Here's the article, in the London Times.
Comments from the Brotherhood of the Macarena: “This isn’t her; this isn’t the Virgin of Seville. It’s sad. My heart is about to burst out... They should have left her as she was.” And: “I came to see her because everyone in my family has been crying all day about it.”
I know, you're thinking about that dance, the Macarena. Or are you thinking about the "Monkey Christ"?
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87 comments:
They're trying to make her hot.
Why not an OnlyFans page? Seems to work for others.
I like the Egyptian style eye treatment in the middle madonna.
Gosh darn Ozempic !
As a former Catholic, - who cares? It's just a statue. They act as if it's the real thing, when it most certainly is not. It's almost as if Catholics have never read the bible regarding icons to false deities. I take my dad to Catholic church on sunday's I hate it when the one preist has everyone turn to and worship the statue of the virgin mary.
Ann is trying to get the Macarena song in everyone's head so they will be hearing it all day.
Looks like Ozempic face in the second one, Ambien face in the third one. Where do they find these 'restorers'? Is this another case of HR being allowed to decide who's best qualified?
In the old version, the Madonna looks like a virgin. The latest version she looks freshly fucked.
Chris @7:50 - you're kidding.
Sigh. I suppose priests can be doofuses too (I mean, I've known several who were)... but one hopes at least they can get their theology right. Technically I'm Anglo-Catholic, I suppose, having been received into the Episcopal church when I got married (and, over the summer, am thinking hard about that thanks to the inane comments of the American Episcopal church about the South African refugees), but I say a rosary every morning as a meditation - and it bugs me to do the Hail, Holy Queen thing at the end even though at no point are you praying to Mary in it.
But my mom is quite devoted to the BVM, as female Catholics of her generation often are, I think.
They gave her gimlet eyes
She'll expose you, when she snows you
Offer feed with the crumbs she throws you
She's ferocious and she knows just what it
Takes to make a pro blush
All the boys think she's a spy, she's got Bette Davis eyes
I recently saw a film short about a small town in Mexico where 4 figures of Jesus are maintained by individual families for 1 year each (there is a 30-year waiting list to be 1 of the families). While they have the Jesus, they are responsible not only for its safety, but also for making it available to the community. For that year, their lives revolve around the figure. This has been going on for 400 years--that means 400 average citizens acting as caretaker--and all 4 Jesuses are doing just fine.
Would that the experts could be so reliable.
Correction--there are 4 Jesuses, so that's 1,600 ordinary people
My old church held an icon painting workshop for several years running, a one-week retreat of sorts in which we painted and prayed and painted and prayed. It was, every time, one of the spiritual highlights of my life thus far, especially on the third day, which we called "faces and hands day." Watching the face of Christ (or one of the saints) emerge from featureless darkness was a singular experience - I felt, very viscerally, that I really had been made in the image and likeness of God, unable to resist the urge to create being from nothingness, even though my act of creation was only a shadow.
Man, that was a good church back then.
Chris said...As a former Catholic, - who cares? It's just a statue.
"I don't care so nobody else is allowed to care." How about you fuck off? You clearly have no idea what's going on with these icons and, since you don't care, you should stay out of it.
They thickened her eyelashes and that made her eyes look half shut. She seems less engaged, less intelligent. I see those half-closed eyes on models and influencers all the time. It's a way to express vulnerability and availability.
Next time they’ll let AI fix it.
The left one is the original? It looks plastic. It is actually pretty good at showing reflections as if the face was acrylic. The last one looks more like a painting, but I agree that the eyes look, well I’ll take Althouse description. Also too much make-up.
"tim maguire said...
Chris said...As a former Catholic, - who cares? It's just a statue.
"I don't care so nobody else is allowed to care." How about you fuck off? You clearly have no idea what's going on with these icons and, since you don't care, you should stay out of it."
You sound just like my mentally ill sister, and a icon worshiper.
Oh, Maron...
I see those half-closed eyes on models and influencers all the time. It's a way to express vulnerability and availability.
Holy carp! I've been doing it wrong...
