"This gets wizard behind the curtain, right? Somebody's going to say, 'Well, how do you know who was the wizard behind the curtain?' All I know is I saw the gravity shift. Okay? If you were at MTV or around MTV in 1997–98, suddenly they decided rock was out—right when rock was still very, very high up—and it was replaced by rap. They immediately changed their standards and practices. Things that weren't allowed were suddenly allowed; people were waving guns. Okay, so some people assert that the CIA was involved in all that—again, above my pay grade—but I saw it happen. I did witness it happen. And of course great music came out of it. So it's not like a barren wasteland where something was pushed in to replace something else. Qualitative things and great artists came in, but there was this overt shift. I saw it happen. And then now... rap seems to be waning in terms of its cultural influence. Pop is completely dominant. Rock is probably the most dominant ticket-selling thing in the Western world, and yet there's almost no representation of rock in culture. So why do we have that schism? I think they purposely dialed down the ability of rock stars to have a voice in the culture...."
Says Billy Corgan:
Posts
138 comments:
Corgan isn't wrong- name a great rock band that arose after the year 2000-I can't think of a single one. While I was really a child of the 1970s and 1980s, there was huge number of great, new rock bands during the 1990s that age 20+ me loved a great deal but it really did seem to fall off a cliff after 2000. Even rap and hip-hop's quality fell off a cliff after 2000- there isn't a single rap song made in the last quarter century that can hold a candle to literally hundreds of such songs from the late 1980s to the mid 1990s.
“And of course great music came out of it. So it's not like a barren wasteland where something was pushed in to replace something else.”
Yes it is. Rap is not music.
Years ago when we lived in NZ and my son was in high school for one year in the US, I heard rap. I said to him, “What in the hell is that?” He said, “That’s music for black people and white kids who think they are black.” I would still dispute the “music” part. Otherwise, nothing has changed.
Rock 'n' roll will never die...
Rap created a desert, and called it peace.
Because for Rock, after the pinnacle of David Lee Roth, there was only the other side of the mountain.
Excerpt from band meeting, Seattle, mid-90s:
SINGER: I was looking at the songs we have for our new album. We have nine songs, and six of them are about heroin.
BASS PLAYER: Yeah. I'm not so sure about this...
SINGER: Exactly. So I wrote two more songs about heroin.
I am Laslo.
Agree - Corgan is not wrong here.
The guys get shirts - Paul Anka
Or it could be that the rock of the 60's 70' 80' even 90's (most not all) was so great (cant' top Led Zep for instance) that no one can compete with it. Circa NOW - The lack of actual music playing talent or skill in the rock world, is real.
Rick Beato would agree.
(fixed)
Now music is created in a lab - most of the time.
No "History of rocn n roll in 500 songs" tag?
John Henry
It wasn’t the CIA. The CIA is barred by law from domestic operations. And why would they mess with this? It was no conspiracy.
The answer is the white liberals who run the music business wanted to make money. Rap was growing in the ghetto. It gives people - who are not musically talented - a way to express themselves and make money. The libs also felt guilty.
Rap is the ultimate affirmative action plan for non-talented Blacks.
Rap degraded the Black culture further; if that was even possible.
Corgan has been saying this for a while, now, and it's on several podcasts.
Rick Beato has thoughts:
Also, there is a good chance Corgan is Bill Burr's half-brother!
No music has the legs that Rock does, not Rap, not modern Pop, nor anything else that came before or after. Classical lasts, but not in the popular sense. I'm not sure what it is about Rock, and I know I'm biased, but it still sells itself and products of all kinds even after it's creators are elderly or dead, and it's original fans collecting SS. I was very lucky to have lived to watch it all happen, swimming in it the whole time.
Rappin' is an ancient art. Rock and roll, too.
I know who Corgan is, but have no idea about the other guy. Apparently some sort of occultist (or anti-occultist).
Seems absurd, but then whodathunk that the "Free Clinic" was run by the CIA as research into mind control through halucenagenic drugs.
"It wasn’t the CIA. The CIA is barred by law from domestic operations."
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! You should read the book "The Instability of Truth" that Althouse was blogging about a while back.
Now Hip-Hop & Rap is on the downslide.
Yeah, "the CIA". LOL. Anyway this sort of thing has happened before. The Entertainment Industry decides to stop pushing this product and push another. Or that this group that used to be shown as heroes now will be shown as villians. Or that POC will now be in every commerical and TV show, and white men will always be shown as villians or fools.
CBS got rid of a lot of TV shows in the early 70s that were still popular - but they considered them "too rural" and axed them. And all three networks decided Westerns were out, and Private Investigators and Cop shows were in.
Is rock really "the most dominant ticket-selling thing in the Western world"? Does the "Last Chance to See the Rolling Stones Before They Are Dead Tour" really outsell Taylor Swift? I don't know. I'm asking. Even if it does, that doesn't say anything positive about a future for rock.
