"... that it will end only with a
'dirty deal.' But it cannot be a filthy deal, and the Trump plan is what history will call a filthy deal.... As my Times colleague David Sanger
observed in his analysis of the plan’s content: 'Many of the 28 points in the
proposed Russia-Ukraine peace plan offered by the White House read like they had been drafted in the Kremlin. They reflect almost all Mr. Putin’s maximalist demands.'... What would an acceptable dirty deal look like? It would freeze the forces in place, but never formally cede any seized Ukrainian territory. It would insist that European security forces, backed by U.S. logistics, be stationed along the cease-fire line as a symbolic tripwire against any Russian re-invasion. It would require Russia to pay a significant amount of money to cover all the carnage it has inflicted on Ukraine...."
Writes Thomas Friedman, in
"Trump’s Neville Chamberlain Prize" (NYT).
Republican Senator Mike Rounds is quoted at the Post: "[Rubio] made it very clear to us that we are the recipients of a proposal that was delivered to one of our representatives. It is not our recommendation. It is not our peace plan. It is a proposal that was received, and as an intermediary, we have made arrangements to share it — and we did not release it. It was leaked."
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132 comments:
With Friedman weighing in we can reasonably expect that the exact opposite is happening. In fact it is Europe that should have taken the lead in pushing back on Russia but they didn’t. Neither did Bush or Obama. Finally when Trump was elected we started supplying arms and defense systems to Ukraine. But the Autopen admin squelched that support and slow walked every step after that, with a sharply worded, “No!” That was the extent of Biden’s plan, other than extracting more graft and gifts from his son’s former clients.
It’s not our war. Trump appears to be the only leader even trying to negotiate an end. All of Zelenskyy’s advisors have fled or cooperated with the corruption probe that is swamping his administration. We are done enabling Z’s schemes to prolong a war he can’t win.
Has Friedman gotten over his crush on the CCP and the autocratic way they “get things done” finally?
It was leaked.
Neocons gotta neocon. They’ll fight to the last Ukrainian!
Even calling it Trump’s plan is lie, of course. Where is Hillary with her reset button when you need her?
A plan that "never formally cede[s] any seized Ukrainian territory," doesn't sound like a lasting peace deal.
The Chamberlin accusations ignore the reality that Russia is a nuclear superpower. Risking WWIII, in moral disgust over Russia’s behavior, has one hell of a lot more apocalyptic potential that fighting back militarily against Germany in 1939.
The NYT wants the war to continue so that it can bash Trump.
Oh, the bitter clinging to Friedman & Dowd…
War just means there's negotiation friction. The parties differ on what they can win at what cost and there's no area of overlap where both come out ahead not fighting.
I’m ignoring this story but not the post- Friedman’s whining about this proposal as a Kremlin draft- wouldn’t a compromise solution with a superpower need to include large concessions from Ukraine? I suppose it’s a lever of Friedman’s point, if he happened to stumble upon one- if only the US had raided its Treasury larder…
Yesterday was the 62d anniversary of the JFK assassination. Did you notice that the media no longer memorializes it?
If WWI had ended in 1914, 1915, 1916, or1917 on any terms at all, favorable or unfavorable to the Allies, it would have been a better ending to that war. We got a world made safe for Lenin, Mussolini, and Hitler........Take a peace deal and see what happens. No wise man anywhere predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union. No wise man can predict how this peace will work out, but we can be certain that people will die if the war continues.......I don't think Biden negotiated such a great peace deal in Afghanistan. The women there suffered a harsher fate than Jeffrey Epstein's victims.
It’s Thomas Friedman. It’s the New York Times. Why would one expect honest journalism? Might seem strange that the Post, a tabloid (hence its sensationalistic headline regarding Ms. Maxwell) would have the more honest reporting, but this is the 21st century, not the 19th.
And now, thanks to Thomas Friedman, everybody knows about the Neville Chamberlain Prize and yet you never hear anything about the Neville Chamberlain Endowed Chair of Political, Economic and Social Innovation at Oxford.
So why is it that the Post is talking about “the US proposal” and “the framework of the deal”? Is there a real US proposal that has not been made public?
Shouting Thomas said...
The Chamberlin accusations ignore the reality that Russia is a nuclear superpower. …
Yes, Thomas, you’d think people living in New York or Washington would consider how quickly their lives would be over in any nuclear exchange with Russia. I suppose they’ve internalized some variant of “Putin would never,” but he certainly could and probably would.
"read like they had been drafted in the Kremlin. They reflect almost all Mr. Putin’s maximalist demands."
Because they were drafted in the Kremlin and reflect the maximalist demands of the Russian government?
We are condescended to by our inferiors.
