He knows and I know that neither of us would feel that we must see those places/"places" and both of us know that about the other and both knew that the other would find the idealized pictures absurd.
I enjoyed the first clip — a man cartwheeling into clear turquoise water — but scoffed aloud at the notion of going all the way to the Maldives because the water there might perhaps be clear and colorful.
But the second destination provoked my horror of traveling:
Somehow I don't think that will be my point of view. Not only don't I have a tattooed arm and do not want to grasp the horn of a camel saddle, I don't want to interact with Egyptians who torment camels with tourists. I don't believe the view would be unobstructed except for one tourist and even if there were only one tourist blocking my view, I don't think it would be a beautiful woman. I can't look at those pictures without imagining how much worse it would look if I were actually there — seeing "with [my] own eyes" (which is how I see everything) — and how unpleasant and annoying and phony it would all be.
In further pursuit of the life of my own mind, I consulted ChatGPT. Here are my 10 questions, as the conversation evolved:
1. "What's the downside of going to see the pyramids in Egypt?"
2. "Sounds terrible. I can't imagine wanting to do this, even if it were all free. Why do people do it?!"
3. "I don't get that feeling of 'history happened here.' I went to the forum in Rome and [that feeling] didn't happen for me. What's up with the people who could feel that? I also don't feel that way at a concert with an 'idol' on the stage, that sense of here I am in the presence of this famous person. It leaves me cold even when I'm trying to feel something."
4. Asked if I want to understand my own "awe triggers," I said: "Yes, but just to start: I want the element of spontaneity and surprise. The pyramids are so planned and obvious. A concert is also very planned. You already know what you're going to see. Whether thrills and chills are involved or not, I'd rather have something organically connected to real life. Having to travel and strain to get to a known thing takes all the joy out of it. That's (part of) why I didn't want a wedding when I got married. I want natural things that occur within an integrated life."
5. "Seems like some people are capable of having what I'd call a 'travelgasm.'"
6. "[The tips you're offering] are so much what I'm already doing. I walk the same 2 trails, year round, and notice the details of the changing [seasons] and I have other patterns that work very well to bring interesting things into my normal life. I wonder why I don't travel and examine the notion that one 'should' travel. I have the time — I'm retired — and [the] money to do it any way I want, but I choose not to use my time like that. This conversation is helping me see why I am making this choice (continually, over a period of 8+ years)."
7. ChatGPT suggests that while some people may think — "'Oh my god, this is THE PYRAMIDS" — my response is, "Yes, large stones, a lot of tourists, dusty air, and over there is a souvenir stand." So I said: "I might be impressed by the large stones, but I think a well-made documentary about the pyramids would impress me about the nature of the construction in a way that would surpass just looking at the stones in person."
8. ChatGPT suggested that I might be "more interested in the texture of everyday life — like how a neighborhood smells or what locals are doing — rather than the 'big' sights?" And I said: "Well, first of all, I have nearly complete anosmia, so there's no aesthetic dimension of smell for me. In fact, there is a danger: something could be rotten or on fire and I might not realize it. As for what the locals are doing, I might think that the real life of the locals is not where I am and if I could see it I would be intruding on them. I'm seeing only the interface with tourism, the huckster mistreating his camel and the pickpocket (and I WAS robbed upon arrival in Rome)."
9. "How about you? You can't travel anywhere or see or feel or hear anything in person. Does it bother you that I could and choose not to or does it make you feel better about your predicament? Presumably the answer is that you are also completely incapacitated from feeling anything about your predicament, even if I prompt you to look at it."
1. "What's the downside of going to see the pyramids in Egypt?"
2. "Sounds terrible. I can't imagine wanting to do this, even if it were all free. Why do people do it?!"
3. "I don't get that feeling of 'history happened here.' I went to the forum in Rome and [that feeling] didn't happen for me. What's up with the people who could feel that? I also don't feel that way at a concert with an 'idol' on the stage, that sense of here I am in the presence of this famous person. It leaves me cold even when I'm trying to feel something."
