"... 'Oh, is this a "Trump is Hitler" book?' No, Trump barely figures in this book. When we hear Weimar, we think of the film 'Cabaret' and corruption, and we think it all ended up in Nazism. But that is a superficial understanding of it. We have created in America today, perhaps throughout the West, the psychosocial conditions of Weimar without having suffered the traumas that Germany did — losing the First World War, hyperinflation, and the Great Depression. This also goes back to Hannah Arendt and her famous 1951 book, 'The Origins of Totalitarianism.' She tried to explain how it was that right-wing totalitarianism in Germany and a left-wing version in Russia rose, and she said social atomization is by far the most important factor...."
Says Rod Dreher, quoted in
"'I'm Worried About Weimar America'/'It may not be Hitler 2.0. It may not be Stalin 2.0. It might be something all American, but it’s not going to be what we’re used to,' the author Rod Dreher argues" (NYT). This is Ross Douthat's podcast "Interesting Times," and you can listen to the whole thing and read the transcript
here (and elsewhere).
Bonus: "What is fascism?"
@surgephilly Anti-Fascists failed to define fascism during the NYC Pride March. One of the Anti-Fascists mentioned that she took a fascism class. Even she could not provide a definition. Why stand for something but remain uninformed?
♬ original sound - ⚡️SurgePhilly
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151 comments:
Now that is professional self=promotion from the get-go. "I'm worried about [insert book title. Tell people that is the title of your book. Continue to blab.]"
Obligatory George Orwell quote on fascism:
“The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of régime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7524827-the-word-fascism-has-now-no-meaning-except-in-so
"She tried to explain how it was that [national socialism] in Germany and [international socialism] in Russia rose"
Fixed that for you.
Also note that "antifa" and proto-wokeness date back to Woody Guthrie in 1942 or before:
"All You Fascists" lyrics:
"I'm gonna tell all you fascists you may be surprised
The people in this world are getting organized
You're bound to lose, you fascists are bound to lose
Race hatred cannot stop us this one thing I know
Your poll tax and jim crow and greed have got to go
You're bound to lose, you fascists bound to lose
All of you fascists bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose
All of you fascists bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose
You’re bound to lose! you fascists!
Bound to lose
People of every colour marching side by side
Marching across these fields where a million fascists died
You're bound to lose, you fascists bound to lose
I'm going into this battle, and take my union gun
We'll end this world of slavery before this battle's won
You're bound to lose, you fascists bound to lose"
http://www.protestsonglyrics.net/Political_Songs/All-You-Fascists.phtml
The guaranteed positive arc of history...on the path to reach utopia...now 80 years on...
At least the anti-fascist was appropriately dressed as a clown.
The people marching for civil rights in the 1960's had no trouble defining racism.
I don't think things are nearly so bad as the media, including social media, would have us believe. But to the extent that we are going down this road, the best comparison is Spain--a country divided almost 50-50, with the two halves gradually drifting further apart, turned to street violence and assassination until one side decided to just toss the whole system and start over.
"What is fascism?"
Most of your commenters here don't know what fascism, Nazism, or communism is either. Randomizer thinks, incorrectly, that National Socialism is just a variety of communism, which is in stark opposition to communism. The Nazis biggest enemies while they were gathering power were the communists.
"When we hear Weimar, we think of the film 'Cabaret' and corruption..."
Don't forget the 1919 foundation of The Institute of Sex Research by Magnus Hirschfeld and Arthur Kronfeld in Berlin. Very apt.
“Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” — Benito Mussolini
** is this a "Trump is Hitler" book?**
Learn your history. It's a "Trump is Hindenburg" book.
**Freder Frederson said...The Nazis biggest enemies while they were gathering power were the communists.**
Don't kid yourself. That's not evidence that they weren't almost exactly the same. The fact that you think it is just means you don't know enough to be in this conversation.
"Wait, no, but I wanna talk..." Hilarious.
"The Nazis biggest enemies while they were gathering power were the communists."
Internecine quarrels are always the worst.
Cynical Publius FTW.
We don't have political leadership anymore. The elected Federal government is 100% owned and operated for the corporate elites. Most of what passes for politics like trans, environment welfare healthcare and the administrative bureaucracy Is all window dressing keep the minions fighting among themselves.
This is a pet peeve. I don't believe hyperinflation was the problem. Instead, I believe, the Weimar's Republic's austerity packages were responsible for rising extremism in Germany. The German version of the Republicans thought that the government needed to slash spending and transfers as well as implement higher tax rates to balance their budgets. When these dummies implemented these economic policies during the Great Depression, employment slumped and critical public services were reduced. There was significant suffering in the population and this led to an explosive growth of support for the Nazi Party.
I just think the business press keeps on drawing the wrong conclusion from the Weimar Republic. Austerity does not help when you are a deep recession. You want to balance the budget? Do it when times are good. Like right now.
Democrats in the US are going so far as trying to replicate Weimar Germany but with the words transposed
"The Social Democrats were democratic only so long as they were not the ruling party; that is, so long as they still felt themselves not strong enough to suppress their opponents by force. The moment they thought themselves the strongest, they declared themselves— as their writers had always asserted was advisable at this point— for dictatorship. Only when the armed bands of the Rightist parties had inflicted bloody defeats on them did they again become democratic “until further notice.” Their party writers express this by saying: “In the councils of the social democratic parties, the wing which declared for democracy triumphed over the one which championed dictatorship.”
"Of course, the only party that may properly be described as democratic is one that under all circumstances— even when it is the strongest and in control— champions democratic institutions."
Mises, Ludwig von (1927). Liberalism
Trump, it will distress them to realize, has been a moderating opposition to the march to dictatorship the Democrats have been on. But that doesn't remove the risk of another faction of socialism winning as happened when fascists beat out the Marxists in 1920s Europe.
The real threat is that like the German professors before 1930, the US professors have been inculcating into their acolytes the ideology that when it found a name became known as Nazism.