The Left is never satisfied.
looks like, if we just wait a while longer;
we can talk to a different Ukrainian Government
Dear Tom, next time call a taxi. Taxi drivers have the best take on these matters.
Trump is Chamberlain AND Hitler now. Golly, I need to learn to keep up…
Leaks. Washington DC is nothing if not a rusty, rotted hull with constant leaks.
And our media is there waiting for their handouts.
The problem is that the war in Ukraine is lost. Ukraine has lost. Europe has lost. Russia can take the entire country right now if it wants to.
Moreover it is not clear that the United States has the industrial capacity to win this war if it wanted to. Not in our current state. We don't build anything here anymore.
The Neocon Desantis wing free trade republicans are just as responsible for this as the democrats.
All of you shitheads that called me a Putin puppet on this board can get fucked. I told you this would happen.
Head fake.
If Flathead is being fed something, something else is really happening.
Head fake.
If Flathead is being fed something, something else is really happening.
gilbar said...
looks like, if we just wait a while longer;
we can talk to a different Ukrainian Government
I told these people what Zelensky was. I was called a Putin puppet.
This is just like COVID all over again. Or the primaries. You people need to stop watching Fox news.
Chamberlain gets a bad rap. He got the best deal he could get at the time, as Britain was not yet ready for another European war. Accusations that he was Hitler's puppet were just so much political propaganda horseshit. Cartoon history.
The Vault Dweller said...
A plan that "never formally cede[s] any seized Ukrainian territory," doesn't sound like a lasting peace deal.
It would have been 4 years ago. All they had to do was sign the Mingsk accords.
All Ukraine had to do was say "We wont join NATO" and stop shooting Yanukovich voters.
The Neocons chose war. Now millions of Ukrainians are dead, Ukraine is going to lose the Russian speaking part of their country where they were murdering Russian ethnics, and Ukraine will stop throwing Eastern Orthodox priests in jail.
Kevin said...
It was leaked.
Neocons gotta neocon. They’ll fight to the last Ukrainian!
This was out days ago. I mentioned it then.
The timing suggests to me that Trump leaked it on purpose to get everyone comfortable with it.
They reflect almost all Mr. Putin’s maximalist demands.'
We were told that Mr. Putin wants to take all of Ukraine and then march on to Poland, Germany, and maybe France. Wouldn't that be Mr. Putin's "maximalist demands"?
Dirty Deals, Done at a Rather High Cost!….AC/DJT. CC, JSM
Out the gate -The liar liar left called it "Trump's plan".
Another shining example of how the cult-left work like a disseminated disease spreader.
That follows up on their big hit Jailbreak ‘24. CC, JSM
Achilles: If Russia could take all of Ukraine "right now if it wants to", why haven't they done so? They certainly tried back in 2022 and failed. Instead of overtaking all of Ukraine, Russia has become bogged down in a meat grinder stalemate. Early on in the war, Peter Zeihan predicted this current outcome and estimated that Putin could keep this up for 10 years.
I think what is informative about today's topic is that Thomas Friedman has articulated the ridiculous and completely unworkable position of the neocon globalist who want to keep this meat grinder going.
Why, you ask? The war in Ukraine is like a giant laboratory to see how combat will evolve in an age of AI and robotic technology. You can already see it's influence on American defense contracting.
we've spent the last few years, listening to their hit
If You Want BLOOD.. You GOT IT
GWB is demanding we go all WWIII.
’The war in Ukraine is like a giant laboratory to see how combat will evolve in an age of AI and robotic technology. You can already see its influence on American defense contracting.’
There has been a noticeable shift in emphasis the last few years, Howard. Good points…
"The timing suggests to me that Trump leaked it on purpose to get everyone comfortable with it."
Sounds like something Trump might do. The reality is that the war won't stop until Putin stops it. Putin will dictate the terms that will put an end to it.
It would insist that European security forces, backed by U.S. logistics, be stationed along the cease-fire line as a symbolic tripwire against any Russian re-invasion.
Mr. Friedman, sir, what is a "symbolic" tripwire, and how does it differ from a "real" tripwire?
What would an acceptable dirty deal look like? It would ...
Mr. Friedman, sir, when you say "acceptable," you aren't clear about to whom it would be acceptable. Apparently, it would be acceptable to you, but would it be acceptable to Ukraine? Would it be acceptable to Russia? Do you have any basis for thinking it would be acceptable to Russia? How useful is a "deal" that is acceptable to only one side, and possibly neither side?
In the alternative, Mr. Friedman, sir, you seem to be saying that you oppose accepting any deal less acceptable than your hypothetical "dirty deal"? If so, please say so forthrightly and please tell us how many more Ukrainians and Russians will die in your plan and how long your plan will extend the war. Your position might be justifiable, maybe the additional dead are worth it, but I think you need to show your work here.