60 years ago, suburban teens were either in the garage starting up a rock band or in the garage working on cars (or at least in their rooms working on model cars). Now the youth are either on their phones or playing video games. Even if they are "into" music, they are less likely to play it than their grandparents were. So no, there was no conspiracy from above to dethrone and dismantle rock. It was a fashion like ragtime or swing (or rap).
I'm guessing the "most dominant ticket selling" is probably for acts that predate the new millennium.
He's correct. . . . .I can't think of any groups offhand I've liked that have come around since 2000. Well, I really like Mumford and Sons. . . .I want to say streaming has killed 'talent' as companies are putting out dopamine-hitting singles instead of substance. But then, schools have literally dumbed down everything over the last 40 years and I think it's likely no one's really getting intense musical instruction in school. I can't think of a really good guitar player I've heard of since 2k except for Joe Bonnamassa.
Maybe they're out there, as sort of an underground movement on Spotify or whatever. I find most music of the last 20 years occasionally entertaining but not really listenable.
A good rock song could move the Overton Window. In fact, the more you think about it, Rock is the only mainstream genre of music that deals with themes of foreign policy. Country doesn't, well, you did have "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town," but I am not sure that that one was strictly country. If Rap has a song like Ruby, or even Last Train the Clarksville, for that matter, I have never heard of it,
"No "History of rocn n roll in 500 songs" tag?"
The podcaster, Andrew Hickey, is very clear that his history ends with the year 2000. There may be new rock music after that point, but the era is over.
Rock was never my "thing." ...I'm old enough that I can sing along with The Righteous Brothers. Anyone here remember them?
A googl search reveals that this [link below] is labeled "blue-eyed soul," although I have no recollection of hearing that description, back in the day.
Original recordings are available on YT, but this guy does a pretty great job of covering "Unchained Melody," one of my all-time favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7yjZHD7ZhU
Has any music other than Rock and Pop had widespread mainstream appeal in the last 50 years? Rap, Hiphop, punk, etc. have all appealed to sections of the public - but never widespread demographic success.
"Rap is the ultimate affirmative action plan for non-talented Blacks. Rap degraded the Black culture further; if that was even possible."
The existing conspiracy theories — as explained by Grok — say that gangsta rap was advanced to move black people into materialism and crime and away from politics. That is, it was designed to subordinate them.
There is as much shitty Rock as Shitty Hip-Hop/Rap. Most music sucks.
History follows a model of rocking and rolling with rapping at the fireside, on knuckles, etc in low energy states.
Snoop is a beloved figure in the U.S. he’s the new Bob Hope. Conspiracy theories are bullshit
Like a lot of things, music has become splintered and fractured into sub-genres and small, independent niches. There is still good, new music out there, but it will never resound the way Rock did.
Corgan’s show is really good. Somehow the algorithm fed it to me - maybe after Rogan interviewed some rocker, or after I watched Live from Daryl [Hall]’s House. Musicians talking to each other about music. And usually some Chicago anecdotes. Corgan and I are the same age and we listened to the Loop, MET, etc. Way cool. CC, JSM
Music and culture in the world were used to destroy common social fabrics and to reduce national unity on a global scale.
Rap in the US was specifically aimed at destroying the nuclear family and creating a harem mating pattern which led to millions of children being raised without fathers.
This was not by accident.
Boston, Foreigner, AC/DC, Van Halen. Popular bands that sucked.
Springsteen always sucked.
When you talk about rap music, you need to stick a C in front of it.
Well grunge was terrible as was vanhalen under sammy hagar
I offer Exhibit A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcvoSoUT7EE&list=RDAcvoSoUT7EE&start_radio=1
If you want to listen to a great rock band out now listen to "The Warning" on Youtube or Apple Music (or wherever you get your music). I saw them live in Orlando, Fl. They write all their own songs and have been playing together since the youngest was 9 yo. They have 4-5 great albums spanning 10 years.
The Smashing Pumpkins haven’t had a good album since 1998. Is Corgan part of the conspiracy?
I think this was all part of the splintering of the music audience going on in the 90’s. Before Nirvana, the music broadly called “rock” was popular with both men and women. When grunge hit, the rock audience in general started becoming predominantly male. While in the early 90’s, the grunge stuff coexisted with poppier music and new wave on the radio (and on MTV), by the mid-late 90’s the heavier stuff and the poppier stuff were on different stations (when the local “alternative” station started playing Metallica was the signal for me). By the end of the 90’s popular rock was Limp Bizkit, Korn, and the like, which drove most of the rest of the ladies away (see the Woodstock 99 documentary). That, to me, was the point when rock became a niche style.
There are lots of great rock bands that have come along since 2000 but the Killers are the only one I can think of that have achieved the mass popularity at the scale of the bands of the pre-2000 era.
[Intro: Scarface, Interviewer]
To see, a black rock band, like
[Imitates the riff of "Cult of Personality"]
Who the fuck was this, man?