"For more than seventy years the German professors of political science, history, law, geography and philosophy eagerly imbued their disciples with a hysterical hatred of capitalism, and preached the war of “liberation” against the capitalistic West. The German “socialists of the chair,” much admired in all foreign countries, were the pacemakers of the two World Wars. At the turn of the century the immense majority of the Germans were already radical supporters of socialism and aggressive nationalism. They were then already firmly committed to the principles of Nazism. What was lacking and was added later was only a new term to signify their doctrine."
---von Mises, Ludwig (1947). Planned Chaos
So Mr. Crunchy Con has new thoughts? Hmmm.
"The Nazis biggest enemies while they were gathering power were the communists."
I don't think that is the slam dunk point that you seem to think it is. Both of them were fighting over the power to control and destroy individual freedom. Which is the essence of totalitarianism. Some things never change.
We have a Congress that doesn't function and an executive regularly thwarted by judges. Thankfully, we've had only spasms of political violence, but local govts aren't willing to act, depending on the culprits, so it could flare up again any time.
Rod Dreher. Ross Douthat. Are they the same person?
(Rhetorical. I don't really care.)
"the psychosocial conditions of Weimar without having suffered the traumas" One of the traumas was revolution right after WWI, squashed with difficulty. What will it take to resist the Mamdani/Platner/AOC/Bass faction?
Rod's interesting but a bit of a LOL-cow. His audience seems to be people who are moderate/liberal who read the NYT's and want conservative content without having any of their core beliefs challenged. Plus people who are vaguely Christian.
His political and religious beliefs are incoherent. He's hit on a new idea "Weimar America". And warning the Establishment that they'd better address problems or they'll be sorry. Notice he's not saying the Establishment is wrong, he's saying they need to manage things better, and be more reasonable.
And there's no reason to believe that will happen. Rod's doing what conservatives always do, claiming that if things go too far, then "They'll be a civil war". And who's going to start it? Not them. Some mysterious somebody over there, who's "Mad as hell and not going to take it anymore".
But i got news for Rod, there is no "somebody else". And if there is "civil unrest" the European elite will quash them like a bug, like they did to the Brits who rioted after the 3 girls were murdered and the other immigrant on native white crime.
One thing about Dreher that flies under the radar is this - he's a warmongering neo-con. He alludes to it in the conversation "I totally supported the Iraq War". He hates Tucker Carlson because Tucker has criticized Israel. And you'll see almost zero criticism of Israel's war crimes in his writings. Or attacks on Christian Zionism, despite his being an Eastern Orthodox.
**Spiros said...This is a pet peeve. I don't believe hyperinflation was the problem. **
The core problem is that they put monarchists in charge of the transition to democracy. People who wanted Weimar to fail. Not unlike Britain, which voted for Brexit and then put Remainers in charge of implementing it. Britain is seeing very Weimar-like results.
A few kind words for the Weimar Republic; Whatever its shortcomings it was certainly better than the Nazi regime that came after it and the Junker regime that preceded it. It wasn't just the Nazis and the Communists who tried to overthrow it. It was the artists and intellectuals who propagated the idea the Weimar was corrupt and not worth saving......That's the way it goes with artists and intellectuals. The only thing that keeps their Utopian vision from becoming reality is THEM. Get rid of THEM and humanity's problems will be solved.
“Most of your commenters here don't know what fascism, Nazism, or communism is either. Randomizer thinks, incorrectly, that National Socialism is just a variety of communism, which is in stark opposition to communism. The Nazis biggest enemies while they were gathering power were the communists.”
And AntiFA originally was, and continues to be, a communist front organization. Nearing a hundred years ago, the Nazi Brown Shirts (Naziism is a form of fascism) and AntiFA Black Shirts were fighting in the streets of Germany for the heart and soul of socialism in Germany. The Nazi Brown Shirts won. So, no surprise that communist AntiFA and fellow travelers call their enemies “Fascists” or “Nazis”.
Fascism and Communism are different forms of socialism. The big difference is ownership of the means of production. For Communism, it is the state that owns the means of production. And that is why it’s fated to inevitably fall behind economically.
People miss this about Weimar and Hitler's rise to power. Stalin ordered the German Communist party NOT to form a popular front with the liberals/socialists to stop Hitler. Stalin thought the Nazis would accelerate the destruction of the bourgoise and lead to communist rule.
But things didn't turn out that way, at least in the short run. Which is why the communists did form popular fronts to stop fascism in France and Spain.
Why mar the United States of America?
“Howard said...
We don't have political leadership anymore. The elected Federal government is 100% owned and operated for the corporate elites. Most of what passes for politics like trans, environment welfare healthcare and the administrative bureaucracy Is all window dressing keep the minions fighting among themselves”
Such crap. What are the biggest budget items. Welfare, Medicare and other social services. You cannot have it both ways.
"The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe.”
― Tom Wolfe
Best of luck Mr. Dreher. Hard pass from me.
boatbuilder said..."Both of [the Nazis and Communists of Weimar Germany] were fighting over the power to control and destroy individual freedom. Which is the essence of totalitarianism."
I think this is it; thank you for that. (I hope I paraphrased you correctly.)
The big difference is ownership of the means of production.
State ownership is defining element of communism. It is pretty weak tea to contend that Nazism, which did not nationalize industry or institute land reform is just another form of socialism.
One of the reasons we won the war, is that the U.S. and Britain actually had better control of the economy and war production than the Germans.
Hitler purged the party of the socialists in the late '20s and threw his lot in with the industrialists. Granted, the rhetoric remained tinged with socialism, mostly because Goebells came from the socialist wing of the party. The plans for the conquered east was outright feudalism, German landowners using Slavic serfs to enrich the German people.
I sympathize with people who dislike the way the Establishment handles dissent on important issues. In Europe criticize Immigration or support for Ukraine and you're labeled a Communist or a Nazi. And the left and right Establishment parties will join together and use any means to keep dissenting views from being heard or getting traction and power.