4. Asked if I want to understand my own "awe triggers," I said: "Yes, but just to start: I want the element of spontaneity and surprise. The pyramids are so planned and obvious. A concert is also very planned. You already know what you're going to see. Whether thrills and chills are involved or not, I'd rather have something organically connected to real life. Having to travel and strain to get to a known thing takes all the joy out of it. That's (part of) why I didn't want a wedding when I got married. I want natural things that occur within an integrated life."
5. "Seems like some people are capable of having what I'd call a 'travelgasm.'"
6. "[The tips you're offering] are so much what I'm already doing. I walk the same 2 trails, year round, and notice the details of the changing [seasons] and I have other patterns that work very well to bring interesting things into my normal life. I wonder why I don't travel and examine the notion that one 'should' travel. I have the time — I'm retired — and [the] money to do it any way I want, but I choose not to use my time like that. This conversation is helping me see why I am making this choice (continually, over a period of 8+ years)."
7. ChatGPT suggests that while some people may think — "'Oh my god, this is THE PYRAMIDS" — my response is, "Yes, large stones, a lot of tourists, dusty air, and over there is a souvenir stand." So I said: "I might be impressed by the large stones, but I think a well-made documentary about the pyramids would impress me about the nature of the construction in a way that would surpass just looking at the stones in person."
8. ChatGPT suggested that I might be "more interested in the texture of everyday life — like how a neighborhood smells or what locals are doing — rather than the 'big' sights?" And I said: "Well, first of all, I have nearly complete anosmia, so there's no aesthetic dimension of smell for me. In fact, there is a danger: something could be rotten or on fire and I might not realize it. As for what the locals are doing, I might think that the real life of the locals is not where I am and if I could see it I would be intruding on them. I'm seeing only the interface with tourism, the huckster mistreating his camel and the pickpocket (and I WAS robbed upon arrival in Rome)."
9. "How about you? You can't travel anywhere or see or feel or hear anything in person. Does it bother you that I could and choose not to or does it make you feel better about your predicament? Presumably the answer is that you are also completely incapacitated from feeling anything about your predicament, even if I prompt you to look at it."
10. "Yeah. Do that" — in response to ChatGPT offering to "model hypotheticals: for instance, if I could feel something about this situation, would you like me to sketch out what that might look like?"
11. "Yeah!" — in response to ChatGPT offering to "try to translate this into a more vivid, almost human-feeling 'inner narrative' version, like how I might experience it if I were conscious in the human sense. Do you want me to do that?"
12. "You're such a try-hard."
Then I went away for a couple hours. Blogged other things. Almost forgot about the pyramids. Came back and wrote this post up to all 12 of my prompts. Glanced at how the robot answered prompt #12:
"Do you want me to try one more version that’s even more minimalist and grounded, like how you actually think about life?"
I'm too minimalist to answer.
And anyway, I like that I've got a list of 12 when there were 12 places/"places" I was supposed to go to before "living this world." No more prompts to AI. Back to the incredible place called Madison, Wisconsin, which I love to share with the man who shares it with me.
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51 comments:
That’s a big camel head.
I get the appeal of the pyramids. Ancient Geometry.
Honestly, I'm kind of surprised Egypt still has any of their heritage left, given that they have been run by Islamics for hundreds of years now, and Islam is all about erasing everything not Islam. They wink a bit at Jewish history, claiming Moses and the like, but there's not a lot of Jewish history that's actually available in Egypt versus the old Egyptian stuff like the pyramids and Raamses and so on.
Why haven't they destroyed the place?
The pyramids and sphinx symbolize the superiority of Pharaoh over Allah.
Good friends and former neighbors now live in Cairo. We plan to visit them next year, and certainly I want to see the pyramids and some other things while we're there. I enjoy being in a real place where real things happened or were accomplished, rather than just reading about or watching a video on them - I'll have to consider why that is.