[Continues to imitate the riff of "Cult of Personality"]
Man, who in the fuck is this fucking group, man?
What year you talking?
90's
Living Colour?
Who?
Living Colour?
Living fucking Colour, Living fucking Colour
Find me another-, find me another black rock band
Fishbone, Mos Def tried to do a rock band
Find me another rock band, seriously
[Chorus 1]
We’re living like we're programmed
Like TV’s our reality
We can’t escape the program
They only show us what they want us to see
“Rap degraded the Black culture further”
Not rap, but the crack wars of the ‘90’s. Or rather, how White Leftist media hyped the crack wars.
Real progress was being made in the 1980’s. Since the very existence of the Democrats depends on keeping Black people in a state of dependency and resentment, that progress had to be torpedoed. And they’ve been doing it relentlessly ever since.
Those were one hit winders though
Despite all his rage Corgan's still just a rat in a cage.
Long live Rock
I need it every night
'Is the heart of rock and roll still breathing'
“Also, there is a good chance Corgan is Bill Burr's half-brother!”
And the interviewer looks like the prawn of Glen Campbell’s loins!
“ Does the "Last Chance to See the Rolling Stones Before They Are Dead Tour" really outsell Taylor Swift?”
I saw the last chance to see Dylan before he was dead 15 years ago at the Chicago Theater. Lousy show.
“Boston, Foreigner, AC/DC, Van Halen. Popular bands that sucked.”
Boston, yes. But the others listed shouldn’t be included on a shit list… said shit list should include Styx, REO Speedwagon, most of the 80s hair/spandex bands, KISS, post-‘75 Eagles, Heart…
Good Lord… that’s just a start.
It's all about Money. Rap albums and girly Pop singers are a lot cheaper to record than Rock bands. They don't do expensive things like bring string sections in to the studio, record them, then scrap everything because it's just not working. Also, you're only dealing with one artist you have to manage instead of five rock stars, one of whom has a likely chance of OD'ing and dying while you're in the middle of recording the album.
Personally, I think that the music industry is all about money and profits. They don't want to interfere in the culture or delve into social commentary unless they can make money by doing that. They would much rather guide the culture into a direction that gives them more profit than do anything to actually improve the culture.
Rock and roll will never die
I like to Rock. I like it. You like it.
I know it's only Rock & Roll, but I like it.
In my day girls swooned over the Beatles and Stones. Now they swoon over K-pop. I think the basic problem is that the quality of girls has gone down.
Okay, so some people assert that the CIA was involved in all that—again, above my pay grade—but I saw it happen.
So we’ve circled back to “everything that goes wrong anywhere in the world must be the fault of the CIA”? I thought we got over that in the 1980s but maybe it’s returned.
“everything that goes wrong anywhere in the world must be the fault of the CIA”
No today everything wrong everywhere is caused by politicians who used to work for the CIA.
"They don't want to interfere in the culture or delve into social commentary unless they can make money by doing that. "
Depends on what you mean by "culture" and "Social commentary". Per Ye (or whatever his name is now) Record companies put a clause in Rappers contracts sayng they wont make songs about Christianty. And when Charlton Heston tried to shame media execs by reading out the lyrics of a song promoting killing cops, he was greylisted by WB and the other big media companies.
He was also then satirized on TV comedy shows as an old fuddy duddy. And as Medved as stated for years, Hollywood could make more money making PG and G movies, but they'd rather make toxic crap.
Broadcasting business veteran here.... MTV followed the money, that's all. The age of the Big Rock Star ended around 1995. So Corgan's timing is not wrong, but I don't think anything caused it to happen; it just happened. Rap singles were beginning to sell like crazy, and its popularity has continued without a hiccup, right into the streaming era.
Why should rock uniquely be more enduring than big band or ragtime or bebop. It had its moment, and it was a fine moment, but time moves on. Some of it will endure. The Beach Boys will probably have the staying power of Mozart and Rodgers & Hammerstein. Some of the others not so much, but there's some great music from that first fine flowering........In any event, it's more fun to talk about the future of rock than the future of Iran.......I now rate the Beach Boys higher than the Rolling Stones. I didn't see that coming. .
Seems to be a fall back position of losertarians and conservatives that media execs are steely eyed capitalists and not interested in DEI or promoting Leftism. They're always imagining some CEO will step up and be the only adult in the room and force the leftist movie makers to stop selling Leftwing slop and make more $$. And that's all in their imagination. It never happens.
Ellison didn't take over tiktok to make money.
At some point kids stopped starting bands. Ow if you’re a kid who plays guitar you don’t start a band and learn how to write songs, you go to The School of Rock and learn how to play “Stairway to Heaven”.
Also, pop music has become a visual medium. It doesn’t matter if the music is canned and the the vocals prerecorded as long as the dancers are in sync.