If you have an IQ over 100 its frustrating to hear people refuse to engage on the issues and just call people names - "Nazi" "fascist" "communist". Or blather endlessly about whether someone is a "Nazi". But Establishment does it, because it works. Stupid people and dishonest smart people don't want to debate, they want to force their views on everyone else.
Europe post WWI was less a coherent political ecosystem than an assortment of scavengers fighting over the corpses of failed monarchies. Vultures vs Hyenas. Worst for the nations that "lost", but the victors fared little better. See Russia, Italy, Spain. Do hungry carrion eaters have anything motivating them other than hunger?
I think people put too fine a point on left-vs.-right for what happened during the 20th century. IMO, the wars and bad governments followed from:
1. The Industrial Age matured -- steamships and trains and steel armor and tanks and bio-chem weapons became common. The world became a clear and easily navigated space. No more blind exploration -- regional Great Powers became global Great Powers for the first time.
2. Many provincial people who previously heard news from local churches and word of mouth shifted to mass media (again Industrial Age maturity). They read cheap newspapers and listened to the same radio broadcasts. They became politically educated/unified but remained stovepiped in history too.
3. WW1 came after a huge Great Power p*ssing contest to build empires in S. America, Africa, Oceana, and everywhere else. Russia/USSR expanded to adjacent territory, the USA kept to the Western Hemisphere, while Europeans went overseas.
4. Utopian political groups identified the limitations of old-time monarchs but had never tried their grand new ideas. They built on the French/USA secular (agrarian) governments but formed techno-autocratic models. Nazi Germany and the USSR were different flavors of this. Both were centralized, both autocratic, both tech focused, and both expansionistic.
How do you create and defend an old-time empire but fool the secular utopian idealists into supporting your cause? Who will volunteer to be cannon fodder in the next conflict? Greta? Greta? Greta? It's the same story with change-oriented politics. today. The wolves wear sheep's clothing as long as possible.
"In Europe criticize Immigration or support for Ukraine and you're labeled a Communist or a Nazi. "
And this country, and you can add criticism of Israel to the list, is different how?
Original Mike--you paraphrased me correctly.
Hayek's The Road to Serfdom lays it out pretty clearly.
Maybe Freder, who thinks the problem with fascism is that the fascists don't go far enough, should read it.
"One of the reasons we won the war, is that the U.S. and Britain actually had better control of the economy and war production than the Germans."
You don't think Nazi Germany had total control over their economy/war production? I doubt that very much. We won the war because the US was bigger and had access to considerably more resources.
The Bill of Rights is a unique and precious institution. Cherish it. Do not trade comfort for freedom. The siren song of socialism has been playing for a long, long time.
"Maybe Freder, who thinks the problem with fascism is that the fascists don't go far enough, should read it."
Well, you sure as hell didn't paraphrase me correctly
Sebastian?
Plus the fact we could build things without having the shit bombed out of the factories. Wonderful thing, that ocean.
The Modern democratic party is Soviet - and they demand one party rule and obedience.
"You don't think Nazi Germany had total control over their economy/war production? I doubt that very much."
No. German war production was chaos. Krupp, Siemens, Porsche, Junker, Henschel, Messerschmidt, were all jockeying for favor with their own designs. Tank and plane production was particularly cutthroat.
"Hayek's The Road to Serfdom lays it out pretty clearly."
Have to get around to reading that someday.
I still haven't seen any support of the claim that Fascist socialism and National Socialism were "right wing". Both were collectivist anti-Capitalist movements.
Freder: "Well you sure as hell didn't paraphrase me correctly"
"State ownership is defining element of communism. It is pretty weak tea to contend that Nazism, which did not nationalize industry or institute land reform is just another form of socialism."
Perhaps I misunderstood. Are you a socialist? Are you in favor of nationalizing industry or instituting "land reform"?
My point is that when you want "the government" to take over "the means of production," the road only goes one way.
"Everything in the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."
"I still haven't seen any support of the claim that Fascist socialism and National Socialism were "right wing"."
Well, then, you are not paying attention. Did the Nazis implement land reform, nationalize industries, establish collectives? Also, look at their plans for Eastern Europe. They were planning on setting up a Feudal State.
Original Mike--I held off for a long time because I thought it would be a tough read. It's not, really.
Are you a socialist? Are you in favor of nationalizing industry or instituting "land reform"?
Generally, no. And what do my personal politics have to do with historical facts.
"And this country, and you can add criticism of Israel to the list, is different how? "
The difference is that the folks criticizing Israel never criticize the barbaric Islamic societies at war with Israel who don't believe in or observe the human rights they claim Israel violates. Somehow the blame always lands on the Jewish nation and never the Islamic barbarian nation. And then the most motivated anti-Israel activists, often radical anarcho-Communists aligned with Islamic terrorist groups, attack Jews because they are Jewish. That's how you can tell the anti-Israel movement is driven by Jew hatred and not justice or concern for human rights.
"They were planning on setting up a Feudal State."
As opposed to the commies, whose motives were pure, and whose states were not feudal...
German Nazis were generally weary of and opposed to Bolshevik Communist (although both wanted control of Poland as a buffer from each other). That tension was racially based. Economically and politically, their ideology was based on Marxism, as was Fascist Italy. There are differences in how they implemented Marxism. Fascists in Italy believed in few centrally controlled corporations managing the means of production. They called the corporations private but functionally were public controlled corporations. Bolsheviks believed that the corporations should be within the government, although they were still individually identified by function. Germans did both. All killed their internal political opposition in large numbers once in power to rid themselves of those that would get in the way of their utopian Marxist future.
“"I’m worried about Weimar America. That’s the title of the next book I’m working on.”
The Global Warming and AI worryspaces are getting too crowded. It’s hard to get noticed there anymore. So it makes sense for Dreher to try to pioneer a new one.
"What is fascism?"
Asking that question means you’re a fascist.
"Did the Nazis implement land reform, nationalize industries, establish collectives? Also, look at their plans for Eastern Europe. They were planning on setting up a Feudal State"
I didn't say They were Communists. Communists called anyone that opposed them "fascists".