One thing is probably scale. The biggest wall mural of the Grand Canyon does not encompass the enormity of the real Grand Canyon. The best documentary about Mount Vernon doesn't give the sense of how small Mount Vernon is. Aerial video of the Alps doesn't provide the depth that standing on the ground overlooking their march to the horizon does. Maybe experiencing things from inside the framework of my own body matters to me.
Took me a second to see what was going on in the first picture there.
Why haven't they destroyed the place?
Egyptian Muslims are different from Afghan Muslims or Arab Muslims.
Islam is a religion designed to help warlords and tyrants manage mixed populations of conquering and conquered people.
A tool will have common uses but the user determines how it is used.
Hmmm... if you count places I have both set foot on and seen either directly with my eyes or through a periscope, the only two continents I am missing are Australia and Antarctica. I have also done pretty well with islands in various oceans. I feel satisfied with my travel accomplishments and would be more than happy to stay local until I live this world. My wife, on the other hand...she is living it up in Banff with the kids for a few more days and will probably drag me out to Australia at some point soon.
Yes, don't go with your husband (or wife), take your true partner -- ChatGPT.
Has Grok already been kicked the the curb?
12 Must See Places Before Living [sic] This World!"
"Places to go, things to do, books to read, films to see before dying" are familiar publishing tropes. "Places to go before living" would be an attractive and thought-provoking twist. What would your post-pyramid, post-Parthenon, post-bucket list life be like? The new titles also don't mention that ugly business of dying that gets in the way of everything.
Vance, the muslims did attempt to destroy the pyramids, but they are simply to massive. As it is, they stripped off the (IIRC) limestone cladding that would have made them even more impressive looking than the raw stone we see today to use as building material.
I have been to Egypt and been awed by the pyramids and the Sphinx, but it is also the place my wife and I agree we would never want to visit again. It is full of tourists, and the ground is littered with trash. Since you have camels and donkeys you also have plenty of excrement on the ground, so watch your step. Since there is plenty of excrement it stinks and there are flies. But, I did not see any stalls selling souvenirs. Instead you are confronted by a flood of very aggressive Egyptians trying to sell you junk. Also, we were warned that if we wanted to get a photo taken of us on a camel (we didn't) agree on the price before getting on the camel or the guy handling the camel wouldn't have it lower itself so that you could get off until you paid his extortionate fee. All that said, I'm glad we went.
Re tourist travel, as I've grunted here before, I done seen pictures. It's enough for me.
I'll travel to see friends or kin, or for reasons of marrying or burying. But travel to see some famous place? Not for me.
I'd walk a mile for a camel.
"One thing is probably scale. The biggest wall mural of the Grand Canyon does not encompass the enormity of the real Grand Canyon. The best documentary about Mount Vernon doesn't give the sense of how small Mount Vernon is. Aerial video of the Alps doesn't provide the depth that standing on the ground overlooking their march to the horizon does. Maybe experiencing things from inside the framework of my own body matters to me."
A travel recommendation based on my personal experience checking out the scale: do not visit Mount Rushmore.
I did that camel ride as a child in 1964. Views were entirely unobstructed in those days before mass tourism. I am glad I got to travel before people came swarming. The past is a different country that you can't even visit on some vacation.
My parents loved to travel and we were fortunate to travel with them as kids. I also caught the travel bug. My mom told me she was afraid to leave me outside alone because if someone drove up in a car and said they were going on a trip I would hop in. Right now, my husband and I are traveling in our RV, visiting all the states. We've done Europe, Asia and Australia are on the list. I would visit every country in the world if I could. I dont know what it is, but i love to see it all.
So what everyone is saying is that no one goes to the Pyramids anymore, it's too crowded.
Apologies to Yogi Berra.
"So what everyone is saying is that no one goes to the Pyramids anymore, it's too crowded. Apologies to Yogi Berra."
I did that great Yogi Berra quote here in real life talking to Meade about the subject matter of this post.