Howard said...
Achilles: If Russia could take all of Ukraine "right now if it wants to", why haven't they done so? They certainly tried back in 2022 and failed. Instead of overtaking all of Ukraine, Russia has become bogged down in a meat grinder stalemate. Early on in the war, Peter Zeihan predicted this current outcome and estimated that Putin could keep this up for 10 years.
You have tripped over the truth.
Russia doesn't want Ukraine. Putin sees no value in holding it, at least the Western portions of it. It would be an occupied space and it would be a drain on Russian resources to occupy it and hold it. The retard Neocons here spewing garbage about Putin wanting to rebuild the Soviet empire are liars or stupid.
Russia wants a buffer against NATO expansion and he wants access to the Black Sea as well as a land corridor with friendly regimes to the south.
Putin is a surprisingly intelligent person and he knows Russia's demographic place. Zeihan reads demographics too. Putin is getting to that age where he is thinking of legacy and kids.
Putin has decided that if Ukraine will not agree to remain neutral his only option is to make sure that Ukraine will never be a threat at least for a generation or two. That means setting up a meat grinder and destroying a generation of Ukrainian men. That plus securing Black sea access meets his objectives. He doesn't want to annex a population that hates Russia.
If you look at some of the real military analysts out there they will tell you that the casualty rates for Ukraine are 2-5 times that of Russia. This is based on artillery rounds fired and drone munitions expended as well as troop rotation patterns and reserves. Everyone knows how long Russia trains their new recruits and how long Ukraine trains their recruits/conscripts. Russia is still attracting volunteers. Much of war can be reduced to math at this point.
Putin can keep this up forever. Ukraine cannot. This is Russia getting everything it wants now or in 5 years after more Ukrainian men are killed.
There is no negotiation here. Trump fucked up in my opinion. He should have told Europe and Ukraine to go fuck themselves when he took office. The only thing Trump could have done to change the current situation was to deploy the US armed forces to Ukraine and start world war 3.
Shouting Thomas raises the nuclear point that Friedman ignores. After a month off, you think Friedman could consider all factors, but he is still in a snit that Trump is settling the Gaza War. Friedman has been wrong so often he should retire.
It is now beyond obvious that Putin is blackmailing Trump. It is probably somehow tied in with the Epstein files and why Trump is desperate to keep them covered up.
Putin knows that Trump is quickly losing power, and it is now or never to squeeze him into doing his bidding.
Putin has completely sullied his legacy by sacrificing the future of Russia by murdering so many young men on both sides of the border and focusing their economic capacity onto the expenditure of disposable munitions that have done little to advance the sphere of influence into the gap.
Sure he can keep this up for a very long time at a very high cost. If Vladimir Putin was indeed highly intelligent he would figure out how to compromise with Trump and to have part of the deal be the economic revitalization of Russia by Western investment.
Maximalist demands are the stArt of the Deal.
Once written, twice... said...
It is now beyond obvious that Putin is blackmailing Trump. It is probably somehow tied in with the Epstein files and why Trump is desperate to keep them covered up.
Putin knows that Trump is quickly losing power, and it is now or never to squeeze him into doing his bidding.
Someone had to remind us just how incredibly stupid the average democrat voter is.
What's obvious is that trump has no idea what he's doing.
Achilles, if Trump quacks like a duck and walks like a duck…
Then Trump is a traitorous, yellow-bellied chicken.
If you think there is some other reason for Trump acting like Putin's shoeshine boy, please share.
Trump has been desperately trying to surrender in a war he's not even fighting.
It was only two days ago that War Secretary, Daniel Driscoll, was telling Ukraine and Europe there was no room for negotiation on details.
But now it turns out this is a Kremlin authored peace plan. So who's in charge of US foreign policy?
Very demoralizing and humiliating for all involved, the White House acting as a clerk and messenger for the Russian foreign ministry. My bet is Trump didn't bother to read or circulate it to anyone before throwing it at Zelensky and telling him to swallow it. That Europe snapped into line with just a few reservations is even more embarrassing. Witikoff is as dangerous liability as he was over Gaza. His job title should be Secretary for Stroking Trump's Ego.
Say, Ive got an idea: Let's compare this anonymously leaked version of a Peace Plan to the other Peace Plans that have come from NATO, the EU, and Ukraine. For each one, we could review the progress that each one represented. Short exercise, huh?
No they cant they dont even want to, it takes skill to misunderstand putin this badly but they are up to the challenge
The wests trojan horses sachs and summers brough chaos to the east under the label of democracy
And tom friedman has gotten things wrong for more than 40 years
"If you think there is some other reason for Trump acting like Putin's shoeshine boy, please share."