The USSR set up a feudal State as well.
Fascists and Nazis were just different flavors of socialism that opposed Communism. Both were led by anti-capitalists who were in socialist movements before founding their own movements. Both claimed that their movements were a perfection of Marxism.
You didn't list anything that shows they were "right wing".
Germans nationalized the labor force to gain central control of the industries. They did this through the National Socialists Workers Party union. It was a different way to control the means of production than Fascist Italy and Bolshevik Communists, but it was socialist Marxism. Arguing it didn’t do those things because they poorly implemented central planning is not evidence they didn’t try. It is evidence that central planning is worse than free markets.
"The difference is that the folks criticizing Israel never criticize . .." .
Which has fuck all to do with your original comment that "In Europe criticize Immigration or support for Ukraine and you're labeled a Communist or a Nazi."? My point is that you will also be called a Communist or a Nazi in this country also. I have been called both. I am neither.
I'm curious as to why you are arguing so hard for a "right wing" vs. "left wing" distinction between "fascism" and "communism," when the difference between full-blown state coercion and full blown "nationalizing" is, from the point of individual liberty, non-existent. Just because you would prefer to require those of us on the "right" to bear the "Nazi" burden doesn't make it true or correct.
50 comments and no one has gone for this:
I’m worried about Wiener America.
Seriously. It started with Anthony Wiener, who now seems almost childlike by comparison to what came after.
Then there was the chopping off and sewing on of wieners in the service of the trans agenda. And of course the putting of wieners in skirts (preferably uniform ones) and women’s athletic uniforms.
And recently the tumbrelling of Scott Wiener for not being an anti Zionist.
Yes we live in Wiener America. The Great Wiener War.
CC, JSM
For us sub 100 IQ intellects, this is like watching chickens peck at the worms we throw to you, knowing that if we stop, you will starve, but never stop pecking.
Let us turn to the creator of fascism for its definition: Benito Mussolini.
“All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state”. Sounds like the Democratic party’s slogan. Government is our God. Bernie is in favor.
Did the Nazis implement land reform, nationalize industries, establish collectives?
This is dumb. The Nazis and the Commies were both totalitarian ideologies. Stalin and Hitler had a lot in common. That's why they signed the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact. They wanted to carve up Poland and all the countries between them.
Hitler betrayed Stalin, just like Stalin betrayed Trotsky. In a parallel universe, Stalin betrayed Hitler. None of these mass-murdering dictators are worthy of trust. Using terms like "right" or "left" to describe them is academic masturbation.
Is an Islamic terrorist state on the right or the left?
My answer is, who gives a shit? Using a term to describe where the French parked their ass in 1789 to describe an Islamic terrorist state today isn't helpful.
The big important question is who is supporting the dictators today? Israel has a democracy. The citizens vote. Including non-Jews.
How is that "right to vote" stuff coming along in the rest of the Middle East? How is Hamas doing with its human rights agenda? And, in the USA, who is supporting the democratic regime Israel (the Republicans) and who is supporting the evil, dictatorial, terrorist regime Hamas (many of the Democrats).
I call "socialists" Commies, and if they are Hamas-supporting socialists, I really fucking mean it. The people cheering murder? That's a problem, FF, and it's your team that's caused it.
@john mosby --
Google AI lyrics on "Weiner," "Weimar," and "Oscar Meyer."
"Verse 1: The Inflation Blues
Oh, I wish I were a Weimar Republic Weiner,That is what I’d truly love to be!
Because if I were a Weimar Republic Weiner,
A billion marks would buy a piece of me!
Verse 2: The Digital Age
Oh, I wish I were an Anthony Weiner Weiner,
Sending out a midnight DM spree!
Because if I were an Anthony Weiner Weiner,
The tabloids would expose my history!
Chorus: The Grand Meltdown
Oh, my currency is crashing to the floor,
And my typing skills are causing quite a war!
From Berlin streets to a congressional seat,
The whole career is walking out the door!
Verse 3: The Finale
Oh, everyone would love to take a bite,
Of a system built on panic and on fright!
Yes, if I were an Oscar-Weimar-Weiner,
I’d vanish from the public eye tonight!"
If nothing else, at least the right chooses it's leaders democratically.
Socialism is bad economics and Communism is bad economics + murder.
The current crop of Marxists don't just have bad economics, they've also added the kill-thrill side of supporting murder and terrorism.
Bad economics (socialism) + support of Hamas = Communism.
Add hatred of the Jews, and I think Nazi is a fair name to describe this group of people, too. I know that "Nazi" word gets thrown around a lot in our discourse. But ask the Jews, if you know any Jews, if any of them are a little spooked by this current crops of socialists.
Fascism/Nazism and communism are two sides of the same coin fighting over control of the same space. Just like Democrats and Republicans are the two wings of the uniparty bird fighting over control of the same nest.
"Just because you would prefer to require those of us on the "right" to bear the "Nazi" burden doesn't make it true or correct."
In this country, everyone who proudly calls themselves a Nazi, is right wing. Before World War II, the supporters of Nazism were right wing. It is ridiculous to claim that Nazism is a left wing philosophy.
"The people cheering murder? That's a problem, FF, and it's your team that's caused it."
Many people on this very site have called for the genocide of Gazans (some even suggested turning Gaza into glass, ignoring the fallout that would drift into Israel) and Muslims. Trump himself threatened to end the Iranian civilization (the definition of genocide) and you all cheered him on.
Historical comparisons are tiresome.
FWIW, the stated goal of DSA, from one of its leaders, is communism. He’s not confused.
Sure, Freder. It's ridiculous to claim that "National Socialism" is a left wing philosophy.
"It is ridiculous to claim that Nazism is a left wing philosophy."
It is not ridiculous at all to observe that Italian Fascism and National Socialism were 2 of the schisms of the various socialist movements that were battling it out for power in post WW1 Europe. They were both anti-capitalists in the Marxist sense according to their own words. Thats not right wing in the slightest.