The Brotherhood of the Macarena
Of course I'm going to think of the dance, and an entirely male parade squad performing that terpsichorean monstrosity during a "pride month" bacchanal.
The Virgin of the Macarena was strange-looking even before that porno makeover -- eyes too big for a human face, mouth too small. As an objet d'art, it's rather second-class. As a Catholic effigy, it's also nothing special. The Brotherhood made a regrettable decision when they commissioned the restoration, but it looks to me that they are attempting to shift the blame. I'm willing to bet someone's idiot cousin got that contract over a more qualified expert in Late Renaissance Spanish sculpture.
"Macarena", the name, comes from the Arabic name for one of the principal city gates of Sevilla, the Bab-al-Makrin (Puerta de la Macarena), which still exists, or the barrio (neighborhood) gave its name to the gate. Who knows, this all goes back over a thousand years. I love Sevilla.
"... when the one preist[sic] has everyone turn to and worship the statue of the virgin mary."
And here is likely yet another improperly catechised, former Catholic. "Worship" verses venerate - some don't understand the difference, and it's important. I'd like to know exactly what this priest's "worship" words are.
Of course, if he belongs to the Association of US Catholic Priests (AUSCP), they’re pretty heretical although "worshipping" Mary isn't where their heresy usually expresses itself.
can't art restorers have some reference, why we can't have nice things,
you have 2,000 years of doctrine, and they still get it wrong,
one is reminded of the character gabriel allon, who is a talented art restorer and a former? Mossad operative, at this point he is a former director, of the Institute,
the author seems less focused on the Israeli conflict and more on the Ukraine one,
Howard said...She'll expose you, when she snows you....she's got Bette Davis eyes
Thanks, that'll change the tunes in our heads!
I never got the point of that song, in part because I didn't associate it with kim carnes
It turns out that Macarena was once an arrabal (suburb) of Sevilla, outside the city wall, and so probably gave its name to the gate, and to the image of the virgin. Sevilla is a seriously ancient place. The most famous arrabal is Triana, across the Guadalquivir, also ancient. When we are in Sevilla we stay there at an old friends home, along the river back somwhat past the callejón de la Inquisición - Inquisition Alley.
Allon would have tried to restore the original not improve it.
Howard is on a roll! New coffee? Cold plunge? Raw eggs?
he knows his limitations, but we see a similar example with that grand guignol Mona Lisa, mamma mia,
"As a former Catholic, - who cares? It's just a statue."
I care about statues.
Seems a lot of people do these days. But in that negative way where they want to destroy them. Those of us who oppose the destruction are treated as if we support the beliefs that led to the creation of the statue. As if only white supremacists would demonstrate in favor of the statues of Confederate generals in Charlottesville.
Chris @7:50
I don't think it has anything to do with Catholics in particular. Try changing anything that's been around for a long time, and there will be complaints from someone in the community. What else do older / retired people have to do besides find something to complain about ? :)
Jeepers Creepers where'd you get those peepers????
She's always being spotted in burnt toast anyway.
The last one looks like she put on some makeup to cover up some bruises after being slapped around.
Ann said ..."I care about statues."
Yes. And what statue was taken down in Madison? A fucking rock too to placate the snowflakes.
Hans Christian Heg, an abolitionist. Which proves the university is admitting retards.
To my eyes:
#1: Looks like a distorted mannequin and not realistic, but typical of Italian art from the Rennaissance into the 20th century. She mainly looks frightened, but a bit cartoonish and ballooned out.
#2: Quite young, per the smaller and rounder chin. She'd be age 30 at most in that era. The long eyelashes...half a night club "come and get it" look and half Egyptian. Face of after-sex relaxation? Not conventional Italian art.
#3: This is the most realistic portrayal of sadness, worry, and tears by far. The gauntness and darker skin makes her look older too, as perhaps 45 to 50 years old -- as expected at the time of the crucifixion.
Monkey Christ is a lot more fun though.
I know it's in Spain, but Rome is in Italy and set this style.