We Boomers have lived most of our working lives being blamed for just about everything. Well we’re retiring — and dying — and it’s time for GenX and Millennials to step up, but so far I’m not particularly impressed. I don’t like your music. I don’t respect your “leadership.” I don’t respect your lack of creativity. And I don’t see a whole lot that looks like a work ethic. Maybe it’s time to quit whining and get going.
RCOCEAN II said...
Ellison didn't take over tiktok to make money.
We shall see.
If one weren't so West-centric one could find some of the best rock ever in Japan and elsewhere. Band Maid inparticular is incredible, with over 150 fantastic compositions from a 10 yr career so far.
https://youtu.be/a6ZSvmnkS00
What Big Mike said @1245.
Is Coldplay rock?
"Here's a synthesis of the top tours for 2025:
Coldplay – Music of the Spheres World Tour
Gross: $464.9 million
Attendance: ~3.5 million
Shows: 59
(This ongoing multi-year tour had strong 2025 legs, topping some Billboard reports for the period.)
Beyoncé – Cowboy Carter Tour
Gross: $407.6 million
Attendance: ~1.6 million
Shows: 32"
Big Mike, we look at the massive deficit your generation left us, the current broken political system full of boomers, and how generations after you are set up for decreasing returns and wonder what kind of glass house you live in.
So you don't like our music?
Vocal music requires tempo, lyrics, melody and usually harmony. Rap lacks the last two, so it’s not music. Not to even mention that 99% of the lyrics are filthy garbage.
It's the same old "My generation was the greatest ever" schtick. Rock music is a footnote now.
"Big Mike, we look at the massive deficit your generation left us..."
The national debt has increased every year since the oldest boomers were in grade school. Social Security was given to us by the Greatest Generation. Medicare/Medicaid and the Welfare State were given to us by them, and the Silent Generation. Boomers were the first generation to spend their entire working lives being taxed for those programs.
But sure- it's the Boomers fault.
“Boomers were the first generation to spend their entire working lives being taxed for those programs.“
And now they’re gonna die.
Shit.
I think of bands that got under my skin, (mostly due to over-exposure) and now I like them.
I hated Journey. Now - if a Journey song comes on - I crank it... and my appreciation for Steve Perry's voice. yeah. baby.
It's not always about what sounds good - but what IS good.
Bands I detest that are popular with most:
u2 - and not just because Bono's a dick.
Pink Floyd - and not just because waters is a dick.
there are more.
Yes, Boomers are dying out. But in centuries to come we will be remembered in legends of the Golden Age, the time when Giants bestrode the Earth like gods and performed heroic deeds never to be equaled.
It all may have started back in the 80's with Al Gore's wife and subsequently in the 90's, Janet Reno picking up the baton.
"While Tipper Gore was the central figure of the 1980s rock lyrics controversy, Janet Reno was primarily involved in separate, later debates regarding media violence in the 1990s.
Tipper Gore: The PMRC and the "Filthy Fifteen"
Tipper Gore co-founded the Parents Music Resource Center (PMRC) in 1985.
Catalyst: The movement began when Gore bought Prince's Purple Rain for her daughter and was shocked by the lyrics to "Darling Nikki".
The "Filthy Fifteen": The PMRC published a list of 15 songs they found most objectionable due to sexual, violent, or drug-related content, including tracks by Twisted Sister, Madonna, and Prince.
Senate Hearings: In September 1985, Gore testified before the U.S. Senate, leading to the music industry's voluntary adoption of the "Parental Advisory" sticker.
Janet Reno: Anti-Violence Legislation
Janet Reno, as U.S. Attorney General in the 1990s, was not a founder of the PMRC but addressed similar concerns through a legal and legislative lens.
Media Violence: Reno famously threatened the television and movie industries with anti-violence legislation unless they took voluntary steps to reduce violent content.
2 Live Crew Case: Before becoming Attorney General, as a prosecutor in Florida, she was involved in the legal aftermath of the 2 Live Crew obscenity case, where the band's lyrics were targeted for being "obscene".
Gore vs. Reno Roles: While Gore focused on parental labeling and "truth in packaging," Reno's role often involved legal threats to regulate the industry's output of violent material.""
The backlash (against censorship) may have resulted in the pushing down of Rock so that Rap could flourish, or something. It may have been an affirmative action for Rap, if you will.
very little rap is listenable.
Laslo Spatula said...
Because for Rock, after the pinnacle of David Lee Roth, there was only the other side of the mountain.
Excerpt from band meeting, Seattle, mid-90s:
SINGER: I was looking at the songs we have for our new album. We have nine songs, and six of them are about heroin.
BASS PLAYER: Yeah. I'm not so sure about this...
SINGER: Exactly. So I wrote two more songs about heroin.
I am Laslo.
Take a trip back about 20 years from the beginning of rock to the days of bebop. Everybody was on heroin. A fine tradition among musicians. Somehow it didn’t seem to affect their ability to play.
Springsteen!