As per plot development of the 2nd season of the Trump Show. First, shock media with extreme announcement -- give Ukraine to the Russians, death penalty to Senators who counseled troops to disobey illegal orders. Second, walk it back and keep it alive on the front page as long as possible. Then onto the next episode. Current goal is to keep Epstein and the price of groceries off the front page.
It is hard to know whether to laugh or panic. The 28-point peace plan that Trump is hawking around as a basis for ending the war in Ukraine is so poorly put together, so vague, unbalanced and impractical that, in a more normal world, it would never have seen the light of day—and once leaked it would have been quietly dumped.
It would freeze the forces in place, but never formally cede any seized Ukrainian territory. It would insist that European security forces, backed by U.S. logistics, be stationed along the cease-fire line as a symbolic tripwire against any Russian re-invasion.
So, set up a North/South Korea situation? Seems like a terrible idea.
Google translate…
Why should we make a deal when Ukraine has not run out of young men yet?
Freidman seems to forget that Russia has to accept a deal, and there is no way Putin would accept his plan. Is this what they call an intellectual? How much do you need to get wrong in order to be considered an intellectual? I think he got there long ago.
"So, set up a North/South Korea situation? Seems like a terrible idea."
Putin will never figure out that the plan is to build up forces again and lo and behold, a provocation will be arranged that will kick off the war again.
Until Moscow bends the knee to Washington, WWII will not be over, it was a game of Risk, and in Risk, there is only one winner. Which is why the outcome of WWII was fundamentally unsatisfactory.
We won't even get into what the Brits were trying to do in the Crimean war, but ours is not to reason why, it's just to charge into the valley of death, as the saying came from that war. It's Friedman's to reason why.
“Out the gate -The liar liar left called it "Trump's plan".”
“The peace proposal was authored by the U.S. It is offered as a strong framework for ongoing negotiations,” Rubio claimed on Saturday. “It is based on input from the Russian side. But it is also based on previous and ongoing input from Ukraine.”
https://nypost.com/2025/11/23/world-news/ukraine-peace-plan-was-authored-by-us-rubio-says-after-leaked-russian-wishlist-claims/
Once written, twice... said...
"It is now beyond obvious that Putin is blackmailing Trump. "
And you know this...............how?
Please enlighten us. We aren't privy to the information you obviously have.
The reason so many of you think that this is a bad deal is because you believe the Ukrainian propaganda that Russia is suffering massive casualties for each meter of ground, and that Ukrainian supermen are outfighting an army with more firepower and superior numbers, but too bad for them, they are genetically deficient Russians.
The Russians say that they are capturing thousands of soldiers, many of whom had only been in uniform for a week, after getting knocked on the head by "recruiters" and thrown in a van.
Basically though, if you look at the motivations, the European leaders will be thrown out if the war ends. Macron is a big cheerleader for Ukrainians to keep dying, and he is more unpopular with the entire French nation than Trump is with Democrats. He is at 11%. Mertz would have been thrown out already if this war weren't going on. And Starmer views this war as his personal mission while Britain falls apart, and he is setting unpopularity records too. He needs the war to continue in order to stay in power. Let's not even talk about Zelensky, who will be thrown out the minute an election is held.
"Russia wants a buffer against NATO expansion and he wants access to the Black Sea as well as a land corridor with friendly regimes to the south."
Where this falls apart is that prior to the official invasion NATO wasn't mentioned. It only became an issue when everyone wanted to join NATO. NATO it is Putins convenient excuse.
Putin pines for the days of Soviet hegemony. He as admitted that the greatest tragedy to befall Russia was the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Here is my theory, based on following the war, and giving weight to the people whose reporting held up as time passed: Ukrainians are getting slaughtered daily, their military forces have all but collapsed, Zelensky is holding back the few competent forces he has left, basically the neonazi Maidan movement units, to protect his sorry skin.
I suppose it's possible that I am wrong, and that the people who made claims that failed the test of time, over and over again, are right this time, and the Russian army will collapse and Putin will be overthrown and Russia will bend the knee to NATO because the Russian people can't take a little privation.
"Where this falls apart is that prior to the official invasion NATO wasn't mentioned."
Wasn't mentioned in the news reports you listen to.
Has there ever been a negotiation between antagonists that began, “Gee, that’s a great solution. Wish I’d thought of that! I agree.”?
‘Rubio told senators that the Russians gave the plan to Trump’s Special Envoy Steve Witkoff, which the US then relayed to the Ukrainians in its role as an intermediary.’ ~ NewsMax
‘After the senators’ remarks were published, Rubio posted on X that: “The peace proposal was authored by the U.S.” ~ NY Post
So which is it?