They were both led by men whose political careers began in socialist parties, who rejected Marxist Communism because it wasn't going to work, so they "perfected" it. Because thats what they were.
It is a historical fact that democrats and some republican traitors allied with the largest corporations on earth during the Biden administration to censor, persecute, and attempt to jail and kill their political opponents.
Where did COVID originate? If you said in an NIA funded Chinese lab the Biden administration and all of their supporters tried to destroy your life censor you and throw you in jail.
They have tried 3 times to kill Trump.
The democrat party and everyone in it is the same as the people who supported Hitler and the same as the people that supported Stalin.
It doesn’t matter what you name them. They are doing the same things they did.
"How is that "right to vote" stuff coming along in the rest of the Middle East?"
Or in Maine, for that matter.
Freder Frederson said...
"Just because you would prefer to require those of us on the "right" to bear the "Nazi" burden doesn't make it true or correct."
In this country, everyone who proudly calls themselves a Nazi, is right wing. Before World War II, the supporters of Nazism were right wing. It is ridiculous to claim that Nazism is a left wing philosophy.
None of your obfuscation works anymore.
You support the same things the NAZIs supported.
It was never right vs left. It was about people like you who want to use the government to steal other people’s stuff, import foreign invaders to attack your political opponents, and put the people you disagree with in jail.
You just can’t be honest about what you support and who you are.
" Trump himself threatened to end the Iranian civilization (the definition of genocide) and you all cheered him on."
We ended Nazi Germany's government in much the same way. Was that a "genocide" too?
I don't get why you think Iranian Islamic Nazis who want to nuke Israel deserve more consideration than Nazi Germany.
Right versus left can be a useful metaphor, but it isn't an overriding, all-dominant, all-governing template. One has to recognize the places where it doesn't exactly fit or where it breaks down. One also ought to recognize that there are different rights, lefts, and centers in different places at different times.
"Accelerationism," the idea that a collapse is coming and one has to hasten it to clear the ground for what comes next, seems to be a common element in Weimar Germany and today's America.
If fascism does come, it will be because everyone else is with Rod Dreher in exile or in the catacombs. Is this book a repudiation of his earlier work urging retreat from the secular world?
Years ago I knew an elderly woman who had lived in Italy under Mussolini. She immigrated to the US after World War II. She always maintained that America was fascist, because corporations had so much power through their influence with Washington. It was a great shock to her when she moved here.
"You just can’t be honest about what you support and who you are."
The more disturbing problem is that so many people know and just don't care. There have always been radicals, but we have an epidemic of dumb, emotional people obsessed by their politics. This is the parallel with 1930's Germany. It was the people voting democratically that let down the whole country by the same dynamic - not a majority, but enough.
We already have Weiner America. Have you seen Florida?
A governing authority is characterized by coercion.
God bless you Sgt Ted. There will never be enough evidence to convince them of reality, much less of historical facts such as how Italy’s fascist movement originated.
To those arguing “fascist” with Ted: The word itself describes a collective, that iconic bundle of sticks, right? How many right wing collectivist movements can you name?
I can tell you one thing. The German Democrats, Communists and Nazis in the 1930s had about 10 IQ points on the MSNBC Fox watching morons in 2026. Read their stuff and then go read the MSM. What a joke this country is.
Accelerationism seems necessary to all sides because the size and tenacity of the system and its bureaucracy seem to make real change impossible.
I don't agree with that. My MAGA desire is to simply have real crimes prosecuted until fraud, theft, and corruption are reduced by at least half. A necessary part of that is to get our elections as secure and trusted as most other Western nations. That's all very hard, but doable over time, if we can first get elections secure. Without that, we might as well have the collapse.
The elected Federal government is 100% owned and operated for the corporate elites.
No, it's owned and operated for the government employees holding overpaid, underworked sinecures with gold plated benefits, from which it is practically impossible to fire them, and their orbiting cronies in the left-wing NGO complex that hold even less demanding e-mailing/nail-filing jobs. Together they hoover up the lion's share of the money that they piously demand the rest of us must spend on social betterment, keeping most of it for themselves and kicking back rivers of tax dollars to the coffers of the Democrat Party.
Anyone who has never read the "Manifesto of the Fascist Intellectuals" from 1925 is not qualified to say whether fascism is a left-wing or right-wing tendency.
Go and have a look at it, it can readily be found on-line. Read aloud the long list of demands made in that document to your lefty friends, one by one, and ask them whether each one was said by, say, Bernie Sanders, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, or Donald Trump. You will be shocked at the results.
Glenn Reynolds has been pointing out for years that Hitler was the result of Weimar, not the cause
Communism and fascism are two rival gangs adhering to the same goal of taking over our lives. The Soviets and their fellow travelers want us to believe they are opposites, but they know this is not true.
Nothing says fascist about Trump, now or before, and he has always been a powerful man who would have shown it early.
Back in 2016, I didn't support Trump until he was the only choice left, but I knew who he was, his values, his strengths and weaknesses. We all had a long history to read, if we wanted. My biggest concern was that as a former NY Democrat, he would be too liberal. He still is, but not too bad. He's basically JFK with more confidence.
"We already have Weiner America. Have you seen Florida?"
What?
Anyone who has never read the "Manifesto of the Fascist Intellectuals" from 1925 is not qualified to say whether fascism is a left-wing or right-wing tendency.
Actually the founding document of Fascism that most clearly sets out their point-by-point list of demands is the "Fascist Manifesto" of 1919, by Marinetti and de Ambris. Its full title is "The Manifesto of the Italian Fasces of Combat".
The "Manifesto of the Fascist Intellectuals" of 1925 covers much of the same ground but is in narrative form. It was largely authored by Giovanni Gentile. Both documents had considerable input from Benito Mussolini.
"State ownership is defining element of communism. It is pretty weak tea to contend that Nazism, which did not nationalize industry or institute land reform is just another form of socialism."