For Catholics, Mary is not just Jesus' mother, she's our mother, too. We turn to her with our trials, knowing that she has felt deep sorrow and can comfort us. She is beloved to us.
However, we don't worship her, nor any of the other saints. We contemplate them and ask for their intervention. How artists choose to portray the saints, whether by sculpture or icon writing, is interesting and revealing.
Never trust anyone who says "As a X". Usually they're just liars. Anyway, as a Former Lesbian Communist, I support the statue, and think its great.
Here’s a better link to the Macarena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGIr4Mq_4C8
I'm sure the "Former Catholic" would also be in favor of tearing down the "wailing wall" in Jerusalem. After all, its just a bunch of stones (or bricks).
The one on the right is the most sensitive one. The one on the left has a deer in the headlights look.
In the original she looks like she just saw a ghost.
Mary, The Virgin of Seville?
Here lies the body of Mary Lee; died at the age of a hundred and three. For fifteen years she kept her virginity; not a bad record for this vicinity.
- Quint, Jaws 1975
At least they didn't the modern turn-up at the outside, like I see so much these days.
"Look what they've done to my song."
"Quite young, per the smaller and rounder chin. She'd be age 30 at most in that era."
And that's a problem with all votive images of a sorrowing Mary, she's far too young. According to tradition, Jesus was around 33 years old when he was executed. His mother's age at his birth isn't given, but basic biology would lead us to believe she wasn't a baby herself. (check out Lina Medina, who gave birth to a healthy son at age 5 years, 7 months, and 21 days in 1939) More likely Mary was 13 or 14, a typical age for wedded girls in 1st century Judea, so she was in her mid-forties when she wept over her son's corpse, IOWs, getting elderly by the reckoning of the times.
Girls were married off so young because infant mortality was so high and childhood diseases were so deadly. A woman might endure a dozen pregnancies to have one descendant live to adulthood. (psst, don't tell the proglodytes... let 'em go extinct)
"And that's a problem with all votive images of a sorrowing Mary, she's far too young."
As the Immaculate Conception, Mary may not have visibly aged the way other humans do.
They could have puffed up her lips for that non-canonical duck face.
I was just this morning pondering how I wish I could have a religious faith. Then I read this thread, and this comment in particular "As the Immaculate Conception, Mary may not have visibly aged the way other humans do." and I realize that I simply do not have it in me to believe, even though I wish I did.
Reading Mere Christianity made me really appreciate the teachings of Christianity, but the arguments in favor of belief made by CS Lewis just pushed me further away from any sort of faith. I guess I'm just stuck with ignorant agnosticism.
Wince said...
Mary, The Virgin of Seville?
Here lies the body of Mary Lee; died at the age of a hundred and three. For fifteen years she kept her virginity; not a bad record for this vicinity.
- Quint, Jaws 1975
"Now by my maidenhead at twelve year old"
- the nurse in "Romeo and Juliet"
@Old and Slow: ""As the Immaculate Conception, Mary may not have visibly aged the way other humans do." and I realize that I simply do not have it in me to believe, even though I wish I did."
That's partly why the Christian Protestants broke off from the Roman Catholics and "idolatry" a good 500 years ago (plus, see Islam's avoidance of human imagery). See Martin Luther and all that followed. See the plain white interiors of Swiss churches, as purged of Roman influence. See how the first 150 years of US politics routinely attacked the "crowned heads of Europe who bow down to the Pope." This attitude softened only with JFK in the 1960s.
Virgin of Mascara.
Why not make her b/Black?
“I don’t care if it rains or freezes,
long as I got the plastic Jesus,
sitting on the dashboard of my car.
Going 90, it ain’t scary,
‘cuz I got the Virgin Mary,
sittin’ on the dashboard of my car.
...
I am in the backseat sinnin’
Trump is up there grinnin’
sittin’ on the dashboard of my car.”
Daughter sent me the version by “Allison Young & Joshua Lee Turner - Plastic Jesus.”
Heart goes out to Brotherhood of the Macarena. Hope they see better days. From bunker busters to fuck to Virgin Mary, nuthouse around here.