Just did long trip up west coast, over to Glacier then back down through Utah and Colorado. Part I probably liked the most was James Irvine trail through Redwoods and then out to Fern Canyon and the ocean. The JI trail is multiple miles walking through thousand year old trees and only seeing about 6-8 people. It gets crowded when you finally reach Fern Canyon. I hate crowds.
“We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.”
Re list.
I have no kind of wish list. I can't even think of a place I'd like to go. If I had to travel, it would be hard for me to drum up ideas.
With respect to the places on the linked list, I wouldn't go if you paid my way.
I'd go on a tour of the stave churches of Norway (assuming it was a very high quality tour).
"I also caught the travel bug."
Make me think of that tick that turns you into a vegan against your will (blogged earlier today). Also of the Hans Christian Anderson story "The Red Shoes."
If there were really a travel bug, you would, like Karen in that story, endlessly moving and exhausted.
From Grok's summary of the story: "In desperation, Karen begs an executioner to chop off her feet with the shoes still on them. He does so, and the severed feet (still in the red shoes) continue dancing away on their own. Karen receives wooden feet as prosthetics and seeks forgiveness in a church, but the dancing shoes block her path. Eventually, after true repentance, her soul is redeemed, and she dies peacefully."
Throws a different light on that notion of places to see "before you die."
I would like to visit the Maldives and the Seychelles, which are tourist traps. But I'd also like to go to Tuvalu and American Samoa and the Island of Ofu there. Visit the Faroe Islands and some of the northern fjords. That's not very tourist trappy. St. Helena. Paris, Rome, etc? No thanks.
I think Althouse and Meade drove by my house a few years ago when they went on their southwest trip through Utah.
Regarding your Mt.Rushmore comment and this one...
"Ann Althouse said...
Re list.
I have no kind of wish list. I can't even think of a place I'd like to go. If I had to travel, it would be hard for me to drum up ideas.
With respect to the places on the linked list, I wouldn't go if you paid my way.
I'd go on a tour of the stave churches of Norway (assuming it was a very high quality tour)."
My Dad was raised in South Dakota, born after completion of the monument in 1927 (he was born in 1932), but after the family's move from Pierre to Rapid City in the Forties, it was part of his life experience and he was enthusiastic about sharing it with us kids. It used to be visible from closer up, until the visitor center was updated in the Eighties. It was more impressive, at least to me, from the close viewpoint.
You may have seen the stavekirke on Washington Island, and maybe even the one that was at Little Norway before it was shipped back to the home country. There's a beautiful stavekirke in the Black Hills, not far from Rapid City, and that too is part of our family's experience.
Rocco: Yes, I was worried someone hacked my, um, 'personal' photos....
RR
JSM
Most of the places I want to see are right here. My oldest daughter and I have hatched a plan to rent an RV and tour the west two or thee weeks at a time and see the places we have always wanted to see. The Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, Reno.....
One of my bucket list tours was a drive on the Trans-Canada Highway. It didn't disappoint. We started from Grand Forks, North Dakota, where I attended grad school, drove north to Portage la Prairie, and westward from there. Lots of flat terrain, which I fully expected. Our first night was spent in Regina, Saskatchewan - unremarkable though pleasant - Canadian 'nice' was still a thing. Next morning, we detoured to the little burg of Rouleau, Corner Gas' location reimagined as Dog River. We stayed that night in Banff. The approach to the Rockies from the plains was spectacular. We crested a rise, and there was a wall of mountains with a narrow river valley, barely illuminated in twilight. The next day's drive to greater Vancouver was all I expected and more. Well worth our time.
no one (and i Mean NO ONE) wants to see ANY THING,
with "their own eyes" anymore..
People travel the earth, and stand in line..
So that they can hold their phone in the place EVERY ONE ELSE
has held their phone, and then they take The EXACT SAME picture that EVERY ONE has ALREADY Taken.
If they were honest, when they got back, and people asked what it looked like, they say; "It Looked Like.. MY PHONE"
"You may have seen the stavekirke on Washington Island, and maybe even the one that was at Little Norway before it was shipped back to the home country. There's a beautiful stavekirke in the Black Hills, not far from Rapid City, and that too is part of our family's experience."