No, they're both just different forms of unchecked statism. The biggest differences are (a) communists engage in the rhetorical fiction that everything is directly owned by the "workers," despite the fact that a governing elite actually controls everything; and (b) Nazis dispense with that fiction and hold that the state per se comprises the essential soul of the nation, to which everyone owes allegiance. It's really more of a question of which myth is being relied upon to justify the imposition of rampant statism.
The fact that Nazism and communism are different doesn't mean that one is "left" and the other "right." They're both left. Right means yes to individual rights and personal freedom, yes to free market capitalism, and no to big government.
Dogma and Pony Show, that's exactly how I see it, but you said it best. 100~
“Is an Islamic terrorist state on the right or the left?”
For a few years we hoped they were behind us. Now we can see that they’re right in front of us. 12 o’clock high.
Original Mike: I think RCO was referring to the shape of Florida on a map.
I worry more about the grotesque obese consumeristic Walmart America
“I can tell you one thing. The German Democrats, Communists and Nazis in the 1930s had about 10 IQ points on the MSNBC Fox watching morons in 2026. Read their stuff and then go read the MSM.”
Read Das Kapital and Mein Kampf and then read Dreams From My Father. It’s more than 10.
@Hassayamper at 11:52 --
I copy this verbatim because it should be carved on stone tablets 100 feet high and placed on the DC mall. Forget the arch, this will have an impact. The only thing missing is the role of partly right-wing Veterans Preference recipients in the military/law enforcement agencies and the revolving door of fed-contrator-fed jobs. The military budget for 2026 = $1T.
"No, it's owned and operated for the government employees holding overpaid, underworked sinecures with gold plated benefits, from which it is practically impossible to fire them, and their orbiting cronies in the left-wing NGO complex that hold even less demanding e-mailing/nail-filing jobs. Together they hoover up the lion's share of the money that they piously demand the rest of us must spend on social betterment, keeping most of it for themselves and kicking back rivers of tax dollars to the coffers of the Democrat Party."
Umberto Eco's How to Spot a Fascist is a perennially internet-popular guide. Though to my eyes, it's really hard to see where fascism and socialism (real socialism not that Christian type) separate. Maybe some minor differences in public pronouncements, they both seem to end up in the same place though.
"I worry more about the grotesque obese consumeristic Walmart America"
I bet you do. Who cares about fascism, communism and the increasingly public adoption and proclamation of their goals and values by American political figures, when there are fat people out there buying things?
The properties of imprisoned Jews and other social desirables was distributed among those the party deemed worthy. All the heads of the major industries were called before Goering and told that they were now working for the Reich. In fact the leader of Krupps embraced Goering at the news. German industry during the war was highly organized despite our bombing. In fact Germany was producing more tanks in the spring of 1945 than they were in the spring of 1941. Fascism was still a form of socialism. Germany's may not have been identical to Mussolini's, but it socialism none the less.
Lord Howard fears the working class. Poor people gotta shop somewhere, Lord Howard.
12:31 - Dogma and Pony show -
That is spot on.
The political labels of Left and Right date back more than two centuries to the Estates General and subsequent National Convention at the time of the French Revolution. Those who wanted to preserve the monarchy and aristocracy sat on the right side of the chamber, informally at first and later by pre-arrangement. Those who wanted to overthrow the old order in favor of republicanism sat on the left. To the extent that those labels map to today's political parties, every political party and tendency in America would be on the Left.
Arguing about who is leftist or rightist nowadays is merely bandying semantics. It's far more illuminating to speak of libertarianism vs. statism. Does a party or political tendency believe the individual counts for more than any other entity, and legitimate government exists only to guarantee his personal and economic liberty? Or does it believe that the point of an individual's existence is to support and glorify the State, and that all his property is subject to confiscation and his liberty to revocation at the whim of the government of the day?
It's a vast divide. On one side is the Republican Party, minus a few God-bothering Christian Nationalists who want to institute a theocracy, and a dwindling cohort of sensible centrist and center-left Democrats. On the other side is a horde of government-worshiping scum that range from the Mamdani and Sanders crypto-communist DSA types to the avowed communists and actual Fascists. These people are our enemies, and must never be allowed to hold the whip over us.
"We ended Nazi Germany's government in much the same way. Was that a "genocide" too?"
Yes, we ended their government. That's not the same as ending the entire civilization, and the same is true about Japan.
We did try to end the civilization of Native Americans, and almost succeeded.
Naziism aligns with Platner's Tattoo - and the evil boy on the roof who killed Charlie Kirk.
That's Leftwing Nazism - straight up.
"All the heads of the major industries were called before Goering and told that they were now working for the Reich. "
And the heads of GM, Ford, Chrysler, Boeing, Douglas, U.S. Steel, et. al., weren't?
I worry more about the grotesque obese consumeristic Walmart America
Why is that a worry? Aesthetics aside, it's a victory. Thanks solely to the fruits of free-market capitalism, we are the very first civilization in mankind's time on earth to have disgustingly fat poor people buying steaks and ice cream and big screen TV's with their welfare handouts, instead of walking skeletons with rickets and protruding kwashiorkor bellies who own nothing beyond a mud hut and a dhoti to wrap their loins.
Enemy leftist scum like "Bread-Line Bernie" Sanders want to take us back to the bad old days.
It wasn't Goering, it was Speer. And of course the U.S. equivalent was the War Production Board.
Anyone have a 1943 Ford or Chevy for sale (that wasn't originally a military staff car)? Didn't think so.
Freder Frederson said...
"All the heads of the major industries were called before Goering and told that they were now working for the Reich. "
And the heads of GM, Ford, Chrysler, Boeing, Douglas, U.S. Steel, et. al., weren't?
Actually it was google, facebook, Microsoft and apple, salesforce etc that democrats and the Biden administration worked with to persecute and censor Donald Trump and his supporters.
You and the rest of the democrat party leaders and supporters teamed up with the biggest corporations in the world and the biggest government in the world to attack your political opponents.