He always sounded off key to me. Asa musician, I couldn't stand his singing. Clarence Clemmons on sax was a different matter. He was one of the Rock greats.
Gore’s Wife was a typical Boomer. So was W
Corgan's comment implies that there are shadowy figures with the power to dramatically alter the culture. Who????
well the other band were more subtle about it, (wasn't the house of the rising son' about addiction,
yeah whats wrong with Journey, or Foreigner for that matter,
"His kind of music is deplorable, a rancid smelling aphrodisiac. It fosters almost totally negative and destructive reactions in young people.” Sinatra talking about Elvis.
And he wasn't wrong. But the bigger point is that people are emotionally connected to the music that was popular during their youth (roughly teens through 20s) And not emotionally connected to stuff later, though they often connect to what is earlier because of parent or elder influence.
MTV was always about chasing the money and to an extreme. It went for rap because rap was a huge audience it wasn't reaching yet.
The best sign of its actual goals came when it minimized and dropped music altogether becoming the reality tv network that paved the way for all the other dedicated cable networks to follow its lead, dropping their distinctives for the lowest cost programming and gutting American culture.
The other factor in the lack of good music is that in the 20th century companies were limited how many stations they could own in a market and overall. Then clearchannel and others started buying out the entire national market so every radio station became cookie-cutter and music labels produced those cookies.
The radio DJs of the mid-20th century were really the best sources of new and experimental artists, giving people a chance that such people would never get later.
There's a lot of good music out there still but it's limited in exposure because the gatekeepers won't play it and the greater amount of poor quality stuff drowns out the good so people can't find it or don't think it's worth the effot.
I can listen to just about anything I think of on demand, including Billy Corgan. I can be my own deejay. Spotify is about $13/month. In 1979 I would pay $8.98 for one record, which in 2026 dollars is about $33. I don't give a damn about gatekeepers or the CIA or the rest. These are the days of miracle and wonder and don't cry baby, don't cry.
Feats have never failed me!
Andy Travis: Les, why do you think there are so many rock-and-roll stations?
Les Nessman: I always thought it was a conspiracy.
'WKRP in Cincinnati'
“Yes, Boomers are dying out. But in centuries to come we will be remembered in legends of the Golden Age, the time when Giants bestrode the Earth like gods and performed heroic deeds never to be equaled.”
Hoping future generations are too historically illiterate to seperate Boomers from the Boomer’s parents is a best case scenario.
Jeffrey Epstein was a Boomer.
Miley Cyrus still writes Rock music mixed with other influences. Same with Taylor Swift etc. Rock and Pop. Pop is a feminization of Rock.
I identify Rock (heavy guitars and drums) with macho energy and we all know that is a no-no in the culture. (The Beatles were Rock but British, so more refined.) I am not surprised that Rock got shuffled off, but am surprised about the deliberate substitution with Rap which is macho misogyny on steroids. Women are not loved and romanticized as they were in Rock, in Rap they are fckd c's and hoes. But it's Black, and liberals like feeling they are being rebels against the system by being so "unracist." The idea that this musical genre was promoted to devastate the Black community with their own stink is diabolical.
"Great music came out of it". I disagree.
The last great rock band of the 20th Century:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Q-SFkywXg
Who doesn't love a rock song taking the side of Whittaker Chambers?
I am Laslo.
Whatever happened to black rock? Was it canceled?
People with guitars became people you snickered or sneered at or just avoided at all costs. The guy who played you his guitar riffs or air guitar act became the most boring and pathetic guy in the dorm. Why this was so, I do not know. Better to not even mention the Joan Baez or Joni Mitchell chick.
Black Rock went into real estate and made a fortune. You'll be getting an eviction notice from them next week.
When they stopped playing instruments, they stopped making anything worth a damn.
Zappa was prophetic. MTV killed rock music.
From Mr.D: “I can be my own deejay. Spotify is about $13/month. In 1979 I would pay $8.98 for one record, which in 2026 dollars is about $33.”
For the artists, this means:“In 2025, 1 million Spotify streams generate between $3,000 and $4,000 on average. The exact payout depends on your listeners' country, whether they use free or premium accounts, and your distribution deal. Independent artists usually keep more of this income than signed acts.”
No Maseratis there, anymore. A million plays and the bass-player’s share is a case of beer.
No money in it now save for the Taylor Swifts, where the music is just part of the bigger celebrity package.
Give it a few more years: most new music will be AI, made for pennies, and worth every cent.
I am Laslo.
I’m having a difficult time naming a really good rock band that formed after 2000 - best I can do is Greta Van Fleet or the Alabama Shakes.
The National is quite nice. And of course Sabaton! CC, JSM
"Lazarus said...
People with guitars became people you snickered or sneered at or just avoided at all costs. The guy who played you his guitar riffs or air guitar act became the most boring and pathetic guy in the dorm."