Not sure yet if I like or dislike the new Virgin. Not quite the made-up lashes of Dame Judi Dench as Mistress Quickly, cinching up her open skirt strings after attending Sir John Falstaff upstairs. Long live Dame Judi.
My mind immediately went to the Monkey Christ. Which, by the way, never ceases to get a chuckle out of me. Sometimes an out loud burst of laughter. It was a horrible thing, yet a hilarious thing at the same time.
In the original version, Our Lady, under one of her titles— Our Lady of Sorrows— looks out at us in her sorrows, for as Kate has said, she is mother to all of us, since Christ gave her to us from the cross (saying to John— “this is your mother”). Her gaze is outward.
In the next two iterations, she looks downward…big difference, and bad theology to boot. Our Lady weeps not for herself, but for us “daughters of Jerusalem” and our children.
"As the Immaculate Conception, Mary may not have visibly aged the way other humans do."
Yes, I understand that is a point of faith, a subject that ought not to be raised in a venue such as this, being contentious and beyond the reach of unquestionable evidence. Christians have spent two millennia arguing with and occasionally burning each other over these finer points of faith and settled nothing.
As I interpret the Althouse tags the topic here is art, not dogma. Art historians have discussed and researched the matter of the adolescent appearance of Mary, and the consensus explanation has nothing to do with speculations regarding immaculate conception. Rather, it has everything to do with two goddesses who were widely venerated in the early imperial period when Christianity was gaining a foothold in Italy, specifically Minerva and to a lesser extent Isis. As immortals both figures were blessed with eternal youth, and in the case of Minerva, eternal virginity as well. Biblical scholars believe Mary was promoted to near-divine status from the the minor figure presented in the gospels as a replacement for those merciful and comforting divinities of pagan belief. Jesus Himself got a similar treatment in early Christian iconography. Instead of the bearded Hebrew of later centuries, 2nd and 3rd century representations often picture Christ as vigorous and muscular youth not unlike Apollo or Dionysus. The earliest depiction is an insulting grafito showing a crucified man with a donkey's head being hailed by guard or Roman soldier with the caption "ΑλΕξΑΜΕΝΟϹ ϹεΒΕΤΕ θΕΩΝ", believed to mean Alexamenos worships [his] God.
As for doctrine about Christ's mother, I point out that the word in Isaiah 7:14 often translated as virgin is almah, literally a young woman suitable for marriage, and not necessarily a virgin. (Almah has been used in the context of a young widow, someone unlikely to be a virgin.) The Hebrew meaning virgin, as in a woman or girl without experience of intercourse, is betula, which isn't used in Isaiah.
walter writes, "Why not make her b/Black?"
the Poles beat you to it.
This rendition is often used for holy cards, the addition of angels with stereotypical Polish appearance.
https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server700/85f95/products/12178/images/30068/810-223__31768.1542392307.500.750.jpg?c=2
The first image reminds me a lot of a girl I knew in high school. She was a Portuguese immigrant, so maybe not so far removed from Seville. There were a lot of girls in the class that the boys thought were "hotter", but that girl gave off one of the most powerful motherhood vibes I've ever encountered. I think nearly every boy who knew her had a serious crush on her.
I came to see her because everyone in my family has been crying all day about it.
Get a grip. Geez.
What is it about people of no faith that must denigrate and/or castigate those of faith. While the best description concerning me would be an agnostic atheist, I've always found Christians, who live their faith, to be much "happier" with life than most others.
If you are referring to my comment about faith, I thought it was obvious that I was not denigrating believers. I anything, I wish that I had such a belief. I just can't imagine having it.
Thank you for explaining Mariology, Kate.
Statues of the Virgin Mary usually have two qualities that have now been altered in this case, though the Macarena statue isn't a very good example to use for these qualities in the first place.
First, the eyes do not face directly out but are either downcast or slightly irregular in their gaze (as they were here, and the biggest loss), common methods for offering the sense of being all-encompassing, humble, and sympathetic, though the method may be used to express different emotions too.