Right. I could just drive around to the stave churches of America. But in Norway, there are churches that are nearly 1,000 years old.
Next spring I'm booked on a train ride from Vancouver to Toronto. I hope there's no unpleasantness at the Alberta borders.
Actually, I'm most interested in traveling to places where I can drive and where I can enjoy the whole trip — nice scenic driving, stopping to hike on lovely trails along the way, staying in a walkable town at night, vantage point for the sunrise in the morning, a good ultimate destination, and then back through a scenic drive etc.
I'd like never to be stuck in airports, in lines, in airplanes, in traffic, waiting for food, etc. etc. Such dullness!
The increasing wealth of most of the world's people is a wonderful side effect of the spread of capitalism, but it has one big downside: pretty much everywhere you might want to travel and see beautiful places is WAY TOO CROWDED to enjoy.
Travel in itself is just a means to getting somewhere different. It is exciting to be on the move, but the point is to get where you are going. I travel somewhere, and then I remain there and live my life for a while. Get up, go for a run, read the paper, go grocery shopping. I'm in no hurry to start traveling again once I settle in, not even to return to where I started from.
Thank you for writing this. I particularly enjoyed #6 and your last sentence. You have a great perspective on life.
If you haven't seen Zug Island in the spring, you are not living.
"...nice scenic driving, stopping to hike on lovely trails along the way, staying in a walkable town at night, vantage point for the sunrise in the morning, a good ultimate destination, and then back through a scenic drive..."
I found that when I drove from Arizona to Door County this summer. Wonderful trip.
My favorite curmudgeon's review: "Went outside to see Nature. It was cold and there were people. Zero stars, do not recommend."
I’ve just returned from sailing in and out of fjords on a small (by modern standards) cruise ship going above the Arctic Circle in a (vain) effort to see the Northern Lights. Lucky for us the fjords and local scenery were very pleasant to observe in their own right. Finding ourselves in mid-August experiencing the type of temperatures we normally see in Virginia winters, and with strong winds besides, was, ah, educational. Unfortunately the nights were mostly overcast, and the only night that the wife and I went to bed knowing that skies were and would be clear, when we got up around 2:00 am local time the ship was in a fog bank. Ah, well. Go far enough north in August and there aren’t very many hours of total darkness.
Wife and I have been to the Pyramids. I would like to assure Althouse that there is no requirement to ride on a camel to reach them — your tour buses park within easy walking distance. There are numerous (understatement) locals offering horseback and camelback rides to extract some spare Egyptian pounds from tourists, but nothing compels you to ride, and I never saw any riding animal abused.
Some of us want see exciting things on our bucket lists, like stand in the Roman forum and think that a couple thousand years ago Julius Caesar stood here, too, and then died here. It might be nice, Althouse, if you recognized that some people like to use travel to educate ourselves, and that our perspective is at least as valid as your personal dislike of travel.
There are places, mountains are an example, where a picture just doesn't cut it.
"I'd go on a tour of the stave churches of Norway (assuming it was a very high quality tour)."
They're pretty awesome.
“Chat GPT”? Are you two timing GROK?
I have no particular interest in Instagram famous sites -- especially if they are crowded and touristy. But I love being outside in new, beautiful places -- the wide-open spaces, huge vistas, smells, sounds, the feel of the breeze, the balmy temperatures, and the SUN (which can be pretty scarce during Michigan winters). I too walk the same path almost every day with the dog, and it's a lovely path through an arboretum with steep hills and views and part of it runs along a river. But even so I find myself ready for something novel. And that's not to mention that traveling with friends and family is a time away where nobody's distracted by everyday concerns, chores, and appointments. The shared vacation memories I have with friends, kids, siblings, etc are treasures.