Blutarsky agrees
Florence and the Machine. A mystic/prog-rock band with a harp - what's not to like? CC, JSM
"Rap is the ultimate affirmative action plan for non-talented Blacks. Rap degraded the Black culture further; if that was even possible."
Not familiar with jazz, gospel, blues, R&B? And add Rock to the list.
Rock grew out of the Southern Baptist and Methodist hymn traditions. It had “soul.” The massive decline in observance means the soul has vacated the music, rendering it irrelevant. Get ready for the next Great Awakening.
"Bands I detest that are popular with most:"
Doobie Brothers. "Well, talkin' 'bout your China Grove
(talkin' 'bout your china grove)
Whoa, oh (whoa, oh) China Grove
God.
’There's a lot of good music out there still but it's limited in exposure because the gatekeepers won't play it and the greater amount of poor quality stuff drowns out the good so people can't find it or don't think it's worth the effot.’
There is some truth in that, but the way acts get big is touring. Two of my side hustles in the last twenty years have been 300-capacity and 700-capacity bar / live music venues. We had bands on the way, on the way down, and those who were happy on the road making $1,500 a gig.
It’s rough and it truly sucks, but my venues have hosted several bands who played for less than $200 who later charged hundreds of thousands, even seven figures for gigs. They paid their dues, built a following, and made it.
The three acts that some of y’all may know are: The Avett Brothers, Alabama Shakes, and Sugarland. The latter was not our genre, but Jennifer Nettle played at our smaller venue as a solo act (kinda Goth and depressing music, but she had a decent following) and begged us to have Sugarland play for $150.
*Jennifer Nettles. She’d kick my ass for that typo. lol
Crap! I was going to suggest the band Ours as an example of a more recent rock band. The lead singer, Jimmy Gnecco, has an amazing, multi octave voice. Almost opera like. I discovered them post 2000 - but they formed in 1997! So close......
Spotify has no gatekeepers I am aware of and I find "new to me" music all the time there.
It was the Telecommunications Act of 1996, a "bi-partisan," and hence utterly craptastic piece of legislation that allowed the conglomeration and subsequent standardization of all the previous independent radio stations. Before 1996, entities weren't allowed to own too many stations so there was an immense diversity of radio stations and an incredible variety of music bubbled up from quirky program directors and experiments with playlists (there's a good YouTube video about how Christopher Cross' 'Ride like the Wind,' which his record company didn't think of supporting, suddenly taking off on Latino radio stations in Florida and then spreading 'virally' across the country and into the top-40).
After '96, IHeartRadio, Cumulus, and Cox centralized and standardized everything, eliminating local program directors and imposing the playlist from the corporate headquarters. This enabled record companies to more determine which artists would have success, and the frightening corruption and violence in Rap (Suge Knight, for example) had led to rap artists, across the board, having much more corporate-friendly contracts than rock acts, particularly older ones, and so quite rapidly there was a substitution of rap for rock. The rise of manufactured boy bands dates from around this time as well.
All the media conglomerates should be broken up in a Teddy Rooseveltian push to trust busting in the final two years of Trump's term. The general public derives absolutely no benefit from the current centralized enshittification.
For the artists, this means:“In 2025, 1 million Spotify streams generate between $3,000 and $4,000 on average. The exact payout depends on your listeners' country, whether they use free or premium accounts, and your distribution deal. Independent artists usually keep more of this income than signed acts.”
That's right. And that's the issue. Unless there are alternative revenue streams, about the only way to make money as a musician is through live performance. And even then it's tough to find a lucrative gig.
It is possible that tastes just changed. If Rap and Hip-Hop was the "Black Music" then the "White Music" from the early to mid 2000's to the mid 2010's was closer to folk music, with bands like Mumford and Sons, Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes, Polyphonic Spree etc. I believe that type of music is now derisively referred to by Gen Z as "Stomp, Clap, Hey" music.
There’s only room for one category of white guys with guitars now, so rock had to team up with country. Just add a little twang to your voice, and instruments, you’re good to go. My steel guitar gently weeps
I grew up listening to normal AM pop-rock stations, and gave some ear to country, but there was nothing better than WDIA.
Where Rufus plugged Icy-Hot: "I - C - Y Icy, H - O - T Hot" to black Memphis; now Shaq shills it to the whole country.
We need an open thread to talk about the war, ann
Beast,
Good stuff. I love Alabama Shakes. Personally I usually go to 100-300 person venues to enjoy live music. Lot of good acts in those venues.
Billy corgan really does creep me out
My son had a Metallica cover band @7 years ago.
Cuŕrently doing medieval music, playing the lute doing the 13th century Cantigas de Alfonso X.
"we look at the massive deficit your generation left us, the current broken political system full of boomers, and how generations after you are set up for decreasing returns and wonder what kind of glass house you live in."