Trump presented an English translation of a Russian surrender proposal. It won't fly either in Europe, in Congress or in Ukraine.
Trump is laughable in his shameless pursuit of Russian interests.
Stop calling it a "plan". It's surrender. Witkoff should change his title to Russian Ambassador to the White House. That would be more accurate.
Filthy deal. We're talking about a war killing thousands (actually at this point hundreds of thousands) of people and friedman is talking like a hysterial teenage girl.
His comments all contain assumptions that are untrue. Russia is not our enemy. It doesn't matter to the USA who controls the Donbass. And "Rewarding Aggression" is a meaningless cant phrase.
As for these Republican Senators. I cant tell you how much I hate these assholes. They are completely unconcerned about their own voters or making life better for Americans. But they really, really care about Ukraine. They aren't secretary of state. They aren't the POTUS. They don't run foreign policy. But they want to.
Well dropping the hint that nato membership was not smart
Given Musk’s recent exposure of the locations of so many “disrupters” that shows how much of the disinformation and chaos is sown by them, one would think the lefties would be taking a few weeks off to lick and dress their wounds, no?
Now the war plan that gerasimov came up with was beyond stupid he would have had been cashiered from frunze
Unless NATO is willing to put troops into Ukraine right now to fight, Ukraine is going to lose since it is running out of men to do the fighting long before Russia does. The mistake people keep making is thinking Russia needs anything at all from the rest of the world in order to fight this war- they don't. So, the choice isn't this peace plan, regardless of origin, or a better one. The choice is between Russia taking its objectives now or later.
I looked it up on Grok, this war has been a Demographic disaster for Ukraine. From 2022-2024, three years, total births in Ukraine = 600,000. Total Deaths 1.5 million. A reduction of 900,000 people in 3 years!
They're losing the war. They never had a chance to win it. Its been most moronic thing since the Confederacy bleed itself to death fighing for their slave Republic. Russia has almost all the Donbass and they're never giving it back. And with 10,000 nuclear warheads, nobody can force them.
Dem congresspersons ostentatiously publicly encouraging military personnel to disobey orders is part of "The Trump Show."
Did I get that right, Rich?
Ukraine continues its insistence that there not be tracking and audits of all the money/resources coming its way.
This is what’s known as a “tell”.
As long as the west indulges its net zero fantasy along with other insanities they will lose
"It is now beyond obvious that Putin is blackmailing Trump. "
Some people should take a break and count up how many times they have swallowed and repeated lines of bullshit about Trump. Even the more reasonable ones have done it a dozen times, and for some it's been a lot more. If you do that exercise and you still think you should post the next one, "Here's your sign".
The leadership seems to hate their own people merz seems to be showing a little bit of sense on some things
After 3 years of war and 3 years of Russia fighting NATO financed and armed Ukrainians, Putin would be an idiot to stop fighting short of his ultimate goals. Personally, I hope he goes all the way to the Dneiper River and then forces regime change in Kiev.
I don't want the USA on the hook for Ukraine. I don't want us sending them $50-100 billion every year to "rebuild their country" and arm them. Or having troops there to be a "trip wire". That's not America first. Its America last.
Of course, Miss Lindsey and the Southern boys all think differently. Why yeehaw, lets go nuclear war toe to toe with the Ruskiees!
The primary argument against putting Ukraine and Georgia on a path to membership is that it would anger Russia, whose relationship with the West has grown cold over Kosovo, the missile defense system, and arms control in Europe. - Center for American Progress 2008
I wonder what the ratio is of people wanting to fight this war for patriotic reasons versus those for monetary or political gain.
I know a lot of you people hate looking at anything that happened prior to last week, but when the Ukraine was granted its independence, there was a treaty, which both parties signed, that the Ukraine would remain neutral and non nuclear. Both of these agreements that Ukraine agreed to with its powerful neighbor, and which it had enshrined in its constitution, were thrown in the trash when in 2008, long prior to any military incursions by Russia, Ukraine started the process of joining NATO. NATO is an agressive military alliance, see Iraq, Syria, Libya, and BTW, how was the creation of Kosovo squared with the idea that borders are sacred?
Interesting that Rubio is both insisting and denying the US wrote the proposal.
Schrödingers politician -- simultaneously in control and out of control.
It is completely bizarre that the Trump administration has morphed into the role of Russian negotiator. To present a Russian peace plan and pretend it is theirs is quite extraordinary.
Why is Trump so desperate to please Putin.
The Europeans won't accept this, and the majority of those in Congress won't accept it either. It is almost beyond belief that Trump has taken the side of a blatant aggressor.
