exactly what is being discussed...BEING TOO VERBOSE.
you can describe "using too many words" any way you want...but it still boils down to "using too many words."
PERIOD.
Further responding to Ann's substantive points. Ann says:
"1. Greenwald started out by mocking Chris Matthews for the analysis of sexual feeling in politics, and then he ended up analyzing sexual feelings in politics. I think he realized this was incoherent, and then, instead of rewriting his post -- why subtract when you can add? -- he just asserted: "None of this is about psychoanalyzing anyone." Get it? The thing Matthews did? Bad! The thing I just did? Must be good, cuz I did it, so different, and hence, not bad."
No, this is a mischaracterization of what Glenn did. Glenn demonstrated that:
1) Our press, as represented by Chris Matthews, is pathetic as the analysis of substantive positions is replaced by a juvenile-like focus on sexual feelings aroused by the candidates. This illustrates how low the level of our supposed "watchdog" fell.
2) The second point was that people who accuse liberals of being insufficiently masculine are hardly the ideals of masculinity themselves. It's a "pot calling the kettle black" argument. Greenwald does not focus on psychoanalysis; he's just pointing out the glaring hypocrisy.
Two questions:
Would you challenge an anti-war activist on the grounds that he or she has an adult child serving in the military?
Do you expect adult children to make personal decisions about military service based on their parents' stance on war?
***
Two observations:
Amazing that anyone who's a regular commenter here hasn't been reading closely enough to realize that Ann has two adult sons.
I think the smell of English leather is much sexier and more masculine than the scent of English Leather. Just a personal opinion.
When you point your cursor at "more rubble, less trouble," it highlights as if there's supposed to be a link there, but clicking goes nowhere. So is that a quote from Glenn R or not?
Glenn Reynolds offers the actual context here, and it shows Glenn G's characterization to be an embarrassing distortion. Did he originally have the link and then remove it to hide his distortion? Kind of wimpy, no?
If one were interested in addressing substance rather than just throwing nit-picking insults, one might look at the page source. Then one would notice that the link was valid, but the 'href' was mispelled 'hrf,' so the link was nonfunctional. But if one wants to practice mock outrage and avoid the substance of Greenwald's post, then one does exactly what Ms. Althouse does.
Likewise, one could focus on writing styles, sexual orientation ("Do women not exist in Glenn G's world?"), or any number of other nonsubstantive topics.
Be careful, though. Attacking people using so many hack arguments has a way of coming back and biting you in the ass.
Yep, axe grinding as an art form.
Ann,
Yes, people are still Friday cat blogging. All in an attempt to get you to think cats are cute, cuddly beasts and get your poor abused phalanges shredded.
BTW, you get the feeling all those Greenwald Defenders have suspiciously similar IPs? (Ever get the feeling you can get further reasoning with a cat?)
Another Ann's gem"
"Glennwaldese to English: Thinking about masculinity is emotional and we shouldn't be emotional about politics."
No, this is again a total misrepresentation of what Glenn said. Please point out exactly where he said what you claim he said. You can't. Your "translation" completely misrepresents Glenn's post. Glenn's point was that it is the Right's political cynical strategy to feminize Democratic men. He's written about it before. It's absurd to claim, as you do, that Glenn's point is that masculinity is emotional and we should not be emotional about policy.
Any fair reading of Greenwald would refute your interpretation. Please try to be more objective and not be blinded by your idolation of Glenn Reynolds.
By a strange coincidence, today when I went to the vending machine I received two bag of nuts when I paid for one. And then I came here and read this comment thread.
reader_iam,
i know of no one who is "challenging" ann about whether her kids should or should not SERVE.
the question related to whether she would still support the iraqi invasion, fiasco, whatever...IF HER KIDS WERE SERVING.
get it??
*as to MY comment regarding no one caring about her kid's "privacy," i was probably unclear. what i meant was that i don't need to know anything about her kids...other than what relates to the "serving" issue.