From what I see, every generation since the 1930's would have voted for the same crap, but faster and harder. There is no generation yet that's even close to fiscally conservative. People keep expecting more and more from the government. The programs bankrupting us were started with reasonable guard rails, but later voters keep tearing them down. Now most of the cost is unnecessary, but impossible to cut. In fact, younger voters want even more free stuff.
’Good stuff. I love Alabama Shakes.’
Brittany is a nice young lady. I about shit when she did a duet with McCartney… :)
Small venues are the very best, although it’s tough to make the numbers work at that scale. We weren’t paying our mortgages out of the either club, we just loved the music. And it really helped that we were 100 miles from Nashville and Birmingham, and were happy to have acts play on Wednesday or Thursday nights, catching bands between weekend gigs.
“Ruby” is definitely country and you ain’t lived till you hear Jason and the Nashville Scorchers do it.
As to rock, I like most of it, including the bands being maligned here. I find something to enjoy about almost everything. I love The Carpenters, and I also love Zeppelin, Metallica, and ZZ-top. I like most Grunge, and I love the blues most of all. After hating Disco for decades, I now enjoy that too. I don't like much newer stuff like Rap or modern pop, because it just isn't good. Not creative, not new, or interesting and it's not human expression. It's mostly digital programing and stored sequences with formulated singing and dancing designed to hook the lowest common denominator for streams. AI will fit right in.
And yes to feats don't fail me now. Little Feat is my favorite.
Agree with Corgan.
Although, Green Day is a good counter argument.
Was Bob Dylan a rapper before it was cool?
I'm thinking 1962, Freewheeling album, "Talking New York Blues'
And of course, he didn't originate it, Woody Guthrie et al were doing it in the 30s.
And of course they didn't originate it either, they got it from black chain gang and field hand music of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
And they didn't originate it either, it came over with immigrants from England where it was well Known in the 1600s. (The benefits of having an aunt who worked for Folkways Records and sent us all samples)
John Henry
"Give it a few more years: most new music will be AI, made for pennies, and worth every cent."
Can’t wait to tune into Top of the Slops.
The issue is that you have to already give up everything to become a musician and composer. It takes years -- especially for composers -- to build a portfolio that is credible enough to start getting paid. That's not even counting the training, if, for instance they compose for orchestra (film music).
AI makes this much much harder so that young composers will be put off even attempting to enter the market. In the end, all we'll have is bland, boring music that all sounds vaguely the same. And because AI relies on existing music, it won't change anymore.
Human creativity defines who we are. Our art defines who we are. AI is important in so many areas but art ain't one of them.
re Spotify and 1mm streams generating $4,000 or so.
Compare that to radio. If you had a popular song, that got played on the radio, say, 10 times per day for a week or 2, that might be 100 million listens or more. Individual people hearing the song.
If only WABC played the song 1 time, that could be several million listens.
So yeah, spotify doesn't pay like radio did but it also doesn't get anywhere near the listens, either.
John Henry
’“Ruby” is definitely country and you ain’t lived till you hear Jason and the Nashville Scorchers do it.’
We agree on that, donald. Good to see ya…
Johnny Cash invented gangsta rap with Folsom Prison Blues. CC, JSM
Mark said...
Big Mike, we look at the massive deficit your generation left us, the current broken political system full of boomers, and how generations after you are set up for decreasing returns and wonder what kind of glass house you live in.
So you don't like our music?
I don't like your music and I don't like an ignorant jackass like you. If you were to bother looking at the real data you'd find that deficit spending pretty much began under Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who died in office years before the first Boomer was born. By far the worst deficits in the history of the Republic were under Joseph Biden, who is from the generation before the Baby Boomers. The last budget surplus was under President Clinton, a Boomer.
Mark, you are simply an ignorant lout who is too foolish to investigate before you make your allegations.
The best concert I every enjoyed was Paul McCartney in the Miami area in 2010. My daughter was 16 at the time, a big Beatles fan, and I took her with me. I had won great seats via a radio station call in contest. He played for over three hours with three encores IIRC. Here, via Grok, is an overview of critics at the time:
Here’s a summary of contemporary reviews for Paul McCartney's April 3, 2010 concert at Sun Life Stadium (now Hard Rock Stadium) in Miami Gardens, FL, during his Up and Coming Tour. The show drew around 35,000–40,000 fans and lasted nearly three hours, featuring a mix of Beatles classics, Wings hits, and solo material.
One of the most detailed reviews came from the Miami New Times (published April 5, 2010), which was highly enthusiastic:
The reviewer called it the "definitive winner for best concert of the year" (even though it was only April).
They praised McCartney as the "original" still superior to his musical "progeny," highlighting his enduring quality at age 67.
The setlist was described as a "killer" one, especially for Wings fans (with about 11 Wings songs out of ~37 total).
It opened with "Venus and Mars / Rock Show" and included highlights like "Jet," "Let Me Roll It," "My Love," "Blackbird," "Here Today," "Band on the Run," "Live and Let Die," "Hey Jude," and closed with "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Reprise)/The End."