Friedman squints through his jewelers loupe and perceives a fine gradient between “Dirty” and “Filthy”. What he perceives is the horrible possibility that peace could occur before the midterm elections. A thousand Ukrainian lives is just the price of a Democrat win.
Rusty said...
"Russia wants a buffer against NATO expansion and he wants access to the Black Sea as well as a land corridor with friendly regimes to the south."
Where this falls apart is that prior to the official invasion NATO wasn't mentioned. It only became an issue when everyone wanted to join NATO. NATO it is Putins convenient excuse.
Putin pines for the days of Soviet hegemony. He as admitted that the greatest tragedy to befall Russia was the collapse of the Soviet Union.
If you listen to Fox News or anything in the US media or US think tanks in DC this is what you will get.
You need to realize that the most propagandized people in the world are US citizens.
I look at what countries actually do and compare that to what their leaders actually say.
Almost all political commentary sourced from inside the US with respect to foreign policy is funded by someone who wants the US to fight more wars. Of course they are going to say Russia wants to take over the world.
Putin doesn't want to be killed by his own people and he is more scared of China than he is desirous of Europe. If Europe wasn't trying to get the US to expand their empire for them Russia would be our ally against China.
Imagine if Quebec broke off from Canada and entered a military "defensive alliance" with a country on the other side of the ocean, say China, and China started building bases, fortifications, and send it arms? Would the US just say, "Well, it's none of our business"?
Putin remains popular as does this war, more or less, with the Russian people. But, he cannot be seen by the Russian people or the elites as ending this war on terms that don’t achieve the basic goals he articulated when Russia invaded. If he does he will erode his authority and risk losing power. So, this war will continue until Putin gets a deal that meets these goals. That is going to include the cessation of a substantial part of eastern Ukraine. It will not include any NATO forces as a trip wire or even the prospect that Ukraine ever be admitted to NATO. They will never agree to any reparations. Unless some outside force appears that substantially changes the present landscape, this war continues until Putin gets much of what he wants regardless of Friedman’s and his ilk’s outrage at the “moral bankruptcy” of this outcome.
Because we mirror our thinking to other parties (ie the leadership doesnt cinsider incursions on our soil as problematic)
I am not going to go through it and dig out its key points, but here is Putins address to the NATO summit (you read that right) in 2008 where he pleads for cooperation with NATO on problems facing the world, and warns that bringing Ukraine into NATO could lead to the end of the Ukrainian state.
https://www.unian.info/world/111033-text-of-putin-s-speech-at-nato-summit-bucharest-april-2-2008.html
BTW, Germany has been in a depression since their inexpensive energy from Russia was cut off. You can't make chemical feedstocks from nuclear, BTW. The countries in Europe who claim that they are not in recession are probably lying.
Europe's leaders who are all in on this war are hated, and hated is not too strong a term, imagine how Inga feels about Trump, and that's how 90%, not an exaggeration, feel about Macron.
Has friedman ever gotten anything right
Any peace proposal is a set of compromises and provisions, none of which are patented, new, or obscure, so it makes no sense to call it anyone's plan. Everybody knows the inventory of options, and they are included or discarded as needed. There is this set or that set, and it's always just a starting point. In the end, who brought it is just a label to get the sides to the table.
Did the ukrainians really think they were going to recover the donbass, at least the industrial sections
ok; a tired, but serious Question:
WHY is there STILL a NATO?
didn't it win? didn't it Destroy the Soviet Union? wasn't That its point?
How Many More aggressions will NATO commit before it's over?
WHY isn't it over NOW?
Macron is also a pedo Hitler with micropenis?
That costume is overdone this season.
Whether we like it or not, most of the cards are Putin’s. He doesn’t read the Europeans and he knows we will never risk WW3 by putting boots on the ground. His only concern is how long will the Americans continue to provide money and arms before we get tired of funding a corrupt government in Kiev. He cannot wait us out and he knows it. Trump knows it too. Only by imposing much more crippling sanctions (enforced against China and India for their ongoing violation of the sanction regime) a concomitant increase in missles and other sophisticated arms, can change Putin’s calculus. This isn’t going to happen. Unfortunately there are no options available where this war ends favorably to Ukraine or American neo-cons.
Supposed to be “he doesn’t fear the Europeans”
Include both Ukraine and Russia in NATO membership. Problem solved.
gilbar said...
ok; a tired, but serious Question:
WHY is there STILL a NATO?
didn't it win? didn't it Destroy the Soviet Union? wasn't That its point?
How Many More aggressions will NATO commit before it's over?
WHY isn't it over NOW?