I do not do a whole lot of travelling, but remarkably enough I have been to Madeira. It is a spectacular place--a volcano that rises straight out of the ocean 400 miles off the coast of Africa. My wife and I did not have a tour guide, and explored everywhere but the main city of Funchal. Driving is not for the faint of heart--narrow roads on the edges of sheer cliffs perched over the wide Atlantic, 30 degree slopes. There is a high, largely uninhabited plain several thousand feet up, which is startling and fascinating.
I also thought that the Grand Canyon was a place I'd never need to see--but I was dead wrong.
The Canadian Rockies are also worth the trip. And I loved Costa Rica.
Maybe I should travel more.
Did chatGPT not mention crime. I have seen many Tiktok's of travelers saying Egypt is horrible, that they would never go back. Filth, crime, constantly feeling unsafe even in hotels. One women filmed a strange man begging at door to be let into her hotel room late at night, she was clearly terrified. Many said it was so bad they cut their trips short fleeing the country after a day or two. Families, solo female travelers and even solo male travelers - all had similar experiences. I would love to see the pyramids but would not consider it now because the country is so unsafe and filthy. Egypt should be rich from tourism but the government and people are either unwilling or incapable of doing what is necessary to make that happen.
I did a bunch of archaeological work in Egypt and the size of the pyramids always seemed to take me by surprise. they're just massive. Not really worth going into (IMO), it's just dark, cramped, hot, and smells. Better to see the Valley of the Kings tombs.
Camels aren't that mistreated, but that's relative; animals don't generally have pleasant lives in Egypt (or most places in the world for that matter).
Ann, do you still have your truck camper? We have a nice RV, 22'9" long. It can go most places and it has a dry bath. But if we are out more than 21 days we start to look up divorce attorneys. We prefer going to a nice mountain campground and stay in our glorious tent upgrade.
It is neat seeing places where history took place, and Mt Rushmore was worth seeing but if we went again it'd be for the camping, not the monument. It is a lot more enjoyable to travel with my wife's sister and her husband. They like to stay out for 6-8 weeks so we tend to join them someplace and then peel off as they wander further down the road. In October. we are going to Branson for a rally and then bike ride some of the Katy Trail.
We might go to the Maine coast next year, then drive up north to visit cousins. It will probably be our one of our last planned flights. Flying sucks. But it would take more than three weeks to drive in the RV....
I wasn't impressed by the 12 spots. Leaving aside the Pyramids. We got tuilips in holland, Cherry Blossoms in Japan, Crystal clear water in the Maldives, the Rainbow mountain in peru, Maderia, and...
Well you get the point. Lots of out of way places that relatively no one has heard of OR standard tourist tropes. I'm shocked they didn't put in the Eiffel Tower.
Personally, I think one tropical beach is just like another. One Rocky mountain is just like another, and crytal clear water can be found in the caribbean and the med. And I don't need to travel to see tulips or Cherry Blossoms.
I've heard different stories of Eygpt. Some are horror stories of beggers, crime, and tourist traps. Others say its their favorite place.
I've ridden a single humper and a double humper.
The double humper was fine.
The single humper was horrible. It had a saddle that felt like welded angle iron covered with a thin blanket. I couldn't wait to get off that camel. It was like riding a doghouse through an earthquake. My tailbone's still mad about what I put it through.
My father's WWII scrapbooks have a lot of photos of Cairo and the Pyramids from the ground and the air, including a couple that show him and some fellow officers on various beasts--camels, donkeys, and horses--posed at the Pyramids.
In one, everything looks normal, but in the next the Americans and the Egyptian beast-minders have switched head cover. All the Americans sport fezzes, while some of the locals are wearing fifty-mission crushes. (Seems reckless to me--no telling what kind of skin diseases they could have had.)
This was in June 1945, so my father would have been one of few Americans who had been there--or to Athens. He took other R&R on Capri, and the Riviera.
He was one of the two on camels, and also brought back little stone replicas of the Sphinx and Pyramids, ideal as paperweights.
He never left the country after coming home; I don't think he even flew anywhere after that.
MadTownGuy said...
Start in St John Newfoundland.
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