The tone was glowing: "Sir Paul proved... that while he's spawned any number of musical progeny, the original is still the best."
The Miami Herald review (from April 4, 2010, archived/referenced in later reposts) was similarly positive:
It described McCartney as "more like Superman" at 67, performing 40 vocally demanding songs over nearly three hours with the energy and vocal ability of someone decades younger.
The show delivered "just about every song anyone would want to hear," from obvious hits like "Hey Jude," "Let It Be," "Lady Madonna," "The Long and Winding Road," "Jet," and "Band on the Run" to surprises like "All My Loving," "Got to Get You Into My Life," "I'm Looking Through You," "Two of Us," "I've Got a Feeling," and a first-time live U.S. performance of "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da."
The reviewer marveled: "one could only wonder: How does he do it?" and noted a superb backing band.
Other sources, like the South Florida Sun-Sentinel and fan recollections (e.g., on forums and official Paul McCartney site roundups), echoed the praise for his faithful delivery of Beatles-era glory, strong vocals (flexible from raucous to sweet), and an impressive catalog mining that outshone his prior 2005 Tampa arena show.
Overall, the consensus from 2010 reviews was overwhelmingly positive—fans and critics alike hailed it as an energetic, hit-packed triumph that showcased McCartney's timeless appeal.
Spent a lot of time in the trenches in the music business from '97 until '03, and as an overly avid consumer of rock and alt-rock before that :) I saw it happen as well. It was tangible. P2P didn't help matters much, but that at least affected all the genres. I saw the writing on the wall in '02 and started planning my exit. Rock radio, as it once existed, is pretty much gone.
The last budget surplus was under President Clinton, a Boomer. Sure, but why? Other boomers held his feet to fire so that's a wash.
The complaint is odd, perhaps indicating Corgan has a very limited understanding of what makes up “our culture.” To recall Top Gun, certainly a big cultural maker the first time and the last, immediately brings up Kenny Loggins “Danger Zone” soundtrack. Every car commercial recycles rock music from my youth. Bohemian Rhapsody was the biggest movie a couple years back and Bob Dylan’s biopic just last year. Rock music is so embedded in our culture that Billy can’t see it.
Sounds like he wishes it came with political power. Unfortunately the ones who spoke their minds revealed themselves as shallow Dixie Girl level commenters who really added nothing of substance to the conversation.
The core problem is that the back catalog always competes with the new catalog, and rock exhasted its genre long, long ago.
First there was Elvis, then British Invasion (Beatles, Rolling Stones), then the Classic Rock era (Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, David Bowie, etc.), and arguably 1970s Progressive Rock (e.g., Rush, Yes). THE MUSIC BUSINESS TRIED TO SQUASH PUNK ROCK LONG BEFORE THE SMASHING PUMPKINS EXISTED.
The second generation of rock (Generation X's music) from the late 1970s included punk , hardcore punk, new wave, speed metal/thrash/death metal (Metallica), hair metal, alternative rock / college rock, and grunge. This era 'ended' with Nirvana's "Smell's Like Teen Spirit" (1991) -- the new rock mainstream.
Billy Corgan firmly fits in 1980s to 1990s college/alternative genre and his creativity ran its course a solid 25 years ago.
Rap/hip hop had a huge mainstream start with "Rapper's Delight" (1979), "Red, Red Wine" (UB40, 1983) and "The Roof is on Fire" (1984). It then drifted into crossover acceptance with the novelty hit "Baby Got Back" (1992), the Run DMC, Aerosmith cover "Walk This Way" (1986), and quite a few other Rock-Rap crossover songs of the 1990s.
Rap/ Hip-Hop went fully mainstream with Emenim's "Slim Shady" (1999).
Don't look at new rock music or new rap/hip-hop. Look as sales and listening numbers for the fresh catalog versus the old legacy catalog.
Sounds like he wishes it came with political power. I don't think that's the case with BC. During my time in rock radio, during which the Smashing Pumpkins were at their apex, I was required by my job (and frankly, did it because I enjoyed it) to stay up on the movings and shakings of the various tentpole artists. Actually met him twice. As a performing artist and a producer of others' work, I think his view is far more myopic than what you think it is. When he talks about cultural impact, I think he's refering to what he perceives as, put simply, music sales and on-air plays...and these days streaming plays. Rock is nowhere near what it used to be in those terms. The output of "active rock" in the late 90's through the mid-00's was extremely fertile. Around 2002/2003 is when the stations started closing, the plays went down, and soon after, there was less being sent out weekly by various labels, both new and established artists. We used to get tons of new songs every week on various labels' "air check" compilations. By then it was down to a dozen or so on a good week.
Regarding Mr. Corgan, when one seeks to elevate "rock music" or "rock musicians" to the status of political influencers, one betrays a certain naivete or perhaps an inflated sense of self. As Laura Ingram once titled a book about the soi disant Hollywood elite, "Shut up and sing."
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