Because if we left NATO Europe would be killing each other and invading other countries again.
If you honestly look at the leaders of Europe right now they are all globalist scum of the earth. Europe is the capital of the open borders global war free trade fuck the working class movement.
The only thing different about Europe than the 500 years before WWII is that the US is occupying it.
I am not saying it is a good reason. But it is the reason. Even when Europe doesn't have their own army they spend all of their time trying to get us to fight for them. All of the decent people in Europe fled to other countries.
bagoh20 said...
Include both Ukraine and Russia in NATO membership. Problem solved.
Russia wanted to be in NATO when the Soviet Union fell.
Then democratically elected leaders like Yeltsin, after being rejected NATO membership, were taken advantage of by European powers.
Russia was an economic basket case for at least a decade while Europe and the west abused them and took advantage of them.
People think Putin wrestled power from pro-european leaders and killed all of his political opponents and Russians want to be like Europe. Russians don't like Europe just like the people of Europe don't like their leaders right now.
You all need to actually look at Europe and look at how Europe has acted for the last 600 years. Europe has been the common denominator for most of the world's problems for a long time.
“Neville Chamberlain?” I’ve seen this several times. How ignorant are these people at the NYT and elsewhere? Trump is not negotiating on behalf of the US. The Democrats and their pet mediaswine have no idea what the people of Ukraine want. Zelensky can say no. Meanwhile, Trump can stop the flow of money into the sewer of this war.
ANYONE taking anything from the nyt seriously is a fool.
Dems and their trolls argue for: more war, more crime, more abortions, more male bullies in female sports, more mutilations of children, more illegals on US soil, fewer tariffs, fewer guns, fewer Jews, etc. They argue against: God, normies and Trump, et al. It all makes perfect sense if you oppose making America great again.
We started this crap with our aggressive expansion of nato, period. At this point Russia see this as the last hill to die on. And for good reason, we won’t stop.
No one is more impressed by Thomas Friedman than Thomas Friedman… the man who promoted US surrender to the ChiComs.
"Macron is also a pedo Hitler with micropenis"
Emmanuel or Brigitte?
Tom Friedman still has a column? He's the 1990s calling to sell us a used foreign policy.
A French General just made a speech saying the children of Europe must be sent to their deaths to fight Russia. I think he did it as a way to explain that Europe will never fight Russia.
Trump is not interested in genuine, lasting diplomacy that requires negotiating details and building a plan with the best chance of long-term success. Instead, he prefers quick “deals” lacking substance or specifics, allowing him to declare a “win” and make the outcome all about himself through short-term theatrics.
I just heard a podcast this morning where several commentators opined that Russia could keep.this up for ten years. This sounds horrible.
I don't have a solution, other than exhaustion of all concerned.
Taibbi properly dubbed his flathead
The Ukraine-Russia conflict is really interesting in a number of ways. One is - Russia is winning, somewhat, in gaining control on the ground in Ukraine. Foot by foot, inch by inch. Remember- all right thinking people thought it would be a 3 day operation.
Second- Russia is losing in Russia. Russia has basically one rail line running the length of the country. Mostly electrified. 2nd to China in electrified rail. Less then one percent of US mainline is electrified. Electrified rail is far more efficient. Less then 1% of US mainline rail is electrified... Why? The reason seems to be- property tax. All that catenary is real property and taxed accordingly. Tear it down- it reduces taxable value... Turns out in war, electrified rail is not an asset, it's a liability. Ukraine has been knocking out transformers needed to run the rails. It's been devastating to the Russian economy. And Russia doesn't have the diesel locomotive capacity to make up for the inoperable electric locomotives.
And Russia's fuel supply production and distribution system is full of bottlenecks. Which Ukraine has been attacking.
The Russian economy is close to collapse. How close? Don't know.
So there's currently a race going on. Does the Russian economy collapse before they militarily defeat Ukraine? Also- does the persistent Ukraine corruption collapse the Ukraine government before the Russian economy collapses?
I've said from the beginning- neither side is the good guy. The Ukrainians are the lesser bad guy.
Trump has been working for a peace that will maintain the status quo. TBH- the status quo is the safest for world affairs. Ukraine is not getting it's territory back. Losing a war has consequences.
Kakistocracy said...
Trump is not interested in genuine, lasting diplomacy that requires negotiating details and building a plan with the best chance of long-term success. Instead, he prefers quick “deals” lacking substance or specifics, allowing him to declare a “win” and make the outcome all about himself through short-term theatrics.
If you weren't so stupid you would realize you weren't describing Trump in your post.
You were describing yourself and how you post here perfectly.