You did exactly what the members of the national socialist workers party did in 1930’s Germany.
You voted for a party that is right now attacking and killing Jews because they are Jews.
You are a terrible person supporting terrible people who are doing terrible things.
"You voted for a party that is right now attacking and killing Jews because they are Jews."
You are constantly railing against the "Globalists", which is usually a euphonism for "Jew". I would really like to know who, exactly, you think is this international cabal of "Globalists".
"You are a terrible person supporting terrible people who are doing terrible things."
Have I ever advocated for imprisoning, exiling, or executing 30% of this country's population? Look in a mirror if you are looking for a terrible person.
Fascism is short for a fast-schism. Not to be confused with fat-schism which is related to an unhealthy breakfast.
"In this country, everyone who proudly calls themselves a Nazi, is right wing."
No, everyone who proudly calls himself a Nazi ALSO CALLS HIMSELF right-wing. American Nazis are repudiated by the American right. (American Communists are embraced by the American left - the mainstream left thinking it will be able to control them, the lefty left cheering them on.)
"No, everyone who proudly calls himself a Nazi ALSO CALLS HIMSELF right-wing. American Nazis are repudiated by the American right."
This sentence makes no sense it all. But I think I know what you mean, and that doesn't make sense either.
Nazis as left wing is a tired "hot take" professed by mediocre or disingenuous thinkers and the crayon eatng shitbirds, with an ax to grind on the internet.
What do MAGAts and Nazi's have in common?
Heres a few:
Ultra-nationalism
Nativism and anti-immigration
Authoritarianism/ strongman Rule
Populist "Anti-Elite" narratives
Ethnonationalism (blood and soil)
Traditional gender roles
Glorification of violence and militarism
Anti-Communist and anti-marxist
Freder seems to think that he can claim Democrat FDR's fascism with the War Powers Board, he is somehow proving that today's Democrat party is not still fascist.
Fascism was super popular in the 1930s all over the world, including by Democrats right here in the US. Democrats loved them some Adolf... until he Invaded The Precious, which was Stalin's utopia. Then, and only then, did Democrats as a whole turn on Adolf. Because they while they loved Adolf, they loved Stalin more.
Same as now, really. Democrats like Freder fully support tearing down statues of Lincoln and Washington... but that statue of Lenin that is in Seattle? Don't anyone touch it!
Read some history Freder. Speer came after Goering.
"No. German war production was chaos."
You weren't arguing the War Production Board. I showed you that even after all the bombing Germany succeeded to produce.
The difference was. We managed to produce more of the right things.
*Right means yes to individual rights and personal freedom, yes to free market capitalism, and no to big government.*
It's collectivism vs individualism.
Freder is a collectivist, and doesn't like being lumped in with the other collectivists (Nazis). So, he tries to change the definition.
Whether Hitler was the cause of Weimar's problems or Weimar was the cause of Hitler's ascent to power, what was most important was the lie: the lie that Germany didn't lose the war and the lie that Germany's military rulers didn't accept the loss and end the war. Germany's defeat was blamed on leftists and Jews and civilian politicians. Ludendorff and Hindenburg and the German military never admitted their country's defeat and responsibility for its loss.
Germans also forgot Clausewitz's lesson that war was policy (or politics) by other means. They were too attached to the idea that there was greatness and glory in going to war with the whole rest of the world to form rational foreign relations.
Starmer, Carney, and Macron are more or less globalists. So is Bill Gates. Not a Jew among them. I wouldn't overuse the term, but it's not an anti-Semitic code word.
When I read 'globalists' my mind went to the World Economic Forum. Freder's went elsewhere.
"Original Mike: I think RCO was referring to the shape of Florida on a map."
Jeezz…
" I showed you that even after all the bombing Germany succeeded to produce."
You didn't show me shit. You just stated an unproven assertion.
"And the heads of GM, Ford, Chrysler, Boeing, Douglas, U.S. Steel, et. al., weren't?"
If someone wants to argue that FDR agreed with aspect of Marxist philosophy; I'm listening. However, I don't know how such an argument bolsters the additional argument that Marxism as practiced by Fascist or Nazis is akin to American right-wing philosophy. Neither the Bolsheviks, Nazis, Fascists, or FDR adhered to free-market principles.
RideSpaceMountain, now define “corporatism”. It doesn’t mean what many Americans, maybe most, would assume
Freder Frederson said...The Nazis biggest enemies while they were gathering power were the communists.
Then why did the Russians allow the Nazis to train their pilots and other soldiers secretly in Russia in the run up to WW-II. Away from the prying eyes of the West. And why did Germany and Russia sign a non-aggression treaty which Germany later violated.
Freder repeats every misconception about the Nazis. Others have pointed out a few.
regarding land...
The Nazis had a program Called 'Blut und Boden' with strong restrictions on ownership, speculation, and labor. Look up 'Erbhoefe' for an example.
The idea that AH was controlled by the industrialists is laughable. He set their prices, their product development/new product plans, controlled their boards, and set the value of labor.
Yes, industrialists thought they could control him.
Wrong. So they kow-towed.
German military production did increase throughout WW2. Quality suffered, yes. But they kept pushing stuff out despite the bombings.
Easy enough to find.
When I read 'globalists' my mind went to the World Economic Forum. Freder's went elsewhere.
If you always hear the dog-whistle, you're the dog.
It's really disappointing how many of Althouse's readers are so historically ignorant. I could only waste time reading a few of the idiots, Freder, as usual, comes to top the list and, again only read a few recent ones, fortheloveofice has to be a propaganda puppet to post such idiocy for the world of Althouse to see.
Douthat is always such a thoughtful and intelligent interviewer. I always enjoy him.
I agree that Nazism and communism were both totalitarian and crushed individual freedom. However, the entire political right isn't generally defined solely as individual rights, free markets, and limited government. That’s a good description of the libertarian or classical-liberal right; historically, the right has also included traditionalists, nationalists, monarchists, and authoritarian movements.