Second, the face is ideally both placid and mournful (except in statues of Mary holding and delighting in the infant or child Christ). This represents her love and submission to her son's sacrifice and signifies the peace of Christ and strength of his human mother. This, too, has been lost. It is central to true Mariology.
No matter what you might feel about Mariology, I find it a disgrace to disfigure such a significant and beloved statue. There is no excuse for not finding competent restorers.
My grandmother was an "amateur" sculptor of great talent who won many contests for small cash prizes (a common activity of her era) and even had a bas relief of JFK minted into an official coin. She designed the original White Shoulders perfume bottle holder in another contest. She'd win $25 or $50 at best. She didn't see herself as an artist: she believed her hands were inspired directly by Christ.
You know, as artists like Mondigliani, Johnny Depp, and countless others found inspiration of one sort or another flowing through them. Fools and the ignorant today dumbly worship only the latter, while her faith produced disciplined life and art.
Her's was also a product of Sunday Sauce stirred for hours, and that greasy blackish clay I haven't seen in years.
Old and Slow, you sometimes inspire me. You are thoughtful, an instrument of peace, if you'll excuse the reference.
Quaestor, there isn't room here to discuss the differences between representation of the Virgin Mary and pagan goddesses, and I'll just leave it at that, but to say don't believe everything you learn from pagans in college: I was taught the entire Renaissance with little to no reference to Christianity.
Another side of the Holy Mother
Does anyone else get Kate Middleton vibes from the new version?
My mind immediately went to the Monkey Christ. Which, by the way, never ceases to get a chuckle out of me. Sometimes an out loud burst of laughter. It was a horrible thing, yet a hilarious thing at the same time.
"Mr. Bean" come to life.
Tina Trent, nor is there space here to discuss the genetic fallacy, something else I learned from my professors whose spiritual beliefs were irrelevant and left off the syllabi, as are mine.
You get that notion in william manchesters tome on the Renaissance, that is very derisive of anything that came after,
They all look OK to me, BWDIK? Isn't it a matter of artist's conception anyway?
That is very kind of Tina Trent.
"of you" I seem to have trouble typing all the words that I'm thinking...
Only tangentially relevant but I saw so and so tweet this morning that he had read a real ('young', ahem) historian who seemed to think that because the Latin Church required the use of unleavened bread for the confection of the Most Blessed Sacrament 'in the Middle Ages' that this (somehow) also meant that Catholics regarded all unleavened bread as worthy of worship. I found this incredibly hard to credit but the fellow on X is himself a serious historian (and not a Catholic).
La Virgen de la Macarena with Arturo Sandoval and John Williams leading the Boston Pops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUzzQszOlss
Quaestor, presentism is a folly of a faith system. It is also actively destructive in teaching art history, history, and politics. If the objective of teaching is relaying the factual basis of the pre-contemporary world, the practice of teaching is to relay the mores and values and consequences of the era, not one's own narcissistic projection upon it. Ironically, even the New Criticism movement knew that.
Enigma, far too many "protestants" fall for their own egos, or those of other mortals, replacing faith with pride.
Certainly not all. But, glass houses...
@Tina Trent regarding Protestants and Catholics: I'm merely a messenger talking about the ideologies and politics of that era. I'm NOT stating my personal religious views (which differ from Christian Protestants).
Many, many Protestants and Catholics ("Kill them all, God will know his own") have been evil dirtbags, but most reject the iconography of Roman Catholicism and avoid the Virgin Mary stuff. In US history, Protestants have favored Jesus and contemporary "prophets" with porported "revealed truths" that cause their new church to supplant the older one (see Islam's take on Christianity and Judaism too). This ideology resulted in the Mormons/LDS, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Christian Scientists, and more. It's sort of a religious version of the young left in politics fully rejecting their closest allies and elders (AOC, Hogg, Mamdami, etc.).
@Old and Slow: Given your comments about rationality in religion, I think you'd end up in Christian Science if you joined anything. They have "reading rooms" and consider a balanced understanding of news to be an imperative. They publish decent news content: the Christian Science Monitor.
https://www.csmonitor.com/
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