This was a terrible exercise that so far resolved to a proxy fight costing probably 1-2 million lives if the west were to become directly involvec the casualties would escalate on one side of the balance sheet
There was a recent strike against polish railways using ukrainian intermediaries
The US is degrading a strategic adversary's military capacity at roughly 5% of the Pentagon's annual budget, with zero American casualties. Russia has lost an estimated 400,000+ casualties, burned through decades of Soviet stockpiles, had to resort to Iranian drones and North Korean ammunition, faces severe labor shortages, and has seen its economy reorient toward unsustainable wartime production. Meanwhile, US defense contractors are getting paid to modernize American stockpiles while disposing of obsolescent inventory.
This leads us to think that perhaps the Trump administration desires to pivot it's focus to the Indo-Pacific, but then again, there is currently a carrier group in the Caribbean trying to pressure Maduro when it could instead be in the South China Sea.
You would think that a 42% YoY increase in military spending would placate the Republicans and their revisionist history of "Europe is Freeloading" (when in reality the US built NATO and the European military infrastructure because it served American interests in the Cold War and elsewhere).
Pulling the rug out from under Zelenskyy becomes even more ridiculous when you realize that the Pentagon routinely makes bigger accounting errors than the remaining $50bn of aid committed to Ukraine.
The only logical conclusion is that Trump want's credit for ending the war, and is doing this entirely for domestic political reasons than any sort of geopolitical strategy.
"You were describing yourself and how you post here perfectly."
Oh, he knows that perfectly well. Orwell described this kind of propaganda. Goebbels used it too. They know the truth is out there, so they have to pin the stink to the other guy. It's a classic move, and even kids see through it: "who smelt it, dealt it"
"all right thinking people thought it would be a 3 day operation."
Nobody in Russia ever said that. That was a US general who made that assessment. Ukraine had the largest army in Europe and a huge stockpile of Soviet era weapons.
What I think is funny is who put in the part about not investigating what happened to the hundreds of billions? Was that the US? Did Joe Biden have input? Did the Russians care about military aid being stolen? No, that was a favor to them. No, the Ukrainians put that in. If you figure that they stole 20% of the $300 billion that we know about, that's a lot of money to make a lot of people very wealthy, even figuring that Joe Biden got his customary 10%.
If the war ends, the gravy train stops.
After Afghanistan and Chechnya you would think Russia would have dispensed with magical thinking we have that problem as well just because a capital falls or a leader is taken out we think thats the end of the story see kabul or baghdad
Kak: "Russia has ...burned through decades of Soviet stockpiles, ....perhaps the Trump administration desires to pivot it's focus to the Indo-Pacific"
Oh? And when the last Russian round was fired, and the ChiComs turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper? CC, JSM
I’d be laughing if Trump’s abject desire to betray Ukraine and curry favor with Putin wasn’t so awful for the U.S.
I’d be laughing if Chuck Schumer and the MSM’s abject desire for WW III and to curry favor with Zelensky wasn’t so awful for the U.S.
"The US is degrading a strategic adversary's military capacity at roughly 5% of the Pentagon's annual budget, with zero American casualties."
Russia is not our adversary. And even if they were, anyone who thinks killing thousands of Ukrainians/Russians is OK because we're "degrading their military capacity" is an immoral piece of shit. Y'know like Lindsey Graham or Bill Kristol.
It is now beyond obvious that Putin is blackmailing Trump. It is probably somehow tied in with the Epstein files and why Trump is desperate to keep them covered up.
In a field of heavy competition, this is my nomination for the stupidest post of the year.
Good grief get better material
3 days is exactly what the Russians were expecting. Why this occurred: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antonov_Airport
A Russian Special Forces attack on Kiev airport, establishing a beachhead from where they could roll victoriously into Kiev.
They didn't expect it to fail, nor did many Western observers. It's failure led to what we see today.
Wikipedia is maintained by ax-grinders. It is not trustworthy in controversial areas.
Time lays waste to propaganda narratives, at least for those who pay attention. Time will tell.
At this point in time, it may be a better outcome all around if the Russians just refuse to negotiate at all and just win Ukraine on the battlefield as an object lesson for all involved.
And, if I am wrong about the outcome, then a good object lesson would be Russia's defeat by Ukraine. All I know is this- NATO will not and should not put troops on the ground or in the air in Ukraine.+
Rubio's explanation of the nature of and origin of the 28-point plan that the US presented to Ukraine is a strong indicator of the lack of competence of those representing our nation in these efforts.Russia does these things. This is well known. Smart negotiators know not to let them happen.
Find who leaked it and to one of two things: A) Fire them outright, or, B) Send them to the State Department's version of Siberia: Some third world s***hole without the blessing of at least having great weather and/or an interesting cuisine.
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