So, just because Nazism and communism both involve a strong state doesn’t automatically make them both left-wing. Different ideologies can use similar methods to control people. Historians usually see Nazism as far right because of its nationalism, racial hierarchy, and opposition to communism, but they also acknowledge the significant totalitarian similarities between the two.
Because Nazis called themselves “National Socialists” also doesn’t really help us figure out their political ideas. Political party names tell us about how they’re marketed, not what they actually believe. North Korea calls itself a democracy and a republic but we don’t think it’s both.
German military production did increase throughout WW2. Quality suffered, yes. But they kept pushing stuff out despite the bombings.
As an airplane-obsessed kid I loved the "Dam Busters" movie and I really respected the ingenuity that the Operation Chastise bomb designers showed. I always thought that the massive floods that the two major dam breaches caused in the Ruhr Valley, Germany's industrial heartland, would have badly degraded their production of war materiel. It wasn't until much later that I learned that the disruption to production was quite modest and considered rather disappointing.
Honest to God.
Doesn't get the joke.
Thinks its someone else's fault.
Gets it explained.
Gets upset.
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Wont say. Someone will write "What?".
As for the Nazis being "leftists". I'll skip over all the dumb nonsense about "What is a leftist" and just go with what the common understanding of a leftist in USA 2026.
By that definition, the "nazis" were leftists. They called themselves "National Socialists" to differentiate themselves from the Communists aka "International socialists".
Both the communists and the Nazis were against the capitalism. Both believed in using the Government to make a better society. Both believed using force to achieve that. Both believed parlimentary Democracy was a sham.
But the Nazis didn't believe in "the state" owning all property. Or that "Socialists have no country" or that all races and ethnic groups were the same.
That's why the commies hated National Socialism so much. They were both working the same side of the street and targeting the same people - the poor and the working class.
Trying to explain this to the Fox News, Mark Levin crowd is almost impossible. Germany in the early 30s had 25 percent unemployment. This was after a Hyperinflation in the 20s that had wiped out the savings of the middle-class. Needless to say, nobody was interested in "Muh Free Market" or listening to some wealthy fatcat telling them to "use your bootraps".
Accordingly, part of the working class turned to communism. They got 14 percent in the 1932 German election. Almost 40 percent voted for Hitler. People were hurting and they needed help. The center parties just did their usual "Hey I'm OK - fuck you" .
RC Cola - yeah - the best way to get that "help" is to blame and round up and kill all the Jews.
"Right means yes to individual rights and personal freedom, yes to free market capitalism, and no to big government."
I wish this were true.
"Honest to God.
Doesn't get the joke.
Thinks its someone else's fault.
Gets it explained.
Gets upset."
If that's directed at me, I'm far from upset, and don't understand "Thinks its someone else's fault."
But yeah, I had to have your dick-joke explained to me. I'm sure you had them rolling in the aisles in the Poconos.
A person using the name Ryan Landry had a podcast or blog on similar themes called Weimerica Weekly from 2015 to 2017 that was very sober, well-written and insightful. I think he stopped publishing around August 2017, and indicated he hoped to do something more impactful, but (owing to his use of a pseudonym), I do not know what became of him.
“All the heads of the major industries were called before Goering and told that they were now working for the Reich. "
“And the heads of GM, Ford, Chrysler, Boeing, Douglas, U.S. Steel, et. al., weren't?”
It was (D)ifferent.
If anything it was a really a matter of degree. Did big industry cooperate so significantly with the federal government because of threats? Or maybe populist nationalism? Was it more carrot stick?
Keep in mind that we only really lost our neutrality between Germany on the one side, and the Soviet Union on the other, after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and Germany, as an ally of Japan declared War on the US. Before that, there had been a strong pro-Germany segment of the US populace. One prominent figure there was Joseph Kennedy, then Ambassador to the Court of St James (the UK).
In the 1920s, there was still a decent anti-socialist portion of the populace. But the sentiments that gave Hitler, Mussolini, etc power as Fascists, fit better than the state appropriations of wealth found in the USSR.
So, yes, FDR and the Dems did adopt fascist/socialist policies not that different from our enemies. But couldn’t say it, because they had declared war on us.
Some principles, admirable in peace, are suicidal in war. If you don't survive, neither do your values. Most people abhor the killing of another, but some people need killing regardless.
"This sentence [my 'No, everyone who proudly calls himself a Nazi ALSO CALLS HIMSELF right-wing. American Nazis are repudiated by the American right.' - two sentences, and I'm not sure which one is being referenced] makes no sense it all. But I think I know what you mean, and that doesn't make sense either."
What's unclear? Is it that people can claim to be whatever they want but it doesn't make them what they claim to be? That's the first assertion I make, and I don't see how it's anything but a statement of fact when you get right down to it. It's simply true that I can claim to be Greek, for instance, or a Wiccan, but I'm not, and the group in which I claim membership is in charge of policing who is and who isn't in it. The American right does not recognize American Nazis as part of its "big tent."
My second assertion, that the American right repudiates American Nazis, seems to me also to be a statement of fact. Am I wrong?
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, which has an agenda but is as good as anything on that period, is pretty clear that the ultimate causes was the corrupt Weimar government, which was thoroughly infiltrated by the Communists, was allowing them to violate both laws and norms. The general public hated the street protests, vandalism, destruction, interference with daily life, etc., and they hated that the government was allowing it, so they tolerated the Brown Shirts because they pushed back against the Commies by having street fights with them.
Kind of reminds you of a certain corrupt government that allowed its party's associated paramilitaries to Burn, Loot, and Murder, doesn't it? Once that happens, things go in either of two ways: Communists win (Russia, China, etc.) or the party fighting them wins (Germany, Spain, Peru). In both case the real, normal people lose.
"The Nazis biggest enemies while they were gathering power were the communists."
Right, like in 1919 the Bolsheviks biggest enemies were the Mensheviks.
You don't often find someone so despicable that their living and dying relatives and entire town hate him so much.
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